CelticsStrong
Around the League => The Draft => Topic started by: Tr1boy on April 01, 2018, 11:28:17 AM
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Currently ranked outside of the 1st round. Mainly due to age (Junior), average wingspan and OK regular season production. But having a stellar NCAA march madness run. Has helped his team reach the championship vs Villanova.
Showing up for the March Madness helps, but I think he would be a excellent fit under CBS system. Mobile, can shoot the 3, can pass, has good IQ, good motor. Strong body but needs to improve on rebounding consistency. Not much of a shot blocker.
Highlight from final four game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTN21xV27cY
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Currently ranked outside of the 1st round. Mainly due to age (Junior), average wingspan and OK regular season production.
Think about what you wrote and then add the fact that he's a below average rebounder and isn't a rim protector.
Every year you fall for players based on a few tournament games.
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Currently ranked outside of the 1st round. Mainly due to age (Junior), average wingspan and OK regular season production.
Think about what you wrote and then add the fact that he's a below average rebounder and isn't a rim protector.
Every year you fall for players based on a few tournament games.
list me the players I have..
What about you? you fall in love with players like Cliff Alexandre, Dragan Bender... lol
At the late 20s spot, you can't find an all around optimal prospect. Why don't you digest on that ...
At the end of the day even with some shortcomings, Moritz is a 6'11 big body that can fit under CBS. Would be a better fit than Yabusele for example
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Currently ranked outside of the 1st round. Mainly due to age (Junior), average wingspan and OK regular season production.
Think about what you wrote and then add the fact that he's a below average rebounder and isn't a rim protector.
Every year you fall for players based on a few tournament games.
list me the players I have..
What about you? you fall in love with players like Cliff Alexandre, Dragan Bender... lol
At the late 20s spot, you can't find an all around optimal prospect. Why don't you digest on that ...
At the end of the day even with some shortcomings, Moritz is a 6'11 big body that can fit under CBS. Would be a better fit than Yabusele for example
You constantly overrate college level competition, which is why you miss the boat on how their games will translate. It's why you fell in love with Mickey, and thought guys like Kaminsky and Sabonis would dominate at the next level. Yabusele would dominate D1 level competition and completely eat up Wagner.
I'd actually like us to take Bruce Brown (local kid who is a very athletic player, but had an injury plagued year) or Diallo (lower floor than Brown, but another great athlete with insane length). At #27 in the draft, I'd like us to swing for the fences with some high upside guys. Wagner is low ceiling player that at very best will be a journeyman big stuck at the end of a roster.
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Currently ranked outside of the 1st round. Mainly due to age (Junior), average wingspan and OK regular season production.
Think about what you wrote and then add the fact that he's a below average rebounder and isn't a rim protector.
Every year you fall for players based on a few tournament games.
list me the players I have..
What about you? you fall in love with players like Cliff Alexandre, Dragan Bender... lol
At the late 20s spot, you can't find an all around optimal prospect. Why don't you digest on that ...
At the end of the day even with some shortcomings, Moritz is a 6'11 big body that can fit under CBS. Would be a better fit than Yabusele for example
You constantly overrate college level competition, which is why you miss the boat on how their games will translate. It's why you fell in love with Mickey, and thought guys like Kaminsky and Sabonis would dominate at the next level. Yabusele would dominate D1 level competition and completely eat up Wagner.
I'd actually like us to take Bruce Brown (local kid who is a very athletic player, but had an injury plagued year) or Diallo (lower floor than Brown, but another great athlete with insane length). At #27 in the draft, I'd like us to swing for the fences with some high upside guys. Wagner is low ceiling player that at very best will be a journeyman big stuck at the end of a roster.
its the same deal with you
high upside nonsense...
how many HIGH upside prospects at late 20s or in the 2nd round have become anything but a D leaguer?
1 out of 60 maybe become something
Its the Malcom Brogdons of the worlds who are the good picks around this range. IF the Celts had a 1st to burn or something...ok fine, take a chance. But this is their only 1st this season
Moritz is the kind of prospect that fits the bill. Even Grayson Allen would be better choice than Diallo
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I don’t think Eddie20 knows who Moritz Wagner is. If you did, you wouldn’t argue that his game won’t translate to the NBA. Quite the opposite actually, as his shooting and playmaking at 6’11’’ is built perfectly for the modern NBA. It’s also ridiculous to call him a “low ceiling player”. He has gotten better every year since he came to America when he was 18, and he still is improving. He went from coming off the bench to being the focal point of championship team. And it’s crazy to think that Yabu would “completely eat up Wagner”. Yabu has done nothing so far, college or NBA. We have him for his potential, not for how good he is right now.
TP Triboy. I’m a big Wagner fan, and he’s the reason I picked Michigan to win it all (over Villanova as well). He’s very well rounded and extremely versatile. If we could get him late 1st/early 2nd, it would be a great pick.
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Double post. Celticsblog has had some real connection issues lately.
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If The Celtics could pick up an early 2nd round pick i could see Danny using it on Wagner.
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I don’t think Eddie20 knows who Moritz Wagner is. If you did, you wouldn’t argue that his game won’t translate to the NBA. Quite the opposite actually, as his shooting and playmaking at 6’11’’ is built perfectly for the modern NBA. It’s also ridiculous to call him a “low ceiling player”. He has gotten better every year since he came to America when he was 18, and he still is improving. He went from coming off the bench to being the focal point of championship team. And it’s crazy to think that Yabu would “completely eat up Wagner”. Yabu has done nothing so far, college or NBA. We have him for his potential, not for how good he is right now.
TP Triboy. I’m a big Wagner fan, and he’s the reason I picked Michigan to win it all (over Villanova as well). He’s very well rounded and extremely versatile. If we could get him late 1st/early 2nd, it would be a great pick.
Wagner tried to come out last year, but after the combine the consensus from teams was that he should go back to school. That's not a real good sign.
He can shoot, yeah, but he has really bad feet. I'm not sure what position he's going to defend at the NBA level. This guy screams Pittsnogle to me. Good college player, good shooter, but not good enough for the NBA. Again, he has a really low ceiling. Best case scenario is probably a journeyman type.
Yabu, who has more potential, is also a better player than Wagner right now. He would feast on collegiate athletes.
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I don’t think Eddie20 knows who Moritz Wagner is. If you did, you wouldn’t argue that his game won’t translate to the NBA. Quite the opposite actually, as his shooting and playmaking at 6’11’’ is built perfectly for the modern NBA. It’s also ridiculous to call him a “low ceiling player”. He has gotten better every year since he came to America when he was 18, and he still is improving. He went from coming off the bench to being the focal point of championship team. And it’s crazy to think that Yabu would “completely eat up Wagner”. Yabu has done nothing so far, college or NBA. We have him for his potential, not for how good he is right now.
TP Triboy. I’m a big Wagner fan, and he’s the reason I picked Michigan to win it all (over Villanova as well). He’s very well rounded and extremely versatile. If we could get him late 1st/early 2nd, it would be a great pick.
Wagner tried to come out last year, but after the combine the consensus from teams was that he should go back to school. That's not a real good sign.
He can shoot, yeah, but he has really bad feet. I'm not sure what position he's going to defend at the NBA level. This guy screams Pittsnogle to me. Good college player, good shooter, but not good enough for the NBA. Again, he has a really low ceiling. Best case scenario is probably a journeyman type.
Yabu, who has more potential, is also a better player than Wagner right now. He would feast on collegiate athletes.
No, he’s really not. And you have no evidence or stats that would suggest otherwise. The only league Yabu has played enough minutes in for us to judge him was in China. There is no reason to suggest that he would be able to lead a team to the National Championship or dominate in college.
And you’re just wrong about Wagner. Even if you don’t think he’ll end up being good, it’s ridiculous to say that his absolute best case scenario is a journeyman. When someone who is 6’11’’, plays solid defense, and his shooting and playmaking abilities hits their ceiling, they aren’t a journeyman type player. That just doesn’t make any sense.
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I don’t think Eddie20 knows who Moritz Wagner is. If you did, you wouldn’t argue that his game won’t translate to the NBA. Quite the opposite actually, as his shooting and playmaking at 6’11’’ is built perfectly for the modern NBA. It’s also ridiculous to call him a “low ceiling player”. He has gotten better every year since he came to America when he was 18, and he still is improving. He went from coming off the bench to being the focal point of championship team. And it’s crazy to think that Yabu would “completely eat up Wagner”. Yabu has done nothing so far, college or NBA. We have him for his potential, not for how good he is right now.
