Author Topic: New expectations for Rondo?  (Read 12654 times)

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Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2008, 01:38:21 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I love Rondo, I really do. But, IMO you are completely wrong in just about everything you said in this last post. I see that debating the point with you is useless because you fail to look at it completely objectively. I think Rondo will be one of the top 4-5 PGs in the league in 2-3 years. Probably the best defensive PG in the league this year.

But even I can see that Rondo's slump was Rondo's fault and that making Rondo the first and just about only playmaking option on this team, ala a Jason Kidd or Steve Nash run team, is a mistake. Ray and Paul are just too good to even consider that. The variety of places to run the offense through is what makes this total offense so efficient and unpredictable and hard to gameplan on a night to night basis.

TP4U for your Rondo love and for your insights, but I'm sorry but I just think that Rondo love is getting in the way of looking at this in the most objective light or what's best in the overall picture for this team. Rondo is a fourth option. This team works best that way and with the offense being run through various starting points from quarter to quarter and sometimes game to game. It really makes coaching against this team very difficult.

Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2008, 01:45:02 PM »

Offline rondilla

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The problem with Rondo, first and foremost, at the beginning of this season was that we ran an offense which continually took the ball out of his hands. That four game stretch was bad, and I think his groin pull and elbow injury didn't help, but it was the basic nature of our offense which was the main culprit. Personally, I think that Garnett's suspension was a blessing in that it forced Doc to actually give the kid the ball, and he came through for us. To Doc's credit he actually kept on giving Rondo the ball, and the kid kept on performing.

The talk of "aggressiveness" is misguided, IMO. How could Rondo be "aggressive" when he didn't have real control over the offense. Game after game he was dribbling down and handing off to Paul and Ray. They ran the offense, and they did not do a good job of it. Most possessions Rondo never touched the ball after he brought it up. We played 4 on 5 basketball BY DESIGN. We actually were the 27th ranked offense in the league 11 games into the season, efficiency-wise. Five games later - five games where Rondo actuially ran the offense - we are 14th. Pretty steep climb to say the least.

I just did a quick calculation regarding Rondo's PER over the last five games. It was about 13.7 after 11 games, and it is up to 17.85. To play 11 games at a 13.7 average and get it up to 17.85 in 5 means that Rondo's PER over these last 5 was approximately 27.0.  That is a very, very high PER and a huge one for a point guard. The main reason that he has that is he actually has had the ball in his hands the last 5 games. It has made a big difference. Mind you that he has not dominated the ball, he simply hasn't be forced to give it up almost every time down, and has actually had it passed back to him when he does pass it off. It is alot easier to be "aggressive" when things like that are happening.

Do I think that Rondo will keep this up at this level? I doubt it, but I do think that he can stay fairly close to it. I also think that the PER's of Paul, Ray and Kevin will also go up as a result. The beautiful part about all of this is that Rondo is a true point guard. Getting him the ball means that he will get everyone else involved as well. It is what he does. His defense is also a huge factor for us, and that really isn't related by his PER. Steals count, but Rondo'd defense goes beyond just getting those.

Doc actually thought that his "offensive lineup" was the one with House at the point - a spot up shooter. It turned out that it was the one with Rondo - with Rondo actually running it. Hey, it's better late than never that Doc learned this.

It seemed to me Rondo was the problem early on, not the system. He refused to shoot. He also got injured for a few days. Perhaps that hurt his confidence.

Rondo was not being forced to give up the ball. He was the one choosing not to be aggressive.

So us starting games off by having Rondo bring the ball down for the firts 8 minutes of a game, and either give it to Pierce and Ray was just Rondo "not being aggressive", and not Doc's real plan? I actually make a point of counting how many picks are set for the kid, and quite often he wouldn't see one until we were 8 minutes into a game. Now if Doc didn't want that to happen he could always say during a timeout "OK, we're going pick and roll with Rondo for the next 5 or 6 possessions", that is his prerogative. Did that actually happen? Nope... not until the Knick game. Then, to get his "offensive lineup" out there he'd have Eddie at the point... so that the guys who really ran the offense - Pierce and Allen - could have someone to space the floor for them.

Then Garnett gets suspended and, voila, Rondo gets going, and our offensive lineup doesn't include Eddie. It isn't as if that hadn't happened before, as Rondo went bonkers last season when K.G. went down and Doc had to run the offense through Rajon. Unfortunately, when K.G. came back Doc thought "Now my offense will really work wonders". That didn't happen, though, and it was our defense which had to carry us. This time Doc didn't say that, he actually let the kid keep the ball.

I find it interesting how people could talk of Ray's struggles last season having to do with his being taken out of his comfort zone. That he wasn't used to being a spot up shooter and was more comfortable shooting off the dribble, yet many of the same people think using a guy like Rondo as a spot up shooter was acceptable. It was not. The kid needs the ball, like most point guards do. He is getting the ball now, and has broken out as a result. Has this hurt his teammates? With the exception of Pierce, I would say no. Ray, K.G. and Perk are all playing better as a result. Paul seems to be coming around, though he still is forcing things a bit.... because he has been taken out of his comfort zone. Rondo has the ball more, so he has the ball less. The offense as a whole has been fanastic, so Paul will just have to adjust. Once he does, he'll be the better for it.

Has the system been radically altered to do this? Absolutely not. It was simply a matter of running more of Rondo's stuff and less of the other things. It needed to be done, and the benefits are obvious. We have actually won a couple of games where our defense did not win it for us. How often did that happen last season?
Rondilla, the debate about how much Rondo's performance is affected by Doc has been raging ever since Rondo's rookie season. Perhaps the argument you're using may have made sense 2 years ago, or even last year, but at this point I think your argument has run its course. Do you honestly think that after coaching Rondo for 2 full seasons, and winning an NBA Championship with Rondo as his point guard, that Doc still doesn't know how to use him properly? It can be tough to quantify if the the offense is or isn't being run through someone, but I know what I saw with Rondo during his slump. He just wasn't aggresive enough. Forget about how many times Rondo dribbled down the floor and immediately dished it off to Pierce or Ray, because we ran our offense that way a lot last year, and we're still going to see that a lot this year. Rondo has his share of possesions when he's the one making the plays, and earlier on in the season he wasn't making the right decisions. It's as simple as that. The decisions Doc makes are going to have an impact on what's happening on the court, I'm not denying that. But the NBA is a players league. The players are the ones you give the credit to in success, and the players are the ones you blame in failure. It's Rondo's responsibility to make the most out of his playing time. If anything, Rondo's sudden transformation proves that his slump had nothing to do with Doc. If Doc's offensive system wasn't "radically altered," then explain how Rondo's radical alteration has anything at all to do with the system. I don't buy that Doc slightly tweaked the gameplan, and that all of a sudden Rondo magically went from Marcus Banks to Chris Paul.

