Coco Crisp reportedly traded

[crownsy]

Last year we all would have been pleased with this, but I think this year we saw a healthy Coco and giving up an every day centerfielder for a set up man is a bit iffy.

Rocco Baldelli can't be too far behind then (as a 4th outfielder).

Rocco in Red Sox would be awesome. I think it would be a brilliant signing.

Also, let's not forget to add Javier Lopez to that bullpen list. He was excellent last year and a bullpen with Paps, Masterson, Okijima, Manny, Lopez and this kid Ramirez would be excellent with only the need for a long relief guy needed to fill the bullpen up. Of course that guy will probably be our sixth starter, in reality, waiting for someone to get injured.

I would think that a Ramirez acquisition would move Masterson to the starting rotation (not sure where Clay fits in) -- but what confuses things a bit is the fact that the Sox are in negotiations with AJ Burnett (although they could be just driving the $$ for the Yankees).

masterson doesn't project well as a starter, he has two pitches.

Have you looked at his opp. batting average each time through the line up? its bad. he's great the first time through, average the second time, and gets hammered the third (i forget the numbers, it was up on WEEI.com)

I like justin, just not as a starter. He should be a setup man, as his limited pitch selection means that he is lights out with both of them, but only for the first time through.

plus, im going to go ahead and blashmemy myself and say that once people see jacobey everyday, there going to realize that him and crisp arent that far apart except speed wise.

All these people who think ells is goign to be the second coming of damon, get ready to be disapointed.

Note that im not saying he won't be a good CF, i think he will be, just like coco is, But when he doesn;t hit .333 with 20+ HR's in an average year, i hope people don't turn on him like they did coco.

Red sox fans have a ridiculous expectation out of every position. CF in the nations mind is a power hitter spot with great speed. The reality is you want a fast contact guy who can play fantastic defense. but, as we saw with coco, thats not "flashy" enough for the new nation.

the pink hat motto: "omg he hits .280 with 10-15 HR's, what a scrub. whats that? his defense is saving us 1 run a game or so? f that, HR's are the bomb, lets put youk out there and grab texira."

[Redz]

Ramirez' career #'s.  Not much of a track record to look at.  There's always the potential of a guy coming from a small market and flopping in Boston (we've seen it plenty of times).  Hopefully not the case here.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/ramirra02.shtml

[Redz]

I also noticed this in his career transactions log:

December 27, 1996: Signed by the Texas Rangers as an amateur free agent.

June 4, 1998: Released by the Texas Rangers.

March 5, 2003: Signed as a Free Agent with the New York Yankees.

July 28, 2005: Traded by the New York Yankees with Eduardo Sierra (minors) to the Colorado Rockies for Shawn Chacon.

What was he doing between 1998 and 2003?  He must have been playing in the Dominican or something.  He signed as a 15 year old. 

[Chris]

Last year we all would have been pleased with this, but I think this year we saw a healthy Coco and giving up an every day centerfielder for a set up man is a bit iffy.

Rocco Baldelli can't be too far behind then (as a 4th outfielder).

Rocco in Red Sox would be awesome. I think it would be a brilliant signing.

Also, let's not forget to add Javier Lopez to that bullpen list. He was excellent last year and a bullpen with Paps, Masterson, Okijima, Manny, Lopez and this kid Ramirez would be excellent with only the need for a long relief guy needed to fill the bullpen up. Of course that guy will probably be our sixth starter, in reality, waiting for someone to get injured.

I would think that a Ramirez acquisition would move Masterson to the starting rotation (not sure where Clay fits in) -- but what confuses things a bit is the fact that the Sox are in negotiations with AJ Burnett (although they could be just driving the $$ for the Yankees).

masterson doesn't project well as a starter, he has two pitches.

Have you looked at his opp. batting average each time through the line up? its bad. he's great the first time through, average the second time, and gets hammered the third (i forget the numbers, it was up on WEEI.com)

I like justin, just not as a starter. He should be a setup man, as his limited pitch selection means that he is lights out with both of them, but only for the first time through.

plus, im going to go ahead and blashmemy myself and say that once people see jacobey everyday, there going to realize that him and crisp arent that far apart except speed wise.

All these people who think ells is goign to be the second coming of damon, get ready to be disapointed.

Note that im not saying he won't be a good CF, i think he will be, just like coco is, But when he doesn;t hit .333 with 20+ HR's in an average year, i hope people don't turn on him like they did coco.

