NBA 2019-2020 season thread

[Fierce1]

Theis was a backup C last year, this year he's performed at a starter level. Saying he's a backup C is like saying Brown is a backup SG because he came off the bench last year.

We have 57 games of information to consume and Theis has been a productive starter for a top 4 NBA team.

You can look it up.

Theis' production is not up to par with the starting Centers of the league right now.

Among All C who've played a lot:

Some +/- numbers
RPM he's top 10
PIPM he's top 15
RAPM at Nbashotcharts has him 78th overall (they don't let me search by position but thats easily top 20 among Cs given how many guards/forwards appear on the list)

http://bkref.com/tiny/Woxfw sorted by WS he's top 10
http://bkref.com/tiny/0G9za sorted by PER he's top 25
http://bkref.com/tiny/JHCcQ sorted by Rebound per game he's top 20

Theis straight up is easily a starting level productive center. Maybe you should "look it up" yourself before you challenge people. 

It's simple, when Kanter, Theis' backup, is averaging 8 rebounds per game game and Theis is only averaging 6.5 rebounds per game, that means your starting Center is below average.

Seriously, Theis is top 20 among Centers in the NBA and you're happy with that?

I think it's just a case of your standard is lower than mine.

So when you said 'production', you actually meant rebounds. 

This is why nobody takes you seriously.

The constant moving goalposts, hijacking threads, lack analysis on advanced metrics... at this point its a joke.

If it's a joke then why do you keep replying to my posts?

You're the one who started all this.

Check page 141 of this thread.

[fairweatherfan]

C's have the 4th best record in the NBA and the 2nd best point differential per cleaning the glass.

https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/league/summary

No doubt that the Celts are pretty good this year.

All I'm saying is if it was too much of a risk to trade Hayward, why not make a smaller move to get another big man better than Poirier or at least improve the bench.

Poirier is our 5th big man when we're healthy (Theis/Kanter/The Williamses). 4th at best. And that's with guys like Tatum and Semi eating up minutes at the 4. There's no real compelling argument for giving up value to modestly upgrade him.

I wish we'd gotten a shooter tbh but the market seemed pretty tight on them. The free agency season is exceptionally weak so teams aren't motivated to rearrange cap space.

[Fafnir]

So you say look it up, and I do.

Then suddenly its not "production" its his foul rate is too high and he's not an elite rebounder (he's 25th best rebounding center by REB% which is solid!)? You don't need to be an elite rebounder to be a starting caliber C!

Dude is a starting C and you made a strong claim and can't back it up. Shame you can't admit you were wrong like you were demanding "other posters" admit.

Sucks when people bring receipts. 

I provided you with the stats that showed Theis is not even in the top 48 in scoring and only 46th in rebounds.

And I can't back up my claim?

Here:

https://stats.nba.com/players/traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&StarterBench=Starters

You do realize you're not filtering for the minutes leaderboard or time played in any way right?

Also you're filtering for starters, which actually is less good of a measure because it excludes better Cs who for various reasons don't start. (Hi Montrez Harrell/Dwight)

Garbage in, garbage out is still the rule of data analysis. My searches were pretty simple, qualified for the minutes leaderboard and then played C this year.

[Fierce1]

C's have the 4th best record in the NBA and the 2nd best point differential per cleaning the glass.

https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/league/summary

No doubt that the Celts are pretty good this year.

All I'm saying is if it was too much of a risk to trade Hayward, why not make a smaller move to get another big man better than Poirier or at least improve the bench.

Poirier is our 5th big man when we're healthy (Theis/Kanter/The Williamses). 4th at best. And that's with guys like Tatum and Semi eating up minutes at the 4. There's no real compelling argument for giving up value to modestly upgrade him.

I wish we'd gotten a shooter tbh but the market seemed pretty tight on them. The free agency season is exceptionally weak so teams aren't motivated to rearrange cap space.

