Author Topic: MLB owners vote for lockout  (Read 23576 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #60 on: March 11, 2022, 01:42:41 PM »

Online Celtics2021

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7142
  • Tommy Points: 979
So do I understand correctly, the Universal DH is adopted but the Shift Ban will only be experimental and tested in Double A?

I think the DH rule change is good.  I don't enjoy watching pitchers bunt and the whole strategy aspect is overblown.  I say about time.

As to the shift, I don't think banning shifts will improve the game.  Hitters should be able to adjust.  If a hitter slaps a few singles or doubles down the opposite field line, the defense will adjust.  Base runners are excitement.  It doesn't matter how you get on base.

Sometimes in a game the smart play is to bring an outfielder in to add an additional infielder.  9th inning, man on third, tie game, that sort of situation.  Are you going to ban that too?

There's no shift ban in MLB in 2022, but I believe that the Commissioner can impose it in 2023 if he so chooses without further player input.

But seriously, a player can't defeat this strategy?



With Verlander on the mound?  It’s tough, and defeating it probably only gets you to 1st base.
I don't know about.  A well placed bunt and you might get to 2nd base just from the shear fact there is no one able to field the ball if you get it enough past the pitcher down the 3rd base line.

But even if you only get to 1st base, you still get to 1st base and what is wrong with that.

That's my thought.  Any MLB should be able to get to first base at least 75% of the time against a shift that severe.

The shift has been around for over a decade, and a generations of hitters has proven they can’t.  I’m surprised myself, but the shift is used more every year, and hitters have decided it’s in general not worth trying to beat.  My guess is because hitting a ball traveling at 95 mph is difficult enough, and accordingly fighting muscle memory trying to aim a certain direction doesn’t have the payoff we might think it will in the abstract.

Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #61 on: March 11, 2022, 02:12:25 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9666
  • Tommy Points: 325
I'm glad for the universal DH. I know that not everyone agrees with the idea, but, as cool as it is to see the (rare) big hit from a pitcher, pitchers are usually automatic outs, and I'm sure that NL pitchers (when they pitch) get a stat boost from facing so many weak-hitting pitcher-hitters, so comparing NL pitchers to AL pitchers has been a bit unfair.

Also, having the DH be an AL-only rule has actually been an advantage to the NL team in the World Series, because the NL team, which reached the World Series without the help of a DH, suddenly gets an offensive boost for games in AL parks, whereas the AL team, which relies on the DH, suddenly has to go without one in NL parks. And in order to keep their DH in the lineup at NL parks, they need to put a guy in the field who isn't used to playing in the field. I totally understand where anti-DHers are coming from—the traditionalist "pitchers should hit" and "hitters should field" concepts, and more strategy—but I think that both leagues, at minimum, should be the same—both with DH, or both with no DH. And since I like more offense, I want the DH.
I actually think the inverse has been the case i.e. because the AL teams have a DH slot, they have a much better hitter in that role than the NL teams do and as you say it isn't like the NL pitchers who hit regularly provide much of a boost.  So the AL teams have a bigger advantage in actually staffing a DH position, while the NL teams do not staff that position and thus have a random backup in it.

I see your point, and I agree that the typical AL DH is much better than the typical "NL bench player thrown in as a DH"—AL DHs are full-time, and are usually pretty good hitters and/or sluggers.

But I think the issue goes beyond a straightforward AL vs. NL comparison; I look at it from the perspective of relative upgrade/downgrade.

NL teams are used to having an automatic out in their batting order—a pitcher who in most cases is batting below .100, so even if their DH is a mediocre bench guy—say, someone hitting .220 with 8 homers—that's a decent boost to the lineup. But AL teams depend on the DH being one of their best hitters/power guys, so removing his (in most cases) 30+ homers and .260+ average from the batting order is a big blow. They can, of course, put their DH in the field in order to keep his bat, but that's usually going to hurt their defense, and they still have to have their pitcher hit, which is going to force a regular bat out of the lineup—and even if that's a mediocre bat, it's still better than what a typical pitcher brings.

Edit: My opinion on the shift is that it's ugly, but I don't see it being an unfair advantage to the defense. If hitters aren't talented enough to hit the ball to the nearly-empty side of the field—or if they're too lazy to even try learning to do that—that's their problem, LOL.

And how do you draw the line on what a "no shift" defense looks like? Do you say that there have to be two infielders on each side of second base at all times? Because even then teams might still do a "mini shift," in which the two infielders on a given side of the field play way over in one direction or the other.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2022, 02:19:07 PM by rocknrollforyoursoul »
"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

"You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."

— C.S. Lewis

Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #62 on: March 11, 2022, 02:21:51 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 58540
  • Tommy Points: -25636
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
So do I understand correctly, the Universal DH is adopted but the Shift Ban will only be experimental and tested in Double A?

