CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Tr1boy on May 26, 2018, 12:33:15 AM
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Hats off to these two. In a hostile environment like tonight.... no fear/execution
I love these kind of players and you need these kind of players to win championships. Hope both are Celts for a long time to come
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Rozier 28 points
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXsMYvHGkg0
Brown 27 points
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qylB2qUKKU
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TP triboy. Couldn't agree more. You always hear "you need guys like X to win a chip." I translate that to you need high character guys that bring their grit when it matters most.
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TP triboy. Couldn't agree more. You always hear "you need guys like X to win a chip." I translate that to you need high character guys that bring their grit when it matters most.
Just cold blooded
you can tell these guys wanted to close things out tonight. They came prepared to do that
the rest .... deer in the headlights.
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Smart may not be a great shooter...but the grit he brought tonight was fantastic. He's not the best Celtic on the floor but he wins the grit award every single night. My favorite play was when he dove over Lebron on the ground and yanked the ball out of his hands in the process. Also the block on Lebron was awesome, especially giving up so much size....
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Definitely agree about Jaylen. Him and JT have the potential to be a legendary wing tandem for a decade.
Scary Terry will be very interesting to see. He wants to be a starter, but is worse than our injured top-4 PG in the league. Hard to see us keeping him
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Definitely agree about Jaylen. Him and JT have the potential to be a legendary wing tandem for a decade.
Scary Terry will be very interesting to see. He wants to be a starter, but is worse than our injured top-4 PG in the league. Hard to see us keeping him
we don't know for sure
But if he is willing to take 10-12 million per year to be the teams 6th man, I'm down for this
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Definitely agree about Jaylen. Him and JT have the potential to be a legendary wing tandem for a decade.
Scary Terry will be very interesting to see. He wants to be a starter, but is worse than our injured top-4 PG in the league. Hard to see us keeping him
we don't know for sure
But if he is willing to take 10-12 million per year to be the teams 6th man, I'm down for this
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/video/terry-rozier-one-day-ill-be-starter-league
But I agree, if he can buy into our legendary 6th man culture, he'd be awesome to keep
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Definitely agree about Jaylen. Him and JT have the potential to be a legendary wing tandem for a decade.
Scary Terry will be very interesting to see. He wants to be a starter, but is worse than our injured top-4 PG in the league. Hard to see us keeping him
we don't know for sure
But if he is willing to take 10-12 million per year to be the teams 6th man, I'm down for this
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/video/terry-rozier-one-day-ill-be-starter-league
But I agree, if he can buy into our legendary 6th man culture, he'd be awesome to keep
I think we'll have to sell that to Hayward next year, we're not going to bench Brown or Tatum and we're not going to play small with Horford at C after this game 6. But honestly, if we win game 7 (fingers crossed) and put up a good fight in the finals/win it all, why not trade Kyrie? He can bring back more value, is older, has injury concerns and takes up more cap space. But ofc if we get good value for him.
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Definitely agree about Jaylen. Him and JT have the potential to be a legendary wing tandem for a decade.
Scary Terry will be very interesting to see. He wants to be a starter, but is worse than our injured top-4 PG in the league. Hard to see us keeping him
we don't know for sure
But if he is willing to take 10-12 million per year to be the teams 6th man, I'm down for this
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/video/terry-rozier-one-day-ill-be-starter-league
But I agree, if he can buy into our legendary 6th man culture, he'd be awesome to keep
I think we'll have to sell that to Hayward next year, we're not going to bench Brown or Tatum and we're not going to play small with Horford at C after this game 6. But honestly, if we win game 7 (fingers crossed) and put up a good fight in the finals/win it all, why not trade Kyrie? He can bring back more value, is older, has injury concerns and takes up more cap space. But ofc if we get good value for him.
We not paying max money to a 6th man. JUST NO.
October 2018 starting 5:
PG - Kyrie Irving
SG - Jaylen Brown
SF - Gordon Hayward
PF - Jayson Tatum
C - Al Horford
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Definitely agree about Jaylen. Him and JT have the potential to be a legendary wing tandem for a decade.
Scary Terry will be very interesting to see. He wants to be a starter, but is worse than our injured top-4 PG in the league. Hard to see us keeping him
we don't know for sure
But if he is willing to take 10-12 million per year to be the teams 6th man, I'm down for this
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/video/terry-rozier-one-day-ill-be-starter-league
But I agree, if he can buy into our legendary 6th man culture, he'd be awesome to keep
I think we'll have to sell that to Hayward next year, we're not going to bench Brown or Tatum and we're not going to play small with Horford at C after this game 6. But honestly, if we win game 7 (fingers crossed) and put up a good fight in the finals/win it all, why not trade Kyrie? He can bring back more value, is older, has injury concerns and takes up more cap space. But ofc if we get good value for him.
