Stretch Big: Do the Celtics need one?

[perks-a-beast]

I hear a lot on here about how the Celtics need a 4/5 who can stretch the floor with their shooting ability. It seems to me the Offense was much more fluid when they had Horford could draw bigs out of the paint because he was a legitimate threat from down town. But is it an absolute necessity in today’s NBA? And will Stevens prioritize acquiring one?

Here are same names I’d like to see Stevens target (gonna take me a while to get used to saying Stevens rather than Ainge lol).

Draft
Franz Wagner
Filip Petrusev
Kai Jones
Usman Garuba
Jeremiah Robinson-Earl
Matthew Hurt
Isaiah Todd
Isaiah Livers

Free agents
Kelly Olynyk
John Collins (RFA)
Lauri Markkanen (RFA)
Serge Ibaka

Via trade
Myles Turner
Kristaps Porzingiz
Larry Nance Jr
Kevin Love
Jerami Grant
Al Horford
Dario Saric
Chris Boucher
Davis Bertans

Missing anyone?

Personally, I’d love to target Wagner in the draft, then sign KO, but idk if The Celtics have the assets or cap space for those maneuvers.

[Roy H.]

You need to fill either the four or five with a guy who can stretch the defense, yes.  Teams that have more than one guy on the floor who can’t shoot are going to struggle offensively.

[Celtics2021]

Wagner is not a stretch big.  He’s a lengthy wing, and is best suited to harass 2’s and 3’s, and not guard 4’s and 5’s.  I would love him on the Celtics, but turning him into a PF as a rookie would be a huge mistake.  Maybe in half a decade when he’s filled out he can play the 4.  On top of that, his 3-point shooting is his biggest weakness, making him neither stretchy nor a big.

[#1P4P]

With Brown and Tatum being All Stars/burgeoning All NBA caliber players, we’re ready to trade draft compensation for veteran players.

Rookies typically need several seasons to develop into a contributor for a title contender and waiting 2,3,4 more seasons for a young player to develop is not in our timeframe unless there’s a generational talent available.

The options posted are interesting particularly Nance Jr, Collins, Boucher, Grant, and Markannen as younger options and Horford, Olynyk, and Ibaka as older ones. I still think Rob has the ability to be a star when healthy, but until then, he should be sharing the minute load like he did this year with Tristan. Hopefully, the front office gets the best option without exhausting the treasure chest.

[tstorey_97]

TP to perks for putting together this post.

Yes Horford made the Celtics a different team and the roster when he was here had him at "center" (ie, he was the biggest player on the court for the Celtics) a lot.

Defense is a balancing act and, if Robert/Thompson are the centers next year having a competent power forward with shooting chops seems like a sensible move.

Oddly enough Jabari Parker when on the court with Thompson for the few minutes he played this year was "sort of" a power forward (6'8" 245 pounds) although he is not a three point threat and he never seemed to get the defense down.

The list of PF's look good and having a big who can step back and be effective from three would make Brown and Tatum better.

I don't see a Celtics team with a "good" power forward added to the current roster beating the Nets this year, but, with the right player they'd be a heck of a lot closer to getting the better of a "smallish" Nets team.

I've been watching playoff games this week and listen, Jaylen Brown and Jason Tatum play and shoot well in the playoffs.....their numbers are challenged at the highest level, but these guys don't fall off like so many of the players I've been watching. 

[CFAN38]

Wagner is not a stretch big.  He’s a lengthy wing, and is best suited to harass 2’s and 3’s, and not guard 4’s and 5’s.  I would love him on the Celtics, but turning him into a PF as a rookie would be a huge mistake.  Maybe in half a decade when he’s filled out he can play the 4.  On top of that, his 3-point shooting is his biggest weakness, making him neither stretchy nor a big.

I agree on the shot but with the sizing down of the 4 in the NBA I think he has enough size even as a rookie. I’ve seen reports that he is 6’9”+ and at least 225lbs that in the size range of most larger forwards.

[Celtics2021]

Wagner is not a stretch big.  He’s a lengthy wing, and is best suited to harass 2’s and 3’s, and not guard 4’s and 5’s.  I would love him on the Celtics, but turning him into a PF as a rookie would be a huge mistake.  Maybe in half a decade when he’s filled out he can play the 4.  On top of that, his 3-point shooting is his biggest weakness, making him neither stretchy nor a big.