I think the DH rule change is good.  I don't enjoy watching pitchers bunt and the whole strategy aspect is overblown.  I say about time.

As to the shift, I don't think banning shifts will improve the game.  Hitters should be able to adjust.  If a hitter slaps a few singles or doubles down the opposite field line, the defense will adjust.  Base runners are excitement.  It doesn't matter how you get on base.

Sometimes in a game the smart play is to bring an outfielder in to add an additional infielder.  9th inning, man on third, tie game, that sort of situation.  Are you going to ban that too?

There's no shift ban in MLB in 2022, but I believe that the Commissioner can impose it in 2023 if he so chooses without further player input.

But seriously, a player can't defeat this strategy?



With Verlander on the mound?  It’s tough, and defeating it probably only gets you to 1st base.
I don't know about.  A well placed bunt and you might get to 2nd base just from the shear fact there is no one able to field the ball if you get it enough past the pitcher down the 3rd base line.

But even if you only get to 1st base, you still get to 1st base and what is wrong with that.

That's my thought.  Any MLB should be able to get to first base at least 75% of the time against a shift that severe.

The shift has been around for over a decade, and a generations of hitters has proven they can’t.  I’m surprised myself, but the shift is used more every year, and hitters have decided it’s in general not worth trying to beat.  My guess is because hitting a ball traveling at 95 mph is difficult enough, and accordingly fighting muscle memory trying to aim a certain direction doesn’t have the payoff we might think it will in the abstract.

Unable or unwilling?


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #63 on: March 11, 2022, 02:28:22 PM »

Online Donoghus

  • Global Moderator
  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30933
  • Tommy Points: 1607
  • What a Pub Should Be
So do I understand correctly, the Universal DH is adopted but the Shift Ban will only be experimental and tested in Double A?

I think the DH rule change is good.  I don't enjoy watching pitchers bunt and the whole strategy aspect is overblown.  I say about time.

As to the shift, I don't think banning shifts will improve the game.  Hitters should be able to adjust.  If a hitter slaps a few singles or doubles down the opposite field line, the defense will adjust.  Base runners are excitement.  It doesn't matter how you get on base.

Sometimes in a game the smart play is to bring an outfielder in to add an additional infielder.  9th inning, man on third, tie game, that sort of situation.  Are you going to ban that too?

There's no shift ban in MLB in 2022, but I believe that the Commissioner can impose it in 2023 if he so chooses without further player input.

But seriously, a player can't defeat this strategy?



With Verlander on the mound?  It’s tough, and defeating it probably only gets you to 1st base.
I don't know about.  A well placed bunt and you might get to 2nd base just from the shear fact there is no one able to field the ball if you get it enough past the pitcher down the 3rd base line.

But even if you only get to 1st base, you still get to 1st base and what is wrong with that.

That's my thought.  Any MLB should be able to get to first base at least 75% of the time against a shift that severe.

The shift has been around for over a decade, and a generations of hitters has proven they can’t.  I’m surprised myself, but the shift is used more every year, and hitters have decided it’s in general not worth trying to beat.  My guess is because hitting a ball traveling at 95 mph is difficult enough, and accordingly fighting muscle memory trying to aim a certain direction doesn’t have the payoff we might think it will in the abstract.

Unable or unwilling?

Probably a mix of both.

Purposely trying to hit to opposite field is no joke.  Especially with major league pitching coming at you.  But I'm also sure they're are guys just unwilling also.


2010 CB Historical Draft - Best Overall Team

Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2022, 02:35:02 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 58540
  • Tommy Points: -25636
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
So do I understand correctly, the Universal DH is adopted but the Shift Ban will only be experimental and tested in Double A?

I think the DH rule change is good.  I don't enjoy watching pitchers bunt and the whole strategy aspect is overblown.  I say about time.

As to the shift, I don't think banning shifts will improve the game.  Hitters should be able to adjust.  If a hitter slaps a few singles or doubles down the opposite field line, the defense will adjust.  Base runners are excitement.  It doesn't matter how you get on base.

Sometimes in a game the smart play is to bring an outfielder in to add an additional infielder.  9th inning, man on third, tie game, that sort of situation.  Are you going to ban that too?

There's no shift ban in MLB in 2022, but I believe that the Commissioner can impose it in 2023 if he so chooses without further player input.

But seriously, a player can't defeat this strategy?



With Verlander on the mound?  It’s tough, and defeating it probably only gets you to 1st base.
I don't know about.  A well placed bunt and you might get to 2nd base just from the shear fact there is no one able to field the ball if you get it enough past the pitcher down the 3rd base line.

