Author Topic: Trade Irving for the sake of the team  (Read 53331 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #360 on: January 19, 2019, 03:45:18 PM »

Kiorrik

  • Guest
Btw, I could've also pointed out that other team mates score really high or play really well in those games.

Kyrie makes people better. Kyrie has always been able to produce at will.

Our young guys don't have that ability. But putting that on Kyrie is weird.

Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #361 on: January 19, 2019, 03:50:37 PM »

Offline Big333223

  • NCE
  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7489
  • Tommy Points: 741
Irving is currently having big stat lines and, of course, came up huge vs Toronto late to basically win the game for the Celts.

My concern, which will not be heard because of my "bias" regarding Irving is, that short term, he produces some great moments but long term, I think he hurts a team's chances towards consistent championship contention.

What you have to look at is, when Irving posts these big numbers, points & assists, what are the other players producing ? The Celtics are at their best when assists and points are spread among several players. That means the ball is moving and not being dribbled. When Irving gets 18 assists, everyone wants to kneel and worship the guy. Problem is, those 18 assists come after he dominates the ball for much of the shot clock and then makes ONE pass for a basket. When a lot of players get assists, it means the ball is moving, everyone is involved and much more active, both offensively and defensively. Irving is often great for a team the last 2 minutes of a game. It's the first 46 minutes that I worry about.

His basic self-centered nature has been discussed at length already. Anyone who responds to a coach's directive with, "That's not my job" is obviously more concerned with themselves than the team.

Wins.
1957, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1974, 1976, 1981, 1984, 1986, 2008

Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #362 on: January 19, 2019, 03:53:19 PM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182
Kyrie is a top player in the league.  However you want to define it. He's one of the iconic players, part of the elite tier. He's not at the top of that tier, he's got flaws, but he's part of it.

It's never a bad thing to have a player like that on your team.

Period.

This is stupid.

Teams that lack players of that caliber are irrelevant.  Forget about chemistry and style and heart.

Would people be happier if the Celtics were, essentially, irrelevant?
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #363 on: January 19, 2019, 03:54:19 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 36776
  • Tommy Points: 2961
Kyrie is a top player in the league.

It's never a bad thing to have a player like that on your team.

Period.

This is stupid.

TP

Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #364 on: January 19, 2019, 03:56:55 PM »

Kiorrik

  • Guest
I don't think I can imagine literally any NBA player saying "yeah we should trade Kyrie" if they had him on the team.

Or "nah we don't need Kyrie thanks, we're good."

Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #365 on: January 19, 2019, 04:09:38 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6131
  • Tommy Points: 722
Irving is currently having big stat lines and, of course, came up huge vs Toronto late to basically win the game for the Celts.

My concern, which will not be heard because of my "bias" regarding Irving is, that short term, he produces some great moments but long term, I think he hurts a team's chances towards consistent championship contention.

What you have to look at is, when Irving posts these big numbers, points & assists, what are the other players producing ? The Celtics are at their best when assists and points are spread among several players. That means the ball is moving and not being dribbled. When Irving gets 18 assists, everyone wants to kneel and worship the guy. Problem is, those 18 assists come after he dominates the ball for much of the shot clock and then makes ONE pass for a basket. When a lot of players get assists, it means the ball is moving, everyone is involved and much more active, both offensively and defensively. Irving is often great for a team the last 2 minutes of a game. It's the first 46 minutes that I worry about.

His basic self-centered nature has been discussed at length already. Anyone who responds to a coach's directive with, "That's not my job" is obviously more concerned with themselves than the team.

Larry Bird had career average USG rate of 26.5%, and Irving has 29.3%, which isn't that far fetched to believe in the percentage difference, considering Irving is a PG/SG combo guard, and generally will have the ball in his hands for far longer.