That's true if it's a normal year.
But this year the Celts have 3 1st round picks that they can't keep because of salary cap restrictions.
So trading Poirier and one of the picks for a modest upgrade would've helped in the long run.

[Donoghus]

Who cares if Theis is not scoring?  You have 4 guys on the team dropping 17+ ppg game.   

You're not trotting him out there to be a scorer & his rebounding has been more than sufficient.

Like I said, we have no choice but to roll with Theis because the trade deadline has passed.

IMO he's not starting Center.

But it doesn't matter because the Celts will use Smart at Center, in the playoffs, in crunch time.

I like Theis, but as a backup Center, not a starter.

That's fantastic.  Luckily, Brad is the one who understands his personnel & is coaching the team.

You can trying screaming it & spamming it (remember where that got you last time) into existence the contrary but the fact of the matter is that Theis is the starting center on this basketball and has been quite good at it this year.

Yeah, because last time you guys couldn't take the heat, that's why you did what you did.

No. It was because you were violating forum rules & ruining the enjoyment of other posters.

Wanna press your luck & try again?

[Fierce1]

So you say look it up, and I do.

Then suddenly its not "production" its his foul rate is too high and he's not an elite rebounder (he's 25th best rebounding center by REB% which is solid!)? You don't need to be an elite rebounder to be a starting caliber C!

Dude is a starting C and you made a strong claim and can't back it up. Shame you can't admit you were wrong like you were demanding "other posters" admit.

Sucks when people bring receipts. 

I provided you with the stats that showed Theis is not even in the top 48 in scoring and only 46th in rebounds.

And I can't back up my claim?

Here:

https://stats.nba.com/players/traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&StarterBench=Starters

You do realize you're not filtering for the minutes leaderboard or time played in any way right?

Also you're filtering for starters, which actually is less good of a measure because it excludes better Cs who for various reasons don't start. (Hi Montrez Harrell/Dwight)

Garbage in, garbage out is still the rule of data analysis. My searches were pretty simple, qualified for the minutes leaderboard and then played C this year.

Just because you don't agree with the stats that I'm showing you, it doesn't mean it's not true.

The key phrase is "my searches".
Your searches is different from my searches.

Clearly your standard is lower than mine.

I just don't agree that Theis is a starting NBA Center.
Put him on another team and he will just be the backup Center.

[Atzar]

The hilarious part is that this guy was criticizing somebody a few pages back because, quote:  "you value stats more than what is actually happening on the court."

Now he wants to say Theis isn't a good center because he doesn't get enough rebounds, while willfully ignoring what is actually happening on the court.

Come on, man. 

[Fierce1]

Who cares if Theis is not scoring?  You have 4 guys on the team dropping 17+ ppg game.   

You're not trotting him out there to be a scorer & his rebounding has been more than sufficient.

Like I said, we have no choice but to roll with Theis because the trade deadline has passed.

IMO he's not starting Center.

But it doesn't matter because the Celts will use Smart at Center, in the playoffs, in crunch time.

I like Theis, but as a backup Center, not a starter.

That's fantastic.  Luckily, Brad is the one who understands his personnel & is coaching the team.

You can trying screaming it & spamming it (remember where that got you last time) into existence the contrary but the fact of the matter is that Theis is the starting center on this basketball and has been quite good at it this year.

Yeah, because last time you guys couldn't take the heat, that's why you did what you did.

No. It was because you were violating forum rules & ruining the enjoyment of other posters.

Wanna press your luck & try again?

I didn't violate any rules.

The problem starts when you mods don't take action against other posters who attack me.

I didn't use any profanity.

Rocky is the one who starts it all.
You can check page 141 of this thread if you want.

Ruin the enjoyment?

So it's ok for other posters to attack me?

I think it's only fair that those who instigate should also be penalized.

[fairweatherfan]

C's have the 4th best record in the NBA and the 2nd best point differential per cleaning the glass.

https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/league/summary

No doubt that the Celts are pretty good this year.

