ALCS Game 7: Sox-Rays, and the last game with Chip Caray-

[mahonedog88]

Tek had one hit all series. Never came through any time with men on base. Some people love Tek, b/c he'll sprint to the dugout to put on his catcher equipment after a K and people hate Manny b/c he jogs to a single when he should of had a double, but we missed the guy who would actually get some hits in the postseason. You might not like his hustle, but I totally disagree with those who said we could never win a WS with Manny. We won two with him, and would be in the WS again if we had his bat in the lineup. I have never been so hopeless as watching Tek ab after ab, but at least he hustles

which Manny are we talking about though, the Dodgers Manny, yes I agree we're likely in the series... the 08 Red Sox Manny, different story

Exactly.  I don't wanna hear any arguments that we would've made the world series if we had Manny.  We have Manny, then no Jason Bay, no Jason Bay then who hits the 2 run homer off John Lackey?  Who hits the 3 run shot against Ervin Santana?  You can't assume Manny would've.  Granted both the Twins and White Sox didn't finish strong so it doesn't really help my belief, but I was a firm believer in the fact that if Manny stayed here, we would NOT have made the playoffs. 

Well you are hearing the arguments. And there no reason why we couldn't of had Bay AND Manny. Might have taken another prospect from us, but we would have gotten that back when Manny left as a FA. We GAVE Manny away. Paid his salary, traded a couple prospects we could of used to ADD to the team and gave up the two picks. We GAVE Manny away. And that would be fine if we had enough of a lineup to still win or Manny was toast, but neither was true. We missed Manny. Many people love "gamers" like Tek and timlin, but you also need some lethal sluggers to win in the playoffs. We were missing one.

But you have to realize that Jason Bay wasn't on our radar to acquire in the first place.  We weren't looking to get Jason Bay this season, we were looking to get rid of Manny.  It just happened to be that the trade Manny was involved in was the Pirates.

And this team would've fallen apart if Manny was here.  You didn't hear about the survey a Boston writer took (can't remember which writer though) with the whole club?  They asked every single player, starter, fielder, bullpen, doesn't matter...they asked every player after the trade whether or not they thought trading Manny was a good idea.  Every single player except ONE said Manny had to go.  And that one wasn't even Big Papi.  This team wouldn't have been able to concentrate with Manny on it.

[mahonedog88]

Well, this loss doesn't hurt as much as I thought. Maybe it's because I'm excited for the Celtics or because the Sox went further than I thought they would.

Yup.  I'm not going to get all upset about this one.  Tampa played a better series.  They got nervous and coughed up Game 5.  They gave the Sox a window tonight and they couldn't get the big hit.

Would have been nice to see a healthy Lowell in the lineup instead of Kotsay.  It was a fun season and Tampa deserves it.

It will be interesting off season, but the future is bright for the SOx.

GO CELTS!

Good point.  It'll be interesting to see what they do with the money available now that Manny's contract is gone.

[Hollywoodhackk]

We can all second guess till were blue in the face, the way I see it The Rays were just better.  I just hope to hell thats the last baseball game I have to watch on TBS.  They put out a terrible product and should stick to baseketball and leave Baseball to Fox and ESPN. Also  I couldnt listen to that guy mispronounce Ortiz anymore.

[ma11l]

They fought gamely against the better team this series.  I thought they were going to come through in the 8th, that was disappointing.  Overall Tampa deserved to win and move on. 


That was a pretty good run defending the title.  It's not an easy thing to do, and they came closer than after 04.  There were some great moments, great memories, great games. 


Luckily for us sports run in cycles.  The end of the baseball season means the beginning of the basketball season.  Let's go C's.

[Nerf DPOY]

Well, this loss doesn't hurt as much as I thought. Maybe it's because I'm excited for the Celtics or because the Sox went further than I thought they would.

Yup.  I'm not going to get all upset about this one.  Tampa played a better series.  They got nervous and coughed up Game 5.  They gave the Sox a window tonight and they couldn't get the big hit.

Would have been nice to see a healthy Lowell in the lineup instead of Kotsay.  It was a fun season and Tampa deserves it.

It will be interesting off season, but the future is bright for the SOx.

GO CELTS!

