Author Topic: Who wins this seven game series  (Read 2648 times)

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Re: Who wins this seven game series
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2022, 03:18:23 PM »

Offline Moranis

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You know what the 80's and today have in common with respect to PG height, a PG that was 6'10". It is not a coincidence that when Magic retired, the average heights of PG also took a nose dive.  Similarly, there is a nice upward swing that starts when Ben Simmons entered the league and which dipped back down last year when he didn't play.  Also not a coincidence that the center height went up with all of those super massive guys like Sampson, Bol, Bradley, Smits, Eaton, and into the 00's Ming and once those guys went away there was a bit of a dip, even still the average center is over 6'10" tall today.  There is still a lot of size in the league, I mean the Cavs have 3 7 footers and a 6'11" guy all in their rotation.  The Wolves are starting a 7'1" center and 6'11" PF (and probably a 6'9" SF).  Memphis starting two 6'11" big men.  The Bucks are starting a 7 foot center and a 6'11" PF.  You can go on and on.  The league isn't getting smaller, the style of play is just adjusting to less in the paint and more out of it.
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Re: Who wins this seven game series
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2022, 05:44:01 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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I thought the OP's question was, which of the two teams listed in his original post would win the series, not mix & match players as you please simply to speculate on a hundred different fantasy team scenarios.
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Re: Who wins this seven game series
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2022, 09:10:49 PM »

Offline pokeKingCurtis

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way too many players out of position on those teams.  I think you'd need to do it with actual positions

Magic, Kobe, Lebron, Mailman, Kareem

vs.

Curry, Jordan, Bird, Duncan, Wilt

Those make way more sense as teams.  Plenty of other players you could swap in or out, like Stockton for Curry, Barkley or KG for Mailman, West for Kobe, or Hakeem, Shaq, or Bill for Wilt.
More and more teams play positionless basketball. Positions aren't as clear as they used to be. In fact, I would argue you are the one using players out of position.
  • Duncan would have been a Center in today's game. Only reason he was playing at PF early in his career is cause he had to share the floor with Robinson.
  • I strongly believe Magic would have been either a PF or a Point Center in today's game, sort of like a rich man's Jokic. It is called the pace-and-space era for a reason. Teams look to run as much as possible. Magic was very mobile for his size, but modern-day guards are way more explosive. The best way to maintain a fast pace on offense with Magic running the point would have been to surround him with guards and (s)wings and use him as a big man on defense. After all, he could never stay in front of guards on defense.
  • LeBron is at his best when playing at small ball PF in today's game with Davis at small ball Center.
  • Likewise, Bird would have been at his best at PF in the modern game. I would argue he would have been better suited at PF even in the 80s. Only reason he was playing at SF was he had to share the floor with McHale and Parish.
  • I bet Karl Malone would have been a Center. He was certainly strong enough to defend opposing Centers. Chances are he would have been even more lethal as a roll man in the modern game.
Ben Simmons is a PG.  He is basically a lesser version of Magic.  I just don't buy the premise that someone that handled and distributed like Magic would have been anything other than a PG. 

And yet there Boston was with 6'8" Tatum at SF and 6'6" Brown at SG basically all season long.  Teams don't play position less ball.  It is a fallacy.  Just because the Warriors got away with at times a smaller lineup (though Durant is a 7 footer and Klay has good size at 6'6"), doesn't mean that is how the game is played by most teams.  It isn't.  And even the Warriors start an actual center in Looney (and it will be 7 foot Wiseman this year). 

Look at the Nuggets this year.  6'11" Jokic, 6'10" Porter, 6'8" Gordon along with a 6'3" pg in Murray and probably 6'5" KCP at SG.  They are huge.  The Sixers have good size.  The Warriors are big everywhere except Draymond.  Phoenix and Denver are big. 

Just because the game has drifted more to the 3 point shot, doesn't mean that size and positions don't matter.  They do.  Kobe would be a SG guard today, because that is what his skill set was always suited for (he'd be a slightly bigger Klay Thompson).  Lebron is a SF at his peak.  He plays more PF today because he has lost a step and can't keep up with most wings at the same level.
No, he isn't. I would argue it's rather obvious at this point. He was forced to play on the ball in Philly cause they couldn't use him as a screener+roller alongside a dominant low post scorer in Embiid. The way I see it, Simmons is a rich man's Bam Adebayo. He's a better ball handler, passer and perimeter defender. Bam is a better rim protector, although not by much.