I feel like Brad will go with the small-ball lineup of Irving/Brown/Hayward/Tatum/Horford next year anyway, because he seems to like it. And we may lose Baynes, which would suck majorly.
But the big problem is what you highlighted in the last line - can we get good value for him? I really don't know. I also don't know if I trust Terry to be a full time starting PG (yet). By January next year I think we'll have a better picture of what he is. If he works on his actual point guard craft over the summer, he could be anything.
Going to be a fun summer anyway!
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This is the first time Rozier played well away, and in this series he is more often not good than good
I see him has the physical and fundamentals to be a "big money player" in several years but still two steps away skill-wise to cover his cold days, (for example Tatum can give you efficient 15pt even when he is cold, while Rozier will be a none or minus)
I will not pay him big money and definetly not replacing Irving, i think he still best suited as bench guy for a champion team, for now
with that said i am happy he finally performed away, now it's only Horford who havn't
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Rozier is an above average starter/6th man type on a good team. he's been very streaky this playoffs where you dont know what you are going to get....which is the characteristic trait of a role type player. COntrast that to Isaiah thomas when he was here/Irving who pretty much put up those 20+ points every night..
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Smart may not be a great shooter...but the grit he brought tonight was fantastic. He's not the best Celtic on the floor but he wins the grit award every single night. My favorite play was when he dove over Lebron on the ground and yanked the ball out of his hands in the process. Also the block on Lebron was awesome, especially giving up so much size....
Since we are sticking Marcus Smart into a thread about how well Rozier and Brown played> What about the 2nd quarter when Marcus's horrible shot selection, trying to be the hero, blew our lead and put us in a hole?
Marcus needs less grit and more smarts!
I don't know what it is with you guys who drink the Marcus kool-aid - you need to acknowledge that with Marcus you get the bad, sometimes awful, with the good!
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Definitely agree about Jaylen. Him and JT have the potential to be a legendary wing tandem for a decade.
Scary Terry will be very interesting to see. He wants to be a starter, but is worse than our injured top-4 PG in the league. Hard to see us keeping him
we don't know for sure
But if he is willing to take 10-12 million per year to be the teams 6th man, I'm down for this
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/video/terry-rozier-one-day-ill-be-starter-league
But I agree, if he can buy into our legendary 6th man culture, he'd be awesome to keep
I think we'll have to sell that to Hayward next year, we're not going to bench Brown or Tatum and we're not going to play small with Horford at C after this game 6. But honestly, if we win game 7 (fingers crossed) and put up a good fight in the finals/win it all, why not trade Kyrie? He can bring back more value, is older, has injury concerns and takes up more cap space. But ofc if we get good value for him.
They're not going to bench their $30 million all star forward.
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So we're not benching a small forward who may not perform back at his previous all star levels for a few games to gauge where he is with two youngsters that may very well be all stars next year because he makes max money? Some sound logic you guys have there, I guess Hondo should have never been a 6th man.
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The last two games are a great example of why it's important not to overreact to one game. Marcus played one of his best games of the playoffs in game 5. Impressive defense, and actually was pretty good on offense - only a few bad shots, lots of good passes and a few buckets we really needed. Terry was ice cold.
Then in game 6, Terry basically kept us in the game on offense and played solid defense, scrambling around screens with maximum effort. Meanwhile, after a good start in the first quarter, Smart was pretty bad the rest of the way. Blown rotations leading to Jeff Green dunks and both Baynes and Stevens pulling him aside to wake him up. Bad heat check threes when we really didn't need them.
If you look at only one of these games to decide who each player is, you come up with a very different impression.
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So we're not benching a small forward who may not perform back at his previous all star levels for a few games to gauge where he is with two youngsters that may very well be all stars next year because he makes max money? Some sound logic you guys have there, I guess Hondo should have never been a 6th man.
I don't agree with the reasoning that because he's a max guy, he should start. We've seen star players come off the bench (from Hondo, to McHale, to Ginobli), so that doesn't really stand up.
However, I think Hayward should start due to the way he actually plays the game. He's an elite facilitator on the wing, which is something both Tatum and Brown aren't good at (at the moment). He's a great shooter from deep, good and versatile defender - much stronger than Brown - and incredibly consistent. I think he'd be the perfect guy next to our two youngsters.
I'm sure Brad will figure it out. It's a very good problem to have
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I think Tatum is a keeper too.
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So we're not benching a small forward who may not perform back at his previous all star levels for a few games to gauge where he is with two youngsters that may very well be all stars next year because he makes max money? Some sound logic you guys have there, I guess Hondo should have never been a 6th man.
