Bradley Beal trade idea Yaay or Nay?

[Alleyoopster]

Fixed the title. As many said, this is not a rumor.

Just not sure that Beal will be so much better than Brown next year that Smart, Langford and a host of 1st rounders, including the Memphis pick, is worth giving up along with Brown to complete the deal.

Generally a bad idea, especially since I see Jaylen eventually turning into a 20/7/3 with shooting of 47/39/77 and a TS% around 60% with All-Defense level defense type of player in a couple years. If Brown does become that, even on a max(25% of the cap, starting at $28 million per year), he would be a much better value than what Beal would need to be paid(starting around $40 million per or even higher and closer to $50 million, if he makes an All-NBA team).

That's the problem, Brown has yet to reach the level you think he can reach.

Is it possible Brown will never reach that level?
Answer: Yes!

Right now Bradley Beal has a playoff career average of 22.7 ppg.
That means he's a sure thing.

Not only is Beal getting it done in the regular season, he's also getting it done in the playoffs.

And Bradley Beal is very good on defense.

Also, if Ainge really believes Brown can become the 20/7/3 with shooting of 47/39/77 player you're talking about, why is the Celts not offering a contract extension for Brown?

He may be seeking a lot of money which would put them over the salary cap. In turn might preclude them from signing other players of better value or greater need. 

[Moranis]

I don't even think Kemba is a 1 (at least on a real contender).

As always, they aren't until they are. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Does the player make the championship team or the championship team make the player?

There are examples of championship contenders with less effective primary offensive players than Walker. They may be the exceptions, but the category for them exists.

This team, as constructed, will undoubtedly need to make strides forward. Walker will need to step forward in efficiency. Hayward will need to step forward to his Utah days ability. Tatum and Brown will need to become better engines for this team. Our bigs need to develop.

As they performed last year, these players aren't probably effective enough to be real contenders. But these players have the ability to grow and develop better rhythm together. In fact, I think it's more likely than not that they do, regardless of the road bump last year.

Kemba has been in the league long enough to know he is not the best player on a championship team type player (he could however be the #1 scoring option, which is not the same thing).  Very much in the Irving tier of player and that just isn't good enough to be that type of player. 

[DefenseWinsChamps]

I don't even think Kemba is a 1 (at least on a real contender).

As always, they aren't until they are. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Does the player make the championship team or the championship team make the player?

There are examples of championship contenders with less effective primary offensive players than Walker. They may be the exceptions, but the category for them exists.

This team, as constructed, will undoubtedly need to make strides forward. Walker will need to step forward in efficiency. Hayward will need to step forward to his Utah days ability. Tatum and Brown will need to become better engines for this team. Our bigs need to develop.

As they performed last year, these players aren't probably effective enough to be real contenders. But these players have the ability to grow and develop better rhythm together. In fact, I think it's more likely than not that they do, regardless of the road bump last year.

Kemba has been in the league long enough to know he is not the best player on a championship team type player (he could however be the #1 scoring option, which is not the same thing).  Very much in the Irving tier of player and that just isn't good enough to be that type of player.

I don't really know what you mean. It seems like you are arguing semantics. If the question is whether or not our team as constructed can be a contender with growth from our young players, Hayward getting back to normal, and the usual bump in efficiency for Brad Stevens point guards, then yes. Whose the best player on that team? I don't really know or care.

[Moranis]

I don't even think Kemba is a 1 (at least on a real contender).

As always, they aren't until they are. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Does the player make the championship team or the championship team make the player?

There are examples of championship contenders with less effective primary offensive players than Walker. They may be the exceptions, but the category for them exists.

This team, as constructed, will undoubtedly need to make strides forward. Walker will need to step forward in efficiency. Hayward will need to step forward to his Utah days ability. Tatum and Brown will need to become better engines for this team. Our bigs need to develop.

As they performed last year, these players aren't probably effective enough to be real contenders. But these players have the ability to grow and develop better rhythm together. In fact, I think it's more likely than not that they do, regardless of the road bump last year.

Kemba has been in the league long enough to know he is not the best player on a championship team type player (he could however be the #1 scoring option, which is not the same thing).  Very much in the Irving tier of player and that just isn't good enough to be that type of player.