But even if you only get to 1st base, you still get to 1st base and what is wrong with that.

That's my thought.  Any MLB should be able to get to first base at least 75% of the time against a shift that severe.

The shift has been around for over a decade, and a generations of hitters has proven they can’t.  I’m surprised myself, but the shift is used more every year, and hitters have decided it’s in general not worth trying to beat.  My guess is because hitting a ball traveling at 95 mph is difficult enough, and accordingly fighting muscle memory trying to aim a certain direction doesn’t have the payoff we might think it will in the abstract.

Unable or unwilling?

Probably a mix of both.

Purposely trying to hit to opposite field is no joke.  Especially with major league pitching coming at you.  But I'm also sure they're are guys just unwilling also.

I've got to think that if these guys spent an hour a day during the offseason practicing bunting to third base, they could do it at a highly successful rate.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #65 on: March 11, 2022, 02:44:41 PM »

Offline wdleehi

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 34023
  • Tommy Points: 1607
  • Basketball is Newtonian Physics
So do I understand correctly, the Universal DH is adopted but the Shift Ban will only be experimental and tested in Double A?

I think the DH rule change is good.  I don't enjoy watching pitchers bunt and the whole strategy aspect is overblown.  I say about time.

As to the shift, I don't think banning shifts will improve the game.  Hitters should be able to adjust.  If a hitter slaps a few singles or doubles down the opposite field line, the defense will adjust.  Base runners are excitement.  It doesn't matter how you get on base.

Sometimes in a game the smart play is to bring an outfielder in to add an additional infielder.  9th inning, man on third, tie game, that sort of situation.  Are you going to ban that too?

There's no shift ban in MLB in 2022, but I believe that the Commissioner can impose it in 2023 if he so chooses without further player input.

But seriously, a player can't defeat this strategy?



With Verlander on the mound?  It’s tough, and defeating it probably only gets you to 1st base.
I don't know about.  A well placed bunt and you might get to 2nd base just from the shear fact there is no one able to field the ball if you get it enough past the pitcher down the 3rd base line.

But even if you only get to 1st base, you still get to 1st base and what is wrong with that.

That's my thought.  Any MLB should be able to get to first base at least 75% of the time against a shift that severe.

The shift has been around for over a decade, and a generations of hitters has proven they can’t.  I’m surprised myself, but the shift is used more every year, and hitters have decided it’s in general not worth trying to beat.  My guess is because hitting a ball traveling at 95 mph is difficult enough, and accordingly fighting muscle memory trying to aim a certain direction doesn’t have the payoff we might think it will in the abstract.

Unable or unwilling?

Probably a mix of both.

Purposely trying to hit to opposite field is no joke.  Especially with major league pitching coming at you.  But I'm also sure they're are guys just unwilling also.

I've got to think that if these guys spent an hour a day during the offseason practicing bunting to third base, they could do it at a highly successful rate.


Do you think power hitters bunting is going to make the game more exciting?   

Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #66 on: March 11, 2022, 02:50:33 PM »

Online BitterJim

  • NGT
  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8912
  • Tommy Points: 1212
So do I understand correctly, the Universal DH is adopted but the Shift Ban will only be experimental and tested in Double A?

I think the DH rule change is good.  I don't enjoy watching pitchers bunt and the whole strategy aspect is overblown.  I say about time.

As to the shift, I don't think banning shifts will improve the game.  Hitters should be able to adjust.  If a hitter slaps a few singles or doubles down the opposite field line, the defense will adjust.  Base runners are excitement.  It doesn't matter how you get on base.

Sometimes in a game the smart play is to bring an outfielder in to add an additional infielder.  9th inning, man on third, tie game, that sort of situation.  Are you going to ban that too?

There's no shift ban in MLB in 2022, but I believe that the Commissioner can impose it in 2023 if he so chooses without further player input.

But seriously, a player can't defeat this strategy?



With Verlander on the mound?  It’s tough, and defeating it probably only gets you to 1st base.
I don't know about.  A well placed bunt and you might get to 2nd base just from the shear fact there is no one able to field the ball if you get it enough past the pitcher down the 3rd base line.

But even if you only get to 1st base, you still get to 1st base and what is wrong with that.

That's my thought.  Any MLB should be able to get to first base at least 75% of the time against a shift that severe.

The shift has been around for over a decade, and a generations of hitters has proven they can’t.  I’m surprised myself, but the shift is used more every year, and hitters have decided it’s in general not worth trying to beat.  My guess is because hitting a ball traveling at 95 mph is difficult enough, and accordingly fighting muscle memory trying to aim a certain direction doesn’t have the payoff we might think it will in the abstract.