You gauge where Hayward is in trainging camp and the preseason then set your lineup. Last year when Stevens did that, he came away with a lineup on opening night of Irving/Brown/Hayward/Tatum/Horford. See no reason why that is going to change, especially with the development of the Jays.
Also, Havlicek was a six man those early years because the Celtics had a stacked lineup of Cousy/Ramsay/Loscutoff/Heinsohn/Russell and had come off 4 straight championships with iterations of that lineup. Havlicek had to prove himself. Sam Jones came off the bench a bunch of year because Ramsay was in front of him. Its the way things were back then.
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My keepers are:
Irving
Brown
Hayward
Tatum
Horford
Rozier
Smart
Morris
Theis
Baynes
That's a championship rotation.
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Smart may not be a great shooter...but the grit he brought tonight was fantastic. He's not the best Celtic on the floor but he wins the grit award every single night. My favorite play was when he dove over Lebron on the ground and yanked the ball out of his hands in the process. Also the block on Lebron was awesome, especially giving up so much size....
If Smart was a better shooter or exercised better judgment on his shot selection he would be such a gun player with all the intangibles he brings to the team. He finishes well at the rim.
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So we're not benching a small forward who may not perform back at his previous all star levels for a few games to gauge where he is with two youngsters that may very well be all stars next year because he makes max money? Some sound logic you guys have there, I guess Hondo should have never been a 6th man.
I think you start the five players you feel give you the best chance to start the game well. Obviously matchups dictate that to a certain point. End of day it's about how many minutes they are playing and they will all get minutes. Assuming no change to the team over the summer I would expect the same starting five that started the season (Kyrie, Jaylen, Jayson, Gordon and Al).
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The last two games are a great example of why it's important not to overreact to one game. Marcus played one of his best games of the playoffs in game 5. Impressive defense, and actually was pretty good on offense - only a few bad shots, lots of good passes and a few buckets we really needed. Terry was ice cold.
Then in game 6, Terry basically kept us in the game on offense and played solid defense, scrambling around screens with maximum effort. Meanwhile, after a good start in the first quarter, Smart was pretty bad the rest of the way. Blown rotations leading to Jeff Green dunks and both Baynes and Stevens pulling him aside to wake him up. Bad heat check threes when we really didn't need them.
If you look at only one of these games to decide who each player is, you come up with a very different impression.
That's why the great players are the ones that are able to reduce the variation in performance level between games and provide consistent output. That's the next step in our guys, to get to that level where they can perform at the same level day in, day out.
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The last two games are a great example of why it's important not to overreact to one game. Marcus played one of his best games of the playoffs in game 5. Impressive defense, and actually was pretty good on offense - only a few bad shots, lots of good passes and a few buckets we really needed. Terry was ice cold.
Then in game 6, Terry basically kept us in the game on offense and played solid defense, scrambling around screens with maximum effort. Meanwhile, after a good start in the first quarter, Smart was pretty bad the rest of the way. Blown rotations leading to Jeff Green dunks and both Baynes and Stevens pulling him aside to wake him up. Bad heat check threes when we really didn't need them.
If you look at only one of these games to decide who each player is, you come up with a very different impression.
That's why the great players are the ones that are able to reduce the variation in performance level between games and provide consistent output. That's the next step in our guys, to get to that level where they can perform at the same level day in, day out.
Yeah, consistency is definitely a skill - and it separates the greats from the goods. Tatum’s efficiency is very steady, especially for a rookie, even when his overall production varies a bit. Very good sign.
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Smart may not be a great shooter...but the grit he brought tonight was fantastic. He's not the best Celtic on the floor but he wins the grit award every single night. My favorite play was when he dove over Lebron on the ground and yanked the ball out of his hands in the process. Also the block on Lebron was awesome, especially giving up so much size....
If Smart was a better shooter or exercised better judgment on his shot selection he would be such a gun player with all the intangibles he brings to the team. He finishes well at the rim.
We have been hoping for this for YEARS now
He is wild and careless with the ball in stretches (momentum killing). There are times late in games, he is "smarter" , less "riskier"
He doesn't put in this care, early in games. IF he put this care early in away playoff games...I would be happy
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We had 13 less rebounds, and 4 more turnovers. Kevin Love got knocked out after 5 minutes. They were doubling Al, but Tatum, Baynes and Morris still only combined for 9 rebounds in 88 minutes.
That was why we lost.
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The last two games are a great example of why it's important not to overreact to one game. Marcus played one of his best games of the playoffs in game 5. Impressive defense, and actually was pretty good on offense - only a few bad shots, lots of good passes and a few buckets we really needed. Terry was ice cold.
