Author Topic: Ben and Rich Paul backed into a corner  (Read 12929 times)

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Re: Ben and Rich Paul backed into a corner
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2021, 08:30:07 AM »

Offline Big333223

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I think the conversation around "The Process" is silly. Philly didn't do anything different than what OKC is doing now or what Orlando did starting in 2012. And they're no different than the Cavs tanking for Lebron, the Celtics tanking for Duncan, or the Rockets tanking for Hakeem.

The only real difference is the branding. It wasn't just tanking, it was The Process. Giving it a name gave sports media something to jabber about and a way to pretend it was different in some way than any other team tanking when it really wasn't.
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Re: Ben and Rich Paul backed into a corner
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2021, 08:54:35 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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I think the conversation around "The Process" is silly. Philly didn't do anything different than what OKC is doing now or what Orlando did starting in 2012. And they're no different than the Cavs tanking for Lebron, the Celtics tanking for Duncan, or the Rockets tanking for Hakeem.

The only real difference is the branding. It wasn't just tanking, it was The Process. Giving it a name gave sports media something to jabber about and a way to pretend it was different in some way than any other team tanking when it really wasn't.

Well, yes and no: to put a twist on McLuhan, "the message was the medium." You're right that the branding was different, but the way in which the branding was different was significant. Even teams that are tanking will try to put bodies in the arena by avoiding the fact that the goal is to lose enough to get a good lottery position. Philly just said "hell yeah, we're going to lose a lot of games over the next few years, and we'll be rewarded for it, so stick with us."

By branding it and promoting it as a half-decade (or more!) of legitimately anti-competitive behaviour, Hinkie and company absolutely closed the door on their ability to ever "pull off" The Process. Which is why it's mostly snake oil: Fans will support bad teams that are trying to be good. That's different from expecting people to continue to come out to support the Washington Generals on a vague promise that they will one day become the Harlem Globetrotters.
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Re: Ben and Rich Paul backed into a corner
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2021, 11:27:51 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I think the conversation around "The Process" is silly. Philly didn't do anything different than what OKC is doing now or what Orlando did starting in 2012. And they're no different than the Cavs tanking for Lebron, the Celtics tanking for Duncan, or the Rockets tanking for Hakeem.

The only real difference is the branding. It wasn't just tanking, it was The Process. Giving it a name gave sports media something to jabber about and a way to pretend it was different in some way than any other team tanking when it really wasn't.
SEA/OKC did it in 2007 as well and then full on tanked for 2.5 seasons.  They literally did the exact same thing as the Sixers.  They just got better players in the draft that were more immediately ready to play (i.e. Durant, Green, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka).  But if you compare the moves, they made the same type of moves i.e. selling off veterans, loading up on draft picks, and not signing anyone in free agency.  But because Durant immediately played (and was actually good) it just didn't really alter the perception of the team like drafting Embiid did for the Sixers. 
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Re: Ben and Rich Paul backed into a corner
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2021, 11:52:42 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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Get the popcorn going.

Quote
Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
Simmons is clearly aware of sanctions available to organization to fine and suspend him, including withholding of salary. But so far, Simmons appears willing to carry out a plan of forcing his way to a new team. Sixers have yet to find a a trade they’re willing to make for him.

Quote
Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
 · 8m
ESPN Sources: Philadelphia 76ers All-Star Ben Simmons will not report for opening of training camp next week and intends to never play another game for the franchise. Simmons hasn’t spoken to team since a late August meeting when he communicated this message to Sixers officials.


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Re: Ben and Rich Paul backed into a corner
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2021, 12:05:12 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Here is a list of who PHI drafted as a result of their multiyear tank (5 top 10 picks):

2014
#3 Embiid
#10 Payton

2015
#3 Okafor

2016
#1 Simmons

2017
#1 Fultz (Traded Up)

I think this proves is why tanking and planning to build your team through the draft is a bad strategy, or at best a risky strategy.  Drafting is very hard thing to do.  You pick a player you think will be good, and it turns out to be a bust.

The Sixers could have picked Porzingis, Lavine, Brown, and Tatum instead of Okafor, Payton, Simmons, and Fultz but no team is going to end up with the perfect pick every time.  Their plan was that they would have so many high picks that they would get enough right to end up good.

It simply did not work that way for them and does not work that way for most teams that go that route.  Now if they can get something decent for Simmons, say McCollum, they are not all that bad off in spite of all the bad picks and other mistakes.  But it won't be the direct result of the tank which was blatant.

