Big Man Options

[mmmmm]

Would you guys consider a trade around Hayward and Vucevic? Is it possible that the Magic would consider it?

Why for the Magic:
- Now that Isaac got injured, they need a wing. Hayward would be starting for them over Wes Iwundu/Khem Birch (they both suck).
- Bamba is a top prospect at the C position. By trading Vuc, they free up more minutes for Bamba.

Highly doubt they would do it straight up. I bet they would at least consider it if we included the Memphis pick. Personally speaking, I wouldn't go that far. I would however be willing to include our own pick.

Why for the C's:
Vuc would be a great fit in CBS' system. Reminds me of Horford (on the offensive side of the ball). We could also use Theis at PF, which is his natural position.

Kemba - Brown - Tatum - Theis - Vucevic

If you ask me, that's a more balanced starting 5 than the one that we have now.

You just lost all the benefits of Hayward's playmaking in the starting lineup, gained the marginal benefits of Vucevic at C over Theis, and put Theis at a position he almost never plays.

Theis has only barely played the 4 since coming to the Celtics.  Just briefly with Baines for a tiny handful of minutes during his first year.   He is otherwise almost exclusively a 5.   Even in Germany he played almost always at the 5.

The way to look at it is that you maybe, possibly got a small upgrade at the 5 with your change, but you took a downgrade at the 4.   Because Gordon+Tatum at the 3-4 is massively better than Tatum+Theis at the 3-4.

At any rate, I would rate the chances that Danny makes this trade at somewhere under .01%.

[jambr380]

Would you guys consider a trade around Hayward and Vucevic? Is it possible that the Magic would consider it?

Why for the Magic:
- Now that Isaac got injured, they need a wing. Hayward would be starting for them over Wes Iwundu/Khem Birch (they both suck).
- Bamba is a top prospect at the C position. By trading Vuc, they free up more minutes for Bamba.

Highly doubt they would do it straight up. I bet they would at least consider it if we included the Memphis pick. Personally speaking, I wouldn't go that far. I would however be willing to include our own pick.

Why for the C's:
Vuc would be a great fit in CBS' system. Reminds me of Horford (on the offensive side of the ball). We could also use Theis at PF, which is his natural position.

Kemba - Brown - Tatum - Theis - Vucevic

If you ask me, that's a more balanced starting 5 than the one that we have now.

As far as Hayward for [insert big man here] options, I would say he is preferable to Drummond or Thompson - so kudos for bringing up a name that we can at least fit on our team. Vuc is a good shooter, passer, and rebounder, but I wouldn't say he is a great defender, which would be the main issue with your proposal. I'd honestly rather roll the dice with Hayward or even go for A. Gordon from Orlando, but at least Vuc is locked up for 3 more years after this one at a somewhat reasonable #...less than Hayward anyway.

[Jvalin]

You just lost all the benefits of Hayward's playmaking in the starting lineup

Vucevic is an excellent passer at the C position. There are only 2 Centers around the league averaging more assists than him: Jokic and Marc Gasol.

Hayward is averaging more assists than Vucevic, but he's committing more turnovers as well. If you combine assists + turnovers in one stat, then Vucevic is a (marginally) better passer than Hayward this season.

Vucevic's assist to t/o ratio is 2.62
Hayward's assist to t/o ratio is 2.56

gained the marginal benefits of Vucevic at C over Theis
(...) you maybe, possibly got a small upgrade at the 5

In what universe is Vucevic a ''maybe, possibly small upgrade'' over Theis? Vuc was an All-Star last season. This season, he is averaging 19 points, 11 boards, 3.4 assists, 1 block and 1 steal per game.

Theis was our third choice Center last season. Only reason he's starting this season is that Danny used our cap space on Kemba (=Kyrie replacement) and we had no cap space left for a Center (=Horford + Baynes replacement). To put it another way, starting Theis at the 5 was never our plan A. We got stuck with him. Acting like Vucevic is a marginal upgrade over Theis, is homerism at its finest!

Vuc is a good shooter, passer, and rebounder, but I wouldn't say he is a great defender, which would be the main issue with your proposal.

Well, Hayward isn't exactly ''a great defender'' either (especially after his injury). We would have to pair Vucevic with a defensive-minded PF, which is fine cause we already got Theis, Semi and G-Will.

[mmmmm]

You just lost all the benefits of Hayward's playmaking in the starting lineup

Vucevic is an excellent passer at the C position. There are only 2 Centers around the league averaging more assists than him: Jokic and Marc Gasol.

Hayward is averaging more assists than Vucevic, but he is averaging more turnovers as well. If you combine assists + turnovers in one stat, then Vucevic is a (marginally) better passer than Hayward this season.