I don't really know what you mean. It seems like you are arguing semantics. If the question is whether or not our team as constructed can be a contender with growth from our young players, Hayward getting back to normal, and the usual bump in efficiency for Brad Stevens point guards, then yes. Whose the best player on that team? I don't really know or care.

I'm saying that Kemba Walker is not a good enough player to be the best player on a title team i.e. a 1.  The post I originally responded to (which you cut out) implied that he was.  That is what I was disagreeing with. 

[bellerephon]

I don't even think Kemba is a 1 (at least on a real contender).

As always, they aren't until they are. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Does the player make the championship team or the championship team make the player?

There are examples of championship contenders with less effective primary offensive players than Walker. They may be the exceptions, but the category for them exists.

This team, as constructed, will undoubtedly need to make strides forward. Walker will need to step forward in efficiency. Hayward will need to step forward to his Utah days ability. Tatum and Brown will need to become better engines for this team. Our bigs need to develop.

As they performed last year, these players aren't probably effective enough to be real contenders. But these players have the ability to grow and develop better rhythm together. In fact, I think it's more likely than not that they do, regardless of the road bump last year.

Kemba has been in the league long enough to know he is not the best player on a championship team type player (he could however be the #1 scoring option, which is not the same thing).  Very much in the Irving tier of player and that just isn't good enough to be that type of player.

I seriously doubt he thinks that way. These guys have lots of self confidence, I would bet that Kemba believes he could lead a team to a championship. I also think he could be the best player on a championship team. It would need to be an excellent team top to bottom, with lots of talent and great chemistry. It's not a likely scenario as he's not a top 5 guy, but it's not impossible.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

I'm saying that Kemba Walker is not a good enough player to be the best player on a title team i.e. a 1.  The post I originally responded to (which you cut out) implied that he was.  That is what I was disagreeing with.

I know what said, but I've always found the distinction you are trying to draw to be dubious. Guys who don't appear to be able to be the best players on championship teams have helped their teams win championships in the past. It was said about Spurs, Pistons, and even Curry and the Warriors before their first title. Then we revise history and say they were.

There's no scientific method to determine that. If the Celtics win this year behind Walker as their leading scorer, many (maybe not you, but many) would say he was their best player.

It's just an odd distinction.

My point, again, is that this team has the raw materials to be a championship team if development and chemistry improves.

[nickagneta]

Fixed the title. As many said, this is not a rumor.

Just not sure that Beal will be so much better than Brown next year that Smart, Langford and a host of 1st rounders, including the Memphis pick, is worth giving up along with Brown to complete the deal.

Generally a bad idea, especially since I see Jaylen eventually turning into a 20/7/3 with shooting of 47/39/77 and a TS% around 60% with All-Defense level defense type of player in a couple years. If Brown does become that, even on a max(25% of the cap, starting at $28 million per year), he would be a much better value than what Beal would need to be paid(starting around $40 million per or even higher and closer to $50 million, if he makes an All-NBA team).

That's the problem, Brown has yet to reach the level you think he can reach.

Is it possible Brown will never reach that level?
Answer: Yes!

Right now Bradley Beal has a playoff career average of 22.7 ppg.
That means he's a sure thing.

Not only is Beal getting it done in the regular season, he's also getting it done in the playoffs.

And Bradley Beal is very good on defense.

Also, if Ainge really believes Brown can become the 20/7/3 with shooting of 47/39/77 player you're talking about, why is the Celts not offering a contract extension for Brown?

True, he hasn't reached that but could fairly easily. He has shown that with an expanded offensive role he could be that in a couple years. But if Brown gives you 80% of Beal this year, then the addition of trading Smart, Langford, the Memphis pick and one or two other 1st rounders is just awful for the Celtics.

And I am not sure why Danny not offering an extension means anything other than, Danny doesn't offer extensions. He just doesn't. Let the market determine the price. If Brown takes a step forward with an expanded offensive role, Brown will be well taken care of by Ainge next offseason.

[jambr380]

This proposed deal is Awful with a capital A! All of a sudden, all packages of an All-Star need to be at AD level. Luckily Danny would never make such a deal.

As for how the pieces fit, it also doesn't make sense. You dump our two best defensive players (by far) for yet another guy who needs shots. A line-up of Kemba/Beal/Hayward/Tatum/Kanter is awesome offensively, but not well-balanced at all. We also lose depth in Smart and Langford (along with all of those picks)

[Fierce1]

Fixed the title. As many said, this is not a rumor.

