Fun LeBron Fact of the Month

[Yuckabuck33]

Since we're talking Lebron...



Not just better, but far better.

curious who "they" are.  probably people who've never seen Larry actually play

Just Michael hating on Lebron.  Par for the course.

It doesn't take bias to say Bird was better than Lebron.  Though not decisive one way or another, there is a legitimate case to be made for one over the other going both ways.

[Roy H.]

Since we're talking Lebron...



Not just better, but far better.

curious who "they" are.  probably people who've never seen Larry actually play

Just Michael hating on Lebron.  Par for the course.

It doesn't take bias to say Bird was better than Lebron.  Though not decisive one way or another, there is a legitimate case to be made for one over the other going both ways.

Yeah, if you're arguing best career, Lebron is going to win that due to longevity.  But, if it's a "top peak" argument, give me Larry.

[bdm860]

Since we're talking Lebron...



Not just better, but far better.

curious who "they" are.  probably people who've never seen Larry actually play

Just Michael hating on Lebron.  Par for the course.

One thing I've noticed over the years is Jordan is always very respectful of Bird.

I read Dream Team by Jack McCallum a few years back, and he alluded to the fact that Bird was willing to pass the torch to Jordan, while Magic wasn't, as a reason Jordan seemed to really like/respect Bird.

A quote about the same story, but different source:

“Magic wouldn’t let it go. He wouldn’t let it go. ‘We got 5 championships, me and Bird were the 80s, blah blah blah.’ Pip was there to co-sign with me that these are the 90s and there’s a new kid on the block. Magic wouldn’t let it go and Bird looked at him and went, ‘Our time is over. We just got to step aside and let them take over.’”

So you have Bird here willing to pass the torch (while Magic was still trying to prove he's the best), and then you have a lot of quotes/stories about Bird's thoughts on Jordan even in the 80's.

There's Bird's famous quote, “It’s just God disguised as Michael Jordan.” But you have other stuff like this:

"Jordan came into the league in '85, and the first night Larry played against him — I knew he (Jordan) was good — but Larry said, he said to me, he said, 'That guy is gonna be the greatest player ever, you watch,'" Shaughnessy told Damon Amendolara in an appearance on The DA Show.

"I didn't see it. He (Bird) saw it, he was out there on the floor. I didn't think it was that remarkable, he (Jordan) was a good rookie. And he (Bird) said after the game, he just said, 'You watch.' And I said, 'You're just blowing smoke' — which he never did. But he knew. First night.

So due to the respect/praise Bird has always given Jordan over the years, I think that definitely gives him a soft spot in Jordan's heart.

Had Bird said things like Jordan was just a chucker, ya he got 63 but they lost, doesn't have what it takes to win, he's not as good as me, etc. I highly doubt Jordan would be so high on Bird now.

Not to say Bird's not deserving of what Jordan just said, but you know how rivalries can play into these things, and Bird is a Jordan ally, not a rival.

[Moranis]

Since we're talking Lebron...



Not just better, but far better.

curious who "they" are.  probably people who've never seen Larry actually play

Just Michael hating on Lebron.  Par for the course.

It doesn't take bias to say Bird was better than Lebron.  Though not decisive one way or another, there is a legitimate case to be made for one over the other going both ways.

Yeah, if you're arguing best career, Lebron is going to win that due to longevity.  But, if it's a "top peak" argument, give me Larry.

Even taking their best individual season that is relatively difficult to support with the advanced metrics.  Take their age 28 seasons (Bird in 85, Lebron in 13). 

