CelticsStrong
Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: Green-18 on October 28, 2017, 10:15:25 AM
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http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21178004/nba-russell-westbrook-next-step-thunder
So I watched most of the Thunder game last night and it looks like the same problems are going to plague them as in years past. I can't believe that Melo and Paul George feel they need to completely adapt to Westbrook. Westbrook is one of my favorite players in the entire league but their team is doomed if he doesn't adjust his playing style to the talents of George and Anthony. Once again the Thunder rank near the bottom of the league in passes per game. They are second to last in this category despite the fact that many teams have played one less game. Their poor 3 point shooting has also carried over from last season. Most of their threes are taken by Melo and George in isolation or late shot clock situations. The "adapt" to Westbrook mentality is laziness by both George and Melo. They should collectively challenge each other to emulate teams like San Antonio and Golden State. It would probably look ugly for a while but their ceiling could be much higher. Carmelo would benefit the most if they figured it out. I can't remember if it was last season or 2015/16 but Melo shot almost 46% on wide open three point attempts. Paul George was almost identical.
Westbrook's current style of play is much more suited for the late 90's/early 2000's brand of basketball. It baffles me that their coaching staff and big three doesn't realize that there needs to be a fundamental change in the way they play basketball. I am rooting for OKC to figure things out but I have my doubts. So far the whole is less than the sum of the parts.
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I think most of us agreed before they even stepped on the floor together that this was either going to work like hotcakes or be a complete dumpster fire.
Seasons early they still got plenty of time to figure it out.
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I think most of us agreed before they even stepped on the floor together that this was either going to work like hotcakes or be a complete dumpster fire.
Seasons early they still got plenty of time to figure it out.
My definition of figure it out might different than most people's. At some point they will rattle of 8-10 wins in a row and I wouldn't be surprised to see them finish with 55 wins. However, there has been no commitment from the coaching staff to fundamentally change the way they run their offense. Imagine what Brad Stevens could do with the three of them. We are very fortunate as Celtics fans.
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To nobody's surprise it looks like OKC didn't figure out a single thing to improve their team. At what point does someone in the organization have the guts to challenge Westbrook to become a smarter and more efficient offensive player? I used to enjoy watching his reckless style when he was younger but at this point it's clear that he is unable to adapt on his own to the modern NBA.
Westbrook needs to put up at least 500 threes per day during the off-season. He shot 31% on threes with the nearest defender 4 or more feet away. A consistent 3 point shot would open up his game significantly in the half court. His game is stuck in the late 90's/early 2000's.
I have no idea how Westbrook responds to coaching but someone needs to man up and show him the statistics behind why their team is so terrible on offense. Once again OKC ranks near the bottom of the league in passes per game. It's been the same theme going back to the Wesbtrook and Durant era. I guess the rest of Westbrook's prime years will be wasted in an ugly offense. As an NBA fan I wish he had a coach that could challenge him to escape his comfort zone. There are more than enough examples of other teams that have benefited from a change in style.
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It would help if they had even a decent coach, but Donovan is just not a good coach.
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It would help if they had even a decent coach, but Donovan is just not a good coach.
To nobody's surprise it looks like OKC didn't figure out a single thing to improve their team. At what point does someone in the organization have the guts to challenge Westbrook to become a smarter and more efficient offensive player? I used to enjoy watching his reckless style when he was younger but at this point it's clear that he is unable to adapt on his own to the modern NBA.
Westbrook needs to put up at least 500 threes per day during the off-season. He shot 31% on threes with the nearest defender 4 or more feet away. A consistent 3 point shot would open up his game significantly in the half court. His game is stuck in the late 90's/early 2000's.
I have no idea how Westbrook responds to coaching but someone needs to man up and show him the statistics behind why their team is so terrible on offense. Once again OKC ranks near the bottom of the league in passes per game. It's been the same theme going back to the Wesbtrook and Durant era. I guess the rest of Westbrook's prime years will be wasted in an ugly offense. As an NBA fan I wish he had a coach that could challenge him to escape his comfort zone. There are more than enough examples of other teams that have benefited from a change in style.
Agreed. Donovan looks afraid of challenging Westbrook's fierce hero ball personality. Either Westbrook needs to figure out how to completely retool his game to shoot the 3 point better, or create better opportunities for others. They need to also focus on swinging the ball more to create better looks. There just isn't any movement at all, and it's very frustrating to see someone like Melo resort to taking tough contested jumpers time and time again. PG-13 isn't going to re-sign, and if he did, I'll be completely baffled.