While that's true, has it trickled down to lower levels (college and below)? A 24 year old would have been in high school a decade ago, and if they weren't facing any sort of shift until they got to higher levels then it's hard to say that they couldn't have learned to beat it. I think extreme shifts could push batters more toward spreading the ball around, but I don't think it'll happen overnight (or even in a few years). It'll need to have an effect on younger players (and/or scouting departments) first.
I'm bitter.

Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #67 on: March 11, 2022, 02:52:52 PM »

Online BitterJim

  • NGT
  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8912
  • Tommy Points: 1212
So do I understand correctly, the Universal DH is adopted but the Shift Ban will only be experimental and tested in Double A?

I think the DH rule change is good.  I don't enjoy watching pitchers bunt and the whole strategy aspect is overblown.  I say about time.

As to the shift, I don't think banning shifts will improve the game.  Hitters should be able to adjust.  If a hitter slaps a few singles or doubles down the opposite field line, the defense will adjust.  Base runners are excitement.  It doesn't matter how you get on base.

Sometimes in a game the smart play is to bring an outfielder in to add an additional infielder.  9th inning, man on third, tie game, that sort of situation.  Are you going to ban that too?

There's no shift ban in MLB in 2022, but I believe that the Commissioner can impose it in 2023 if he so chooses without further player input.

But seriously, a player can't defeat this strategy?



With Verlander on the mound?  It’s tough, and defeating it probably only gets you to 1st base.
I don't know about.  A well placed bunt and you might get to 2nd base just from the shear fact there is no one able to field the ball if you get it enough past the pitcher down the 3rd base line.

But even if you only get to 1st base, you still get to 1st base and what is wrong with that.

That's my thought.  Any MLB should be able to get to first base at least 75% of the time against a shift that severe.

The shift has been around for over a decade, and a generations of hitters has proven they can’t.  I’m surprised myself, but the shift is used more every year, and hitters have decided it’s in general not worth trying to beat.  My guess is because hitting a ball traveling at 95 mph is difficult enough, and accordingly fighting muscle memory trying to aim a certain direction doesn’t have the payoff we might think it will in the abstract.

Unable or unwilling?

Probably a mix of both.

Purposely trying to hit to opposite field is no joke.  Especially with major league pitching coming at you.  But I'm also sure they're are guys just unwilling also.

I've got to think that if these guys spent an hour a day during the offseason practicing bunting to third base, they could do it at a highly successful rate.


Do you think power hitters bunting is going to make the game more exciting?

It would punish and discourage extreme shifts like that, while also putting runners on base. As someone that likes to see teams putting together strings of hits... yeah, kind of.
I'm bitter.

Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #68 on: March 11, 2022, 02:55:04 PM »

Offline wdleehi

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 34023
  • Tommy Points: 1607
  • Basketball is Newtonian Physics
So do I understand correctly, the Universal DH is adopted but the Shift Ban will only be experimental and tested in Double A?

I think the DH rule change is good.  I don't enjoy watching pitchers bunt and the whole strategy aspect is overblown.  I say about time.

As to the shift, I don't think banning shifts will improve the game.  Hitters should be able to adjust.  If a hitter slaps a few singles or doubles down the opposite field line, the defense will adjust.  Base runners are excitement.  It doesn't matter how you get on base.

Sometimes in a game the smart play is to bring an outfielder in to add an additional infielder.  9th inning, man on third, tie game, that sort of situation.  Are you going to ban that too?

There's no shift ban in MLB in 2022, but I believe that the Commissioner can impose it in 2023 if he so chooses without further player input.

But seriously, a player can't defeat this strategy?



With Verlander on the mound?  It’s tough, and defeating it probably only gets you to 1st base.
I don't know about.  A well placed bunt and you might get to 2nd base just from the shear fact there is no one able to field the ball if you get it enough past the pitcher down the 3rd base line.

But even if you only get to 1st base, you still get to 1st base and what is wrong with that.

That's my thought.  Any MLB should be able to get to first base at least 75% of the time against a shift that severe.

The shift has been around for over a decade, and a generations of hitters has proven they can’t.  I’m surprised myself, but the shift is used more every year, and hitters have decided it’s in general not worth trying to beat.  My guess is because hitting a ball traveling at 95 mph is difficult enough, and accordingly fighting muscle memory trying to aim a certain direction doesn’t have the payoff we might think it will in the abstract.

Unable or unwilling?

Probably a mix of both.

Purposely trying to hit to opposite field is no joke.  Especially with major league pitching coming at you.  But I'm also sure they're are guys just unwilling also.

I've got to think that if these guys spent an hour a day during the offseason practicing bunting to third base, they could do it at a highly successful rate.


Do you think power hitters bunting is going to make the game more exciting?

