Is Harden the greatest offensive player of All-Time?

[Green-18]

This is what Daryl Morey would like you to believe.....

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25681961/houston-rockets-gm-daryl-morey-says-james-harden-best-offensive-player-all

I have a hard time entertaining the conversation.  Harden should be included in the conversation as one of the greatest high volume scorers in NBA history.  Beyond that, I can't put him anywhere close to being the single greatest offensive player of All-Time.  His playoff track record automatically disqualifies him from the debate.

How can he be labeled as the greatest when he can't lay claim to the best offensive season in the modern era?  Steph Curry's 2014-15 campaign is far superior.  Harden has the edge in raw stats, but the efficiency isn't even close.  Durant is also far superior IMO.

MJ would obviously be the first comparison in the GOAT argument.  Jordan was able to match Harden's TS% with a lower usage rate.  He accomplished this with only 1 3PA per game, compared to Harden's 10+.  Jordan's ORtg was also superior.  Jordan also get's credit for being top 5 in defensive win shares during the same period. 

We can obviously extend this conversation to guys like Wilt, Kareem, Durant, LeBron, etc., but I figured there isn't much left to be said regarding Harden.

[slamtheking]

owner hyperbole for his superstar player.

this topic would start with Wilt and pretty much end with Wilt. 

[Moranis]

owner hyperbole for his superstar player.

this topic would start with Wilt and pretty much end with Wilt.

Yeah it is Wilt and it is Wilt by a wide margin with no competition.

[Monkhouse]

How about winning a ring first...

[gouki88]

owner hyperbole for his superstar player.

this topic would start with Wilt and pretty much end with Wilt.

Yeah it is Wilt and it is Wilt by a wide margin with no competition.

Yeah, not even really close. If he'd chased numbers his whole career they'd be even more video-game like.

This title made me cringe a bit. C'mon Daryl

[Green-18]

owner hyperbole for his superstar player.

this topic would start with Wilt and pretty much end with Wilt.

It definitely starts with Wilt, but there are plenty of arguments to be made for other players.  For example, Kareem averaged 35 PPG in 1971 while shooting 57% from the field.  Wilt never accomplished this efficiency in a season where he averaged 30+ PPG.  Could Kareem have put up 50 PPG on 40 shot attempts in 1962?  I would like to think the answer is yes, especially when you consider that he was a far superior free throw shooter.  On the flip side, Kareem never lead the NBA in assists.  Wilt accomplished this in 1968 while scoring 24 PPG.  He also lead the NBA in FG% during the same period.


 

[Jvalin]

He's not even the greatest offensive player of his generation.

KD > Harden all day long

Imo, it's all about the system. I mean, D'Antoni made Steve Nash a 2-time MVP. With that many possessions per game, it becomes easier for talented offensive players to post big numbers across the board.

Was just looking the box score from last night's game. Harden took 23 3-pointers! Twenty-three three-pointers for crying out loud!!

[Green-18]

He's not even the greatest offensive player of his generation.

KD > Harden all day long

D'Antoni made Steve Nash a 2-time MVP. Imo, it's all about the system. With that many possessions per game it becomes easier for talented offensive players to post big numbers across the board.

Curry also gets the edge IMO.  The only realistic argument for Harden is that he's on par with Durant as an isolation player.  He's honestly better in that regard.  I don't think KD could bring the ball up the court on every possession and match Harden's output.  The issue for Harden is that none of that really matters in a team sport.  Durant can move without the ball and he is much more deadly when gets the ball in his sweet spots.  Harden exerts twice the effort for the same number of points. 

[Silky]

Morey has gone and lost his mind.

[Jvalin]

He's not even the greatest offensive player of his generation.

KD > Harden all day long

D'Antoni made Steve Nash a 2-time MVP. Imo, it's all about the system. With that many possessions per game it becomes easier for talented offensive players to post big numbers across the board.

Curry also gets the edge IMO.  The only realistic argument for Harden is that he's on par with Durant as an isolation player.  He's honestly better in that regard.  I don't think KD could bring the ball up the court on every possession and match Harden's output.  The issue for Harden is that none of that really matters in a team sport.  Durant can move without the ball and he is much more deadly when gets the ball in his sweet spots.  Harden exerts twice the effort for the same number of points.

