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I'm questioning Ainge
« on: July 02, 2009, 02:05:49 AM »

Offline Amir

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Alright so you had room to keep Sam Cassell on our club so he could sit on the sidelines and watch Doc coach (maybe not the best one to watch), but you dont have room for Leon Powe? You can sign Scal to 5 years 3 mil but you cant make Powe an offer...Powe has outplayed Brian Scalabrine tremendously as a Celtic and he has been here one less year.

I dont know about the extent of the injury and how drastic it will affect his play, but I do know that Powe will come to work everyday. He laced it up when his team needed him and reinjured a knee that he put on the line despite it plaguing his career. I want him on my team. Why is it that when athletes make business decisions they get destroyed and played off as greedy and money loving, but when GMs make business decisons its smart?
 
And I really didnt understand the Rondo talk and rumors. This offseason, Ainge has put the Celtics on T.V. for the wrong reasons. Trying to trade your franchise "top 5" PG  and talking smack about him on the radio? Is it that month Danny? That should not represent our management. The decisions until these two have been great, so im not counting you out entirely but stay out of the spotlight. The players put the work in to win a championship, and Leon has clearly done so here.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 08:50:08 AM by Redz »

Re: Im questioning Ainge
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2009, 02:11:50 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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I've stated this same argument in about three different threads. I think BudweiserCeltic summed it all up best.

I don't understand the outrage at all. There's no space for him at the moment, sad story but "crap" happens.

We have 11 players currently in our roster. Then we have Big Baby, that's 12. We plan to add another PF/C (Rasheed)... that's 13. We plan to add another SF (Ross, Hill, Barnes, etc.), that's 14. We are probably looking for another PG (Hudson, Marbury, etc.). That's 15.

Where does Powe and his massive injury fit at the moment? Nowhere. We could probably cur Pruitt, but it won't be to add an injured player... who knows, maybe he starts playing better. You can't make Pruitt the victim here, he deserves the chance to make the roster.

Before this happened, there were tons of speculations that this coming FA season, the Celtics will have to choose between Baby and Powe... by the majority this was an accepted turn of events, well we chose one. Too bad Powe is injured, but we're not a charity here.
I love Powe, but not extending him the QO and saying we won't offer him a contract until after we've finished filling out our bench makes sense. We don't know if Powe will be able to contribute at all this coming season.


You talk about Sam Cassell, but we didn't sign him until the summer FA was already all over and we had extra room. If we have only 14 players I'm sure Ainge will be calling Powe up about a minimum deal.

Re: Im questioning Ainge
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2009, 02:19:13 AM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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I'm sorry for Leon but its a business. If he doesn't get an offer i'm sure we'll pick him up once he's all healed from his injury. But we don't have the space on our roster to sign someone and sit him down.


Re: Im questioning Ainge
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2009, 02:20:23 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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I'm sorry for Leon but its a business. If he doesn't get an offer i'm sure we'll pick him up once he's all healed from his injury. But we don't have the space on our roster to sign someone and sit him down.


We might not have space for him, I don't think we should sign him until we know we'll have room for a "project" ala POB or Cassell. Sadly that's what Powe is due to his injury  :-\.

Re: Im questioning Ainge
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2009, 02:30:16 AM »

Offline johnnyrondo

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Ok this is not meant at anyone directly, but I feel that many of the same people who are defending Ainge with the "business is business, we can't waste a roster spot" lingo, would be saying what a wise move it was for Danny to store Powe away as our 15th man and then when we prepare for the playoffs get this great gift of an experienced player who knows our system.

I feel some people just want to say that every decision Ainge makes is wise. Me on the other hand, I'll give him credit and blame. He was wise to bail on Jiri and trade him for a first rounder. He was wise to trade that first rounder for Rondo. He was wise after his guy Swift was off the board to pick Big Al. He was wise to sign Posey. He was wise to trade for a second rounder and pick up Powe. He was unwise to trade the Brandon Roy pick. He was unwise to draft Marcus Banks. he was unwise to pick POB over Birdman. He was unwise draft Giddens and Pruitt. He was unwise to trade Tony Battie. He was unwise to pay Mark Blount.

