Ray Allen for Diaw and Barbosa

[Bankshot]

This trade is crazy and certainly doesn't make us better.  What GM in their right mind would change the core of a championship team?   Certainly not Ainge.

I'm not even going to argue with the OP and others who think this is the right way to go.  Ainge will never do it anyway.  Maybe in Ray's last year, but he's not doing it now, not when they have a chance to repeat with the core they have now.  It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. 

[Jon]

Pierce and KG with a great supporting cast is not enough to repeat.

You have no factual basis for that assertion.  KG and Pierce, without Allen but with a much stronger bench, and a second young point guard who is far superior to House or Cassell, would have an equally good chance of winning a championship next year, and a much better chance in 2010 and 2011.

Brick- even you know this is absolute nonsense. Why trade a player who with KG and Pierce are already guaranteed contenders, for a couple of much less talented guys that MIGHT make us contenders. Just because they are young?! The best thing that can happen to us is to win 1-2 more titles over the next 3 years and worry about it afterwards. If we have three rings in 5 years then I'll worry about what comes later. Ray gives us that. Not these two clowns from Phoenix who never pushed that team into realistic contention with their three all-stars. You just like them because you have some crazy enamouration with foreign players.

Agreed.  How is finding an upgrade over House/Cassell worth giving up Ray Allen?  Given Rondo's age, athleticism, and ability, he should be playing 35-40 mpg next year.  Backup point guard is progressively becoming less of an issue.  Furthermore, I think Ainge will be able to find someone on the FA market who can step in without having to give up Ray Allen. 

Boston is now a free agent destination.  We don't need to trade to get good role players anymore. 

[Brickowski]

Well, let's see how they do next year.  My fear is that the Celtics will be "one shot wonders" like Miami and Detroit. 

Detroit is a good example of a team whose stars all seemed to get old at the same time.  Detroit has players like Maxiel, Stuckey and Amir Johnson waiting in the wings, but Boston doesn't really have a bench full of young developing players like that. Many of their young players went to MN or Seattle last year.

[Jon]

Well, let's see how they do next year.  My fear is that the Celtics will be "one shot wonders" like Miami and Detroit. 

Detroit is a good example of a team whose stars all seemed to get old at the same time.  Detroit has players like Maxiel, Stuckey and Amir Johnson waiting in the wings, but Boston doesn't really have a bench full of young developing players like that. Many of their young players went to MN or Seattle last year.

Well, a few things to keep in mind.

1) Detroit wasn't the best team in basketball when the won in 2004.  If they play that series 10 times, LA probably wins 9 of them.  I'd call that a fluke as much as you can a 7 games series.  They're probably the worst team to win a title in the past 25-30 years. 

2) Miami got hit with the injury bug big time.  Shaq was older than any of the big three, and much bigger.  It was inevitable his body was going to break down.  He was fading even as they won the title.  None of that appears to be the case with our Big Three. 

3) Allen's value shouldn't decrease much even if his play does.  If anything, he might be worth more after next season than he is now given his expiring the contract the year after.  So, there's no harm in holding onto him.

4) Whether you're worried or not, that package above doesn't make them a better team.  I know I've harped on this, but remember, Boston is now a destination.  Who knows what we can get in the way of players looking to latch on somewhere to pick up a ring? 

[cordobes]

Well, let's see how they do next year.  My fear is that the Celtics will be "one shot wonders" like Miami and Detroit. 

That may happen. But without Allen, that's bond to happen.

[Brickowski]

I'm not interested in a procession of PJ Browns and Sam Cassells.  I want young players with upside coming off the bench, like Rodney Stuckey or Thaddeus Young.

[EJPLAYA]

I'm not interested in a procession of PJ Browns and Sam Cassells.  I want young players with upside coming off the bench, like Rodney Stuckey or Thaddeus Young.

Yeah, we had your ideal team full of young upcoming players last year. It netted us 24 wins and a whole lot of unlucky ping pong balls... Teams full of stars win championships. Teams full of potential get traded and coaches fired. I'll stick with the horses that took us to #17. I didn't think I'd feel this way at this stage, but I am SO glad we traded Big AL right now. If we never win another one with these guys I'd still do it again.

[Brickowski]

I'd do it again too-- but it's done.  Now the issue is what to do going forward.

Fans of a team tend to overrate their own players and underrate players from other teams.  IMHO that's what's happening here.

[EJPLAYA]

I'd do it again too-- but it's done.  Now the issue is what to do going forward.

Fans of a team tend to overrate their own players and underrate players from other teams.  IMHO that's what's happening here.

You are thinking about a HOF likely player for 2 guys that show flashes of being really good but are inconsistent. That's not over-rating what we have, but rather over-rating what they have. Best case scenario if one of them comes anywhere close to what Ray is we lose. I'll take 3 more years of the All-Star vs. potential.

[Who]

I'm not interested in a procession of PJ Browns and Sam Cassells.  I want young players with upside coming off the bench, like Rodney Stuckey or Thaddeus Young.

Danny will add some young players as he goes along. He needs time to that. It won't happen instantly because he gave up so many young assets to land KG and Ray.

Maxiell, Amir Johnson, and Affalo were all drafted in the range where Danny will have picks.

There's no need to give up an All-Star for young bench players.

