Author Topic: New expectations for Rondo?  (Read 12565 times)

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Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #45 on: November 28, 2008, 06:05:45 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Rondo, young player who still has holes in his games has his ups and downs in his third year.


Still good enough to be the starting PG for a championship team.

Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #46 on: November 28, 2008, 06:17:39 PM »

Offline rondilla

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The problem with Rondo, first and foremost, at the beginning of this season was that we ran an offense which continually took the ball out of his hands. That four game stretch was bad, and I think his groin pull and elbow injury didn't help, but it was the basic nature of our offense which was the main culprit. Personally, I think that Garnett's suspension was a blessing in that it forced Doc to actually give the kid the ball, and he came through for us. To Doc's credit he actually kept on giving Rondo the ball, and the kid kept on performing.

The talk of "aggressiveness" is misguided, IMO. How could Rondo be "aggressive" when he didn't have real control over the offense. Game after game he was dribbling down and handing off to Paul and Ray. They ran the offense, and they did not do a good job of it. Most possessions Rondo never touched the ball after he brought it up. We played 4 on 5 basketball BY DESIGN. We actually were the 27th ranked offense in the league 11 games into the season, efficiency-wise. Five games later - five games where Rondo actuially ran the offense - we are 14th. Pretty steep climb to say the least.

I just did a quick calculation regarding Rondo's PER over the last five games. It was about 13.7 after 11 games, and it is up to 17.85. To play 11 games at a 13.7 average and get it up to 17.85 in 5 means that Rondo's PER over these last 5 was approximately 27.0.  That is a very, very high PER and a huge one for a point guard. The main reason that he has that is he actually has had the ball in his hands the last 5 games. It has made a big difference. Mind you that he has not dominated the ball, he simply hasn't be forced to give it up almost every time down, and has actually had it passed back to him when he does pass it off. It is alot easier to be "aggressive" when things like that are happening.

Do I think that Rondo will keep this up at this level? I doubt it, but I do think that he can stay fairly close to it. I also think that the PER's of Paul, Ray and Kevin will also go up as a result. The beautiful part about all of this is that Rondo is a true point guard. Getting him the ball means that he will get everyone else involved as well. It is what he does. His defense is also a huge factor for us, and that really isn't related by his PER. Steals count, but Rondo'd defense goes beyond just getting those.

Doc actually thought that his "offensive lineup" was the one with House at the point - a spot up shooter. It turned out that it was the one with Rondo - with Rondo actually running it. Hey, it's better late than never that Doc learned this.

It seemed to me Rondo was the problem early on, not the system. He refused to shoot. He also got injured for a few days. Perhaps that hurt his confidence.

Rondo was not being forced to give up the ball. He was the one choosing not to be aggressive.

So us starting games off by having Rondo bring the ball down for the firts 8 minutes of a game, and either give it to Pierce and Ray was just Rondo "not being aggressive", and not Doc's real plan? I actually make a point of counting how many picks are set for the kid, and quite often he wouldn't see one until we were 8 minutes into a game. Now if Doc didn't want that to happen he could always say during a timeout "OK, we're going pick and roll with Rondo for the next 5 or 6 possessions", that is his prerogative. Did that actually happen? Nope... not until the Knick game. Then, to get his "offensive lineup" out there he'd have Eddie at the point... so that the guys who really ran the offense - Pierce and Allen - could have someone to space the floor for them.

Then Garnett gets suspended and, voila, Rondo gets going, and our offensive lineup doesn't include Eddie. It isn't as if that hadn't happened before, as Rondo went bonkers last season when K.G. went down and Doc had to run the offense through Rajon. Unfortunately, when K.G. came back Doc thought "Now my offense will really work wonders". That didn't happen, though, and it was our defense which had to carry us. This time Doc didn't say that, he actually let the kid keep the ball.

I find it interesting how people could talk of Ray's struggles last season having to do with his being taken out of his comfort zone. That he wasn't used to being a spot up shooter and was more comfortable shooting off the dribble, yet many of the same people think using a guy like Rondo as a spot up shooter was acceptable. It was not. The kid needs the ball, like most point guards do. He is getting the ball now, and has broken out as a result. Has this hurt his teammates? With the exception of Pierce, I would say no. Ray, K.G. and Perk are all playing better as a result. Paul seems to be coming around, though he still is forcing things a bit.... because he has been taken out of his comfort zone. Rondo has the ball more, so he has the ball less. The offense as a whole has been fanastic, so Paul will just have to adjust. Once he does, he'll be the better for it.

Has the system been radically altered to do this? Absolutely not. It was simply a matter of running more of Rondo's stuff and less of the other things. It needed to be done, and the benefits are obvious. We have actually won a couple of games where our defense did not win it for us. How often did that happen last season?
As big of a Rondo fan and schill as I am, and I am one, even I have to admit that Rondo's 4 game slump had nothing to do with the system or schemes being run and had everything to do with Rondo's performance and decision making. Rondo shot 5 for 25 (20%) from the field and I am sure if I went back and counted the amount of times he passed up on layups to pass out of the paint for an outside shot or other option I will find a great, great many of occurances where that happened.

Sorry, but Rondo is not going to have a ton of plays called for him where picks are being set up to free him up. He is this team's fourth offensive option. Fourth. His job is to facilitate, score on the fast break as an outlet on steals, and hit the mid range jumper when left open due to excellent defense elsewhere. When the mismatch is there he needs to take advantage of it and get a bit selfish then because that mismatch elevates him from fourth scoring option to first or second.

When used in the above manner and Rondo is making the right decisions about where and when to strike and when to finish and when not to he is a weapon. When hesitant as he was in that four game stretch and for various other games this early season, he has a less than stellar effect on this team. When knowing he has the mismatch, he takes advantage of it and yet still creates for others while scoring off his defense, he is a weapon. An All-Star caliber weapon, which is what he has been the last 5 games.

