Pierce: Top 5? Top 10?

[moiso]

McGrady has always been a top player talent-wise.  But he is physically and mentally weak compared to Wade and Kobe.  There is no comparison when all are healthy.

[youcanthandlethetruth113]

I don't really have much to contribute to this thread, but I thought I'd at least point out that after the Detroit game, Tayshaun Prince said Paul Pierce was the best small forward in the NBA right now.

[Levis107]

Also, Pierce has taken his team out of the first round.

Thats a silly thing to hold against a player. Was/is Pierce a better player than KG when KG and the Wolves had 7 straight first round exits? Was Carmelo a better player than LeBron when he made the playoffs and Lebron didn't?

Team success isn't a good judge of how good a single player is, especially when the talent around him isn't very good. Tracy McGrady was a great player before his back started on him. After that he lost some of his game, and just as importantly misses too many games every year with something new.

Boston fans should be sympathetic to back injuries and a star player not having much talent around him. He's not an elite player anymore, but injuries and age do that to a lot players.

I made that point in regard to how clutch or how the player steps up in the postseason, along with the other points I made...Not just that as the sole reason Pierce is better. That was always the knock of Garnett too when he was with Minnesota.  We've seen McGrady-led teams blow 3-1 leads in the playoff.  I just don't think it's a coincidence that every playoff team he has been on has had an early exit.

[Birdbrain]

A healthy let alone broken down T-back doesn't belong on any top 10 list.

LBJ
Pierce
Paul
Kobe
Wade
Garnett
Amare
Duncan
Howard
Joe Johnson







Anyone else.

[Fafnir]

Also, Pierce has taken his team out of the first round.

Thats a silly thing to hold against a player. Was/is Pierce a better player than KG when KG and the Wolves had 7 straight first round exits? Was Carmelo a better player than LeBron when he made the playoffs and Lebron didn't?

Team success isn't a good judge of how good a single player is, especially when the talent around him isn't very good. Tracy McGrady was a great player before his back started on him. After that he lost some of his game, and just as importantly misses too many games every year with something new.

Boston fans should be sympathetic to back injuries and a star player not having much talent around him. He's not an elite player anymore, but injuries and age do that to a lot players.

I made that point in regard to how clutch or how the player steps up in the postseason, along with the other points I made...Not just that as the sole reason Pierce is better. That was always the knock of Garnett too when he was with Minnesota.  We've seen McGrady-led teams blow 3-1 leads in the playoff.  I just don't think it's a coincidence that every playoff team he has been on has had an early exit.

How many of those teams Garnett/McGrady were favored to win their first round matchup? I'm going to look at the records and the point differentials of the teams when I get home from class. I'll have to look at their respective stats, honestly I'll probably start a new thread as we're veering off topic. I don't think it was a conicidence in either case. I think McGrady and KG were both great players on average teams, who we should have expected to lose. We've seen what KG could do once he was on a great team.

I don't trust people's judgment of "clutch" without some background stats/facts because we've all seen great players kill themselves for a win and still get smashed by a better overall team. Mostly people just remember the Ws and the Ls. Team success doesn't make a player "better". Kobe has always been Kobe. He only won the MVP last year because he got Bynum and Gasol to finally provide him with a good enough "team" to win.

[Mideon]

PP a top 5 player? With a PER of 18 this year on 40% shooting, and 20 last year? LOL! Look, I think he's a great player, but by no means is he top 5, and he is nowhere near the overall impact player that KG is. Kobe, LBJ, Wade, CP3, KG, Duncan, Howard are all clearly above Pierce. And a good case could be made for guys like Bosh, Amare, J. Johnson, Deron, etc. Overall, I'd say borderline top 10 (but not definite), and definitely not top 5. And for anyone putting him in the same class as Kobe or LBJ...please put down the Kool-Aid.

[xmuscularghandix]

Kobe
Pierce
Lebron
Wade
Paul

Do you legitimately think that Paul Pierce is a better player than Lebron James?

yes, i do. make lebron go to his left, make him hit jumpshots, poor clutch free throw shooter. its like well known how to hold back lebron, granted you need to have the skills to pulloff these tasks. but what are pauls keys to shutting him down?

make him go to his left, no big deal
make him shoot jumpshots, he'd love to
make him shoot 3's, he'll make them if you back off
play tight on him, he's the best finisher in the nba.

[Big Ticket]

Right now I cannot in good conscious put him in front of LeBron, Paul, Wade, or Kobe.

I also still think KG, Howard, and Duncan are still a bit ahead of him, but Pierce is in that group.

So... top 5?  Maybe barely.

Top 10?  More confident with that, yes.

[Hoyo de Monterrey]

Right now I cannot in good conscious put him in front of LeBron, Paul, Wade, or Kobe.

I also still think KG, Howard, and Duncan are still a bit ahead of him, but Pierce is in that group.

So... top 5?  Maybe barely.