TP Triboy. I’m a big Wagner fan, and he’s the reason I picked Michigan to win it all (over Villanova as well). He’s very well rounded and extremely versatile. If we could get him late 1st/early 2nd, it would be a great pick.
Wagner tried to come out last year, but after the combine the consensus from teams was that he should go back to school. That's not a real good sign.
He can shoot, yeah, but he has really bad feet. I'm not sure what position he's going to defend at the NBA level. This guy screams Pittsnogle to me. Good college player, good shooter, but not good enough for the NBA. Again, he has a really low ceiling. Best case scenario is probably a journeyman type.
Yabu, who has more potential, is also a better player than Wagner right now. He would feast on collegiate athletes.
No, he’s really not. And you have no evidence or stats that would suggest otherwise. The only league Yabu has played enough minutes in for us to judge him was in China. There is no reason to suggest that he would be able to lead a team to the National Championship or dominate in college.
And you’re just wrong about Wagner. Even if you don’t think he’ll end up being good, it’s ridiculous to say that his absolute best case scenario is a journeyman. When someone who is 6’11’’, plays solid defense, and his shooting and playmaking abilities hits their ceiling, they aren’t a journeyman type player. That just doesn’t make any sense.
We might not be talking about the same player. Because the guy that I'm talking about is not a playmaker (averages 0.8 apg in 27.5 mpg) and is a bad defender. Is the guy you're referring going to be able to defend the PNR and switch onto smaller players, you know, things that are key in Stevens D?
In all seriousness, being a journeymen isn't a slight on the guy. It's tough to make it. College success means little in having success at the NBA level. Players more talent and with more greater collegiate accolades have failed. I just don't see any upside in the guy, so why waste a roster spot on a player who's not really going to help you much now or in the future?
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I don’t think Eddie20 knows who Moritz Wagner is. If you did, you wouldn’t argue that his game won’t translate to the NBA. Quite the opposite actually, as his shooting and playmaking at 6’11’’ is built perfectly for the modern NBA. It’s also ridiculous to call him a “low ceiling player”. He has gotten better every year since he came to America when he was 18, and he still is improving. He went from coming off the bench to being the focal point of championship team. And it’s crazy to think that Yabu would “completely eat up Wagner”. Yabu has done nothing so far, college or NBA. We have him for his potential, not for how good he is right now.
TP Triboy. I’m a big Wagner fan, and he’s the reason I picked Michigan to win it all (over Villanova as well). He’s very well rounded and extremely versatile. If we could get him late 1st/early 2nd, it would be a great pick.
Wagner tried to come out last year, but after the combine the consensus from teams was that he should go back to school. That's not a real good sign.
He can shoot, yeah, but he has really bad feet. I'm not sure what position he's going to defend at the NBA level. This guy screams Pittsnogle to me. Good college player, good shooter, but not good enough for the NBA. Again, he has a really low ceiling. Best case scenario is probably a journeyman type.
Yabu, who has more potential, is also a better player than Wagner right now. He would feast on collegiate athletes.
No, he’s really not. And you have no evidence or stats that would suggest otherwise. The only league Yabu has played enough minutes in for us to judge him was in China. There is no reason to suggest that he would be able to lead a team to the National Championship or dominate in college.
And you’re just wrong about Wagner. Even if you don’t think he’ll end up being good, it’s ridiculous to say that his absolute best case scenario is a journeyman. When someone who is 6’11’’, plays solid defense, and his shooting and playmaking abilities hits their ceiling, they aren’t a journeyman type player. That just doesn’t make any sense.
We might not be talking about the same player. Because the guy that I'm talking about is not a playmaker (averages 0.8 apg in 27.5 mpg) and is a bad defender. Is the guy you're referring going to be able to defend the PNR and switch onto smaller players, you know, things that are key in Stevens D?
In all seriousness, being a journeymen isn't a slight on the guy. It's tough to make it. College success means little in having success at the NBA level. Players more talent and with more greater collegiate accolades have failed. I just don't see any upside in the guy, so why waste a roster spot on a player who's not really going to help you much now or in the future?
That’s what I was saying. It’s good to see you admit you were talking about the wrong guy. It’s ok, just try to double check before you post next time.
Anyway, Moritz Wagner does have good playmaking skills. He handles the ball well for a big man, attack closeouts well, can post up, as well as pass out of double teams well. Not sure what that has to do with his assist numbers. And he’s a very solid defender. He doesn’t protect the rim, but he defends well in space for a guy his size. He’s also a good post defender and has good instincts, he averages a steal a game. Him playing the 5 in Michigan’s defense allows them to hedge pick and rolls hard, which is a big reason why they are 13th in defensive efficiency in the nation.
So I think he’s well worth a late 1st/early 2nd. And a journeyman is someone like Ersan Ilyasova or Trevor Booker. If you want to say that's his floor, I would be ok with that. But to say it's his ceiling just doesn't make sense, it's like you don't know what ceiling means. Maybe go do some research, and come back when you know a little more about him.
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I don’t think Eddie20 knows who Moritz Wagner is. If you did, you wouldn’t argue that his game won’t translate to the NBA. Quite the opposite actually, as his shooting and playmaking at 6’11’’ is built perfectly for the modern NBA. It’s also ridiculous to call him a “low ceiling player”. He has gotten better every year since he came to America when he was 18, and he still is improving. He went from coming off the bench to being the focal point of championship team. And it’s crazy to think that Yabu would “completely eat up Wagner”. Yabu has done nothing so far, college or NBA. We have him for his potential, not for how good he is right now.
TP Triboy. I’m a big Wagner fan, and he’s the reason I picked Michigan to win it all (over Villanova as well). He’s very well rounded and extremely versatile. If we could get him late 1st/early 2nd, it would be a great pick.
Wagner tried to come out last year, but after the combine the consensus from teams was that he should go back to school. That's not a real good sign.
He can shoot, yeah, but he has really bad feet. I'm not sure what position he's going to defend at the NBA level. This guy screams Pittsnogle to me. Good college player, good shooter, but not good enough for the NBA. Again, he has a really low ceiling. Best case scenario is probably a journeyman type.
Yabu, who has more potential, is also a better player than Wagner right now. He would feast on collegiate athletes.
No, he’s really not. And you have no evidence or stats that would suggest otherwise. The only league Yabu has played enough minutes in for us to judge him was in China. There is no reason to suggest that he would be able to lead a team to the National Championship or dominate in college.
And you’re just wrong about Wagner. Even if you don’t think he’ll end up being good, it’s ridiculous to say that his absolute best case scenario is a journeyman. When someone who is 6’11’’, plays solid defense, and his shooting and playmaking abilities hits their ceiling, they aren’t a journeyman type player. That just doesn’t make any sense.
We might not be talking about the same player. Because the guy that I'm talking about is not a playmaker (averages 0.8 apg in 27.5 mpg) and is a bad defender. Is the guy you're referring going to be able to defend the PNR and switch onto smaller players, you know, things that are key in Stevens D?
In all seriousness, being a journeymen isn't a slight on the guy. It's tough to make it. College success means little in having success at the NBA level. Players more talent and with more greater collegiate accolades have failed. I just don't see any upside in the guy, so why waste a roster spot on a player who's not really going to help you much now or in the future?
That’s what I was saying. It’s good to see you admit you were talking about the wrong guy. It’s ok, just try to double check before you post next time.
Anyway, Moritz Wagner does have good playmaking skills. He handles the ball well for a big man, attack closeouts well, can post up, as well as pass out of double teams well. Not sure what that has to do with his assist numbers. And he’s a very solid defender. He doesn’t protect the rim, but he defends well in space for a guy his size. He’s also a good post defender and has good instincts, he averages a steal a game. Him playing the 5 in Michigan’s defense allows them to hedge pick and rolls hard, which is a big reason why they are 13th in defensive efficiency in the nation.
So I think he’s well worth a late 1st/early 2nd. And a journeyman is someone like Ersan Ilyasova or Trevor Booker. If you want to say that's his floor, I would be ok with that. But to say it's his ceiling just doesn't make sense, it's like you don't know what ceiling means. Maybe go do some research, and come back when you know a little more about him.
