I'm questioning Ainge

[Roy Hobbs]

Eh.  I think BC's argument is undercut because he counts Pruitt among the 11 players.  Even an injured Powe is much more valuable to this team than Gabe Pruitt.

If he can´t play, he can´t play. You´re stretching the term "value" here.

What happens if Perk´s shoulder worries him in the next playoffs, and all we have is the ancient Sheed, Big Baby and an injured Leon Powe? What happens if he can never play again, and we´re stuck with his contract? I´m not willing to take too many gambles with this team, we did it last off-season, and it brought us Mikki Moore.

If Perk's shoulder goes, this team is screwed regardless.  If we're signing Rasheed and BBD, I don't see how anybody could complain about Danny not shoring up the position.  What additional free agent would you have the team sign in place of Powe?  In terms of "risk / reward" gambling, there won't be a better player on the market than Leon Powe.  If he pans out, you get a top-notch rebounder and solid post scorer for the NBA minimum.  It seems silly to preclude that.

Come on, let`s be real, Perk isn`t that important. He`s not KG. Baby was already on the team, so it`s not an upgrade when he comes back. Again, the Celtics didn`t close the door for Leon without opening a window. The pure fact that Leon is a "gamble" shows you that he`s misplaced on a contender. And I think you underrate how much of a gamble 3 torn ACL´s are.

I guess I'm not understanding what you're arguing.  I think Perk is *very* important; I don't think we'll be able to contain Howard or Shaq without him.  However, weren't you the one arguing that Powe would somehow stop the team from competing if there was a Perk injury?  Who are we going to sign otherwise that Powe's presence would stop us from acquiring?

Also, we have 15 roster spots.  A team can afford to gamble on a player, especially if you fill the other 14 spots with players who can legitimately play.  You can keep a guy who sucks -- like Pruitt -- or you can keep a guy who has shown that he's a very good role player when healthy.  In the prior case, you know what you have, and it's not very good.  Cut Pruitt, bring back Powe. 

Pruitt doesn't have much value at all.  I mean, if another team is jonesing that much for a minimum-salaried expiring contract, we can do a sign-and-trade with just about any bench-warmer in the league.

He can make salaries match. Not much value at all > injured Leon Powe
We already have no real assets to trade as it is.

Pruitt makes a minimum salary.  If we need to make salaries match, we can simply sign-and-trade a minimum salaried player, as I said.  A minimum salary doesn't have much trade value at all.

With Powe, it's a gamble.  This team has paid players like Sam Cassell, Patrick O'Bryant, etc., to do little more than to take up a roster spot.  I think it's stupid to refuse to do so when there's a player you *know* is capable of being a double-double machine sitting at the end of the bench.  Danny's decision not to even offer him a minimum contract until at least February is stupid and nonsensical.

And we all criticized him for Paddy O`Blount (those of us who can think clearly).
But for Leon, we should make an excuse and sign another gamble? I like Leon, but I don`t like him more than the green jersey.

POB was a gamble on a player who always sucked, and always will suck.  Leon has been a top performer, a hard worker, a leader, and a role model.  I'd rather have him taking up a roster spot than the crap Danny has focused on in recent years.

[Chris]

With Powe, it's a gamble.  This team has paid players like Sam Cassell, Patrick O'Bryant, etc., to do little more than to take up a roster spot.  I think it's stupid to refuse to do so when there's a player you *know* is capable of being a double-double machine sitting at the end of the bench.  Danny's decision not to even offer him a minimum contract until at least February is stupid and nonsensical.

OK, I am being lazy, and did not read the rest of the thread, and have only read a few articles the last few days (I am actually neglecting my trainees right now, just to read this much and post), but did Ainge actually say that he would not offer a minimum contract until February, or is that just speculation?

What I read was that Danny said it could be revisited in August to see how the knee was healing.  Did he also say he wouldn't consider signing him until he is completely ready to return?

If that is the case, then I agree, it is shortsighted (well, on the surface...they may know that the estimates of him coming back at all this season are incredibly optimistic, in which case, it would be a tough risk).  However, if they are just going to wait until August or September to address it, and see what their roster looks like, and how he is healing, then I think it makes a lot of sense.

I also think a lot of Powe's fate will depend on Davis.  If Davis resigns for a couple years, I expect that Powe will be gone, since they were somewhat redundant anyways, but if Davis walks, suddenly Powe makes more sense, depth-wise.

