Do the Celtics Have the Right Stuff (to win a title)

[W8ting2McHale]

Tatum is the key and he hasn’t been an MVP level player. In my opinion the reason he hasn’t is due to inconsistency and not involving his teammates enough.

What I wanted to see from him this year was to become more consistent with his scoring and trusting his teammates by making plays for them. He’s been making progress in that regard but he’s not made “The Leap.”  Yet. I still think he can.

As for him or JB being “Soft,” I don’t think that’s a thing. I grew up watching Bird, Magic and MJ “Willing their teams to victory,” so I get that mythology. Tatum is fully capable of being that guy. He’s done it here and there, just not consistently.

I don’t think that Giannis lowering his shoulder and charging the rim, or Embiid’s flopping are signs of “Won’t be denied” either, although both have MVPs only one has a ring.

I do believe that the repeated championship attempts that came up short the past few years have done a number on the hardcore fans that believe “A season without a championship is a failure.” That group is sounding rather entitled lately and any perceived shortcomings in the Celtics is magnified.

As for the Celtics regressing or falling apart, they are 8–2 their last 10 games. The same record as the “Far superior LA Clippers.”

The Cleveland and New York are both 9-1, but everyone else has had a worse streak. OKC, Denver and Phoenix are 7-3. The Bucks and 76ers are 6-4. The once formidable Pacers are 4-6. Those teams all have a lot more to worry about than the Celtics. Yes, even the 9-1 teams. While the Celtics have been maintaining a close to 8-2 pace for the entire season, both of those teams are likely to regress, just like the Magic and Pacers have.

I know losing to the Lakers stings more than most, but it wasn’t a playoff game and my wrists are not scarred. If you want to cry about a team going in the wrong direction, follow the Heat. They’re 3-7.

Yeah, the Celtics could play better. For some reason when one starter has a bad night, several players do. I was hoping there’d be more of them stepping up but it feels like it’s only happening now and then when Porzingis or White take over. I also wish we didn’t take so many 3s, because I truly hate that the game has become a series of 3 point streaks yo-yoing back and forth. If not for the Celtics I probably wouldn’t watch the NBA at all.

[Moranis]

I know everyone seems to discount what I've been saying for years regarding top end talent (in large part because it is me saying it), but if you look at every champion since the 70's every single 1, except the 04 Pistons, has either a clear cut top 30 player all time and/or a clear cut top 5 player in the league as their best player (and all but a few that guy is both).  EVERY SINGLE ONE (except that 04 Pistons team).  So when I say you need a truly special player to win, it is because that is historically what it takes. 

Thus far, Tatum has not reached that level and that is why Boston hasn't won a title and likely won't, unless Tatum reaches that level.  That is why for years I've advocated making trades that maximize Tatum (or a few years back was trying get a player better than him), which is also why I liked both the major moves this summer ad both KP and Jrue are good compliments next to Tatum.

Also, historically very few teams have had the level of success the Celtics have without a top 5 player (and early on without a top 10 player), so when I say things like Boston has overachieved its talent, that is what I mean.  Really the early 00 Pistons and the Reggie Pacers are the only teams that compare historically over a 5+ year period. Obviously thr Pistons broke through fornthe title exception and the Pacers never did.

Tatum hasn't played up to the level he can yet this year and Boston is the best team, so that is a good sign. If Tatum gets on a roll in the playoffs, Boston will have it best shot at a title since 2010 and may even be favored to do so (Denver worries me, but everyone else does not).

Luka is likely a consensus top 5 player.  You like Dallas' chances better than Boston's?

Embiid is also a top 5 player and maybe top 30 all time.  Do you think Philly is more likely to win the championship??

only 1 team wins a title any year and that team usually onky has 1 of those guys on it, so that means 4 don't win and most if not all of those 4 don't even make the Finals. So that isn't what I'm saying. 

Embiid can't stay healthy. The only time he was close to full health in the playoffs was 2019 when they lost game 7 by 2 points and Embiid was +10 in 45 minutes and 12 seconds of game action. Which of course means in the 2 minutes 48 seconds he was on the bench the Sixers were outscored by 12 points.  Embiid wasn't even a top 5 player that season.  But that is what a "healthy" Embiid can do.  He is a different class of talent than Tatum, he is just never healthy.

[keevsnick]

I know everyone seems to discount what I've been saying for years regarding top end talent (in large part because it is me saying it), but if you look at every champion since the 70's every single 1, except the 04 Pistons, has either a clear cut top 30 player all time and/or a clear cut top 5 player in the league as their best player (and all but a few that guy is both).  EVERY SINGLE ONE (except that 04 Pistons team).  So when I say you need a truly special player to win, it is because that is historically what it takes. 