Then in game 6, Terry basically kept us in the game on offense and played solid defense, scrambling around screens with maximum effort. Meanwhile, after a good start in the first quarter, Smart was pretty bad the rest of the way. Blown rotations leading to Jeff Green dunks and both Baynes and Stevens pulling him aside to wake him up. Bad heat check threes when we really didn't need them.
If you look at only one of these games to decide who each player is, you come up with a very different impression.
That's why the great players are the ones that are able to reduce the variation in performance level between games and provide consistent output. That's the next step in our guys, to get to that level where they can perform at the same level day in, day out.
Yeah, consistency is definitely a skill - and it separates the greats from the goods. Tatum’s efficiency is very steady, especially for a rookie, even when his overall production varies a bit. Very good sign.
Tatum looked passive, scared, tentative last night, unlike in game home at 5
Hopefully this is only because he is a rookie
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The last two games are a great example of why it's important not to overreact to one game. Marcus played one of his best games of the playoffs in game 5. Impressive defense, and actually was pretty good on offense - only a few bad shots, lots of good passes and a few buckets we really needed. Terry was ice cold.
Then in game 6, Terry basically kept us in the game on offense and played solid defense, scrambling around screens with maximum effort. Meanwhile, after a good start in the first quarter, Smart was pretty bad the rest of the way. Blown rotations leading to Jeff Green dunks and both Baynes and Stevens pulling him aside to wake him up. Bad heat check threes when we really didn't need them.
If you look at only one of these games to decide who each player is, you come up with a very different impression.
That's why the great players are the ones that are able to reduce the variation in performance level between games and provide consistent output. That's the next step in our guys, to get to that level where they can perform at the same level day in, day out.
Yeah, consistency is definitely a skill - and it separates the greats from the goods. Tatum’s efficiency is very steady, especially for a rookie, even when his overall production varies a bit. Very good sign.
Tatum looked passive, scared, tentative last night, unlike in game home at 5
Hopefully this is only because he is a rookie
Not his best game. But after a slow start he took 11 shots in the second half and finished 7-13. Would have scored more if he could get a call on his drives. The efficiency, though, was there as it almost always is: better than 50%.
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So we're not benching a small forward who may not perform back at his previous all star levels for a few games to gauge where he is with two youngsters that may very well be all stars next year because he makes max money? Some sound logic you guys have there, I guess Hondo should have never been a 6th man.
Hondo is irrelevant to the current Celtics. If that's such a place of honor how is it you're declaring Hayward to the bench?
I love our young guys, but neither is ready to beat out a veteran who was an all star in the loaded western conference. He carried a team to the playoffs, proved he can go out and get 20-25 almost every night. Neither of our young forwards has proven themselves ready to do that.
But sending Hayward to the bench isn't nearly as ludicrous as the notion that Rozier is a keeper and Irving is expendable.
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So we're not benching a small forward who may not perform back at his previous all star levels for a few games to gauge where he is with two youngsters that may very well be all stars next year because he makes max money? Some sound logic you guys have there, I guess Hondo should have never been a 6th man.
Hondo is irrelevant to the current Celtics. If that's such a place of honor how is it you're declaring Hayward to the bench?
I love our young guys, but neither is ready to beat out a veteran who was an all star in the loaded western conference. He carried a team to the playoffs, proved he can go out and get 20-25 almost every night. Neither of our young forwards has proven themselves ready to do that.
But sending Hayward to the bench isn't nearly as ludicrous as the notion that Rozier is a keeper and Irving is expendable.
We could use Havlicek tomorrow. That dude never tired in a game!
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I love our young guys, but neither is ready to beat out a veteran who was an all star in the loaded western conference. He carried a team to the playoffs, proved he can go out and get 20-25 almost every night. Neither of our young forwards has proven themselves ready to do that.
Umm, isn't that exactly what they have proven?
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So we're not benching a small forward who may not perform back at his previous all star levels for a few games to gauge where he is with two youngsters that may very well be all stars next year because he makes max money? Some sound logic you guys have there, I guess Hondo should have never been a 6th man.
You gauge where Hayward is in trainging camp and the preseason then set your lineup. Last year when Stevens did that, he came away with a lineup on opening night of Irving/Brown/Hayward/Tatum/Horford. See no reason why that is going to change, especially with the development of the Jays.
Also, Havlicek was a six man those early years because the Celtics had a stacked lineup of Cousy/Ramsay/Loscutoff/Heinsohn/Russell and had come off 4 straight championships with iterations of that lineup. Havlicek had to prove himself. Sam Jones came off the bench a bunch of year because Ramsay was in front of him. Its the way things were back then.