It would punish and discourage extreme shifts like that, while also putting runners on base. As someone that likes to see teams putting together strings of hits... yeah, kind of.


Really?   So you are saying instead of a guy that can drive a ball and pick up two or a HR, we can have him bunt and maybe get on 1st?

That seems like the equivalent of force big time 3 point shooters into always shooting long twos. 

Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #69 on: March 11, 2022, 03:00:22 PM »

Offline slamtheking

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31869
  • Tommy Points: 10047
So do I understand correctly, the Universal DH is adopted but the Shift Ban will only be experimental and tested in Double A?

I think the DH rule change is good.  I don't enjoy watching pitchers bunt and the whole strategy aspect is overblown.  I say about time.

As to the shift, I don't think banning shifts will improve the game.  Hitters should be able to adjust.  If a hitter slaps a few singles or doubles down the opposite field line, the defense will adjust.  Base runners are excitement.  It doesn't matter how you get on base.

Sometimes in a game the smart play is to bring an outfielder in to add an additional infielder.  9th inning, man on third, tie game, that sort of situation.  Are you going to ban that too?

There's no shift ban in MLB in 2022, but I believe that the Commissioner can impose it in 2023 if he so chooses without further player input.

But seriously, a player can't defeat this strategy?



With Verlander on the mound?  It’s tough, and defeating it probably only gets you to 1st base.
I don't know about.  A well placed bunt and you might get to 2nd base just from the shear fact there is no one able to field the ball if you get it enough past the pitcher down the 3rd base line.

But even if you only get to 1st base, you still get to 1st base and what is wrong with that.

That's my thought.  Any MLB should be able to get to first base at least 75% of the time against a shift that severe.

The shift has been around for over a decade, and a generations of hitters has proven they can’t.  I’m surprised myself, but the shift is used more every year, and hitters have decided it’s in general not worth trying to beat.  My guess is because hitting a ball traveling at 95 mph is difficult enough, and accordingly fighting muscle memory trying to aim a certain direction doesn’t have the payoff we might think it will in the abstract.

Unable or unwilling?

Probably a mix of both.

Purposely trying to hit to opposite field is no joke.  Especially with major league pitching coming at you.  But I'm also sure they're are guys just unwilling also.

I've got to think that if these guys spent an hour a day during the offseason practicing bunting to third base, they could do it at a highly successful rate.


Do you think power hitters bunting is going to make the game more exciting?

It would punish and discourage extreme shifts like that, while also putting runners on base. As someone that likes to see teams putting together strings of hits... yeah, kind of.


Really?   So you are saying instead of a guy that can drive a ball and pick up two or a HR, we can have him bunt and maybe get on 1st?

That seems like the equivalent of force big time 3 point shooters into always shooting long twos.
why don't you set the ball on T for them too while you're at   ::)

Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #70 on: March 11, 2022, 03:03:49 PM »

Offline wdleehi

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 34023
  • Tommy Points: 1607
  • Basketball is Newtonian Physics
So do I understand correctly, the Universal DH is adopted but the Shift Ban will only be experimental and tested in Double A?

I think the DH rule change is good.  I don't enjoy watching pitchers bunt and the whole strategy aspect is overblown.  I say about time.

As to the shift, I don't think banning shifts will improve the game.  Hitters should be able to adjust.  If a hitter slaps a few singles or doubles down the opposite field line, the defense will adjust.  Base runners are excitement.  It doesn't matter how you get on base.

Sometimes in a game the smart play is to bring an outfielder in to add an additional infielder.  9th inning, man on third, tie game, that sort of situation.  Are you going to ban that too?

There's no shift ban in MLB in 2022, but I believe that the Commissioner can impose it in 2023 if he so chooses without further player input.

But seriously, a player can't defeat this strategy?



With Verlander on the mound?  It’s tough, and defeating it probably only gets you to 1st base.
I don't know about.  A well placed bunt and you might get to 2nd base just from the shear fact there is no one able to field the ball if you get it enough past the pitcher down the 3rd base line.

But even if you only get to 1st base, you still get to 1st base and what is wrong with that.

That's my thought.  Any MLB should be able to get to first base at least 75% of the time against a shift that severe.

The shift has been around for over a decade, and a generations of hitters has proven they can’t.  I’m surprised myself, but the shift is used more every year, and hitters have decided it’s in general not worth trying to beat.  My guess is because hitting a ball traveling at 95 mph is difficult enough, and accordingly fighting muscle memory trying to aim a certain direction doesn’t have the payoff we might think it will in the abstract.

Unable or unwilling?

Probably a mix of both.

Purposely trying to hit to opposite field is no joke.  Especially with major league pitching coming at you.  But I'm also sure they're are guys just unwilling also.