Red sox fans have a ridiculous expectation out of every position. CF in the nations mind is a power hitter spot with great speed. The reality is you want a fast contact guy who can play fantastic defense. but, as we saw with coco, thats not "flashy" enough for the new nation.

the pink hat motto: "omg he hits .280 with 10-15 HR's, what a scrub. whats that? his defense is saving us 1 run a game or so? f that, HR's are the bomb, lets put youk out there and grab texira."

I don't want Jacoby to hit .333 with 20 homeruns.  I want him to have a .400 OBP with 75 stolen bases.  Ellsbury had a bad case of "homerun swing" last year, just like many highly touted rookies get.  I feel very confident he will work that out, and realize (or be told) that he is needs to be patterning himself more after Ichiro than Damon or Sizemore.

As for Masterson, I agree that right now, he is a much better reliever than starter.  He really needs a third pitch before he will be a consistent starter, and I think they are more likely to give the starting spots to guys like Bucholtz and Bowden, who are built to be starters.

If we want to read into this trade, it would tell me that one of the teams that the Sox are talking to for either a catcher, or a big bat (Fielder??) really wants Masterson.

More likely though, I think the Sox just thought it was good value (you can't have enough good, young, Bullpen arms), and they jumped at the opportunity.  They probably like the flexibility, but do not have an immediate plan to take advantage of it.

[crownsy]

Last year we all would have been pleased with this, but I think this year we saw a healthy Coco and giving up an every day centerfielder for a set up man is a bit iffy.

Rocco Baldelli can't be too far behind then (as a 4th outfielder).

Rocco in Red Sox would be awesome. I think it would be a brilliant signing.

Also, let's not forget to add Javier Lopez to that bullpen list. He was excellent last year and a bullpen with Paps, Masterson, Okijima, Manny, Lopez and this kid Ramirez would be excellent with only the need for a long relief guy needed to fill the bullpen up. Of course that guy will probably be our sixth starter, in reality, waiting for someone to get injured.

I would think that a Ramirez acquisition would move Masterson to the starting rotation (not sure where Clay fits in) -- but what confuses things a bit is the fact that the Sox are in negotiations with AJ Burnett (although they could be just driving the $$ for the Yankees).

masterson doesn't project well as a starter, he has two pitches.

Have you looked at his opp. batting average each time through the line up? its bad. he's great the first time through, average the second time, and gets hammered the third (i forget the numbers, it was up on WEEI.com)

I like justin, just not as a starter. He should be a setup man, as his limited pitch selection means that he is lights out with both of them, but only for the first time through.

plus, im going to go ahead and blashmemy myself and say that once people see jacobey everyday, there going to realize that him and crisp arent that far apart except speed wise.

All these people who think ells is goign to be the second coming of damon, get ready to be disapointed.

Note that im not saying he won't be a good CF, i think he will be, just like coco is, But when he doesn;t hit .333 with 20+ HR's in an average year, i hope people don't turn on him like they did coco.

Red sox fans have a ridiculous expectation out of every position. CF in the nations mind is a power hitter spot with great speed. The reality is you want a fast contact guy who can play fantastic defense. but, as we saw with coco, thats not "flashy" enough for the new nation.

the pink hat motto: "omg he hits .280 with 10-15 HR's, what a scrub. whats that? his defense is saving us 1 run a game or so? f that, HR's are the bomb, lets put youk out there and grab texira."

I don't want Jacoby to hit .333 with 20 homeruns.  I want him to have a .400 OBP with 75 stolen bases.  Ellsbury had a bad case of "homerun swing" last year, just like many highly touted rookies get.  I feel very confident he will work that out, and realize (or be told) that he is needs to be patterning himself more after Ichiro than Damon or Sizemore.

thats what you and i want chris, but thats not what pink hats want. they want HR's and power. Most of the new red sox fans could give 2 shakes about defense. It shows in how easy they dismiss coco's defense. I've had the conversation with pink hats i know and some at the park, the response to my "yea, he doesn't hit for power, but he's a good contact guy and saves us a run a game with his glove" is

"yea but he sucks with the bat dude, he can't drive the ball out at all! we need power outta center" ect, ect.

Its just like tec. now, he's a bad hitter, no question, but pink hats act like there's a ton of good hitting catchers around and we have the only bad one. there's like 4.

its the same with Centerfielders. Coco could start (and will) for 25+ teams in MLB, but here he's a scrub because he doesn't hit for power. Its annoying.

[Redz]

I have no doubt Ellsbury will work hard at his game and figure out a way to get his OBP up.  The guy can be a game changer on offense (as he already is on D), but as the old adage goes "you can't steal first base".  He walked just 41 times last year.  Still, he stole 50 bases and scored just under a hundred runs in his rookie season.  The guy is a major talent.