Lebron - WS 19.3, WS/48 .322, BPM 11.7, VORP 9.9, ORTG 125, DRTG 101, PER 31.6, TS% 64.0
Larry - WS 15.7, WS/48 .238, BPM 8.8, VORP 8.7, ORTG 119, DRTG 103, PER 26.5, TS% 58.5

Counting Stats
Lebron - 26.8 p, 8.0 r, 7.3 a, 1.7 s, 0.9 b, 3.0 t, 1.4 f
Larry - 28.7 p, 10.5 r, 6.6 a, 1.6 s, 1.2 b, 3.1 t, 2.6 f

Some of those aren't their career bests, but overall I would imagine most people would say those were their respective best seasons and basically all of the advanced metrics favor Lebron, though the counting stats are certainly slightly different.  They both won MVP and were obviously 1st Team All NBA, but Lebron was also 1st Team All Defense and finished 2nd in DPOY (Larry was not on the All Defense that year and received no DPOY votes).  That was the Bird's 2nd MVP of 3 straight and Lebron's 4th in 5 years.  The Heat won their second consecutive title that year, and the C's did not win, but had won in 84 and would win again in 86.    That was the year of the 2nd Heat title and the year in between the 2nd and 3rd Bird titles (they lost in 6 to the Lakers in the Finals).

I certainly understand why on a Celtics board there is an affinity for Larry over Lebron, and you could certainly make an argument for Larry at his absolute peak as being better than Lebron, but it isn't all that easy to support with actual numbers.  Either way, anyone that says Larry is "far better" than any other small forward, just isn't being honest. 

[Roy H.]

Since we're talking Lebron...



Not just better, but far better.

curious who "they" are.  probably people who've never seen Larry actually play

Just Michael hating on Lebron.  Par for the course.

It doesn't take bias to say Bird was better than Lebron.  Though not decisive one way or another, there is a legitimate case to be made for one over the other going both ways.

Yeah, if you're arguing best career, Lebron is going to win that due to longevity.  But, if it's a "top peak" argument, give me Larry.

Even taking their best individual season that is relatively difficult to support with the advanced metrics.  Take their age 28 seasons (Bird in 85, Lebron in 13). 

Lebron - WS 19.3, WS/48 .322, BPM 11.7, VORP 9.9, ORTG 125, DRTG 101, PER 31.6, TS% 64.0
Larry - WS 15.7, WS/48 .238, BPM 8.8, VORP 8.7, ORTG 119, DRTG 103, PER 26.5, TS% 58.5

Counting Stats
Lebron - 26.8 p, 8.0 r, 7.3 a, 1.7 s, 0.9 b, 3.0 t, 1.4 f
Larry - 28.7 p, 10.5 r, 6.6 a, 1.6 s, 1.2 b, 3.1 t, 2.6 f

Some of those aren't their career bests, but overall I would imagine most people would say those were their respective best seasons and basically all of the advanced metrics favor Lebron, though the counting stats are certainly slightly different.  They both won MVP and were obviously 1st Team All NBA, but Lebron was also 1st Team All Defense and finished 2nd in DPOY (Larry was not on the All Defense that year and received no DPOY votes).  That was the Bird's 2nd MVP of 3 straight and Lebron's 4th in 5 years.  The Heat won their second consecutive title that year, and the C's did not win, but had won in 84 and would win again in 86.    That was the year of the 2nd Heat title and the year in between the 2nd and 3rd Bird titles (they lost in 6 to the Lakers in the Finals).

I certainly understand why on a Celtics board there is an affinity for Larry over Lebron, and you could certainly make an argument for Larry at his absolute peak as being better than Lebron, but it isn't all that easy to support with actual numbers.  Either way, anyone that says Larry is "far better" than any other small forward, just isn't being honest.

Eh.  Larry’s stats are with three HOFers taking touches away, in an era that didn’t focus on the three, and that allowed hand-checking.

Larry Bird today is Luka Doncic with elite shooting, good defense, better rebounding and increased BBIQ.

[slamtheking]

Since we're talking Lebron...



Not just better, but far better.

curious who "they" are.  probably people who've never seen Larry actually play

Just Michael hating on Lebron.  Par for the course.

It doesn't take bias to say Bird was better than Lebron.  Though not decisive one way or another, there is a legitimate case to be made for one over the other going both ways.

Yeah, if you're arguing best career, Lebron is going to win that due to longevity.  But, if it's a "top peak" argument, give me Larry.

Even taking their best individual season that is relatively difficult to support with the advanced metrics.  Take their age 28 seasons (Bird in 85, Lebron in 13). 

