Author Topic: isaiah thomas-how to make him even better  (Read 8567 times)

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Re: isaiah thomas-how to make him even better
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2015, 11:04:06 PM »

Offline chilidawg

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Get him to play some D.  Worst defensive player on the team last year.  If he was an average defender he'd be a great player.

I went to ESPN's real plus/minus to try and prove you wrong and I ended up proving you right:-))

IT is the 73rd worst defender out of 83 PG's.  OUCH!!!

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/DRPM/position/1

I will support your argument now and shut up!!!

Smitty77

I've become _extremely_ skeptical of ESPN's version of adjusted-plus-minus ratings.  If you look up and down their rankings, some of them are pretty seriously begging questions.

If you look at the top by-minute (most used) 5-man lineups that Thomas played in last year (the five units that got at least 20 minutes of usage, there is a common, easily-spotted issue between the 3 with very good defensive ratings and the two with poor defensive ratings:



unit                                 minutes   ORtg   DRtg
Thomas-Bradley-Turner-Crowder-Zeller   41     1.02    1.02
Thomas-Bradley-Turner-Crowder-Bass     37     1.18    1.17
Thomas-Bradley-Turner-Bass-Zeller      30     1.21    .96
Thomas-Smart-Crowder-Jerebko-Olynyk    26     1.33    .92
Thomas-Smart-Young-Crowder-Jerebko     21     1.21    1.12


In the units with a 7 footer at center, the defense was fine-to-great.  In the units with Bass or Jerebko as the 'center', the defense was awful.

This suggests strongly that a Thomas-Bradley or Thomas-Smart backcourt is not really a defensive problem at all.

This same pattern also persists with most of Thomas' other 5-man units, though the minute sample sizes are small.

There is another pattern here also...

---

The best defensive rating was the 4th lineup, which featured:
* Thomas: -2.69 DRPM
* Smart: +1.05 DRPM
* Jerebko: +1.65 DRPM
* Olynyk: +1.71 DRPM
* Crowder: -1.07 DRPM

Total:
+0.65 DRPM

Conclusion
This lineup featured three of Boston's four top defensive players (according to DRPM) - Olynyk, Jerebko and Smart.  The positive impact of these guys was enough to offset the negative impact of Crowder and Thomas.

---

The second best defensive rating was the 3rd lineup, which featured:
* Thomas: -2.69 DRPM
* Bradley: +0.73 DRPM
* Turner:-0.28 DRPM
* Bass: -0.21 DRPM
* Zeller:  +1.36 DRPM

Total:
-1.09 DRPM

Conclusion
Despite dropping three of the team's top defensive players, this team was able to remain somewhat competitive defensively by replacing Crowder with Bass.  In the meantime Zeller, Bradley and Turner were solid enough to offset the loss of Smart, Jerebko and Olynyk.

---

The third best defensive rating was unit #1, which featured:
* Thomas: -2.69 DRPM
* Bradley: +0.73 DRPM
* Turner: -0.28 DRPM
* Crowder: -1.07 DRPM
* Zeller: +1.36 DRPM
Total: -1.95 DRPM

Conclusion:
This lineup is the same as the previous one, with the only change being that Bass is replaced by Crowder.  The team immediately gets worse defensively as a result, but Bradley and Zeller are able to hold things down well enough to give the team a fighting chance on 'D'.

---

The fourth best defensive rating was unit #5, which featured:
* Thomas: -2.69 DRPM
* Smart: +1.05 DRPM
* Young: -2.07 DRPM
* Crowder: -1.07 DRPM
* Jerebko: +1.65 DRPM
Total: -3.13 DRPM

Conclusion
Replacing Zeller and Smart for Jerebko and Bradley makes little difference, as both are strong defensive duo's.  The challenge comes with having Thomas, Young and Crowder (statstically, three of the team's worst defensive players) on the court at ones.  The resulting DRPM of -5.83 is so bad that you would have needed two Top 30 defensive players just to break even.

-

The fifth best (or worst) defensive lineup was unit #2, which featured:
* Thomas: -2.69 DRPM
* Bradley: +0.73 DRPM
* Turner: -0.28 DRPM
* Crowder: -1.07 DRPM
* Bass: -0.21 DRPM
Total: -3.52 DRPM

Conclusion
This lineup never had a hope.  The rotation of Thomas, Turner, Crowder and Bass leads to a total net DRPM of -4.25, and Bradley (as the only plus defender in this lineup) has no hope of making up for that.  In fact statistically there are only 6 guys in the NBA who could have, and they are Kawhi Leonard, Tim Duncan. Demarcus Cousins, Tony Allen, Andrwe Bogut and Draymond Green.  The fact that the Spurs and Warriors both have two guys from that list shows why both teams are so tough!

---

Looking at the above lineups, there are three things that I'm starting to see with consistency here:


Statistical relevance of Real Plus Minus
There seems to be a very strong correlation between DRPM and Defensive Rating - the ranks of the lineups are identical with both stats.  If you believe in Defensive Rating, then this indicates that it might be worth putting some trust in RPM too.