You can go back and forth, but I'm just saying that people should be more objective. How many teams have a 15th man that has the potential to make a difference in the playoffs? we could with Powe, so even if you didn't care about loyalty, it still makes sense to resign Powe and let him rehab as a Celtic and return as a Celtic.

Re: Im questioning Ainge
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2009, 02:32:51 AM »

Offline expobear

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I'm sorry for Leon but its a business. If he doesn't get an offer i'm sure we'll pick him up once he's all healed from his injury. But we don't have the space on our roster to sign someone and sit him down.



No need to worry about Powe....he's gone.  I doubt the Celtics are going to be able to resign Powe if his rehab goes well.  There will be a half dozen teams in line ahead of the Celtics and any "home town discount" disappeared as soon as Leon walked out of Ainge's office yesterday.  

Re: Im questioning Ainge
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2009, 02:35:05 AM »

Offline Amir

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Hes been getting offers already, there is no way we are not picking him back up after he is healed from his injury. And this quote from Powe's Agent:

Quote
I don’t want people thinking that we’re looking for sympathy, because Leon is going to play again. The Celtics are aware that he’s ahead of schedule

http://news.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view/20090702leon_powe_celtics_say_goodbyes/

Do you want Leon Powe on your team or Pruitt, T Allen, Giddens, and Walker who havent made any impact on this team in their careers?! Leon Powe, since he was a rookie, outperformed this guys. People are forgetting his talent, and that he can put up 20/10 numbers.

Re: Im questioning Ainge
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2009, 02:40:39 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Ok this is not meant at anyone directly, but I feel that many of the same people who are defending Ainge with the "business is business, we can't waste a roster spot" lingo, would be saying what a wise move it was for Danny to store Powe away as our 15th man and then when we prepare for the playoffs get this great gift of an experienced player who knows our system.

I feel some people just want to say that every decision Ainge makes is wise. Me on the other hand, I'll give him credit and blame. He was wise to bail on Jiri and trade him for a first rounder. He was wise to trade that first rounder for Rondo. He was wise after his guy Swift was off the board to pick Big Al. He was wise to sign Posey. He was wise to trade for a second rounder and pick up Powe. He was unwise to trade the Brandon Roy pick. He was unwise to draft Marcus Banks. he was unwise to pick POB over Birdman. He was unwise draft Giddens and Pruitt. He was unwise to trade Tony Battie. He was unwise to pay Mark Blount.

You can go back and forth, but I'm just saying that people should be more objective. How many teams have a 15th man that has the potential to make a difference in the playoffs? we could with Powe, so even if you didn't care about loyalty, it still makes sense to resign Powe and let him rehab as a Celtic and return as a Celtic.
Well since there are just two of us posting in this thread supporting Ainge's I'll feel free to be a bit insulted by this. "I don't mean this at anyone directly" is a rather disingenous cop-out when you want to call out specific posters as being shills for management.

I think I've laid out my reasoning pretty clearly. I am not "just rationalizing" whatever Ainge has done.

We shouldn't commit a roster spot or money on a project until we're done signing whatever impact FAs we can get. Powe might not be healthy enough to play at all next season.

Re: Im questioning Ainge
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2009, 02:43:25 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Hes been getting offers already, there is no way we are not picking him back up after he is healed from his injury. And this quote from Powe's Agent:

Quote
I don’t want people thinking that we’re looking for sympathy, because Leon is going to play again. The Celtics are aware that he’s ahead of schedule

http://news.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view/20090702leon_powe_celtics_say_goodbyes/

Do you want Leon Powe on your team or Pruitt, T Allen, Giddens, and Walker who havent made any impact on this team in their careers?! Leon Powe, since he was a rookie, outperformed this guys. People are forgetting his talent, and that he can put up 20/10 numbers.
Tony has made an impact on the C's, probably not a positive one though  ;).

I think Pruitt/Walker/Giddens/Hudson are going to be fighting for two roster spots at the most. If we keep all four I'll be annoyed that they let Powe go. But if we resign Sheed, BBD, and another big I'd understand it. We'd be set at the front court in that scenario.