The answer is yes and no. Does Doc know how to use Rondo, and has he known before? Yes. Did Doc WANT to use Rondo that way? No. When K.G. went down last season, he was forced, by necessity, to actually give Rondo the ball more. Remember how well Rajon was playing in that stretch, and how well the team fared even without Garnett? The two games lost (@Cleve,@Orlando) came down to the final minute (the final second in Orlando), and we lost in those places with K.G. We also beat quality teams (Dallas and San Antonio) over that stretch. We came very close to going 9 and 0. That stretch killed K.G.'s MVP chances.

The problem with Doc is that he really likes running his offense through the wing players. It has always been his thing. He believes in that style of basketball. In Doc's perfect offense everyone is a shooter (including the center), and the spacing is perfect, allowing the wings to penetrate and score/playmake. The ball gets passed around a lot, Norman Dale-style. It was a minor miracle that he actually took a liking to Rondo (Doc couldn't stand him at first). The thing is that Rondo just played so hard, was such a good defender, and just made so many things happen that Doc had to play him (not to mention that Danny made sure he was the only point guard on the roster to help Doc along with this decision).

As I said before, the stuff for Rondo was already in the offense. They are just running MORE of that, and LESS of the other stuff. There is also more of an emphasis on getting the ball back to him. Simple. All that had to be donme was to put an emphasis on it. That is what happened last season when Garnett went down.

I have watched these games, and I know what you are talking about. Rondo has been passing up shots, and he wasn't aggressive. The thing is that he was also being asked to play in a way which ran completely counter to what he is about as a player. Paul and Ray were making the decisions for the offense, and they were making poor ones. Quite often they refused to pass the kid the ball, even when he was the ONLY logical choice. His opportunities were limited, and usually when he was shooting he was forcing the shot up. Meanwhile, the offense was being run into the ground.

When your point guard is dribbling the ball up the court and consistently handing the ball off to the wings, and clears off to the weakside, and then doesn't get it back, he has no control over what is happening. That was our offense until 5 games ago. It wasn't working, and when Doc wanted to get the offense going he would put in Eddie. Now Rajon has the ball and is making the decisions. If we run it through Paul or Ray, it is because Rondo is making that call. If he wants to keep it for himself, that is his call as well. Paul and Ray aren't exactly thrilled about this, by the way. If you haven't noticed they have the bad habit of blowing Rondo off in the back court on occassion. They also have the bad habit of completely ruining offensive possessions as a result of this.... and then the ball goes back to Rondo.

Using a player in the wrong way can take away his aggression. I watched Eric Snow criticize the Pistons for the way that they were using A.I. saying, essentially, the same thing I've been saying about Rondo... just with a different application. If a notorious gunner and vet can be made gun shy by his teams offense, you better believe a kid like Rondo can be. The beauty about using Rondo to his advantage , though, is that he is a true point guard. I've been saying this all along. Get him going - us him to his best advanatage - and he will make everyone else better. That is what guys like Rajon do. It is their thing. Marginalize them, and you are asking for problems.

I'm actually happy that Rondo is off to a slow start with his jumper. If he was hitting them at a good clip, Doc would have continued to use him as one. This way we get to see what happens when he is used the way that he should be.

Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2008, 02:33:42 PM »

Offline rondilla

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I love Rondo, I really do. But, IMO you are completely wrong in just about everything you said in this last post. I see that debating the point with you is useless because you fail to look at it completely objectively. I think Rondo will be one of the top 4-5 PGs in the league in 2-3 years. Probably the best defensive PG in the league this year.

But even I can see that Rondo's slump was Rondo's fault and that making Rondo the first and just about only playmaking option on this team, ala a Jason Kidd or Steve Nash run team, is a mistake. Ray and Paul are just too good to even consider that. The variety of places to run the offense through is what makes this total offense so efficient and unpredictable and hard to gameplan on a night to night basis.

TP4U for your Rondo love and for your insights, but I'm sorry but I just think that Rondo love is getting in the way of looking at this in the most objective light or what's best in the overall picture for this team. Rondo is a fourth option. This team works best that way and with the offense being run through various starting points from quarter to quarter and sometimes game to game. It really makes coaching against this team very difficult.

I think that your objectivity is off a bit, not mine. I have repeatedly stated that I do not want Rondo to dominate the ball - a la Nash, Paul, or point guards like them. Saying that Kidd does is a mistake, by the way.

The issue is CONTROL of the offense. Paul and Ray are not, and bever really have been, guys who can control an offense on a consistent basis. Sometimes it works out, most of the time it does not. They are great players, but they are guys who operate best when they think score first, pass second, especially Ray.

This whole thing brings to mind Chauncey Billups. I think that a lot of people, and evidently Joe Dumars, don't really understand his value. Does he dominate the ball? No. Does he control an offense at a high level? Yes. Just look at what is happening in Denver. The guy shows up, and suddenly things are working right. Once he actually gets to know his guys, they'll be a really dangerous team. He is a different type of player than Rondo, but both understand where the ball is supposed to go. Iverson has been, IMO, bending over backwards for the last couple of years trying to be unselfish, but he just isn't a point guard. It isn't his fault, he just is what he is. The same goes for our guys. They do what they do extremely well. That does not mean that they should control this offense.

Haven't you noticed that the offense without Rondo on the court hasn't run anywhere near as well as it has with him on it over the last 5 games? It is like night and day. Is that explained simply by "Rondo is being more aggressive"? I think not. You put Eddie out there with the starters now and it just isn't the same. Why? Rondo isn't controlling it. What Eddie brings with his shooting is far outweighed by the lack of control caused by Rajon's absence. It isn't a rudderless ship, because the Big Three are great players, but it doesn't work at peak efficiency because the kid isn't there to guide it. That is why such a big deal is made about the point guard position - the control factor presented by a good one. Rondo is a very good one.

Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2008, 03:01:26 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I agree with you that the offense with and without Rondo on the court is night and day and that that is because of the lack of a good point guard coming off the bench but honestly, that is true with just about every team in the league and is not a problem singular to the Celtics. most benches aren't loaded up with guys that are good passers. Quite the contrary.

That problem is then compounded here because Doc so loves to play a bench five together rather than stagnating players in and out while keeping 2-3 starters on the floor at one time. Therefore when Rondo is off the floor, Eddie House is usually playing with only one or no starters with him. None of those guys are exception passers or even offensive players. So your assertion that the offense runs better when Rondo is in lacks teeth because it is inherent through the league that backup PGs don't run there offense as well as the starting PG and because in the Celtics case the second team sucks compared to the five guys Rondo is out there with on a regular basis.

I also think that Rondo's recent upswing in quality play has nothing to do with being agressive and everything to do with playing intelligently. There's a huge difference. Rondo's decision making over the last 5 games has been excellent regarding when to shoot and when not to and where and when he is getting players the ball. Aggression has nothing to do with it.