Impact of one bad defender
If you have a really bad defensive player on the court (e.g. Thomas: -2.69 DRPM) then it takes four 'Avery Bradley' caliber defenders (+0.73 DRPM) to compensate and break even as a team defensively.


Impact of multiple bad defenders
If you have two really bad defensive players (e.g. Thomas and Young) in an lineup, then to offset that liability you will need either:

* One Top 5 defensive player and two defenders who can hold their own
* Two Top 40 defensive player and one defender who can hold his own
* Three Top 60 Defensive players

That's won't even gain you an advantage, that's merely what you need to hold your own defensively while those two guys are on the court.


Defensive impact of 2015 roster changes
After the roster changes this season, we now have:

* 6 positive defensive players: Kelly Olynyk (+1.71), Jonas Jerebko (+1.65), Tyler Zeller (+1.36), Amir Johnson (+1.32), Marcus Smart (+1.05 DRPM), Avery Bradley (+0.73)
* 3 approximately neutral defensive players: Sullinger (+0.15), Turner (-0.28), Lee (-0.35)
* 4 negative defensive players: Thomas (-2.69), Young (-2.07), Perry Jones (-2.07), Crowder (-1.07)
* 3 Rookies who all have solid defensive potential: Rozier, Hunter and Mickey

Assuming that either Young or Jones is waived before the season starts, this would mean that - depending on how the rookies go - anywhere from 9/15 (60%) to 12/15 (80%) of all the guys on our roster are either positive defensive players, or at least capable of holding their own. I think we should have more than enough depth on the defensive end of the floor to ensure that we always have 3 plus-defenders on the court any time Thomas is out there, in order to help cover up for his limitations.

Nicely done.

Re: isaiah thomas-how to make him even better
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2015, 11:53:48 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Get him to play some D.  Worst defensive player on the team last year.  If he was an average defender he'd be a great player.

I went to ESPN's real plus/minus to try and prove you wrong and I ended up proving you right:-))

IT is the 73rd worst defender out of 83 PG's.  OUCH!!!

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/DRPM/position/1

I will support your argument now and shut up!!!

Smitty77

I've become _extremely_ skeptical of ESPN's version of adjusted-plus-minus ratings.  If you look up and down their rankings, some of them are pretty seriously begging questions.

If you look at the top by-minute (most used) 5-man lineups that Thomas played in last year (the five units that got at least 20 minutes of usage, there is a common, easily-spotted issue between the 3 with very good defensive ratings and the two with poor defensive ratings:



unit                                 minutes   ORtg   DRtg
Thomas-Bradley-Turner-Crowder-Zeller   41     1.02    1.02
Thomas-Bradley-Turner-Crowder-Bass     37     1.18    1.17
Thomas-Bradley-Turner-Bass-Zeller      30     1.21    .96
Thomas-Smart-Crowder-Jerebko-Olynyk    26     1.33    .92
Thomas-Smart-Young-Crowder-Jerebko     21     1.21    1.12


In the units with a 7 footer at center, the defense was fine-to-great.  In the units with Bass or Jerebko as the 'center', the defense was awful.

This suggests strongly that a Thomas-Bradley or Thomas-Smart backcourt is not really a defensive problem at all.

This same pattern also persists with most of Thomas' other 5-man units, though the minute sample sizes are small.

There is another pattern here also...

---

The best defensive rating was the 4th lineup, which featured:
* Thomas: -2.69 DRPM
* Smart: +1.05 DRPM
* Jerebko: +1.65 DRPM
* Olynyk: +1.71 DRPM
* Crowder: -0.44 DRPM

Total:
+1.28 DRPM

Conclusion
This lineup featured three of Boston's four top (according to DRPM) defensive players - Olynyk, Jerebko and Smart.  The positive impact of these guys was more than enough to offset the major defensive liabilities of Thomas, as well as the very modest negative impact of Crowder.

---

The second best defensive rating was the 3rd lineup, which featured:
* Thomas: -2.69 DRPM
* Bradley: +0.73 DRPM
* Turner:-0.28 DRPM
* Bass: -0.21 DRPM
* Zeller:  +1.36 DRPM

Total:
-1.09 DRPM

Conclusion
Thomas is clearly so much of a defensive liability that you pretty much NEED three plus-defenders on the court to offset the issues he causes.  Bradley and Zeller do a good job of minimizing that negative hit, but it's not enough when you have two others (Bass and Turner) who are only barely pulling their own weight.

---

The third best defensive rating was unit #1, which featured:
* Thomas: -2.69 DRPM
* Bradley: +0.73 DRPM
* Turner: -0.28 DRPM
* Crowder: -0.44 DRPM
* Zeller: +1.36 DRPM
Total: -1.29 DRPM

Conclusion:
This lineup is the same as the previous one, with the only change being that Bass is replaced by Crowder.  According to DRPM Crowder hurts the team more than Bass does defensively, so it makes sense that this team gets slightly worse as a result of the change.