All I'm saying is if it was too much of a risk to trade Hayward, why not make a smaller move to get another big man better than Poirier or at least improve the bench.

Poirier is our 5th big man when we're healthy (Theis/Kanter/The Williamses). 4th at best. And that's with guys like Tatum and Semi eating up minutes at the 4. There's no real compelling argument for giving up value to modestly upgrade him.

I wish we'd gotten a shooter tbh but the market seemed pretty tight on them. The free agency season is exceptionally weak so teams aren't motivated to rearrange cap space.

That's true if it's a normal year.
But this year the Celts have 3 1st round picks that they can't keep because of salary cap restrictions.
So trading Poirier and one of the picks for a modest upgrade would've helped in the long run.

There's an unspoken assumption here that we can't move those picks before/during the draft, which is probably exactly what we wind up doing with at least two of them. It's just shedding assets to shed them. Doesn't make sense to me.


EDIT: This is definitely all badly off-topic for this thread, can we maybe spin this discussion off?

[Fierce1]

The hilarious part is that this guy was criticizing somebody a few pages back because, quote:  "you value stats more than what is actually happening on the court."

Now he wants to say Theis isn't a good center because he doesn't get enough rebounds, while willfully ignoring what is actually happening on the court.

Come on, man.

Stats don't tell the whole story.

In Kemba's case, some here would argue that Kemba should shoot even if he's being guarded.
If you played or coached basketball, you know shooting over a defender is not a good shot, especially if it's in the clutch and Kemba's defender is usually taller than him.

The Theis issue is a different story.
Is Theis a starting Center in the NBA?
The stats say he's not.

[Fierce1]

C's have the 4th best record in the NBA and the 2nd best point differential per cleaning the glass.

https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/league/summary

No doubt that the Celts are pretty good this year.

All I'm saying is if it was too much of a risk to trade Hayward, why not make a smaller move to get another big man better than Poirier or at least improve the bench.

Poirier is our 5th big man when we're healthy (Theis/Kanter/The Williamses). 4th at best. And that's with guys like Tatum and Semi eating up minutes at the 4. There's no real compelling argument for giving up value to modestly upgrade him.

I wish we'd gotten a shooter tbh but the market seemed pretty tight on them. The free agency season is exceptionally weak so teams aren't motivated to rearrange cap space.

That's true if it's a normal year.
But this year the Celts have 3 1st round picks that they can't keep because of salary cap restrictions.
So trading Poirier and one of the picks for a modest upgrade would've helped in the long run.

There's an unspoken assumption here that we can't move those picks before/during the draft, which is probably exactly what we wind up doing with at least two of them. It's just shedding assets to shed them. Doesn't make sense to me.

Since the trade deadline has passed, we'll just have to wait for the playoffs.

If you check the game thread where the Celts lost to the Lakers, a lot of Celtic fans were so bitter after the loss.

I don't know what will be the reaction if the Celts exit in the playoffs because the Celts were just too small.

Looks like we'll just have to wait.

[nickagneta]

So the guy that is wrong will admit he is wrong. Yeah, right!!!

Wrong about how good Brown would be.
Wrong about Hayward being permanently damaged goods.
Wrong about the January slump being just a slump.
Wrong about whether Ainge would make a trade at the deadline.
Wrong about a desperate need for a big.
Lord knows, wrong about Kemba's three point decision making in the clutch.

No admissions of being wrong.
Just....if the Celtics don't win a title then I was right that Ainge should have made a trade.

[fairweatherfan]

C's have the 4th best record in the NBA and the 2nd best point differential per cleaning the glass.

https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/league/summary

No doubt that the Celts are pretty good this year.

All I'm saying is if it was too much of a risk to trade Hayward, why not make a smaller move to get another big man better than Poirier or at least improve the bench.

Poirier is our 5th big man when we're healthy (Theis/Kanter/The Williamses). 4th at best. And that's with guys like Tatum and Semi eating up minutes at the 4. There's no real compelling argument for giving up value to modestly upgrade him.

