Could Horford end up being the worst contract of offseason?

[Moranis]

Al Horford has the 23rd highest contract for the upcoming season, tied with Nikola Vucevic.  He probably is a bit worse than that as a player, but I'd say he should still have top 30ish impact when accounting for everything and he obviously is making more than anyone on a rookie scale contract. 

In 2020 without accounting for any new money (like say Anthony Davis), he has the 38th highest contract.  Again that doesn't seem that far off from where you would expect him to be especially without the rookie scale contracts.

In 2021 he is sitting at 28th.  By the time that season rolls around though he will be much lower than that after 2 more summers of new contracts. 

In 2022 (with all incentives), he is at 22nd.  That will obviously be much lower by the time the season rolls around, especially if he doesn't hit the incentives.

In other words, Horford is paid about where you would expect based on his perceived production.  This just seems like a case of not fully grasping just how much money players are making these days.  Everyone makes a ton of money.

Or if other people want to be equally as condescending as you we could just say this seems to be you not realizing how limited Horford is going to be at 33 and you fail to grasp the concept of aging? Maybe the board is better if you make the comments without your opinion of what people are grasping?

I would not have Horford close to 30 next year. He was not even In The conversation for being an all star in the east. He wouldn’t have been even whispered for conversation in the west. He also was significantly worse last year than the year prior and was noticeably banged up with concerns about his knee.

Strange in early June you were singing Horford's praises and saying things like if the C's acquired Davis the C's would have the best front court in the league.  Hands down.  Odd how he leaves the Celtics and becomes terrible, ages quickly, and isn't worth crap.  And I'm well aware that Davis is a great player, but how much better is Davis than Embiid (if at all)?  If Davis, Horford, and Hayward would have been the best front court in the league why isn't Embiid, Horford, and Harris? And again that was you in June of this year after the season.

[Erik]

The Rozier, Jordan, Middleton, & Harris contracts all come to mind.

Dont forget Durant

[liam]

Al Horford has the 23rd highest contract for the upcoming season, tied with Nikola Vucevic.  He probably is a bit worse than that as a player, but I'd say he should still have top 30ish impact when accounting for everything and he obviously is making more than anyone on a rookie scale contract. 

In 2020 without accounting for any new money (like say Anthony Davis), he has the 38th highest contract.  Again that doesn't seem that far off from where you would expect him to be especially without the rookie scale contracts.

In 2021 he is sitting at 28th.  By the time that season rolls around though he will be much lower than that after 2 more summers of new contracts. 

In 2022 (with all incentives), he is at 22nd.  That will obviously be much lower by the time the season rolls around, especially if he doesn't hit the incentives.

In other words, Horford is paid about where you would expect based on his perceived production.  This just seems like a case of not fully grasping just how much money players are making these days.  Everyone makes a ton of money.

Or if other people want to be equally as condescending as you we could just say this seems to be you not realizing how limited Horford is going to be at 33 and you fail to grasp the concept of aging? Maybe the board is better if you make the comments without your opinion of what people are grasping?

I would not have Horford close to 30 next year. He was not even In The conversation for being an all star in the east. He wouldn’t have been even whispered for conversation in the west. He also was significantly worse last year than the year prior and was noticeably banged up with concerns about his knee.

Strange in early June you were singing Horford's praises and saying things like if the C's acquired Davis the C's would have the best front court in the league.  Hands down.  Odd how he leaves the Celtics and becomes terrible, ages quickly, and isn't worth crap.  And I'm well aware that Davis is a great player, but how much better is Davis than Embiid (if at all)?  If Davis, Horford, and Hayward would have been the best front court in the league why isn't Embiid, Horford, and Harris? And again that was you in June of this year after the season.

Horford and Embiid if healthy are a great front court. I think the only knock is that both are probably better off as 5s at this point and Davis can guard like 2-5. Health is probably the biggest concern and who is the back up big in Philly? Kyle O'Quinn or Jonah Bolden.... I will be very interested to see how the Sixers shake out....

[tazzmaniac]

Al Horford has the 23rd highest contract for the upcoming season, tied with Nikola Vucevic.  He probably is a bit worse than that as a player, but I'd say he should still have top 30ish impact when accounting for everything and he obviously is making more than anyone on a rookie scale contract. 