Vucevic's assist to t/o ratio is 2.62
Hayward's assist to t/o ratio is 2.56

you maybe, possibly got a small upgrade at the 5

In what universe is Vucevic a ''maybe, possibly small upgrade'' over Theis ? ? ? Vuc was an All-Star last season. This season, he is averaging 19 points, 11 boards, 3.4 assists, 1 block and 1 steal per game.

Theis was our third choice Center last season. Only reason he's starting this season is that Danny used our cap space on Kemba (=Kyrie replacement) and we had no cap space left for a Center (=Horford + Baynes replacement). To put it another way, starting Theis at the 5 was never our plan A. We got stuck with him. Acting like Vucevic is a small upgrade over Theis, is homerism at its finest!

Your assist & TO numbers are overall numbers.   Haywards overall assist volume is depressed in lineups where he shares the floor with Smart.

In our starting configuration, Hayward is averaging 7.9 assists per 100 possessions (he is the primary play-maker with our normal starting 5, just ahead of Kemba's 7.3 per 100) against just 1.3 turnovers per 100 possessions, for an assist to turnover ratio of 6.08.

It is important to note Hayward's presence with the other starters has a huge positive effect on their scoring efficiency.   Tatum in particular shows a dramatic increase in scoring efficiency (TS%) when Gordon is on the floor with him (from ~51% ---> ~58%).   Kemba, Theis & to a lesser extent Jaylen also show increases in TS% with Gordon on the floor versus when he is not.  With Gordon on the floor, those other 4 starters have a team ORtg of 128.8 points per 100.  Without him, it is just 115.0.


As for Vucevic's marginal increase in value at the 5 over Theis & Kanter, this just plain comes down to the fact that Theis and Kanter so far are combining to deliver a heck of a lot of value.   They are combining to provide 17.2 points, 14.1 rebounds & 2.7 assists per game on 40.3 minutes per game.  The per-36 equivalents are 15.2/12.6/2.4.  And Kanter (62.2% TS) and Theis (59.2%) are both scoring at elite efficiency.   

Vucevic's per-36 slash line of 21.6/12.6/3.8 provides a little more scoring, but not much more -- and his scoring efficiency of just 53.1% TS is pretty mediocre.   

I just don't think that marginal boost in scoring volume makes ups for the differences you lose with Gordon.

And Vucevic just doesn't match as well as Theis does with the switch-everything defensive philosophy that Stevens uses with the starting lineup.   You would be asking the starting lineup to completely change how they play defense.

[gouki88]

You just lost all the benefits of Hayward's playmaking in the starting lineup

Vucevic is an excellent passer at the C position. There are only 2 Centers around the league averaging more assists than him: Jokic and Marc Gasol.

Hayward is averaging more assists than Vucevic, but he is averaging more turnovers as well. If you combine assists + turnovers in one stat, then Vucevic is a (marginally) better passer than Hayward this season.

Vucevic's assist to t/o ratio is 2.62
Hayward's assist to t/o ratio is 2.56

you maybe, possibly got a small upgrade at the 5

In what universe is Vucevic a ''maybe, possibly small upgrade'' over Theis ? ? ? Vuc was an All-Star last season. This season, he is averaging 19 points, 11 boards, 3.4 assists, 1 block and 1 steal per game.

Theis was our third choice Center last season. Only reason he's starting this season is that Danny used our cap space on Kemba (=Kyrie replacement) and we had no cap space left for a Center (=Horford + Baynes replacement). To put it another way, starting Theis at the 5 was never our plan A. We got stuck with him. Acting like Vucevic is a small upgrade over Theis, is homerism at its finest!

Your assist & TO numbers are overall numbers.   Haywards overall assist volume is depressed in lineups where he shares the floor with Smart.

In our starting configuration, Hayward is averaging 7.9 assists per 100 possessions (he is the primary play-maker with our normal starting 5, just ahead of Kemba's 7.3 per 100) against just 1.3 turnovers per 100 possessions, for an assist to turnover ratio of 6.08.

It is important to note Hayward's presence with the other starters has a huge positive effect on their scoring efficiency.   Tatum in particular shows a dramatic increase in scoring efficiency (TS%) when Gordon is on the floor with him (from ~51% ---> ~58%).   Kemba, Theis & to a lesser extent Jaylen also show increases in TS% with Gordon on the floor versus when he is not.  With Gordon on the floor, those other 4 starters have a team ORtg of 128.8 points per 100.  Without him, it is just 115.0.


As for Vucevic's marginal increase in value at the 5 over Theis & Kanter, this just plain comes down to the fact that Theis and Kanter so far are combining to deliver a heck of a lot of value.   They are combining to provide 17.2 points, 14.1 rebounds & 2.7 assists per game on 40.3 minutes per game.  The per-36 equivalents are 15.2/12.6/2.4.  And Kanter (62.2% TS) and Theis (59.2%) are both scoring at elite efficiency.   

Vucevic's per-36 slash line of 21.6/12.6/3.8 provides a little more scoring, but not much more -- and his scoring efficiency of just 53.1% TS is pretty mediocre.   