I wish we'd gotten a shooter tbh but the market seemed pretty tight on them. The free agency season is exceptionally weak so teams aren't motivated to rearrange cap space.

That's true if it's a normal year.
But this year the Celts have 3 1st round picks that they can't keep because of salary cap restrictions.
So trading Poirier and one of the picks for a modest upgrade would've helped in the long run.

There's an unspoken assumption here that we can't move those picks before/during the draft, which is probably exactly what we wind up doing with at least two of them. It's just shedding assets to shed them. Doesn't make sense to me.

Since the trade deadline has passed, we'll just have to wait for the playoffs.

If you check the game thread where the Celts lost to the Lakers, a lot of Celtic fans were so bitter after the loss.

I don't know what will be the reaction if the Celts exit in the playoffs because the Celts were just too small.

Looks like we'll just have to wait.

There's an unspoken assumption here that if we do have that outcome and size at the 5 is the accepted explanation, upgrading our 5th big man would've changed it.

[Fierce1]

So the guy that is wrong will admit he is wrong. Yeah, right!!!

Wrong about how good Brown would be.
Wrong about Hayward being permanently damaged goods.
Wrong about the January slump being just a slump.
Wrong about whether Ainge would make a trade at the deadline.
Wrong about a desperate need for a big.
Lord knows, wrong about Kemba's three point decision making in the clutch.

No admissions of being wrong.
Just....if the Celtics don't win a title then I was right that Ainge should have made a trade.

Ainge was the one who said he made a mistake by not making any moves at the trade deadline last season.

I was wrong about Brown, he's better than I expected.
But his FTs are still below 75%.

Hayward is damaged goods.
When you suffer an injury like that, it's very clear you'll never return 100%.
His nerve issue is proof of that.

January slump?
I wasn't here for most of January because you made sure of that, right?
So I don't recall talking about a January slump.

I was wrong about Ainge making a trade at the trade deadline.

The verdict is still out about the desperate need for a big.
We'll know for sure in the playoffs.
Just look at the game thread when the Celts lost to the Lakers, a lot of the posters here were so bitter after the loss.

And Kemba's 3pt decision making in the clutch is suspect.
Every time you shoot when you're guarded well, it's just not a good shot.
So I stand by that statement.

[Fierce1]

C's have the 4th best record in the NBA and the 2nd best point differential per cleaning the glass.

https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/league/summary

No doubt that the Celts are pretty good this year.

All I'm saying is if it was too much of a risk to trade Hayward, why not make a smaller move to get another big man better than Poirier or at least improve the bench.

Poirier is our 5th big man when we're healthy (Theis/Kanter/The Williamses). 4th at best. And that's with guys like Tatum and Semi eating up minutes at the 4. There's no real compelling argument for giving up value to modestly upgrade him.

I wish we'd gotten a shooter tbh but the market seemed pretty tight on them. The free agency season is exceptionally weak so teams aren't motivated to rearrange cap space.

That's true if it's a normal year.
But this year the Celts have 3 1st round picks that they can't keep because of salary cap restrictions.
So trading Poirier and one of the picks for a modest upgrade would've helped in the long run.

There's an unspoken assumption here that we can't move those picks before/during the draft, which is probably exactly what we wind up doing with at least two of them. It's just shedding assets to shed them. Doesn't make sense to me.

Since the trade deadline has passed, we'll just have to wait for the playoffs.

If you check the game thread where the Celts lost to the Lakers, a lot of Celtic fans were so bitter after the loss.

I don't know what will be the reaction if the Celts exit in the playoffs because the Celts were just too small.

Looks like we'll just have to wait.

There's an unspoken assumption here that if we do have that outcome and size at the 5 is the accepted explanation, upgrading our 5th big man would've changed it.

A guy like Nerlens Noel or Poeltl would've been a slight upgrade at the Center spot.

If it would've cost Poirier and a pick, I think it would've been worth it.