Author Topic: Do the Celtics have a team leader problem?  (Read 4610 times)

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Re: Do the Celtics have a team leader problem?
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2021, 11:47:58 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Well…there is real problem in all the. nBA now ….there is no true hierarchy I can tell other than the direct controlling owners .  Silver caters to every Bron whim. And so it goes on down the line.  This all seems strange from where I come from.

How do you have a leader when nobody is allowed to actually BE the leader ?

Is it always the highest paid person in the organization .?  That seems to be the only std today as to who is really in charge or WHO calls the shots .

This lack of respect for authority seems to trickle…down though the ranks and I personally would not like to be or work this type of system .

Re: Do the Celtics have a team leader problem?
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2021, 12:28:17 PM »

Offline greg683x

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Define "leader" and tell me why we blow up the team just to define who it is.

Perhaps you meant "captain".  The role is open currently, but bringing back this moniker may be a good thing.  That said, Tatum is not suited for the role as you stated.

What the team needed (before the Horford trade) was more guys with leadership qualities.  They now have Smart, Horford and Brown, all guys who can be vocal, be role models and push each other to be better.

My definition of leader on an NBA team is the #1 guy. The guy who you can say definitely ‘this is his team’. He rallies the team he gets in other player’s faces and they either fear or respect him. He is either the best player on the team or has been in the best player on the team in the recent past.

https://youtu.be/o1looE2uSzs

Greg

Re: Do the Celtics have a team leader problem?
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2021, 08:01:51 PM »

Kiorrik

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So anyway.

I reckon needing a "leader" is overrated.

I think every single person on this squad brings their own upside. Their own part of that leadership.

Let Marcus lead in defence, hustle.

Let Jayson lead in scoring, putting the team on his back.

Let Jaylen lead in off-the-court stuff, maybe also in talking to refs since he seems very composed.

Let [open position] lead in being the enforcer on the court.

Seriously. Time to think different.

Re: Do the Celtics have a team leader problem?
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2021, 08:39:50 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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So anyway.

I reckon needing a "leader" is overrated.

I think every single person on this squad brings their own upside. Their own part of that leadership.

Let Marcus lead in defence, hustle.

Let Jayson lead in scoring, putting the team on his back.

Let Jaylen lead in off-the-court stuff, maybe also in talking to refs since he seems very composed.

Let [open position] lead in being the enforcer on the court.

Seriously. Time to think different.

No ship without a captain..listen to cornbread’s latest interview on the subject.

Re: Do the Celtics have a team leader problem?
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2021, 08:42:44 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Leadership starts from the top and the biggest issue with this team is accountability. BS had none and he lost the locker room a few times. Then somehow he got promoted so ownership is also a failure at holding the guys accountable. It's been said by current and past players, guys do what they want on this club. I don't see anything changing unless a very strong and empowered coach incorporates change or the players that can't do their jobs are moved. Tatum and Brown are young so I have hope they can learn what it takes.

Re: Do the Celtics have a team leader problem?
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2021, 04:41:27 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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Looks like Brad has anointed the Jays as co-leaders. Let’s see how that works.

Re: Do the Celtics have a team leader problem?
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2021, 09:38:02 PM »

Offline radiohead

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Thought I’d put this here. Big Al’s arrival hopefully reinvigorates the culture of Celtic Pride.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10006208-report-celtics-saw-lack-of-reaction-to-kyrie-irving-stomping-logo-as-a-red-flag

Re: Do the Celtics have a team leader problem?
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2021, 09:46:29 PM »

Offline Kuberski33

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Leader? Isn’t that what they brought big Al in for?
Cedric Maxwell does not think so.  In his podcast the other day he said that Al is respected, but he's not one to get in people's face and call them out if they're not engaged. Max said he didn't do it when he was here before and won't do it now.

I think the team leader needs to be either or both of the Jay's so they're not likely to have a leader until one of them emerges and decides to do it. Neither may have it in him.  But only time will tell.  I do think it has to happen in order for this team to get back in championship contention.