Does anyone else feel sorry for Adams? He's been an absolute consummate teammate who does everything in a big man well despite his inability to space the floor. Sets great screens and picks, defends, and has consistent motor mixed in with Perkins-type of enforcement attitude, not to mention he always defends or backs up his teammates in confrontational situations. He really is a great player and teammate, and he has never ever once thrown his teammates under the bus.
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It would help if they had even a decent coach, but Donovan is just not a good coach.
How many coaches must they go through before it is on the players? Carmelo is awful. Westbrook is hero ball 101, which is why Durant left them.
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It would help if they had even a decent coach, but Donovan is just not a good coach.
How many coaches must they go through before it is on the players? Carmelo is awful. Westbrook is hero ball 101, which is why Durant left them.
Westbrook has a lot of talent, but he doesn't really impress me, as his game seems to be more about numbers and "getting his." I just can't see any team with Westbrook as its best player winning a title, or even coming close.
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They would be so much better off with roberson playing instead of melo.
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It would help if they had even a decent coach, but Donovan is just not a good coach.
How many coaches must they go through before it is on the players? Carmelo is awful. Westbrook is hero ball 101, which is why Durant left them.
They've basically just had Brooks and Donovan during Westbrook's time. Brooks is ok and Donovan is bad. It isn't like they've run through the coaches, they haven't.
Durant left because he wanted to take the easy way out and win championships.
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It would help if they had even a decent coach, but Donovan is just not a good coach.
How many coaches must they go through before it is on the players? Carmelo is awful. Westbrook is hero ball 101, which is why Durant left them.
They've basically just had Brooks and Donovan during Westbrook's time. Brooks is ok and Donovan is bad. It isn't like they've run through the coaches, they haven't.
Durant left because he wanted to take the easy way out and win championships.
Sure. Killed him to leave his favorite teammate Russ.
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The players OKC has cast off would be the core of a championship team: Durant, Dipo, Harden.
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The players OKC has cast off would be the core of a championship team: Durant, Dipo, Harden.
Don't forget Ibaka.
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The players OKC has cast off would be the core of a championship team: Durant, Dipo, Harden.
Yeah, just going back to the 11/12 Finals team, the following players have played for and are now no longer on the Thunder
PG - James Harden, Reggie Jackson, DJ Augustin, Ish Smith
SG - Victor Oladipo, Dion Waiters, Jeremy Lamb
SF - Kevin Durant, Doug McDermott, Thabo Sefolosha
PF - Serge Ibaka, Taj Gibson, Lance Thomas
C - Enes Kanter, Ersan Ilyasova
That is the best team in basketball. Not sure any franchise could even come close to that level of talent in the same timeframe.
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It would help if they had even a decent coach, but Donovan is just not a good coach.
How many coaches must they go through before it is on the players? Carmelo is awful. Westbrook is hero ball 101, which is why Durant left them.
They've basically just had Brooks and Donovan during Westbrook's time. Brooks is ok and Donovan is bad. It isn't like they've run through the coaches, they haven't.
Durant left because he wanted to take the easy way out and win championships.
Durant left because Westbrook is a selfish, terrible teammate. Period.
Any attempts to color it as anything else are simply wrong.
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Melo should be on the bench. He is not a star player. He is an inefficient role player.
He's shooting .373/.231 this postseason. With bad defense.
Put him up against the other team's bench and he might have some success.
As a starter imagine Marcus Smart taking twice as many shots and playing no defense and having no physicality or leadership. Yeah.
He's the biggest reason for their failures. Donovan should have him on the bench - a bench which currently desperately struggles to score.
Of course this doesn't let Westbrook off the hook. I've been saying for years he's not a winner and never will be. But melo is deadweight on both ends of the court, he takes shots away from more efficient players while providing nothing on the defensive end.
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The players OKC has cast off would be the core of a championship team: Durant, Dipo, Harden.
Don't forget Ibaka.
Or the legendary Jeff Green...
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It would help if they had even a decent coach, but Donovan is just not a good coach.
How many coaches must they go through before it is on the players? Carmelo is awful. Westbrook is hero ball 101, which is why Durant left them.
Westbrook has a lot of talent, but he doesn't really impress me, as his game seems to be more about numbers and "getting his." I just can't see any team with Westbrook as its best player winning a title, or even coming close.
Same.
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It would help if they had even a decent coach, but Donovan is just not a good coach.