Like you, I'm more philosophical about this year than usual. After all, while we had career years from Youk/Pedroia/Dice-K/Lester, we had to wrestle with disappointing seasons from Beckett/Lowell/Papi/Tek, and the whole Manny debacle. All that considered, we still came within a few runs from the World Series.

This season reminds me somewhat of the Pats 06-07, with many injuries and no WR's they still came within a few downs of going to the Super Bowl. If that year is any indication, the 'Sox will sign Sabathia and Teixeira this offseason, go 162-0, and then blow it in the World Series against the San Francisco Giants. It should be a fun ride.

[yall hate]

But you have to realize that Jason Bay wasn't on our radar to acquire in the first place.  We weren't looking to get Jason Bay this season, we were looking to get rid of Manny.  It just happened to be that the trade Manny was involved in was the Pirates.

this actually isnt true at all.  It was widely reported that Jason Bay was THE player that they wanted.  It is why, the night before when it was reported he was going to be traded to Tampa Bay that we heard all about how Manny wasnt going to be traded. 

They identified Bay as the type of player who would fit into their lineup, provide some of what MAnny did, while also being a bargain salary wise next year. 

Bay was no accident, he was their target.

[Chris]

But you have to realize that Jason Bay wasn't on our radar to acquire in the first place.  We weren't looking to get Jason Bay this season, we were looking to get rid of Manny.  It just happened to be that the trade Manny was involved in was the Pirates.

this actually isnt true at all.  It was widely reported that Jason Bay was THE player that they wanted.  It is why, the night before when it was reported he was going to be traded to Tampa Bay that we heard all about how Manny wasnt going to be traded. 

They identified Bay as the type of player who would fit into their lineup, provide some of what MAnny did, while also being a bargain salary wise next year. 

Bay was no accident, he was their target.

This is true.  But the two were connected.  They wanted Bay to replace Manny, they did not want both of them.  There is no way they would have traded for Bay if they didn't trade Manny.  For one thing it would have cost them much more value, but they also would be looking for a place to play him.

[johnnyrondo]

But you have to realize that Jason Bay wasn't on our radar to acquire in the first place.  We weren't looking to get Jason Bay this season, we were looking to get rid of Manny.  It just happened to be that the trade Manny was involved in was the Pirates.

this actually isnt true at all.  It was widely reported that Jason Bay was THE player that they wanted.  It is why, the night before when it was reported he was going to be traded to Tampa Bay that we heard all about how Manny wasnt going to be traded. 

They identified Bay as the type of player who would fit into their lineup, provide some of what MAnny did, while also being a bargain salary wise next year. 

Bay was no accident, he was their target.

This is true.  But the two were connected.  They wanted Bay to replace Manny, they did not want both of them.  There is no way they would have traded for Bay if they didn't trade Manny.  For one thing it would have cost them much more value, but they also would be looking for a place to play him.

Wouldn't have cost much more and play Bay at first if need be. Personally Bay was pretty lousy in LF. I've seen stats that actually say he was worse in left than Manny. Not saying I agree, but its debateable at least. Losing Moss's bat hurt some too. He could also play some first. Paying an old Lowell big bucks after a strong contract yr turned out to be wasted money too. Oft injured players don't usually become more durable as they get older. I'd take Bay at first or Moss at first. Anyone over kotsay. Rotoworld had this to say about kotsay:

"Mark Kotsay went hitless on Sunday to finish the postseason without an RBI in 40 at-bats.
Letting him face David Price in the ninth was another stroke of genius. Kotsay hit with 20 batters on in the ALCS and didn't drive in any of them. The Red Sox almost surely would have won the series anyway if not for Terry Francona butchering Game 2, but the team really missed Mike Lowell. Kotsay started every game but one in the postseason, yet he scored just two runs and never worked a single walk while swinging at the first pitch a great deal of the time."

Theo once again didn't make smart moves trying to repeat. Spending money on vets Lowell and Schilling, trying to trade Lester, Masterson, Coco, and Lowrie for Santana (thankfully Minny turned us down b/c the guys they really wanted were Bucholtz and ellsbury), and spending the trade deadline subtracting manny and moss and not adding to the bullpen. The Sox have such an advantage b/c of their payroll and its frustrating to lose to Tampa. Honest question: What cost more Tampa's payroll or what were paying Lowell and schilling on the DL and Manny on the Dodgers?