Re: Do the Celtics have a team leader problem?
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2021, 03:19:32 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Thought I’d put this here. Big Al’s arrival hopefully reinvigorates the culture of Celtic Pride.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10006208-report-celtics-saw-lack-of-reaction-to-kyrie-irving-stomping-logo-as-a-red-flag
If we're banking on the guy who left us for Philly to reinvigorate our pride (something that should not need doing at all!) then we're in trouble
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Do the Celtics have a team leader problem?
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2021, 03:27:51 AM »

Offline Muzzy66

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It is safe to say that Tatum did not seek nor does he relish the team leader leader position. We can agree that this position was thrust on him unexpectedly.

I don't think that's safe to say at all. 

I think the fact that Tatum has scored 50+ points three times, and carried the team to wins in all three of them, says a lot about his willingness to put the team on his back when they need it. 

Tatum isn't the most vocal person out there - he's not the type to go around screaming at his teammates.  But that doesn't mean he isn't a leader or doesn't relish the leadership role.  He's very young and learning what it takes to be a leader, but I thin he's been showing flashes of leadership ability since his rookie year, when he stepped up huge and was instrumental in helping carry the Celtics to the ECF.

If you really pay attention to Tatum, I actually think it seems pretty clear that he greatly desires that leadership role.  It's just taking him some time to grow in to it, which is to be expected.


Third, and perhaps most important, Tatum’s personality does not lend itself to leadership in this situation. Because of his mild, shy, and introvert personality, Tatum will most likely defer to the likes of Brown and Smart. He is younger than them, he has less seniority  than them, and I am not sure that Brown will admit Tatum has more game than him. It is not surprising that it is Brown and Smart that have scuffled in the locker room, because the exhibit more  the alpha male personality. Tatum just doesn’t seem to have the personality to embrace the leadership that was prematurely thrust on him.

Again, I couldn't disagree more.

Not everybody leads the same way.  Tim Duncan was also a mild, shy and introverted guy but nobody has ever questioned his leadership ability when he carried the Spurs to numerous championships.  Being a leader doesn't always require somebody who is loud, aggressive and egotistical.  Sometimes all you need to do in order to earn your teammates respect as their leader is to go out there and show them that when they need it, you're the man who's going to put them on your back and carry them over the line. 
 
I may have missed it, but can someone post anything that shows any player on the Celtics acknowledging Tatum as the leader on this team.

The Cs can take steps to fix this ….

a. Trade Brown and Smart if they do not accept Tatum as the team leader. This is drastic, but Tatum would probably be able to lead younger players that accept his leadership and tenure in the league. Problem is, is he ready to wait for those players to develop.

b. Keep Brown and Smart but name Tatum the team captain, have him present at introductory pressers for new signings, and make other moves and pronouncements that solidify him as the captain.

I don't think any of this is necessary.  I haven't seen anybody refer to Tatum as the team leader, but I haven't seen anybody refer to Brown or Smart as the team leader either. 

It's important to understand that Tatum and Brown are 23/24 years old.  They have only been in the league for like 4 years, and this is really the first year they both emerged as genuine stars.  This isn't a Lebron/Wade in Miami situation.  These guys are growing together.  I think they looked at Horford as their leader in the past. With him gone I think they tried to look to Kemba as that guy -  but while Kemba is a true pro, I don't think he's necessarily a leader.  So with lack of guidance from him I think they turned to Brad Stevens as a last ditch effort to find their leader - and he just didn't have that gene in him. So the team for much of the year was lost.

But as the season went on I think Tatum realised that SOMEBODY has to carry this team, and he started showing indications that he was ready to be that guy. Next season I think he will cement this much more clearly and I think having Horford back will help in a huge way to lead the way for him on how to take that step from being a upcoming prospect, to being an All-Star, to being a true franchise leader.

Time will tell.

Re: Do the Celtics have a team leader problem?
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2021, 03:31:58 AM »

Offline Muzzy66

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Leader? Isn’t that what they brought big Al in for?
Cedric Maxwell does not think so.  In his podcast the other day he said that Al is respected, but he's not one to get in people's face and call them out if they're not engaged. Max said he didn't do it when he was here before and won't do it now.

I think the team leader needs to be either or both of the Jay's so they're not likely to have a leader until one of them emerges and decides to do it. Neither may have it in him.  But only time will tell.  I do think it has to happen in order for this team to get back in championship contention.

