Is this a 50 team with JB as #1?

[DefenseWinsChamps]

One thing that history proves is that when you trade an all-star for lesser players, you always win the trade and are a better team for it.

 

[Vermont Green]

Hard to keep the debate of whether Tatum and Brown can play together going after making the finals and now being the best team in the league for 25% of the season.  They seem to fit better than any other teammates in the league right now.  I guess there are a lot of bad fits in the league.

I think it would be slightly more ideal if either Brown or Tatum were paired with an all star level big over a second wing.  But the list of bigs at that level that would play with enough ball movement to actually be a better fit is really short.  We are not better with John Collins over Brown for example.  He is simply not good enough.  Maybe Towns over Brown but his defense isn't great so that is not a for sure.  Embiid?  Anthony Davis?  Yeah maybe those guys.  Even Jokic, he is a better individual player than Brown but do you really think he would be a better fit next to Tatum?  I am not so sure.

I keep going back to Jordan and Pippen.  They were two wings.  They played just fine together.  Would Jordan have been even better with say Karl Malone?  Maybe but who cares?  "Fit" was not an issue with Pippen and Jordan.  They won titles.

[blink]

Hard to keep the debate of whether Tatum and Brown can play together going after making the finals and now being the best team in the league for 25% of the season.  They seem to fit better than any other teammates in the league right now.

That pretty much sums it up for me.  +1

[Moranis]

Hard to keep the debate of whether Tatum and Brown can play together going after making the finals and now being the best team in the league for 25% of the season.  They seem to fit better than any other teammates in the league right now.  I guess there are a lot of bad fits in the league.

I think it would be slightly more ideal if either Brown or Tatum were paired with an all star level big over a second wing.  But the list of bigs at that level that would play with enough ball movement to actually be a better fit is really short.  We are not better with John Collins over Brown for example.  He is simply not good enough.  Maybe Towns over Brown but his defense isn't great so that is not a for sure.  Embiid?  Anthony Davis?  Yeah maybe those guys.  Even Jokic, he is a better individual player than Brown but do you really think he would be a better fit next to Tatum?  I am not so sure.

I keep going back to Jordan and Pippen.  They were two wings.  They played just fine together.  Would Jordan have been even better with say Karl Malone?  Maybe but who cares?  "Fit" was not an issue with Pippen and Jordan.  They won titles.

playing together and being a good fit are no where near the same thing.  nuance seems to be a real problem with this board.  Tatum and Brown are both mega talented players, they are in their prime, they are going to be able to win a lot of games together, but winning the 16 they need to win at the end of the year is where fit can matter a great deal.  It is where maximizing the talent and skill of your best and most important player come into play.  For as good as Brown is, Tatum is the guy that has to play at an elite level for Boston to win the title.  Tatum is the guy that if you can squeeze that extra 1% out of, can mean the difference between winning a championship or not. 

The issue isn't about them being wings, I think plenty of wings would fit better next to Tatum than Brown does, it is about style of play, impact, positioning, etc.  Brown doesn't bring the best out of Tatum, and Tatum is the guy we need the best from to win titles.

[blink]

Hard to keep the debate of whether Tatum and Brown can play together going after making the finals and now being the best team in the league for 25% of the season.  They seem to fit better than any other teammates in the league right now.  I guess there are a lot of bad fits in the league.

I think it would be slightly more ideal if either Brown or Tatum were paired with an all star level big over a second wing.  But the list of bigs at that level that would play with enough ball movement to actually be a better fit is really short.  We are not better with John Collins over Brown for example.  He is simply not good enough.  Maybe Towns over Brown but his defense isn't great so that is not a for sure.  Embiid?  Anthony Davis?  Yeah maybe those guys.  Even Jokic, he is a better individual player than Brown but do you really think he would be a better fit next to Tatum?  I am not so sure.

I keep going back to Jordan and Pippen.  They were two wings.  They played just fine together.  Would Jordan have been even better with say Karl Malone?  Maybe but who cares?  "Fit" was not an issue with Pippen and Jordan.  They won titles.

playing together and being a good fit are no where near the same thing.  nuance seems to be a real problem with this board.  Tatum and Brown are both mega talented players, they are in their prime, they are going to be able to win a lot of games together, but winning the 16 they need to win at the end of the year is where fit can matter a great deal.  It is where maximizing the talent and skill of your best and most important player come into play.  For as good as Brown is, Tatum is the guy that has to play at an elite level for Boston to win the title. Tatum is the guy that if you can squeeze that extra 1% out of, can mean the difference between winning a championship or not. 