Wow! So basically someone like Illyasova is his floor? What's his ceiling then? Please keep educating me on this guy because clearly he's a lot better, and moves his feet faster, than where draft sites have him. That said, since you seem the be the go to guy for all things Wagner, why is it that he went back to school after the combine? Doesn't that seem odd? Can you name another example where a player went to the combine, went back to school due to some mysterious reason (lack of talent perhaps), and carved out a solid, non journeyman type career? Thanks.
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I don’t think Eddie20 knows who Moritz Wagner is. If you did, you wouldn’t argue that his game won’t translate to the NBA. Quite the opposite actually, as his shooting and playmaking at 6’11’’ is built perfectly for the modern NBA. It’s also ridiculous to call him a “low ceiling player”. He has gotten better every year since he came to America when he was 18, and he still is improving. He went from coming off the bench to being the focal point of championship team. And it’s crazy to think that Yabu would “completely eat up Wagner”. Yabu has done nothing so far, college or NBA. We have him for his potential, not for how good he is right now.
TP Triboy. I’m a big Wagner fan, and he’s the reason I picked Michigan to win it all (over Villanova as well). He’s very well rounded and extremely versatile. If we could get him late 1st/early 2nd, it would be a great pick.
There is no point
He wants to throw darts in the dark and take Diallo
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Nice skill for a big man. Highlight from last season. But is skinny.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNkUo8g-EqY
Sweet 16 game highlight (last week). Has done a nice job filling out his body. Yes overall there is some resemblance to KO game (for the good and the bad). But is more co ordinated and more aggressive. Kind of hoping he doesn't have a great game vs Villanova. Otherwise could leapfrog into the early 20s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVWlGbYX62I
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I don’t think Eddie20 knows who Moritz Wagner is. If you did, you wouldn’t argue that his game won’t translate to the NBA. Quite the opposite actually, as his shooting and playmaking at 6’11’’ is built perfectly for the modern NBA. It’s also ridiculous to call him a “low ceiling player”. He has gotten better every year since he came to America when he was 18, and he still is improving. He went from coming off the bench to being the focal point of championship team. And it’s crazy to think that Yabu would “completely eat up Wagner”. Yabu has done nothing so far, college or NBA. We have him for his potential, not for how good he is right now.
TP Triboy. I’m a big Wagner fan, and he’s the reason I picked Michigan to win it all (over Villanova as well). He’s very well rounded and extremely versatile. If we could get him late 1st/early 2nd, it would be a great pick.
Wagner tried to come out last year, but after the combine the consensus from teams was that he should go back to school. That's not a real good sign.
He can shoot, yeah, but he has really bad feet. I'm not sure what position he's going to defend at the NBA level. This guy screams Pittsnogle to me. Good college player, good shooter, but not good enough for the NBA. Again, he has a really low ceiling. Best case scenario is probably a journeyman type.
Yabu, who has more potential, is also a better player than Wagner right now. He would feast on collegiate athletes.
No, he’s really not. And you have no evidence or stats that would suggest otherwise. The only league Yabu has played enough minutes in for us to judge him was in China. There is no reason to suggest that he would be able to lead a team to the National Championship or dominate in college.
And you’re just wrong about Wagner. Even if you don’t think he’ll end up being good, it’s ridiculous to say that his absolute best case scenario is a journeyman. When someone who is 6’11’’, plays solid defense, and his shooting and playmaking abilities hits their ceiling, they aren’t a journeyman type player. That just doesn’t make any sense.
We might not be talking about the same player. Because the guy that I'm talking about is not a playmaker (averages 0.8 apg in 27.5 mpg) and is a bad defender. Is the guy you're referring going to be able to defend the PNR and switch onto smaller players, you know, things that are key in Stevens D?
In all seriousness, being a journeymen isn't a slight on the guy. It's tough to make it. College success means little in having success at the NBA level. Players more talent and with more greater collegiate accolades have failed. I just don't see any upside in the guy, so why waste a roster spot on a player who's not really going to help you much now or in the future?
That’s what I was saying. It’s good to see you admit you were talking about the wrong guy. It’s ok, just try to double check before you post next time.
Anyway, Moritz Wagner does have good playmaking skills. He handles the ball well for a big man, attack closeouts well, can post up, as well as pass out of double teams well. Not sure what that has to do with his assist numbers. And he’s a very solid defender. He doesn’t protect the rim, but he defends well in space for a guy his size. He’s also a good post defender and has good instincts, he averages a steal a game. Him playing the 5 in Michigan’s defense allows them to hedge pick and rolls hard, which is a big reason why they are 13th in defensive efficiency in the nation.
So I think he’s well worth a late 1st/early 2nd. And a journeyman is someone like Ersan Ilyasova or Trevor Booker. If you want to say that's his floor, I would be ok with that. But to say it's his ceiling just doesn't make sense, it's like you don't know what ceiling means. Maybe go do some research, and come back when you know a little more about him.
Wow! So basically someone like Illyasova is his floor? What's his ceiling then? Please keep educating me on this guy because clearly he's a lot better, and moves his feet faster, than where draft sites have him. That said, since you seem the be the go to guy for all things Wagner, why is it that he went back to school after the combine? Doesn't that seem odd? Can you name another example where a player went to the combine, went back to school due to some mysterious reason (lack of talent perhaps), and carved out a solid, non journeyman type career? Thanks.
I don't have to, given that a new NCAA rule created in 2016 gave prospects the chance to return to school until May 25th, which is AFTER the combine. Previously you had to decide by April 16th, which is BEFORE the combine. So now anyone who is even considering declaring for the draft can go to the combine, and still choose to return to school.
You really should do some research on topics before you go and get into an argument about them. That's twice you've ended up looking silly.
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I don’t think Eddie20 knows who Moritz Wagner is. If you did, you wouldn’t argue that his game won’t translate to the NBA. Quite the opposite actually, as his shooting and playmaking at 6’11’’ is built perfectly for the modern NBA. It’s also ridiculous to call him a “low ceiling player”. He has gotten better every year since he came to America when he was 18, and he still is improving. He went from coming off the bench to being the focal point of championship team. And it’s crazy to think that Yabu would “completely eat up Wagner”. Yabu has done nothing so far, college or NBA. We have him for his potential, not for how good he is right now.
TP Triboy. I’m a big Wagner fan, and he’s the reason I picked Michigan to win it all (over Villanova as well). He’s very well rounded and extremely versatile. If we could get him late 1st/early 2nd, it would be a great pick.
Wagner tried to come out last year, but after the combine the consensus from teams was that he should go back to school. That's not a real good sign.
He can shoot, yeah, but he has really bad feet. I'm not sure what position he's going to defend at the NBA level. This guy screams Pittsnogle to me. Good college player, good shooter, but not good enough for the NBA. Again, he has a really low ceiling. Best case scenario is probably a journeyman type.
Yabu, who has more potential, is also a better player than Wagner right now. He would feast on collegiate athletes.
No, he’s really not. And you have no evidence or stats that would suggest otherwise. The only league Yabu has played enough minutes in for us to judge him was in China. There is no reason to suggest that he would be able to lead a team to the National Championship or dominate in college.
And you’re just wrong about Wagner. Even if you don’t think he’ll end up being good, it’s ridiculous to say that his absolute best case scenario is a journeyman. When someone who is 6’11’’, plays solid defense, and his shooting and playmaking abilities hits their ceiling, they aren’t a journeyman type player. That just doesn’t make any sense.
We might not be talking about the same player. Because the guy that I'm talking about is not a playmaker (averages 0.8 apg in 27.5 mpg) and is a bad defender. Is the guy you're referring going to be able to defend the PNR and switch onto smaller players, you know, things that are key in Stevens D?
In all seriousness, being a journeymen isn't a slight on the guy. It's tough to make it. College success means little in having success at the NBA level. Players more talent and with more greater collegiate accolades have failed. I just don't see any upside in the guy, so why waste a roster spot on a player who's not really going to help you much now or in the future?
That’s what I was saying. It’s good to see you admit you were talking about the wrong guy. It’s ok, just try to double check before you post next time.
Anyway, Moritz Wagner does have good playmaking skills. He handles the ball well for a big man, attack closeouts well, can post up, as well as pass out of double teams well. Not sure what that has to do with his assist numbers. And he’s a very solid defender. He doesn’t protect the rim, but he defends well in space for a guy his size. He’s also a good post defender and has good instincts, he averages a steal a game. Him playing the 5 in Michigan’s defense allows them to hedge pick and rolls hard, which is a big reason why they are 13th in defensive efficiency in the nation.