In 2020 without accounting for any new money (like say Anthony Davis), he has the 38th highest contract.  Again that doesn't seem that far off from where you would expect him to be especially without the rookie scale contracts.

In 2021 he is sitting at 28th.  By the time that season rolls around though he will be much lower than that after 2 more summers of new contracts. 

In 2022 (with all incentives), he is at 22nd.  That will obviously be much lower by the time the season rolls around, especially if he doesn't hit the incentives.

In other words, Horford is paid about where you would expect based on his perceived production.  This just seems like a case of not fully grasping just how much money players are making these days.  Everyone makes a ton of money.

I would respectfully disagree. 

Year one of year 1 of the contract is fine, and year 2 will probably be reasonable too.  But when he goes into year 3 and 4 at the age of 36 and 37 there's a good chance  that Philly will be paying all-star money for a guy who is playing a fringe-starter level.

I think Philly's screwed themselves in a huge way financially, and taken a MASSIVE risk in the desperate hope of winning a title in the next two seasons.

Lets look at it this way.  Three years from now, In the 2021/22 season, the 76ers will have the contracts of Embiid ($31.5M), Simmons ($31.5M), Horford ($27.0M) and Tobias Harris ($36m est). 

That's a total of $126M tied up in four players:
- One of those guys (Embiid) has missed 252 games over 5 seasons (an average of 50 games per season)
- One of those guys (Horford) will be 36 years old and is probably a fringe-starter by this point
- One of those guys (Harris) when at his very best is a fringe All-Star
- One of these guys (Simmons) has immense talent but has shown limited progression, isn't an Alpha, and has a game that's clearly incompatible with Embiid's

They are taking a HUGE risk by effectively throwing all of their eggs in one basket in the desperate hope that Embiid can stay healthy nd develop as a leader, and that Simmons can develop a decent enough jump shot to be able to play alongside Embiid.  If they don't get to AT LEAST the eastern conference finals  either this year or next, then it'll be at least another 3 years before they will have the flexibility to make roster changes and try to compete again.

Horford just turned 33 in June so in years 3 and 4 of his contract he will be 35 and 36. 
Embiid has played 63 and 64 regular season games the past two seasons.  Throwing in the 1st two seasons missed due to the foot injury suffered in college isn't meaningful.  Besides regular season games don't win you the championship, I expect they'll do a lot better job of load management to get Embiid healthy to the playoffs.  The Sixers arguably were a decent backup center from the finals and a possible championship and they've got much more than that in Horford now. 

The Sixers have done a great job at managing their cap space to maintain there flexibility but this was the time for them to commit.  What else were they supposed to do? Wait until next offseason when free agency is much weaker?   I don't see them finishing 1st in the East in the regular season but they are arguably the best playoff team in the East.  Simmons/Richardson/Harris/Horford/Embiid is a very strong starting lineup. 

Simmons and Embiid may not be a great fit but to say they are incompatible is way over blowing the fit issue.  Here are the Sixers numbers when they shared the court the past 2 seasons. 

                                   Min        OffRtg       DefRtg
Regular season 2019    1431   112.8   104.9
Playoffs 2019                283   112.5   93.0   
Regular season 2018    1306   113.3   97.8   
Playoffs 2018                198   104.4   103.2

They’ll ‘do better’? 7 footers’ feet problems almost always get worse, not better. Philly had to give him multiple treatments every day for him to be able to play. His minutes per season likely aren’t going up.

And for all their D, they will struggle on offense. Jimmy Butler was their crunch time offense.

They’ll almost certainly be better than us, but they’re a flawed lineup that, imo, will fit worse than we did last year.

I don't recall Embiid having any foot problems since the 2nd foot surgery in 2015.  He had meniscus knee surgery that cut his 2016/17 season short.  In 2017/18, he had the broken orbital bone.  In 2018/2019, he had some knee soreness later in the season.  The Sixers don't want Embiid's minutes and games going up in the regular season.  They're going to load manage him as much as they need to for him to be healthy in the playoffs. 