Lebron - WS 19.3, WS/48 .322, BPM 11.7, VORP 9.9, ORTG 125, DRTG 101, PER 31.6, TS% 64.0
Larry - WS 15.7, WS/48 .238, BPM 8.8, VORP 8.7, ORTG 119, DRTG 103, PER 26.5, TS% 58.5

Counting Stats
Lebron - 26.8 p, 8.0 r, 7.3 a, 1.7 s, 0.9 b, 3.0 t, 1.4 f
Larry - 28.7 p, 10.5 r, 6.6 a, 1.6 s, 1.2 b, 3.1 t, 2.6 f

Some of those aren't their career bests, but overall I would imagine most people would say those were their respective best seasons and basically all of the advanced metrics favor Lebron, though the counting stats are certainly slightly different.  They both won MVP and were obviously 1st Team All NBA, but Lebron was also 1st Team All Defense and finished 2nd in DPOY (Larry was not on the All Defense that year and received no DPOY votes).  That was the Bird's 2nd MVP of 3 straight and Lebron's 4th in 5 years.  The Heat won their second consecutive title that year, and the C's did not win, but had won in 84 and would win again in 86.    That was the year of the 2nd Heat title and the year in between the 2nd and 3rd Bird titles (they lost in 6 to the Lakers in the Finals).

I certainly understand why on a Celtics board there is an affinity for Larry over Lebron, and you could certainly make an argument for Larry at his absolute peak as being better than Lebron, but it isn't all that easy to support with actual numbers.  Either way, anyone that says Larry is "far better" than any other small forward, just isn't being honest.

Eh.  Larry’s stats are with three HOFers taking touches away, in an era that didn’t focus on the three, and that allowed hand-checking.

Larry Bird today is Luka Doncic with elite shooting, good defense, better rebounding and increased BBIQ.

pretty much this. 

another point for Bird --> Team ball was in full swing in the 80's.  Everyone got involved which included Kevin Mchale to a heavy extent when he was on the floor and he was a well-known blackhole on offense.  There's really no one that watched Bird play that doesn't think he couldn't have racked up a lot more scoring if he so chose.  I don't put a lot of weight in stats when comparing Bird to others because he sacrificed his game and didn't pile on the stats. 

Lebron has always been deferred to by all his teammates.  could he have scored more, probably, but not to the extent that Larry could have increased his scoring output.  Then throw in the fact that Larry as the undefeated 3-point champion in the all-star contest didn't shoot nearly as many 3's as players have done the past 10-15 years and it's helped Lebron add to his totals. 

I've seen both of their careers.  I'll take Larry without hesitation.

[Kernewek]

The point that LeBron is more of a serious challenge to MJ's legacy than Bird, rightly or wrongly, shouldn't go underestimated. Bird was probably better at his peak, but his peak was much shorter because of injuries. Sucks, but it is what it is.

[GreenlyGreeny]

If people still think LeBron is challenging MJ for GOAT, they need a reminder that it’s almost 2023 not 2013, LeBron is now almost 40 not 30, and LeBron has a LOSING record in the NBA Finals (4-5, with a big, fat bubble asterisk next to the 4). His current team will be lucky to make the playoffs.

LeBron surpassing MJ is just not happening. In fact, give it another 5-10 years I will not be surprised if the debate becomes “who’s second to GOAT?” with LeBron, Russell, Chamberlain, Kareem, Magic, Larry and Shaq all involved in the conversation (Giannis might even sneak in depending on how the next decade goes for him).

Is there anybody playing today who could possibly challenge MJ for GOAT? Maybe Wembanyama if he becomes the real deal? I doubt.

I’ve got a feeling that, like Tom Brady in the NFL and Wayne Gretzky in the NHL, Michael Jordan will be the NBA’s GOAT for the lifetime of everyone reading this message. He is not a once-in-a-generation talent, but a once-in-a-century talent, and maybe even a once-in-a-millennium talent.

[Moranis]

Since we're talking Lebron...