We disagree on pretty much everything you said. Plenty of teams run a switch-heavy defensive scheme which means they use oversized guards and undersized bigs (look no further than the C's). KCP at 6'5'' is a terrific switchable wing. A 7-foot+ behemoth is unplayable unless he's an elite-level talent. Looney is 6' 8'' w/o shoes. In what universe is he an ''actual Center''? Regarding Wiseman, he's a defensive liability. More often than not, being a 7-footer is a disadvantage in the modern game, simply because you'll get run off the court.

LeBron was playing primarily at PF in 2013 and 2014. This was before the emergence of the pace-and-space era. He was definitely at his prime at the time.
and yet the average height in the league has been 6'6" or 6'7" every year since 1963.  The big guys are all still in the league, they just have shifted outside more.
Average height is gradually declining since the 80s with a slight fluctuation in the early 00s.



Again, switching defense requires oversized guards and undersized bigs. Check the graphs yourself.

The guards are getting bigger since the emergence of the pace-and-space era.


The bigs are getting smaller.


Seems to me 2 6'6-6'8 stars are a good fit for this era

Re: Who wins this seven game series
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2022, 09:56:27 PM »

Offline Big333223

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I thought the OP's question was, which of the two teams listed in his original post would win the series, not mix & match players as you please simply to speculate on a hundred different fantasy team scenarios.
I'm also a little confused because that's what I thought, too.

Of the two teams in the OP, the first team definitely wins. The second team would have no chance of defending the first team.

Or are we supposed to come up with a team to beat that first team? If I can't use players from the first team, I'd go with something like:

Hakeem
Garnett
Bird
Kawhi
Kidd

Switch everything. They'll try to pick on Bird but with Hakeem and Garnett behind him, he can be physical out on the perimeter. On offense, Kidd is running the show and making sure everyone gets the ball where they're the most dangerous.
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Re: Who wins this seven game series
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2022, 04:06:55 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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I thought the OP's question was, which of the two teams listed in his original post would win the series, not mix & match players as you please simply to speculate on a hundred different fantasy team scenarios.
I'm also a little confused because that's what I thought, too.

Of the two teams in the OP, the first team definitely wins. The second team would have no chance of defending the first team.

Or are we supposed to come up with a team to beat that first team? If I can't use players from the first team, I'd go with something like:

Hakeem
Garnett
Bird
Kawhi
Kidd

Switch everything. They'll try to pick on Bird but with Hakeem and Garnett behind him, he can be physical out on the perimeter. On offense, Kidd is running the show and making sure everyone gets the ball where they're the most dangerous.



 Just so we are clear a team with Bird, Magic, Kareem, Hakeem and anyone else most likely wins against anyone.

Re: Who wins this seven game series
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2022, 04:15:09 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I thought the OP's question was, which of the two teams listed in his original post would win the series, not mix & match players as you please simply to speculate on a hundred different fantasy team scenarios.
I'm also a little confused because that's what I thought, too.

Of the two teams in the OP, the first team definitely wins. The second team would have no chance of defending the first team.

Or are we supposed to come up with a team to beat that first team? If I can't use players from the first team, I'd go with something like:

Hakeem
Garnett
Bird
Kawhi
Kidd

Switch everything. They'll try to pick on Bird but with Hakeem and Garnett behind him, he can be physical out on the perimeter. On offense, Kidd is running the show and making sure everyone gets the ball where they're the most dangerous.



 Just so we are clear a team with Bird, Magic, Kareem, Hakeem and anyone else most likely wins against anyone.
I'd take Wilt, Bill, Lebron, and Jordan and take you on just fine. 
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Re: Who wins this seven game series
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2022, 04:18:46 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Wilt and LeBron are the same type of player physical specimens who were great players who dominated their eras and filled up the stat boxes but came up short in championships

Re: Who wins this seven game series
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2022, 05:25:49 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Wilt and LeBron are the same type of player physical specimens who were great players who dominated their eras and filled up the stat boxes but came up short in championships

Four titles (with three franchises) is still quite respectable, though. 


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Re: Who wins this seven game series
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2022, 06:03:57 PM »

Offline Big333223

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I thought the OP's question was, which of the two teams listed in his original post would win the series, not mix & match players as you please simply to speculate on a hundred different fantasy team scenarios.
I'm also a little confused because that's what I thought, too.

Of the two teams in the OP, the first team definitely wins. The second team would have no chance of defending the first team.

Or are we supposed to come up with a team to beat that first team? If I can't use players from the first team, I'd go with something like:

Hakeem
Garnett
Bird
Kawhi
Kidd

Switch everything. They'll try to pick on Bird but with Hakeem and Garnett behind him, he can be physical out on the perimeter. On offense, Kidd is running the show and making sure everyone gets the ball where they're the most dangerous.