Just not sure that Beal will be so much better than Brown next year that Smart, Langford and a host of 1st rounders, including the Memphis pick, is worth giving up along with Brown to complete the deal.

Generally a bad idea, especially since I see Jaylen eventually turning into a 20/7/3 with shooting of 47/39/77 and a TS% around 60% with All-Defense level defense type of player in a couple years. If Brown does become that, even on a max(25% of the cap, starting at $28 million per year), he would be a much better value than what Beal would need to be paid(starting around $40 million per or even higher and closer to $50 million, if he makes an All-NBA team).

That's the problem, Brown has yet to reach the level you think he can reach.

Is it possible Brown will never reach that level?
Answer: Yes!

Right now Bradley Beal has a playoff career average of 22.7 ppg.
That means he's a sure thing.

Not only is Beal getting it done in the regular season, he's also getting it done in the playoffs.

And Bradley Beal is very good on defense.

Also, if Ainge really believes Brown can become the 20/7/3 with shooting of 47/39/77 player you're talking about, why is the Celts not offering a contract extension for Brown?

True, he hasn't reached that but could fairly easily. He has shown that with an expanded offensive role he could be that in a couple years. But if Brown gives you 80% of Beal this year, then the addition of trading Smart, Langford, the Memphis pick and one or two other 1st rounders is just awful for the Celtics.

And I am not sure why Danny not offering an extension means anything other than, Danny doesn't offer extensions. He just doesn't. Let the market determine the price. If Brown takes a step forward with an expanded offensive role, Brown will be well taken care of by Ainge next offseason.

The trade proposal is too much.

Celts can offer Smart, Brown, Theis, and a pick in December.

Brown has until December, January, or February to prove he deserves to remain a Celtic.

Regarding the extension, if Brown is a sure thing then Ainge will offer an extension.
It's true Ainge usually doesn't offer extensions.
But if the Celts truly believe Brown is special, offering him an extension should not be an issue.

Also, it's a good thing the Wiz don't want to trade Beal right now.
It gives the Celts more time to evaluate Jaylen Brown.
If Brown can average 18 to 20 points per game from October to December then he's a keeper.
But if Brown remains erratic then Celts should trade him before the season is over.

[Fierce1]

This proposed deal is Awful with a capital A! All of a sudden, all packages of an All-Star need to be at AD level. Luckily Danny would never make such a deal.

As for how the pieces fit, it also doesn't make sense. You dump our two best defensive players (by far) for yet another guy who needs shots. A line-up of Kemba/Beal/Hayward/Tatum/Kanter is awesome offensively, but not well-balanced at all. We also lose depth in Smart and Langford (along with all of those picks)

Agree.

It's a bad trade.

Celts should only give up Smart, Beal, Theis, and a pick for Beal.

Brown should be given the chance to prove that he's a keeper.

Also, Beal is a two-way player, he's very good on defense.
So it's not sacrificing defense for offense.
Beal is better than Brown on defense right now.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

This proposed deal is Awful with a capital A! All of a sudden, all packages of an All-Star need to be at AD level. Luckily Danny would never make such a deal.

As for how the pieces fit, it also doesn't make sense. You dump our two best defensive players (by far) for yet another guy who needs shots. A line-up of Kemba/Beal/Hayward/Tatum/Kanter is awesome offensively, but not well-balanced at all. We also lose depth in Smart and Langford (along with all of those picks)

Agree.

It's a bad trade.

Celts should only give up Smart, Beal, Theis, and a pick for Beal.

Brown should be given the chance to prove that he's a keeper.

Also, Beal is a two-way player, he's very good on defense.
So it's not sacrificing defense for offense.
Beal is better than Brown on defense right now.

Yeah, there's just no evidence that Beal is a good defender. The eye test and the stats don't back that up. He's been a sieve for a few years.

[Diggles]

Depends on what we do....

Would a starting five of this

Kemba
Beal
Hayward
Tatum
Kanter

Be better than this below
vs

Kemba
Brown
Hayward
Tatum
Kanter

Be worth Smart, Brown and other assets.   I'm not so sure.  I'd have to pass.   

[Celtics4ever]

Nay, we already have an good guard in Kemba that can hit shots and would rather see us get quality young big.