Here's a question though.  If Robert Swift is healthy, and performs well in the summerleague, who do you think would be a smarter player to sign for this next season?  Considering they both have significant injury concerns, but also have both shown flashes of greatness (or goodness I suppose), I would go with the one who is healthy when he signs.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Wether Pruitt makes the team or not is quite inconsequential. His roster spot is better served by either a other PG or a Center... not a heavily injured player that may or may not play.

We have plenty of PF's in this team at the moment (or plan to have), using another roster spot on him would not be wise. Again, we have prepared for the eventuality that only one of Baby and Powe would get to stay with the team.

IF Ainge manages to make some trades and open up some roster spaces, then sure, Powe can be signed... but until that happens, until Ainge has exhausted all options of players that can actually play this year, there's simply no space for Powe and his injury regardless of the Pruitts and the Hudsons making the team or not.

[Roy Hobbs]

With Powe, it's a gamble.  This team has paid players like Sam Cassell, Patrick O'Bryant, etc., to do little more than to take up a roster spot.  I think it's stupid to refuse to do so when there's a player you *know* is capable of being a double-double machine sitting at the end of the bench.  Danny's decision not to even offer him a minimum contract until at least February is stupid and nonsensical.

OK, I am being lazy, and did not read the rest of the thread, and have only read a few articles the last few days (I am actually neglecting my trainees right now, just to read this much and post), but did Ainge actually say that he would not offer a minimum contract until February, or is that just speculation?

Here's what the Herald reported:

Reached today, Ainge said he would still be interested in signing Powe, though only after he recovers from knee surgery.

Since that isn't a direct quote, it may be inaccurate, but that's the report.

[ssspence]

With Powe, it's a gamble.  This team has paid players like Sam Cassell, Patrick O'Bryant, etc., to do little more than to take up a roster spot.  I think it's stupid to refuse to do so when there's a player you *know* is capable of being a double-double machine sitting at the end of the bench.  Danny's decision not to even offer him a minimum contract until at least February is stupid and nonsensical.

OK, I am being lazy, and did not read the rest of the thread, and have only read a few articles the last few days (I am actually neglecting my trainees right now, just to read this much and post), but did Ainge actually say that he would not offer a minimum contract until February, or is that just speculation?

What I read was that Danny said it could be revisited in August to see how the knee was healing.  Did he also say he wouldn't consider signing him until he is completely ready to return?

If that is the case, then I agree, it is shortsighted (well, on the surface...they may know that the estimates of him coming back at all this season are incredibly optimistic, in which case, it would be a tough risk).  However, if they are just going to wait until August or September to address it, and see what their roster looks like, and how he is healing, then I think it makes a lot of sense.

I also think a lot of Powe's fate will depend on Davis.  If Davis resigns for a couple years, I expect that Powe will be gone, since they were somewhat redundant anyways, but if Davis walks, suddenly Powe makes more sense, depth-wise.

Here's a question though.  If Robert Swift is healthy, and performs well in the summerleague, who do you think would be a smarter player to sign for this next season?  Considering they both have significant injury concerns, but also have both shown flashes of greatness (or goodness I suppose), I would go with the one who is healthy when he signs.

Leon has obviously proved alot more in this league and every other league he's played in. Swift has NO experience. Powe.

[expobear]

If theres uncertainty in when he can play, why are other clubs calling him? A questionable offseason last year coupled with the issues on Leon Powe and Rajon Rondo has not sat too well with me. Im not quite there yet with the"Danny I Trust" motto. Bill Belichick only has that privilege around here.  

This is just a classless move at the end of it and leaves a bad taste. Ainge is deserving of his title in his playing days.

Powe was never seen as anything more than the 9th or 10th guy off the bench by management.
His potential was seen as limited and now, with a very serious, career threatening injury, whatever potential management had seen in Powe, is virtually gone. The Celtics treatment of Powe reflects this type of thinking.

Personally, I thought Powe could be a 15/8 player with the Celtics and even a 20/10 man with the right team. Seeing how Powe was used the past 2 years, I don't think management held Powe in the same light.  Powe was always going to be a 15 minute bench player spelling the likes of Garnett and or BBD. That being said, although still thinking Powe's treatment sucks, this could be the best thing for Powe's career.  Here's hoping for a quick and speedy recovery for Leon.

[vwoodruff]

One statement that seems to be overlooked by some folks is Leon's impression that Danny said the window is two years and we can't waste a roster spot on you. If this is true, then people's arguments that Ainge can pick him up for the minimum later is inconsistent.