 Just so we are clear a team with Bird, Magic, Kareem, Hakeem and anyone else most likely wins against anyone.
I actually think if would be a disaster for them against the Shaq/Lebron/Kobe/Jordan/Curry team. Terrible matchup.

Wade is the only guy with a whisper of a chance at chasing Curry around, so he has to guard Curry. The only possible matchup for Kareem is Shaq.

That means that Hakeem Olajuwon, maybe the best defender of all time, if stuck guarding one of the all time great perimeter scorers. A mismatch for him, personally, and you're taking your best shot blocker away from the rim.

It also means that Bird and Magic are going to have to guard someone much faster and much more athletic and every time Kareem comes over to help, it's lob city because Shaq is maybe the best finisher of all time.

Offensively, the Wade/Magic/Bird/Kareem/Hakeem team only has one guy who can reliably shoot. The paint is going to be packed meaning Shaq, the biggest, strongest player on the floor, is never too far away from the play.

That's how I see it.
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Re: Who wins this seven game series
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2022, 06:18:32 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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I thought the OP's question was, which of the two teams listed in his original post would win the series, not mix & match players as you please simply to speculate on a hundred different fantasy team scenarios.
I'm also a little confused because that's what I thought, too.

Of the two teams in the OP, the first team definitely wins. The second team would have no chance of defending the first team.

Or are we supposed to come up with a team to beat that first team? If I can't use players from the first team, I'd go with something like:

Hakeem
Garnett
Bird
Kawhi
Kidd

Switch everything. They'll try to pick on Bird but with Hakeem and Garnett behind him, he can be physical out on the perimeter. On offense, Kidd is running the show and making sure everyone gets the ball where they're the most dangerous.



 Just so we are clear a team with Bird, Magic, Kareem, Hakeem and anyone else most likely wins against anyone.
I actually think if would be a disaster for them against the Shaq/Lebron/Kobe/Jordan/Curry team. Terrible matchup.

Wade is the only guy with a whisper of a chance at chasing Curry around, so he has to guard Curry. The only possible matchup for Kareem is Shaq.

That means that Hakeem Olajuwon, maybe the best defender of all time, if stuck guarding one of the all time great perimeter scorers. A mismatch for him, personally, and you're taking your best shot blocker away from the rim.

It also means that Bird and Magic are going to have to guard someone much faster and much more athletic and every time Kareem comes over to help, it's lob city because Shaq is maybe the best finisher of all time.

Offensively, the Wade/Magic/Bird/Kareem/Hakeem team only has one guy who can reliably shoot. The paint is going to be packed meaning Shaq, the biggest, strongest player on the floor, is never too far away from the play.

That's how I see it.


 I hear your points, but who's guarding Kareem the best scorer in the history of Basketball? Who guards Hakeem who was unguardable? Lebron?

 Who guards Bird? Or Magic? Kareem and Hakeem were the greatest shot blockers of all time.  They will erase many mistakes anywhere near the rim.

 So the perimeter players maim job is to stop open three's and outside of Curry not exactly knock down three point shooters.

 So that means the way to beat them is the most in efficient shot in Basketball the deep two.

 That's how I see it.

Re: Who wins this seven game series
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2022, 10:46:03 PM »

Offline Big333223

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I thought the OP's question was, which of the two teams listed in his original post would win the series, not mix & match players as you please simply to speculate on a hundred different fantasy team scenarios.
I'm also a little confused because that's what I thought, too.

Of the two teams in the OP, the first team definitely wins. The second team would have no chance of defending the first team.

Or are we supposed to come up with a team to beat that first team? If I can't use players from the first team, I'd go with something like:

Hakeem
Garnett
Bird
Kawhi
Kidd

Switch everything. They'll try to pick on Bird but with Hakeem and Garnett behind him, he can be physical out on the perimeter. On offense, Kidd is running the show and making sure everyone gets the ball where they're the most dangerous.



 Just so we are clear a team with Bird, Magic, Kareem, Hakeem and anyone else most likely wins against anyone.
I actually think if would be a disaster for them against the Shaq/Lebron/Kobe/Jordan/Curry team. Terrible matchup.

Wade is the only guy with a whisper of a chance at chasing Curry around, so he has to guard Curry. The only possible matchup for Kareem is Shaq.

That means that Hakeem Olajuwon, maybe the best defender of all time, if stuck guarding one of the all time great perimeter scorers. A mismatch for him, personally, and you're taking your best shot blocker away from the rim.