The issue isn't about them being wings, I think plenty of wings would fit better next to Tatum than Brown does, it is about style of play, impact, positioning, etc.  Brown doesn't bring the best out of Tatum, and Tatum is the guy we need the best from to win titles.

The bolded is just so completely non-sensical is makes me laugh.  Both JB and JT are going to need to be playing at an elite level for us to win the title.  I can't fathom what makes you think that Jaylen Brown's play doesn't contribute to our chances of winning a title.  You just over and over again marginalize JB's contributions.  He is #13 in PPG in the NBA right now.  Do you not think that Tatum benefits from having another elite scorer on the team? 

It isn't all about JT.  Basketball is a team sport, if we want to win a title EVERYONE is going to have to play better.  For example: Smart, Brown, and Tatum averaged over 10 turnovers a game in the finals.  They all averaged over 3 TO each so they are all to blame. Cutting that to 7 or 8 a game might have won us the title.  JT being 1% better isn't going to do it by himself.  The whole TEAM has to play better. 

[jmen788]

Before the season began I would not have thought so. I would have said if Tatum goes down for an extended period (or wasn’t a Celtic at all) we’re toast, but the way the bench has steadily grown into their roles; and the way JB has improved his game as well, I think this is a 48-52 win team without Tatum. (Caveat- Timelord is playing and playing well).

It would mean more Brogdon, which would push JB into taking over Tatum’s role, just with less ball handling since Malcom would help Smart with that and Payton would be getting more minutes too.

Of course, Timelord isn’t healthy, Brogdon might break down with the extra work load, and so might JB. It would take everyone having just minimal injuries, but I think this team has enough talent even without JT to be a 50 win team.

Edit to clarify - The starting 5 would be:

R Williams
A Horford
J Brown
M Brogdon
M Smart

Thankfully we have JT and Timelord is coming back, which looks like a 60 win team to me.

No, not a 50 win team without Jayson Tatum. JB would get more attention & less open looks for others.

[Who]

I was watching an old Antonio McDyess game today and he was reminding me of Jaylen in some ways. McDyess was having a breakout season after the 2000 Olympics averaging 21ppg 12rpg (50% FG%) for the Denver Nuggets. His team only went 40-42 despite having some good players around him in Van Exel, LaFrentz, Posey and Voshon Lenard. Not much depth but some with McCloud and Keon Clark / Kevin Willis.

Antonio McDyess was a very good individual player but he didn't improve his teammates around him that. His offense had a mix of strong post play, face up drives, jump-shooting, PnR, transition offense. A versatile well rounded scorer. Despite this, he was largely a non-passer. Dice averaged only 2.1apg against 16.6 FGA and 6.2 FTAs or 2.1apg to 2.3 turnovers a game. Neither are good numbers. So he was unable to bring his teammates into the game and create easy opportunities for them. So while he got his, he did not help his teammates get easier hoops. This capped his impact on offense at a lower level.

McDyess was an above average defender as well. Very athletic. Strong and quick. Probably a more aware help defender than Jaylen. But he was more a cog in the machine than a defensive quarterback / guy you build a defense around similar to Jaylen.

Anyway, I just liked the comparison between the two players. Strengths, weaknesses, similarities. How McDyess fared as a leading man on a typical team young franchise (hopeful) stars end up on.

[gouki88]

I was watching an old Antonio McDyess game today and he was reminding me of Jaylen in some ways. McDyess was having a breakout season after the 2000 Olympics averaging 21ppg 12rpg (50% FG%) for the Denver Nuggets. His team only went 40-42 despite having some good players around him in Van Exel, LaFrentz, Posey and Voshon Lenard. Not much depth but some with McCloud and Keon Clark / Kevin Willis.

Antonio McDyess was a very good individual player but he didn't improve his teammates around him that. His offense had a mix of strong post play, face up drives, jump-shooting, PnR, transition offense. A versatile well rounded scorer. Despite this, he was largely a non-passer. Dice averaged only 2.1apg against 16.6 FGA and 6.2 FTAs or 2.1apg to 2.3 turnovers a game. Neither are good numbers. So he was unable to bring his teammates into the game and create easy opportunities for them. So while he got his, he did not help his teammates get easier hoops. This capped his impact on offense at a lower level.

McDyess was an above average defender as well. Very athletic. Strong and quick. Probably a more aware help defender than Jaylen. But he was more a cog in the machine than a defensive quarterback / guy you build a defense around similar to Jaylen.