I was talking about old Hondo in the late 70s, I'm pretty sure he was a sixth man at that point too but was still a great player.
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So we're not benching a small forward who may not perform back at his previous all star levels for a few games to gauge where he is with two youngsters that may very well be all stars next year because he makes max money? Some sound logic you guys have there, I guess Hondo should have never been a 6th man.
Hondo is irrelevant to the current Celtics. If that's such a place of honor how is it you're declaring Hayward to the bench?
I love our young guys, but neither is ready to beat out a veteran who was an all star in the loaded western conference. He carried a team to the playoffs, proved he can go out and get 20-25 almost every night. Neither of our young forwards has proven themselves ready to do that.
But sending Hayward to the bench isn't nearly as ludicrous as the notion that Rozier is a keeper and Irving is expendable.
So we're taking out how well both youngsters have done and their huge room for improvement out of the equation? It's not impossible to say both become all star caliber players after the offseason. And you don't know if Hayward will be himself right off the bat so I'd say put him as a 6th man while playing 30 mpg or so and see how it goes from there.
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I love our young guys, but neither is ready to beat out a veteran who was an all star in the loaded western conference. He carried a team to the playoffs, proved he can go out and get 20-25 almost every night. Neither of our young forwards has proven themselves ready to do that.
Umm, isn't that exactly what they have proven?
Not really
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I love our young guys, but neither is ready to beat out a veteran who was an all star in the loaded western conference. He carried a team to the playoffs, proved he can go out and get 20-25 almost every night. Neither of our young forwards has proven themselves ready to do that.
Umm, isn't that exactly what they have proven?
Not really
Um yes they have, by leading their teams in scoring consistently while winning more playoff games in a single run than Hayward has ever done in his whole career.
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Maybe they can't win veterans like LeBron by themselves... but with the help of Horford and the crowd they will... and they will win the title against the rockets
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I love our young guys, but neither is ready to beat out a veteran who was an all star in the loaded western conference. He carried a team to the playoffs, proved he can go out and get 20-25 almost every night. Neither of our young forwards has proven themselves ready to do that.
Umm, isn't that exactly what they have proven?
Not really
Um yes they have, by leading their teams in scoring consistently while winning more playoff games in a single run than Hayward has ever done in his whole career.
Yeah, and they're still provably worse than Hayward. Next
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I love our young guys, but neither is ready to beat out a veteran who was an all star in the loaded western conference. He carried a team to the playoffs, proved he can go out and get 20-25 almost every night. Neither of our young forwards has proven themselves ready to do that.
Umm, isn't that exactly what they have proven?
Not really
Um yes they have, by leading their teams in scoring consistently while winning more playoff games in a single run than Hayward has ever done in his whole career.
Yeah, and they're still provably worse than Hayward. Next
Not so sure about that after an offseason of work+improvement.
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I love our young guys, but neither is ready to beat out a veteran who was an all star in the loaded western conference. He carried a team to the playoffs, proved he can go out and get 20-25 almost every night. Neither of our young forwards has proven themselves ready to do that.
Umm, isn't that exactly what they have proven?
Not really
Um yes they have, by leading their teams in scoring consistently while winning more playoff games in a single run than Hayward has ever done in his whole career.
Yeah, and they're still provably worse than Hayward. Next
Not so sure about that after an offseason of work+improvement.
Don't know what the penchant is to try to rank players on the roster. It's not like you can assign Rozier an 82 and Hayward an 86 like NBA2k does. Basketball just doesn't work like that.
That this is even a conversation makes it clear that the Cs are in a good position. They are one game from the finals with 3-4 key injuries and they can potentially bring back everyone next year.
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Smart may not be a great shooter...but the grit he brought tonight was fantastic. He's not the best Celtic on the floor but he wins the grit award every single night. My favorite play was when he dove over Lebron on the ground and yanked the ball out of his hands in the process. Also the block on Lebron was awesome, especially giving up so much size....
Since we are sticking Marcus Smart into a thread about how well Rozier and Brown played> What about the 2nd quarter when Marcus's horrible shot selection, trying to be the hero, blew our lead and put us in a hole?
Marcus needs less grit and more smarts!
I don't know what it is with you guys who drink the Marcus kool-aid - you need to acknowledge that with Marcus you get the bad, sometimes awful, with the good!
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Smart may not be a great shooter...but the grit he brought tonight was fantastic. He's not the best Celtic on the floor but he wins the grit award every single night. My favorite play was when he dove over Lebron on the ground and yanked the ball out of his hands in the process. Also the block on Lebron was awesome, especially giving up so much size....
Since we are sticking Marcus Smart into a thread about how well Rozier and Brown played> What about the 2nd quarter when Marcus's horrible shot selection, trying to be the hero, blew our lead and put us in a hole?