I just don't think that marginal boost in scoring volume makes ups for the differences you lose with Gordon.

And Vucevic just doesn't match as well as Theis does with the switch-everything defensive philosophy that Stevens uses with the starting lineup.   You would be asking the starting lineup to completely change how they play defense.

TP. Trading Hayward for Vuce would disrupt us on both ends massively.

I also disagree that Theis’ natural position is the 4. He plays the 5 everywhere, even for Germany alongside Kleber

[Jvalin]

Your assist & TO numbers are overall numbers.   Haywards overall assist volume is depressed in lineups where he shares the floor with Smart.

Vuc is a Center, hence his assist volume is depressed even more than Hayward's.

As for Vucevic's marginal increase in value at the 5 over Theis & Kanter

What does Kanter's production has to do with this? We were comparing Theis to Vucevic.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of Hayward's game. My point is that Vucevic a) is probably even better than Hayward and b) he plays a position of need for us.

[Monkhouse]

I'm 100% on board with Theis/Kanter/G. Williams.

I think they deserve the right to prove themselves. They have not disappointed nor give us a reason to be upset with their output.

Theis/Kanter took team friendly contracts for us to give us cap flexibility. I guess I'm little hurt that Horford left us.

I know money is always important, but Horford would've really been exactly what we needed.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Would you guys consider a trade around Hayward and Vucevic? Is it possible that the Magic would consider it?

Why for the Magic:
- Now that Isaac got injured, they need a wing. Hayward would be starting for them over Wes Iwundu/Khem Birch (they both suck).
- Bamba is a top prospect at the C position. By trading Vuc, they free up more minutes for Bamba.

Highly doubt they would do it straight up. I bet they would at least consider it if we included the Memphis pick. Personally speaking, I wouldn't go that far. I would however be willing to include our own pick.

Why for the C's:
Vuc would be a great fit in CBS' system. Reminds me of Horford (on the offensive side of the ball). We could also use Theis at PF, which is his natural position.

Kemba - Brown - Tatum - Theis - Vucevic

If you ask me, that's a more balanced starting 5 than the one that we have now.

I'm not a one-game guy, but Theis outplayed Vucevic tonight, and Hayward showed why he is a much better player than anyone on the team, and Gordon showed how he is more potential and actual.

I kinda' like minutes from Bamba, but I don't want to trade a top 6 player for him.

[nickagneta]

I wonder how many fanbases in the league are like:

"Wow, I wonder what it would take to get Daniel Theis from the Celtics. Our team really needs a defensively versatile big man like Theis."

[DefenseWinsChamps]

I wonder how many fanbases in the league are like:

"Wow, I wonder what it would take to get Daniel Theis from the Celtics. Our team really needs a defensively versatile big man like Theis."

"It'd be awesome to get someone who sets good screens, can shoot the three, and play solid team defense."

[mmmmm]

All I can say is that nothing that happened in tonight's game made me change my mind about this latest "Hayward for Vucevic" proposal.  If anything, the opposite.

I would now put the chances of Danny ever executing such a trade at somewhere south of 0.001%.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

All I can say is that nothing that happened in tonight's game made me change my mind about this latest "Hayward for Vucevic" proposal.  If anything, the opposite.

I would now put the chances of Danny ever executing such a trade at somewhere south of 0.001%.

Someone's gotta score on bad or mediocre teams. Doesn't mean their 20 ppg transfers to good teams. It doesn't even mean they can be a cog on a good team.

[nickagneta]

All I can say is that nothing that happened in tonight's game made me change my mind about this latest "Hayward for Vucevic" proposal.  If anything, the opposite.

I would now put the chances of Danny ever executing such a trade at somewhere south of 0.001%.

That goes triple for the Gordon and Bamba for Hayward trade idea that is out there too.

[Phantom255x]

All I can say is that nothing that happened in tonight's game made me change my mind about this latest "Hayward for Vucevic" proposal.  If anything, the opposite.

I would now put the chances of Danny ever executing such a trade at somewhere south of 0.001%.

That goes triple for the Gordon and Bamba for Hayward trade idea that is out there too.

Lol I was going to respond in that "Hayward for Drummond-Rose proposal" after tonight's game and Hayward's performance. Didn't realize it got locked for some reason.

[nickagneta]

All I can say is that nothing that happened in tonight's game made me change my mind about this latest "Hayward for Vucevic" proposal.  If anything, the opposite.

I would now put the chances of Danny ever executing such a trade at somewhere south of 0.001%.

That goes triple for the Gordon and Bamba for Hayward trade idea that is out there too.

Lol I was going to respond in that "Hayward for Drummond-Rose proposal" after tonight's game and Hayward's performance. Didn't realize it got locked for some reason.

The subject had run its course and the thread got....... testy. Best to lock it up.