GOAT: Jordan or James?

[celticsclay]

 I have no doubts Jordan was on gear as the kids say now at some point. My point is Lebron is the "King" of Steroids in the NBA. 

 He's very gifted of course,  He's also been juiced to the gills and obviously loaded with HGH as well. He's a true science experiment.

 Can you guys imagine Larry and Magic taking massive amounts of PEDs for 20 years? The league would have been a joke for them.

The thing is that the hormone treatment like hgh, and synthetic testosterone that are available to athletes today can actually be healthy and serious medical professionals prescribe testosterone to a lot of men. The stuff that was around during the time of magic, bird and early Jordan years was basically anabolic steroids. This stuff was incredibly hard on the body including the liver and kidneys and impacted a lot of other parts of the body. Simply put you couldn’t take it for 15 years like some of the things available today. However even as rough as this stuff was their are some old wives tales being thrown around here. Anabolic steroids are not going to suddenly make you start gambling. If you are already balding it’s not going to really impact that. You also can gain a very significant amount of weight on them in a short time (like 20 pounds in 5 weeks). A normal weight lifting routine with good eating and basic supplements you can gain about 15 pounds in 4 months. (Like we have seen with Jordan and lots of other players over the year ther dedicate their offseason to a weight training routine. It’s surprising to me for how much people talk about steroids how little the average person knows what the word actually means and the different versions of them.

[nickagneta]

Lebron has always denied using roids, but as someone who knows someone who was in the Akron athletic community at the time Lebron was leaving high school/being drafted, it was pretty common knowledge that teen age Lebron was juicing.

Also, that Lebron was a good, respectful, nice kid/guy, while his mom was a complete mess and a royal ****e.

[Moranis]

Steroids were running rampant in the NFL and MLB in the 80's and 90's.  It is surprising for so many to not think they were also running rampant in the NBA in the same time.  And Jordan would absolutely fit the bill of suspicion as a user.  Lots and lots of things that people connect to the modern athlete that would have applied to Jordan using.  I'd be pretty surprised if 75% of the league didn't use some form of PED, for at least a period of time, in the late 80's and early 90's.  It is probably a lower percentage today, but it is still going to be a decent amount of players using because they quite simply work.  And they work for all sorts of things, obviously strength training but also recovery, stamina, etc.  Pretty much everyone should just assume that all of the greats used whatever methods they could to get advantages, especially when there were no downsides to the method (which steroids in the 80's and 90's fit that bill). 

[GreenlyGreeny]

MJ bulked up after winning DPOY in 1988 so he would not be bullied by The Bad Boys any longer. But he did not bulk-up in a freakish-looking way (unlike LeBron…). I’ve never suspected MJ of steroids, but I have no idea what’s up with LeBron.

Circling back to MJ, he already revealed “Michael’s Secret Stuff” and it’s perfectly natural:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kbaKze622Kg

It’s unfortunate that LeBron did not disclose “LeBron’s Secret Stuff” in the sequel?

[celticsclay]

Steroids were running rampant in the NFL and MLB in the 80's and 90's.  It is surprising for so many to not think they were also running rampant in the NBA in the same time.  And Jordan would absolutely fit the bill of suspicion as a user.  Lots and lots of things that people connect to the modern athlete that would have applied to Jordan using.  I'd be pretty surprised if 75% of the league didn't use some form of PED, for at least a period of time, in the late 80's and early 90's.  It is probably a lower percentage today, but it is still going to be a decent amount of players using because they quite simply work.  And they work for all sorts of things, obviously strength training but also recovery, stamina, etc.  Pretty much everyone should just assume that all of the greats used whatever methods they could to get advantages, especially when there were no downsides to the method (which steroids in the 80's and 90's fit that bill).

The nba actually did have a really bad drug problem in the 80’s but it was cocaine and other recreational drugs, not anabolic steroids. You mix cocaine and anabolic steroids together your gonna be risking some organ failure and a whole host of other issues. The idea that have the league was partying with cocaine crack and alcohol every night and than adding in anabolic steroids that were available in the 80’s. Well we would have seen 50 players die. The bending over backward and reinventing of history cause someone is upset people accused a modern player of using steroids has been a fascinating read with steroids being to blame for gambling and hair loss that started three years before it’s use on some forum literally called “awful” in the name.