So I think he’s well worth a late 1st/early 2nd. And a journeyman is someone like Ersan Ilyasova or Trevor Booker. If you want to say that's his floor, I would be ok with that. But to say it's his ceiling just doesn't make sense, it's like you don't know what ceiling means. Maybe go do some research, and come back when you know a little more about him.
Wow! So basically someone like Illyasova is his floor? What's his ceiling then? Please keep educating me on this guy because clearly he's a lot better, and moves his feet faster, than where draft sites have him. That said, since you seem the be the go to guy for all things Wagner, why is it that he went back to school after the combine? Doesn't that seem odd? Can you name another example where a player went to the combine, went back to school due to some mysterious reason (lack of talent perhaps), and carved out a solid, non journeyman type career? Thanks.
I don't have to, given that a new NCAA rule created in 2016 gave prospects the chance to return to school until May 25th, which is AFTER the combine. Previously you had to decide by April 16th, which is BEFORE the combine. So now anyone who is even considering declaring for the draft can go to the combine, and still choose to return to school.
You really should do some research on topics before you go and get into an argument about them. That's twice you've ended up looking silly.
yes... and the guy he wouldn't mind taking a risk on (Diallo) ...did the exact same thing
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I don’t think Eddie20 knows who Moritz Wagner is. If you did, you wouldn’t argue that his game won’t translate to the NBA. Quite the opposite actually, as his shooting and playmaking at 6’11’’ is built perfectly for the modern NBA. It’s also ridiculous to call him a “low ceiling player”. He has gotten better every year since he came to America when he was 18, and he still is improving. He went from coming off the bench to being the focal point of championship team. And it’s crazy to think that Yabu would “completely eat up Wagner”. Yabu has done nothing so far, college or NBA. We have him for his potential, not for how good he is right now.
TP Triboy. I’m a big Wagner fan, and he’s the reason I picked Michigan to win it all (over Villanova as well). He’s very well rounded and extremely versatile. If we could get him late 1st/early 2nd, it would be a great pick.
Wagner tried to come out last year, but after the combine the consensus from teams was that he should go back to school. That's not a real good sign.
He can shoot, yeah, but he has really bad feet. I'm not sure what position he's going to defend at the NBA level. This guy screams Pittsnogle to me. Good college player, good shooter, but not good enough for the NBA. Again, he has a really low ceiling. Best case scenario is probably a journeyman type.
Yabu, who has more potential, is also a better player than Wagner right now. He would feast on collegiate athletes.
No, he’s really not. And you have no evidence or stats that would suggest otherwise. The only league Yabu has played enough minutes in for us to judge him was in China. There is no reason to suggest that he would be able to lead a team to the National Championship or dominate in college.
And you’re just wrong about Wagner. Even if you don’t think he’ll end up being good, it’s ridiculous to say that his absolute best case scenario is a journeyman. When someone who is 6’11’’, plays solid defense, and his shooting and playmaking abilities hits their ceiling, they aren’t a journeyman type player. That just doesn’t make any sense.
We might not be talking about the same player. Because the guy that I'm talking about is not a playmaker (averages 0.8 apg in 27.5 mpg) and is a bad defender. Is the guy you're referring going to be able to defend the PNR and switch onto smaller players, you know, things that are key in Stevens D?
In all seriousness, being a journeymen isn't a slight on the guy. It's tough to make it. College success means little in having success at the NBA level. Players more talent and with more greater collegiate accolades have failed. I just don't see any upside in the guy, so why waste a roster spot on a player who's not really going to help you much now or in the future?
That’s what I was saying. It’s good to see you admit you were talking about the wrong guy. It’s ok, just try to double check before you post next time.
Anyway, Moritz Wagner does have good playmaking skills. He handles the ball well for a big man, attack closeouts well, can post up, as well as pass out of double teams well. Not sure what that has to do with his assist numbers. And he’s a very solid defender. He doesn’t protect the rim, but he defends well in space for a guy his size. He’s also a good post defender and has good instincts, he averages a steal a game. Him playing the 5 in Michigan’s defense allows them to hedge pick and rolls hard, which is a big reason why they are 13th in defensive efficiency in the nation.
So I think he’s well worth a late 1st/early 2nd. And a journeyman is someone like Ersan Ilyasova or Trevor Booker. If you want to say that's his floor, I would be ok with that. But to say it's his ceiling just doesn't make sense, it's like you don't know what ceiling means. Maybe go do some research, and come back when you know a little more about him.
Wow! So basically someone like Illyasova is his floor? What's his ceiling then? Please keep educating me on this guy because clearly he's a lot better, and moves his feet faster, than where draft sites have him. That said, since you seem the be the go to guy for all things Wagner, why is it that he went back to school after the combine? Doesn't that seem odd? Can you name another example where a player went to the combine, went back to school due to some mysterious reason (lack of talent perhaps), and carved out a solid, non journeyman type career? Thanks.
I don't have to, given that a new NCAA rule created in 2016 gave prospects the chance to return to school until May 25th, which is AFTER the combine. Previously you had to decide by April 16th, which is BEFORE the combine. So now anyone who is even considering declaring for the draft can go to the combine, and still choose to return to school.
You really should do some research on topics before you go and get into an argument about them. That's twice you've ended up looking silly.
yes... and the guy he wouldn't mind taking a risk on (Diallo) ...did the exact same thing
You don't see any difference in that comparison? Diallo was 18, a 5 star recruit, and hadn't played a single game in college. That said, he posted an insane vert and had nearly a 7 foot wingspan. The kid is still 19, raw as can be, and while he's risky as any prospect, there is no denying his ceiling is immense.
Buck, the rule started in 2016 and that year there were nearly 20 players that participated and returned to school. It's a great rule and it allows college players to obtain real feedback from NBA teams, as opposed to listening to false hopes from agents. Last year Wagner took advantage of that opportunity and apparently the feedback he received wasn't good. If not, he would've likely remained in the draft. To think that some 12 months later NBA teams will have a different view of him is a reach. You never answered what player you compare his ceiling to. I'm curious on how much you're actually overrating him.
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I don’t think Eddie20 knows who Moritz Wagner is. If you did, you wouldn’t argue that his game won’t translate to the NBA. Quite the opposite actually, as his shooting and playmaking at 6’11’’ is built perfectly for the modern NBA. It’s also ridiculous to call him a “low ceiling player”. He has gotten better every year since he came to America when he was 18, and he still is improving. He went from coming off the bench to being the focal point of championship team. And it’s crazy to think that Yabu would “completely eat up Wagner”. Yabu has done nothing so far, college or NBA. We have him for his potential, not for how good he is right now.
TP Triboy. I’m a big Wagner fan, and he’s the reason I picked Michigan to win it all (over Villanova as well). He’s very well rounded and extremely versatile. If we could get him late 1st/early 2nd, it would be a great pick.
Wagner tried to come out last year, but after the combine the consensus from teams was that he should go back to school. That's not a real good sign.
He can shoot, yeah, but he has really bad feet. I'm not sure what position he's going to defend at the NBA level. This guy screams Pittsnogle to me. Good college player, good shooter, but not good enough for the NBA. Again, he has a really low ceiling. Best case scenario is probably a journeyman type.
Yabu, who has more potential, is also a better player than Wagner right now. He would feast on collegiate athletes.
No, he’s really not. And you have no evidence or stats that would suggest otherwise. The only league Yabu has played enough minutes in for us to judge him was in China. There is no reason to suggest that he would be able to lead a team to the National Championship or dominate in college.
And you’re just wrong about Wagner. Even if you don’t think he’ll end up being good, it’s ridiculous to say that his absolute best case scenario is a journeyman. When someone who is 6’11’’, plays solid defense, and his shooting and playmaking abilities hits their ceiling, they aren’t a journeyman type player. That just doesn’t make any sense.
We might not be talking about the same player. Because the guy that I'm talking about is not a playmaker (averages 0.8 apg in 27.5 mpg) and is a bad defender. Is the guy you're referring going to be able to defend the PNR and switch onto smaller players, you know, things that are key in Stevens D?
In all seriousness, being a journeymen isn't a slight on the guy. It's tough to make it. College success means little in having success at the NBA level. Players more talent and with more greater collegiate accolades have failed. I just don't see any upside in the guy, so why waste a roster spot on a player who's not really going to help you much now or in the future?
That’s what I was saying. It’s good to see you admit you were talking about the wrong guy. It’s ok, just try to double check before you post next time.
