As to Ray Allen Trade Ideas - an Explanation...

[Schupac]

And finally, if given a choice between winning one championship with a Ray Allen or winning two with a Stephen Jackson, I'll take the one with Ray any day of the week.

The problem with this is that we, as fans, do not truly know the players personally. It's tough to subjectively judge who is a good guy and who is not. For all we know, Ray goes home and kicks the dog. How do you know that Jackson isn't a good person at heart? How do you know a player that seems like a good person actually is one? What about players that seem to be good people but cheat on-field (ie. Andy Pettite/Marvin Harrison)?

I'll take the championships. Certain players are easier to root for than others. But do you care that Posey got a DUI in the offseason before this past season? What about numerous reports of Garnett punching out teammates in practice? As fans, we don't know the players for real so we should treat the sport the same that players do: a business.

Going to have to disagree with you completely here.  If fans treated it as a business, why would any of us watch?  We make no money out of it.

We pick our favorite players... we pick our favorite teams... Ray Ray was one of my favorites long before he came to Boston.  So winning one with him is a little better than someone I am ambivelant towards, like Stephen Jackson for example.

Nope, I don't know him personally.  But he sure acts classy.  And, more importantly, he was Jesus Shuttlesworth.  Is it wrong that that makes me like him more?  I don't think so.

If not for people feeling some sort of personal connection with these players, would anyone watch these millionaire athletes we have no ties to?

[gar]

Am sure this has been said; but Allen's value is much greater next year when he will have an expiring contract. Allen was able to be a cameleon last year. He was a scorer and when he was not a scorer he was a glue guy. Very hard to find both in one player. That is a "mature" player. Very rare.

[wolfceltic215]

I'd really love for Ray to retire as a Celtic.. maybe when his huge contract expires, DA should resign him for the minimum.. lol..

[Moranis]

I think if people want to propose trade ideas they can include anyone and any team they want. I thought that was what this sight was for? I mean if someone has an idea, it does not mean you have to read it. So if I was you I would just not click on that thread.
Obviously yo do click on them so you must like to read them, even if you dont agree with them you must at least get a chuckle out og it! If you as me, If it make you luagh or smile a little who cares. The world is about opinions and choices!

I'm not opposed to trade ideas. But it's not clear to me that the people proposing Ray Allen trades understand exactly how unrealistic those ideas are. 

Surely I enjoy reading trade ideas; I just especially enjoy reading plausible trade ideas since those prompt more interesting discussions...

I'm pretty sure trading Ray Allen is a pretty unrealistic prospect.

I don't know if trading Ray Allen is any more or less unrealistic than trading Scal or BBD/Powe for anything. Us making any trades with our current roster make-up seems pretty unrealistic. I've been pretty vocal about my views on not trading ray, but mostly its because I think people overvalue other teams' opinions of him and undervalue his own contributions to our own squad.

That shouldn't stop people from posting ideas, its just that sometimes one persons' view of the situation is in direct contrast to anothers'. They have as much right however to post those things as others. I also beleive it firmly opens them up for critique, but like Roy said, anyone who just replies with "This trade is stupid" to me is way more out of line than the guy who wants to trade ray allen for Raef LaFrentz and Wally Szcerbiak.

Ray Allen is really the only guy that could be traded given his contract, ability, and value to the team.  Teams would certainly want KG and Pierce but they are much more critical to the C's.  Teams would also want Rondo and Perkins to a lesser extent, but their contracts are so low they can essentially only be traded for players on their rookie contracts.  The C's don't really have anyone else of value and appropriate contract size to trade except Ray Allen, which is why his name will come up time and time again.

[Moranis]

Am sure this has been said; but Allen's value is much greater next year when he will have an expiring contract. Allen was able to be a cameleon last year. He was a scorer and when he was not a scorer he was a glue guy. Very hard to find both in one player. That is a "mature" player. Very rare.