I could be wrong about this, but I think that you have been watching this team too long and misunderstand how a guy like Rondo should be used. A good example of how to do it is how Popovich has used Parker from his rookie season on. Setting picks for Parker, as with Rondo, is a mismatch in itself. Stopping them from getting into the paint is easier said than done, and "going under the pick" isn't a reliable way of effecting that. The only way to consistently stop them from doing so is to switch, but that opens up a whole other can of worms.

It has taken Doc a long time to figure this out. He drove Darrell Armstrong crazy with his wing run offense in Orlando, and Gary Payton usually ignored him when he was here. Doc's ideal offense was run by the wings, with the point guard being used as a spot up shooter. Why do think that he actually thought that Eddie House was a better fit in it than a real point guard? It isn't as if he just started doing that when he got here, or started doing it when Ray joined Paul - he tried to have Ricky run it, and even Wally. His track record of having troubles with his point guards has revolved around this issue.

Ray and Paul are good playmakers for wings, but they are not on Rondo's level. Not even close. They do not have his handle, his speed, his court vision or his passing ability. We were dead last in turnovers (still are actually, that's how many we had). Over these past 5 games we are only averaging 14.4 (18th fewest in the league), and that is with the second unit and the end of the bench throwing the ball all over the place in the fourth quarters of our blowout wins! What is the reason behind this? Rondo running the offense, not watching others cough it up while he watches from the weakside. He simply has the ball in his hands more. Not dominating it, just controlling where it goes.

The crazy part is that his teammates are actually not used to playing off of him yet. Paul, K.G. and Perk have had a lot of "Holy ----, I'm wide open" moments over these last 5 games. In complete shock that they have such an easy look at the basket. Rondo is freestyling out there making something out of nothing, and they are still plugged into the mechanical offense we were running before "I pass it to you, then you pass it to him, then he passes it to this guy, then this guy passes it to that guy, and then if everything works out OK I get it back here and maybe I'm open."

I think that K.G. has been unnerved by how wide open he is getting on jumpers via Rondo. He's used to a hand being in his face. He'll get over that. Rondo is hitting Perk wide open underneath, but Perk isn't anticipating the pass. He catches it, THEN he steps in, THEN he gathers himself (bringing his hands down in the process), and THEN he tries to dunk it- all of which allows the defense a chance to recover. Once he gets used to it, he'll be stepping into the pass and dunking it, or laying it up, much more quickly. He's getting Paul wide open looks from the top of the arc where he can either shoot a three or straight-line drive right down the middle of the lane. Paul is not used to this. The only guy who is actually already comfortable is Ray, because playing like this just feeds into his game and he's done it before.

If we keep on playing this way the best is yet to come, and it was not just a matter of Rondo being "more aggressive". You cannot use a player any which way you feel like and then reasonably expect good results. More so, a guy like Rondo has a fundamental unbderstanding of where the ball is supposed to go. Paul and Ray do not. They are good passers for their positions, but any offense needs to have someone at the wheel in CONTROL of what is happening out there. When Rondo was coming down ,on possession after possession, passing it off to them he did not have that control. It makes a big difference when he does.
Is this 2008? I still feel like I'm reading a post from 2006 or 2007, when everything that you're saying would make sense (although it still wouldn't be true). The other players aren't used to playing with Rondo yet? KG and Pierce have to adjust to being so wide open because of Rondo? ::) Give me a freakin' break! I love Rondo as much as the next guy - I have a long history of defending him against Delonte West fanatics and others, but your love for Rondo is even making me sick.

They aren't used to playing OFF of Rondo yet. Different words have different meanings. This team is not used to playing off of their point guard. They are used to Doc's offense, which was being initiated mostly by Paul and Ray, and not all that much by Rondo. When the point guard is dribbling the ball down the court and then handing off to someone else, he is not "initiating the offense", unless it is a dribble handoff, like that picket fence play they have been running for Paul and Ray the last few games (which I really like).

One play which really stuck in my mind from last season, during that 9 game stretch where K.G. was out, involved a Rondo/Pierce pick and roll. Paul set the pick for Rondo, and BOTH defenders went with Rondo as he drove to the basket. So what does the kid do? Passes the ball back to Paul who is wide open at the free throw line. Paul was shocked that he was actually standing all by himself with the ball at the free throw line. He didn't know what to do. The defense just stood there looking at him, making no attempt to step out on him (they had collapsed on Rondo because he was torching them). Paul first thought about shooting it, then stepped forward to pass it, or maybe he was hoping that someone would step out on him so that he could drive, then he finally stepped back to shoot it. Unfortunately, he had lifted his pivot foot and got called for travelling.... all while not having a defender within 10 feet of him. It wasn't as if this happened quickly, either. Paul simply wasn't used to being in that position.

This team has to, and WILL, learn to play off of the kid. It is a different experience for them. Rondo is capable of working the defense and delivering passes in a way that the others just are capable of doing. They are getting the ball in very good spots to score, but instead of getting that shot after 5 passes, they are getting it with one pass, and they are also unusually wide open. How about that jumper he got K.G. at the end of teh Raptor game. Not only was Kevin open, so was Ray, while teh defense was reacting to the kid. All by themselves.How often has that happened for these guys this season? It takes a little getting used to.

Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #47 on: November 28, 2008, 06:24:54 PM »

Offline Toine43

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So if they are still getting used to playing off of Rondo, then you're saying that for the most part, they did not do so last season. Gee, how did that work out?


I am not a "Rajon Rondo's Career" fan, I am a Boston Celtics fan. And last year Doc underutilized Rondo all the way to a 17th Banner. 


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Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #48 on: November 28, 2008, 06:36:16 PM »

Offline rondilla

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So if they are still getting used to playing off of Rondo, then you're saying that for the most part, they did not do so last season. Gee, how did that work out?