I agree on the shot but with the sizing down of the 4 in the NBA I think he has enough size even as a rookie. I’ve seen reports that he is 6’9”+ and at least 225lbs that in the size range of most larger forwards.

Can he hold up against some NBA 4s?  Sure.  Is that the best use of his abilities?  No.  He’s a menace against wings because he has the lateral agility to keep in front of them and the length to really impede them.  Put him against even a smaller 4 and he has the appropriate length and probably the bare minimum of strength, but now he’s just a body rather than causing a mismatch.

[footey]

Wagner is not a stretch big.  He’s a lengthy wing, and is best suited to harass 2’s and 3’s, and not guard 4’s and 5’s.  I would love him on the Celtics, but turning him into a PF as a rookie would be a huge mistake.  Maybe in half a decade when he’s filled out he can play the 4.  On top of that, his 3-point shooting is his biggest weakness, making him neither stretchy nor a big.

This seems like an old school Karl Malone take on power forward position. Wagner fits the modern prototype.

[Celtics2021]

Wagner is not a stretch big.  He’s a lengthy wing, and is best suited to harass 2’s and 3’s, and not guard 4’s and 5’s.  I would love him on the Celtics, but turning him into a PF as a rookie would be a huge mistake.  Maybe in half a decade when he’s filled out he can play the 4.  On top of that, his 3-point shooting is his biggest weakness, making him neither stretchy nor a big.

This seems like an old school Karl Malone take on power forward position. Wagner fits the modern prototype.

It really isn’t an old school take.  Can Wagner guard Julius Randle? Maybe a bit, but not as effectively as he’d guard Barrett or Bullock.  Can he guard Tobias Harris?  Yeah, but he’d hinder Seth Curry more.  Could he guard Hachimura or Bertans? Maybe, but he’d be better on Beal.

What makes Wagner special is the combination of lateral agility, quick hands, and length to guard perimeter players who aren’t used to seeing a guy with a wingspan over 7 feet keep up with them like that.  The burly power forwards are going to over power him at times, and the ones that stand in the corner and just shoot threes waste his defensive agility.  He’s a lottery-caliber pick because he’s a unique wing, not because he’s resembles a stretch 4.

[tenn_smoothie]

Seems a Kemba for Horford trade would be a big plus for the Celtics.

I understand the age difference, but it's obvious our current lineup is not the answer. Horford has not put much mileage on his body the past two seasons and he probably has two more years as a quality starter, after which time, he plays a PJ Brown type role. Dwight Howard continues, at 35, to be effective for his team.  We desperately need size with talent. We have plenty of perimeter players and need to move on from the score-first PG.

[CFAN38]

Wagner is not a stretch big.  He’s a lengthy wing, and is best suited to harass 2’s and 3’s, and not guard 4’s and 5’s.  I would love him on the Celtics, but turning him into a PF as a rookie would be a huge mistake.  Maybe in half a decade when he’s filled out he can play the 4.  On top of that, his 3-point shooting is his biggest weakness, making him neither stretchy nor a big.

This seems like an old school Karl Malone take on power forward position. Wagner fits the modern prototype.

It really isn’t an old school take.  Can Wagner guard Julius Randle? Maybe a bit, but not as effectively as he’d guard Barrett or Bullock.  Can he guard Tobias Harris?  Yeah, but he’d hinder Seth Curry more.  Could he guard Hachimura or Bertans? Maybe, but he’d be better on Beal.

What makes Wagner special is the combination of lateral agility, quick hands, and length to guard perimeter players who aren’t used to seeing a guy with a wingspan over 7 feet keep up with them like that.  The burly power forwards are going to over power him at times, and the ones that stand in the corner and just shoot threes waste his defensive agility.  He’s a lottery-caliber pick because he’s a unique wing, not because he’s resembles a stretch 4.

I maybe wrong but my impression of Wagner is that he will be a solid defender of moderate to big wings and smaller bigs. I expect him to struggle against sub 6’6 athletic NBA wings and larger bigs. You seem to view him as an all NBA level defender in the mold of a Ben Simmons. I personally think this is a more accurate assessment of Scottie Barnes and not Wagner.