If we want have a little more relevant conversation George Karl who was around the game has also talked about this evolution if we want to not just talk nonsense. He explained the nba had a different drug problems than the 80’s when it was coke “I’m talking about performance-enhancing drugs—like steroids, human growth hormone, and so on. It’s obvious some of our players are doping. How are some guys getting older—yet thinner and fitter? How are they recovering from injuries so fast? Why the hell are they going to Germany in the offseason? I doubt it’s for the sauerkraut.
"More likely it’s for the newest, hard-to-detect blood boosters and PEDs they have in Europe. Unfortunately, drug testing always seems to be a couple steps behind drug hiding. Lance Armstrong never failed a drug test.”

[celticsclay]

MJ bulked up after winning DPOY in 1988 so he would not be bullied by The Bad Boys any longer. But he did not bulk-up in a freakish-looking way (unlike LeBron…). I’ve never suspected MJ of steroids, but I have no idea what’s up with LeBron.

Circling back to MJ, he already revealed “Michael’s Secret Stuff” and it’s perfectly natural:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kbaKze622Kg

It’s unfortunate that LeBron did not disclose “LeBron’s Secret Stuff” in the sequel?

Yeah Obviously none of us actually know if jordan did use steroids at some point, but the argument about him gaining 15 pounds over a 4 month period as being some crazy gain is very poorly informed about nutrition or fitness if it is your full time job. I would imagine there are hundreds of people on this forum including myself that had a similar period of gain at some point in their life if they got super into weightlifting and nutrition and a ton of free time. We are literally talking about less than a pound of muscle a week for a man weight lifting for the first time in his life with a professional trainer and vast financial resources in his mid 20’s.

[Moranis]

MJ bulked up after winning DPOY in 1988 so he would not be bullied by The Bad Boys any longer. But he did not bulk-up in a freakish-looking way (unlike LeBron…). I’ve never suspected MJ of steroids, but I have no idea what’s up with LeBron.

Circling back to MJ, he already revealed “Michael’s Secret Stuff” and it’s perfectly natural:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kbaKze622Kg

It’s unfortunate that LeBron did not disclose “LeBron’s Secret Stuff” in the sequel?

Yeah Obviously none of us actually know if jordan did use steroids at some point, but the argument about him gaining 15 pounds over a 4 month period as being some crazy gain is very poorly informed about nutrition or fitness if it is your full time job. I would imagine there are hundreds of people on this forum including myself that had a similar period of gain at some point in their life if they got super into weightlifting and nutrition and a ton of free time. We are literally talking about less than a pound of muscle a week for a man weight lifting for the first time in his life with a professional trainer and vast financial resources in his mid 20’s.

Were you a MVP and DPOY at the time?

[gouki88]

MJ bulked up after winning DPOY in 1988 so he would not be bullied by The Bad Boys any longer. But he did not bulk-up in a freakish-looking way (unlike LeBron…). I’ve never suspected MJ of steroids, but I have no idea what’s up with LeBron.

Circling back to MJ, he already revealed “Michael’s Secret Stuff” and it’s perfectly natural:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kbaKze622Kg

It’s unfortunate that LeBron did not disclose “LeBron’s Secret Stuff” in the sequel?

Yeah Obviously none of us actually know if jordan did use steroids at some point, but the argument about him gaining 15 pounds over a 4 month period as being some crazy gain is very poorly informed about nutrition or fitness if it is your full time job. I would imagine there are hundreds of people on this forum including myself that had a similar period of gain at some point in their life if they got super into weightlifting and nutrition and a ton of free time. We are literally talking about less than a pound of muscle a week for a man weight lifting for the first time in his life with a professional trainer and vast financial resources in his mid 20’s.

It is mostly unheard of for professional athletes to gain so much weight (in muscle) that deep into their career. I can't think of any off the top of my head. Not sure it works as a comparison to everyday people like you or I clay.

They're all juicin, it just works best for those with the best work ethic like MJ and Bron

[celticsclay]

MJ bulked up after winning DPOY in 1988 so he would not be bullied by The Bad Boys any longer. But he did not bulk-up in a freakish-looking way (unlike LeBron…). I’ve never suspected MJ of steroids, but I have no idea what’s up with LeBron.

Circling back to MJ, he already revealed “Michael’s Secret Stuff” and it’s perfectly natural:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kbaKze622Kg

It’s unfortunate that LeBron did not disclose “LeBron’s Secret Stuff” in the sequel?

Yeah Obviously none of us actually know if jordan did use steroids at some point, but the argument about him gaining 15 pounds over a 4 month period as being some crazy gain is very poorly informed about nutrition or fitness if it is your full time job. I would imagine there are hundreds of people on this forum including myself that had a similar period of gain at some point in their life if they got super into weightlifting and nutrition and a ton of free time. We are literally talking about less than a pound of muscle a week for a man weight lifting for the first time in his life with a professional trainer and vast financial resources in his mid 20’s.