I am not a "Rajon Rondo's Career" fan, I am a Boston Celtics fan. And last year Doc underutilized Rondo all the way to a 17th Banner. 

They generally lost games in which Rondo played poorly, offensively, and generally won games in which he played well. This way he plays well most of the time, and they win most of the games.

By the way, if you think we won last season because of our offense, you are kidding yourself. It was our defense which carried us. Our offense was very unreliable at best. Apples and oranges, dude.

Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #49 on: November 28, 2008, 07:00:16 PM »

Offline Binky-King

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The problem with Rondo, first and foremost, at the beginning of this season was that we ran an offense which continually took the ball out of his hands. That four game stretch was bad, and I think his groin pull and elbow injury didn't help, but it was the basic nature of our offense which was the main culprit. Personally, I think that Garnett's suspension was a blessing in that it forced Doc to actually give the kid the ball, and he came through for us. To Doc's credit he actually kept on giving Rondo the ball, and the kid kept on performing.

The talk of "aggressiveness" is misguided, IMO. How could Rondo be "aggressive" when he didn't have real control over the offense. Game after game he was dribbling down and handing off to Paul and Ray. They ran the offense, and they did not do a good job of it. Most possessions Rondo never touched the ball after he brought it up. We played 4 on 5 basketball BY DESIGN. We actually were the 27th ranked offense in the league 11 games into the season, efficiency-wise. Five games later - five games where Rondo actuially ran the offense - we are 14th. Pretty steep climb to say the least.

I just did a quick calculation regarding Rondo's PER over the last five games. It was about 13.7 after 11 games, and it is up to 17.85. To play 11 games at a 13.7 average and get it up to 17.85 in 5 means that Rondo's PER over these last 5 was approximately 27.0.  That is a very, very high PER and a huge one for a point guard. The main reason that he has that is he actually has had the ball in his hands the last 5 games. It has made a big difference. Mind you that he has not dominated the ball, he simply hasn't be forced to give it up almost every time down, and has actually had it passed back to him when he does pass it off. It is alot easier to be "aggressive" when things like that are happening.

Do I think that Rondo will keep this up at this level? I doubt it, but I do think that he can stay fairly close to it. I also think that the PER's of Paul, Ray and Kevin will also go up as a result. The beautiful part about all of this is that Rondo is a true point guard. Getting him the ball means that he will get everyone else involved as well. It is what he does. His defense is also a huge factor for us, and that really isn't related by his PER. Steals count, but Rondo'd defense goes beyond just getting those.

Doc actually thought that his "offensive lineup" was the one with House at the point - a spot up shooter. It turned out that it was the one with Rondo - with Rondo actually running it. Hey, it's better late than never that Doc learned this.

It seemed to me Rondo was the problem early on, not the system. He refused to shoot. He also got injured for a few days. Perhaps that hurt his confidence.

Rondo was not being forced to give up the ball. He was the one choosing not to be aggressive.

So us starting games off by having Rondo bring the ball down for the firts 8 minutes of a game, and either give it to Pierce and Ray was just Rondo "not being aggressive", and not Doc's real plan? I actually make a point of counting how many picks are set for the kid, and quite often he wouldn't see one until we were 8 minutes into a game. Now if Doc didn't want that to happen he could always say during a timeout "OK, we're going pick and roll with Rondo for the next 5 or 6 possessions", that is his prerogative. Did that actually happen? Nope... not until the Knick game. Then, to get his "offensive lineup" out there he'd have Eddie at the point... so that the guys who really ran the offense - Pierce and Allen - could have someone to space the floor for them.

Then Garnett gets suspended and, voila, Rondo gets going, and our offensive lineup doesn't include Eddie. It isn't as if that hadn't happened before, as Rondo went bonkers last season when K.G. went down and Doc had to run the offense through Rajon. Unfortunately, when K.G. came back Doc thought "Now my offense will really work wonders". That didn't happen, though, and it was our defense which had to carry us. This time Doc didn't say that, he actually let the kid keep the ball.

I find it interesting how people could talk of Ray's struggles last season having to do with his being taken out of his comfort zone. That he wasn't used to being a spot up shooter and was more comfortable shooting off the dribble, yet many of the same people think using a guy like Rondo as a spot up shooter was acceptable. It was not. The kid needs the ball, like most point guards do. He is getting the ball now, and has broken out as a result. Has this hurt his teammates? With the exception of Pierce, I would say no. Ray, K.G. and Perk are all playing better as a result. Paul seems to be coming around, though he still is forcing things a bit.... because he has been taken out of his comfort zone. Rondo has the ball more, so he has the ball less. The offense as a whole has been fanastic, so Paul will just have to adjust. Once he does, he'll be the better for it.

Has the system been radically altered to do this? Absolutely not. It was simply a matter of running more of Rondo's stuff and less of the other things. It needed to be done, and the benefits are obvious. We have actually won a couple of games where our defense did not win it for us. How often did that happen last season?
Rondilla, the debate about how much Rondo's performance is affected by Doc has been raging ever since Rondo's rookie season. Perhaps the argument you're using may have made sense 2 years ago, or even last year, but at this point I think your argument has run its course. Do you honestly think that after coaching Rondo for 2 full seasons, and winning an NBA Championship with Rondo as his point guard, that Doc still doesn't know how to use him properly? It can be tough to quantify if the the offense is or isn't being run through someone, but I know what I saw with Rondo during his slump. He just wasn't aggresive enough. Forget about how many times Rondo dribbled down the floor and immediately dished it off to Pierce or Ray, because we ran our offense that way a lot last year, and we're still going to see that a lot this year. Rondo has his share of possesions when he's the one making the plays, and earlier on in the season he wasn't making the right decisions. It's as simple as that. The decisions Doc makes are going to have an impact on what's happening on the court, I'm not denying that. But the NBA is a players league. The players are the ones you give the credit to in success, and the players are the ones you blame in failure. It's Rondo's responsibility to make the most out of his playing time. If anything, Rondo's sudden transformation proves that his slump had nothing to do with Doc. If Doc's offensive system wasn't "radically altered," then explain how Rondo's radical alteration has anything at all to do with the system. I don't buy that Doc slightly tweaked the gameplan, and that all of a sudden Rondo magically went from Marcus Banks to Chris Paul.