And having been at the last game and seen all the others you are wrong that Rondo is running the offense and controlling the offense. As many times as Rondo has initiated plays or been the main man atwith the ball on offense, Pierce and Allen have too. Sorry but as I said this is a neccessary evil given the quality of the players involved and the versatility it provides to the team. It makes defending this team extremely difficult. A team with Rondo controlling the offense primarily is too predictable and easier defended.

The difference in Rondo's production has everything to do with what is happening between Rondo's ears and very little to nothing to do with any changes that Doc has made to this offense. Doc is just teaching Rondo when to and how to play better by playing smarter.

Now once Rondo displays that he is playing confidently does Doc run more plays Rondo's way? Of course he does. Going with the hot hand is always the right move but changing the offense to have the ball centered around his play would be a huge mistake for this club.

Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2008, 03:25:42 PM »

Offline Binky-King

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The problem with Rondo, first and foremost, at the beginning of this season was that we ran an offense which continually took the ball out of his hands. That four game stretch was bad, and I think his groin pull and elbow injury didn't help, but it was the basic nature of our offense which was the main culprit. Personally, I think that Garnett's suspension was a blessing in that it forced Doc to actually give the kid the ball, and he came through for us. To Doc's credit he actually kept on giving Rondo the ball, and the kid kept on performing.

The talk of "aggressiveness" is misguided, IMO. How could Rondo be "aggressive" when he didn't have real control over the offense. Game after game he was dribbling down and handing off to Paul and Ray. They ran the offense, and they did not do a good job of it. Most possessions Rondo never touched the ball after he brought it up. We played 4 on 5 basketball BY DESIGN. We actually were the 27th ranked offense in the league 11 games into the season, efficiency-wise. Five games later - five games where Rondo actuially ran the offense - we are 14th. Pretty steep climb to say the least.

I just did a quick calculation regarding Rondo's PER over the last five games. It was about 13.7 after 11 games, and it is up to 17.85. To play 11 games at a 13.7 average and get it up to 17.85 in 5 means that Rondo's PER over these last 5 was approximately 27.0.  That is a very, very high PER and a huge one for a point guard. The main reason that he has that is he actually has had the ball in his hands the last 5 games. It has made a big difference. Mind you that he has not dominated the ball, he simply hasn't be forced to give it up almost every time down, and has actually had it passed back to him when he does pass it off. It is alot easier to be "aggressive" when things like that are happening.

Do I think that Rondo will keep this up at this level? I doubt it, but I do think that he can stay fairly close to it. I also think that the PER's of Paul, Ray and Kevin will also go up as a result. The beautiful part about all of this is that Rondo is a true point guard. Getting him the ball means that he will get everyone else involved as well. It is what he does. His defense is also a huge factor for us, and that really isn't related by his PER. Steals count, but Rondo'd defense goes beyond just getting those.

Doc actually thought that his "offensive lineup" was the one with House at the point - a spot up shooter. It turned out that it was the one with Rondo - with Rondo actually running it. Hey, it's better late than never that Doc learned this.

It seemed to me Rondo was the problem early on, not the system. He refused to shoot. He also got injured for a few days. Perhaps that hurt his confidence.

Rondo was not being forced to give up the ball. He was the one choosing not to be aggressive.

So us starting games off by having Rondo bring the ball down for the firts 8 minutes of a game, and either give it to Pierce and Ray was just Rondo "not being aggressive", and not Doc's real plan? I actually make a point of counting how many picks are set for the kid, and quite often he wouldn't see one until we were 8 minutes into a game. Now if Doc didn't want that to happen he could always say during a timeout "OK, we're going pick and roll with Rondo for the next 5 or 6 possessions", that is his prerogative. Did that actually happen? Nope... not until the Knick game. Then, to get his "offensive lineup" out there he'd have Eddie at the point... so that the guys who really ran the offense - Pierce and Allen - could have someone to space the floor for them.

Then Garnett gets suspended and, voila, Rondo gets going, and our offensive lineup doesn't include Eddie. It isn't as if that hadn't happened before, as Rondo went bonkers last season when K.G. went down and Doc had to run the offense through Rajon. Unfortunately, when K.G. came back Doc thought "Now my offense will really work wonders". That didn't happen, though, and it was our defense which had to carry us. This time Doc didn't say that, he actually let the kid keep the ball.

I find it interesting how people could talk of Ray's struggles last season having to do with his being taken out of his comfort zone. That he wasn't used to being a spot up shooter and was more comfortable shooting off the dribble, yet many of the same people think using a guy like Rondo as a spot up shooter was acceptable. It was not. The kid needs the ball, like most point guards do. He is getting the ball now, and has broken out as a result. Has this hurt his teammates? With the exception of Pierce, I would say no. Ray, K.G. and Perk are all playing better as a result. Paul seems to be coming around, though he still is forcing things a bit.... because he has been taken out of his comfort zone. Rondo has the ball more, so he has the ball less. The offense as a whole has been fanastic, so Paul will just have to adjust. Once he does, he'll be the better for it.

Has the system been radically altered to do this? Absolutely not. It was simply a matter of running more of Rondo's stuff and less of the other things. It needed to be done, and the benefits are obvious. We have actually won a couple of games where our defense did not win it for us. How often did that happen last season?
Rondilla, the debate about how much Rondo's performance is affected by Doc has been raging ever since Rondo's rookie season. Perhaps the argument you're using may have made sense 2 years ago, or even last year, but at this point I think your argument has run its course. Do you honestly think that after coaching Rondo for 2 full seasons, and winning an NBA Championship with Rondo as his point guard, that Doc still doesn't know how to use him properly? It can be tough to quantify if the the offense is or isn't being run through someone, but I know what I saw with Rondo during his slump. He just wasn't aggresive enough. Forget about how many times Rondo dribbled down the floor and immediately dished it off to Pierce or Ray, because we ran our offense that way a lot last year, and we're still going to see that a lot this year. Rondo has his share of possesions when he's the one making the plays, and earlier on in the season he wasn't making the right decisions. It's as simple as that. The decisions Doc makes are going to have an impact on what's happening on the court, I'm not denying that. But the NBA is a players league. The players are the ones you give the credit to in success, and the players are the ones you blame in failure. It's Rondo's responsibility to make the most out of his playing time. If anything, Rondo's sudden transformation proves that his slump had nothing to do with Doc. If Doc's offensive system wasn't "radically altered," then explain how Rondo's radical alteration has anything at all to do with the system. I don't buy that Doc slightly tweaked the gameplan, and that all of a sudden Rondo magically went from Marcus Banks to Chris Paul.

The answer is yes and no. Does Doc know how to use Rondo, and has he known before? Yes. Did Doc WANT to use Rondo that way? No. When K.G. went down last season, he was forced, by necessity, to actually give Rondo the ball more. Remember how well Rajon was playing in that stretch, and how well the team fared even without Garnett? The two games lost (@Cleve,@Orlando) came down to the final minute (the final second in Orlando), and we lost in those places with K.G. We also beat quality teams (Dallas and San Antonio) over that stretch. We came very close to going 9 and 0. That stretch killed K.G.'s MVP chances.