Top 10?  More confident with that, yes.

I'm right there with you... KG and Duncan are ahead of him in that group with LeBron, Paul, Wade, and Kobe. I like Pierce at #7, just ahead of Howard (who's a freak of nature, and not even close to finished improving).

[Big Ticket]

Also, Pierce has taken his team out of the first round.

Thats a silly thing to hold against a player. Was/is Pierce a better player than KG when KG and the Wolves had 7 straight first round exits? Was Carmelo a better player than LeBron when he made the playoffs and Lebron didn't?

Team success isn't a good judge of how good a single player is, especially when the talent around him isn't very good. Tracy McGrady was a great player before his back started on him. After that he lost some of his game, and just as importantly misses too many games every year with something new.

Boston fans should be sympathetic to back injuries and a star player not having much talent around him. He's not an elite player anymore, but injuries and age do that to a lot players.

I made that point in regard to how clutch or how the player steps up in the postseason, along with the other points I made...Not just that as the sole reason Pierce is better. That was always the knock of Garnett too when he was with Minnesota.  We've seen McGrady-led teams blow 3-1 leads in the playoff.  I just don't think it's a coincidence that every playoff team he has been on has had an early exit.

How many of those teams Garnett/McGrady were favored to win their first round matchup? I'm going to look at the records and the point differentials of the teams when I get home from class. I'll have to look at their respective stats, honestly I'll probably start a new thread as we're veering off topic. I don't think it was a conicidence in either case. I think McGrady and KG were both great players on average teams, who we should have expected to lose. We've seen what KG could do once he was on a great team.

I don't trust people's judgment of "clutch" without some background stats/facts because we've all seen great players kill themselves for a win and still get smashed by a better overall team. Mostly people just remember the Ws and the Ls. Team success doesn't make a player "better". Kobe has always been Kobe. He only won the MVP last year because he got Bynum and Gasol to finally provide him with a good enough "team" to win.

I can tell you this much off the top of my head...

1) Outside of one season, maybe 1999 or 2000 when KG was still a youngin', he has improved his play noticeably in the playoffs.

2) The Wolves never lost a single playoff series that they were expected to win.  True, great players should win some as the underdogs... but it just didn't work out that way for KG.

3) No objective fan can deny that KG only appeared in one playoffs with anything close to a 'decent' supporting cast, and in that year, they won every series they should've.  They took the Lakers to 6 games with Darrick Martin, Fred Hoiber, and.... yep... Kevin Garnett sharing point guard duties for the injured Sam Cassell and Troy Hudson.

A team of KG, Sprewell, Szczberiak, Hoiberg, Olowokandi, and Ervin Johnson took Shaq, Kobe, Malone, Payton, and Fisher to 6 games (and would've been 7 if not for the best game of Kareem Rush's career... 6 three pointers) and guess what... it wasn't because of stellar play from the Kandiman...

[Fafnir]

Also, Pierce has taken his team out of the first round.

Thats a silly thing to hold against a player. Was/is Pierce a better player than KG when KG and the Wolves had 7 straight first round exits? Was Carmelo a better player than LeBron when he made the playoffs and Lebron didn't?

Team success isn't a good judge of how good a single player is, especially when the talent around him isn't very good. Tracy McGrady was a great player before his back started on him. After that he lost some of his game, and just as importantly misses too many games every year with something new.

Boston fans should be sympathetic to back injuries and a star player not having much talent around him. He's not an elite player anymore, but injuries and age do that to a lot players.

I made that point in regard to how clutch or how the player steps up in the postseason, along with the other points I made...Not just that as the sole reason Pierce is better. That was always the knock of Garnett too when he was with Minnesota.  We've seen McGrady-led teams blow 3-1 leads in the playoff.  I just don't think it's a coincidence that every playoff team he has been on has had an early exit.

How many of those teams Garnett/McGrady were favored to win their first round matchup? I'm going to look at the records and the point differentials of the teams when I get home from class. I'll have to look at their respective stats, honestly I'll probably start a new thread as we're veering off topic. I don't think it was a conicidence in either case. I think McGrady and KG were both great players on average teams, who we should have expected to lose. We've seen what KG could do once he was on a great team.

I don't trust people's judgment of "clutch" without some background stats/facts because we've all seen great players kill themselves for a win and still get smashed by a better overall team. Mostly people just remember the Ws and the Ls. Team success doesn't make a player "better". Kobe has always been Kobe. He only won the MVP last year because he got Bynum and Gasol to finally provide him with a good enough "team" to win.

I can tell you this much off the top of my head...

1) Outside of one season, maybe 1999 or 2000 when KG was still a youngin', he has improved his play noticeably in the playoffs.

2) The Wolves never lost a single playoff series that they were expected to win.  True, great players should win some as the underdogs... but it just didn't work out that way for KG.