Their defense should be much better than last season.  Maybe the best in the league.  Their offense will need to change but I don't see why they'd struggle.  All of their starters are good offensive players.  Losing Butler's closing hurts but overall he was a poor fit with Simmons and limited Harris to a degree too.  Redick is the bigger loss from an offensive perspective.   

[tazzmaniac]

Al Horford has the 23rd highest contract for the upcoming season, tied with Nikola Vucevic.  He probably is a bit worse than that as a player, but I'd say he should still have top 30ish impact when accounting for everything and he obviously is making more than anyone on a rookie scale contract. 

In 2020 without accounting for any new money (like say Anthony Davis), he has the 38th highest contract.  Again that doesn't seem that far off from where you would expect him to be especially without the rookie scale contracts.

In 2021 he is sitting at 28th.  By the time that season rolls around though he will be much lower than that after 2 more summers of new contracts. 

In 2022 (with all incentives), he is at 22nd.  That will obviously be much lower by the time the season rolls around, especially if he doesn't hit the incentives.

In other words, Horford is paid about where you would expect based on his perceived production.  This just seems like a case of not fully grasping just how much money players are making these days.  Everyone makes a ton of money.

Or if other people want to be equally as condescending as you we could just say this seems to be you not realizing how limited Horford is going to be at 33 and you fail to grasp the concept of aging? Maybe the board is better if you make the comments without your opinion of what people are grasping?

I would not have Horford close to 30 next year. He was not even In The conversation for being an all star in the east. He wouldn’t have been even whispered for conversation in the west. He also was significantly worse last year than the year prior and was noticeably banged up with concerns about his knee.

Strange in early June you were singing Horford's praises and saying things like if the C's acquired Davis the C's would have the best front court in the league.  Hands down.  Odd how he leaves the Celtics and becomes terrible, ages quickly, and isn't worth crap.  And I'm well aware that Davis is a great player, but how much better is Davis than Embiid (if at all)?  If Davis, Horford, and Hayward would have been the best front court in the league why isn't Embiid, Horford, and Harris? And again that was you in June of this year after the season.

Horford and Embiid if healthy are a great front court. I think the only knock is that both are probably better off as 5s at this point and Davis can guard like 2-5. Health is probably the biggest concern and who is the back up big in Philly? Kyle O'Quinn or Jonah Bolden.... I will be very interested to see how the Sixers shake out....

In the playoffs, Horford will start at 4 and be the primary backup 5.  During the regular season, I'd expect O'Quinn to be the primary backup 5.  Sounds like they may have Bolden focus more at the 4.  AD's problem is he doesn't like playing the 5.  He doesn't like going up against the bruising centers. 

[celticsclay]

Al Horford has the 23rd highest contract for the upcoming season, tied with Nikola Vucevic.  He probably is a bit worse than that as a player, but I'd say he should still have top 30ish impact when accounting for everything and he obviously is making more than anyone on a rookie scale contract. 

In 2020 without accounting for any new money (like say Anthony Davis), he has the 38th highest contract.  Again that doesn't seem that far off from where you would expect him to be especially without the rookie scale contracts.

In 2021 he is sitting at 28th.  By the time that season rolls around though he will be much lower than that after 2 more summers of new contracts. 

In 2022 (with all incentives), he is at 22nd.  That will obviously be much lower by the time the season rolls around, especially if he doesn't hit the incentives.

In other words, Horford is paid about where you would expect based on his perceived production.  This just seems like a case of not fully grasping just how much money players are making these days.  Everyone makes a ton of money.

Or if other people want to be equally as condescending as you we could just say this seems to be you not realizing how limited Horford is going to be at 33 and you fail to grasp the concept of aging? Maybe the board is better if you make the comments without your opinion of what people are grasping?

I would not have Horford close to 30 next year. He was not even In The conversation for being an all star in the east. He wouldn’t have been even whispered for conversation in the west. He also was significantly worse last year than the year prior and was noticeably banged up with concerns about his knee.

Strange in early June you were singing Horford's praises and saying things like if the C's acquired Davis the C's would have the best front court in the league.  Hands down.  Odd how he leaves the Celtics and becomes terrible, ages quickly, and isn't worth crap.  And I'm well aware that Davis is a great player, but how much better is Davis than Embiid (if at all)?  If Davis, Horford, and Hayward would have been the best front court in the league why isn't Embiid, Horford, and Harris? And again that was you in June of this year after the season.

