The Chris Paul Effect

[Who]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned that is pretty annoying is the Jae Crowder effect. I have to give the guy credit. There really was no place for him here with Hayward on board, but now that he's gone I wish we still had him.

He's pulling this off because what we are missing is pretty common throughout the league.

Elite defense at the point
Elite playmaking
Elite pressure decision making

And, he provides an excellent 3rd scoring option

His numbers were not crazy this year, and Phoenix had some other players develop, but this is amazing. Part of it is that the difference between winning and losing isn't that big any more for a lot of teams. There is a ton of talent in the NBA. One really clever glue player can make quite a difference.

I saw some Miami Heat fans commenting / complaining about the loss of Jae Crowder from last year's team. How valuable / reliable Crowder was as a 3&D guy. That he was more valuable than Iggy and how Crowder is the one that should have been paid because of Iggy's dodgy outside shooting. And that Crowder is of course better than Ariza who was starting for them in the playoffs.

I also thought they were missing Olynyk and Meyers Leonard. Skilled size. Big bodies who can hit perimeter shots.

But I thought Crowder, yeah, they are on the right track there. He did a lot of little things as a two-way (3&D) combo forward that this year's Miami team is missing. He was a loss to their rotation. And it's interesting to see him provide the exact same stuff for Phoenix - another team that is doing very well in the playoffs in part because of Crowder's play as a key glue guy for them.

[Who]

At the start of the payoffs, there was a lot of talk about whose legacy would be most helped by a championship and people were talking about Lebron, Giannis, Durant, Harden... Not many people were mentioning Chris Paul. But if the Suns win it all this year with Chris Paul leading the way, his legacy is completely different than it was a year ago.

Is it though?  I mean he is generally regarded as a top 5/6 PG all time (Magic, Oscar, Stockton, Curry, Kidd) and I don't think a title really changes his positioning on the list at all.

There is still a sizeable chunk of people (myself included) who leave CP3 out of the top 5 because of his lack of playoff success. Winning a Championship now as the best or 2nd best player on his team would go a long way to eliminating those who doubt his playoff credentials.

I reckon that would take CP3 from being on most to almost all top 5-6 PG ATG lists which is a big difference. Maybe even the clear choice behind Magic, Oscar and Steph.

[Big333223]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned that is pretty annoying is the Jae Crowder effect. I have to give the guy credit. There really was no place for him here with Hayward on board, but now that he's gone I wish we still had him.

He's pulling this off because what we are missing is pretty common throughout the league.

Elite defense at the point
Elite playmaking
Elite pressure decision making

And, he provides an excellent 3rd scoring option

His numbers were not crazy this year, and Phoenix had some other players develop, but this is amazing. Part of it is that the difference between winning and losing isn't that big any more for a lot of teams. There is a ton of talent in the NBA. One really clever glue player can make quite a difference.

This is for you:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/10/sports/basketball/jae-crowder-suns-nuggets.html

[gouki88]

At the start of the payoffs, there was a lot of talk about whose legacy would be most helped by a championship and people were talking about Lebron, Giannis, Durant, Harden... Not many people were mentioning Chris Paul. But if the Suns win it all this year with Chris Paul leading the way, his legacy is completely different than it was a year ago.

Is it though?  I mean he is generally regarded as a top 5/6 PG all time (Magic, Oscar, Stockton, Curry, Kidd) and I don't think a title really changes his positioning on the list at all.

I think a ring would be a big point of difference for many in the Stockton v CP3 debate

[Goldstar88]

Could have been the C’s...Maybe not this year due to the Jaylen injury, but a  CP3, Smart, Jaylen, Tatum, Timelord and few improvements on the bench... That’s a contender for sure.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I've long criticized Paul for not being able to lead a team to the promised land, always falling short. If the Suns win the title (with Paul playing, of course, instead of missing time with injury), then I'll change my tune about him.

[Kernewek]

At the start of the payoffs, there was a lot of talk about whose legacy would be most helped by a championship and people were talking about Lebron, Giannis, Durant, Harden... Not many people were mentioning Chris Paul. But if the Suns win it all this year with Chris Paul leading the way, his legacy is completely different than it was a year ago.