Re: Ben and Rich Paul backed into a corner
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2021, 12:15:35 PM »

Offline footey

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Windhorst on his podcast noted that Simmons has already received 25% of his salary, and is due another 25% in October around the start of training camp.  Will be interesting to see what club decides to do with that payment if Simmons refuses to report to camp.  Do they withhold it? Put it in escrow?  They have the right to penalize him a daily amount, but does that enable them to withhold the entire 2nd installment?

BTW, Lebron gets 50% of his salary in July.   The best players get a lot of their salary up front.  Found this very interesting. I thought they all just got their paychecks with the start of the season.

Re: Ben and Rich Paul backed into a corner
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2021, 12:21:24 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Here is a list of who PHI drafted as a result of their multiyear tank (5 top 10 picks):

2014
#3 Embiid
#10 Payton

2015
#3 Okafor

2016
#1 Simmons

2017
#1 Fultz (Traded Up)

I think this proves is why tanking and planning to build your team through the draft is a bad strategy, or at best a risky strategy.  Drafting is very hard thing to do.  You pick a player you think will be good, and it turns out to be a bust.

The Sixers could have picked Porzingis, Lavine, Brown, and Tatum instead of Okafor, Payton, Simmons, and Fultz but no team is going to end up with the perfect pick every time.  Their plan was that they would have so many high picks that they would get enough right to end up good.

It simply did not work that way for them and does not work that way for most teams that go that route.  Now if they can get something decent for Simmons, say McCollum, they are not all that bad off in spite of all the bad picks and other mistakes.  But it won't be the direct result of the tank which was blatant.
Or it shows why that method might actually work i.e. you need several bites at the apple to make sure you land THE guy and enough supporting cast to really make it work.

As we've seen time and time again, not all #1 picks (or top 3) are created equal.  Even in drafts where there is a consensus player at the top, they aren't always franchise players.  I mean Kenyon Martin was the consensus #1 pick and ended up being the best player from his draft class (2nd round pick Michael Redd really is his only competition), but Martin was no where near a franchise player.  So you have to plan on drafting in the top 5 for several years or you aren't going to be able to build enough player assets to make it work.  Even if you end up with one of those special players (i.e. the Shaq, Duncan, or James' of the world) the teams often become too good too quickly to properly build around them.  Orlando ended up barely missing the playoffs, but then winning the lottery the next year or the Magic don't get Penny and probably end up a lot different.  Cleveland never could get enough young talent around James to win (the Boozer fiasco didn't help).  Of course the Spurs were different in that they had the talent, tanked hard (brought on by injury), landed Duncan and never won less than 50 games in his career.

Bottoming out for a year only works if you actually win the lottery and it by happen stance ends up being the correct year to bottom out in and then you need luck for your guy to stay healthy (see Greg Oden).  Because the draft is such a crap shoot, if you are a team that really does need to win through the draft (which is most of the league), then the proper way to do that is to plan on being a truly bad team for several seasons in a row to give you a real shot at landing the franchise altering talent and sufficient depth around said player to really compete.
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Re: Ben and Rich Paul backed into a corner
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2021, 12:23:04 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Here is a list of who PHI drafted as a result of their multiyear tank (5 top 10 picks):

2014
#3 Embiid
#10 Payton

2015
#3 Okafor

2016
#1 Simmons

2017
#1 Fultz (Traded Up)

I think this proves is why tanking and planning to build your team through the draft is a bad strategy, or at best a risky strategy.  Drafting is very hard thing to do.  You pick a player you think will be good, and it turns out to be a bust.

The Sixers could have picked Porzingis, Lavine, Brown, and Tatum instead of Okafor, Payton, Simmons, and Fultz but no team is going to end up with the perfect pick every time.  Their plan was that they would have so many high picks that they would get enough right to end up good.

It simply did not work that way for them and does not work that way for most teams that go that route.  Now if they can get something decent for Simmons, say McCollum, they are not all that bad off in spite of all the bad picks and other mistakes.  But it won't be the direct result of the tank which was blatant.

In a vacuum, it's a pretty sound strategy. Get high picks, get transcendent talent, win championships.  But that's not how it works in the real world.  Drafting is a pretty complex complex exercise, dealing with personnel can be difficult at times (see that with Simmons right now).  A lot of variables that can cause things to go off the rails. 