I do think Harris and embiid and Horford could be the best frontcourt in the league. It is competitive. I do think Davis is better than embiid by a decent amount of healthy. Really weird deflection. What does that have to do with Horford making 28 million dollars. If you have a near all star in Harris, an mvp candidate and an above average starter in Horford does that mean you should overpay the above average starter? Really strange response.

Also to be clear I think Horford will still be solid next year. If it was one year at 28 million I would obviously not think it was terrible. The 85 for 3 guaranteed for the subsequent seasons is where it really becomes a problem. Since I have answered your question can you answer how Horford is a top 30 player next year and after? I made a list

[celticsclay]

Al Horford has the 23rd highest contract for the upcoming season, tied with Nikola Vucevic.  He probably is a bit worse than that as a player, but I'd say he should still have top 30ish impact when accounting for everything and he obviously is making more than anyone on a rookie scale contract. 

In 2020 without accounting for any new money (like say Anthony Davis), he has the 38th highest contract.  Again that doesn't seem that far off from where you would expect him to be especially without the rookie scale contracts.

In 2021 he is sitting at 28th.  By the time that season rolls around though he will be much lower than that after 2 more summers of new contracts. 

In 2022 (with all incentives), he is at 22nd.  That will obviously be much lower by the time the season rolls around, especially if he doesn't hit the incentives.

In other words, Horford is paid about where you would expect based on his perceived production.  This just seems like a case of not fully grasping just how much money players are making these days.  Everyone makes a ton of money.

Or if other people want to be equally as condescending as you we could just say this seems to be you not realizing how limited Horford is going to be at 33 and you fail to grasp the concept of aging? Maybe the board is better if you make the comments without your opinion of what people are grasping?

I would not have Horford close to 30 next year. He was not even In The conversation for being an all star in the east. He wouldn’t have been even whispered for conversation in the west. He also was significantly worse last year than the year prior and was noticeably banged up with concerns about his knee.

Strange in early June you were singing Horford's praises and saying things like if the C's acquired Davis the C's would have the best front court in the league.  Hands down.  Odd how he leaves the Celtics and becomes terrible, ages quickly, and isn't worth crap.  And I'm well aware that Davis is a great player, but how much better is Davis than Embiid (if at all)?  If Davis, Horford, and Hayward would have been the best front court in the league why isn't Embiid, Horford, and Harris? And again that was you in June of this year after the season.

Horford and Embiid if healthy are a great front court. I think the only knock is that both are probably better off as 5s at this point and Davis can guard like 2-5. Health is probably the biggest concern and who is the back up big in Philly? Kyle O'Quinn or Jonah Bolden.... I will be very interested to see how the Sixers shake out....

Yeah obviously Davis and Horford is a very interesting pairing that would really fit well together. It is really unrelated to the fit of embiid and Horford or horfords 85 million for the next 3 years, but a common tactic is to change the subject when you don’t like the direction the convo is going in.

[liam]

Al Horford has the 23rd highest contract for the upcoming season, tied with Nikola Vucevic.  He probably is a bit worse than that as a player, but I'd say he should still have top 30ish impact when accounting for everything and he obviously is making more than anyone on a rookie scale contract. 

In 2020 without accounting for any new money (like say Anthony Davis), he has the 38th highest contract.  Again that doesn't seem that far off from where you would expect him to be especially without the rookie scale contracts.

In 2021 he is sitting at 28th.  By the time that season rolls around though he will be much lower than that after 2 more summers of new contracts. 

In 2022 (with all incentives), he is at 22nd.  That will obviously be much lower by the time the season rolls around, especially if he doesn't hit the incentives.

In other words, Horford is paid about where you would expect based on his perceived production.  This just seems like a case of not fully grasping just how much money players are making these days.  Everyone makes a ton of money.

Or if other people want to be equally as condescending as you we could just say this seems to be you not realizing how limited Horford is going to be at 33 and you fail to grasp the concept of aging? Maybe the board is better if you make the comments without your opinion of what people are grasping?

I would not have Horford close to 30 next year. He was not even In The conversation for being an all star in the east. He wouldn’t have been even whispered for conversation in the west. He also was significantly worse last year than the year prior and was noticeably banged up with concerns about his knee.