Not just better, but far better.

curious who "they" are.  probably people who've never seen Larry actually play

Just Michael hating on Lebron.  Par for the course.

It doesn't take bias to say Bird was better than Lebron.  Though not decisive one way or another, there is a legitimate case to be made for one over the other going both ways.

Yeah, if you're arguing best career, Lebron is going to win that due to longevity.  But, if it's a "top peak" argument, give me Larry.

Even taking their best individual season that is relatively difficult to support with the advanced metrics.  Take their age 28 seasons (Bird in 85, Lebron in 13). 

Lebron - WS 19.3, WS/48 .322, BPM 11.7, VORP 9.9, ORTG 125, DRTG 101, PER 31.6, TS% 64.0
Larry - WS 15.7, WS/48 .238, BPM 8.8, VORP 8.7, ORTG 119, DRTG 103, PER 26.5, TS% 58.5

Counting Stats
Lebron - 26.8 p, 8.0 r, 7.3 a, 1.7 s, 0.9 b, 3.0 t, 1.4 f
Larry - 28.7 p, 10.5 r, 6.6 a, 1.6 s, 1.2 b, 3.1 t, 2.6 f

Some of those aren't their career bests, but overall I would imagine most people would say those were their respective best seasons and basically all of the advanced metrics favor Lebron, though the counting stats are certainly slightly different.  They both won MVP and were obviously 1st Team All NBA, but Lebron was also 1st Team All Defense and finished 2nd in DPOY (Larry was not on the All Defense that year and received no DPOY votes).  That was the Bird's 2nd MVP of 3 straight and Lebron's 4th in 5 years.  The Heat won their second consecutive title that year, and the C's did not win, but had won in 84 and would win again in 86.    That was the year of the 2nd Heat title and the year in between the 2nd and 3rd Bird titles (they lost in 6 to the Lakers in the Finals).

I certainly understand why on a Celtics board there is an affinity for Larry over Lebron, and you could certainly make an argument for Larry at his absolute peak as being better than Lebron, but it isn't all that easy to support with actual numbers.  Either way, anyone that says Larry is "far better" than any other small forward, just isn't being honest.

Eh.  Larry’s stats are with three HOFers taking touches away, in an era that didn’t focus on the three, and that allowed hand-checking.

Larry Bird today is Luka Doncic with elite shooting, good defense, better rebounding and increased BBIQ.

Right because James wasn't playing with other HOFers including a top 5 SG in the history of the game.  In 2013, Lebron only took 17.8 shots and attempted just 3.3 3 pointers, which is obviously more than Larry's 1.6 attempts, though Bird took 22 FGA's overall.  Bird was 42.7% from 3, James was 40.6% from 3.  the real difference between them was from 2 point range though.  Bird was a very good 52.9%, but James shot an amazing 60.2% from 2.  That is why, James despite being a worse 3 point shooter and a much worse FT shooter had a significantly better TS%. 

I really don't understand the argument you are making given Bird had 22 FGA's to James' 17.8 FGA's.  The 13 Heat only took 77.4 FGA's a game, while the 85 Celtics shot 89.3.  That equates to 24.6% of the total Celtic shots for Bird and just 23.0% of the Heat shots for James.

Given the mass discrepancy in shots taken by the teams, Bird's total rebounding edge isn't even all that big on a percentage basis.  Bird grabbed 14.7% of the available rebounds that season, while James grabbed 13.1%.  And utilizing that for basically every other stat, James dwarfs Bird almost across the board.  Two of the major categories AST% 36.4 to 25.7 and STL% 2.4 to 1.9.  Bird did take a bit better care of the ball with a lesser USG, but pretty much every other category favors Lebron.  Lebron was objectively a better defender that season.  He was in fact the 2nd best defender in the sport that year as voted on by the media and was a 1st Team All Defender.  Bird wasn't even a top 10 defender in 85.  No All Defense Team and no DPOY votes. 

There really isn't an objective metric you can use that supports the argument you are making.  You have to use subjective things like BBIQ, but that seems like a very strange thing to use given Lebron is known as one of the smartest players in the sports history.