---

The fourth best defensive rating was unit #5, which featured:
* Thomas: -2.69 DRPM
* Smart: +1.05 DRPM
* Young: -2.07 DRPM
* Crowder: -0.44 DRPM
* Jerebko: +1.65 DRPM
Total: -1.62 DRPM

Conclusion
According to the DRPM stat, this roster features Boston's two worse defensive players - Thomas (ranked 73/83 among all PG's) and James Young (ranked 71/91 among all SG's).   That Crowder is also a slightly negative impact doesn't help, as the three combine for a DRPM of -5.2, which is horrendous.  Smart and Jerebko are slipped in there to try and keep this lineup afloat, which that do an admirable job of (even if it's still not enough to make it a plus lineup).

-

The fifth best (or worst) defensive lineup was unit #2, which featured:
* Thomas: -2.69 DRPM
* Bradley: +0.73 DRPM
* Turner: -0.28 DRPM
* Crowder: -0.44 DRPM
* Bass: -0.21 DRPM
Total: -2.89 DRPM

Conclusion
This lineup never had a hope.  Avery Bradley is the only plus-defender in this lineup, and his impact alone would be enough to almost offset the slight negative impacts of Turner, Crowder and Bass.  But even at that point you're already on a slight negative, and once you throw Thomas out there this lineup has no hope of competing on the defensive end.

---

Looking at the above lineups, there are three things that I'm starting to see with consistency here:


Statistical relevance of Real Plus Minus
There seems to be a very strong correlation between DRPM and Defensive Rating - the ranks of the lineups are identical with both stats.  If you believe in Defensive Rating, then this indicates that it might be worth putting some trust in RPM too.


Impact of one bad defender
If you have a really bad defensive player on the court (e.g. Thomas: -2.69 DRPM) then it takes four 'Avery Bradley' caliber defenders (+0.73 DRPM) to compensate and break even as a team defensively.


Impact of multiple bad defenders
If you have two really bad defensive players (e.g. Thomas and Young) in an lineup, then to offset that liability you will need either:

* One Top 5 defensive player and two defenders who can hold their own
* Two Top 40 defensive player and one defender who can hold his own
* Three Top 60 Defensive players

That's won't even gain you an advantage, that's merely what you need to hold your own defensively while those two guys are on the court.


Defensive impact of 2015 roster changes
After the roster changes this season, we now have:

* 6 positive defensive players: Kelly Olynyk (+1.71), Jonas Jerebko (+1.65), Tyler Zeller (+1.36), Amir Johnson (+1.32), Marcus Smart (+1.05 DRPM), Avery Bradley (+0.73)
* 4 approximately neutral defensive players: Sullinger (+0.15), Turner (-0.28), Lee (-0.35), Crowder (-0.44)
* 3 negative defensive players: Thomas (-2.69), Young (-2.07), Perry Jones (-2.07)
* 3 Rookies who all have solid defensive potential: Rozier, Hunter and Mickey

Assuming that either Young or Jones is waived before the season starts, this would mean that - depending on how the rookies go - anywhere from 10/15 (66%) to 13/15 (86%) of all the guys on our roster are either positive defensive players, or at least capable of holding their own. I think we should have more than enough depth on the defensive end of the floor to ensure that we always have 3 plus-defenders on the court any time Thomas is out there, in order to help cover up for his limitations.

Holy crap.  I'm not going to create a gigantic quoted-thread war by going point-by-point, but that is some seriously flawed analysis.  You can't simply add up the DRPM and expect to get anything sensible that way.

That should have been dead obvious with the first two lineups.  They have very similar (excellent) defensive ratings of .92 and .96 points per possession, yet one has a +1.28 DRPM and the other has -1.09, two very different DRPM ratings.

Playing team defense isn't just about putting the best individual defenders on the floor.  Otherwise, you could put 5 Marcus Smarts on the floor and expect to shut down any lineup.  Or 5 Tyler Zellers.  But that's absurd, and obviously so.

You need a complementary set of players that can address matchups and play defense together.   You need a range of defenders to cover the range of matches and the teamwork to keep those matches in your favor.  This is something the 5-man data tells us in glowing neon.

Ultimately, DRPM, despite the attempts by the technique to pull out the individual, is still obviously suffering from team effects.  The biggest causes for this are collinearity (players who play all the time with each other or never with each other) and the frustratingly small sample sizes of so many of the lineups.     

You suggest that it's rankings are validated here, but they aren't.  There are multiple 'adjusted plus-minus' implementations with varying corrections for the above problems, but the corrections are different and result in wildly different rankings for many players, especially those that are not on the edges (extreme top or bottom).   

In 2014, DRPM ranked Lebron 23rd among SFs, well behind Jae Crowder (#12).  Paul Pierce was ranked #2, just ahead of Tony Allen.

In 2015, DRPM ranks Lebron #7.  Tony Allen moved up slightly to #2, but Paul Pierce dropped all the way to #22 and Crowder dropped all the way to #48.

If DRPM is really measuring the individuals and not team effects, why is it moving the players who changed teams all over the place?

DRPM suffers from a dramatic 'reliability' problem.  It is not yet remotely close to reliable.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: isaiah thomas-how to make him even better
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2015, 12:03:40 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Get him to play some D.  Worst defensive player on the team last year.  If he was an average defender he'd be a great player.