3) No objective fan can deny that KG only appeared in one playoffs with anything close to a 'decent' supporting cast, and in that year, they won every series they should've.  They took the Lakers to 6 games with Darrick Martin, Fred Hoiber, and.... yep... Kevin Garnett sharing point guard duties for the injured Sam Cassell and Troy Hudson.

A team of KG, Sprewell, Szczberiak, Hoiberg, Olowokandi, and Ervin Johnson took Shaq, Kobe, Malone, Payton, and Fisher to 6 games (and would've been 7 if not for the best game of Kareem Rush's career... 6 three pointers) and guess what... it wasn't because of stellar play from the Kandiman...

Yup that is pretty much my recollection as well. I wouldn't be surprised if McGrady was in similar situations as well. Maybe not but I'll take a look. TP for the summary.

[thecaptain34]

I don't really have much to contribute to this thread, but I thought I'd at least point out that after the Detroit game, Tayshaun Prince said Paul Pierce was the best small forward in the NBA right now.

Are you sure he said that? I heard him say Paul Pierce has the best footwork in the NBA at the small forward position but not that hes the best small forward in the NBA

[Vermont Green]

I am going to jump back in with a couple of points.  First McGrady.  I think he had his day where he was elite but I think injuries have made him kind of like Bill Walton.  There are injuries that you recover from and then there is the kind of injury that Walton had where he just could ever play again at the same level.  I don't know exactly what is going on with McGrady from a medical standpoint but when I watch him play, I think he has just broken down like Walton and will never be back.  I could be wrong (it happens all the time) but that is what I see.

On Garnett, after watching the playoffs last year, I just can't say that KG is better than PP.  It is amazing that we have two guys on our team that are in the discussion but I think we saw the KG ceiling in the playoffs.  A very high ceiling, but a ceiling slightly below Pierce's ceiling.

[LB3533]

Also, Pierce has taken his team out of the first round.

Team success isn't a good judge of how good a single player is, especially when the talent around him isn't very good. Tracy McGrady was a great player before his back started on him.

I totally agree Fafnir....team success is not a good judge of individual success.

Pierce has been on bad teams, but he was still a great player.

T-Mac was a great player when he was a Magic and he still is (when healthy) on the Rockets.

But there has to be something said for durability and that is something Pierce has over Wade and T-Mac.

Edit: And KG has over Tim Duncan. A lot of "experts" still claim that Tim Duncan is the "better" player than KG (over their career), course I don't buy it. Duncan certainly has the more team success over the careers, but KG has always been the better player overall and efficiency wise, plus KG's durability gives him the edge over Duncan.

Edit #2: I just double checked KG's career games played.....

First 10 years: missed 13 games (775 out of 788 @ 98% "healthy" rate)

Next 2 years: missed 12 games (11 of which were probably "healthy scratches" came at the tail end of each respective season because KG's T-Wolves team sucked). Also if you remember recently just last year about when Glenn Taylor, the T-Wolves owner quoted in the papers how KG "quit on the team", it was probably in reference to KG sitting out the last few games of a bad season (Ricky Davis sat out too).

Last year KG missed 9 games due to injury and had 2 games where Doc gave him and the rest of the Big 3 the night off.

This year KG has missed 1 game...the bogus suspension.

So, in my estimation....KG has *possibly missed 22 games due to injury out of a possible 1034 games over 13 career seasons (I am not counting the 14 games of this year, and this season is not over so why count it at all?).

So that is 1012 games played out of 1034 games possible which is a rate @ 97.9%!

*I did not go that far back to research exactly why KG missed 13 games over his first 10 years...so I am going on the assumption it was due to injury, one or two of them might not be the case however.

If you just factor in games played over games possible....for his 13 year career (not including this season) KG has played 1012 games out of 1046 which is still a remarkable 96.6% Iron Man rate.

And then factor in the intensity level at which this KG guy plays at....night in and night out....all those plane rides....all those bus rides.....wow, it's amazing this guy didn't just drop dead from exhaustion!

[Big Ticket]

I can help out a bit LB3533...

KG missed 5 games in the 96-97 season due to injury.  If you remember, this was before the NBA's current nightly 12 active, 3 inactive rule... at that time if you missed 1 game due to injury, it was a rule that you HAD to be on the injured list for a minimum of 5 games.  I don't remember exactly, but I think KG was only really injured for 2 of the 5.

The 1 missed game in each of 99-00, 00-01, and 01-02 were either from suspension (he got ejected from a game against Utah and threw the ball wayyyy into the stands... luckily he had scored 10 points to keep an amazing double digit point games streak going) or healthy scratches to end the season.

The 6 missed games the last two seasons with the Wolves both involved the healthy scratches (they called it "knee tendinitis") at the end of the years.

I've been watching KG for a..... well... a long time.  I can honestly say he has truly missed 11-13 games due to injury in his 13+ seasons.

And Glen Taylor said he tanked it.... god that p---ed me off.