Were you a MVP and DPOY at the time?

Moranis is the crux of your argument that it is impossible to gain like .75 pounds of muscle a week for 4 months if you start working with a trainer and weight lifting for the first time in your life with no 9-5 job? This seems like an incredibly strange hill to die on. This is very common knowledge that is readily available all over the Internet. Here is a pretty major blog saying 2-4 a month for a basic beginner.

https://fitbod.me/blog/muscle-gain-in-a-month/

You have also thrown in very other odd unfounded/inaccurate commentary from some deep web forum suggesting he started gambling, lost his hair (despite very obvious pictures of balding before this including one in this thread) and strangest of all played for one of the dirtiest minor league teams of all time even though it was a mediocre baseball team with few major league prospects managed by pretty well respected Terry Francona.

I know you have kind of dug yourself into a hole here and are very stubborn, but you are just arguing basic nutrition and fitness at this point and frankly I don’t know how else to respond?

[celticsclay]

MJ bulked up after winning DPOY in 1988 so he would not be bullied by The Bad Boys any longer. But he did not bulk-up in a freakish-looking way (unlike LeBron…). I’ve never suspected MJ of steroids, but I have no idea what’s up with LeBron.

Circling back to MJ, he already revealed “Michael’s Secret Stuff” and it’s perfectly natural:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kbaKze622Kg

It’s unfortunate that LeBron did not disclose “LeBron’s Secret Stuff” in the sequel?

Yeah Obviously none of us actually know if jordan did use steroids at some point, but the argument about him gaining 15 pounds over a 4 month period as being some crazy gain is very poorly informed about nutrition or fitness if it is your full time job. I would imagine there are hundreds of people on this forum including myself that had a similar period of gain at some point in their life if they got super into weightlifting and nutrition and a ton of free time. We are literally talking about less than a pound of muscle a week for a man weight lifting for the first time in his life with a professional trainer and vast financial resources in his mid 20’s.

It is mostly unheard of for professional athletes to gain so much weight (in muscle) that deep into their career. I can't think of any off the top of my head. Not sure it works as a comparison to everyday people like you or I clay.

They're all juicin, it just works best for those with the best work ethic like MJ and Bron

Gouki there are certainly a lot of players that have gained 15 pounds of muscle over a 4 month offseason, and you also have to remember that jordan famously has said, and none of his teammates have ever refuted, that he had basically never lifted a weight in his life before that summer. I know you are actually arguing in good faith here and not bringing in nonsense, so I can probably dig up some examples if you still believe this is unheard of for someone that has never lifted weights before.

[nickagneta]

MJ bulked up after winning DPOY in 1988 so he would not be bullied by The Bad Boys any longer. But he did not bulk-up in a freakish-looking way (unlike LeBron…). I’ve never suspected MJ of steroids, but I have no idea what’s up with LeBron.

Circling back to MJ, he already revealed “Michael’s Secret Stuff” and it’s perfectly natural:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kbaKze622Kg

It’s unfortunate that LeBron did not disclose “LeBron’s Secret Stuff” in the sequel?

Yeah Obviously none of us actually know if jordan did use steroids at some point, but the argument about him gaining 15 pounds over a 4 month period as being some crazy gain is very poorly informed about nutrition or fitness if it is your full time job. I would imagine there are hundreds of people on this forum including myself that had a similar period of gain at some point in their life if they got super into weightlifting and nutrition and a ton of free time. We are literally talking about less than a pound of muscle a week for a man weight lifting for the first time in his life with a professional trainer and vast financial resources in his mid 20’s.

It is mostly unheard of for professional athletes to gain so much weight (in muscle) that deep into their career. I can't think of any off the top of my head. Not sure it works as a comparison to everyday people like you or I clay.

They're all juicin, it just works best for those with the best work ethic like MJ and Bron

Gouki there are certainly a lot of players that have gained 15 pounds of muscle over a 4 month offseason, and you also have to remember that jordan famously has said, and none of his teammates have ever refuted, that he had basically never lifted a weight in his life before that summer. I know you are actually arguing in good faith here and not bringing in nonsense, so I can probably dig up some examples if you still believe this is unheard of for someone that has never lifted weights before.

I know Tatum seemed to get big during one off-season. Not sure of the weight gain part, but it was obvious he added a whole bunch of muscle bulk in his upper body.

Steroids? Or just so happened he got a professional trainer and worked out like crazy on a great diet for four months.