Bird also had consecutive games where he had 20+ PPG, and 10+ APG. Did he also deter his other teammates from being involved and scoring? Did we hear the same glaring complaints with Irving, APPLY to Bird? Sure, two different players, and two entirely different positions, but it's always alarming to me that you guys continuously talk about him having 18 assists as if that's a bad thing. Like Bird never just took over the game, and led the team to a win. Why is it such a problematic issue if Irving does the same?

Offensively, he's our clear cut go to scorer, and probably the best player on the team.
Is he not allowed to be given the luxury to do so, when he has been nothing short of excellent; in fixing and improving upon his most immediate deficiencies.

Like seriously, it's like you guys just try to pluck away any achievements, or anything impactful that Irving has done. Every time, I come into this forums, I've seen some users who really have it out for Irving, and just whine and complain about everything that he does, and never EVER talk about whatever good he accomplished. You guys really are some negative nancy's. 

It's also telling that you chose the one sentence that marks him out as a bad guy, but none of the other 100 great ones mentioned in his post game interviews; taking blame for losses, stepping us as a leader.

You are actually trying to equate Irving's ability to get teammates inolved to Larry Bird, who may have been the best all-time at getting the ball moving and other players scoring. Getting teammates involved was probably the most important thing Bird did as a rookie to get the Celtics moving back in a winning direction.

Irving is a great offensive player - but his style hurts these specific teammates in the long run. Bad fit.

As for the comment Irving made to Tyronn Lue, that's about as bad as it gets - unless some player threatens to get surgery done if he is not traded.
The Four Celtic Generals:
Russell - Cowens - Bird - Garnett

The Four Celtic Lieutenants:
Cousy - Havlicek - McHale - Pierce

Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #366 on: January 19, 2019, 04:12:42 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6131
  • Tommy Points: 722
"Like Bird never just took over the game, and led the team to a win. Why is it such a problematic issue if Irving does the same?"

One of my statements was that Irving is great the last 2 minutes of a close game.
The Four Celtic Generals:
Russell - Cowens - Bird - Garnett

The Four Celtic Lieutenants:
Cousy - Havlicek - McHale - Pierce

Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #367 on: January 19, 2019, 04:15:18 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6932
  • Tommy Points: 814
  • A true Celtic plays with heart.
Irving is currently having big stat lines and, of course, came up huge vs Toronto late to basically win the game for the Celts.

My concern, which will not be heard because of my "bias" regarding Irving is, that short term, he produces some great moments but long term, I think he hurts a team's chances towards consistent championship contention.

What you have to look at is, when Irving posts these big numbers, points & assists, what are the other players producing ? The Celtics are at their best when assists and points are spread among several players. That means the ball is moving and not being dribbled. When Irving gets 18 assists, everyone wants to kneel and worship the guy. Problem is, those 18 assists come after he dominates the ball for much of the shot clock and then makes ONE pass for a basket. When a lot of players get assists, it means the ball is moving, everyone is involved and much more active, both offensively and defensively. Irving is often great for a team the last 2 minutes of a game. It's the first 46 minutes that I worry about.

His basic self-centered nature has been discussed at length already. Anyone who responds to a coach's directive with, "That's not my job" is obviously more concerned with themselves than the team.

Larry Bird had career average USG rate of 26.5%, and Irving has 29.3%, which isn't that far fetched to believe in the percentage difference, considering Irving is a PG/SG combo guard, and generally will have the ball in his hands for far longer.

Bird also had consecutive games where he had 20+ PPG, and 10+ APG. Did he also deter his other teammates from being involved and scoring? Did we hear the same glaring complaints with Irving, APPLY to Bird? Sure, two different players, and two entirely different positions, but it's always alarming to me that you guys continuously talk about him having 18 assists as if that's a bad thing. Like Bird never just took over the game, and led the team to a win. Why is it such a problematic issue if Irving does the same?

Offensively, he's our clear cut go to scorer, and probably the best player on the team.
Is he not allowed to be given the luxury to do so, when he has been nothing short of excellent; in fixing and improving upon his most immediate deficiencies.