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Re: Ben and Rich Paul backed into a corner
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2021, 12:41:59 PM »

Online Celtics2021

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Windhorst on his podcast noted that Simmons has already received 25% of his salary, and is due another 25% in October around the start of training camp.  Will be interesting to see what club decides to do with that payment if Simmons refuses to report to camp.  Do they withhold it? Put it in escrow?  They have the right to penalize him a daily amount, but does that enable them to withhold the entire 2nd installment?

BTW, Lebron gets 50% of his salary in July.   The best players get a lot of their salary up front.  Found this very interesting. I thought they all just got their paychecks with the start of the season.

They would have a very difficult time withholding more than the amount they’re allowed to fine him for missing the first few days of training camp.

Also, as a reminder, anything they fine Simmons goes to charity, so the Sixers are still out the money either way.

Re: Ben and Rich Paul backed into a corner
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2021, 01:00:18 PM »

Offline moiso

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Here is a list of who PHI drafted as a result of their multiyear tank (5 top 10 picks):

2014
#3 Embiid
#10 Payton

2015
#3 Okafor

2016
#1 Simmons

2017
#1 Fultz (Traded Up)

I think this proves is why tanking and planning to build your team through the draft is a bad strategy, or at best a risky strategy.  Drafting is very hard thing to do.  You pick a player you think will be good, and it turns out to be a bust.

The Sixers could have picked Porzingis, Lavine, Brown, and Tatum instead of Okafor, Payton, Simmons, and Fultz but no team is going to end up with the perfect pick every time.  Their plan was that they would have so many high picks that they would get enough right to end up good.

It simply did not work that way for them and does not work that way for most teams that go that route.  Now if they can get something decent for Simmons, say McCollum, they are not all that bad off in spite of all the bad picks and other mistakes.  But it won't be the direct result of the tank which was blatant.
Or it shows why that method might actually work i.e. you need several bites at the apple to make sure you land THE guy and enough supporting cast to really make it work.

As we've seen time and time again, not all #1 picks (or top 3) are created equal.  Even in drafts where there is a consensus player at the top, they aren't always franchise players.  I mean Kenyon Martin was the consensus #1 pick and ended up being the best player from his draft class (2nd round pick Michael Redd really is his only competition), but Martin was no where near a franchise player.  So you have to plan on drafting in the top 5 for several years or you aren't going to be able to build enough player assets to make it work.  Even if you end up with one of those special players (i.e. the Shaq, Duncan, or James' of the world) the teams often become too good too quickly to properly build around them.  Orlando ended up barely missing the playoffs, but then winning the lottery the next year or the Magic don't get Penny and probably end up a lot different.  Cleveland never could get enough young talent around James to win (the Boozer fiasco didn't help).  Of course the Spurs were different in that they had the talent, tanked hard (brought on by injury), landed Duncan and never won less than 50 games in his career.

Bottoming out for a year only works if you actually win the lottery and it by happen stance ends up being the correct year to bottom out in and then you need luck for your guy to stay healthy (see Greg Oden).  Because the draft is such a crap shoot, if you are a team that really does need to win through the draft (which is most of the league), then the proper way to do that is to plan on being a truly bad team for several seasons in a row to give you a real shot at landing the franchise altering talent and sufficient depth around said player to really compete.
Then maybe the problem is that they didn't tank long enough.   When guys that you drafted at the beginning of the tank are starting to retire by the end of the tank- that's when you know a team has tanked long enough to truly make sure that the apple is finished ;D

Re: Ben and Rich Paul backed into a corner
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2021, 01:10:22 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Here is a list of who PHI drafted as a result of their multiyear tank (5 top 10 picks):

2014
#3 Embiid
#10 Payton

2015
#3 Okafor

2016
#1 Simmons

2017
#1 Fultz (Traded Up)

I think this proves is why tanking and planning to build your team through the draft is a bad strategy, or at best a risky strategy.  Drafting is very hard thing to do.  You pick a player you think will be good, and it turns out to be a bust.

The Sixers could have picked Porzingis, Lavine, Brown, and Tatum instead of Okafor, Payton, Simmons, and Fultz but no team is going to end up with the perfect pick every time.  Their plan was that they would have so many high picks that they would get enough right to end up good.

It simply did not work that way for them and does not work that way for most teams that go that route.  Now if they can get something decent for Simmons, say McCollum, they are not all that bad off in spite of all the bad picks and other mistakes.  But it won't be the direct result of the tank which was blatant.
Or it shows why that method might actually work i.e. you need several bites at the apple to make sure you land THE guy and enough supporting cast to really make it work.