I've got to think that if these guys spent an hour a day during the offseason practicing bunting to third base, they could do it at a highly successful rate.


Do you think power hitters bunting is going to make the game more exciting?

It would punish and discourage extreme shifts like that, while also putting runners on base. As someone that likes to see teams putting together strings of hits... yeah, kind of.


Really?   So you are saying instead of a guy that can drive a ball and pick up two or a HR, we can have him bunt and maybe get on 1st?

That seems like the equivalent of force big time 3 point shooters into always shooting long twos.
why don't you set the ball on T for them too while you're at   ::)


Why can other sports change the rules but not baseball?   


Why add the breakaway foul in the NBA?   It is good defensive strategy. 

Why change the hand checking rule?   Why add the charge line under the basket?  Why add the three point line?   Why add the shot clock?   Why widen the lane?   



The point is to make the game more exciting keep viewers.  And more hits makes the game more exciting.  More baserunners makes the game more exciting. 

Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #71 on: March 11, 2022, 03:10:12 PM »

Offline slamtheking

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31869
  • Tommy Points: 10047
So do I understand correctly, the Universal DH is adopted but the Shift Ban will only be experimental and tested in Double A?

I think the DH rule change is good.  I don't enjoy watching pitchers bunt and the whole strategy aspect is overblown.  I say about time.

As to the shift, I don't think banning shifts will improve the game.  Hitters should be able to adjust.  If a hitter slaps a few singles or doubles down the opposite field line, the defense will adjust.  Base runners are excitement.  It doesn't matter how you get on base.

Sometimes in a game the smart play is to bring an outfielder in to add an additional infielder.  9th inning, man on third, tie game, that sort of situation.  Are you going to ban that too?

There's no shift ban in MLB in 2022, but I believe that the Commissioner can impose it in 2023 if he so chooses without further player input.

But seriously, a player can't defeat this strategy?



With Verlander on the mound?  It’s tough, and defeating it probably only gets you to 1st base.
I don't know about.  A well placed bunt and you might get to 2nd base just from the shear fact there is no one able to field the ball if you get it enough past the pitcher down the 3rd base line.

But even if you only get to 1st base, you still get to 1st base and what is wrong with that.

That's my thought.  Any MLB should be able to get to first base at least 75% of the time against a shift that severe.

The shift has been around for over a decade, and a generations of hitters has proven they can’t.  I’m surprised myself, but the shift is used more every year, and hitters have decided it’s in general not worth trying to beat.  My guess is because hitting a ball traveling at 95 mph is difficult enough, and accordingly fighting muscle memory trying to aim a certain direction doesn’t have the payoff we might think it will in the abstract.

Unable or unwilling?

Probably a mix of both.

Purposely trying to hit to opposite field is no joke.  Especially with major league pitching coming at you.  But I'm also sure they're are guys just unwilling also.

I've got to think that if these guys spent an hour a day during the offseason practicing bunting to third base, they could do it at a highly successful rate.


Do you think power hitters bunting is going to make the game more exciting?

It would punish and discourage extreme shifts like that, while also putting runners on base. As someone that likes to see teams putting together strings of hits... yeah, kind of.


Really?   So you are saying instead of a guy that can drive a ball and pick up two or a HR, we can have him bunt and maybe get on 1st?

That seems like the equivalent of force big time 3 point shooters into always shooting long twos.
why don't you set the ball on T for them too while you're at   ::)


Why can other sports change the rules but not baseball?   


Why add the breakaway foul in the NBA?   It is good defensive strategy. 

Why change the hand checking rule?   Why add the charge line under the basket?  Why add the three point line?   Why add the shot clock?   Why widen the lane?   



The point is to make the game more exciting keep viewers.  And more hits makes the game more exciting.  More baserunners makes the game more exciting.
you're taking a huge leap from opposing a rule against shifts to "Why can other sports change the rules but not baseball?".  some rule changes can be improvements.  this one would not be.

if a player can't counter a defensive shift in baseball, too bad.  I could care less about whiny batters who are incapable of dealing with a gimmicky defensive move.  as for your baserunner argument, what was said before would address that -- bunting where the defense isn't.  easy base hit.  of course, batters don't seem to know how to do that either right along with hitting to the opposite field.   drop a few bunts for base hits and you'll see that shift change pretty quickly. 

Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #72 on: March 11, 2022, 03:13:00 PM »

Offline wdleehi

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 34023
  • Tommy Points: 1607
  • Basketball is Newtonian Physics
So do I understand correctly, the Universal DH is adopted but the Shift Ban will only be experimental and tested in Double A?

I think the DH rule change is good.  I don't enjoy watching pitchers bunt and the whole strategy aspect is overblown.  I say about time.