Re: Im questioning Ainge
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2009, 02:56:24 AM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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Hes been getting offers already, there is no way we are not picking him back up after he is healed from his injury. And this quote from Powe's Agent:

Quote
I don’t want people thinking that we’re looking for sympathy, because Leon is going to play again. The Celtics are aware that he’s ahead of schedule

http://news.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view/20090702leon_powe_celtics_say_goodbyes/

Do you want Leon Powe on your team or Pruitt, T Allen, Giddens, and Walker who havent made any impact on this team in their careers?! Leon Powe, since he was a rookie, outperformed this guys. People are forgetting his talent, and that he can put up 20/10 numbers.
Tony has made an impact on the C's, probably not a positive one though  ;).

I think Pruitt/Walker/Giddens/Hudson are going to be fighting for two roster spots at the most. If we keep all four I'll be annoyed that they let Powe go. But if we resign Sheed, BBD, and another big I'd understand it. We'd be set at the front court in that scenario.

Leon Powe is hurt. This isn't a question of heart and bravery and celtic love... Leon is really injured and isn't going to be back until after the all-star break. Leon also got playing time as a rookie since he wasn't on a contending team, so i wouldn't say that he's ahead of JR, Gabe, and Billy becuase he's been "outplayed" those guys since his first year

Re: Im questioning Ainge
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2009, 02:57:21 AM »

Offline johnnyrondo

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Ok this is not meant at anyone directly, but I feel that many of the same people who are defending Ainge with the "business is business, we can't waste a roster spot" lingo, would be saying what a wise move it was for Danny to store Powe away as our 15th man and then when we prepare for the playoffs get this great gift of an experienced player who knows our system.

I feel some people just want to say that every decision Ainge makes is wise. Me on the other hand, I'll give him credit and blame. He was wise to bail on Jiri and trade him for a first rounder. He was wise to trade that first rounder for Rondo. He was wise after his guy Swift was off the board to pick Big Al. He was wise to sign Posey. He was wise to trade for a second rounder and pick up Powe. He was unwise to trade the Brandon Roy pick. He was unwise to draft Marcus Banks. he was unwise to pick POB over Birdman. He was unwise draft Giddens and Pruitt. He was unwise to trade Tony Battie. He was unwise to pay Mark Blount.

You can go back and forth, but I'm just saying that people should be more objective. How many teams have a 15th man that has the potential to make a difference in the playoffs? we could with Powe, so even if you didn't care about loyalty, it still makes sense to resign Powe and let him rehab as a Celtic and return as a Celtic.
Well since there are just two of us posting in this thread supporting Ainge's I'll feel free to be a bit insulted by this. "I don't mean this at anyone directly" is a rather disingenous cop-out when you want to call out specific posters as being shills for management.

I think I've laid out my reasoning pretty clearly. I am not "just rationalizing" whatever Ainge has done.

We shouldn't commit a roster spot or money on a project until we're done signing whatever impact FAs we can get. Powe might not be healthy enough to play at all next season.

If you think you think these two posts are the only pro Ainge posts on this topic today you're very wrong. There's been hundreds of posts on the main page and in the forums today on Powe. The majority are disheartened by the move, but there is a strong minority that has your exact argument.  So you can save your "disingenous cop-out" attack for someone else. This wasn't about you. The fact that you took "some" or even "many" to mean fafnir, well that's on you. Don't be so sensitive. If you're not a "shill" as you call it, then the post had nothing to do with you. My opinion remains that an injured rotation player who could very likely return for the playoffs and provide a significant boost (like PJ in '08) would be a good call for a 15th roster spot. The fact that Leon loves being a Celtic and exemplifies being a Celtic is an added bonus.

Re: Im questioning Ainge
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2009, 03:05:05 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Ok this is not meant at anyone directly, but I feel that many of the same people who are defending Ainge with the "business is business, we can't waste a roster spot" lingo, would be saying what a wise move it was for Danny to store Powe away as our 15th man and then when we prepare for the playoffs get this great gift of an experienced player who knows our system.