The answer is yes and no. Does Doc know how to use Rondo, and has he known before? Yes. Did Doc WANT to use Rondo that way? No. When K.G. went down last season, he was forced, by necessity, to actually give Rondo the ball more. Remember how well Rajon was playing in that stretch, and how well the team fared even without Garnett? The two games lost (@Cleve,@Orlando) came down to the final minute (the final second in Orlando), and we lost in those places with K.G. We also beat quality teams (Dallas and San Antonio) over that stretch. We came very close to going 9 and 0. That stretch killed K.G.'s MVP chances.

The problem with Doc is that he really likes running his offense through the wing players. It has always been his thing. He believes in that style of basketball. In Doc's perfect offense everyone is a shooter (including the center), and the spacing is perfect, allowing the wings to penetrate and score/playmake. The ball gets passed around a lot, Norman Dale-style. It was a minor miracle that he actually took a liking to Rondo (Doc couldn't stand him at first). The thing is that Rondo just played so hard, was such a good defender, and just made so many things happen that Doc had to play him (not to mention that Danny made sure he was the only point guard on the roster to help Doc along with this decision).

As I said before, the stuff for Rondo was already in the offense. They are just running MORE of that, and LESS of the other stuff. There is also more of an emphasis on getting the ball back to him. Simple. All that had to be donme was to put an emphasis on it. That is what happened last season when Garnett went down.

I have watched these games, and I know what you are talking about. Rondo has been passing up shots, and he wasn't aggressive. The thing is that he was also being asked to play in a way which ran completely counter to what he is about as a player. Paul and Ray were making the decisions for the offense, and they were making poor ones. Quite often they refused to pass the kid the ball, even when he was the ONLY logical choice. His opportunities were limited, and usually when he was shooting he was forcing the shot up. Meanwhile, the offense was being run into the ground.

When your point guard is dribbling the ball up the court and consistently handing the ball off to the wings, and clears off to the weakside, and then doesn't get it back, he has no control over what is happening. That was our offense until 5 games ago. It wasn't working, and when Doc wanted to get the offense going he would put in Eddie. Now Rajon has the ball and is making the decisions. If we run it through Paul or Ray, it is because Rondo is making that call. If he wants to keep it for himself, that is his call as well. Paul and Ray aren't exactly thrilled about this, by the way. If you haven't noticed they have the bad habit of blowing Rondo off in the back court on occassion. They also have the bad habit of completely ruining offensive possessions as a result of this.... and then the ball goes back to Rondo.

Using a player in the wrong way can take away his aggression. I watched Eric Snow criticize the Pistons for the way that they were using A.I. saying, essentially, the same thing I've been saying about Rondo... just with a different application. If a notorious gunner and vet can be made gun shy by his teams offense, you better believe a kid like Rondo can be. The beauty about using Rondo to his advantage , though, is that he is a true point guard. I've been saying this all along. Get him going - us him to his best advanatage - and he will make everyone else better. That is what guys like Rajon do. It is their thing. Marginalize them, and you are asking for problems.

I'm actually happy that Rondo is off to a slow start with his jumper. If he was hitting them at a good clip, Doc would have continued to use him as one. This way we get to see what happens when he is used the way that he should be.

The Celtics are also successful on offense when Paul & KG play a two man game. Yes, that same offense you tore to shreds gets people wide open jump shots and layups.

It's funny that you would argue that Doc's offense takes the aggressiveness away from Rondo when you're in favor of an offense that you admit takes the Celtics' best scorer out of his comfort zone. But Paul will just have to adjust according to you right?

Paul & Rondo have some things in common on offense, they're both not spot up shooters, and that's basically what Paul is reduced to when Rondo is running the offense.

I'm all in favor of giving the kid the show at different spots during the game, but to have three hall of famers out of their comfort zone on offense in favor of Rondo is absolutely ridiculous.

What we need is balance, it's tough because you have 5 guys on offense who can be successful in the right spots (yes even Perk). But you can't blame Doc for deferring to the big three over Rondo.

What Rajon has to do is stay aggressive when he doesn't have ball, that means picking up the opposing point guard full court- all the time. Pushing the ball off of rebounds etc...I saw Rondo walking the ball up the court & giving a lackluster effort on defense too many times during his slump.

What does that say about maturity of Rajon?

I agree, he can be special when he's running the show. But he doesn't need to ball to be aggressive, one of the best games he played this season was in Toronto. A game ironically that was dominated by the post play of Perkins & Garnett.

All he did during that game was pressure Calderon on defense and push the ball on offense...all while getting himself lay ups and his teammates into the offense quickly. There are many things Rondo can do help his team and most of them don't come from guys setting picks for him.

Actually, it is just Pierce who is out of his comfort zone, not K.G. or Ray. Those two have been cleaning up, playing super efficient basketball with Rondo in control. It isn't even as if Paul can't succeed this way, he just has to make the adjustment. An adjustment which will ultimately benefit him as Rondo gets him good shots, and the ball where he likes it. He just doesn't have the ball as much, and he knows that.

It isn't as if Paul has been having a great season, or that running the offense through him has been wonderful. He had two awesome games in a row, and has been very inefficient overall. His defense and rebounding is there, and he's getting to the line, but his shooting and turnovers were sub par. He is shooting .408 from the field on the season. That is not like him.