As to the shift, I don't think banning shifts will improve the game.  Hitters should be able to adjust.  If a hitter slaps a few singles or doubles down the opposite field line, the defense will adjust.  Base runners are excitement.  It doesn't matter how you get on base.

Sometimes in a game the smart play is to bring an outfielder in to add an additional infielder.  9th inning, man on third, tie game, that sort of situation.  Are you going to ban that too?

There's no shift ban in MLB in 2022, but I believe that the Commissioner can impose it in 2023 if he so chooses without further player input.

But seriously, a player can't defeat this strategy?



With Verlander on the mound?  It’s tough, and defeating it probably only gets you to 1st base.
I don't know about.  A well placed bunt and you might get to 2nd base just from the shear fact there is no one able to field the ball if you get it enough past the pitcher down the 3rd base line.

But even if you only get to 1st base, you still get to 1st base and what is wrong with that.

That's my thought.  Any MLB should be able to get to first base at least 75% of the time against a shift that severe.

The shift has been around for over a decade, and a generations of hitters has proven they can’t.  I’m surprised myself, but the shift is used more every year, and hitters have decided it’s in general not worth trying to beat.  My guess is because hitting a ball traveling at 95 mph is difficult enough, and accordingly fighting muscle memory trying to aim a certain direction doesn’t have the payoff we might think it will in the abstract.

Unable or unwilling?

Probably a mix of both.

Purposely trying to hit to opposite field is no joke.  Especially with major league pitching coming at you.  But I'm also sure they're are guys just unwilling also.

I've got to think that if these guys spent an hour a day during the offseason practicing bunting to third base, they could do it at a highly successful rate.


Do you think power hitters bunting is going to make the game more exciting?

It would punish and discourage extreme shifts like that, while also putting runners on base. As someone that likes to see teams putting together strings of hits... yeah, kind of.


Really?   So you are saying instead of a guy that can drive a ball and pick up two or a HR, we can have him bunt and maybe get on 1st?

That seems like the equivalent of force big time 3 point shooters into always shooting long twos.
why don't you set the ball on T for them too while you're at   ::)


Why can other sports change the rules but not baseball?   


Why add the breakaway foul in the NBA?   It is good defensive strategy. 

Why change the hand checking rule?   Why add the charge line under the basket?  Why add the three point line?   Why add the shot clock?   Why widen the lane?   



The point is to make the game more exciting keep viewers.  And more hits makes the game more exciting.  More baserunners makes the game more exciting.
you're taking a huge leap from opposing a rule against shifts to "Why can other sports change the rules but not baseball?".  some rule changes can be improvements.  this one would not be.

if a player can't counter a defensive shift in baseball, too bad.  I could care less about whiny batters who are incapable of dealing with a gimmicky defensive move.  as for your baserunner argument, what was said before would address that -- bunting where the defense isn't.  easy base hit.  of course, batters don't seem to know how to do that either right along with hitting to the opposite field.   drop a few bunts for base hits and you'll see that shift change pretty quickly.


Bryce Harper did and they kept using the shift.

Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #73 on: March 11, 2022, 03:21:24 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 58540
  • Tommy Points: -25636
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
So do I understand correctly, the Universal DH is adopted but the Shift Ban will only be experimental and tested in Double A?

I think the DH rule change is good.  I don't enjoy watching pitchers bunt and the whole strategy aspect is overblown.  I say about time.

As to the shift, I don't think banning shifts will improve the game.  Hitters should be able to adjust.  If a hitter slaps a few singles or doubles down the opposite field line, the defense will adjust.  Base runners are excitement.  It doesn't matter how you get on base.

Sometimes in a game the smart play is to bring an outfielder in to add an additional infielder.  9th inning, man on third, tie game, that sort of situation.  Are you going to ban that too?

There's no shift ban in MLB in 2022, but I believe that the Commissioner can impose it in 2023 if he so chooses without further player input.

But seriously, a player can't defeat this strategy?



With Verlander on the mound?  It’s tough, and defeating it probably only gets you to 1st base.
I don't know about.  A well placed bunt and you might get to 2nd base just from the shear fact there is no one able to field the ball if you get it enough past the pitcher down the 3rd base line.

But even if you only get to 1st base, you still get to 1st base and what is wrong with that.

That's my thought.  Any MLB should be able to get to first base at least 75% of the time against a shift that severe.

The shift has been around for over a decade, and a generations of hitters has proven they can’t.  I’m surprised myself, but the shift is used more every year, and hitters have decided it’s in general not worth trying to beat.  My guess is because hitting a ball traveling at 95 mph is difficult enough, and accordingly fighting muscle memory trying to aim a certain direction doesn’t have the payoff we might think it will in the abstract.

Unable or unwilling?

Probably a mix of both.