[Celtics2021]

Wagner is not a stretch big.  He’s a lengthy wing, and is best suited to harass 2’s and 3’s, and not guard 4’s and 5’s.  I would love him on the Celtics, but turning him into a PF as a rookie would be a huge mistake.  Maybe in half a decade when he’s filled out he can play the 4.  On top of that, his 3-point shooting is his biggest weakness, making him neither stretchy nor a big.

This seems like an old school Karl Malone take on power forward position. Wagner fits the modern prototype.

It really isn’t an old school take.  Can Wagner guard Julius Randle? Maybe a bit, but not as effectively as he’d guard Barrett or Bullock.  Can he guard Tobias Harris?  Yeah, but he’d hinder Seth Curry more.  Could he guard Hachimura or Bertans? Maybe, but he’d be better on Beal.

What makes Wagner special is the combination of lateral agility, quick hands, and length to guard perimeter players who aren’t used to seeing a guy with a wingspan over 7 feet keep up with them like that.  The burly power forwards are going to over power him at times, and the ones that stand in the corner and just shoot threes waste his defensive agility.  He’s a lottery-caliber pick because he’s a unique wing, not because he’s resembles a stretch 4.

I maybe wrong but my impression of Wagner is that he will be a solid defender of moderate to big wings and smaller bigs. I expect him to struggle against sub 6’6 athletic NBA wings and larger bigs. You seem to view him as an all NBA level defender in the mold of a Ben Simmons. I personally think this is a more accurate assessment of Scottie Barnes and not Wagner.

It’s funny you mention Barnes, who Wagner obliterated in their matchup.

But yes, Wagner is an All-NBA defender of wings, who can switch onto bigs and guards, and not a defender of bigs who switches onto wings.  As he gets older, he may trade a little of that agility for strength, but right now, he’s a wing.

[Jvalin]

On the one hand, Tatum and Kemba score plenty of their points out of the PnR. They'd be better suited alongside a good screener. Fwiw, our best screener right now is probably Thompson. On the other hand, Brown is a slasher. He'd be better suited alongside a stretch 5, cause he'd have more space to attack the basket. Go figure.

If I were Stevens, I'd opt for a PnR specialist at the 5 and I'd plan to use Tatum as a small ball 4. I reckon Tatum is a mismatch nightmare at the 4. Opposing defenders aren't mobile enough to stay in front of him on the perimeter. That's a massive advantage in our favour, especially since he can put the ball on the floor and create his own shot.

Btw, I'm still kinda bummed we blew our chance to trade for Jarrett Allen or Christian Wood. Allen and Bam are possibly the best PnR bigs in the NBA right now. Wood can do both: He can set picks on the perimeter and then roll hard to the basket. He can also stretch the floor all the way to the 3pt line. Oh well.

[Smartacus]

KO returning makes a lot of sense. Not sure what he'd be worth on the open market but Olynyk might take a team friendly deal the opportunity to return to playing with Tatum and Brown.

Would you rather make $11 Million in Boston cutting 2 hour flight from your hometown or Sacramento for $15 Million?

I supported signing Hayward at the time but would hace been fine signing KO to what the Heat gave him.

He's made the most out of the Houston Opportunity.

https://youtu.be/8QlXLf_Mn0M
Nasty play at :46

[Jvalin]

KO returning makes a lot of sense. Not sure what he'd be worth on the open market but Olynyk might take a team friendly deal the opportunity to return to playing with Tatum and Brown.

Would you rather make $11 Million in Boston cutting 2 hour flight from your hometown or Sacramento for $15 Million?

I supported signing Hayward at the time but would hace been fine signing KO to what the Heat gave him.

He's made the most out of the Houston Opportunity.

https://youtu.be/8QlXLf_Mn0M
Nasty play at :46

How do we offer him $11 million?

- Obviously, we cannot sign him via cap space.
- If we use the Hayward TPE for a sign and trade, we'd become hard capped at the apron. As things stand right now, we are $7,106,609 below the apron without even including Fournier who's about to hit free agency.
- The non-taxpayer MLE starts at around $9.5 million. Again, we'd become hard capped at the apron.

If we want Olynyk, we'd have to dump some serious salary first. Realistically speaking, it's close to impossible.