Marcus needs less grit and more smarts!
I don't know what it is with you guys who drink the Marcus kool-aid - you need to acknowledge that with Marcus you get the bad, sometimes awful, with the good!
I agree 100% with you on Smart, he hurts the team at times just as much as he helps them at times. If he just would understand his role he would be a much better player. He has to stop thinking he's an offensive player he simply isn't. Doesn't shoot well enough to be that. Poor shot selection as well.
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Smart may not be a great shooter...but the grit he brought tonight was fantastic. He's not the best Celtic on the floor but he wins the grit award every single night. My favorite play was when he dove over Lebron on the ground and yanked the ball out of his hands in the process. Also the block on Lebron was awesome, especially giving up so much size....
Since we are sticking Marcus Smart into a thread about how well Rozier and Brown played> What about the 2nd quarter when Marcus's horrible shot selection, trying to be the hero, blew our lead and put us in a hole?
Marcus needs less grit and more smarts!
I don't know what it is with you guys who drink the Marcus kool-aid - you need to acknowledge that with Marcus you get the bad, sometimes awful, with the good!
It's not kool - aid, its real. When he steps on the floor everybody becomes a defender, they know the 50/50 balls are theirs, the hustle, the assists. Should I keep going? I agree on shot selection, please Marcus, only when the shot clock is winding down. Keep the threes in your pocket. Come signing time, I pay him.
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So we're not benching a small forward who may not perform back at his previous all star levels for a few games to gauge where he is with two youngsters that may very well be all stars next year because he makes max money? Some sound logic you guys have there, I guess Hondo should have never been a 6th man.
I don't agree with the reasoning that because he's a max guy, he should start. We've seen star players come off the bench (from Hondo, to McHale, to Ginobli), so that doesn't really stand up.
However, I think Hayward should start due to the way he actually plays the game. He's an elite facilitator on the wing, which is something both Tatum and Brown aren't good at (at the moment). He's a great shooter from deep, good and versatile defender - much stronger than Brown - and incredibly consistent. I think he'd be the perfect guy next to our two youngsters.
I'm sure Brad will figure it out. It's a very good problem to have
Brown is your 2 guard.
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I love our young guys, but neither is ready to beat out a veteran who was an all star in the loaded western conference. He carried a team to the playoffs, proved he can go out and get 20-25 almost every night. Neither of our young forwards has proven themselves ready to do that.
Umm, isn't that exactly what they have proven?
Not really
Um yes they have, by leading their teams in scoring consistently while winning more playoff games in a single run than Hayward has ever done in his whole career.
Yeah, and they're still provably worse than Hayward. Next
Not so sure about that after an offseason of work+improvement.
Well he’s a better scorer, rebounder, passer and ball-handler than both of them, and a better defender than Tatum, so I’d be very surprised if they both eclipse him
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So we're not benching a small forward who may not perform back at his previous all star levels for a few games to gauge where he is with two youngsters that may very well be all stars next year because he makes max money? Some sound logic you guys have there, I guess Hondo should have never been a 6th man.
I don't agree with the reasoning that because he's a max guy, he should start. We've seen star players come off the bench (from Hondo, to McHale, to Ginobli), so that doesn't really stand up.
However, I think Hayward should start due to the way he actually plays the game. He's an elite facilitator on the wing, which is something both Tatum and Brown aren't good at (at the moment). He's a great shooter from deep, good and versatile defender - much stronger than Brown Tatum - and incredibly consistent. I think he'd be the perfect guy next to our two youngsters.
I'm sure Brad will figure it out. It's a very good problem to have
Brown is your 2 guard.
Fixed that. Either way, I think Hayward fits next to Brown and JT like a glove
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So we're not benching a small forward who may not perform back at his previous all star levels for a few games to gauge where he is with two youngsters that may very well be all stars next year because he makes max money? Some sound logic you guys have there, I guess Hondo should have never been a 6th man.
I think it's clear that if Hayward comes back and is obviously a lesser player, then they will make a change. Ainge wants to win a championship, he's not going to let pride get in the way of that. The issue is whether the Celts should consider making Hayward a sixth man from the get go, like was done with Hondo.
I think there is no chance of that, nor do I think it is a good idea. People like to look back at Hondo's hall of fame career and say that he was willing to come off the bench. They conveniently leave out, however, that he came off the bench at the beginning of his career when the Celts were a championship dynasty with hall of famers on the roster. Yes, this went on for a few years, but again, the Celts were already winning championships as constructed, so it was wise not to mess with that.