Anyway, Moritz Wagner does have good playmaking skills. He handles the ball well for a big man, attack closeouts well, can post up, as well as pass out of double teams well. Not sure what that has to do with his assist numbers. And he’s a very solid defender. He doesn’t protect the rim, but he defends well in space for a guy his size. He’s also a good post defender and has good instincts, he averages a steal a game. Him playing the 5 in Michigan’s defense allows them to hedge pick and rolls hard, which is a big reason why they are 13th in defensive efficiency in the nation.
So I think he’s well worth a late 1st/early 2nd. And a journeyman is someone like Ersan Ilyasova or Trevor Booker. If you want to say that's his floor, I would be ok with that. But to say it's his ceiling just doesn't make sense, it's like you don't know what ceiling means. Maybe go do some research, and come back when you know a little more about him.
Wow! So basically someone like Illyasova is his floor? What's his ceiling then? Please keep educating me on this guy because clearly he's a lot better, and moves his feet faster, than where draft sites have him. That said, since you seem the be the go to guy for all things Wagner, why is it that he went back to school after the combine? Doesn't that seem odd? Can you name another example where a player went to the combine, went back to school due to some mysterious reason (lack of talent perhaps), and carved out a solid, non journeyman type career? Thanks.
I don't have to, given that a new NCAA rule created in 2016 gave prospects the chance to return to school until May 25th, which is AFTER the combine. Previously you had to decide by April 16th, which is BEFORE the combine. So now anyone who is even considering declaring for the draft can go to the combine, and still choose to return to school.
You really should do some research on topics before you go and get into an argument about them. That's twice you've ended up looking silly.
yes... and the guy he wouldn't mind taking a risk on (Diallo) ...did the exact same thing
You don't see any difference in that comparison? Diallo was 18, a 5 star recruit, and hadn't played a single game in college. That said, he posted an insane vert and had nearly a 7 foot wingspan. The kid is still 19, raw as can be, and while he's risky as any prospect, there is no denying his ceiling is immense.
Buck, the rule started in 2016 and that year there were nearly 20 players that participated and returned to school. It's a great rule and it allows college players to obtain real feedback from NBA teams, as opposed to listening to false hopes from agents. Last year Wagner took advantage of that opportunity and apparently the feedback he received wasn't good. If not, he would've likely remained in the draft. To think that some 12 months later NBA teams will have a different view of him is a reach. You never answered what player you compare his ceiling to. I'm curious on how much you're actually overrating him.
do you understand that big players usually take longer to develop? Not all good ones are Ayton off the bat
Moritz was skinny last season and filled out nicely this past season (this is something he has had to work on from day 1). This issue alone could make a difference between a big player being drafted to being undrafted
2nd he has done a nice job expanding his range. He was one of the better 3 point shooting PF/C in all of NCAA. But you see little value in this for some reason
Moritz has the size, strength, mobility, motor and IQ to be a more than adequate team defender under CBS. Especially off the bench
nobody is stating that he is going to be a starting all calibre Center like you foolishly hope Diallo may become
It is safer to draft the Brogdons of the world from the 20s up to the end of the 2nd round. There is a decent track record of these kind of players at least helping you out in some type of capacity (off bench/specialist).
When you have multiple picks you can take a chance. The Celts dont this season
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I don’t think Eddie20 knows who Moritz Wagner is. If you did, you wouldn’t argue that his game won’t translate to the NBA. Quite the opposite actually, as his shooting and playmaking at 6’11’’ is built perfectly for the modern NBA. It’s also ridiculous to call him a “low ceiling player”. He has gotten better every year since he came to America when he was 18, and he still is improving. He went from coming off the bench to being the focal point of championship team. And it’s crazy to think that Yabu would “completely eat up Wagner”. Yabu has done nothing so far, college or NBA. We have him for his potential, not for how good he is right now.
TP Triboy. I’m a big Wagner fan, and he’s the reason I picked Michigan to win it all (over Villanova as well). He’s very well rounded and extremely versatile. If we could get him late 1st/early 2nd, it would be a great pick.
Wagner tried to come out last year, but after the combine the consensus from teams was that he should go back to school. That's not a real good sign.
He can shoot, yeah, but he has really bad feet. I'm not sure what position he's going to defend at the NBA level. This guy screams Pittsnogle to me. Good college player, good shooter, but not good enough for the NBA. Again, he has a really low ceiling. Best case scenario is probably a journeyman type.
Yabu, who has more potential, is also a better player than Wagner right now. He would feast on collegiate athletes.
No, he’s really not. And you have no evidence or stats that would suggest otherwise. The only league Yabu has played enough minutes in for us to judge him was in China. There is no reason to suggest that he would be able to lead a team to the National Championship or dominate in college.
And you’re just wrong about Wagner. Even if you don’t think he’ll end up being good, it’s ridiculous to say that his absolute best case scenario is a journeyman. When someone who is 6’11’’, plays solid defense, and his shooting and playmaking abilities hits their ceiling, they aren’t a journeyman type player. That just doesn’t make any sense.
We might not be talking about the same player. Because the guy that I'm talking about is not a playmaker (averages 0.8 apg in 27.5 mpg) and is a bad defender. Is the guy you're referring going to be able to defend the PNR and switch onto smaller players, you know, things that are key in Stevens D?
In all seriousness, being a journeymen isn't a slight on the guy. It's tough to make it. College success means little in having success at the NBA level. Players more talent and with more greater collegiate accolades have failed. I just don't see any upside in the guy, so why waste a roster spot on a player who's not really going to help you much now or in the future?
That’s what I was saying. It’s good to see you admit you were talking about the wrong guy. It’s ok, just try to double check before you post next time.
Anyway, Moritz Wagner does have good playmaking skills. He handles the ball well for a big man, attack closeouts well, can post up, as well as pass out of double teams well. Not sure what that has to do with his assist numbers. And he’s a very solid defender. He doesn’t protect the rim, but he defends well in space for a guy his size. He’s also a good post defender and has good instincts, he averages a steal a game. Him playing the 5 in Michigan’s defense allows them to hedge pick and rolls hard, which is a big reason why they are 13th in defensive efficiency in the nation.
So I think he’s well worth a late 1st/early 2nd. And a journeyman is someone like Ersan Ilyasova or Trevor Booker. If you want to say that's his floor, I would be ok with that. But to say it's his ceiling just doesn't make sense, it's like you don't know what ceiling means. Maybe go do some research, and come back when you know a little more about him.
Wow! So basically someone like Illyasova is his floor? What's his ceiling then? Please keep educating me on this guy because clearly he's a lot better, and moves his feet faster, than where draft sites have him. That said, since you seem the be the go to guy for all things Wagner, why is it that he went back to school after the combine? Doesn't that seem odd? Can you name another example where a player went to the combine, went back to school due to some mysterious reason (lack of talent perhaps), and carved out a solid, non journeyman type career? Thanks.
I don't have to, given that a new NCAA rule created in 2016 gave prospects the chance to return to school until May 25th, which is AFTER the combine. Previously you had to decide by April 16th, which is BEFORE the combine. So now anyone who is even considering declaring for the draft can go to the combine, and still choose to return to school.
You really should do some research on topics before you go and get into an argument about them. That's twice you've ended up looking silly.
yes... and the guy he wouldn't mind taking a risk on (Diallo) ...did the exact same thing
You don't see any difference in that comparison? Diallo was 18, a 5 star recruit, and hadn't played a single game in college. That said, he posted an insane vert and had nearly a 7 foot wingspan. The kid is still 19, raw as can be, and while he's risky as any prospect, there is no denying his ceiling is immense.
If he is as good as you describe him to be, he would have rocked it this season ...instead he struggled. It wasn't even close
He got the mins. But he showed little in terms of consistency. Poor 2nd half. Just too skinny and has average IQ
He hasn't done much to change his position from last seasons draft. Likely will go in the 2nd round again, unless some GM that likes to play darts in the dark like you , takes a chance on him earlier
He should stay play another season of college ball to try to improve his standings in the draft imo
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I don’t think Eddie20 knows who Moritz Wagner is. If you did, you wouldn’t argue that his game won’t translate to the NBA. Quite the opposite actually, as his shooting and playmaking at 6’11’’ is built perfectly for the modern NBA. It’s also ridiculous to call him a “low ceiling player”. He has gotten better every year since he came to America when he was 18, and he still is improving. He went from coming off the bench to being the focal point of championship team. And it’s crazy to think that Yabu would “completely eat up Wagner”. Yabu has done nothing so far, college or NBA. We have him for his potential, not for how good he is right now.