I argue that they should pick him up for the minimum now. I understand not giving him a QO. THat is a no-brainer. But not even a minimum salary? Come on... at some point chemistry and loyalty matter. There is a great deal of respect in the clubhouse for Powe and his work. WHy even risk it for a figure that would count for - what? - 1% of the payroll?

Based on Larry Coon's FAQ, a minimum contract for Powe would cost $855,189. About $30,000 of that would be reimbursed by the league, which means Powe would cost the Cs  $825k, plus luxury tax implications. SO, in total Powe would cost the Cs $1.6M. Here's the rub... no matter who the Cs pickup for a minimum salary player, they're paying that figure.

I wonder how other players will perceive Ainge's dealings with Powe. Will they see it as understandable? Or will they get the Antione "snake" impression?

BTW... I've been driving the Ainge bandwagon since he took over.

[Chris]

With Powe, it's a gamble.  This team has paid players like Sam Cassell, Patrick O'Bryant, etc., to do little more than to take up a roster spot.  I think it's stupid to refuse to do so when there's a player you *know* is capable of being a double-double machine sitting at the end of the bench.  Danny's decision not to even offer him a minimum contract until at least February is stupid and nonsensical.

OK, I am being lazy, and did not read the rest of the thread, and have only read a few articles the last few days (I am actually neglecting my trainees right now, just to read this much and post), but did Ainge actually say that he would not offer a minimum contract until February, or is that just speculation?

Here's what the Herald reported:

Reached today, Ainge said he would still be interested in signing Powe, though only after he recovers from knee surgery.

Since that isn't a direct quote, it may be inaccurate, but that's the report.

Hmmm, OK, that is a pretty vague statement, and open to interpretation.  Personally, I think they will revisit it later this summer, and consider signing him if the knee is healing properly, and he looks like he could return this season. 

It really makes no sense to sign him right now, where the market hasn't set itself, and the knee has barely been closed up.  But in another 2 months or so, they should know a lot more about the condition of the knee, as well as the condition of their team.

Given the current market, I think it is not outside the realm of possibility that the C's are actually able to fill their roster with quality NBA players on minimum contracts.  And with Powe's game relying so heavily on his quickness and athleticism, even if he is back in February, it seems like a longshot that he will be anywhere close to being good enough to actually see the floor this year. 

[MBunge]

I'd like to have Powe back, but I think there's a basic equation being overlooked here.

1.  Resigning BBD is a must, though if the Pistons are willing to give Charlie V 8 million a year, who knows what it might take.

2.  The Celtics must have a legitimate back up 5, whether it's Sheed or someone else.

3.  Powe is too slow to play the three and lacks the height or bulk to play the 5.

Add that together with the Cs need to pay a legitimate back up PG and a legitimate backup swingman.

So, why should the Cs concern themselves right now with an undersized 4 coming off a serious injury, who wouldn't play more than 10 minutes a game in the best case scenario?  If Ainge loses out on Sheed, Dice or any of the other decent bigs on the market AND he's managed to shore up the other positions of need, THEN I'd be the first one loudly calling for Powe to be brought back.  It doesn't make any sense to do it now.

Mike

[ScoobyDoo]

I'd rather go down swinging and lose with Leon as my 14th man this season than win without him and having some other 14th man who gives us absolutely zero anyways.

Leon has earned his spot on this team.

[crownsy]

I'd rather go down swinging and lose with Leon as my 14th man this season than win without him and having some other 14th man who gives us absolutely zero anyways.

Leon has earned his spot on this team.

I love leon powe, but this is business, not 8th grade girls basketball. Being a good bench player with a heartwarming story doesn't earn you anything other than my praise, thanks, and the money you';ve already been payed.

I hope it works out that we have a 15th spot and we pick him up, and he goes onto a great celtic's career, but if not i'll understand why.

It sucks he's so injury prone, but such is life.

[bobdelt]

Alright so you had room to keep Sam Cassell on our club so he could sit on the sidelines and watch Doc coach (maybe not the best one to watch), but you dont have room for Leon Powe? You can sign Scal to 5 years 3 mil but you cant make Powe an offer...Powe has outplayed Brian Scalabrine tremendously as a Celtic and he has been here one less year.

I dont know about the extent of the injury and how drastic it will affect his play, but I do know that Powe will come to work everyday. He laced it up when his team needed him and reinjured a knee that he put on the line despite it plaguing his career. I want him on my team. Why is it that when athletes make business decisions they get destroyed and played off as greedy and money loving, but when GMs make business decisons its smart?
 