I went to ESPN's real plus/minus to try and prove you wrong and I ended up proving you right:-))

IT is the 73rd worst defender out of 83 PG's.  OUCH!!!

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/DRPM/position/1

I will support your argument now and shut up!!!

Smitty77

I've become _extremely_ skeptical of ESPN's version of adjusted-plus-minus ratings.  If you look up and down their rankings, some of them are pretty seriously begging questions.

If you look at the top by-minute (most used) 5-man lineups that Thomas played in last year (the five units that got at least 20 minutes of usage, there is a common, easily-spotted issue between the 3 with very good defensive ratings and the two with poor defensive ratings:



unit                                 minutes   ORtg   DRtg
Thomas-Bradley-Turner-Crowder-Zeller   41     1.02    1.02
Thomas-Bradley-Turner-Crowder-Bass     37     1.18    1.17
Thomas-Bradley-Turner-Bass-Zeller      30     1.21    .96
Thomas-Smart-Crowder-Jerebko-Olynyk    26     1.33    .92
Thomas-Smart-Young-Crowder-Jerebko     21     1.21    1.12


In the units with a 7 footer at center, the defense was fine-to-great.  In the units with Bass or Jerebko as the 'center', the defense was awful.

This suggests strongly that a Thomas-Bradley or Thomas-Smart backcourt is not really a defensive problem at all.

This same pattern also persists with most of Thomas' other 5-man units, though the minute sample sizes are small.

There is another pattern here also...

---

The best defensive rating was the 4th lineup, which featured:
* Thomas: -2.69 DRPM
* Smart: +1.05 DRPM
* Jerebko: +1.65 DRPM
* Olynyk: +1.71 DRPM
* Crowder: -1.07 DRPM

Total:
+0.65 DRPM

Conclusion
This lineup featured three of Boston's four top defensive players (according to DRPM) - Olynyk, Jerebko and Smart.  The positive impact of these guys was enough to offset the negative impact of Crowder and Thomas.

---

The second best defensive rating was the 3rd lineup, which featured:
* Thomas: -2.69 DRPM
* Bradley: +0.73 DRPM
* Turner:-0.28 DRPM
* Bass: -0.21 DRPM
* Zeller:  +1.36 DRPM

Total:
-1.09 DRPM

Conclusion
Despite dropping three of the team's top defensive players, this team was able to remain somewhat competitive defensively by replacing Crowder with Bass.  In the meantime Zeller, Bradley and Turner were solid enough to offset the loss of Smart, Jerebko and Olynyk.

---

The third best defensive rating was unit #1, which featured:
* Thomas: -2.69 DRPM
* Bradley: +0.73 DRPM
* Turner: -0.28 DRPM
* Crowder: -1.07 DRPM
* Zeller: +1.36 DRPM
Total: -1.95 DRPM

Conclusion:
This lineup is the same as the previous one, with the only change being that Bass is replaced by Crowder.  The team immediately gets worse defensively as a result, but Bradley and Zeller are able to hold things down well enough to give the team a fighting chance on 'D'.

---

The fourth best defensive rating was unit #5, which featured:
* Thomas: -2.69 DRPM
* Smart: +1.05 DRPM
* Young: -2.07 DRPM
* Crowder: -1.07 DRPM
* Jerebko: +1.65 DRPM
Total: -3.13 DRPM

Conclusion
Replacing Zeller and Smart for Jerebko and Bradley makes little difference, as both are strong defensive duo's.  The challenge comes with having Thomas, Young and Crowder (statstically, three of the team's worst defensive players) on the court at ones.  The resulting DRPM of -5.83 is so bad that you would have needed two Top 30 defensive players just to break even.

-

The fifth best (or worst) defensive lineup was unit #2, which featured:
* Thomas: -2.69 DRPM
* Bradley: +0.73 DRPM
* Turner: -0.28 DRPM
* Crowder: -1.07 DRPM
* Bass: -0.21 DRPM
Total: -3.52 DRPM

Conclusion
This lineup never had a hope.  The rotation of Thomas, Turner, Crowder and Bass leads to a total net DRPM of -4.25, and Bradley (as the only plus defender in this lineup) has no hope of making up for that.  In fact statistically there are only 6 guys in the NBA who could have, and they are Kawhi Leonard, Tim Duncan. Demarcus Cousins, Tony Allen, Andrwe Bogut and Draymond Green.  The fact that the Spurs and Warriors both have two guys from that list shows why both teams are so tough!

---

Looking at the above lineups, there are three things that I'm starting to see with consistency here:


Statistical relevance of Real Plus Minus
There seems to be a very strong correlation between DRPM and Defensive Rating - the ranks of the lineups are identical with both stats.  If you believe in Defensive Rating, then this indicates that it might be worth putting some trust in RPM too.


Impact of one bad defender
If you have a really bad defensive player on the court (e.g. Thomas: -2.69 DRPM) then it takes four 'Avery Bradley' caliber defenders (+0.73 DRPM) to compensate and break even as a team defensively.