The current Celts are still trying to construct a championship roster. Offense is still an issue for this team. To me, if Hayward is close to 100% then it is a no-brainer that he should start. He's their second best offensive player, a very good defender, and fits well into the team offense as he does not need to have the ball in his hands to be effective. I acknowledge that it is tough to ask a max player to come off the bench, but that's not the reason I think he should start. He should start because he's arguably the best player on the team. Kyrie is a better scorer, but Hayward is a far better defender and so overall may be their best player.
The only major benefit from bringing him off the bench is adding scoring to the second unit. But this can easily be addressed with the right substitutions. They can easily stagger their lineups so that you almost always have two of Kyrie, Hayward, Brown, Tatum, or Horford on the floor. There simply isn't any reason not to start Hayward.
One last word on Hondo. Yes it worked with him as sixth man. This situation is totally different. It's a different league. It's a different Celtics team. Hayward is the vet, not the young guy. A better analogy for the Hondo situation would be for Tatum to come off the bench, although I don't think that's a good idea either. Put the best five out there. I know that teams don't always do that, but in the Celts situation I think that is the right move.
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I don't think the consideration of Rozier v. Irving is as simple a question as "who is a better player?" The real question Ainge has to answer is which player makes the C's better and more functional as a team. This is a much more difficult question to answer, and I think that Ainge is weighing some of the following considerations while recognizing that Irving is a far superior individual player:
- Kyrie is a more ball dominant point guard than Rozier, so much so that the C's struggled mightily without him in stretches early in the season, only finally putting it together once forced to play without him. In other words, Irving wasn't plug-and-play with a system. In fact, the C's playing style was heavily dependent upon him for much of the season - perhaps too much so. With the ascendence of Tatum and Brown and the return of Hayward, will Irving buy into egalitarian basketball and be able to be the distributor or deferrer that he will need to be at times to maximize the C's success? This is an unknown with Irving and a known with Rozier.
- How much will the Cs lose defensively with Irving? The elite combination of defenders in next year's starting 5 with Rozier is downright scary. Should a decision between Rozier and Irving be made in this off-season, the C's could boast a starting five of Rozier/Brown/Hayward/Tatum/Horford with Smart/Bird/Ojeyle/Morris/Baynes/Theis off the bench. That defensive team could border on all-time great with no weak links on D and incredible offensive capability.
- Choosing Rozier's contract over Irving's makes that roster possible over the long-term. Irving's contract likely means 2 of Smart/Rozier/Morris/Baynes are gone.
- An Irving trade returns more assets than a Rozier trade. The lineup above could add a key big via draft or trade that would strengthen the C's roster. The biggest challenge there is constructing a deal that maximizes Kyrie's value (i.e. it may take a third team to make sure he will resign at his destination).
- While Ainge has shown a certain sense of detachment when it comes to transactions (see Thomas, Isaiah), he very much appears to have a disproportionate affinity for Rozier. I don't usually consider Ainge to be emotional in his decision-making, but I haven't seen him be so protective and show such favoritism to a player. Perhaps it was just that he saw this potential in Rozier, so he was way more protective of him during Rozier's development and it will change now that more people see it. Maybe, but I sense that Rozier is his guy. It has to be difficult to detach from a pick that was widely criticized as a reach once the pick justifies the selection (and Ainge is human).
Not to say that these considerations compel Ainge to move Irving but rather to argue that this isn't a simple decision. On the "keep Irving" side of the ledger are jersey sales, minimizing ripples internally (it's easier to justify trading Rozier to get him a starting job than it is to trade Irving in a Wally Pipp/Drew Bledsoe scenario where Rozier hasn't quite Gehriged or Bradied this season), and having a more proven cold-blooded killer on the floor late in games.
I don't envy Ainge, but it is a good position to be in. If he doesn't float some scenarios this summer, he won't be doing his job.
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As long as Gordon Hayward is still Gordon Hayward, I don't see any reason not to start him. His game should only help Brown and Tatum. Assuming Tatum gained some weight, I'm not sure any team I can recall has ever started three wings that good, that big, and that interchangeable. Durant, Thompson and Green are great, but they aren't quick enough to cover some wings.
Each of them can defend bigger and smaller players, and they would be just as impressive on offense. Hayward can really pass and make decisions, so it would be fun to see.
It is more of a worry how Kyrie will adjust to the new structure of this team. However, Ainge can take this cold blooded thing too far. We still need to sign players, and we still want them to trust the Celtics. Flipping Irving or Hayward so quickly is a bit much. The IT trade still lingers in the minds of some players. We really don't need to do this too.