I feel some people just want to say that every decision Ainge makes is wise. Me on the other hand, I'll give him credit and blame. He was wise to bail on Jiri and trade him for a first rounder. He was wise to trade that first rounder for Rondo. He was wise after his guy Swift was off the board to pick Big Al. He was wise to sign Posey. He was wise to trade for a second rounder and pick up Powe. He was unwise to trade the Brandon Roy pick. He was unwise to draft Marcus Banks. he was unwise to pick POB over Birdman. He was unwise draft Giddens and Pruitt. He was unwise to trade Tony Battie. He was unwise to pay Mark Blount.

You can go back and forth, but I'm just saying that people should be more objective. How many teams have a 15th man that has the potential to make a difference in the playoffs? we could with Powe, so even if you didn't care about loyalty, it still makes sense to resign Powe and let him rehab as a Celtic and return as a Celtic.
Well since there are just two of us posting in this thread supporting Ainge's I'll feel free to be a bit insulted by this. "I don't mean this at anyone directly" is a rather disingenous cop-out when you want to call out specific posters as being shills for management.

I think I've laid out my reasoning pretty clearly. I am not "just rationalizing" whatever Ainge has done.

We shouldn't commit a roster spot or money on a project until we're done signing whatever impact FAs we can get. Powe might not be healthy enough to play at all next season.

If you think you think these two posts are the only pro Ainge posts on this topic today you're very wrong. There's been hundreds of posts on the main page and in the forums today on Powe. The majority are disheartened by the move, but there is a strong minority that has your exact argument.  So you can save your "disingenous cop-out" attack for someone else. This wasn't about you. The fact that you took "some" or even "many" to mean fafnir, well that's on you. Don't be so sensitive. If you're not a "shill" as you call it, then the post had nothing to do with you.
But why did you post it in this thread if it has nothing to do with me or xmuscularghandix? So its about people who've taken our position on the issue, but not the two of us right? Who are these people?

I suppose that's why I don't like it when people preface generic attacks on people with "this is not meant at anyone directly". Whenever someone steps up and says something in response, its on them for taking it personally, "I wasn't talking about you" etc.

I'm open to valid disagreements with my opinions or arguments. I've never said that Powe can't be valuable, or that you're a fool for thinking he could be big for this team if we brought him back. I understand and respect what you're saying with regards to Powe. I've loved his play for the C's these past two years that he's had the chance to play for a great tema.

But I feel like I'm being hit by a pretty broad brush for taking a position opposite of yours. Especially since you're throwing a lot of past debates out there. Many of which occurred when I wasn't even active on this blog!
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 03:16:41 AM by Fafnir »

Re: Im questioning Ainge
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2009, 03:05:28 AM »

Offline mgent

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I've stated this same argument in about three different threads. I think BudweiserCeltic summed it all up best.

I don't understand the outrage at all. There's no space for him at the moment, sad story but "crap" happens.

We have 11 players currently in our roster. Then we have Big Baby, that's 12. We plan to add another PF/C (Rasheed)... that's 13. We plan to add another SF (Ross, Hill, Barnes, etc.), that's 14. We are probably looking for another PG (Hudson, Marbury, etc.). That's 15.

Where does Powe and his massive injury fit at the moment? Nowhere. We could probably cur Pruitt, but it won't be to add an injured player... who knows, maybe he starts playing better. You can't make Pruitt the victim here, he deserves the chance to make the roster.

Before this happened, there were tons of speculations that this coming FA season, the Celtics will have to choose between Baby and Powe... by the majority this was an accepted turn of events, well we chose one. Too bad Powe is injured, but we're not a charity here.
I love Powe, but not extending him the QO and saying we won't offer him a contract until after we've finished filling out our bench makes sense. We don't know if Powe will be able to contribute at all this coming season.