His value next season will be that of expiring contract.  his value this year is as a great player with 2 years left.  It all depends on what the team you are trading him wants.  A lot of teams would want to have a star on more than a 1 year contract, a lot of teams are just looking to unload salary and wouldn't mind the expiring contract. 

[indeedproceed]

I think if people want to propose trade ideas they can include anyone and any team they want. I thought that was what this sight was for? I mean if someone has an idea, it does not mean you have to read it. So if I was you I would just not click on that thread.
Obviously yo do click on them so you must like to read them, even if you dont agree with them you must at least get a chuckle out og it! If you as me, If it make you luagh or smile a little who cares. The world is about opinions and choices!

I'm not opposed to trade ideas. But it's not clear to me that the people proposing Ray Allen trades understand exactly how unrealistic those ideas are. 

Surely I enjoy reading trade ideas; I just especially enjoy reading plausible trade ideas since those prompt more interesting discussions...

I'm pretty sure trading Ray Allen is a pretty unrealistic prospect.

I don't know if trading Ray Allen is any more or less unrealistic than trading Scal or BBD/Powe for anything. Us making any trades with our current roster make-up seems pretty unrealistic. I've been pretty vocal about my views on not trading ray, but mostly its because I think people overvalue other teams' opinions of him and undervalue his own contributions to our own squad.

That shouldn't stop people from posting ideas, its just that sometimes one persons' view of the situation is in direct contrast to anothers'. They have as much right however to post those things as others. I also beleive it firmly opens them up for critique, but like Roy said, anyone who just replies with "This trade is stupid" to me is way more out of line than the guy who wants to trade ray allen for Raef LaFrentz and Wally Szcerbiak.

Ray Allen is really the only guy that could be traded given his contract, ability, and value to the team.  Teams would certainly want KG and Pierce but they are much more critical to the C's.  Teams would also want Rondo and Perkins to a lesser extent, but their contracts are so low they can essentially only be traded for players on their rookie contracts.  The C's don't really have anyone else of value and appropriate contract size to trade except Ray Allen, which is why his name will come up time and time again.

Well yeah, Ray is our most tradeable asset, but that even being the case its almost a certainty from my end that he won't be traded until next season, if he gets traded at all.

[LooseCannon]

His value next season will be that of expiring contract.  his value this year is as a great player with 2 years left.  It all depends on what the team you are trading him wants.  A lot of teams would want to have a star on more than a 1 year contract, a lot of teams are just looking to unload salary and wouldn't mind the expiring contract. 

Hypothetically, if you could sign him to a contract extension and he would have the same value with two years left on that extension (that is, you believed he would still be a great player at that point in the future and he would still be an expiring big contract), what impediments (salary cap consideration?) are there to extending his contact, assuming he was willing?

[cdif911]

Hypothetically, if you could sign him to a contract extension and he would have the same value with two years left on that extension (that is, you believed he would still be a great player at that point in the future and he would still be an expiring big contract), what impediments (salary cap consideration?) are there to extending his contact, assuming he was willing?

There's no impediments, but there's no way he's going to meet those conditions either.  He will not be a great player in 4 years.  He turns 33 in a week.  He will be 37 in 4 years, I just can't see an NBA shooting guard with shaky ankles making it that long in his career without regressing.  Was his slump during the playoffs a sign of that?  I honestly don't think so, I think Cleveland and Atlanta both defended him quite well.  That said, if Ray is still an impact player in 4 years I would be very very surprised

[jaketwice]

I think if people want to propose trade ideas they can include anyone and any team they want. I thought that was what this sight was for? I mean if someone has an idea, it does not mean you have to read it. So if I was you I would just not click on that thread.
Obviously yo do click on them so you must like to read them, even if you dont agree with them you must at least get a chuckle out og it! If you as me, If it make you luagh or smile a little who cares. The world is about opinions and choices!

I'm not opposed to trade ideas. But it's not clear to me that the people proposing Ray Allen trades understand exactly how unrealistic those ideas are. 