Is it though?  I mean he is generally regarded as a top 5/6 PG all time (Magic, Oscar, Stockton, Curry, Kidd) and I don't think a title really changes his positioning on the list at all.

There is still a sizeable chunk of people (myself included) who leave CP3 out of the top 5 because of his lack of playoff success. Winning a Championship now as the best or 2nd best player on his team would go a long way to eliminating those who doubt his playoff credentials.

I reckon that would take CP3 from being on most to almost all top 5-6 PG ATG lists which is a big difference. Maybe even the clear choice behind Magic, Oscar and Steph.

Is it weird that I would still say Chris Paul is a better point guard than Steph even if the resume doesn't support it?

Not to diminish Curry's absolutely brilliant play.

[terra haute]

At the start of the payoffs, there was a lot of talk about whose legacy would be most helped by a championship and people were talking about Lebron, Giannis, Durant, Harden... Not many people were mentioning Chris Paul. But if the Suns win it all this year with Chris Paul leading the way, his legacy is completely different than it was a year ago.

Is it though?  I mean he is generally regarded as a top 5/6 PG all time (Magic, Oscar, Stockton, Curry, Kidd) and I don't think a title really changes his positioning on the list at all.

I think a ring would be a big point of difference for many in the Stockton v CP3 debate

It shouldn't I like CP3 besides the obverse flopping but Stockton is so far ahead in steals and guarantee CP3 and the Suns aren't winning it this year vs the Jordan Bulls Stock went up against.A lot of Stocks problem is being too quiet and showing up at the games in a minivan full of his kids. Ask Gary Payton or Chris Webber. Payton's praise of Stock and having him induct him as like the two total opposites of demeanor.   Those Utah teams were my second favorite to Larry's Celtic teams. I don't think people realize how good Stock was, he was an assasin and granted he worked in a system that totally maximized him.

[Walker Wiggle]

This is not going to be a popular thing to say, but when I see a 36-year-old dominating in the playoffs and looking the quickest and most explosive he's looked in years, all I can think of is that something fishy is going on. The same is true of a player who tears his achilles tendon in his 30s and somehow comes back looking better than ever, or (to use an older reference) just like a football running back who rushes for 2000 yards the first year after tearing an ACL. These guys work hard and all, but I have seen too much over the past 25 years to believe these things are only a product of hard work, natural ability, and grit. Sorry to be a downer but I felt compelled to say it.

[Androslav]

Chris Paul - one of the best regular-season PGs of all time.

also

Chris Paul - the one who missed 10 years of huge deciding PO games in his prime due to injuries or played poorly while being injured.

That makes it very hard to rate him, regardless of this years result.

[Roy H.]

This is not going to be a popular thing to say, but when I see a 36-year-old dominating in the playoffs and looking the quickest and most explosive he's looked in years, all I can think of is that something fishy is going on. The same is true of a player who tears his achilles tendon in his 30s and somehow comes back looking better than ever, or (to use an older reference) just like a football running back who rushes for 2000 yards the first year after tearing an ACL. These guys work hard and all, but I have seen too much over the past 25 years to believe these things are only a product of hard work, natural ability, and grit. Sorry to be a downer but I felt compelled to say it.

Or a 43 year old QB looking like he’s in his prime?

[Moranis]

At the start of the payoffs, there was a lot of talk about whose legacy would be most helped by a championship and people were talking about Lebron, Giannis, Durant, Harden... Not many people were mentioning Chris Paul. But if the Suns win it all this year with Chris Paul leading the way, his legacy is completely different than it was a year ago.

Is it though?  I mean he is generally regarded as a top 5/6 PG all time (Magic, Oscar, Stockton, Curry, Kidd) and I don't think a title really changes his positioning on the list at all.