The problem with Doc is that he really likes running his offense through the wing players. It has always been his thing. He believes in that style of basketball. In Doc's perfect offense everyone is a shooter (including the center), and the spacing is perfect, allowing the wings to penetrate and score/playmake. The ball gets passed around a lot, Norman Dale-style. It was a minor miracle that he actually took a liking to Rondo (Doc couldn't stand him at first). The thing is that Rondo just played so hard, was such a good defender, and just made so many things happen that Doc had to play him (not to mention that Danny made sure he was the only point guard on the roster to help Doc along with this decision).

As I said before, the stuff for Rondo was already in the offense. They are just running MORE of that, and LESS of the other stuff. There is also more of an emphasis on getting the ball back to him. Simple. All that had to be donme was to put an emphasis on it. That is what happened last season when Garnett went down.

I have watched these games, and I know what you are talking about. Rondo has been passing up shots, and he wasn't aggressive. The thing is that he was also being asked to play in a way which ran completely counter to what he is about as a player. Paul and Ray were making the decisions for the offense, and they were making poor ones. Quite often they refused to pass the kid the ball, even when he was the ONLY logical choice. His opportunities were limited, and usually when he was shooting he was forcing the shot up. Meanwhile, the offense was being run into the ground.

When your point guard is dribbling the ball up the court and consistently handing the ball off to the wings, and clears off to the weakside, and then doesn't get it back, he has no control over what is happening. That was our offense until 5 games ago. It wasn't working, and when Doc wanted to get the offense going he would put in Eddie. Now Rajon has the ball and is making the decisions. If we run it through Paul or Ray, it is because Rondo is making that call. If he wants to keep it for himself, that is his call as well. Paul and Ray aren't exactly thrilled about this, by the way. If you haven't noticed they have the bad habit of blowing Rondo off in the back court on occassion. They also have the bad habit of completely ruining offensive possessions as a result of this.... and then the ball goes back to Rondo.

Using a player in the wrong way can take away his aggression. I watched Eric Snow criticize the Pistons for the way that they were using A.I. saying, essentially, the same thing I've been saying about Rondo... just with a different application. If a notorious gunner and vet can be made gun shy by his teams offense, you better believe a kid like Rondo can be. The beauty about using Rondo to his advantage , though, is that he is a true point guard. I've been saying this all along. Get him going - us him to his best advanatage - and he will make everyone else better. That is what guys like Rajon do. It is their thing. Marginalize them, and you are asking for problems.

I'm actually happy that Rondo is off to a slow start with his jumper. If he was hitting them at a good clip, Doc would have continued to use him as one. This way we get to see what happens when he is used the way that he should be.

The Celtics are also successful on offense when Paul & KG play a two man game. Yes, that same offense you tore to shreds gets people wide open jump shots and layups.

It's funny that you would argue that Doc's offense takes the aggressiveness away from Rondo when you're in favor of an offense that you admit takes the Celtics' best scorer out of his comfort zone. But Paul will just have to adjust according to you right?

Paul & Rondo have some things in common on offense, they're both not spot up shooters, and that's basically what Paul is reduced to when Rondo is running the offense.

I'm all in favor of giving the kid the show at different spots during the game, but to have three hall of famers out of their comfort zone on offense in favor of Rondo is absolutely ridiculous.

What we need is balance, it's tough because you have 5 guys on offense who can be successful in the right spots (yes even Perk). But you can't blame Doc for deferring to the big three over Rondo.

What Rajon has to do is stay aggressive when he doesn't have ball, that means picking up the opposing point guard full court- all the time. Pushing the ball off of rebounds etc...I saw Rondo walking the ball up the court & giving a lackluster effort on defense too many times during his slump.

What does that say about maturity of Rajon?

I agree, he can be special when he's running the show. But he doesn't need to ball to be aggressive, one of the best games he played this season was in Toronto. A game ironically that was dominated by the post play of Perkins & Garnett.

All he did during that game was pressure Calderon on defense and push the ball on offense...all while getting himself lay ups and his teammates into the offense quickly. There are many things Rondo can do help his team and most of them don't come from guys setting picks for him.

Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2008, 04:14:52 PM »

Offline rondilla

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I agree with you that the offense with and without Rondo on the court is night and day and that that is because of the lack of a good point guard coming off the bench but honestly, that is true with just about every team in the league and is not a problem singular to the Celtics. most benches aren't loaded up with guys that are good passers. Quite the contrary.

That problem is then compounded here because Doc so loves to play a bench five together rather than stagnating players in and out while keeping 2-3 starters on the floor at one time. Therefore when Rondo is off the floor, Eddie House is usually playing with only one or no starters with him. None of those guys are exception passers or even offensive players. So your assertion that the offense runs better when Rondo is in lacks teeth because it is inherent through the league that backup PGs don't run there offense as well as the starting PG and because in the Celtics case the second team sucks compared to the five guys Rondo is out there with on a regular basis.

I also think that Rondo's recent upswing in quality play has nothing to do with being agressive and everything to do with playing intelligently. There's a huge difference. Rondo's decision making over the last 5 games has been excellent regarding when to shoot and when not to and where and when he is getting players the ball. Aggression has nothing to do with it.

And having been at the last game and seen all the others you are wrong that Rondo is running the offense and controlling the offense. As many times as Rondo has initiated plays or been the main man atwith the ball on offense, Pierce and Allen have too. Sorry but as I said this is a neccessary evil given the quality of the players involved and the versatility it provides to the team. It makes defending this team extremely difficult. A team with Rondo controlling the offense primarily is too predictable and easier defended.

The difference in Rondo's production has everything to do with what is happening between Rondo's ears and very little to nothing to do with any changes that Doc has made to this offense. Doc is just teaching Rondo when to and how to play better by playing smarter.

Now once Rondo displays that he is playing confidently does Doc run more plays Rondo's way? Of course he does. Going with the hot hand is always the right move but changing the offense to have the ball centered around his play would be a huge mistake for this club.

Kind of funny how Rondo's hand suddenly became hot when K.G. had to sit out a game, and Doc had to run offense through him. The same thing happened last year, too. We have already been down this path.

Lest you forget, our bench was our strong point for most of this season. That was where the offense was coming from. Our starters were stuck in a morass, while our bench was lighting people up, and as you said with either Pierce or Ray in the mix. Over the last 5 games, though, it has been the starting unit which has been putting up the fireworks. The fact that Doc is trying to give Paul and Ray more rest, and has Scal out there instead has certainly played into it, but even when Paul and Ray are out there it isn't going so well.

I actually think that ity isn't so much that the bench has fallen off of the map as it has to do with the starters playing so well. The energy level is going DOWN when the starters go out. Early on in the season it went UP. The bench is playing at the same overall level, but the starters have done a 180.