As we've seen time and time again, not all #1 picks (or top 3) are created equal.  Even in drafts where there is a consensus player at the top, they aren't always franchise players.  I mean Kenyon Martin was the consensus #1 pick and ended up being the best player from his draft class (2nd round pick Michael Redd really is his only competition), but Martin was no where near a franchise player.  So you have to plan on drafting in the top 5 for several years or you aren't going to be able to build enough player assets to make it work.  Even if you end up with one of those special players (i.e. the Shaq, Duncan, or James' of the world) the teams often become too good too quickly to properly build around them.  Orlando ended up barely missing the playoffs, but then winning the lottery the next year or the Magic don't get Penny and probably end up a lot different.  Cleveland never could get enough young talent around James to win (the Boozer fiasco didn't help).  Of course the Spurs were different in that they had the talent, tanked hard (brought on by injury), landed Duncan and never won less than 50 games in his career.

Bottoming out for a year only works if you actually win the lottery and it by happen stance ends up being the correct year to bottom out in and then you need luck for your guy to stay healthy (see Greg Oden).  Because the draft is such a crap shoot, if you are a team that really does need to win through the draft (which is most of the league), then the proper way to do that is to plan on being a truly bad team for several seasons in a row to give you a real shot at landing the franchise altering talent and sufficient depth around said player to really compete.
Then maybe the problem is that they didn't tank long enough.   When guys that you drafted at the beginning of the tank are starting to retire by the end of the tank- that's when you know a team has tanked long enough to truly make sure that the apple is finished ;D
so the Kings?
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

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Re: Ben and Rich Paul backed into a corner
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2021, 02:23:39 PM »

Offline Kernewek

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I think the conversation around "The Process" is silly. Philly didn't do anything different than what OKC is doing now or what Orlando did starting in 2012. And they're no different than the Cavs tanking for Lebron, the Celtics tanking for Duncan, or the Rockets tanking for Hakeem.

The only real difference is the branding. It wasn't just tanking, it was The Process. Giving it a name gave sports media something to jabber about and a way to pretend it was different in some way than any other team tanking when it really wasn't.
SEA/OKC did it in 2007 as well and then full on tanked for 2.5 seasons.  They literally did the exact same thing as the Sixers.  They just got better players in the draft that were more immediately ready to play (i.e. Durant, Green, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka).  But if you compare the moves, they made the same type of moves i.e. selling off veterans, loading up on draft picks, and not signing anyone in free agency.  But because Durant immediately played (and was actually good) it just didn't really alter the perception of the team like drafting Embiid did for the Sixers.

Don't know how tin-foil-y we want to get here but it's not a terrible leap to imagine that Seattle's post-Schultz ownership had a vested interest in making the team not very good (to better facilitate moving to OKC)
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But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.

Re: Ben and Rich Paul backed into a corner
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2021, 02:30:53 PM »

Offline greg683x

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I might have to drastically lower my hatred for the 76ers if they put their foot down here and make Ben forfeit $250k a game.

This is a great opportunity for NBA teams to send a message to the players
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Re: Ben and Rich Paul backed into a corner
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2021, 02:38:03 PM »

Offline footey

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Windhorst on his podcast noted that Simmons has already received 25% of his salary, and is due another 25% in October around the start of training camp.  Will be interesting to see what club decides to do with that payment if Simmons refuses to report to camp.  Do they withhold it? Put it in escrow?  They have the right to penalize him a daily amount, but does that enable them to withhold the entire 2nd installment?

BTW, Lebron gets 50% of his salary in July.   The best players get a lot of their salary up front.  Found this very interesting. I thought they all just got their paychecks with the start of the season.

They would have a very difficult time withholding more than the amount they’re allowed to fine him for missing the first few days of training camp.

Also, as a reminder, anything they fine Simmons goes to charity, so the Sixers are still out the money either way.

Owners would be wise to change that next CBA.  They probably never thought through the consequences of a max player refusing to show up. 

Re: Ben and Rich Paul backed into a corner
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2021, 02:38:09 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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This guy basically cemented himself as one of the biggest losers in Philly sports

Honestly, I kind of want to see PHI not trade him and just keep him for 3-4 years having him not play another NBA game lol. Would be chaos but I'm all for that!

But seriously what team would want him?? All these years talking about improving his shot and those shooting videos in the offseason, it's obvious Simmons doesn't really care and he is what he is, a complete liability in big games.
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