[nickagneta]

Fixed the title. As many said, this is not a rumor.

Just not sure that Beal will be so much better than Brown next year that Smart, Langford and a host of 1st rounders, including the Memphis pick, is worth giving up along with Brown to complete the deal.

Generally a bad idea, especially since I see Jaylen eventually turning into a 20/7/3 with shooting of 47/39/77 and a TS% around 60% with All-Defense level defense type of player in a couple years. If Brown does become that, even on a max(25% of the cap, starting at $28 million per year), he would be a much better value than what Beal would need to be paid(starting around $40 million per or even higher and closer to $50 million, if he makes an All-NBA team).

That's the problem, Brown has yet to reach the level you think he can reach.

Is it possible Brown will never reach that level?
Answer: Yes!

Right now Bradley Beal has a playoff career average of 22.7 ppg.
That means he's a sure thing.

Not only is Beal getting it done in the regular season, he's also getting it done in the playoffs.

And Bradley Beal is very good on defense.

Also, if Ainge really believes Brown can become the 20/7/3 with shooting of 47/39/77 player you're talking about, why is the Celts not offering a contract extension for Brown?

True, he hasn't reached that but could fairly easily. He has shown that with an expanded offensive role he could be that in a couple years. But if Brown gives you 80% of Beal this year, then the addition of trading Smart, Langford, the Memphis pick and one or two other 1st rounders is just awful for the Celtics.

And I am not sure why Danny not offering an extension means anything other than, Danny doesn't offer extensions. He just doesn't. Let the market determine the price. If Brown takes a step forward with an expanded offensive role, Brown will be well taken care of by Ainge next offseason.

The trade proposal is too much.

Celts can offer Smart, Brown, Theis, and a pick in December.

Brown has until December, January, or February to prove he deserves to remain a Celtic.

Regarding the extension, if Brown is a sure thing then Ainge will offer an extension.
It's true Ainge usually doesn't offer extensions.
But if the Celts truly believe Brown is special, offering him an extension should not be an issue.

Also, it's a good thing the Wiz don't want to trade Beal right now.
It gives the Celts more time to evaluate Jaylen Brown.
If Brown can average 18 to 20 points per game from October to December then he's a keeper.
But if Brown remains erratic then Celts should trade him before the season is over.

Really? Brown has until December to be averaging 18-20 or that's it, he isn't worth keeping long term? You are like the third person on this forum I have seen this from and it boggles the mind that you three can have such black and white/absolutely definitive views on this, like it's either 100% this or then it has to be 100% something else.

Players develop at different rates and at different times. Some players develop a lot early. Some later. Some develop in short leaps and bounds, some all at once, some gradually over a decade.

And that development needs context. Is it really all Tatum's and Brown's fault they didn't develop to expectations last year? Should that be considered in evaluating their long term development, that last year's environment wasn't conducive to developing youth?

See, context, shades of grey, no absolutes, it makes a difference, IMHO. Ainge doesn't do extensions but that doesn't mean he doesn't love a player or doesn't have long term plans for the player. I am not sure there is anything to read into how the team feels about Brown from their decision not to offer an extension.

The team loved Smart. He didn't make an All-Star team or average 18-20 PPG. No extension. But they re-signed him at a fair price and he will be here a while, most likely.

[Sketch5]

Depends on what we do....

Would a starting five of this

Kemba
Beal
Hayward
Tatum
Kanter

Be better than this below
vs

Kemba
Brown
Hayward
Tatum
Kanter

Be worth Smart, Brown and other assets.   I'm not so sure.  I'd have to pass.

I'm not really sure that first team is really better than the second team. If Hayward get to 90% Utah Hayward we have plenty of scoring. To have two guys who are use to having the ball and scoring 25ppg, then Hayward who been around 20ppg and Tatum who will be trying to get to that mark, plus Kanter who's going to put up about 15ppg, who's going to give up shots? Plus I'd rather have Brown next to Kemba for Defensive purposes.

Then giving up Smart and Langford too hurts our depth, especially if some one gets hurt. Smart can cover for Kemba and Brown, and if Lanford's learning curve is as good as Brown and Tatums have been, he can cover Kemba/Brown/Hayward.

I'm not sure who DA is looking at, if Hayward can play the 2, I can see Brown and Timelord being shipped for a 4, but not sure after the injury if he will be able to long term.