Surely I enjoy reading trade ideas; I just especially enjoy reading plausible trade ideas since those prompt more interesting discussions...

I'm pretty sure trading Ray Allen is a pretty unrealistic prospect.

I don't know if trading Ray Allen is any more or less unrealistic than trading Scal or BBD/Powe for anything. Us making any trades with our current roster make-up seems pretty unrealistic. I've been pretty vocal about my views on not trading ray, but mostly its because I think people overvalue other teams' opinions of him and undervalue his own contributions to our own squad.

That shouldn't stop people from posting ideas, its just that sometimes one persons' view of the situation is in direct contrast to anothers'. They have as much right however to post those things as others. I also beleive it firmly opens them up for critique, but like Roy said, anyone who just replies with "This trade is stupid" to me is way more out of line than the guy who wants to trade ray allen for Raef LaFrentz and Wally Szcerbiak.

Ray Allen is really the only guy that could be traded given his contract, ability, and value to the team.  Teams would certainly want KG and Pierce but they are much more critical to the C's.  Teams would also want Rondo and Perkins to a lesser extent, but their contracts are so low they can essentially only be traded for players on their rookie contracts.  The C's don't really have anyone else of value and appropriate contract size to trade except Ray Allen, which is why his name will come up time and time again.

That's all true...  But you ARE going to then have people saying the exact same things over and over again (which I needn't repeat). 

One interesting question that seems to be developing (it seems like consensus, even amongst those favoring trading Ray Allen, is that it would be tough to play around much with the roster) is whether a championship team should try and repeat with basically the same cast of characters.

Winning a championship is obviously extremely difficult - so repeating has to be a quite rare occurrence. And, if you factor in that other teams are getting better, if your team wins two in a row, then that team is truly superlative, since it was in effect able to beat two generations worth of NBAs... ...if that makes any sense at all.

[Calli]

And finally, if given a choice between winning one championship with a Ray Allen or winning two with a Stephen Jackson, I'll take the one with Ray any day of the week.

The problem with this is that we, as fans, do not truly know the players personally. It's tough to subjectively judge who is a good guy and who is not. For all we know, Ray goes home and kicks the dog. How do you know that Jackson isn't a good person at heart? How do you know a player that seems like a good person actually is one? What about players that seem to be good people but cheat on-field (ie. Andy Pettite/Marvin Harrison)?

I'll take the championships. Certain players are easier to root for than others. But do you care that Posey got a DUI in the offseason before this past season? What about numerous reports of Garnett punching out teammates in practice? As fans, we don't know the players for real so we should treat the sport the same that players do: a business.

No one's perfect of course, everyone has their good and bad points, and without knowing the players personally, you can never be 100% sure. But there are indicators, and public ones at that, of a player's character if you care to look.  Not having a police record, being awarded the sportsmanship award by your fellow players (who I would think would know him a little better than us fans), being designated as the NBA representative to the Thurgood Marshall Foundation are all indicators; just as running into the stands to take wild swings at fans, or getting into a shootout in the middle of the night outside a strip club are also indicators.  What you make of those indicators is up for discussion, of course, but as for me, I know which one I would want on my team.

And yes, given a choice, I'd much rather Posey didn't drive drunk and KG didn't go around decking his teammates.  Which is perhaps why I feel happier for Ray winning the ring, then I do for those guys.

By the way, I chose Jackson as an example because I thought it was a well established notion that he was one of the league's knuckleheads, but maybe I'm wrong about that.

[Moranis]

I think if people want to propose trade ideas they can include anyone and any team they want. I thought that was what this sight was for? I mean if someone has an idea, it does not mean you have to read it. So if I was you I would just not click on that thread.
Obviously yo do click on them so you must like to read them, even if you dont agree with them you must at least get a chuckle out og it! If you as me, If it make you luagh or smile a little who cares. The world is about opinions and choices!

I'm not opposed to trade ideas. But it's not clear to me that the people proposing Ray Allen trades understand exactly how unrealistic those ideas are. 