TP Triboy. I’m a big Wagner fan, and he’s the reason I picked Michigan to win it all (over Villanova as well). He’s very well rounded and extremely versatile. If we could get him late 1st/early 2nd, it would be a great pick.
Wagner tried to come out last year, but after the combine the consensus from teams was that he should go back to school. That's not a real good sign.
He can shoot, yeah, but he has really bad feet. I'm not sure what position he's going to defend at the NBA level. This guy screams Pittsnogle to me. Good college player, good shooter, but not good enough for the NBA. Again, he has a really low ceiling. Best case scenario is probably a journeyman type.
Yabu, who has more potential, is also a better player than Wagner right now. He would feast on collegiate athletes.
No, he’s really not. And you have no evidence or stats that would suggest otherwise. The only league Yabu has played enough minutes in for us to judge him was in China. There is no reason to suggest that he would be able to lead a team to the National Championship or dominate in college.
And you’re just wrong about Wagner. Even if you don’t think he’ll end up being good, it’s ridiculous to say that his absolute best case scenario is a journeyman. When someone who is 6’11’’, plays solid defense, and his shooting and playmaking abilities hits their ceiling, they aren’t a journeyman type player. That just doesn’t make any sense.
We might not be talking about the same player. Because the guy that I'm talking about is not a playmaker (averages 0.8 apg in 27.5 mpg) and is a bad defender. Is the guy you're referring going to be able to defend the PNR and switch onto smaller players, you know, things that are key in Stevens D?
In all seriousness, being a journeymen isn't a slight on the guy. It's tough to make it. College success means little in having success at the NBA level. Players more talent and with more greater collegiate accolades have failed. I just don't see any upside in the guy, so why waste a roster spot on a player who's not really going to help you much now or in the future?
That’s what I was saying. It’s good to see you admit you were talking about the wrong guy. It’s ok, just try to double check before you post next time.
Anyway, Moritz Wagner does have good playmaking skills. He handles the ball well for a big man, attack closeouts well, can post up, as well as pass out of double teams well. Not sure what that has to do with his assist numbers. And he’s a very solid defender. He doesn’t protect the rim, but he defends well in space for a guy his size. He’s also a good post defender and has good instincts, he averages a steal a game. Him playing the 5 in Michigan’s defense allows them to hedge pick and rolls hard, which is a big reason why they are 13th in defensive efficiency in the nation.
So I think he’s well worth a late 1st/early 2nd. And a journeyman is someone like Ersan Ilyasova or Trevor Booker. If you want to say that's his floor, I would be ok with that. But to say it's his ceiling just doesn't make sense, it's like you don't know what ceiling means. Maybe go do some research, and come back when you know a little more about him.
Wow! So basically someone like Illyasova is his floor? What's his ceiling then? Please keep educating me on this guy because clearly he's a lot better, and moves his feet faster, than where draft sites have him. That said, since you seem the be the go to guy for all things Wagner, why is it that he went back to school after the combine? Doesn't that seem odd? Can you name another example where a player went to the combine, went back to school due to some mysterious reason (lack of talent perhaps), and carved out a solid, non journeyman type career? Thanks.
I don't have to, given that a new NCAA rule created in 2016 gave prospects the chance to return to school until May 25th, which is AFTER the combine. Previously you had to decide by April 16th, which is BEFORE the combine. So now anyone who is even considering declaring for the draft can go to the combine, and still choose to return to school.
You really should do some research on topics before you go and get into an argument about them. That's twice you've ended up looking silly.
yes... and the guy he wouldn't mind taking a risk on (Diallo) ...did the exact same thing
You don't see any difference in that comparison? Diallo was 18, a 5 star recruit, and hadn't played a single game in college. That said, he posted an insane vert and had nearly a 7 foot wingspan. The kid is still 19, raw as can be, and while he's risky as any prospect, there is no denying his ceiling is immense.
nobody is stating that he is going to be a starting all calibre Center like you foolishly hope Diallo may become
He hasn't done much to change his position from last seasons draft. Likely will go in the 2nd round again, unless some GM that likes to play darts in the dark like you , takes a chance on him earlier
Who are you talking about? Cheick?
You're really hung up on Diallo, huh? I'd rather take Brown, which I stated, but I wouldn't be at all opposed to taking a player with Diallo's upside. Keeping him in the G-League, let him learn the PG position, and see what happens. If he busts, you cut him like Young. If he booms, you just nailed a pick at a ridiculous deal.
Bigs may take longer to develop, but that's all dependent on the player. There are close to finish products (like a Olynyk or Kaminsky) that will develop marginally. Then you have raw athletes (like a Capela or DeAndre) that will take longer to develop. Again, the position doesn't necessarily mean linear development.
If you guys want to be aboard the Wagner hype train, then be my guest. I just don't see much in him. He looks like he's going to be badly exposed on the next level. Time will tell, hopefully he turns out better than Mickey did, though.
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I propose that we henceforth refer to bucketgetter as "Buckets" on a job well done.
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I don’t think Eddie20 knows who Moritz Wagner is. If you did, you wouldn’t argue that his game won’t translate to the NBA. Quite the opposite actually, as his shooting and playmaking at 6’11’’ is built perfectly for the modern NBA. It’s also ridiculous to call him a “low ceiling player”. He has gotten better every year since he came to America when he was 18, and he still is improving. He went from coming off the bench to being the focal point of championship team. And it’s crazy to think that Yabu would “completely eat up Wagner”. Yabu has done nothing so far, college or NBA. We have him for his potential, not for how good he is right now.
TP Triboy. I’m a big Wagner fan, and he’s the reason I picked Michigan to win it all (over Villanova as well). He’s very well rounded and extremely versatile. If we could get him late 1st/early 2nd, it would be a great pick.
Wagner tried to come out last year, but after the combine the consensus from teams was that he should go back to school. That's not a real good sign.
He can shoot, yeah, but he has really bad feet. I'm not sure what position he's going to defend at the NBA level. This guy screams Pittsnogle to me. Good college player, good shooter, but not good enough for the NBA. Again, he has a really low ceiling. Best case scenario is probably a journeyman type.
Yabu, who has more potential, is also a better player than Wagner right now. He would feast on collegiate athletes.
No, he’s really not. And you have no evidence or stats that would suggest otherwise. The only league Yabu has played enough minutes in for us to judge him was in China. There is no reason to suggest that he would be able to lead a team to the National Championship or dominate in college.
And you’re just wrong about Wagner. Even if you don’t think he’ll end up being good, it’s ridiculous to say that his absolute best case scenario is a journeyman. When someone who is 6’11’’, plays solid defense, and his shooting and playmaking abilities hits their ceiling, they aren’t a journeyman type player. That just doesn’t make any sense.
We might not be talking about the same player. Because the guy that I'm talking about is not a playmaker (averages 0.8 apg in 27.5 mpg) and is a bad defender. Is the guy you're referring going to be able to defend the PNR and switch onto smaller players, you know, things that are key in Stevens D?
In all seriousness, being a journeymen isn't a slight on the guy. It's tough to make it. College success means little in having success at the NBA level. Players more talent and with more greater collegiate accolades have failed. I just don't see any upside in the guy, so why waste a roster spot on a player who's not really going to help you much now or in the future?
That’s what I was saying. It’s good to see you admit you were talking about the wrong guy. It’s ok, just try to double check before you post next time.
Anyway, Moritz Wagner does have good playmaking skills. He handles the ball well for a big man, attack closeouts well, can post up, as well as pass out of double teams well. Not sure what that has to do with his assist numbers. And he’s a very solid defender. He doesn’t protect the rim, but he defends well in space for a guy his size. He’s also a good post defender and has good instincts, he averages a steal a game. Him playing the 5 in Michigan’s defense allows them to hedge pick and rolls hard, which is a big reason why they are 13th in defensive efficiency in the nation.
So I think he’s well worth a late 1st/early 2nd. And a journeyman is someone like Ersan Ilyasova or Trevor Booker. If you want to say that's his floor, I would be ok with that. But to say it's his ceiling just doesn't make sense, it's like you don't know what ceiling means. Maybe go do some research, and come back when you know a little more about him.