Was a fan of Harden's game during his days in OKC. Not a fan of his game in Houston (much less since D'Antoni took the helm). He is obviously a very talented player but imo he is not a winner. He is an entertainer.

- plays no D whatsoever
- terrible shot selection
- at his best when playing at fast pace --> great player for the regular season, not so much for the playoffs

I'm with you on Steph being better than Harden. Only mentioned KD cause imo he's the best offensive player of his generation.

[Green-18]

He's not even the greatest offensive player of his generation.

KD > Harden all day long

D'Antoni made Steve Nash a 2-time MVP. Imo, it's all about the system. With that many possessions per game it becomes easier for talented offensive players to post big numbers across the board.

Curry also gets the edge IMO.  The only realistic argument for Harden is that he's on par with Durant as an isolation player.  He's honestly better in that regard.  I don't think KD could bring the ball up the court on every possession and match Harden's output.  The issue for Harden is that none of that really matters in a team sport.  Durant can move without the ball and he is much more deadly when gets the ball in his sweet spots.  Harden exerts twice the effort for the same number of points.

Was a fan of Harden's game during his days in OKC. Not o fan of his game in Houston (much less since D'Antoni took the helm). He is obviously a very talented player but imo he is not a winner. He is an entertainer.

- plays no D whatsoever
- terrible shot selection
- at his best when playing at fast pace -> great player for the regular season, not so much for the playoffs

I'm with you on Steph being better than Harden. Only mentioned KD cause imo he's the best offensive player of his generation.

It's Durant for sure, at least when it comes to pure scoring.  Overall, it's neck and neck between LeBron and KD.

[Jvalin]

He's not even the greatest offensive player of his generation.

KD > Harden all day long

D'Antoni made Steve Nash a 2-time MVP. Imo, it's all about the system. With that many possessions per game it becomes easier for talented offensive players to post big numbers across the board.

Curry also gets the edge IMO.  The only realistic argument for Harden is that he's on par with Durant as an isolation player.  He's honestly better in that regard.  I don't think KD could bring the ball up the court on every possession and match Harden's output.  The issue for Harden is that none of that really matters in a team sport.  Durant can move without the ball and he is much more deadly when gets the ball in his sweet spots.  Harden exerts twice the effort for the same number of points.

Was a fan of Harden's game during his days in OKC. Not o fan of his game in Houston (much less since D'Antoni took the helm). He is obviously a very talented player but imo he is not a winner. He is an entertainer.

- plays no D whatsoever
- terrible shot selection
- at his best when playing at fast pace -> great player for the regular season, not so much for the playoffs

I'm with you on Steph being better than Harden. Only mentioned KD cause imo he's the best offensive player of his generation.

It's Durant for sure, at least when it comes to pure scoring.  Overall, it's neck and neck between LeBron and KD.

Overall, it's hands down LeBron in my book.

defense: LeBron > KD (although he's been saving his energy for offense as of late)
court vision: LeBron > KD
ball handling: LeBron > KD
rebounding: LeBron ≈ KD
scoring-shooting: LeBron < KD

[Tr1boy]

One of the most selfish .. yes

[ederson]

How about winning a ring first...

it has nothing to do with the initial argument

One of the most selfish .. yes

i would be much better argument to post "i hate him"! Of course a scorer is going to be selfish shoot first player ! Harden this season takes 4 more shots than Curry (nobody has called him selfish) but plays 3mpg more! I"d much rather have Curry than Harden but let's be serious

[PhoSita]

Jordan still holds the record for most Offensive Win Shares in a regular season with 15.2 back in 87-88.


Harden is certainly near the top of the list in terms of a guy who combines a very high usage rate with very high scoring efficiency.


He generates more three pointers, for himself or teammates, than anybody else in NBA history. 

I'd also wager he's got the record for three pointers made + free throws made in a season.  Last year he had over 600 free throws made and over 250 three pointers made.


That doesn't make him the greatest offensive player of all time by any means.  But he is unique in the annals of NBA history in the character of his offensive production.

Personally I find Harden impressive but unappealing.  He treats basketball like a parlour game, not an expression of teamwork or creativity.  He's found the statistical seams of the sport and is trying his best to break it.


A game in which both teams do nothing but attempt threes (many unassisted), dunks, or free throws might be a great exhibition of offensive efficiency, but it would not be fun to watch.