How many coaches must they go through before it is on the players? Carmelo is awful. Westbrook is hero ball 101, which is why Durant left them.
They've basically just had Brooks and Donovan during Westbrook's time. Brooks is ok and Donovan is bad. It isn't like they've run through the coaches, they haven't.
Durant left because he wanted to take the easy way out and win championships.
Durant left because Westbrook is a selfish, terrible teammate. Period.
Any attempts to color it as anything else are simply wrong.
Unless this is one of Durant's many burner accounts, some random guy on the internet has no way of knowing the sole reason why Durant left. Period.
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Durant left because Westbrook is a selfish, terrible teammate. Period.
By choosing Golden State it also revealed him as a guy who wanted a ring, too.
Melo should be on the bench. He is not a star player. He is an inefficient role player.
He's shooting .373/.231 this postseason. With bad defense
He has always been kind of a good player great at racking up meaningless stats and not wins.
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It would help if they had even a decent coach, but Donovan is just not a good coach.
How many coaches must they go through before it is on the players? Carmelo is awful. Westbrook is hero ball 101, which is why Durant left them.
They've basically just had Brooks and Donovan during Westbrook's time. Brooks is ok and Donovan is bad. It isn't like they've run through the coaches, they haven't.
Durant left because he wanted to take the easy way out and win championships.
I do not like this type of analysis. All I hear from NBA talking heads is that coaching does not matter: it about individual talent. Then a team like OKC struggles to meet their talent level and it is the coach's fault.
Maybe they are not as talented as people think they are?
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It would help if they had even a decent coach, but Donovan is just not a good coach.
How many coaches must they go through before it is on the players? Carmelo is awful. Westbrook is hero ball 101, which is why Durant left them.
They've basically just had Brooks and Donovan during Westbrook's time. Brooks is ok and Donovan is bad. It isn't like they've run through the coaches, they haven't.
Durant left because he wanted to take the easy way out and win championships.
I do not like this type of analysis. All I hear from NBA talking heads is that coaching does not matter: it about individual talent. Then a team like OKC struggles to meet their talent level and it is the coach's fault.
Maybe they are not as talented as people think they are?
coaching absolutely matters. So does talent. So does fit. So does countless other things
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The problem with OKC is clearly Carmelo Anthony.
Yes, we can talk all about Westbrook's stat padding and being inefficient, and PG13 has had some cold moments in the series as well, but Carmelo just looks bad.
He's always been a liability on the defensive end, and so when his shot isn't falling (like now), he's just a black hole on that team. Seems to be he just hasn't brought into the system with PG13 and Westbrook now on the team and hogging the shots as well. (Doesn't like being the 3rd option)
But part of it you can say is on Westbrook. He needs to get his team more engaged and defer to the other guys at time instead of trying it all alone (which he tends to do when the going gets tough).
And I see people say Scott Brooks needs to draw up more open plays/looks for guys, and I would have agreed after Game 2, but after seeing the last few games, I don't think you can entirely blame him. I was watching parts of Games 3 and 4, and OKC were just bricking too many open looks (especially Carmelo). Not sure what Brooks can do, and credit to Utah, they're protecting the paint relatively well. Adams can get his, and Westbrook + George can occasionally drive and draw the foul or score, BUT Melo is simply the iso-jump shooter who can't shoot right now.
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I'm not sure if any coach is going to be able to get Westbrook to play more of a team game at this point. He's been in the league ten years at this point and won a MVP and a lot of playoff games playing this way.
Even if Russ buys in, its hard to change as an established player. That's why everyone was shocked and impressed at how well Lowry/DeRozen adjusted this season.
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They're just playing a team that's better than them.
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I'm not sure if any coach is going to be able to get Westbrook to play more of a team game at this point. He's been in the league ten years at this point and won a MVP and a lot of playoff games playing this way.
Even if Russ buys in, its hard to change as an established player. That's why everyone was shocked and impressed at how well Lowry/DeRozen adjusted this season.
Fair point, but if Quin Snyder was coaching the Thunder and Billy Donovan was coaching the Jazz, I think the Thunder would have swept the series. Donovan just isn't a good coach. He doesn't make good adjustments. He doesn't develop winning game plans. He just is flat out a bad coach.
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The problem with OKC is clearly Carmelo Anthony.
Yes, we can talk all about Westbrook's stat padding and being inefficient, and PG13 has had some cold moments in the series as well, but Carmelo just looks bad.