Surely I enjoy reading trade ideas; I just especially enjoy reading plausible trade ideas since those prompt more interesting discussions...

I'm pretty sure trading Ray Allen is a pretty unrealistic prospect.

I don't know if trading Ray Allen is any more or less unrealistic than trading Scal or BBD/Powe for anything. Us making any trades with our current roster make-up seems pretty unrealistic. I've been pretty vocal about my views on not trading ray, but mostly its because I think people overvalue other teams' opinions of him and undervalue his own contributions to our own squad.

That shouldn't stop people from posting ideas, its just that sometimes one persons' view of the situation is in direct contrast to anothers'. They have as much right however to post those things as others. I also beleive it firmly opens them up for critique, but like Roy said, anyone who just replies with "This trade is stupid" to me is way more out of line than the guy who wants to trade ray allen for Raef LaFrentz and Wally Szcerbiak.

Ray Allen is really the only guy that could be traded given his contract, ability, and value to the team.  Teams would certainly want KG and Pierce but they are much more critical to the C's.  Teams would also want Rondo and Perkins to a lesser extent, but their contracts are so low they can essentially only be traded for players on their rookie contracts.  The C's don't really have anyone else of value and appropriate contract size to trade except Ray Allen, which is why his name will come up time and time again.

That's all true...  But you ARE going to then have people saying the exact same things over and over again (which I needn't repeat). 

One interesting question that seems to be developing (it seems like consensus, even amongst those favoring trading Ray Allen, is that it would be tough to play around much with the roster) is whether a championship team should try and repeat with basically the same cast of characters.

Winning a championship is obviously extremely difficult - so repeating has to be a quite rare occurrence. And, if you factor in that other teams are getting better, if your team wins two in a row, then that team is truly superlative, since it was in effect able to beat two generations worth of NBAs... ...if that makes any sense at all.

dynasties have the same core players, but they also change up the role players and lesser starters all the time.  The Lakers were the last team to repeat.  Each team had Kobe and Shaq in the starting five these are the starters for the other teams: 00 - Glen Rice, AC Green, Ron Harper with a rotation of Fisher, Horry, Shaw, and Fox.  01 - Fisher, Fox, Ho Grant with a rotation of Horry, Lue, and Shaw.  02 - Fisher, Fox, Horry with a rotation of D. George, S. Walker, Shaw, and Hunter.

The Lakers kept the stars and some of the lesser players, but did a great job of mixing in new people every season to keep the team fresh and hungry. 

The question on Allen is, is Ray Allen like Glen Rice in that a great player, but one that isn't really necessary to win another championship.  You answer that question and you have the answer to whether or not the C's should look to trade him.  I personally think he is more like Glen Rice and thus would have no problem moving him in the right trade.

[The Walker Wiggle]

Ray Allen has been the best player on two teams in his career, Milwaukee and Seattle.

Before being traded to Boston, he averaged almost 27 Ppg.

He is an 8-time NBA All-Star: 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008.

He is a career 89% free throw shooter; 4th best in the league last year.

Ray Allen helped Rajon Rondo develop a jump shot, which prevented teams from cheating off Rondo all year, as you may recall.

Allen sacrificed more than either of the other two stars on the team in order to win a championship. Compare his FGM/A for the last year with his previous years (factoring in the times he had missed certain games) and compare his fg%; there was no drop off in efficiency, even though there was a drop off in the number of attempts per game.

I recall the C's winning at least a few playoff games because of Ray Allen's production.

Bottom line: we do not win Banner 17 without Ray Allen.

SO: if you are going to propose a trade idea, please consider equal value in exchange. Equal value considers the chemistry impact of trading him (for the younger players as well as the other two stars); it considers his production and willingness to sacrifice, and it considers how well liked he is by the Boston fan base. Finally, it considers the fact that he is 32, and is set to be paid over $30 Million for the next two seasons.

I see him as essentially un-tradeable, given that combination of factors. If you are into trade ideas, I would probably be MORE interested to see your ideas for other teams - given that we just won the title with this team and all.