[gouki88]

MJ bulked up after winning DPOY in 1988 so he would not be bullied by The Bad Boys any longer. But he did not bulk-up in a freakish-looking way (unlike LeBron…). I’ve never suspected MJ of steroids, but I have no idea what’s up with LeBron.

Circling back to MJ, he already revealed “Michael’s Secret Stuff” and it’s perfectly natural:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kbaKze622Kg

It’s unfortunate that LeBron did not disclose “LeBron’s Secret Stuff” in the sequel?

Yeah Obviously none of us actually know if jordan did use steroids at some point, but the argument about him gaining 15 pounds over a 4 month period as being some crazy gain is very poorly informed about nutrition or fitness if it is your full time job. I would imagine there are hundreds of people on this forum including myself that had a similar period of gain at some point in their life if they got super into weightlifting and nutrition and a ton of free time. We are literally talking about less than a pound of muscle a week for a man weight lifting for the first time in his life with a professional trainer and vast financial resources in his mid 20’s.

It is mostly unheard of for professional athletes to gain so much weight (in muscle) that deep into their career. I can't think of any off the top of my head. Not sure it works as a comparison to everyday people like you or I clay.

They're all juicin, it just works best for those with the best work ethic like MJ and Bron

Gouki there are certainly a lot of players that have gained 15 pounds of muscle over a 4 month offseason, and you also have to remember that jordan famously has said, and none of his teammates have ever refuted, that he had basically never lifted a weight in his life before that summer. I know you are actually arguing in good faith here and not bringing in nonsense, so I can probably dig up some examples if you still believe this is unheard of for someone that has never lifted weights before.

I guess it's possible (insert KG), I just don't doubt the lengths Jordan would go to for victory.

[celticsclay]

MJ bulked up after winning DPOY in 1988 so he would not be bullied by The Bad Boys any longer. But he did not bulk-up in a freakish-looking way (unlike LeBron…). I’ve never suspected MJ of steroids, but I have no idea what’s up with LeBron.

Circling back to MJ, he already revealed “Michael’s Secret Stuff” and it’s perfectly natural:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kbaKze622Kg

It’s unfortunate that LeBron did not disclose “LeBron’s Secret Stuff” in the sequel?

Yeah Obviously none of us actually know if jordan did use steroids at some point, but the argument about him gaining 15 pounds over a 4 month period as being some crazy gain is very poorly informed about nutrition or fitness if it is your full time job. I would imagine there are hundreds of people on this forum including myself that had a similar period of gain at some point in their life if they got super into weightlifting and nutrition and a ton of free time. We are literally talking about less than a pound of muscle a week for a man weight lifting for the first time in his life with a professional trainer and vast financial resources in his mid 20’s.

It is mostly unheard of for professional athletes to gain so much weight (in muscle) that deep into their career. I can't think of any off the top of my head. Not sure it works as a comparison to everyday people like you or I clay.

They're all juicin, it just works best for those with the best work ethic like MJ and Bron

Gouki there are certainly a lot of players that have gained 15 pounds of muscle over a 4 month offseason, and you also have to remember that jordan famously has said, and none of his teammates have ever refuted, that he had basically never lifted a weight in his life before that summer. I know you are actually arguing in good faith here and not bringing in nonsense, so I can probably dig up some examples if you still believe this is unheard of for someone that has never lifted weights before.

I know Tatum seemed to get big during one off-season. Not sure of the weight gain part, but it was obvious he added a whole bunch of muscle bulk in his upper body.

Steroids? Or just so happened he got a professional trainer and worked out like crazy on a great diet for four months.

Durant was obviously younger but he gained 12-14 pounds between predraft and his rookie year from what I have read. As long as you are under like 28. If you have never lifted weights you really can pack on some muscle pretty quick in the beginning. It’s actually a pretty cool feeling for people that have never tried it. (Though it is some of the worst soreness of your life the first few times after doing squats or deadlifts heavy). I’m starting to understand how people can get so demoralized about making fitness changes if they think that a change like this is impossible over a 4 month period in your twenties with a trainer and endless money for food.

[celticsclay]

MJ bulked up after winning DPOY in 1988 so he would not be bullied by The Bad Boys any longer. But he did not bulk-up in a freakish-looking way (unlike LeBron…). I’ve never suspected MJ of steroids, but I have no idea what’s up with LeBron.

Circling back to MJ, he already revealed “Michael’s Secret Stuff” and it’s perfectly natural:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kbaKze622Kg

It’s unfortunate that LeBron did not disclose “LeBron’s Secret Stuff” in the sequel?