You seem to not understand what I mean by "control". I keep explaining it, I give examples (Billups), and say "I don't want Rondo to dominate the ball", but you are stuck on the idea that Rondo controlling the offense means that he is dominating the ball. What it means is that he is calling the shots out there. If Paul and Ray are initiating a set, it is Rondo's choice, not theirs. If he goes pick and roll it is his call, not theirs. That is what Billups has done for years. Just check out 82games.com's Nugg page. The defensive rating that Billups has is identical to Iverson's with the Nuggs. The offensive rating is not.

To be in control of the offense is to be like a traffic cop. Let the traffic flow one way, then let it flow another. The same is true for Rajon. He chooses (with Doc's input, of course) for the team to run it one way, then changes it up when that doesn't work. The guy who has benefitted the most, over the last 5 (four for him actually), is Garnett. He went 9 for 23 in this last game, but he could have gone 17 for 23 taking those shots. They were HIS shots. His turnovers have plummeted, and his assists have gone up. Ray is shooting over .517 from the field, and about.450 on threes. Perk is shooting .679 scoring 9 per game in only 25 minutes per game. The only one who has struggled is Paul, and that is because HE is forcing things in very much the same way that Rajon was before.

I'll illustrate two possessions from the last game which may illustrate what I'm talking about. On the first, and I'm not absolutely positive about this point, but Paul didn't give the ball up to Rondo when he wanted it and decided that he was going to run a possession. Rondo cleared out to the right, and K.G. tried to set a pick for Paul. The Warriors clooged up the middle and attacked Paul's dribble. His ONLY outlet was to Rondo, who was waving his hands on the right side. Paul, instead, decided to drive to the hoop, got swallowed up, and then passed the ball to no one, out of bounds on the right wing.

On a possession near the end of the game, and what was ultimately the dagger shot, Rondo was bringing the ball down the right side. He read the defense, and actually waved Paul up the court to give him the ball. This time Paul takes K.G.'s screen, but his outlet is a wide open Ray Allen for a three.

In essence these are the same plays, but one was Paul's call, and the other was Rondo's. Paul made a bad read, forced the issue, and made a horrible turnover in one. On the second Rondo made a good read, pushed paul's button, and Paul got a good assist. Control.

Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2008, 04:37:25 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Kind of funny how Rondo's hand suddenly became hot when K.G. had to sit out a game, and Doc had to run offense through him.
Kinda funny that it also coincided after a very poor game and Doc called him out. Kinda funny that it coincided with one of the worst defensive teams in the league.

Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2008, 04:42:09 PM »

Offline rondilla

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The problem with Rondo, first and foremost, at the beginning of this season was that we ran an offense which continually took the ball out of his hands. That four game stretch was bad, and I think his groin pull and elbow injury didn't help, but it was the basic nature of our offense which was the main culprit. Personally, I think that Garnett's suspension was a blessing in that it forced Doc to actually give the kid the ball, and he came through for us. To Doc's credit he actually kept on giving Rondo the ball, and the kid kept on performing.

The talk of "aggressiveness" is misguided, IMO. How could Rondo be "aggressive" when he didn't have real control over the offense. Game after game he was dribbling down and handing off to Paul and Ray. They ran the offense, and they did not do a good job of it. Most possessions Rondo never touched the ball after he brought it up. We played 4 on 5 basketball BY DESIGN. We actually were the 27th ranked offense in the league 11 games into the season, efficiency-wise. Five games later - five games where Rondo actuially ran the offense - we are 14th. Pretty steep climb to say the least.

I just did a quick calculation regarding Rondo's PER over the last five games. It was about 13.7 after 11 games, and it is up to 17.85. To play 11 games at a 13.7 average and get it up to 17.85 in 5 means that Rondo's PER over these last 5 was approximately 27.0.  That is a very, very high PER and a huge one for a point guard. The main reason that he has that is he actually has had the ball in his hands the last 5 games. It has made a big difference. Mind you that he has not dominated the ball, he simply hasn't be forced to give it up almost every time down, and has actually had it passed back to him when he does pass it off. It is alot easier to be "aggressive" when things like that are happening.

Do I think that Rondo will keep this up at this level? I doubt it, but I do think that he can stay fairly close to it. I also think that the PER's of Paul, Ray and Kevin will also go up as a result. The beautiful part about all of this is that Rondo is a true point guard. Getting him the ball means that he will get everyone else involved as well. It is what he does. His defense is also a huge factor for us, and that really isn't related by his PER. Steals count, but Rondo'd defense goes beyond just getting those.

Doc actually thought that his "offensive lineup" was the one with House at the point - a spot up shooter. It turned out that it was the one with Rondo - with Rondo actually running it. Hey, it's better late than never that Doc learned this.

It seemed to me Rondo was the problem early on, not the system. He refused to shoot. He also got injured for a few days. Perhaps that hurt his confidence.

Rondo was not being forced to give up the ball. He was the one choosing not to be aggressive.

So us starting games off by having Rondo bring the ball down for the firts 8 minutes of a game, and either give it to Pierce and Ray was just Rondo "not being aggressive", and not Doc's real plan? I actually make a point of counting how many picks are set for the kid, and quite often he wouldn't see one until we were 8 minutes into a game. Now if Doc didn't want that to happen he could always say during a timeout "OK, we're going pick and roll with Rondo for the next 5 or 6 possessions", that is his prerogative. Did that actually happen? Nope... not until the Knick game. Then, to get his "offensive lineup" out there he'd have Eddie at the point... so that the guys who really ran the offense - Pierce and Allen - could have someone to space the floor for them.

Then Garnett gets suspended and, voila, Rondo gets going, and our offensive lineup doesn't include Eddie. It isn't as if that hadn't happened before, as Rondo went bonkers last season when K.G. went down and Doc had to run the offense through Rajon. Unfortunately, when K.G. came back Doc thought "Now my offense will really work wonders". That didn't happen, though, and it was our defense which had to carry us. This time Doc didn't say that, he actually let the kid keep the ball.

I find it interesting how people could talk of Ray's struggles last season having to do with his being taken out of his comfort zone. That he wasn't used to being a spot up shooter and was more comfortable shooting off the dribble, yet many of the same people think using a guy like Rondo as a spot up shooter was acceptable. It was not. The kid needs the ball, like most point guards do. He is getting the ball now, and has broken out as a result. Has this hurt his teammates? With the exception of Pierce, I would say no. Ray, K.G. and Perk are all playing better as a result. Paul seems to be coming around, though he still is forcing things a bit.... because he has been taken out of his comfort zone. Rondo has the ball more, so he has the ball less. The offense as a whole has been fanastic, so Paul will just have to adjust. Once he does, he'll be the better for it.