Our offense was a joke until five games ago. 27th out of 30 teams in efficiency. That is wretched. Over the last 5 we have been scoring 108 ppg shooting .519 as a team and .421 from the arc. Do you realize how awful were were before? We were scoring in the low 90's, shooting in the low 40's from the field and the low 30's from the arc. It was terrible. The turnovers have gone down, too. This is the way to play.

The only player who seems to be completely in their comfort zone with Rondo running the show is Ray Allen, KG & Paul Pierce become spot up jump shooters. Yet you have no issue with this. Fine.

Also, Rondo was on the floor before the last 5 games. You do know that right? You can't conveniently give him credit and take away blame at the same time.

I guess Rajon's walking the ball up the court & lack of defense pressure had nothing to do with the offense right?

I gave an example of Rondo just playing great defense & pushing the ball which lead to easy buckets for himself and his teammates, no picks set for him to do it, the Celtics were super efficient that game too. Yet it was completely ignored.

I can see why posters are fed up with arguing with you, go try to explain to any basketball coach that you want to take the ball out of the hands of your best players in favor of a third year point guard and see if you don't get laughed out of the building.

I'm all for balance, but setting picks for Rondo isn't all the C's can do on Offense. Doc isn't a fool for realizing that.

Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #50 on: November 28, 2008, 07:10:24 PM »

Offline cordobes

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If he stays agressive and confident, sky is the limit for him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5oMVz3VV3c

This is an off-topic (on the topic, Rondo has always been, and it's going to be for a while, an inconsistent offensive player, and he'll never be an All-Star quality player until he improves the jumper;the C's aren't doing anything different now that they were doing his slump), but has anyone noticed the last play on that video, the Garnett dunk?

I'm glad I had the chance of catching it again, because when watching the game I thought it was one of the dumbest plays I've ever seen in a pro basketball game. Sometimes, when watching the Warriors, I find difficult to figure out what are players mistakes on defense and what are defensive gimmicks called by Nelson, but there's no way that was designed. The guy chases Rondo to the ball, then backpedals to the weakside creating a 2 on 1 for no reason and seeing the all thing going on?! It's impressive, I play pickup games where guys are called out if they do something like that. What was he thinking? What has Biedrins thought and said to him? I used to have high hopes for Azubuike, but I'm now convinced he's the second coming of Pietrus. Impressively dumb.

The C's aren't doing anything diffrent, but rajon is. Slumping rajon pulled the ball out on fast breaks and refused to drive aggresivly. Rajon post slump is doing that quite well.

and yea, what was up with that play? was he hoping rondo would forget to pass and take an off balance jumper he could rebound rather than pass to KG for the easy flush?

My guess? He wasn't thinking at all. He was there but he wasn't able to mentally understand what was going on, he didn't realize that he was leaving his teammate in a 1 to 2 situation, he didn't understand the play. It wasn't the first time I saw Azubuike having this kind of mental lapses; sometimes he does the same stuff that used to make me turn off C's games for a while when GMoney was in the team. This one is particularly egregious though, he seems to have regressed. It's a shame, he has some excellent tools to be a very good player.

Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #51 on: November 28, 2008, 07:32:54 PM »

Offline rondilla

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The problem with Rondo, first and foremost, at the beginning of this season was that we ran an offense which continually took the ball out of his hands. That four game stretch was bad, and I think his groin pull and elbow injury didn't help, but it was the basic nature of our offense which was the main culprit. Personally, I think that Garnett's suspension was a blessing in that it forced Doc to actually give the kid the ball, and he came through for us. To Doc's credit he actually kept on giving Rondo the ball, and the kid kept on performing.

The talk of "aggressiveness" is misguided, IMO. How could Rondo be "aggressive" when he didn't have real control over the offense. Game after game he was dribbling down and handing off to Paul and Ray. They ran the offense, and they did not do a good job of it. Most possessions Rondo never touched the ball after he brought it up. We played 4 on 5 basketball BY DESIGN. We actually were the 27th ranked offense in the league 11 games into the season, efficiency-wise. Five games later - five games where Rondo actuially ran the offense - we are 14th. Pretty steep climb to say the least.

I just did a quick calculation regarding Rondo's PER over the last five games. It was about 13.7 after 11 games, and it is up to 17.85. To play 11 games at a 13.7 average and get it up to 17.85 in 5 means that Rondo's PER over these last 5 was approximately 27.0.  That is a very, very high PER and a huge one for a point guard. The main reason that he has that is he actually has had the ball in his hands the last 5 games. It has made a big difference. Mind you that he has not dominated the ball, he simply hasn't be forced to give it up almost every time down, and has actually had it passed back to him when he does pass it off. It is alot easier to be "aggressive" when things like that are happening.

Do I think that Rondo will keep this up at this level? I doubt it, but I do think that he can stay fairly close to it. I also think that the PER's of Paul, Ray and Kevin will also go up as a result. The beautiful part about all of this is that Rondo is a true point guard. Getting him the ball means that he will get everyone else involved as well. It is what he does. His defense is also a huge factor for us, and that really isn't related by his PER. Steals count, but Rondo'd defense goes beyond just getting those.

Doc actually thought that his "offensive lineup" was the one with House at the point - a spot up shooter. It turned out that it was the one with Rondo - with Rondo actually running it. Hey, it's better late than never that Doc learned this.

It seemed to me Rondo was the problem early on, not the system. He refused to shoot. He also got injured for a few days. Perhaps that hurt his confidence.

Rondo was not being forced to give up the ball. He was the one choosing not to be aggressive.

So us starting games off by having Rondo bring the ball down for the firts 8 minutes of a game, and either give it to Pierce and Ray was just Rondo "not being aggressive", and not Doc's real plan? I actually make a point of counting how many picks are set for the kid, and quite often he wouldn't see one until we were 8 minutes into a game. Now if Doc didn't want that to happen he could always say during a timeout "OK, we're going pick and roll with Rondo for the next 5 or 6 possessions", that is his prerogative. Did that actually happen? Nope... not until the Knick game. Then, to get his "offensive lineup" out there he'd have Eddie at the point... so that the guys who really ran the offense - Pierce and Allen - could have someone to space the floor for them.