Yeah Obviously none of us actually know if jordan did use steroids at some point, but the argument about him gaining 15 pounds over a 4 month period as being some crazy gain is very poorly informed about nutrition or fitness if it is your full time job. I would imagine there are hundreds of people on this forum including myself that had a similar period of gain at some point in their life if they got super into weightlifting and nutrition and a ton of free time. We are literally talking about less than a pound of muscle a week for a man weight lifting for the first time in his life with a professional trainer and vast financial resources in his mid 20’s.

It is mostly unheard of for professional athletes to gain so much weight (in muscle) that deep into their career. I can't think of any off the top of my head. Not sure it works as a comparison to everyday people like you or I clay.

They're all juicin, it just works best for those with the best work ethic like MJ and Bron

Gouki there are certainly a lot of players that have gained 15 pounds of muscle over a 4 month offseason, and you also have to remember that jordan famously has said, and none of his teammates have ever refuted, that he had basically never lifted a weight in his life before that summer. I know you are actually arguing in good faith here and not bringing in nonsense, so I can probably dig up some examples if you still believe this is unheard of for someone that has never lifted weights before.

I guess it's possible (insert KG), I just don't doubt the lengths Jordan would go to for victory.

Gouki here is another one that was pretty easy to find (and don’t really believe many think Davis did a steroid cycle)

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2556402-anthony-davis-bulks-up-adds-12-pounds-of-muscle-ahead-of-2015-16-season

[Moranis]

MJ bulked up after winning DPOY in 1988 so he would not be bullied by The Bad Boys any longer. But he did not bulk-up in a freakish-looking way (unlike LeBron…). I’ve never suspected MJ of steroids, but I have no idea what’s up with LeBron.

Circling back to MJ, he already revealed “Michael’s Secret Stuff” and it’s perfectly natural:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kbaKze622Kg

It’s unfortunate that LeBron did not disclose “LeBron’s Secret Stuff” in the sequel?

Yeah Obviously none of us actually know if jordan did use steroids at some point, but the argument about him gaining 15 pounds over a 4 month period as being some crazy gain is very poorly informed about nutrition or fitness if it is your full time job. I would imagine there are hundreds of people on this forum including myself that had a similar period of gain at some point in their life if they got super into weightlifting and nutrition and a ton of free time. We are literally talking about less than a pound of muscle a week for a man weight lifting for the first time in his life with a professional trainer and vast financial resources in his mid 20’s.

It is mostly unheard of for professional athletes to gain so much weight (in muscle) that deep into their career. I can't think of any off the top of my head. Not sure it works as a comparison to everyday people like you or I clay.

They're all juicin, it just works best for those with the best work ethic like MJ and Bron

Gouki there are certainly a lot of players that have gained 15 pounds of muscle over a 4 month offseason, and you also have to remember that jordan famously has said, and none of his teammates have ever refuted, that he had basically never lifted a weight in his life before that summer. I know you are actually arguing in good faith here and not bringing in nonsense, so I can probably dig up some examples if you still believe this is unheard of for someone that has never lifted weights before.

I guess it's possible (insert KG), I just don't doubt the lengths Jordan would go to for victory.

I don't either.  His will to win was basically unmatched.  He pretty famously would use any methods that would give him even a slight advantage over an opponent.  He played in a time when steroids were running rampant through professional leagues in very large part because there was no testing, there was no media scrutiny, and basically no one cared if players were using.  Here is a guy that is the best player in the world who miraculously well into his career all of a sudden gets ripped, and yet because it is Jordan who can do no wrong, no one even thinks it was artificial.  It just doesn't make sense.  And I get that there aren't any contemporaneous articles written about it, but that is sort of the point, there was no internet and normal media didn't bite the hand that fed it.  You just weren't ever going to see a story written about steroid usage from players in that era - see also basically no stories about Jordan's gambling, adultery, etc. (see also the lack of contemporaneous football and baseball stories regarding steroids and we now know just how prevalent it was).  That just further supports why there was basically no downside risk to using steroids at the time (other than the physical risk to themselves, which players never think about). 

Again, I have no idea if Jordan used, but I'd be pretty surprised if he didn't just because I'd be pretty surprised if basically anyone from that era wasn't using (at least at points in their career).  And that doesn't alter my opinion on a player at all because I just assume they all use whatever they can to get an advantage.  In fact, I'd want the players on my teams to use whatever methods they could that didn't pose any real risk going forward (today with better testing and actual policies there is a lot more downside risk to using).