Anyway, I just liked the comparison between the two players. Strengths, weaknesses, similarities. How McDyess fared as a leading man on a typical team young franchise (hopeful) stars end up on.

I loved Antonio McDyess

[Who]

I was watching an old Antonio McDyess game today and he was reminding me of Jaylen in some ways. McDyess was having a breakout season after the 2000 Olympics averaging 21ppg 12rpg (50% FG%) for the Denver Nuggets. His team only went 40-42 despite having some good players around him in Van Exel, LaFrentz, Posey and Voshon Lenard. Not much depth but some with McCloud and Keon Clark / Kevin Willis.

Antonio McDyess was a very good individual player but he didn't improve his teammates around him that. His offense had a mix of strong post play, face up drives, jump-shooting, PnR, transition offense. A versatile well rounded scorer. Despite this, he was largely a non-passer. Dice averaged only 2.1apg against 16.6 FGA and 6.2 FTAs or 2.1apg to 2.3 turnovers a game. Neither are good numbers. So he was unable to bring his teammates into the game and create easy opportunities for them. So while he got his, he did not help his teammates get easier hoops. This capped his impact on offense at a lower level.

McDyess was an above average defender as well. Very athletic. Strong and quick. Probably a more aware help defender than Jaylen. But he was more a cog in the machine than a defensive quarterback / guy you build a defense around similar to Jaylen.

Anyway, I just liked the comparison between the two players. Strengths, weaknesses, similarities. How McDyess fared as a leading man on a typical team young franchise (hopeful) stars end up on.

I loved Antonio McDyess

Me too.

[bdm860]

I was watching an old Antonio McDyess game today and he was reminding me of Jaylen in some ways. McDyess was having a breakout season after the 2000 Olympics averaging 21ppg 12rpg (50% FG%) for the Denver Nuggets. His team only went 40-42 despite having some good players around him in Van Exel, LaFrentz, Posey and Voshon Lenard. Not much depth but some with McCloud and Keon Clark / Kevin Willis.

Antonio McDyess was a very good individual player but he didn't improve his teammates around him that. His offense had a mix of strong post play, face up drives, jump-shooting, PnR, transition offense. A versatile well rounded scorer. Despite this, he was largely a non-passer. Dice averaged only 2.1apg against 16.6 FGA and 6.2 FTAs or 2.1apg to 2.3 turnovers a game. Neither are good numbers. So he was unable to bring his teammates into the game and create easy opportunities for them. So while he got his, he did not help his teammates get easier hoops. This capped his impact on offense at a lower level.

McDyess was an above average defender as well. Very athletic. Strong and quick. Probably a more aware help defender than Jaylen. But he was more a cog in the machine than a defensive quarterback / guy you build a defense around similar to Jaylen.

Anyway, I just liked the comparison between the two players. Strengths, weaknesses, similarities. How McDyess fared as a leading man on a typical team young franchise (hopeful) stars end up on.

I loved Antonio McDyess

Me too.

The whole McDyess free agency situation remains one of my favorite weird stories.

Denver trades McDyess to PHX then one year later McDyess chooses Denver in free agency (a similar situation happened in MLB with Kenny Lofton in CLE).

That to me is just such a head scratcher. Like if the Celtics trade away Jaylen Brown this coming off season, but then sign him in free agency the following year. You'd probably be asking yourself why Boston traded him away in the first place and also why Jaylen would want to come back after being traded away.

Then there's the Suns players flying in a blizzard to try to stop McDyess from signing back with Denver while he ws at a hockey game, only for the Nuggets GM to tell security not to let the Suns players in the building. Scandalous.

[Sophomore]

Tatum is better than Brown, and if you take away a top-five player like Tatum the team will not be as good. Agreed.

But people saying the team’s offense would die without Tatum I don’t agree with. I mean, they put up 113 points *in three quarters* against the Wizards the other night with Tatum riding the pine. Washington isn’t a garbage defense; they’re middle of the pack.

Replace Tatum with a league-average starting wing and this is still a very good team. I doubt they’re a title contender, but I’ll say this: the Cs would be better than any other team that lost a top-5 player, and Brown has a lot to do with that. What would these teams be like?

Dallas without Luka; Philly without Embiid; Milwaukee without Giannis; GSW without Curry. Those teams would be a lot worse than Boston without Tatum.

[W8ting2McHale]

Tatum is better than Brown, and if you take away a top-five player like Tatum the team will not be as good.

Replace Tatum with a league-average starting wing and this is still a very good team. I doubt they’re a title contender, but I’ll say this: the Cs would be better than any other team that lost a top-5 player, and Brown has a lot to do with that. What would these teams be like?