Like seriously, it's like you guys just try to pluck away any achievements, or anything impactful that Irving has done. Every time, I come into this forums, I've seen some users who really have it out for Irving, and just whine and complain about everything that he does, and never EVER talk about whatever good he accomplished. You guys really are some negative nancy's. 

It's also telling that you chose the one sentence that marks him out as a bad guy, but none of the other 100 great ones mentioned in his post game interviews; taking blame for losses, stepping us as a leader.

You are actually trying to equate Irving's ability to get teammates inolved to Larry Bird, who may have been the best all-time at getting the ball moving and other players scoring. Getting teammates involved was probably the most important thing Bird did as a rookie to get the Celtics moving back in a winning direction.

Irving is a great offensive player - but his style hurts these specific teammates in the long run. Bad fit.

As for the comment Irving made to Tyronn Lue, that's about as bad as it gets - unless some player threatens to get surgery done if he is not traded.

And Irving hasn't shown that he is showing an willingness to do that in the past 2 years? What more do you guys want from Kyrie?

Oh come off it, jeez louise lol. So what? That locker room was toxic from the beginning, Lue was a horrible coach, and LBJ wasn't a leader by any means either. He wasn't happy with CLE, sure it was immature, but WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES as human beings.

"Like Bird never just took over the game, and led the team to a win. Why is it such a problematic issue if Irving does the same?"

One of my statements was that Irving is great the last 2 minutes of a close game.

And one of my responses to said statement is that Irving is great 48 minutes of a close game... Kyrie is clutch, no doubt about it, but sure keep thinking that he isn't. I wonder what it'll take for you guys to stop judging Irving and dismissing him, and maybe just be happy we finally have someone like Irving on our team..
"I bomb atomically, Socrates' philosophies and hypotheses
Can't define how I be dropping these mockeries."

Is the glass half-full or half-empty?
It's based on your perspective, quite simply
We're the same and we're not; know what I'm saying? Listen
Son, I ain't better than you, I just think different

Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #368 on: January 19, 2019, 04:17:49 PM »

Kiorrik

  • Guest
Can we, instead of doing away with our best player, give our team the chance to learn to play around him? There's still plenty of change happening. This team isn't the same that started the season.

I believe more that our young ones can learn to play with Irving, than I believe Rozier can lead us to a title. (Or whomever we get to replace Irving)

Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #369 on: January 19, 2019, 04:44:43 PM »

Offline gouki88

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31552
  • Tommy Points: 3141
  • 2019 & 2021 CS Historical Draft Champion
When Irving gets 18 assists, everyone wants to kneel and worship the guy. Problem is, those 18 assists come after he dominates the ball for much of the shot clock and then makes ONE pass for a basket.

Okay. Now I know you're not watching the games. Because this is not based on anything that actually happened in that Toronto game.
Lol, yup. Completely removed from reality
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #370 on: January 19, 2019, 04:52:55 PM »

Kiorrik

  • Guest
When Irving gets 18 assists, everyone wants to kneel and worship the guy. Problem is, those 18 assists come after he dominates the ball for much of the shot clock and then makes ONE pass for a basket.

Okay. Now I know you're not watching the games. Because this is not based on anything that actually happened in that Toronto game.
Lol, yup. Completely removed from reality
Yeh, normally there's tonnes of passes and/or him drawing multiple defenders.

Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #371 on: January 19, 2019, 04:57:03 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6131
  • Tommy Points: 722
When Irving gets 18 assists, everyone wants to kneel and worship the guy. Problem is, those 18 assists come after he dominates the ball for much of the shot clock and then makes ONE pass for a basket.

Okay. Now I know you're not watching the games. Because this is not based on anything that actually happened in that Toronto game.
Lol, yup. Completely removed from reality

Well, one thing I can always count on here is getting personal attacks in response to my basketball comments.