The big question is: Can Coco unseat Joakim Soria as the Royals All Star representative (man, I wish we could have traded for him)

[Chris]

thats what you and i want chris, but thats not what pink hats want. they want HR's and power. Most of the new red sox fans could give 2 shakes about defense. It shows in how easy they dismiss coco's defense. I've had the conversation with pink hats i know and some at the park, the response to my "yea, he doesn't hit for power, but he's a good contact guy and saves us a run a game with his glove" is

"yea but he sucks with the bat dude, he can't drive the ball out at all! we need power outta center" ect, ect.

Its just like tec. now, he's a bad hitter, no question, but pink hats act like there's a ton of good hitting catchers around and we have the only bad one. there's like 4.

its the same with Centerfielders. Coco could start (and will) for 25+ teams in MLB, but here he's a scrub because he doesn't hit for power. Its annoying.

Well, lets leave the pinkhat discussion out of it, since that is a whole other discussion. 

My problem with Crisp on this team is that he is not a leadoff hitter, and that is what this team needs.  Crisp is a 6-9 hitter, and a pretty good one.  Unfortunately, this team desperately needs a true leadoff hitter, who can get on base, create a little havoc, and set the table for Pedroia, Ortiz, and Youk.  If we had a SS who could hit leadoff, or something like that, then it would be completely different, but right now, we need that leadoff hitter to come out of Center field, and Ellsbury has much better leadoff hitter skills than Crisp.

Of course the problem is that Ellsbury hasn't quite figured out how to use those skills yet.  He should never be striking out and flying out at the rate that he does.  He has the bat control, and ability to slap the ball all over the ballpark to be an excellent leadoff hitter.  Crisp on the other hand is more of a dead fastball hitter, who has holes in his swing, but more power. 

[crownsy]

thats what you and i want chris, but thats not what pink hats want. they want HR's and power. Most of the new red sox fans could give 2 shakes about defense. It shows in how easy they dismiss coco's defense. I've had the conversation with pink hats i know and some at the park, the response to my "yea, he doesn't hit for power, but he's a good contact guy and saves us a run a game with his glove" is

"yea but he sucks with the bat dude, he can't drive the ball out at all! we need power outta center" ect, ect.

Its just like tec. now, he's a bad hitter, no question, but pink hats act like there's a ton of good hitting catchers around and we have the only bad one. there's like 4.

its the same with Centerfielders. Coco could start (and will) for 25+ teams in MLB, but here he's a scrub because he doesn't hit for power. Its annoying.

Well, lets leave the pinkhat discussion out of it, since that is a whole other discussion. 

My problem with Crisp on this team is that he is not a leadoff hitter, and that is what this team needs.  Crisp is a 6-9 hitter, and a pretty good one.  Unfortunately, this team desperately needs a true leadoff hitter, who can get on base, create a little havoc, and set the table for Pedroia, Ortiz, and Youk.  If we had a SS who could hit leadoff, or something like that, then it would be completely different, but right now, we need that leadoff hitter to come out of Center field, and Ellsbury has much better leadoff hitter skills than Crisp.

Of course the problem is that Ellsbury hasn't quite figured out how to use those skills yet.  He should never be striking out and flying out at the rate that he does.  He has the bat control, and ability to slap the ball all over the ballpark to be an excellent leadoff hitter.  Crisp on the other hand is more of a dead fastball hitter, who has holes in his swing, but more power. 

all true, TP.

and your right, not a productive discussion. i guess i'm just bitter at the utter amount of ridculous scapegoating that went on with regards to coco, who' only sin was not being the next johnny damon :/

[ma11l]

I do think we could have pushed a little more out of Coco's value.  The playoffs are always fresh in GM's minds and sometimes have a way of clouding their vision of the player's overall abilities (hello Danny Ainge and Brian Scalabrine). 


However I do think this is interesting for us.  I personally believe that either him or Delcarmen will be gone in a bigger deal.  I don't think they did this to be able to put Masterson on the market.  This guy is too unproven to do that.  I also don't think Masterson will start next year.  There are enough better starters in the free agency pool.  I want to see Masterson right where he was in the playoffs.


If nothing comes as a result in this deal I'm not too upset.  You can never have enough pitching depth, starting or in the bullpen.  With the potential versatility of Masterson this could give us depth in both.

[yall hate]

people didnt have a problem with coco because he didnt hit 20 hr's. 

People complained about his inability to hit the ball at all.  when he was traded for, if you remember, we gave up a kid that was, at the time, thought to be the best prospect in baseball (Andy Marte).  Coco was looked at as also a young guy who was getting better, a guy that could hit (not necessarily hr's, but instead could actually hit the ball).  fans were also sold on the fact that he was a top notch leadoff hitter.