And I really didnt understand the Rondo talk and rumors. This offseason, Ainge has put the Celtics on T.V. for the wrong reasons. Trying to trade your franchise "top 5" PG  and talking smack about him on the radio? Is it that month Danny? That should not represent our management. The decisions until these two have been great, so im not counting you out entirely but stay out of the spotlight. The players put the work in to win a championship, and Leon has clearly done so here.

As of right now, He's probably not capable of running down the court. Why give him a contract? We can sign him later if he proves he's healthy.

[vagrantwade]

I'd rather go down swinging and lose with Leon as my 14th man this season than win without him and having some other 14th man who gives us absolutely zero anyways.

Leon has earned his spot on this team.

You would rather lose with Powe than win without?

Celtics fan or Leon Powe fan?

[Jon]

And let's not get ahead of ourselves.  Powe may end up here before all is said and done.  I think for that happens, Danny may need to make a trade to dump some contracts and to get a little more front court depth to survive until he comes back. 

[paintitgreen]

I don't think Powe will be back but still have some hope. I've said before, we probably need the roster spots for other guys. It sucks that, for example, Tony Allen is one of those guys, because that's a mistake Ainge made last year. Now, we're saddled with that $2.5 million contract. I hope it is flipped into something of value. If it isn't (and we really won't know that till midseason), I'll be really bummed that he steals a spot that could be used to store Powe. Same for Pruitt and probably Giddens. Like I said before, there are a lot of guys who I can't justify losing Powe for. Those are some of them. But remember, last year is last year, so the fact that we had POB and Cassell on our roster last year doesn't mean we should have Powe this year. If we had 14 roster spots on August 25, and last year's version of Cassell and this year's version of Powe were our two options, I guarantee Powe would be the choice. 

So on that level, I'll wait to see what happens. I agree we have to wait right now to see what else we can get. I agree with the decision not to extend a qualifying offer to him (if you're gonna sink costs in him for the recovery year, you need to get an option for good value in the post-recovery year, plus why pay him more in a QO than you could get for him otherwise?). There's no reason to go out now and sign somebody you may have to waive before the season starts, since you not only forfeit the salary paid to the player (which, in the case of Powe, who was hurt while helping our team, I'd have no problem with paying to Powe) but also an equivalent amount in luxury tax (why should the league's dregs get to share any amount of money that we agreed to give Powe out of respect for his past service even though we can't keep him?).

Like I said, I will be upset if we lose Powe because we have a bunch of other crappy undeserving players because they have bad contracts given out in previous years and we can't afford to waive them or someone has an irrational hope that a guy will become good (i.e., TA, Pruitt, Robert Swift, etc.) However, if we lose him because we have 15 guys more deserving of other spots and/or another team was willing to take the risk before we were, then that's the nature of the business. And if Powe gets paid somewhere, I'll be happy for him. So I'm reserving my anger.

I would be upset about right now, however, if the comments attributed to Danny are true. If he really told Powe that we wouldn't consider signing him until he is done with his rehab, and he's too much of a risk, then, as I've said in another post, I think that's being unnecessarily cold. But you have to realize, that may just be how Powe took it. It's personal for him, regardless of whether it's personal for Ainge, so he may see things differently than how they actually happened.

So I agree with Ainge's business decisions on Powe thus far this summer (though I disagree with several business decisions that have contributed to the present situation, such as giving Tony a two-year, $5 million contract last summer, and will disagree if certain players have roster spots over Powe), Ainge's communications with Powe may leave something to be desired and he may (depending on what the communications actually were) deserve criticism for them. I do think that Ainge should have taken the time and care to explain clearly to Powe what's going on.

Specifically, I think he should have said something like "Leon, we like you a lot. As you know, we have a small window to win championships with KG, Paul and Ray, and we have to capitalize on that window. We have several holes to fill and not a lot of flexibility. Filling those holes requires us to bring in players through free agency reducing available roster spots. I hope that we can find a way to fill those holes through trades and free agency so that we have a roster spot open in the next couple of months and can keep you in Boston to recuperate and come back with the Celtics. However, because of our present situation, we cannot commit to having an available space right now, until we make some moves in free agency and the trade market. As soon as it becomes apparent that we have a roster space for you, I will contact you. I understand that in the meantime you have to, and should, listen and talk to other teams and do what's right for your future. I just want you to know that we all truly appreciate what you've done for us and hope that we can find a way to continue our relationship with you. Unfortunately, I just can't tell you right now what we'll be able to do."