Then Garnett gets suspended and, voila, Rondo gets going, and our offensive lineup doesn't include Eddie. It isn't as if that hadn't happened before, as Rondo went bonkers last season when K.G. went down and Doc had to run the offense through Rajon. Unfortunately, when K.G. came back Doc thought "Now my offense will really work wonders". That didn't happen, though, and it was our defense which had to carry us. This time Doc didn't say that, he actually let the kid keep the ball.

I find it interesting how people could talk of Ray's struggles last season having to do with his being taken out of his comfort zone. That he wasn't used to being a spot up shooter and was more comfortable shooting off the dribble, yet many of the same people think using a guy like Rondo as a spot up shooter was acceptable. It was not. The kid needs the ball, like most point guards do. He is getting the ball now, and has broken out as a result. Has this hurt his teammates? With the exception of Pierce, I would say no. Ray, K.G. and Perk are all playing better as a result. Paul seems to be coming around, though he still is forcing things a bit.... because he has been taken out of his comfort zone. Rondo has the ball more, so he has the ball less. The offense as a whole has been fanastic, so Paul will just have to adjust. Once he does, he'll be the better for it.

Has the system been radically altered to do this? Absolutely not. It was simply a matter of running more of Rondo's stuff and less of the other things. It needed to be done, and the benefits are obvious. We have actually won a couple of games where our defense did not win it for us. How often did that happen last season?
Rondilla, the debate about how much Rondo's performance is affected by Doc has been raging ever since Rondo's rookie season. Perhaps the argument you're using may have made sense 2 years ago, or even last year, but at this point I think your argument has run its course. Do you honestly think that after coaching Rondo for 2 full seasons, and winning an NBA Championship with Rondo as his point guard, that Doc still doesn't know how to use him properly? It can be tough to quantify if the the offense is or isn't being run through someone, but I know what I saw with Rondo during his slump. He just wasn't aggresive enough. Forget about how many times Rondo dribbled down the floor and immediately dished it off to Pierce or Ray, because we ran our offense that way a lot last year, and we're still going to see that a lot this year. Rondo has his share of possesions when he's the one making the plays, and earlier on in the season he wasn't making the right decisions. It's as simple as that. The decisions Doc makes are going to have an impact on what's happening on the court, I'm not denying that. But the NBA is a players league. The players are the ones you give the credit to in success, and the players are the ones you blame in failure. It's Rondo's responsibility to make the most out of his playing time. If anything, Rondo's sudden transformation proves that his slump had nothing to do with Doc. If Doc's offensive system wasn't "radically altered," then explain how Rondo's radical alteration has anything at all to do with the system. I don't buy that Doc slightly tweaked the gameplan, and that all of a sudden Rondo magically went from Marcus Banks to Chris Paul.

The answer is yes and no. Does Doc know how to use Rondo, and has he known before? Yes. Did Doc WANT to use Rondo that way? No. When K.G. went down last season, he was forced, by necessity, to actually give Rondo the ball more. Remember how well Rajon was playing in that stretch, and how well the team fared even without Garnett? The two games lost (@Cleve,@Orlando) came down to the final minute (the final second in Orlando), and we lost in those places with K.G. We also beat quality teams (Dallas and San Antonio) over that stretch. We came very close to going 9 and 0. That stretch killed K.G.'s MVP chances.

The problem with Doc is that he really likes running his offense through the wing players. It has always been his thing. He believes in that style of basketball. In Doc's perfect offense everyone is a shooter (including the center), and the spacing is perfect, allowing the wings to penetrate and score/playmake. The ball gets passed around a lot, Norman Dale-style. It was a minor miracle that he actually took a liking to Rondo (Doc couldn't stand him at first). The thing is that Rondo just played so hard, was such a good defender, and just made so many things happen that Doc had to play him (not to mention that Danny made sure he was the only point guard on the roster to help Doc along with this decision).

As I said before, the stuff for Rondo was already in the offense. They are just running MORE of that, and LESS of the other stuff. There is also more of an emphasis on getting the ball back to him. Simple. All that had to be donme was to put an emphasis on it. That is what happened last season when Garnett went down.

I have watched these games, and I know what you are talking about. Rondo has been passing up shots, and he wasn't aggressive. The thing is that he was also being asked to play in a way which ran completely counter to what he is about as a player. Paul and Ray were making the decisions for the offense, and they were making poor ones. Quite often they refused to pass the kid the ball, even when he was the ONLY logical choice. His opportunities were limited, and usually when he was shooting he was forcing the shot up. Meanwhile, the offense was being run into the ground.

When your point guard is dribbling the ball up the court and consistently handing the ball off to the wings, and clears off to the weakside, and then doesn't get it back, he has no control over what is happening. That was our offense until 5 games ago. It wasn't working, and when Doc wanted to get the offense going he would put in Eddie. Now Rajon has the ball and is making the decisions. If we run it through Paul or Ray, it is because Rondo is making that call. If he wants to keep it for himself, that is his call as well. Paul and Ray aren't exactly thrilled about this, by the way. If you haven't noticed they have the bad habit of blowing Rondo off in the back court on occassion. They also have the bad habit of completely ruining offensive possessions as a result of this.... and then the ball goes back to Rondo.

Using a player in the wrong way can take away his aggression. I watched Eric Snow criticize the Pistons for the way that they were using A.I. saying, essentially, the same thing I've been saying about Rondo... just with a different application. If a notorious gunner and vet can be made gun shy by his teams offense, you better believe a kid like Rondo can be. The beauty about using Rondo to his advantage , though, is that he is a true point guard. I've been saying this all along. Get him going - us him to his best advanatage - and he will make everyone else better. That is what guys like Rajon do. It is their thing. Marginalize them, and you are asking for problems.