[Jon]

I'd do it again too-- but it's done.  Now the issue is what to do going forward.

Fans of a team tend to overrate their own players and underrate players from other teams.  IMHO that's what's happening here.

You are thinking about a HOF likely player for 2 guys that show flashes of being really good but are inconsistent. That's not over-rating what we have, but rather over-rating what they have. Best case scenario if one of them comes anywhere close to what Ray is we lose. I'll take 3 more years of the All-Star vs. potential.

Exactly.  There's such an enormous difference between stars and role players in this league.  You can't equate quantity with quality unless you can convince David Stern to let us play 6 players on the court at once. 

I mean if they sign Posey next year, would either of these guys even be on the court during a close playoff game?  That should tell you all you need to know.

Moreover, you seem to leave Rondo and Perkins out of the equation when talking about young talent.  Detroit's entire starting lineup is older, so yes, they have some decent talent on the bench.  The C's, on the other hand, have in Rondo someone clearly better than Stuckey, Maxiell, or Johnson.  Looking at the Celtics 25 and younger crowd vs. Detroit's, I'd say the C's clearly have the advantage based on Rondo alone.  He'll be far better than anyone on Detroit. 

[BballTim]

I don't usually respond to trade ideas because they are absurd and seemingly would never happen in real life.

However, this idea takes absurdity to a whole new level.

Why trade NBA champion Ray Allen? Are you kidding me? This guy deserved the FINALS MVP almost every bit as much as Paul Pierce did. You hear that? FINALS MVP. I know Barbosa is a good player, and Diaw has talent, and even with picks included... but for the love of God, you don't trade Ray Allen right after you win the championship. Especially when he was a critical factor to our success. And don't even get me started on the positives he brings from a leadership standpoint. Just ask Rondo - he said Ray motivated him to improve not only his jumper but overall game.

This is so crazy. People want to trade RAY ALLEN? Jesus (no pun intended).
 

Well said ... TP. Ray is so extremely valuable on so many levels ... I pray to God that he's a Celtic for the remainder of his career, and that number 20 will be hanging in the rafters of the Garden one day.

You are both 100% wrong.  I'll start with a history lesson.

It was very clear by 1989 or 1990 that the Bird-McHale-Parish Celtics were finished as a championship contender.  Bird had a bad back, Len Bias had overdosed and died, and draft choices like Michael Smith and Dee Brown were simply not talented enough.

McHale and Parish still had great value around the league, but the team refused to trade them when they had value.  What?  Trade Kevin McHale? That's preposterous, his number will be hanging from the rafters one day.  Same with Parish.

So, instead of moving these stars for younger players while the stars still had considerable trade value, they were kept, and what we saw was a slow decline culminating in those truly atrocious teams of 1995 and 1996, and a 21-year championship drought.

I'll repeat myself: it's better to trade a player a year too early than a year too late.  The same issues will arise when Garnett and Pierce start to decline. I want to see the Celtics contend for the next 20 years, not just the next two.  And just because we are all basking in the glow of a championship is no reason not to think ahead.   

  First of all, our championship window revolved around Bird. If he couldn't have won a title with Parish and McHale he wouldn't have won with their repacements, and the players that we would have gotten back in a trade wouldn't have won any titles. We could have been better in the 90s and avoided the Duncan tank but we'd still be basking in our first title in 21 years. And your analogy doesn't work. We're not finished as championship contenders. Would you have traded away McHale and Parish in 1986? Not based on hindsight, but would you have broken up a title team that would, barring injury, contend for multiple titles in those next few years in order to keep the team more competitive after it's window ended?

[BballTim]

Well, let's see how they do next year.  My fear is that the Celtics will be "one shot wonders" like Miami and Detroit. 

Detroit is a good example of a team whose stars all seemed to get old at the same time.  Detroit has players like Maxiel, Stuckey and Amir Johnson waiting in the wings, but Boston doesn't really have a bench full of young developing players like that. Many of their young players went to MN or Seattle last year.

  No offense, but didn't you predict this team to win about 45 games? Why would you expect such a dropoff? they have championship experience, Rondo and Perk are improving, and the big 3 are still shouldering a much smaller load than they have throughout their careers.

[Mr October]

Well, let's see how they do next year.  My fear is that the Celtics will be "one shot wonders" like Miami and Detroit. 

Detroit is a good example of a team whose stars all seemed to get old at the same time.  Detroit has players like Maxiel, Stuckey and Amir Johnson waiting in the wings, but Boston doesn't really have a bench full of young developing players like that. Many of their young players went to MN or Seattle last year.

  No offense, but didn't you predict this team to win about 45 games? Why would you expect such a dropoff? they have championship experience, Rondo and Perk are improving, and the big 3 are still shouldering a much smaller load than they have throughout their careers.

Yup. I fully expect the C's to be even better next year. Their chemistry will be even better. After all that he learned this post season, Rondo is going to be insane. He is only 22!!!

[BballTim]

Fans of a team tend to overrate their own players and underrate players from other teams.  IMHO that's what's happening here.

  Fans might overrate their own players, but people on these boards don't. Paul Pierce was frequently called a fringe top 30 player last year. There was a long list of players with more upside than Big Al, including Collison, Bogut and Etan Thomas. Perkins would never be good enough to be a starting center on a decent team and Rondo was one of the worst starting PGs in the league.