Doesn't seem right, huh Nick ?
The Four Celtic Generals:
Russell - Cowens - Bird - Garnett

The Four Celtic Lieutenants:
Cousy - Havlicek - McHale - Pierce

Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #372 on: January 19, 2019, 05:10:22 PM »

Kiorrik

  • Guest
When Irving gets 18 assists, everyone wants to kneel and worship the guy. Problem is, those 18 assists come after he dominates the ball for much of the shot clock and then makes ONE pass for a basket.

Okay. Now I know you're not watching the games. Because this is not based on anything that actually happened in that Toronto game.
Lol, yup. Completely removed from reality

Well, one thing I can always count on here is getting personal attacks in response to my basketball comments.

Doesn't seem right, huh Nick ?

Erm... that wasn't a personal attack. C'mon now.

He just said that what you're saying doesn't align with the truth.

Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #373 on: January 19, 2019, 05:17:54 PM »

Offline gouki88

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31552
  • Tommy Points: 3141
  • 2019 & 2021 CS Historical Draft Champion
When Irving gets 18 assists, everyone wants to kneel and worship the guy. Problem is, those 18 assists come after he dominates the ball for much of the shot clock and then makes ONE pass for a basket.

Okay. Now I know you're not watching the games. Because this is not based on anything that actually happened in that Toronto game.
Lol, yup. Completely removed from reality

Well, one thing I can always count on here is getting personal attacks in response to my basketball comments.

Doesn't seem right, huh Nick ?
Yeah, lol, might wanna check up on what a personal attack is. Saying what you’re saying is untrue is not one
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #374 on: January 19, 2019, 06:10:56 PM »

Offline ozgod

  • JoJo White
  • ****************
  • Posts: 16751
  • Tommy Points: 1362
The thing about Kyrie is, sometimes, particularly in championship games that are very close, is that you need someone to go get you a bucket and he can pretty much do that the majority of the time. His younger teammates, while being very talented, aren't quite at that level of consistency, or aren't quite able to produce when the pressure is greatest.

The balance is in giving the younger players time and space to grow, make mistakes, try to win a game (like Tatum tried to do vs Orlando), fail, and learn from it. The fans will be up in arms because "why didn't Gordon just pass to Kyrie why pass to Jayson??" but over a long season there's value in losing those games if it puts the likes of Tatum in those positions so they can learn to consistently execute when the game is on the line. Just as long as you don't lose too many, because again there is a balance between growth for the young players and positioning the team for a high seed for a playoff push.

What surprises me is how hard it is for many people to realize that while young players can change and improve, so can stars like Kyrie. Back in Cleveland he was an iso shoot first ball hog, because he was never expected to facilitate for a team, or even guide it, with LeBum there. He was never really primarily responsible for the growth of his teammates. He's in a different position now in Boston, he has to balance the need to keep winning (and do all he can to make sure they keep winning) with giving his teammates the chance to make mistakes and learn from them, even if it costs games. It's been obvious (to me at least) that he's making more of an effort to be that different type of player here. His usage has dropped, his assist ratio is up from 30% to 36%, his assists are up from the mid-4s (in Cle) and 5.1 last season to 6.8 this season. Players can change and develop over time, depending on circumstance. Kyrie's only 26, why wouldn't we give him credit for those efforts to change and broaden his game?

But because he's such a great finisher, there are always going to be times when the game is close when we need to give him the ball and get us a bucket, or facilitate a two man game for us. Just using the game vs Toronto, he had 14 pts and 8 assists in the first half while Gordon had 16 in the 1st. Then in the 2nd half he had 13 points and 10 assists while Al had 19 out of his 24. A balanced approach which was needed for the situation. Then against Memphis Tatum, Morris and Hayward were 0-6, 2-7 and 4-12 for a combined total of 6-25. We needed Scorer Kyrie for that game to get us those key buckets when we needed to down the stretch to eventually create separation at the end, because nobody else was able to do it. That's the real value of having Kyrie, or Durant, or Curry, or LeBum, any of those players who, when the game is on the line, you need to go get you a bucket. There's not that many of them around.

Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D