Purposely trying to hit to opposite field is no joke.  Especially with major league pitching coming at you.  But I'm also sure they're are guys just unwilling also.

I've got to think that if these guys spent an hour a day during the offseason practicing bunting to third base, they could do it at a highly successful rate.


Do you think power hitters bunting is going to make the game more exciting?

It would punish and discourage extreme shifts like that, while also putting runners on base. As someone that likes to see teams putting together strings of hits... yeah, kind of.


Really?   So you are saying instead of a guy that can drive a ball and pick up two or a HR, we can have him bunt and maybe get on 1st?

That seems like the equivalent of force big time 3 point shooters into always shooting long twos.

If guys actually punished teams for the shift, they'd stop doing it.  That's why you bunt.  Because, as much as the teams fear the small chance of a HR, I expect they fear a near-guaranteed single moreso.  (The caveat here is when the best player in baseball turns into a roided up freak of nature BALCO who hits 73 HRs in 476 ABs.  Then, you probably prefer just giving him 1st base via walk.)


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: MLB owners vote for lockout
« Reply #74 on: March 11, 2022, 03:22:03 PM »

Offline slamtheking

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31869
  • Tommy Points: 10047
So do I understand correctly, the Universal DH is adopted but the Shift Ban will only be experimental and tested in Double A?

I think the DH rule change is good.  I don't enjoy watching pitchers bunt and the whole strategy aspect is overblown.  I say about time.

As to the shift, I don't think banning shifts will improve the game.  Hitters should be able to adjust.  If a hitter slaps a few singles or doubles down the opposite field line, the defense will adjust.  Base runners are excitement.  It doesn't matter how you get on base.

Sometimes in a game the smart play is to bring an outfielder in to add an additional infielder.  9th inning, man on third, tie game, that sort of situation.  Are you going to ban that too?

There's no shift ban in MLB in 2022, but I believe that the Commissioner can impose it in 2023 if he so chooses without further player input.

But seriously, a player can't defeat this strategy?



With Verlander on the mound?  It’s tough, and defeating it probably only gets you to 1st base.
I don't know about.  A well placed bunt and you might get to 2nd base just from the shear fact there is no one able to field the ball if you get it enough past the pitcher down the 3rd base line.

But even if you only get to 1st base, you still get to 1st base and what is wrong with that.

That's my thought.  Any MLB should be able to get to first base at least 75% of the time against a shift that severe.

The shift has been around for over a decade, and a generations of hitters has proven they can’t.  I’m surprised myself, but the shift is used more every year, and hitters have decided it’s in general not worth trying to beat.  My guess is because hitting a ball traveling at 95 mph is difficult enough, and accordingly fighting muscle memory trying to aim a certain direction doesn’t have the payoff we might think it will in the abstract.

Unable or unwilling?

Probably a mix of both.

Purposely trying to hit to opposite field is no joke.  Especially with major league pitching coming at you.  But I'm also sure they're are guys just unwilling also.

I've got to think that if these guys spent an hour a day during the offseason practicing bunting to third base, they could do it at a highly successful rate.


Do you think power hitters bunting is going to make the game more exciting?

It would punish and discourage extreme shifts like that, while also putting runners on base. As someone that likes to see teams putting together strings of hits... yeah, kind of.


Really?   So you are saying instead of a guy that can drive a ball and pick up two or a HR, we can have him bunt and maybe get on 1st?

That seems like the equivalent of force big time 3 point shooters into always shooting long twos.
why don't you set the ball on T for them too while you're at   ::)


Why can other sports change the rules but not baseball?   


Why add the breakaway foul in the NBA?   It is good defensive strategy. 

Why change the hand checking rule?   Why add the charge line under the basket?  Why add the three point line?   Why add the shot clock?   Why widen the lane?   



The point is to make the game more exciting keep viewers.  And more hits makes the game more exciting.  More baserunners makes the game more exciting.
you're taking a huge leap from opposing a rule against shifts to "Why can other sports change the rules but not baseball?".  some rule changes can be improvements.  this one would not be.

if a player can't counter a defensive shift in baseball, too bad.  I could care less about whiny batters who are incapable of dealing with a gimmicky defensive move.  as for your baserunner argument, what was said before would address that -- bunting where the defense isn't.  easy base hit.  of course, batters don't seem to know how to do that either right along with hitting to the opposite field.   drop a few bunts for base hits and you'll see that shift change pretty quickly.


Bryce Harper did and they kept using the shift.
so let Bryce Harper keep dropping bunts.  have a guy hitting with a high enough average with no one on base because of that shift and the other team will stop shifting because letting a guy get on base .500 on the time on bunts due to a shift is a helluva lot less effective than letting him hit .275 without the shift.