[Chris]

Wouldn't have cost much more and play Bay at first if need be. Personally Bay was pretty lousy in LF. I've seen stats that actually say he was worse in left than Manny. Not saying I agree, but its debateable at least. Losing Moss's bat hurt some too. He could also play some first. Paying an old Lowell big bucks after a strong contract yr turned out to be wasted money too. Oft injured players don't usually become more durable as they get older. I'd take Bay at first or Moss at first. Anyone over kotsay. Rotoworld had this to say about kotsay:

Wouldn't cost much more?  It would have cost at least one more top level prospect, and a B level.  The Dodgers sent Andy Laroche (who was ranked the 25th best prospect in all of baseball by Keith Law before the season...the only Sox prospect ahead of him was Ellsbury).  So the Sox would probably have had to include Lars Anderson to replace him.  And then Bryan Morris who was another top 10 prospect for the Dodgers.  So you are looking at sending a top prospect, a couple high prospects who are already in the majors, and a B prospect.

And why would they put Bay at first?  They already had a gold glove quality first baseman who was an MVP candidate, and at the time, they had a gold glove 3rd baseman who they just signed to a contract extension, and is the reigning World Series MVP.  Just doesn't make sense.

[vjcsmoke]

Theo once again didn't make smart moves trying to repeat. Spending money on vets Lowell and Schilling, trying to trade Lester, Masterson, Coco, and Lowrie for Santana (thankfully Minny turned us down b/c the guys they really wanted were Bucholtz and ellsbury), and spending the trade deadline subtracting manny and moss and not adding to the bullpen. The Sox have such an advantage b/c of their payroll and its frustrating to lose to Tampa. Honest question: What cost more Tampa's payroll or what were paying Lowell and schilling on the DL and Manny on the Dodgers?

Man, I kinda wished that we had dealt Ellsbury and Buccholz for Santanna now!  Sheesh, hindsight is so 20/20!
Who knew they were gonna fall apart in 2008 right?

Right now the Red Sox need to prioritize on getting a new catcher.  Everything else will flow from that.  Veritek can come back only if he takes vet min and can accept being a backup.  The black hole in the lineup must go!

[johnnyrondo]

Wouldn't have cost much more and play Bay at first if need be. Personally Bay was pretty lousy in LF. I've seen stats that actually say he was worse in left than Manny. Not saying I agree, but its debateable at least. Losing Moss's bat hurt some too. He could also play some first. Paying an old Lowell big bucks after a strong contract yr turned out to be wasted money too. Oft injured players don't usually become more durable as they get older. I'd take Bay at first or Moss at first. Anyone over kotsay. Rotoworld had this to say about kotsay:

Wouldn't cost much more?  It would have cost at least one more top level prospect, and a B level.  The Dodgers sent Andy Laroche (who was ranked the 25th best prospect in all of baseball by Keith Law before the season...the only Sox prospect ahead of him was Ellsbury).  So the Sox would probably have had to include Lars Anderson to replace him.  And then Bryan Morris who was another top 10 prospect for the Dodgers.  So you are looking at sending a top prospect, a couple high prospects who are already in the majors, and a B prospect.

And why would they put Bay at first?  They already had a gold glove quality first baseman who was an MVP candidate, and at the time, they had a gold glove 3rd baseman who they just signed to a contract extension, and is the reigning World Series MVP.  Just doesn't make sense.

They'd play Bay at first b/c he's a much better hitter than the other OF they moved to first, Kotsay. Both Lowell and ortiz weren't close to 100%, thus the Sox interest in Giles, b/c they needed another bat. Personally i wouldn't sign an oft injured older player to a contract extention b/c he was "the reigning WS mvp" in your words. He did have a good contract year, but trust me we'll be paying someone to take on that contract just as we did with Renteria and are going to do with lugo.

What Laroche was before the season is not the same as what he was in mid summer. It's like saying Bucholtz has more value than Lester, because last offseason he did. A lot had fallen off of Laroche's value. We would of had to add another prospect or two, but we'd be getting two prospects back when Manny left this offseason (and we had a whole Winter to replace him). So no, it wouldn't have cost much more.

I'm not saying that they should have added Bay if they kept Manny. just pointing out that it was possible and wouldn't cost much more. We needed another bat and we didn't get it at the deadline. We got Bay and kotsay (shortly after) and lost Manny and Moss. We also didn't add to the bullpen.