I agree, I've never really seen that in Horford.  But there are different ways to lead.   

I see Horford being more the type to sit down next to Tatum in the locker room and tell him a story.  Give him some friendly advice on little things he used to do to prepare for games.  Steps he used to take to prepare for opponents.  Things he would do to help him deal with pressures, press drama, etc. 

I see Horford more as the "village elder" type figure rather then the gang leader who will chew you out for not being in the right position on D. I expect that just having him around will help keep the guys grounded, as they seemed much more grounded in past seasons when Horford was there.  I may be wrong, that's just what I suspect.

Re: Do the Celtics have a team leader problem?
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2021, 09:52:35 AM »

Offline Rosco917

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I'm still enamored with the success of the Phenix Suns.

From NBA embarrassments to a potential finals appearance because the brought in a veteran team leader that demonstrated how to play winning basketball. This, with basically the same team as last year. Even with him not on the floor...they exhibit his style of play.

This new age baloney about not needing leadership is a sure-fire avenue to mediocrity. It doesn't take "a village" it takes chemistry, leadership and talent. 

Re: Do the Celtics have a team leader problem?
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2021, 10:01:54 AM »

Offline td450

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Leader? Isn’t that what they brought big Al in for?
Cedric Maxwell does not think so.  In his podcast the other day he said that Al is respected, but he's not one to get in people's face and call them out if they're not engaged. Max said he didn't do it when he was here before and won't do it now.

I think the team leader needs to be either or both of the Jay's so they're not likely to have a leader until one of them emerges and decides to do it. Neither may have it in him.  But only time will tell.  I do think it has to happen in order for this team to get back in championship contention.

I agree, I've never really seen that in Horford.  But there are different ways to lead.   

I see Horford being more the type to sit down next to Tatum in the locker room and tell him a story.  Give him some friendly advice on little things he used to do to prepare for games.  Steps he used to take to prepare for opponents.  Things he would do to help him deal with pressures, press drama, etc. 

I see Horford more as the "village elder" type figure rather then the gang leader who will chew you out for not being in the right position on D. I expect that just having him around will help keep the guys grounded, as they seemed much more grounded in past seasons when Horford was there.  I may be wrong, that's just what I suspect.

To me, the adult way of approaching this is for the coach to decide on corrective decisions, and the star players to visibly support letting them do that. Think of it as the Duncan/Popovich approach.

I think our two stars are capable of this. Having players going around enforcing behaviors is not the best solution.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 10:07:58 AM by td450 »

Re: Do the Celtics have a team leader problem?
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2021, 10:27:37 AM »

Offline td450

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I'm still enamored with the success of the Phenix Suns.

From NBA embarrassments to a potential finals appearance because the brought in a veteran team leader that demonstrated how to play winning basketball. This, with basically the same team as last year. Even with him not on the floor...they exhibit his style of play.

This new age baloney about not needing leadership is a sure-fire avenue to mediocrity. It doesn't take "a village" it takes chemistry, leadership and talent.

They brought in James Jones and Monty Williams.

Williams is a top tier coach. Jones got Chris Paul for a late first, Kelly Oubre and Ricky Rubio. None of those assets were of any significant use to the Suns going forward, and instead they got a 2nd team all-NBA player.

Mikal Bridges and DeAndre Ayton made major leaps. Jones made a number of other lesser decisions that resulted in some real depth, and off they went.

Chris Paul's leadership was nice, but Paul the player mattered much more because it was a rare trade that gave nothing and got back a major star.

This was mostly Jones making a handful of really concise improvements, and Monty Williams taking it from there. Hopefully we can do the same.


Re: Do the Celtics have a team leader problem?
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2021, 11:53:29 AM »

Offline Who

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So anyway.

I reckon needing a "leader" is overrated.

I think every single person on this squad brings their own upside. Their own part of that leadership.

Let Marcus lead in defence, hustle.

Let Jayson lead in scoring, putting the team on his back.

Let Jaylen lead in off-the-court stuff, maybe also in talking to refs since he seems very composed.

Let [open position] lead in being the enforcer on the court.

Seriously. Time to think different.

No ship without a captain..listen to cornbread’s latest interview on the subject.

Which interview is this? Can you link to it please?

It sounds interesting.