That’s exactly how I see it. And that league average (or better) starting wing is Malcom Brogdon. We would need an athletic defensive wing to spell him and JB. Jaylen would move to Tatum’s place at 3. Sam could still get his backup minutes, but we would need someone who could play 2-3. A stronger defender than Sam and he wouldn’t need to provide much offense. If they needed more scoring from the 3-4, they could cut Jackson or Vonleh and sign Carmelo.

[Roy H.]

Tatum is better than Brown, and if you take away a top-five player like Tatum the team will not be as good.

Replace Tatum with a league-average starting wing and this is still a very good team. I doubt they’re a title contender, but I’ll say this: the Cs would be better than any other team that lost a top-5 player, and Brown has a lot to do with that. What would these teams be like?

That’s exactly how I see it. And that league average (or better) starting wing is Malcom Brogdon. We would need an athletic defensive wing to spell him and JB. Jaylen would move to Tatum’s place at 3. Sam could still get his backup minutes, but we would need someone who could play 2-3. A stronger defender than Sam and he wouldn’t need to provide much offense. If they needed more scoring from the 3-4, they could cut Jackson or Vonleh and sign Carmelo.

Let's assume it's this team:

(Timelord) / Horford / Kornet / Griffin
Horford / G. Williams / Vonleh
Brown / S. Bey / Hauser
Brogdon / White
Smart / Pritchard

50 win team?  Contender?

[slamtheking]

Tatum is better than Brown, and if you take away a top-five player like Tatum the team will not be as good.

Replace Tatum with a league-average starting wing and this is still a very good team. I doubt they’re a title contender, but I’ll say this: the Cs would be better than any other team that lost a top-5 player, and Brown has a lot to do with that. What would these teams be like?

That’s exactly how I see it. And that league average (or better) starting wing is Malcom Brogdon. We would need an athletic defensive wing to spell him and JB. Jaylen would move to Tatum’s place at 3. Sam could still get his backup minutes, but we would need someone who could play 2-3. A stronger defender than Sam and he wouldn’t need to provide much offense. If they needed more scoring from the 3-4, they could cut Jackson or Vonleh and sign Carmelo.

Let's assume it's this team:

(Timelord) / Horford / Kornet / Griffin
Horford / G. Williams / Vonleh
Brown / S. Bey / Hauser
Brogdon / White
Smart / Pritchard

50 win team?  Contender?

If Saddiq Bey is the Tatum replacement, then no to both.

I'm thinking an average starting replacement would be closer to a younger Harrison Barnes -- like 6-7 years younger.  someone that can compete against any other team without killing you on either end but not necessarily someone who's going to make the other team gameplan for them

[Moranis]

Tatum is better than Brown, and if you take away a top-five player like Tatum the team will not be as good.

Replace Tatum with a league-average starting wing and this is still a very good team. I doubt they’re a title contender, but I’ll say this: the Cs would be better than any other team that lost a top-5 player, and Brown has a lot to do with that. What would these teams be like?

That’s exactly how I see it. And that league average (or better) starting wing is Malcom Brogdon. We would need an athletic defensive wing to spell him and JB. Jaylen would move to Tatum’s place at 3. Sam could still get his backup minutes, but we would need someone who could play 2-3. A stronger defender than Sam and he wouldn’t need to provide much offense. If they needed more scoring from the 3-4, they could cut Jackson or Vonleh and sign Carmelo.

Let's assume it's this team:

(Timelord) / Horford / Kornet / Griffin
Horford / G. Williams / Vonleh
Brown / S. Bey / Hauser
Brogdon / White
Smart / Pritchard

50 win team?  Contender?

I don't think that is a 50 win team and it certainly isn't a contender.  Contenders need top 5 type talent and that team doesn't have that.  As for 50 wins, I just don't see it.  Even if Brown is good enough to be the lead dog on a 50 win team (which is debatable), I don't think that team has enough talent around him to get that sort of winning.  There isn't really another all star level talent on the team and you need probably 2 of those in addition to the top 15 type talent that is Brown. 

I mean that team certainly isn't better than Blazers with Lillard, and they've won 50 games, just 3 times topping out at 54, when they had Aldridge, Lillard, Batum, Matthews, Lopez, Mo Williams, and a rookie McCollum that played half the season.  Lillard though is better than Brown (or was in his prime) and he always had at least 1 legit all star (McCollum) or all NBA (Aldridge) player with him (that 54 win team, Aldridge was better than Lillard, and then Lillard started to emerge as the guy soon after).