He ended up being none of those things.  he was an excellent defender, who was semi streaky and went through some times where he could hit the ball, some time where he could bunt the ball and times where he couldnt hit for his life.

All that being said, I do believe he was held to a higher then normal standard (but thats every boston player)...hr's had nothing to do with it.  the expectations we were fed is why he was a failure here.

[Chris]

I do think we could have pushed a little more out of Coco's value.  The playoffs are always fresh in GM's minds and sometimes have a way of clouding their vision of the player's overall abilities (hello Danny Ainge and Brian Scalabrine). 

Although this was my first reaction too, I am not sure if it is actually the case.  Although Crisp had a nice end of the season and playoffs, his overall numbers are not great.  Essentially, for his entire career (except for one year when he hit .300), he has been a .260-.280 hitter without a ton of power, and a relatively low on base percentage.  So essentially he was an average at best offensive player.  Even with the great defense that he plays, $6 million -$8 million a year is a lot of money to pay for someone like that.

For a bigger market team, they are going to want more offensive production from their outfielders, and for a smaller market team, they are going to want more offensive production for that salary slot, which would likely be one of the larger ones on their entire team.

Then when you consider the amount of CFs out there right now, it simply is not a hard position to fill. 

I think the Sox realized last year (granted his value was lower...but I don't think his value changed as substantially as his perception did in fans minds) that there simply is not a huge market out there for guys like that.  So when a team came to them with an offer of a young, cost controlled back of the bullpen reliever, they jumped at it.  They knew that the chances of getting better offers were not great enough to pass up this offer.

[yall hate]

backing up what I was saying about expectations...

In 04 and 05, his last two years with Cleveland, as a 24 and 25 year old, he hit 15 and 16 homers, he had 146 and 178 hits, 71 and 69 rbi's, 297 and 300 avg.  In his 3 years in Boston, he never once hit that many hr's in 1 year, he never once got that many hits in one year, he never once got that many rbi's in one year, he never batted that avg in one year.

additionally, his OBP, SLG, OPS in his 3 years here never approached his last two years in Cleveland.

The regression from what we thought we were getting was across the board (with the exception of defense).

Thats why Crisp was a failure here.  not because he was a bad player, but because he wasnt the player the statistics indicated he would be.  At the age he was when we acquired him, he should have continued to get better, not get worse.

[yall hate]

 A summation of new Red Sox reliever Ramon Ramirez from a major league scout who watched him six times live this season:

"Throws 92-95 [mph] with a heavy, late-life fastball . . . Gets away with mistakes over the middle of the plate because his fastball has so much late life . . . second-best arm in that bullpen [to Joakim Soria] . . . Likes to challenge hitters . . . Definitely a setup man with potential to be a closer down the road . . . Plus fastball, plus slider, has a splitter or something that resembles a splitter . . . Average command . . . Deceptive delivery makes it hard for righthanded hitters to pick up his fastball . . . Hitters can't pick up his arm slot on the backside . . . Needs to tweak his off-speed pitches . . . Can throw his slider too hard . . . Very athletic. Fields his position well . . . Has an above-average 1.22 [second] release point [from the breaking of his hands to catchers mitt] on his slide step, 1.3 from the windup . . . Works fast."


    * He made his major league debut on April 14, 2006 and didn't allow a run until May 15, setting a Rockies rookie record for scoreless relief innings to start a career (15 1/3). It was the longest such streak since 2001.
   
    * His 21 holds ranked him seventh (tie) among American League relievers, and he was among AL relief leaders in innings (71 2/3 IP, 11th) and strikeouts (70 K, 13th).
 
    * He held righties to a .153 average, lowest in the AL and third-best in the majors among pitchers with at least 50 games. Only Chicago's Carlos Marmol (.103) and Philly's Brad Lidge (.105) were better.

[Tr1boy]

So what if you have only two great pitches?? Did schilling or randy johnson have anything but two pitches??

Masterson has a good fastball and deadly slider and he was good enough to be 6-2 last year as a starter.

If they trade him that will be a huge mistake

[yall hate]

So what if you have only two great pitches?? Did schilling or randy johnson have anything but two pitches??

Masterson has a good fastball and deadly slider and he was good enough to be 6-2 last year as a starter.

If they trade him that will be a huge mistake

I think Masterson will struggle as a starter because he is somewhat HR prone.  I think he can do it, certainly, but I would expect a regression from what we have seen from him in the bullpen.