But maybe that's just me...

Another Tommy Point to the OP. I'd much rather read ten more Walker or Gerald Green threads than yet another, bad for both sides, Ray Allen trade idea. Kids these days.

[jaketwice]

I think if people want to propose trade ideas they can include anyone and any team they want. I thought that was what this sight was for? I mean if someone has an idea, it does not mean you have to read it. So if I was you I would just not click on that thread.
Obviously yo do click on them so you must like to read them, even if you dont agree with them you must at least get a chuckle out og it! If you as me, If it make you luagh or smile a little who cares. The world is about opinions and choices!

I'm not opposed to trade ideas. But it's not clear to me that the people proposing Ray Allen trades understand exactly how unrealistic those ideas are. 

Surely I enjoy reading trade ideas; I just especially enjoy reading plausible trade ideas since those prompt more interesting discussions...

I'm pretty sure trading Ray Allen is a pretty unrealistic prospect.

I don't know if trading Ray Allen is any more or less unrealistic than trading Scal or BBD/Powe for anything. Us making any trades with our current roster make-up seems pretty unrealistic. I've been pretty vocal about my views on not trading ray, but mostly its because I think people overvalue other teams' opinions of him and undervalue his own contributions to our own squad.

That shouldn't stop people from posting ideas, its just that sometimes one persons' view of the situation is in direct contrast to anothers'. They have as much right however to post those things as others. I also beleive it firmly opens them up for critique, but like Roy said, anyone who just replies with "This trade is stupid" to me is way more out of line than the guy who wants to trade ray allen for Raef LaFrentz and Wally Szcerbiak.

Ray Allen is really the only guy that could be traded given his contract, ability, and value to the team.  Teams would certainly want KG and Pierce but they are much more critical to the C's.  Teams would also want Rondo and Perkins to a lesser extent, but their contracts are so low they can essentially only be traded for players on their rookie contracts.  The C's don't really have anyone else of value and appropriate contract size to trade except Ray Allen, which is why his name will come up time and time again.

That's all true...  But you ARE going to then have people saying the exact same things over and over again (which I needn't repeat). 

One interesting question that seems to be developing (it seems like consensus, even amongst those favoring trading Ray Allen, is that it would be tough to play around much with the roster) is whether a championship team should try and repeat with basically the same cast of characters.

Winning a championship is obviously extremely difficult - so repeating has to be a quite rare occurrence. And, if you factor in that other teams are getting better, if your team wins two in a row, then that team is truly superlative, since it was in effect able to beat two generations worth of NBAs... ...if that makes any sense at all.

dynasties have the same core players, but they also change up the role players and lesser starters all the time.  The Lakers were the last team to repeat.  Each team had Kobe and Shaq in the starting five these are the starters for the other teams: 00 - Glen Rice, AC Green, Ron Harper with a rotation of Fisher, Horry, Shaw, and Fox.  01 - Fisher, Fox, Ho Grant with a rotation of Horry, Lue, and Shaw.  02 - Fisher, Fox, Horry with a rotation of D. George, S. Walker, Shaw, and Hunter.

The Lakers kept the stars and some of the lesser players, but did a great job of mixing in new people every season to keep the team fresh and hungry. 

The question on Allen is, is Ray Allen like Glen Rice in that a great player, but one that isn't really necessary to win another championship.  You answer that question and you have the answer to whether or not the C's should look to trade him.  I personally think he is more like Glen Rice and thus would have no problem moving him in the right trade.

I feel like he is "part of the dynasty" or whatever. Not that you don't have a point. Without Ray, however, KG doesn't come here, Rondo doesn't get a jump shot. It seems like a really level headed person is a necessary part of a team with a smart but somewhat partying-prone player and a maniac. Albeit an amazing maniac.

Certainly, there's a gulf between PJ Brown's contribution and Allen's. I think off the court - Ray Allen is a part of the story.