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I don't think the consideration of Rozier v. Irving is as simple a question as "who is a better player?" The real question Ainge has to answer is which player makes the C's better and more functional as a team. This is a much more difficult question to answer, and I think that Ainge is weighing some of the following considerations while recognizing that Irving is a far superior individual player:
You make lots of good points here, and I am sure Ainge will look at all possibilities. I do not think, however, there is any chance this comes down to Rozier vs Irving as the starter. The question is Smart vs Rozier for back up pg. I see no way, outside of Irving failing to recover from his surgery, that he is not the starter at PG next season. With respect to Smart vs Rozier, a lot will depend on the market. If the Celts can keep Smart at a number they like, I think they will resign him and then think about what to do with Rozier. If they Smart gets too much money in free agency, then they will hang on to Rozier and deal with him next off season.
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You make lots of good points here, and I am sure Ainge will look at all possibilities. I do not think, however, there is any chance this comes down to Rozier vs Irving as the starter. The question is Smart vs Rozier for back up pg. I see no way, outside of Irving failing to recover from his surgery, that he is not the starter at PG next season. With respect to Smart vs Rozier, a lot will depend on the market. If the Celts can keep Smart at a number they like, I think they will resign him and then think about what to do with Rozier. If they Smart gets too much money in free agency, then they will hang on to Rozier and deal with him next off season.
I don't think Rozier and Smart are competing for the same role or the same dollars.
Smart is sitting in his most advantageous position in this league - a hard-nosed, energy player for a team that is flexible enough to accept his foibles. If he's clamoring for a starting position, it is likely with a team that is in the lottery or competing for an eight-seed. Smart is going to be in a position to choose between paycheck and quality of workplace. If the Cs opt for Rozier over Irving, the ability to keep Smart and grow the C's in a sustainable manner (i.e. develop youngsters as veterans move towards lower paydays) increases. If the C's keep Irving, Rozier is gone and the C's likely have to decide between Smart and the sustainable building path over the long-term.
Rozier is competing directly with Irving for role and dollars. Rozier is capable of a starting position and starter's money and won't necessarily need to choose between salary and being in a winning situation. If the Cs keep Rozier, they can construct their roster for the long-term and keep Smart. If they keep Irving, it is possible both Rozier and Smart could be gone.
I think it is likely Ainge weighs the return he can get for Rozier or Irving and looks at the role his bevy of draft assets could perform in replacing Rozier and Smart should he see Irving as the best fit. I just see there being too much salary overlap between Irving, Hayward, Brown, and Tatum once Irving is extended and Brown and Tatum's deals come up to sustain the championship run this team could have.
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You make lots of good points here, and I am sure Ainge will look at all possibilities. I do not think, however, there is any chance this comes down to Rozier vs Irving as the starter. The question is Smart vs Rozier for back up pg. I see no way, outside of Irving failing to recover from his surgery, that he is not the starter at PG next season. With respect to Smart vs Rozier, a lot will depend on the market. If the Celts can keep Smart at a number they like, I think they will resign him and then think about what to do with Rozier. If they Smart gets too much money in free agency, then they will hang on to Rozier and deal with him next off season.
I don't think Rozier and Smart are competing for the same role or the same dollars.
Smart is sitting in his most advantageous position in this league - a hard-nosed, energy player for a team that is flexible enough to accept his foibles. If he's clamoring for a starting position, it is likely with a team that is in the lottery or competing for an eight-seed. Smart is going to be in a position to choose between paycheck and quality of workplace. If the Cs opt for Rozier over Irving, the ability to keep Smart and grow the C's in a sustainable manner (i.e. develop youngsters as veterans move towards lower paydays) increases. If the C's keep Irving, Rozier is gone and the C's likely have to decide between Smart and the sustainable building path over the long-term.
Rozier is competing directly with Irving for role and dollars. Rozier is capable of a starting position and starter's money and won't necessarily need to choose between salary and being in a winning situation. If the Cs keep Rozier, they can construct their roster for the long-term and keep Smart. If they keep Irving, it is possible both Rozier and Smart could be gone.
I think it is likely Ainge weighs the return he can get for Rozier or Irving and looks at the role his bevy of draft assets could perform in replacing Rozier and Smart should he see Irving as the best fit. I just see there being too much salary overlap between Irving, Hayward, Brown, and Tatum once Irving is extended and Brown and Tatum's deals come up to sustain the championship run this team could have.
Rozier is not competing against Irving, period! Rozier is where he is because he learned from Irving - he knows it, Brad knows it and Danny knows it, even Marcus knows it. The question is who backs-up, plays alongside (when others are injured) and provides insurance for Irving--Rozier or Smart. Before Smart punched a mirror it was a coin toss --but I believe Terry has emerged as running the team's offense better on average than Marcus, and is more coachable. But they have different strengths and Danny will try to keep both with the market dictating if that is possible. First up is Marcus this summer.