Impact of multiple bad defenders
If you have two really bad defensive players (e.g. Thomas and Young) in an lineup, then to offset that liability you will need either:

* One Top 5 defensive player and two defenders who can hold their own
* Two Top 40 defensive player and one defender who can hold his own
* Three Top 60 Defensive players

That's won't even gain you an advantage, that's merely what you need to hold your own defensively while those two guys are on the court.


Defensive impact of 2015 roster changes
After the roster changes this season, we now have:

* 6 positive defensive players: Kelly Olynyk (+1.71), Jonas Jerebko (+1.65), Tyler Zeller (+1.36), Amir Johnson (+1.32), Marcus Smart (+1.05 DRPM), Avery Bradley (+0.73)
* 3 approximately neutral defensive players: Sullinger (+0.15), Turner (-0.28), Lee (-0.35)
* 4 negative defensive players: Thomas (-2.69), Young (-2.07), Perry Jones (-2.07), Crowder (-1.07)
* 3 Rookies who all have solid defensive potential: Rozier, Hunter and Mickey

Assuming that either Young or Jones is waived before the season starts, this would mean that - depending on how the rookies go - anywhere from 9/15 (60%) to 12/15 (80%) of all the guys on our roster are either positive defensive players, or at least capable of holding their own. I think we should have more than enough depth on the defensive end of the floor to ensure that we always have 3 plus-defenders on the court any time Thomas is out there, in order to help cover up for his limitations.

Nicely done.

Thanks!

In fact I went ahead and came up with a rotation that could work optimally, based on Real Plus Minus numbers, and came up with this


---------------------------------------------
Starters
---------------------------------------------
Pos | Player | Off RPM | Def RPM | RPM
---------------------------------------------
PG |Marcus Smart  | +1.17 | +1.05 | +2.22
SG | Avery Bradley | +0.73 | -0.34 | +0.39
SF | Jae Crowder | +0.63 | -1.07 | -0.44
PF | Kelly Olynyk | +1.79 | +1.71 | +3.50
C | Amir Johnson | +0.51 | +1.32 | +1.83
---------------------------------------------
Total Lineup | +4.83 | +2.67 | +7.50
---------------------------------------------


---------------------------------------------
Bench
---------------------------------------------
Pos | Player | Off RPM | Def RPM | RPM
---------------------------------------------
PG | Isaiah Thomas | +4.14 | -2.69 | +1.45
SG | Evan Turner | -1.09 | -0.28 | -1.37
SF | Jonas Jerebko | +0.95 | +1.65 | +2.60
PF | Jared Sullinger | +1.51 | +0.15 | +1.66 
C | Tyler Zeller | -0.78 | +1.36 | +0.58
---------------------------------------------
Total Lineup | +4.73 | + 0.19 | + 4.92 
---------------------------------------------


---------------------------------------------
Reserves
---------------------------------------------
Pos | Player | Off RPM | Def RPM | RPM
---------------------------------------------
F/C | David Lee | +0.40 | -0.35 | +0.05
G/F | James Young | -1.69 | -2.07 | -3.76
F | Perry Jones | -3.79 | -2.07 | -5.86
G | Terry Rozier | TBA | TBA | TBA
G/G | R.J. Hunter | TBA | TBA | TBA
F/C | Jordan Mickey | TBA | TBA | TBA
---------------------------------------------

Unfortunately this leaves David Lee as the designated homeless (as far as roster spots go) but it doesn't really matter how you do it, one of the bigs is going to find themselves stuck on the bench with the current roster.  Of course at least one person will be gone from the above by the time the season starts, so hopefully one of the bigs can be moved in a trade that can bring us an upgrade at the backup SG spot, starting SG spot or Starting SF spot (the only positions that we have negative RPM ratings). 

Re: isaiah thomas-how to make him even better
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2015, 12:57:08 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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So we are  talking best lineup with IT is
IT
Smart
Jerekbo
KO
Zeller.

Re: isaiah thomas-how to make him even better
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2015, 02:25:28 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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In 2014, DRPM ranked Lebron 23rd among SFs, well behind Jae Crowder (#12).  Paul Pierce was ranked #2, just ahead of Tony Allen.

In 2015, DRPM ranks Lebron #7.  Tony Allen moved up slightly to #2, but Paul Pierce dropped all the way to #22 and Crowder dropped all the way to #48.

If DRPM is really measuring the individuals and not team effects, why is it moving the players who changed teams all over the place?

To assume that a change in defensive RPM the year after a team change, must be a result of the said team change, is flawed logic.  There are more things at play than just a change in team. 

For example, a person's role can change - e.g. Avery Bradley. One year your only responsibility is to go out there and play hard D for 10 minutes a night.  The next year the team tells you you need to play 28 MPG, and they want you to be the #3 offensive option.  Now you can't play defense at 150% on every possession, you need to pace yourself and make that energy last.

A player's mental circumstances can change - e.g. Zach Randolph.  Known early in his career as a lazy guy with a weight problem and a horrible work ethic. He's completely turned that mentality around (well, expect for the weight) a long time ago, and when he did his play improved dramatically as a result.