Thus far, Tatum has not reached that level and that is why Boston hasn't won a title and likely won't, unless Tatum reaches that level.  That is why for years I've advocated making trades that maximize Tatum (or a few years back was trying get a player better than him), which is also why I liked both the major moves this summer ad both KP and Jrue are good compliments next to Tatum.

Also, historically very few teams have had the level of success the Celtics have without a top 5 player (and early on without a top 10 player), so when I say things like Boston has overachieved its talent, that is what I mean.  Really the early 00 Pistons and the Reggie Pacers are the only teams that compare historically over a 5+ year period. Obviously thr Pistons broke through fornthe title exception and the Pacers never did.

Tatum hasn't played up to the level he can yet this year and Boston is the best team, so that is a good sign. If Tatum gets on a roll in the playoffs, Boston will have it best shot at a title since 2010 and may even be favored to do so (Denver worries me, but everyone else does not).

Luka is likely a consensus top 5 player.  You like Dallas' chances better than Boston's?

Embiid is also a top 5 player and maybe top 30 all time.  Do you think Philly is more likely to win the championship??

only 1 team wins a title any year and that team usually onky has 1 of those guys on it, so that means 4 don't win and most if not all of those 4 don't even make the Finals. So that isn't what I'm saying. 

Embiid can't stay healthy. The only time he was close to full health in the playoffs was 2019 when they lost game 7 by 2 points and Embiid was +10 in 45 minutes and 12 seconds of game action. Which of course means in the 2 minutes 48 seconds he was on the bench the Sixers were outscored by 12 points.  Embiid wasn't even a top 5 player that season.  But that is what a "healthy" Embiid can do.  He is a different class of talent than Tatum, he is just never healthy.

Ya, typically the team that win's has a guy on it who has already, at some point, won an MVP award. Not "will one day win MVP," but literally already has one. That's basically just shorthand for what Moranis is saying.

The Celtics winning with Tatum play like the 6th-10th bets player rather than a clear cut top 5 guy would be an anomaly. It's not impossible, and if any team COULD do pull it off it would be a team with a high level depth of talent like the C's. But still, it gives them less margin for error.

[Kernewek]

I grew up watching Bird, Magic and MJ “Willing their teams to victory,” so I get that mythology.

Good post, but I think it’s well worth keeping in mind how much B.S. this mythology actually is. Anyone who was around will have watched all three of these guys fall short of a title more often than not over their careers - because ‘the will to win’ is basically just empty nonsense.

[Roy H.]

I don't know.  I think KP is the missing piece.  But, I question whether we have the mental toughness and coaching.

[tenn_smoothie]

I fear not.

Two reasons. The incompetency of Mazzulla and the weak competitive mentality shared by Tatum & Brown.

[celticinorlando]

Pluses:
-Superior talent.
-Experience
-Past disappointments to fuel them.
-They can improve their team
-This team hasn’t come close to hitting their ceiling
-

Deltas:
-Mentally. They often play down to teams. They struggle to be consistent. They don’t put teams away.
-The volume 3 offense. If they aren’t falling the Celtics aren’t winning. They have nothing they pivot to (defense, inside game) to keep them in games. They refuse to adapt within the flow of the game.
-Coaching. Joe is a friend and doesn’t seem to be a butt kicker. This team needs a strong hand to call them out.
-This team plays lazy. Never seems to get 50/50 balls. Rebounding has been poor lately. Stand around on both ends.

This team can beat anyone…easily. But they can be beaten by anyone. Lakers game was unacceptable. A championship team doesn’t lose that game. This is concerning.

[scaryjerry]

They’re very good but at this point until they prove otherwise, no.

Were you saying the same thing about Denver a year ago?

Actually, yes and the nuggets proved otherwise and a 2 time mvp was dominant throughout…we don’t really have a player on that level

[Phantom255x]

They’re very good but at this point until they prove otherwise, no.

Were you saying the same thing about Denver a year ago?

To be fair a lot of people were saying that about Denver and they proved it a year ago. I did too. Thought Jokic was a liability on defense + didn't trust Murray as much. They also had playoff letdowns in recent years as well and were questioned including the coach. But as we saw, Murray stepped up big time and took a bit of a leap. Hope Jaylen can do the same and improve the decision-making come playoffs.