All these people were saying "who needs manny?" in the ALDS and would be the first to say the same thing if we won now, but we didn't and the truth is he was exactly what we needed, a clutch postseason hitter. We had tons of "gamers" like kotsay and tek and lowrie and cora, but in the postseason you need elite arms and elite sluggers. Again I'm not saying you can't be disgusted with Manny antics, but all the people saying we were better without him and they'd rather pay for him to play for the Dodgers are wrong imo. We won two World Series's with Manny as the costar of our lineup (with Papi). Without Manny we don't even make those two World Series's imo... just like without Manny we didn't make it this year. Manny's postseason stats are out of this world. He steps it up against the top pitchers in baseball on its biggest stage. I don't understand Red Sox fans need to bash every former star after they leave town (Clemens, pedro, Boggs, damon, Nomar, Manny, Mo Vaughn, etc). Just because the boston sports media does, doesn't mean fans have to as well. Wait, in a year or two, everyone will be bashing Ortiz. So lame.

[johnnyrondo]

Ortiz's opinion on the matter: ( http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=caple_jim&id=3652621 )

Boston stranded eight baserunners Sunday, which refuels the question whether the Red Sox would have won the series had Manny Ramirez still been in the lineup. Or would they have even got this far with him in the clubhouse? Did Jason Bay hit well enough this postseason to compensate? We'll never know the answer, but Ortiz is convinced the Sox missed his old teammate.

"Of course,'' he said. "You know that Manny is the type of guy who knows how to get it done. Manny is one the best hitters in the game. Who wouldn't miss Manny? You know what I mean? I'm not going to lie to you.''

[CoachBo]

Not a Sox fan.

But ... thought Francona really managed a ghastly eighth inning. How you don't have Pedroia bunting first and second with nobody out escapes me.

Two bad things can happen: He hits into a double play, or he makes an out without advancing the runners. You have to leave that situation at least down only 3-2 to have a chance in the ninth.

[SShorefan 3.0]

First of all, since 2003 the Red Sox have played in 4 ALCS game 7s and have swept 2 World Series.  We, as fans, have nothing to complain about.

I predict the following:
- Ortiz and Beckett will join Lowell in going under the knife.
- Timlin retires
- The Sox actively shop either Crisp or Bay along with a boatload of prospects for another power hitter
- The Sox offer Youk a long term deal.
- After looking really hard for a replacement for Varitek, the Sox offer him a 2 year deal.
- The Sox look for a solid 4th starter and if they find one, it could be the end of Wakefield.
- Masterson & Bucholtz fight it out for the 5th starter spot with the loser moving to the pen (perhaps they leave Masterson there)
- Jake Peavy does not come to Boston.
- Lugo accepts the role of utility infielder and Cora moves on.
- Manny ends up in either LA or San Fran.
- The Sox move out of Fort Meyers, screwing over all the New England retirees who settled there just because the Sox were there.
- Larry Luchinno moves on, most likely to LA
- The Globe and Herald will cover the moving vans leaving Fenway, kicking off the 09 season and all will be better.

[Redz]

Not a Sox fan.

But ... thought Francona really managed a ghastly eighth inning. How you don't have Pedroia bunting first and second with nobody out escapes me.

Two bad things can happen: He hits into a double play, or he makes an out without advancing the runners. You have to leave that situation at least down only 3-2 to have a chance in the ninth.

You don't have Pedroia bunt because he's been one a league best hitters all year long - especially in the clutch. If you have him bunt, they walk Papi (which may be doing the Sox a favor), and you still end up with the bases loaded. 

The Sox lost because they were outpitched in the series.  Say all you want about the big bats of Tampa, but as a whole their starting pitching kicked the Sox' butt.

You can say Francona should have done this that or the other, but as well as Lester pitched last night he didn't pitch well enough.

It's so much easier to say this because the Sox have had such success, but this team overcame a lot get this far and gave us a hell of a season.  They beat the team with teh best record in baseball to get to the ALCS, and forced an improbable 7 game series against a team that could not possible have been any hotter than they were.

Baseball is made for second guessing and nitpicking - and that's part of the fun of it as a fan, but honestly, Tampa deserved this series.  An incredibly impressive performance by a team that clearly was battling the jitters with the series on the line, but overcame it.