A guys physical circumstances can change - e.g. Kevin Garnett.  Garnett was one of the NBA's greatest offensive players in 2008 when he came to Boston.  Now he can barely contribute on that end of the floor.  Much of that is a result of age - he's just not as explosive athletically as he once was, and he can't do the things he once could.  Defensively his numbers are still good (+2.32 DRPM, 11th among PF's) but that's a far cry from where it would have been when he was 30 years old.

Players develop.  Andrew Wiggins had a horrible DRPM last year of -2.13 was horrible last year, ranked 70/80 among NBA SF's.  But he's a rookie.  As he learns the game, learns rotations, learns how to read players, I'm sure that his defense is going improve dramatically in the coming years. 

Motivation - a guy who has just won a championship might suddenly see his hunger for victory fade a little.  His Defense (and hence DRPM) may suffer as a result. 

There are many, many factors that could have changed.  For example, Paul Pierce didn't only change from one team to another - he also got a year older.  Maybe he just lost a step defensively?  I mean the guy is in his mid-to-late 30's so that's kind of expected.

Lebron changed teams, and his rating improved.  Maybe that's just because he got knocked out of the playoffs the prior year, and so he came into the new year especially driven and motivated because he didn't want to get knocked out again.  How can we conclusively say that the rating changed because he changed teams? 

Joe Crowder saw a much alrger role with far greater minutes in Boston, where he played around 25 MPG as a constant rotation player (versus about 10 MPG as a end of bench guy in Dallas).  maybe he had to pace himself in that bigger role, and hence his defense dropped off.

There are a number of factors that can explain these changes in RPM beyond simply "the player changed teams".  Some of the changes may be due to team environmental circumstances, sure.  But that's true for any statistic.  You can name almost any stat you like, and I can make a case as to how that stat could vary for a player based on team environment changes.

Likewise, for every player who DID have their DRPM change after they changed teams...I can name you a player who had their DRPM change despite staying on the exact same team.

Avery Bradley is one example.  He ranked 6th among PG's with a DRPM of +1.22 in in 2013/14 (yes, they list him as a PG - no idea why) but in 2014/15 he dropped to +0.73 and a rank of 13th among PG's.

John Wall had a DRPM of -0.44 in 2013/14 (25th among PG) and that improved to +1.73 (4th among PG) in 2014/15.  That's an improvement of +2.17 and 21 ranks.

Brandon Jennings ha a DRPM of -4.37 in 2013/14 which ranked him 68th among PG, then in 2014/15 that improved to -1.41 and a rank of 46th.

Stephen Curry improved from -0.38 and 23rd in 2013/14, to +1.91 and 2nd in 2014/15.

All of those guy stayed on the same team. 

The very simply factor here is what Real Plus Minus actually represents.  It represents (more or less) how much your team improves / declines when you step out there on the court.  If you step on the court and your team gets worse, then having you on the court brings a negative impact.  If bringing you in causes your team defense to improve, then you are having a positive impact. 

Even late bench role players tend to play more than 1,000 minutes on the court over the course of an NBA season.  The sample size is large, and rotations vary enough to take away much of their impact - especially on teams like Boston, which had it's roster and rotations constantly changing.

At least that's how I see it.   

Re: isaiah thomas-how to make him even better
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2015, 03:32:28 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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I think that becoming a better and more willing passer would improve Isiah's game immensely. 

There's not much he can do about his height.

He dished 7.5 assists/36 after joining the Celtics and assisted 35.2% of his team's shots on the floor -- those are pretty solid indications that his passing is pretty decent and willing.

For his career, he's at 5.9 Per 36.  That's fairly low for a point guard.  It's not like he can't make good passes when someone's open, but I do feel he often doesn't make the easy pass early in a possession.

I agree with the poster above who pointed at that this became somewhat of a problem in the playoffs.  He was rendered less effective when he was trapped or doubled up high.  He was caught often trying to force the issue, instead of making the easy pass to beat the aggressive defense.

DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: isaiah thomas-how to make him even better
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2015, 01:46:07 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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In 2014, DRPM ranked Lebron 23rd among SFs, well behind Jae Crowder (#12).  Paul Pierce was ranked #2, just ahead of Tony Allen.

In 2015, DRPM ranks Lebron #7.  Tony Allen moved up slightly to #2, but Paul Pierce dropped all the way to #22 and Crowder dropped all the way to #48.

If DRPM is really measuring the individuals and not team effects, why is it moving the players who changed teams all over the place?

To assume that a change in defensive RPM the year after a team change, must be a result of the said team change, is flawed logic.  There are more things at play than just a change in team. 


As I said, I don't want to get dragged into a big long debate on this.  I remain firmly skeptical about ESPN RAPM in general and DRPM in particular.  The examples I cited are just a tiny snippet of the many results that beg the question of the reliability of the stat.   I am not the only one to raise these questions and it is quite easy to search and find the many criticisms of the stat.

Your many attempts at 'counter examples' are attempts to put all the changes on the player when in truth it is not possible to cleanly separate a player's changed behavior from being, indeed, responses to team effects.

And ultimately, as I originally alluded to it, the corrections for collinearity effects are seemingly arbitrary and result in wild differences in results for a huge portion of the players.