Wow! So basically someone like Illyasova is his floor? What's his ceiling then? Please keep educating me on this guy because clearly he's a lot better, and moves his feet faster, than where draft sites have him. That said, since you seem the be the go to guy for all things Wagner, why is it that he went back to school after the combine? Doesn't that seem odd? Can you name another example where a player went to the combine, went back to school due to some mysterious reason (lack of talent perhaps), and carved out a solid, non journeyman type career? Thanks.
I don't have to, given that a new NCAA rule created in 2016 gave prospects the chance to return to school until May 25th, which is AFTER the combine. Previously you had to decide by April 16th, which is BEFORE the combine. So now anyone who is even considering declaring for the draft can go to the combine, and still choose to return to school.
You really should do some research on topics before you go and get into an argument about them. That's twice you've ended up looking silly.
yes... and the guy he wouldn't mind taking a risk on (Diallo) ...did the exact same thing
You don't see any difference in that comparison? Diallo was 18, a 5 star recruit, and hadn't played a single game in college. That said, he posted an insane vert and had nearly a 7 foot wingspan. The kid is still 19, raw as can be, and while he's risky as any prospect, there is no denying his ceiling is immense.
nobody is stating that he is going to be a starting all calibre Center like you foolishly hope Diallo may become
He hasn't done much to change his position from last seasons draft. Likely will go in the 2nd round again, unless some GM that likes to play darts in the dark like you , takes a chance on him earlier
Who are you talking about? Cheick?
You're really hung up on Diallo, huh? I'd rather take Brown, which I stated, but I wouldn't be at all opposed to taking a player with Diallo's upside. Keeping him in the G-League, let him learn the PG position, and see what happens. If he busts, you cut him like Young. If he booms, you just nailed a pick at a ridiculous deal.
Bigs may take longer to develop, but that's all dependent on the player. There are close to finish products (like a Olynyk or Kaminsky) that will develop marginally. Then you have raw athletes (like a Capela or DeAndre) that will take longer to develop. Again, the position doesn't necessarily mean linear development.
If you guys want to be aboard the Wagner hype train, then be my guest. I just don't see much in him. He looks like he's going to be badly exposed on the next level. Time will tell, hopefully he turns out better than Mickey did, though.
If teams actually think Diallo is a high upside prospect, he'll be gone before we pick. High upside prospects don't last to the late 1st. Diallo's athleticism doesn't make him a high upside prospect as a basketball player. Although a freshman, he did practice against Fox, Monk, etc in the 2nd half of last season. Diallo had a chance to step up for Kentucky this season but he didn't do so. Don't see why you think he can develop into a PG. If he succeeds it will be as an athletic D+3 wing. A fast paced team like the Suns or Sixers would probably be better for him although he ought to consider going back to Kentucky and trying again in the weaker 2019 draft.
I'd agree that Moritz Wagner doesn't seem to have much upside as a NBA prospect. Ilyasova seems closer to his ceiling than his floor. Haven't seen much of Bruce Bowen but his 3pt shooting is a concern and he's almost 22.
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I don’t think Eddie20 knows who Moritz Wagner is. If you did, you wouldn’t argue that his game won’t translate to the NBA. Quite the opposite actually, as his shooting and playmaking at 6’11’’ is built perfectly for the modern NBA. It’s also ridiculous to call him a “low ceiling player”. He has gotten better every year since he came to America when he was 18, and he still is improving. He went from coming off the bench to being the focal point of championship team. And it’s crazy to think that Yabu would “completely eat up Wagner”. Yabu has done nothing so far, college or NBA. We have him for his potential, not for how good he is right now.
TP Triboy. I’m a big Wagner fan, and he’s the reason I picked Michigan to win it all (over Villanova as well). He’s very well rounded and extremely versatile. If we could get him late 1st/early 2nd, it would be a great pick.
Wagner tried to come out last year, but after the combine the consensus from teams was that he should go back to school. That's not a real good sign.
He can shoot, yeah, but he has really bad feet. I'm not sure what position he's going to defend at the NBA level. This guy screams Pittsnogle to me. Good college player, good shooter, but not good enough for the NBA. Again, he has a really low ceiling. Best case scenario is probably a journeyman type.
Yabu, who has more potential, is also a better player than Wagner right now. He would feast on collegiate athletes.
No, he’s really not. And you have no evidence or stats that would suggest otherwise. The only league Yabu has played enough minutes in for us to judge him was in China. There is no reason to suggest that he would be able to lead a team to the National Championship or dominate in college.
And you’re just wrong about Wagner. Even if you don’t think he’ll end up being good, it’s ridiculous to say that his absolute best case scenario is a journeyman. When someone who is 6’11’’, plays solid defense, and his shooting and playmaking abilities hits their ceiling, they aren’t a journeyman type player. That just doesn’t make any sense.
We might not be talking about the same player. Because the guy that I'm talking about is not a playmaker (averages 0.8 apg in 27.5 mpg) and is a bad defender. Is the guy you're referring going to be able to defend the PNR and switch onto smaller players, you know, things that are key in Stevens D?
In all seriousness, being a journeymen isn't a slight on the guy. It's tough to make it. College success means little in having success at the NBA level. Players more talent and with more greater collegiate accolades have failed. I just don't see any upside in the guy, so why waste a roster spot on a player who's not really going to help you much now or in the future?
That’s what I was saying. It’s good to see you admit you were talking about the wrong guy. It’s ok, just try to double check before you post next time.
Anyway, Moritz Wagner does have good playmaking skills. He handles the ball well for a big man, attack closeouts well, can post up, as well as pass out of double teams well. Not sure what that has to do with his assist numbers. And he’s a very solid defender. He doesn’t protect the rim, but he defends well in space for a guy his size. He’s also a good post defender and has good instincts, he averages a steal a game. Him playing the 5 in Michigan’s defense allows them to hedge pick and rolls hard, which is a big reason why they are 13th in defensive efficiency in the nation.
So I think he’s well worth a late 1st/early 2nd. And a journeyman is someone like Ersan Ilyasova or Trevor Booker. If you want to say that's his floor, I would be ok with that. But to say it's his ceiling just doesn't make sense, it's like you don't know what ceiling means. Maybe go do some research, and come back when you know a little more about him.
Wow! So basically someone like Illyasova is his floor? What's his ceiling then? Please keep educating me on this guy because clearly he's a lot better, and moves his feet faster, than where draft sites have him. That said, since you seem the be the go to guy for all things Wagner, why is it that he went back to school after the combine? Doesn't that seem odd? Can you name another example where a player went to the combine, went back to school due to some mysterious reason (lack of talent perhaps), and carved out a solid, non journeyman type career? Thanks.
I don't have to, given that a new NCAA rule created in 2016 gave prospects the chance to return to school until May 25th, which is AFTER the combine. Previously you had to decide by April 16th, which is BEFORE the combine. So now anyone who is even considering declaring for the draft can go to the combine, and still choose to return to school.
You really should do some research on topics before you go and get into an argument about them. That's twice you've ended up looking silly.
yes... and the guy he wouldn't mind taking a risk on (Diallo) ...did the exact same thing
You don't see any difference in that comparison? Diallo was 18, a 5 star recruit, and hadn't played a single game in college. That said, he posted an insane vert and had nearly a 7 foot wingspan. The kid is still 19, raw as can be, and while he's risky as any prospect, there is no denying his ceiling is immense.
nobody is stating that he is going to be a starting all calibre Center like you foolishly hope Diallo may become
He hasn't done much to change his position from last seasons draft. Likely will go in the 2nd round again, unless some GM that likes to play darts in the dark like you , takes a chance on him earlier
Who are you talking about? Cheick?
You're really hung up on Diallo, huh? I'd rather take Brown, which I stated, but I wouldn't be at all opposed to taking a player with Diallo's upside. Keeping him in the G-League, let him learn the PG position, and see what happens. If he busts, you cut him like Young. If he booms, you just nailed a pick at a ridiculous deal.
Bigs may take longer to develop, but that's all dependent on the player. There are close to finish products (like a Olynyk or Kaminsky) that will develop marginally. Then you have raw athletes (like a Capela or DeAndre) that will take longer to develop. Again, the position doesn't necessarily mean linear development.
If you guys want to be aboard the Wagner hype train, then be my guest. I just don't see much in him. He looks like he's going to be badly exposed on the next level. Time will tell, hopefully he turns out better than Mickey did, though.