Strange in early June you were singing Horford's praises and saying things like if the C's acquired Davis the C's would have the best front court in the league.  Hands down.  Odd how he leaves the Celtics and becomes terrible, ages quickly, and isn't worth crap.  And I'm well aware that Davis is a great player, but how much better is Davis than Embiid (if at all)?  If Davis, Horford, and Hayward would have been the best front court in the league why isn't Embiid, Horford, and Harris? And again that was you in June of this year after the season.

Horford and Embiid if healthy are a great front court. I think the only knock is that both are probably better off as 5s at this point and Davis can guard like 2-5. Health is probably the biggest concern and who is the back up big in Philly? Kyle O'Quinn or Jonah Bolden.... I will be very interested to see how the Sixers shake out....

Yeah obviously Davis and Horford is a very interesting pairing that would really fit well together. It is really unrelated to the fit of embiid and Horford or horfords 85 million for the next 3 years, but a common tactic is to change the subject when you don’t like the direction the convo is going in.

"Horford and Embiid if healthy are a great front court. I think the only knock is that both are probably better off as 5s at this point."

[tazzmaniac]

Al Horford has the 23rd highest contract for the upcoming season, tied with Nikola Vucevic.  He probably is a bit worse than that as a player, but I'd say he should still have top 30ish impact when accounting for everything and he obviously is making more than anyone on a rookie scale contract. 

In 2020 without accounting for any new money (like say Anthony Davis), he has the 38th highest contract.  Again that doesn't seem that far off from where you would expect him to be especially without the rookie scale contracts.

In 2021 he is sitting at 28th.  By the time that season rolls around though he will be much lower than that after 2 more summers of new contracts. 

In 2022 (with all incentives), he is at 22nd.  That will obviously be much lower by the time the season rolls around, especially if he doesn't hit the incentives.

In other words, Horford is paid about where you would expect based on his perceived production.  This just seems like a case of not fully grasping just how much money players are making these days.  Everyone makes a ton of money.

Or if other people want to be equally as condescending as you we could just say this seems to be you not realizing how limited Horford is going to be at 33 and you fail to grasp the concept of aging? Maybe the board is better if you make the comments without your opinion of what people are grasping?

I would not have Horford close to 30 next year. He was not even In The conversation for being an all star in the east. He wouldn’t have been even whispered for conversation in the west. He also was significantly worse last year than the year prior and was noticeably banged up with concerns about his knee.

Strange in early June you were singing Horford's praises and saying things like if the C's acquired Davis the C's would have the best front court in the league.  Hands down.  Odd how he leaves the Celtics and becomes terrible, ages quickly, and isn't worth crap.  And I'm well aware that Davis is a great player, but how much better is Davis than Embiid (if at all)?  If Davis, Horford, and Hayward would have been the best front court in the league why isn't Embiid, Horford, and Harris? And again that was you in June of this year after the season.

I do think Harris and embiid and Horford could be the best frontcourt in the league. It is competitive. I do think Davis is better than embiid by a decent amount of healthy. Really weird deflection. What does that have to do with Horford making 28 million dollars. If you have a near all star in Harris, an mvp candidate and an above average starter in Horford does that mean you should overpay the above average starter? Really strange response.

Also to be clear I think Horford will still be solid next year. If it was one year at 28 million I would obviously not think it was terrible. The 85 for 3 guaranteed for the subsequent seasons is where it really becomes a problem. Since I have answered your question can you answer how Horford is a top 30 player next year and after? I made a list

Lots of players are overpaid.  Overpaying for an above average starter who can help you win a championship isn't bad.  Assuming the Sixers ownership is willing to pay the tax, I don't see how Horford's longer deal hurts them much.  With Embiid, Harris and Simmons on their deals, they wouldn't have cap space even if Horford was on a 1 year deal. 

If you think them overpaying for Horford was a bad move, what should they have done instead?  If they'd offered him less, he'd probably still be a Celtic. 

[celticsclay]

Al Horford has the 23rd highest contract for the upcoming season, tied with Nikola Vucevic.  He probably is a bit worse than that as a player, but I'd say he should still have top 30ish impact when accounting for everything and he obviously is making more than anyone on a rookie scale contract. 