You talk about Sam Cassell, but we didn't sign him until the summer FA was already all over and we had extra room. If we have only 14 players I'm sure Ainge will be calling Powe up about a minimum deal.
Your logic is lost on me.  Take a look back at that roster.  Powe is currently more talented and has more potential than Ross/Hill/Barnes, Marbury/Hudson, Walker, Pruitt, Giddens, Scalabrine, and Tony Allen.
So i don't see a spot for Powe either, i see 7.  And that's not even factoring in how much more valuable big men are to us at the moment (and in general), AND the fact that it's much less risky to keep someone who we know can play well with our team than to surf around the free market.  Please stop your lame attempts to try and rationalize this poor decision.
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: Im questioning Ainge
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2009, 03:05:40 AM »

Offline Amir

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Hes been getting offers already, there is no way we are not picking him back up after he is healed from his injury. And this quote from Powe's Agent:

Quote
I don’t want people thinking that we’re looking for sympathy, because Leon is going to play again. The Celtics are aware that he’s ahead of schedule

http://news.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view/20090702leon_powe_celtics_say_goodbyes/

Do you want Leon Powe on your team or Pruitt, T Allen, Giddens, and Walker who havent made any impact on this team in their careers?! Leon Powe, since he was a rookie, outperformed this guys. People are forgetting his talent, and that he can put up 20/10 numbers.
Tony has made an impact on the C's, probably not a positive one though  ;).

I think Pruitt/Walker/Giddens/Hudson are going to be fighting for two roster spots at the most. If we keep all four I'll be annoyed that they let Powe go. But if we resign Sheed, BBD, and another big I'd understand it. We'd be set at the front court in that scenario.

Leon Powe is hurt. This isn't a question of heart and bravery and celtic love... Leon is really injured and isn't going to be back until after the all-star break. Leon also got playing time as a rookie since he wasn't on a contending team, so i wouldn't say that he's ahead of JR, Gabe, and Billy becuase he's been "outplayed" those guys since his first year

Its pretty clear to me Leon deserves to be on this team more than Gabe, TA, and Scal. Cassell, House, Marbury, and now its looking like Hudson have all been brought in to take Pruitt's spot. TA is a mess. And Scal, until this year, is Veal.

Re: Im questioning Ainge
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2009, 03:11:11 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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I've stated this same argument in about three different threads. I think BudweiserCeltic summed it all up best.

I don't understand the outrage at all. There's no space for him at the moment, sad story but "crap" happens.

We have 11 players currently in our roster. Then we have Big Baby, that's 12. We plan to add another PF/C (Rasheed)... that's 13. We plan to add another SF (Ross, Hill, Barnes, etc.), that's 14. We are probably looking for another PG (Hudson, Marbury, etc.). That's 15.

Where does Powe and his massive injury fit at the moment? Nowhere. We could probably cur Pruitt, but it won't be to add an injured player... who knows, maybe he starts playing better. You can't make Pruitt the victim here, he deserves the chance to make the roster.

Before this happened, there were tons of speculations that this coming FA season, the Celtics will have to choose between Baby and Powe... by the majority this was an accepted turn of events, well we chose one. Too bad Powe is injured, but we're not a charity here.
I love Powe, but not extending him the QO and saying we won't offer him a contract until after we've finished filling out our bench makes sense. We don't know if Powe will be able to contribute at all this coming season.


You talk about Sam Cassell, but we didn't sign him until the summer FA was already all over and we had extra room. If we have only 14 players I'm sure Ainge will be calling Powe up about a minimum deal.
Your logic is lost on me.  Take a look back at that roster.  Powe is currently more talented and has more potential than Ross/Hill/Barnes, Marbury/Hudson, Walker, Pruitt, Giddens, Scalabrine, and Tony Allen.
So i don't see a spot for Powe either, i see 7.  And that's not even factoring in how much more valuable big men are to us at the moment (and in general), AND the fact that it's much less risky to keep someone who we know can play well with our team than to surf around the free market.
I think the Celtics have specific needs they need to fill. A backup SF, length at the 4/5 spot, and front court depth. Overall talent isn't our problem. Powe can only help with front court depth, and only if/when he recovers. In my mind this moves him from our 8th most important player, and best backup PF unless we sign Sheed/McDyess, and into end of the roster territory.

If he hadn't been hurt at the end of the season I'd say keeping him was more important than keeping BBD. His rebounding is very valuable at the 4. But he did get hurt and we don't know if he can contribute.

Quote
 Please stop your lame attempts to try and rationalize this poor decision.
This isn't necessary.