None of this is to completely dismiss DRPM as completely worthless.  However, I see many folks -- and your posts seem to reflect this -- cite it as if it has some sort of absolute credibility.  It doesn't.  It doesn't come within a country mile of being reliable.

DRPM and RAPM in general should be taken with a big, giant, fat grain of salt, the same as PER and other attempts to find a single number.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: isaiah thomas-how to make him even better
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2015, 05:35:05 PM »

Online SHAQATTACK

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Get everybody else to play on their knees ?

Re: isaiah thomas-how to make him even better
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2015, 06:07:16 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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I think that becoming a better and more willing passer would improve Isiah's game immensely. 

There's not much he can do about his height.

He dished 7.5 assists/36 after joining the Celtics and assisted 35.2% of his team's shots on the floor -- those are pretty solid indications that his passing is pretty decent and willing.

For his career, he's at 5.9 Per 36.  That's fairly low for a point guard.  It's not like he can't make good passes when someone's open, but I do feel he often doesn't make the easy pass early in a possession.

I agree with the poster above who pointed at that this became somewhat of a problem in the playoffs.  He was rendered less effective when he was trapped or doubled up high.  He was caught often trying to force the issue, instead of making the easy pass to beat the aggressive defense.

I disagree about your assessment of what happened during the playoffs.  Isaiah actually increased his assist numbers significantly during the playoffs to 8.6/36 and an AST% of 41.1% (those are near Rondo levels) while still scoring over 20 points in three of the four games.  Isaiah really only had one 'bad' game in those playoffs (game 3) and that had far more to due with the refs sudden unwillingness to call any fouls and allow him to get to the line than it had to do with his 'forcing the issue'.

Otherwise, the "problem" of team's doubling on him was more a reflection of the rest of our roster and the lack of a legitimate alternative threat.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: isaiah thomas-how to make him even better
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2015, 06:17:48 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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In 2014, DRPM ranked Lebron 23rd among SFs, well behind Jae Crowder (#12).  Paul Pierce was ranked #2, just ahead of Tony Allen.

In 2015, DRPM ranks Lebron #7.  Tony Allen moved up slightly to #2, but Paul Pierce dropped all the way to #22 and Crowder dropped all the way to #48.

If DRPM is really measuring the individuals and not team effects, why is it moving the players who changed teams all over the place?

To assume that a change in defensive RPM the year after a team change, must be a result of the said team change, is flawed logic.  There are more things at play than just a change in team. 


As I said, I don't want to get dragged into a big long debate on this.  I remain firmly skeptical about ESPN RAPM in general and DRPM in particular.  The examples I cited are just a tiny snippet of the many results that beg the question of the reliability of the stat.   I am not the only one to raise these questions and it is quite easy to search and find the many criticisms of the stat.

Your many attempts at 'counter examples' are attempts to put all the changes on the player when in truth it is not possible to cleanly separate a player's changed behavior from being, indeed, responses to team effects.

And ultimately, as I originally alluded to it, the corrections for collinearity effects are seemingly arbitrary and result in wild differences in results for a huge portion of the players.

None of this is to completely dismiss DRPM as completely worthless.  However, I see many folks -- and your posts seem to reflect this -- cite it as if it has some sort of absolute credibility.  It doesn't.  It doesn't come within a country mile of being reliable.

DRPM and RAPM in general should be taken with a big, giant, fat grain of salt, the same as PER and other attempts to find a single number.

You're on fire today. Who/what woke the beast?
Just out of curiosity, how do you know what corrections were made for collinearity effects? I hadn't seen anything reported on that.
The Tarstradamus Group, LLC

Re: isaiah thomas-how to make him even better
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2015, 11:46:58 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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I think that becoming a better and more willing passer would improve Isiah's game immensely. 

There's not much he can do about his height.

He dished 7.5 assists/36 after joining the Celtics and assisted 35.2% of his team's shots on the floor -- those are pretty solid indications that his passing is pretty decent and willing.

For his career, he's at 5.9 Per 36.  That's fairly low for a point guard.  It's not like he can't make good passes when someone's open, but I do feel he often doesn't make the easy pass early in a possession.

I agree with the poster above who pointed at that this became somewhat of a problem in the playoffs.  He was rendered less effective when he was trapped or doubled up high.  He was caught often trying to force the issue, instead of making the easy pass to beat the aggressive defense.

I disagree about your assessment of what happened during the playoffs.  Isaiah actually increased his assist numbers significantly during the playoffs to 8.6/36 and an AST% of 41.1% (those are near Rondo levels) while still scoring over 20 points in three of the four games.  Isaiah really only had one 'bad' game in those playoffs (game 3) and that had far more to due with the refs sudden unwillingness to call any fouls and allow him to get to the line than it had to do with his 'forcing the issue'.

Otherwise, the "problem" of team's doubling on him was more a reflection of the rest of our roster and the lack of a legitimate alternative threat.

Well, his 8.5 assists per 36 were accompanied by 4.2 turnovers per 36.  Also, his shooting percentages were down significantly.  His scoring efficiency numbers still look decent because he got to the line a heck of a lot.

I agree that part of the problem was a reflection of the rest of the cast's offensive abilities, but I also think Isiah should shoulder some blame for trying to force it too much when the Cavs loaded up on him.

DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: isaiah thomas-how to make him even better
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2015, 12:06:36 AM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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I think that becoming a better and more willing passer would improve Isiah's game immensely. 

There's not much he can do about his height.

He dished 7.5 assists/36 after joining the Celtics and assisted 35.2% of his team's shots on the floor -- those are pretty solid indications that his passing is pretty decent and willing.

For his career, he's at 5.9 Per 36.  That's fairly low for a point guard.  It's not like he can't make good passes when someone's open, but I do feel he often doesn't make the easy pass early in a possession.

I agree with the poster above who pointed at that this became somewhat of a problem in the playoffs.  He was rendered less effective when he was trapped or doubled up high.  He was caught often trying to force the issue, instead of making the easy pass to beat the aggressive defense.

I disagree about your assessment of what happened during the playoffs.  Isaiah actually increased his assist numbers significantly during the playoffs to 8.6/36 and an AST% of 41.1% (those are near Rondo levels) while still scoring over 20 points in three of the four games.  Isaiah really only had one 'bad' game in those playoffs (game 3) and that had far more to due with the refs sudden unwillingness to call any fouls and allow him to get to the line than it had to do with his 'forcing the issue'.

Otherwise, the "problem" of team's doubling on him was more a reflection of the rest of our roster and the lack of a legitimate alternative threat.

Well, his 8.5 assists per 36 were accompanied by 4.2 turnovers per 36.  Also, his shooting percentages were down significantly.  His scoring efficiency numbers still look decent because he got to the line a heck of a lot.

I agree that part of the problem was a reflection of the rest of the cast's offensive abilities, but I also think Isiah should shoulder some blame for trying to force it too much when the Cavs loaded up on him.
good points. i was impressed by IT's effort to carry the celtics on his back. but he simply doesnt have that level of talent. i dont blame him and i do appreciate his all out effort.

but he has limitations that were exposed in the playoffs.
I believe Gandhi is the only person who knew about real democracy — not democracy as the right to go and buy what you want, but democracy as the responsibility to be accountable to everyone around you. Democracy begins with freedom from hunger, freedom from unemployment, freedom from fear, and freedom from hatred.
- Vandana Shiva

Re: isaiah thomas-how to make him even better
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2015, 07:56:39 AM »

Offline krumeto

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I think that becoming a better and more willing passer would improve Isiah's game immensely. 

There's not much he can do about his height.

He dished 7.5 assists/36 after joining the Celtics and assisted 35.2% of his team's shots on the floor -- those are pretty solid indications that his passing is pretty decent and willing.

For his career, he's at 5.9 Per 36.  That's fairly low for a point guard.  It's not like he can't make good passes when someone's open, but I do feel he often doesn't make the easy pass early in a possession.

I agree with the poster above who pointed at that this became somewhat of a problem in the playoffs.  He was rendered less effective when he was trapped or doubled up high.  He was caught often trying to force the issue, instead of making the easy pass to beat the aggressive defense.

I disagree about your assessment of what happened during the playoffs.  Isaiah actually increased his assist numbers significantly during the playoffs to 8.6/36 and an AST% of 41.1% (those are near Rondo levels) while still scoring over 20 points in three of the four games.  Isaiah really only had one 'bad' game in those playoffs (game 3) and that had far more to due with the refs sudden unwillingness to call any fouls and allow him to get to the line than it had to do with his 'forcing the issue'.

Otherwise, the "problem" of team's doubling on him was more a reflection of the rest of our roster and the lack of a legitimate alternative threat.

Well, his 8.5 assists per 36 were accompanied by 4.2 turnovers per 36.  Also, his shooting percentages were down significantly.  His scoring efficiency numbers still look decent because he got to the line a heck of a lot.

I agree that part of the problem was a reflection of the rest of the cast's offensive abilities, but I also think Isiah should shoulder some blame for trying to force it too much when the Cavs loaded up on him.
good points. i was impressed by IT's effort to carry the celtics on his back. but he simply doesnt have that level of talent. i dont blame him and i do appreciate his all out effort.

but he has limitations that were exposed in the playoffs.

It would be interesting to watch IT with other offensive threats around him. Last year we surrounded him with average shooters to good effect in the regular season. Nobody on the team (except maybe for Sully and Zeller) would be considered a very good offensive player.

In the playoffs, the average shooters went cold. AB was 26% from 3, Smart- 23%. Those are our top 2 3 point takers from last year. Nobody except for IT was drawing FTs. It was brutal offensively.

I need to re-watch the games, but I remember a lot of trapping on IT, which usually means at least one player would be open. What would happen if he was paired with other offensive threads? Or at least with good 3 point shooters?

By the way, I think this is a good example of productive disagreement in a thread. I enjoyed the reading.
"We do so many defensive drills in practice, I come home and I'm putting the press on my woman, denying her the ball.
Y'all are laughing, but it's sad. I go home and deny the wing."

Re: isaiah thomas-how to make him even better
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2015, 08:51:35 AM »

Offline rollie mass

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great job by posters,there was a little messin around  early but got around to what the subject was about-