In 2020 without accounting for any new money (like say Anthony Davis), he has the 38th highest contract.  Again that doesn't seem that far off from where you would expect him to be especially without the rookie scale contracts.

In 2021 he is sitting at 28th.  By the time that season rolls around though he will be much lower than that after 2 more summers of new contracts. 

In 2022 (with all incentives), he is at 22nd.  That will obviously be much lower by the time the season rolls around, especially if he doesn't hit the incentives.

In other words, Horford is paid about where you would expect based on his perceived production.  This just seems like a case of not fully grasping just how much money players are making these days.  Everyone makes a ton of money.

Or if other people want to be equally as condescending as you we could just say this seems to be you not realizing how limited Horford is going to be at 33 and you fail to grasp the concept of aging? Maybe the board is better if you make the comments without your opinion of what people are grasping?

I would not have Horford close to 30 next year. He was not even In The conversation for being an all star in the east. He wouldn’t have been even whispered for conversation in the west. He also was significantly worse last year than the year prior and was noticeably banged up with concerns about his knee.

Strange in early June you were singing Horford's praises and saying things like if the C's acquired Davis the C's would have the best front court in the league.  Hands down.  Odd how he leaves the Celtics and becomes terrible, ages quickly, and isn't worth crap.  And I'm well aware that Davis is a great player, but how much better is Davis than Embiid (if at all)?  If Davis, Horford, and Hayward would have been the best front court in the league why isn't Embiid, Horford, and Harris? And again that was you in June of this year after the season.

I do think Harris and embiid and Horford could be the best frontcourt in the league. It is competitive. I do think Davis is better than embiid by a decent amount of healthy. Really weird deflection. What does that have to do with Horford making 28 million dollars. If you have a near all star in Harris, an mvp candidate and an above average starter in Horford does that mean you should overpay the above average starter? Really strange response.

Also to be clear I think Horford will still be solid next year. If it was one year at 28 million I would obviously not think it was terrible. The 85 for 3 guaranteed for the subsequent seasons is where it really becomes a problem. Since I have answered your question can you answer how Horford is a top 30 player next year and after? I made a list

Lots of players are overpaid.  Overpaying for an above average starter who can help you win a championship isn't bad.  Assuming the Sixers ownership is willing to pay the tax, I don't see how Horford's longer deal hurts them much.  With Embiid, Harris and Simmons on their deals, they wouldn't have cap space even if Horford was on a 1 year deal. 

If you think them overpaying for Horford was a bad move, what should they have done instead?  If they'd offered him less, he'd probably still be a Celtic.

Was butler leaving no matter what? I had a hard time determining if they ever offered him the full max. I saw a lot of conflicting reports. I certainly liked their team more with Harris and butler than Harris and Horford. I also don’t think Horford would still be a celtic, he would probably be a maverick. But this is all based on incomplete reporting

[obnoxiousmime]

Al Horford has the 23rd highest contract for the upcoming season, tied with Nikola Vucevic.  He probably is a bit worse than that as a player, but I'd say he should still have top 30ish impact when accounting for everything and he obviously is making more than anyone on a rookie scale contract. 

In 2020 without accounting for any new money (like say Anthony Davis), he has the 38th highest contract.  Again that doesn't seem that far off from where you would expect him to be especially without the rookie scale contracts.

In 2021 he is sitting at 28th.  By the time that season rolls around though he will be much lower than that after 2 more summers of new contracts. 

In 2022 (with all incentives), he is at 22nd.  That will obviously be much lower by the time the season rolls around, especially if he doesn't hit the incentives.

In other words, Horford is paid about where you would expect based on his perceived production.  This just seems like a case of not fully grasping just how much money players are making these days.  Everyone makes a ton of money.

Or if other people want to be equally as condescending as you we could just say this seems to be you not realizing how limited Horford is going to be at 33 and you fail to grasp the concept of aging? Maybe the board is better if you make the comments without your opinion of what people are grasping?

I would not have Horford close to 30 next year. He was not even In The conversation for being an all star in the east. He wouldn’t have been even whispered for conversation in the west. He also was significantly worse last year than the year prior and was noticeably banged up with concerns about his knee.