He's always been a liability on the defensive end, and so when his shot isn't falling (like now), he's just a black hole on that team. Seems to be he just hasn't brought into the system with PG13 and Westbrook now on the team and hogging the shots as well. (Doesn't like being the 3rd option)
But part of it you can say is on Westbrook. He needs to get his team more engaged and defer to the other guys at time instead of trying it all alone (which he tends to do when the going gets tough).
And I see people say Scott Brooks needs to draw up more open plays/looks for guys, and I would have agreed after Game 2, but after seeing the last few games, I don't think you can entirely blame him. I was watching parts of Games 3 and 4, and OKC were just bricking too many open looks (especially Carmelo). Not sure what Brooks can do, and credit to Utah, they're protecting the paint relatively well. Adams can get his, and Westbrook + George can occasionally drive and draw the foul or score, BUT Melo is simply the iso-jump shooter who can't shoot right now.
Scott Brooks hasn't coach in OKC since 2015 so he clearly isn't the problem. ;D
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I'm not sure if any coach is going to be able to get Westbrook to play more of a team game at this point. He's been in the league ten years at this point and won a MVP and a lot of playoff games playing this way.
Even if Russ buys in, its hard to change as an established player. That's why everyone was shocked and impressed at how well Lowry/DeRozen adjusted this season.
Fair point, but if Quin Snyder was coaching the Thunder and Billy Donovan was coaching the Jazz, I think the Thunder would have swept the series. Donovan just isn't a good coach. He doesn't make good adjustments. He doesn't develop winning game plans. He just is flat out a bad coach.
Yet he won back to back NCAA titles been to the Final Four 4 times is 3x SEC Coach of the year. and is under defeated as USA under 18/19 in 3 World tournaments. In the NBA he has over a .600 win % He's not a bad coach I'm not buying that reasoning for OKC.
They have 0 bench and decided to give the we will win on 3 talented guys a try unfortunately 1 is toast (Melo) and the other 2 are a bad fit. This falls on Westbrook who seems at this point to be unteachable.
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I'm not sure if any coach is going to be able to get Westbrook to play more of a team game at this point. He's been in the league ten years at this point and won a MVP and a lot of playoff games playing this way.
Even if Russ buys in, its hard to change as an established player. That's why everyone was shocked and impressed at how well Lowry/DeRozen adjusted this season.
Fair point, but if Quin Snyder was coaching the Thunder and Billy Donovan was coaching the Jazz, I think the Thunder would have swept the series. Donovan just isn't a good coach. He doesn't make good adjustments. He doesn't develop winning game plans. He just is flat out a bad coach.
Yet he won back to back NCAA titles been to the Final Four 4 times is 3x SEC Coach of the year. and is under defeated as USA under 18/19 in 3 World tournaments. In the NBA he has over a .600 win % He's not a bad coach I'm not buying that reasoning for OKC.
They have 0 bench and decided to give the we will win on 3 talented guys a try unfortunately 1 is toast (Melo) and the other 2 are a bad fit. This falls on Westbrook who seems at this point to be unteachable.
Ty Lue has a NBA Championship, it doesn't mean he is a good coach.
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Westbrook heading for a Melo type career . Funny fhey re on. the same team , Westbrook should look down the bench and see what he should not be like .
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The problem with OKC is clearly Carmelo Anthony.
Yes, we can talk all about Westbrook's stat padding and being inefficient, and PG13 has had some cold moments in the series as well, but Carmelo just looks bad.
He's always been a liability on the defensive end, and so when his shot isn't falling (like now), he's just a black hole on that team. Seems to be he just hasn't brought into the system with PG13 and Westbrook now on the team and hogging the shots as well. (Doesn't like being the 3rd option)
But part of it you can say is on Westbrook. He needs to get his team more engaged and defer to the other guys at time instead of trying it all alone (which he tends to do when the going gets tough).
And I see people say Scott Brooks needs to draw up more open plays/looks for guys, and I would have agreed after Game 2, but after seeing the last few games, I don't think you can entirely blame him. I was watching parts of Games 3 and 4, and OKC were just bricking too many open looks (especially Carmelo). Not sure what Brooks can do, and credit to Utah, they're protecting the paint relatively well. Adams can get his, and Westbrook + George can occasionally drive and draw the foul or score, BUT Melo is simply the iso-jump shooter who can't shoot right now.
Scott Brooks hasn't coach in OKC since 2015 so he clearly isn't the problem. ;D
Yeah I'm an idiot. Meant Donovan.
Although Brooks with the Wizards has also had some similar struggles when you think about it. But they have done well last two games.