Has the system been radically altered to do this? Absolutely not. It was simply a matter of running more of Rondo's stuff and less of the other things. It needed to be done, and the benefits are obvious. We have actually won a couple of games where our defense did not win it for us. How often did that happen last season?
Rondilla, the debate about how much Rondo's performance is affected by Doc has been raging ever since Rondo's rookie season. Perhaps the argument you're using may have made sense 2 years ago, or even last year, but at this point I think your argument has run its course. Do you honestly think that after coaching Rondo for 2 full seasons, and winning an NBA Championship with Rondo as his point guard, that Doc still doesn't know how to use him properly? It can be tough to quantify if the the offense is or isn't being run through someone, but I know what I saw with Rondo during his slump. He just wasn't aggresive enough. Forget about how many times Rondo dribbled down the floor and immediately dished it off to Pierce or Ray, because we ran our offense that way a lot last year, and we're still going to see that a lot this year. Rondo has his share of possesions when he's the one making the plays, and earlier on in the season he wasn't making the right decisions. It's as simple as that. The decisions Doc makes are going to have an impact on what's happening on the court, I'm not denying that. But the NBA is a players league. The players are the ones you give the credit to in success, and the players are the ones you blame in failure. It's Rondo's responsibility to make the most out of his playing time. If anything, Rondo's sudden transformation proves that his slump had nothing to do with Doc. If Doc's offensive system wasn't "radically altered," then explain how Rondo's radical alteration has anything at all to do with the system. I don't buy that Doc slightly tweaked the gameplan, and that all of a sudden Rondo magically went from Marcus Banks to Chris Paul.

The answer is yes and no. Does Doc know how to use Rondo, and has he known before? Yes. Did Doc WANT to use Rondo that way? No. When K.G. went down last season, he was forced, by necessity, to actually give Rondo the ball more. Remember how well Rajon was playing in that stretch, and how well the team fared even without Garnett? The two games lost (@Cleve,@Orlando) came down to the final minute (the final second in Orlando), and we lost in those places with K.G. We also beat quality teams (Dallas and San Antonio) over that stretch. We came very close to going 9 and 0. That stretch killed K.G.'s MVP chances.

The problem with Doc is that he really likes running his offense through the wing players. It has always been his thing. He believes in that style of basketball. In Doc's perfect offense everyone is a shooter (including the center), and the spacing is perfect, allowing the wings to penetrate and score/playmake. The ball gets passed around a lot, Norman Dale-style. It was a minor miracle that he actually took a liking to Rondo (Doc couldn't stand him at first). The thing is that Rondo just played so hard, was such a good defender, and just made so many things happen that Doc had to play him (not to mention that Danny made sure he was the only point guard on the roster to help Doc along with this decision).

As I said before, the stuff for Rondo was already in the offense. They are just running MORE of that, and LESS of the other stuff. There is also more of an emphasis on getting the ball back to him. Simple. All that had to be donme was to put an emphasis on it. That is what happened last season when Garnett went down.

I have watched these games, and I know what you are talking about. Rondo has been passing up shots, and he wasn't aggressive. The thing is that he was also being asked to play in a way which ran completely counter to what he is about as a player. Paul and Ray were making the decisions for the offense, and they were making poor ones. Quite often they refused to pass the kid the ball, even when he was the ONLY logical choice. His opportunities were limited, and usually when he was shooting he was forcing the shot up. Meanwhile, the offense was being run into the ground.

When your point guard is dribbling the ball up the court and consistently handing the ball off to the wings, and clears off to the weakside, and then doesn't get it back, he has no control over what is happening. That was our offense until 5 games ago. It wasn't working, and when Doc wanted to get the offense going he would put in Eddie. Now Rajon has the ball and is making the decisions. If we run it through Paul or Ray, it is because Rondo is making that call. If he wants to keep it for himself, that is his call as well. Paul and Ray aren't exactly thrilled about this, by the way. If you haven't noticed they have the bad habit of blowing Rondo off in the back court on occassion. They also have the bad habit of completely ruining offensive possessions as a result of this.... and then the ball goes back to Rondo.

Using a player in the wrong way can take away his aggression. I watched Eric Snow criticize the Pistons for the way that they were using A.I. saying, essentially, the same thing I've been saying about Rondo... just with a different application. If a notorious gunner and vet can be made gun shy by his teams offense, you better believe a kid like Rondo can be. The beauty about using Rondo to his advantage , though, is that he is a true point guard. I've been saying this all along. Get him going - us him to his best advanatage - and he will make everyone else better. That is what guys like Rajon do. It is their thing. Marginalize them, and you are asking for problems.

I'm actually happy that Rondo is off to a slow start with his jumper. If he was hitting them at a good clip, Doc would have continued to use him as one. This way we get to see what happens when he is used the way that he should be.

The Celtics are also successful on offense when Paul & KG play a two man game. Yes, that same offense you tore to shreds gets people wide open jump shots and layups.

It's funny that you would argue that Doc's offense takes the aggressiveness away from Rondo when you're in favor of an offense that you admit takes the Celtics' best scorer out of his comfort zone. But Paul will just have to adjust according to you right?

Paul & Rondo have some things in common on offense, they're both not spot up shooters, and that's basically what Paul is reduced to when Rondo is running the offense.

I'm all in favor of giving the kid the show at different spots during the game, but to have three hall of famers out of their comfort zone on offense in favor of Rondo is absolutely ridiculous.

What we need is balance, it's tough because you have 5 guys on offense who can be successful in the right spots (yes even Perk). But you can't blame Doc for deferring to the big three over Rondo.

What Rajon has to do is stay aggressive when he doesn't have ball, that means picking up the opposing point guard full court- all the time. Pushing the ball off of rebounds etc...I saw Rondo walking the ball up the court & giving a lackluster effort on defense too many times during his slump.

What does that say about maturity of Rajon?

I agree, he can be special when he's running the show. But he doesn't need to ball to be aggressive, one of the best games he played this season was in Toronto. A game ironically that was dominated by the post play of Perkins & Garnett.

All he did during that game was pressure Calderon on defense and push the ball on offense...all while getting himself lay ups and his teammates into the offense quickly. There are many things Rondo can do help his team and most of them don't come from guys setting picks for him.

Actually, it is just Pierce who is out of his comfort zone, not K.G. or Ray. Those two have been cleaning up, playing super efficient basketball with Rondo in control. It isn't even as if Paul can't succeed this way, he just has to make the adjustment. An adjustment which will ultimately benefit him as Rondo gets him good shots, and the ball where he likes it. He just doesn't have the ball as much, and he knows that.

It isn't as if Paul has been having a great season, or that running the offense through him has been wonderful. He had two awesome games in a row, and has been very inefficient overall. His defense and rebounding is there, and he's getting to the line, but his shooting and turnovers were sub par. He is shooting .408 from the field on the season. That is not like him.

Our offense was a joke until five games ago. 27th out of 30 teams in efficiency. That is wretched. Over the last 5 we have been scoring 108 ppg shooting .519 as a team and .421 from the arc. Do you realize how awful were were before? We were scoring in the low 90's, shooting in the low 40's from the field and the low 30's from the arc. It was terrible. The turnovers have gone down, too. This is the way to play.

Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2008, 04:43:33 PM »

Offline rondilla

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Kind of funny how Rondo's hand suddenly became hot when K.G. had to sit out a game, and Doc had to run offense through him.
Kinda funny that it also coincided after a very poor game and Doc called him out. Kinda funny that it coincided with one of the worst defensive teams in the league.

Kind of funny that you pick on one quote and avoid the logic behind it.

Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2008, 04:46:31 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Kind of funny how Rondo's hand suddenly became hot when K.G. had to sit out a game, and Doc had to run offense through him.
Kinda funny that it also coincided after a very poor game and Doc called him out. Kinda funny that it coincided with one of the worst defensive teams in the league.

Kind of funny that you pick on one quote and avoid the logic behind it.

As I've mentioned before, I'm pretty much done arguing about Rondo with you. But I thought that sentence the epitome of your biased ideas and observations when it regards Rondo. You disregard all the facts that don't fit in your "Rondo story", and only use the ones that conviniently twists the truth in your favor.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2008, 04:52:20 PM by BudweiserCeltic »

Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2008, 04:52:05 PM »

Offline rondilla

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Kind of funny how Rondo's hand suddenly became hot when K.G. had to sit out a game, and Doc had to run offense through him.
Kinda funny that it also coincided after a very poor game and Doc called him out. Kinda funny that it coincided with one of the worst defensive teams in the league.

Kind of funny that you pick on one quote and avoid the logic behind it.

As I've mentioned before, I'm pretty much done arguing about Rondo with you. But I thought that sentence the epitome of your biased ideas and observations when it regards Rondo.

You have been arguing with me? News to me. I've been debating others, and they have at least tried to make a case for their side. You have been chiming in with one line posts. I'm not impressed.

Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2008, 04:58:34 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Kind of funny how Rondo's hand suddenly became hot when K.G. had to sit out a game, and Doc had to run offense through him.
Kinda funny that it also coincided after a very poor game and Doc called him out. Kinda funny that it coincided with one of the worst defensive teams in the league.

Kind of funny that you pick on one quote and avoid the logic behind it.

As I've mentioned before, I'm pretty much done arguing about Rondo with you. But I thought that sentence the epitome of your biased ideas and observations when it regards Rondo.

You have been arguing with me? News to me. I've been debating others, and they have at least tried to make a case for their side. You have been chiming in with one line posts. I'm not impressed.

That's because since you resurfaced I haven't bothered. I made my argument once, and then you brought that "Doc ruined Rondo" crap you had been using all throughout last year. You had shown that you clearly don't care for reasoned logic with facts that contradict your Rondo stance no matter how truthful they may be, which makes arguing Rondo with you pointless and not worth the time.

That previous post was simply an example of how you ommit all pertinent factors that don't support your Rondo story.

Good reading your posts when they are about some other subject, but when it comes to Rondo, no matter how logically you try to paint your stance, your conclusions are completely flawed because of your bias.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2008, 05:10:21 PM by BudweiserCeltic »

Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2008, 05:46:28 PM »

Offline rondilla

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Kind of funny how Rondo's hand suddenly became hot when K.G. had to sit out a game, and Doc had to run offense through him.
Kinda funny that it also coincided after a very poor game and Doc called him out. Kinda funny that it coincided with one of the worst defensive teams in the league.

Kind of funny that you pick on one quote and avoid the logic behind it.

As I've mentioned before, I'm pretty much done arguing about Rondo with you. But I thought that sentence the epitome of your biased ideas and observations when it regards Rondo.

You have been arguing with me? News to me. I've been debating others, and they have at least tried to make a case for their side. You have been chiming in with one line posts. I'm not impressed.

That's because since you resurfaced I haven't bothered. I made my argument once, and then you brought that "Doc ruined Rondo" crap you had been using all throughout last year. You had shown that you clearly don't care for reasoned logic with facts that contradict your Rondo stance no matter how truthful they may be, which makes arguing Rondo with you pointless and not worth the time.

That previous post was simply an example of how you ommit all pertinent factors that don't support your Rondo story.

Good reading your posts when they are about some other subject, but when it comes to Rondo, no matter how logically you try to paint your stance, your conclusions are completely flawed because of your bias.

I quoted some of my posts from the Rondo=B.J. Armstrong thread. I think that I havbe an extremely good handle on the facts, reasoned logic, and all of that good stuff. Hell, I even surprised myself. It is one thing to know after the fact,it is quite another to know before.

Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #43 on: November 28, 2008, 05:51:20 PM »

Offline Toine43

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The problem with Rondo, first and foremost, at the beginning of this season was that we ran an offense which continually took the ball out of his hands. That four game stretch was bad, and I think his groin pull and elbow injury didn't help, but it was the basic nature of our offense which was the main culprit. Personally, I think that Garnett's suspension was a blessing in that it forced Doc to actually give the kid the ball, and he came through for us. To Doc's credit he actually kept on giving Rondo the ball, and the kid kept on performing.

The talk of "aggressiveness" is misguided, IMO. How could Rondo be "aggressive" when he didn't have real control over the offense. Game after game he was dribbling down and handing off to Paul and Ray. They ran the offense, and they did not do a good job of it. Most possessions Rondo never touched the ball after he brought it up. We played 4 on 5 basketball BY DESIGN. We actually were the 27th ranked offense in the league 11 games into the season, efficiency-wise. Five games later - five games where Rondo actuially ran the offense - we are 14th. Pretty steep climb to say the least.

I just did a quick calculation regarding Rondo's PER over the last five games. It was about 13.7 after 11 games, and it is up to 17.85. To play 11 games at a 13.7 average and get it up to 17.85 in 5 means that Rondo's PER over these last 5 was approximately 27.0.  That is a very, very high PER and a huge one for a point guard. The main reason that he has that is he actually has had the ball in his hands the last 5 games. It has made a big difference. Mind you that he has not dominated the ball, he simply hasn't be forced to give it up almost every time down, and has actually had it passed back to him when he does pass it off. It is alot easier to be "aggressive" when things like that are happening.

Do I think that Rondo will keep this up at this level? I doubt it, but I do think that he can stay fairly close to it. I also think that the PER's of Paul, Ray and Kevin will also go up as a result. The beautiful part about all of this is that Rondo is a true point guard. Getting him the ball means that he will get everyone else involved as well. It is what he does. His defense is also a huge factor for us, and that really isn't related by his PER. Steals count, but Rondo'd defense goes beyond just getting those.

Doc actually thought that his "offensive lineup" was the one with House at the point - a spot up shooter. It turned out that it was the one with Rondo - with Rondo actually running it. Hey, it's better late than never that Doc learned this.

It seemed to me Rondo was the problem early on, not the system. He refused to shoot. He also got injured for a few days. Perhaps that hurt his confidence.

Rondo was not being forced to give up the ball. He was the one choosing not to be aggressive.