I think a ring would be a big point of difference for many in the Stockton v CP3 debate

It shouldn't I like CP3 besides the obverse flopping but Stockton is so far ahead in steals and guarantee CP3 and the Suns aren't winning it this year vs the Jordan Bulls Stock went up against.A lot of Stocks problem is being too quiet and showing up at the games in a minivan full of his kids. Ask Gary Payton or Chris Webber. Payton's praise of Stock and having him induct him as like the two total opposites of demeanor.   Those Utah teams were my second favorite to Larry's Celtic teams. I don't think people realize how good Stock was, he was an assasin and granted he worked in a system that totally maximized him.

This is where I'm at as well.  I will say Chris Paul was tremendous last night, but I don't think many believe they are beating a healthy Lakers or Clippers team.  If they do end up winning it still counts as a title, but not all titles are created equal either. 

I had Paul 5th all time entering the playoffs, and he will be 5th all time when the playoffs end (and would have been there had they lost to the Lakers in the 1st round).  I have Magic, Oscar, Steph, Stockton, Paul, Thomas, Kidd, and Payton as my top 8 (no one else is all that close, sorry Cousy).  Zeke would be higher had he managed to play longer, but that injury in 91 really shrunk the back end of his career and took away a lot of his effectiveness.

[Walker Wiggle]

This is not going to be a popular thing to say, but when I see a 36-year-old dominating in the playoffs and looking the quickest and most explosive he's looked in years, all I can think of is that something fishy is going on. The same is true of a player who tears his achilles tendon in his 30s and somehow comes back looking better than ever, or (to use an older reference) just like a football running back who rushes for 2000 yards the first year after tearing an ACL. These guys work hard and all, but I have seen too much over the past 25 years to believe these things are only a product of hard work, natural ability, and grit. Sorry to be a downer but I felt compelled to say it.

Or a 43 year old QB looking like he’s in his prime?

Everything is in bounds, yes. That includes our guys. But if you think Brady is in his physical prime right now, I'd encourage you to watch some tape from the 2007 season and reconsider.

[Rosco917]

It's more than Chris Paul magically walking on the floor and bring the Sun's to the promised land.

That Sun's team gave themselves to him and his style of basketball. He convinced them... and then trained them to play a certain style of basketball. Because the years before CP3 that team was mostly ineffective.

The question should be, could the ISO crazy young Celtics be persuaded to follow a script of ball movement, team first basketball? It may take a few points off individual scoring averages and lose certain players endorsements. I'm not so sure this team would tolerate that. 

   

[BruceBanner18]

At the start of the payoffs, there was a lot of talk about whose legacy would be most helped by a championship and people were talking about Lebron, Giannis, Durant, Harden... Not many people were mentioning Chris Paul. But if the Suns win it all this year with Chris Paul leading the way, his legacy is completely different than it was a year ago.

Is it though?  I mean he is generally regarded as a top 5/6 PG all time (Magic, Oscar, Stockton, Curry, Kidd) and I don't think a title really changes his positioning on the list at all.

I think a ring would be a big point of difference for many in the Stockton v CP3 debate

It shouldn't I like CP3 besides the obverse flopping but Stockton is so far ahead in steals and guarantee CP3 and the Suns aren't winning it this year vs the Jordan Bulls Stock went up against.A lot of Stocks problem is being too quiet and showing up at the games in a minivan full of his kids. Ask Gary Payton or Chris Webber. Payton's praise of Stock and having him induct him as like the two total opposites of demeanor.   Those Utah teams were my second favorite to Larry's Celtic teams. I don't think people realize how good Stock was, he was an assasin and granted he worked in a system that totally maximized him.

This is where I'm at as well.  I will say Chris Paul was tremendous last night, but I don't think many believe they are beating a healthy Lakers or Clippers team.  If they do end up winning it still counts as a title, but not all titles are created equal either. 

I had Paul 5th all time entering the playoffs, and he will be 5th all time when the playoffs end (and would have been there had they lost to the Lakers in the 1st round).  I have Magic, Oscar, Steph, Stockton, Paul, Thomas, Kidd, and Payton as my top 8 (no one else is all that close, sorry Cousy).  Zeke would be higher had he managed to play longer, but that injury in 91 really shrunk the back end of his career and took away a lot of his effectiveness.

No Steve Nash? I personally would put Nash and Iverson above kidd and Payton