I'm actually happy that Rondo is off to a slow start with his jumper. If he was hitting them at a good clip, Doc would have continued to use him as one. This way we get to see what happens when he is used the way that he should be.

The Celtics are also successful on offense when Paul & KG play a two man game. Yes, that same offense you tore to shreds gets people wide open jump shots and layups.

It's funny that you would argue that Doc's offense takes the aggressiveness away from Rondo when you're in favor of an offense that you admit takes the Celtics' best scorer out of his comfort zone. But Paul will just have to adjust according to you right?

Paul & Rondo have some things in common on offense, they're both not spot up shooters, and that's basically what Paul is reduced to when Rondo is running the offense.

I'm all in favor of giving the kid the show at different spots during the game, but to have three hall of famers out of their comfort zone on offense in favor of Rondo is absolutely ridiculous.

What we need is balance, it's tough because you have 5 guys on offense who can be successful in the right spots (yes even Perk). But you can't blame Doc for deferring to the big three over Rondo.

What Rajon has to do is stay aggressive when he doesn't have ball, that means picking up the opposing point guard full court- all the time. Pushing the ball off of rebounds etc...I saw Rondo walking the ball up the court & giving a lackluster effort on defense too many times during his slump.

What does that say about maturity of Rajon?

I agree, he can be special when he's running the show. But he doesn't need to ball to be aggressive, one of the best games he played this season was in Toronto. A game ironically that was dominated by the post play of Perkins & Garnett.

All he did during that game was pressure Calderon on defense and push the ball on offense...all while getting himself lay ups and his teammates into the offense quickly. There are many things Rondo can do help his team and most of them don't come from guys setting picks for him.

Actually, it is just Pierce who is out of his comfort zone, not K.G. or Ray. Those two have been cleaning up, playing super efficient basketball with Rondo in control. It isn't even as if Paul can't succeed this way, he just has to make the adjustment. An adjustment which will ultimately benefit him as Rondo gets him good shots, and the ball where he likes it. He just doesn't have the ball as much, and he knows that.

It isn't as if Paul has been having a great season, or that running the offense through him has been wonderful. He had two awesome games in a row, and has been very inefficient overall. His defense and rebounding is there, and he's getting to the line, but his shooting and turnovers were sub par. He is shooting .408 from the field on the season. That is not like him.

Our offense was a joke until five games ago. 27th out of 30 teams in efficiency. That is wretched. Over the last 5 we have been scoring 108 ppg shooting .519 as a team and .421 from the arc. Do you realize how awful were were before? We were scoring in the low 90's, shooting in the low 40's from the field and the low 30's from the arc. It was terrible. The turnovers have gone down, too. This is the way to play.

The only player who seems to be completely in their comfort zone with Rondo running the show is Ray Allen, KG & Paul Pierce become spot up jump shooters. Yet you have no issue with this. Fine.

Also, Rondo was on the floor before the last 5 games. You do know that right? You can't conveniently give him credit and take away blame at the same time.

I guess Rajon's walking the ball up the court & lack of defense pressure had nothing to do with the offense right?

I gave an example of Rondo just playing great defense & pushing the ball which lead to easy buckets for himself and his teammates, no picks set for him to do it, the Celtics were super efficient that game too. Yet it was completely ignored.

I can see why posters are fed up with arguing with you, go try to explain to any basketball coach that you want to take the ball out of the hands of your best players in favor of a third year point guard and see if you don't get laughed out of the building.

I'm all for balance, but setting picks for Rondo isn't all the C's can do on Offense. Doc isn't a fool for realizing that.

Garnett's not in his comfort zone? He hasn't had it so good all season. His assist to turnover ratio was pathetic before the last 4 games, and he has totalled 12 dimes against three turnovers in the last 4. He had 5 turnovers in the Buck game alone, and 4 in the game before that. Let's see 5 assist and 9 turnovers against 12 assists and 3 turnovers. Yeah, I'm going with plan B. He's also getting a lot of great looks at the basket, especially inside. Rondo has been feeding him big time.Ray has been great playing this way.

As to "explaining to a basketball coach", well if the point guard does a better job runing the offense than his teammates, then he should. Maybe Magic Johnson should have deferred to his Hall of Fame teammates because they were older than him. Give me a break.

Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #52 on: November 28, 2008, 07:47:18 PM »

Offline KCattheStripe

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I go away for one week and things get heated.  :P

Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #53 on: November 28, 2008, 11:04:28 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I understand what you mean by controlling the offense and I am telling you you are wrong. Paul and Ray have to initiate the offense at times as well. You love examples here's one. Doc has substitutued Ray for Rondo in the play where garnett and Rondo or Ray are on one side of the court, Garnett on the baseline post Rondo or Ray up top. Either Ray or Rondo feed Garnett who then swts the pick on the run by of Ray or Rondo and then has the option of feeding the open Rondo or Ray for a lay-in, posts his man up because he's now in an iso or passesout for a swing of the perimeter to the open Rondo or Ray who ran around a second big man pick and is open for the jumper.

That play was primarily designed to get KG a low post iso, a lay in from the cutter or an open jay on the other side of the court for the cutter. Most of last year it was Rondo feeding KG. Many times KG handed off to Rondo but Rondo wouldn't lay it in, couldn't lay it in or passed back out for a reset. If Rondo gets that ball he has to finish. So after seeing it not work this year and especially lately it is Ray running that play. Why? Rondo's ineffectiveness and indecisiveness in finishing and, if the play is run right, his inability to hit or take the jumper on the other side after a ball swing.

That same play is run with Pierce being the feeder/cutter/weakside shooter. It is very successful with him running it because he creates so much contact and is great coming off the weak side picjk for the shot. Same with Ray.

Now that is just one play. But that whole sequence needs to be initiated by the feeder and having the versatility of having multiple players being able to initiate makes the offense much more effective overall and harder to defend against.