It also means that Bird and Magic are going to have to guard someone much faster and much more athletic and every time Kareem comes over to help, it's lob city because Shaq is maybe the best finisher of all time.

Offensively, the Wade/Magic/Bird/Kareem/Hakeem team only has one guy who can reliably shoot. The paint is going to be packed meaning Shaq, the biggest, strongest player on the floor, is never too far away from the play.

That's how I see it.


 I hear your points, but who's guarding Kareem the best scorer in the history of Basketball? Who guards Hakeem who was unguardable? Lebron?

 Who guards Bird? Or Magic? Kareem and Hakeem were the greatest shot blockers of all time.  They will erase many mistakes anywhere near the rim.

 So the perimeter players maim job is to stop open three's and outside of Curry not exactly knock down three point shooters.

 So that means the way to beat them is the most in efficient shot in Basketball the deep two.

 That's how I see it.

Who guards Bird and Magic? Jordan and Kobe. Two excellent perimeter defenders who are much faster, much more athletic, and not giving up anything in strength. Bird and Magic are two of the 5 best players of all time but they're both at big physical disadvantages.

The Hakeem/Kareem question is the only actual question. Lebron has to guard one of those guys and that'll be a problem but since Shaq doesn't have to worry about the outside shooting of whoever he's guarding, he's never far away from helping and because Bird is the only dangerous outside shooter, there will be help options.

Since we're talking about all time greats, there are no great options but the first team has options. The second team doesn't have any.
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Re: Who wins this seven game series
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2022, 11:06:42 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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I thought the OP's question was, which of the two teams listed in his original post would win the series, not mix & match players as you please simply to speculate on a hundred different fantasy team scenarios.
I'm also a little confused because that's what I thought, too.

Of the two teams in the OP, the first team definitely wins. The second team would have no chance of defending the first team.

Or are we supposed to come up with a team to beat that first team? If I can't use players from the first team, I'd go with something like:

Hakeem
Garnett
Bird
Kawhi
Kidd

Switch everything. They'll try to pick on Bird but with Hakeem and Garnett behind him, he can be physical out on the perimeter. On offense, Kidd is running the show and making sure everyone gets the ball where they're the most dangerous.



 Just so we are clear a team with Bird, Magic, Kareem, Hakeem and anyone else most likely wins against anyone.
I actually think if would be a disaster for them against the Shaq/Lebron/Kobe/Jordan/Curry team. Terrible matchup.

Wade is the only guy with a whisper of a chance at chasing Curry around, so he has to guard Curry. The only possible matchup for Kareem is Shaq.

That means that Hakeem Olajuwon, maybe the best defender of all time, if stuck guarding one of the all time great perimeter scorers. A mismatch for him, personally, and you're taking your best shot blocker away from the rim.

It also means that Bird and Magic are going to have to guard someone much faster and much more athletic and every time Kareem comes over to help, it's lob city because Shaq is maybe the best finisher of all time.

Offensively, the Wade/Magic/Bird/Kareem/Hakeem team only has one guy who can reliably shoot. The paint is going to be packed meaning Shaq, the biggest, strongest player on the floor, is never too far away from the play.

That's how I see it.


 I hear your points, but who's guarding Kareem the best scorer in the history of Basketball? Who guards Hakeem who was unguardable? Lebron?

 Who guards Bird? Or Magic? Kareem and Hakeem were the greatest shot blockers of all time.  They will erase many mistakes anywhere near the rim.

 So the perimeter players maim job is to stop open three's and outside of Curry not exactly knock down three point shooters.

 So that means the way to beat them is the most in efficient shot in Basketball the deep two.

 That's how I see it.

Who guards Bird and Magic? Jordan and Kobe. Two excellent perimeter defenders who are much faster, much more athletic, and not giving up anything in strength. Bird and Magic are two of the 5 best players of all time but they're both at big physical disadvantages.

The Hakeem/Kareem question is the only actual question. Lebron has to guard one of those guys and that'll be a problem but since Shaq doesn't have to worry about the outside shooting of whoever he's guarding, he's never far away from helping and because Bird is the only dangerous outside shooter, there will be help options.

Since we're talking about all time greats, there are no great options but the first team has options. The second team doesn't have any.
I agree with you plus I don't think Lebron in his prime would be that big of an issue on defense.  He was a good defender and he weighs as much as Hakeem and more than Kareem.  He'd also probably be the 5th option on offense on that team. 

I also think Shaq would dominate Kareem.  He was very athletic in his prime and would outweigh Kareem by 70+ lbs.