If teams actually think Diallo is a high upside prospect, he'll be gone before we pick. High upside prospects don't last to the late 1st. Diallo's athleticism doesn't make him a high upside prospect as a basketball player. Although a freshman, he did practice against Fox, Monk, etc in the 2nd half of last season. Diallo had a chance to step up for Kentucky this season but he didn't do so. Don't see why you think he can develop into a PG. If he succeeds it will be as an athletic D+3 wing. A fast paced team like the Suns or Sixers would probably be better for him although he ought to consider going back to Kentucky and trying again in the weaker 2019 draft.
I'd agree that Moritz Wagner doesn't seem to have much upside as a NBA prospect. Ilyasova seems closer to his ceiling than his floor. Haven't seen much of Bruce Bowen but his 3pt shooting is a concern and he's almost 22.
A healthy Ilyasova would be a tremendous pickup at 27-29 in a draft
This fantasy in hoping a late 20s pick turns out to be a home run is ....
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What about you? you fall in love with players like Cliff Alexandre, Dragan Bender... lol
Any one who fell for Dragan Bender has lost a great deal of respect for their scouting as I see it. More hype than substance.
That being said, we all fall for guys each year.
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I like Mo Wagner a lot. Been on his hype train for a few weeks now. He is a late 1st, 2nd round pick, no doubt about that. I don't think he's the second coming of Dirk. But I think he has value at the 27-30 range. He's a 6'11(via ESPN) PF/C with a ton of energy. He's flying around doing everything when the team needs it. He put up 24 and 15 in his Final Four game (obviously with an * on the rebounding since Loyola-Chicago is a bunch of midgets.)
But looking at his fit as far as centers go on the C's, he's tall, shoots the 3 at a high level, can handle the ball, make the extra pass, is not a turnstile on D (he actually plays pretty solid D and has great help D, just doesn't block a lot of shots), his energy is contagious, and KG is his favorite basketball player. Seems like a match made in heaven. I don't get the hate, he's not a bad prospect. I want a center to develop (especially since Zizic is gone :'(.)
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What about you? you fall in love with players like Cliff Alexandre, Dragan Bender... lol
Any one who fell for Dragan Bender has lost a great deal of respect for their scouting as I see it. More hype than substance.
That being said, we all fall for guys each year.
:o
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Isn't Mo Wagner only 20 years old? If so I think he has a lot of room to grow, especially as a big man.
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4-5 so far for 11 pts and the Wolverines have a total of 2 players that are doing all the scoring so far
At this rate, Moritz printout of a 1st round ticket is close to complete (was afraid this was going to happen =T)
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Isn't Mo Wagner only 20 years old? If so I think he has a lot of room to grow, especially as a big man.
yup. he will be turning 21 at the end of this month
exactly. Most big players take time to develop
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Isn't Mo Wagner only 20 years old? If so I think he has a lot of room to grow, especially as a big man.
yup. he will be turning 21 at the end of this month
exactly. Most big players take time to develop
DiVincenzo is looking like the best player on the floor right now.
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Good, not great, college player who's going to struggle mightily, both defensively and on the boards, at the next level. I don't see much upside in Pittsnogle 2.0.
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Isn't Mo Wagner only 20 years old? If so I think he has a lot of room to grow, especially as a big man.
yup. he will be turning 21 at the end of this month
exactly. Most big players take time to develop
DiVincenzo is looking like the best player on the floor right now.
Reminds of Ainge in college. Also 6’5”. Similar confidence.
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Isn't Mo Wagner only 20 years old? If so I think he has a lot of room to grow, especially as a big man.
yup. he will be turning 21 at the end of this month
exactly. Most big players take time to develop
DiVincenzo is looking like the best player on the floor right now.
Reminds of Ainge in college. Also 6’5”. Similar confidence.
That's a good comparison. I haven't see this kid play before but he was amazing in this game.
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I like Wagner as a fringe NBA prospect who a team should take a shot at in the early to mid 2nd round range. Ultimately I hope he stays in school 1 more year and work on having a Frank Kamisky like senior season. Their stats as junior are very comparable. If Wagner continues to get stronger he could work his way into the first round next season.
As for the Celtics I do not think he will provide enough dynamic offense to make up for his defensive short comings and earn court time. He shares many of the defensive limitations as KO but is not nearly as over all skilled on offense.
I personally think the Cs will find themselves picking from a crop of talented but flawed guards/wings at the 27th pick. Such as Grayson Allen, Rawle Alkins, Trent Jr, Melton or Frazier.
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nbadraft.net has him at 40 (the latest mock was dated 3/29). That seems about right.
They have the C's taking Caleb Martin at 27.
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Any Wagner fans still left?
A) Playing just 6.9 MPG and is the unathletic defensive sieve I expected.
B) Even more telling than his on-court "production" is that his name is nowhere to be found in the Pelicans-Lakers trade talks when half the roster has been named. Very indicative of his perceived value across the league, as even if the Pelicans don't value him, he could be flipped to someone who does. However, looks like that doesn't exist.
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Any Wagner fans still left?
A) Playing just 6.9 MPG and is the unathletic defensive sieve I expected.
B) Even more telling than his on-court "production" is that his name is nowhere to be found in the Pelicans-Lakers trade talks when half the roster has been named. Very indicative of his perceived value across the league, as even if the Pelicans don't value him, he could be flipped to someone who does. However, looks like that doesn't exist.
I like him. If I were the Pelicans I would put more stock in Wagner than in Zubac. Especially since Zubac is a free agent this summer.
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Any Wagner fans still left?
A) Playing just 6.9 MPG and is the unathletic defensive sieve I expected.
B) Even more telling than his on-court "production" is that his name is nowhere to be found in the Pelicans-Lakers trade talks when half the roster has been named. Very indicative of his perceived value across the league, as even if the Pelicans don't value him, he could be flipped to someone who does. However, looks like that doesn't exist.
I like him. If I were the Pelicans I would put more stock in Wagner than in Zubac. Especially since Zubac is a free agent this summer.
But it's not just the Pelicans, it's his value across the league. Fairly sure, if another team had interest in Wagner they would contact the Pelicans and tell them to get him in the package and they'll send them something for him. So basically giving the Pelicans something for nothing. It's obvious this isn't happening because there isn't any interest in Wagner.
People were hyping him based on NCAA success and that strategy (see Kaminsky, Napier, etc.) has failed time and time again.
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Any Wagner fans still left?
A) Playing just 6.9 MPG and is the unathletic defensive sieve I expected.
B) Even more telling than his on-court "production" is that his name is nowhere to be found in the Pelicans-Lakers trade talks when half the roster has been named. Very indicative of his perceived value across the league, as even if the Pelicans don't value him, he could be flipped to someone who does. However, looks like that doesn't exist.
I like him. If I were the Pelicans I would put more stock in Wagner than in Zubac. Especially since Zubac is a free agent this summer.
But it's not just the Pelicans, it's his value across the league. Fairly sure, if another team had interest in Wagner they would contact the Pelicans and tell them to get him in the package and they'll send them something for him. So basically giving the Pelicans something for nothing. It's obvious this isn't happening because there isn't any interest in Wagner.
People were hyping him based on NCAA success and that strategy (see Kaminsky, Napier, etc.) has failed time and time again.
I was not a major supporter of his pro potential despite (or more arguably) because of my being a Michigan fan, and having watched dozens of his college games. On the defensive end, the game moved too quickly for him and he got caught in bad positions.
That said, your assertion above regarding offers to New Orleans is highly overstated. If the Pelicans demanded Wagner over Zubac, that would obviously not be an impediment to a Davis trade. However, if the rumors we’ve heard are true, that the Pelicans really haven’t made an actual counter offer, then you would never hear that New Orleans prefer Wagner over Zubac, because that isn’t the hold up of the deal, but rather it’s the package as a total, regardless of Mo’s inclusion or not.
Wagner needs to go to a team with good defensive coaching and the available playing time to let him get his reps in. It’s not the technique or the effort, but rather the awareness, reaction, and decision-making that makes him a real liability on defense, and the only way to improve that is to give him minutes. He did improve between and during his final two seasons in school with such playing time. In Boston, however, that would not be an option, and so we should not pursue him.
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Any Wagner fans still left?
A) Playing just 6.9 MPG and is the unathletic defensive sieve I expected.
B) Even more telling than his on-court "production" is that his name is nowhere to be found in the Pelicans-Lakers trade talks when half the roster has been named. Very indicative of his perceived value across the league, as even if the Pelicans don't value him, he could be flipped to someone who does. However, looks like that doesn't exist.
TP for being petty and digging into the archives. I love that you can do that on this forum