See that's one logic you keep ignoring. That having multiple players being able to initiate offense is more difficult to guard against. It makes the team less predictable. It makes it more dangerous and effective. You see the best thing about the Big Three is their mulitple assets on the offensive end. They all shoot, finish and pass well above average for the average player at their positions. Using all of those assets in different areas and at different times is the most important aspect of the Celtics offense.

Having Rondo calling the plays and initiate them limits this team and effectiveness. It really is that easy. Now as long as Rondo is playing intelligently and staying within himself when the offense isn't being initiated by him, he can still be a valuable asset on the offense.

As for the timing as to when Rondo's play picked up last year and when it did this year, I feel you are a victim of overthinking the situation. In every single sport when a star goes down, other players pick up their game and compensates. It has been happening in all sports for decades. It is the same thing with Rondo's timing. He mentally concentrated more and honed his game because he knew he had to.

The explanation is really that simple and has nothing to do with sweeping changes in the way Doc has his team run. I mean think about what you are saying. Coaches are creatures of habit and system. Over a short term they will NEVER change their system for better efficacy they will just change players. The same thing happened here. Rondo simply played smarter, played better, and concentrated more when the team leader was down because he knew he had to.

Prove is in the pudding. During the 10 games KG hasn't played in due to the injury and suspension, Rondo averaged 7.1 rebounds per game. Over the rest of his career he has averaged 4 RPG. Why? Because knowing that Garnett, a great rebounder isn't there Rondo made the concerted effort to rebound more because he had to for the team to succeed. Under your logic, Doc giving Rondo the reins on offense made Rondo nearly double the rebounder during those game? Of Corse not. Rondo concentrated more and improved his game to compensate. It's been happening in sports since time began.

Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #54 on: November 28, 2008, 11:38:11 PM »

Offline winsomme

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They aren't used to playing OFF of Rondo yet. Different words have different meanings. This team is not used to playing off of their point guard. They are used to Doc's offense, which was being initiated mostly by Paul and Ray, and not all that much by Rondo.

Alright, i'm gonna bite....Who's offense are they running now?

Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2008, 12:34:42 AM »

Offline bucknersrevenge

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I think Rondo's recent play is a combination of being more aggressive on offense AND just making better decisions with the ball. The last 6 games or so I've Rondo is "full attack" mode far more often. That Denver game which I think was the game just before the lightbulb came on for Rondo he wasn't doing anything to make Billups have to guard him. And that means penetrating, taking an open 10 footer and getting the ball up the floor off a rebound and creating offense early in the shot clock for himself or for teammates. He's doing that a lot more now and we've been winning by embarrassing margins lately because of it.

I agree with nick that its not about dominating the ball or even who intiates it. But to me putting the pressure on his man to guard him all the way to the rim and Rondo actually creating easy opportunities by not ALWAYS pulling the ball out and setting up the offense. In tonight's game there was a great play where Paul created a Rondo assist by filling a lane and holding a defender. But Paul ran because Rondo ran. and both of them running together set up Ray for an easy transition 3.

I believe the transition game is where the whole team has improved and now EVERYONE is making better decisions and finding easy looks by finding more occasions to push the pace as a group.
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Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2008, 01:06:51 AM »

Offline Edgar

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I think Rondo's recent play is a combination of being more aggressive on offense AND just making better decisions with the ball. The last 6 games or so I've Rondo is "full attack" mode far more often. That Denver game which I think was the game just before the lightbulb came on for Rondo he wasn't doing anything to make Billups have to guard him. And that means penetrating, taking an open 10 footer and getting the ball up the floor off a rebound and creating offense early in the shot clock for himself or for teammates. He's doing that a lot more now and we've been winning by embarrassing margins lately because of it.

I agree with nick that its not about dominating the ball or even who intiates it. But to me putting the pressure on his man to guard him all the way to the rim and Rondo actually creating easy opportunities by not ALWAYS pulling the ball out and setting up the offense. In tonight's game there was a great play where Paul created a Rondo assist by filling a lane and holding a defender. But Paul ran because Rondo ran. and both of them running together set up Ray for an easy transition 3.

I believe the transition game is where the whole team has improved and now EVERYONE is making better decisions and finding easy looks by finding more occasions to push the pace as a group.

yup
and transition its all about d
and hopefully theyre taking all learn from tom again
keep it going Cs
tp for u too b
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Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2008, 01:25:12 AM »

Offline Chris

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They aren't used to playing OFF of Rondo yet. Different words have different meanings. This team is not used to playing off of their point guard. They are used to Doc's offense, which was being initiated mostly by Paul and Ray, and not all that much by Rondo.

Alright, i'm gonna bite....Who's offense are they running now?

Good question.  Because this strange coach definitely snuck some plays in for different stretches last year as well.  It was like this coach could tell when Rondo was going to have a spurt of confidence and actually want to be aggressive, and he would jump in to show Doc how it's done.

Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2008, 11:26:00 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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I just want to shed some light on just how much Rondo has turned his game around over the past couple weeks. Two weeks ago, right after his fourth really not so great game in a row, Rondo's stats were amongst the middle of the pack for PGs in this league. Today here is where he stands amongst PGs in a wide range of stats:

Scoring per game: 28th
Field Goal %: 4th
Rebounds per game: 4th
Assists per game: 8th
Assists per 48: 7th
Assists/Turnover Ratio: 9th
Steals per game: 3rd
PER: 9th

If he keeps up his current quality of play, Rondo statistically speaking will be amongst the top 5-6 PGs in the league and should probably deserve some All-Star consideration this year. In the Eastern Conference what PGs are playing better ball? Harris, Calderon and Rose are the only others I can see competing with him as best PGs in the east. Sadly though, the league doesn't differentiate between guard positions when voting All-Stars so Rondo will probably need to get in via league selection.