So us starting games off by having Rondo bring the ball down for the firts 8 minutes of a game, and either give it to Pierce and Ray was just Rondo "not being aggressive", and not Doc's real plan? I actually make a point of counting how many picks are set for the kid, and quite often he wouldn't see one until we were 8 minutes into a game. Now if Doc didn't want that to happen he could always say during a timeout "OK, we're going pick and roll with Rondo for the next 5 or 6 possessions", that is his prerogative. Did that actually happen? Nope... not until the Knick game. Then, to get his "offensive lineup" out there he'd have Eddie at the point... so that the guys who really ran the offense - Pierce and Allen - could have someone to space the floor for them.

Then Garnett gets suspended and, voila, Rondo gets going, and our offensive lineup doesn't include Eddie. It isn't as if that hadn't happened before, as Rondo went bonkers last season when K.G. went down and Doc had to run the offense through Rajon. Unfortunately, when K.G. came back Doc thought "Now my offense will really work wonders". That didn't happen, though, and it was our defense which had to carry us. This time Doc didn't say that, he actually let the kid keep the ball.

I find it interesting how people could talk of Ray's struggles last season having to do with his being taken out of his comfort zone. That he wasn't used to being a spot up shooter and was more comfortable shooting off the dribble, yet many of the same people think using a guy like Rondo as a spot up shooter was acceptable. It was not. The kid needs the ball, like most point guards do. He is getting the ball now, and has broken out as a result. Has this hurt his teammates? With the exception of Pierce, I would say no. Ray, K.G. and Perk are all playing better as a result. Paul seems to be coming around, though he still is forcing things a bit.... because he has been taken out of his comfort zone. Rondo has the ball more, so he has the ball less. The offense as a whole has been fanastic, so Paul will just have to adjust. Once he does, he'll be the better for it.

Has the system been radically altered to do this? Absolutely not. It was simply a matter of running more of Rondo's stuff and less of the other things. It needed to be done, and the benefits are obvious. We have actually won a couple of games where our defense did not win it for us. How often did that happen last season?
As big of a Rondo fan and schill as I am, and I am one, even I have to admit that Rondo's 4 game slump had nothing to do with the system or schemes being run and had everything to do with Rondo's performance and decision making. Rondo shot 5 for 25 (20%) from the field and I am sure if I went back and counted the amount of times he passed up on layups to pass out of the paint for an outside shot or other option I will find a great, great many of occurances where that happened.

Sorry, but Rondo is not going to have a ton of plays called for him where picks are being set up to free him up. He is this team's fourth offensive option. Fourth. His job is to facilitate, score on the fast break as an outlet on steals, and hit the mid range jumper when left open due to excellent defense elsewhere. When the mismatch is there he needs to take advantage of it and get a bit selfish then because that mismatch elevates him from fourth scoring option to first or second.

When used in the above manner and Rondo is making the right decisions about where and when to strike and when to finish and when not to he is a weapon. When hesitant as he was in that four game stretch and for various other games this early season, he has a less than stellar effect on this team. When knowing he has the mismatch, he takes advantage of it and yet still creates for others while scoring off his defense, he is a weapon. An All-Star caliber weapon, which is what he has been the last 5 games.

I could be wrong about this, but I think that you have been watching this team too long and misunderstand how a guy like Rondo should be used. A good example of how to do it is how Popovich has used Parker from his rookie season on. Setting picks for Parker, as with Rondo, is a mismatch in itself. Stopping them from getting into the paint is easier said than done, and "going under the pick" isn't a reliable way of effecting that. The only way to consistently stop them from doing so is to switch, but that opens up a whole other can of worms.

It has taken Doc a long time to figure this out. He drove Darrell Armstrong crazy with his wing run offense in Orlando, and Gary Payton usually ignored him when he was here. Doc's ideal offense was run by the wings, with the point guard being used as a spot up shooter. Why do think that he actually thought that Eddie House was a better fit in it than a real point guard? It isn't as if he just started doing that when he got here, or started doing it when Ray joined Paul - he tried to have Ricky run it, and even Wally. His track record of having troubles with his point guards has revolved around this issue.

Ray and Paul are good playmakers for wings, but they are not on Rondo's level. Not even close. They do not have his handle, his speed, his court vision or his passing ability. We were dead last in turnovers (still are actually, that's how many we had). Over these past 5 games we are only averaging 14.4 (18th fewest in the league), and that is with the second unit and the end of the bench throwing the ball all over the place in the fourth quarters of our blowout wins! What is the reason behind this? Rondo running the offense, not watching others cough it up while he watches from the weakside. He simply has the ball in his hands more. Not dominating it, just controlling where it goes.

The crazy part is that his teammates are actually not used to playing off of him yet. Paul, K.G. and Perk have had a lot of "Holy ----, I'm wide open" moments over these last 5 games. In complete shock that they have such an easy look at the basket. Rondo is freestyling out there making something out of nothing, and they are still plugged into the mechanical offense we were running before "I pass it to you, then you pass it to him, then he passes it to this guy, then this guy passes it to that guy, and then if everything works out OK I get it back here and maybe I'm open."

I think that K.G. has been unnerved by how wide open he is getting on jumpers via Rondo. He's used to a hand being in his face. He'll get over that. Rondo is hitting Perk wide open underneath, but Perk isn't anticipating the pass. He catches it, THEN he steps in, THEN he gathers himself (bringing his hands down in the process), and THEN he tries to dunk it- all of which allows the defense a chance to recover. Once he gets used to it, he'll be stepping into the pass and dunking it, or laying it up, much more quickly. He's getting Paul wide open looks from the top of the arc where he can either shoot a three or straight-line drive right down the middle of the lane. Paul is not used to this. The only guy who is actually already comfortable is Ray, because playing like this just feeds into his game and he's done it before.

If we keep on playing this way the best is yet to come, and it was not just a matter of Rondo being "more aggressive". You cannot use a player any which way you feel like and then reasonably expect good results. More so, a guy like Rondo has a fundamental unbderstanding of where the ball is supposed to go. Paul and Ray do not. They are good passers for their positions, but any offense needs to have someone at the wheel in CONTROL of what is happening out there. When Rondo was coming down ,on possession after possession, passing it off to them he did not have that control. It makes a big difference when he does.
Is this 2008? I still feel like I'm reading a post from 2006 or 2007, when everything that you're saying would make sense (although it still wouldn't be true). The other players aren't used to playing with Rondo yet? KG and Pierce have to adjust to being so wide open because of Rondo? ::) Give me a freakin' break! I love Rondo as much as the next guy - I have a long history of defending him against Delonte West fanatics and others, but your love for Rondo is even making me sick.


Eddie House - for THREEEEEEE!

Re: New expectations for Rondo?
« Reply #44 on: November 28, 2008, 06:02:15 PM »

Offline Toine43

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Rondilla is MikeDfromNP on steroids.


Eddie House - for THREEEEEEE!