Ultimately though, this whole thread is the same as usual. We won't know until April-May. That's when it'll all matter. It's why as frustrating as some of the recent losses are, it doesn't bother me. Name me a single NBA team this season that hasn't had a few "letdowns" or "bad losses". I'll wait. It's that time of the year near the break when many are "bored" and going through the motions. Same with the C's, they may just stroll to the 1 seed anyways at around 60 wins with little resistance. The key is staying healthy and managing minutes.

Maybe others are right that Mazzulla and the Jays will prevent us from winning it all. Or they improve, take a leap and we win Banner 18. Again, no one will know in February 3, have to see beyond April

[CelticSooner]

This is the most talented team in the league outside of the Clippers. To win a title one of two things will have to happen though. Either Mazzulla will have to prove to be close to elite or Tatum will have to carry the team when things get tight. We are hoping for this to happen when other teams have guys that have done it already.

[Who]

-Coaching. Joe is a friend and doesn’t seem to be a butt kicker. This team needs a strong hand to call them out.

Perhaps more of a guide than a friend. Not a boss who tells us them exactly what to do but a gentle hand guiding them in a direction leaving them to figure out some things on their own.

[ozgod]

-Coaching. Joe is a friend and doesn’t seem to be a butt kicker. This team needs a strong hand to call them out.

Perhaps more of a guide than a friend. Not a boss who tells us them exactly what to do but a gentle hand guiding them in a direction leaving them to figure out some things on their own.

Butt kicking coaches seem to be more popular and perceived to be more successful than guides...I think deep down inside we human beings are still those animals that looked up at the moon with fear thousands of years ago. We gravitate to strong leaders, even if we have long ago been civilized and developed different methods and systems of leadership than just those dictatorial leaders. We still like those folks that kick ass and take names. In sport as well as in real life 

To me, I think we have all the pieces in place...sure our coach could be a bit more of a hardass but teams have won championships with mediocre coaches...but I can't remember any team winning if their best player wasn't also the best player on the court for the majority of the games. Tatum (and Brown) have to outshine everyone else if we are to win. They don't have to do it every game of the regular season as I don't think they have that Jordan gene or the Mamba mentality to be the best every single night, but they absolutely have to do it in the games that matter. Tatum has to be better than Kawhi, or PG13, or Joker, or Giannis, or Embiid...he has to be the best version of himself and that means he has to be mentally stronger than those guys. They might score more but he has to impact winning the most, when it matters.

[SHAQATTACK]

They could use a good coach

[kraidstar]

I know everyone seems to discount what I've been saying for years regarding top end talent (in large part because it is me saying it), but if you look at every champion since the 70's every single 1, except the 04 Pistons, has either a clear cut top 30 player all time and/or a clear cut top 5 player in the league as their best player (and all but a few that guy is both).  EVERY SINGLE ONE (except that 04 Pistons team).  So when I say you need a truly special player to win, it is because that is historically what it takes. 

Thus far, Tatum has not reached that level and that is why Boston hasn't won a title and likely won't, unless Tatum reaches that level.  That is why for years I've advocated making trades that maximize Tatum (or a few years back was trying get a player better than him), which is also why I liked both the major moves this summer ad both KP and Jrue are good compliments next to Tatum.

Also, historically very few teams have had the level of success the Celtics have without a top 5 player (and early on without a top 10 player), so when I say things like Boston has overachieved its talent, that is what I mean.  Really the early 00 Pistons and the Reggie Pacers are the only teams that compare historically over a 5+ year period. Obviously thr Pistons broke through fornthe title exception and the Pacers never did.

Tatum hasn't played up to the level he can yet this year and Boston is the best team, so that is a good sign. If Tatum gets on a roll in the playoffs, Boston will have it best shot at a title since 2010 and may even be favored to do so (Denver worries me, but everyone else does not).

Luka is likely a consensus top 5 player.  You like Dallas' chances better than Boston's?

Embiid is also a top 5 player and maybe top 30 all time.  Do you think Philly is more likely to win the championship??

I think more teams have a chance than in the past. In part because the game has gone global and there are more elite players then there were a couple decades ago.

IMO any top-10 guy with a good supporting cast has a shot.

[kraidstar]

I grew up watching Bird, Magic and MJ “Willing their teams to victory,” so I get that mythology.

Good post, but I think it’s well worth keeping in mind how much B.S. this mythology actually is. Anyone who was around will have watched all three of these guys fall short of a title more often than not over their careers - because ‘the will to win’ is basically just empty nonsense.

Some guys step up and other guys wither under the bright lights. There's nothing empty about it.