Strange in early June you were singing Horford's praises and saying things like if the C's acquired Davis the C's would have the best front court in the league.  Hands down.  Odd how he leaves the Celtics and becomes terrible, ages quickly, and isn't worth crap.  And I'm well aware that Davis is a great player, but how much better is Davis than Embiid (if at all)?  If Davis, Horford, and Hayward would have been the best front court in the league why isn't Embiid, Horford, and Harris? And again that was you in June of this year after the season.

I do think Harris and embiid and Horford could be the best frontcourt in the league. It is competitive. I do think Davis is better than embiid by a decent amount of healthy. Really weird deflection. What does that have to do with Horford making 28 million dollars. If you have a near all star in Harris, an mvp candidate and an above average starter in Horford does that mean you should overpay the above average starter? Really strange response.

Also to be clear I think Horford will still be solid next year. If it was one year at 28 million I would obviously not think it was terrible. The 85 for 3 guaranteed for the subsequent seasons is where it really becomes a problem. Since I have answered your question can you answer how Horford is a top 30 player next year and after? I made a list

Lots of players are overpaid.  Overpaying for an above average starter who can help you win a championship isn't bad.  Assuming the Sixers ownership is willing to pay the tax, I don't see how Horford's longer deal hurts them much.  With Embiid, Harris and Simmons on their deals, they wouldn't have cap space even if Horford was on a 1 year deal. 

If you think them overpaying for Horford was a bad move, what should they have done instead?  If they'd offered him less, he'd probably still be a Celtic.

Was butler leaving no matter what? I had a hard time determining if they ever offered him the full max. I saw a lot of conflicting reports. I certainly liked their team more with Harris and butler than Harris and Horford. I also don’t think Horford would still be a celtic, he would probably be a maverick. But this is all based on incomplete reporting

I heard Butler wanted "his own team." That was never going to happen on the Sixers, obviously, so a sign-and-trade was worked out with a place he was willing to go to. If you consider it kind of like a trade of Butler for Richardson and Horford, it's a win-win. Even if you think the Horford deal has the potential to be a bad one down the road, Richardson is signed for obscenely little considering what he brings to the table. He's making only 32.5 for the next three seasons and he is entering his peak.

Thanks again to Kyrie for telegraphing his destination ahead of time and ensuring the NYC teams could make the proper cap clearing preparations before the offseason officially began! Screw you, Celtics! You get nothing in return!

[Moranis]

Al Horford has the 23rd highest contract for the upcoming season, tied with Nikola Vucevic.  He probably is a bit worse than that as a player, but I'd say he should still have top 30ish impact when accounting for everything and he obviously is making more than anyone on a rookie scale contract. 

In 2020 without accounting for any new money (like say Anthony Davis), he has the 38th highest contract.  Again that doesn't seem that far off from where you would expect him to be especially without the rookie scale contracts.

In 2021 he is sitting at 28th.  By the time that season rolls around though he will be much lower than that after 2 more summers of new contracts. 

In 2022 (with all incentives), he is at 22nd.  That will obviously be much lower by the time the season rolls around, especially if he doesn't hit the incentives.

In other words, Horford is paid about where you would expect based on his perceived production.  This just seems like a case of not fully grasping just how much money players are making these days.  Everyone makes a ton of money.

Or if other people want to be equally as condescending as you we could just say this seems to be you not realizing how limited Horford is going to be at 33 and you fail to grasp the concept of aging? Maybe the board is better if you make the comments without your opinion of what people are grasping?

I would not have Horford close to 30 next year. He was not even In The conversation for being an all star in the east. He wouldn’t have been even whispered for conversation in the west. He also was significantly worse last year than the year prior and was noticeably banged up with concerns about his knee.

Strange in early June you were singing Horford's praises and saying things like if the C's acquired Davis the C's would have the best front court in the league.  Hands down.  Odd how he leaves the Celtics and becomes terrible, ages quickly, and isn't worth crap.  And I'm well aware that Davis is a great player, but how much better is Davis than Embiid (if at all)?  If Davis, Horford, and Hayward would have been the best front court in the league why isn't Embiid, Horford, and Harris? And again that was you in June of this year after the season.

I do think Harris and embiid and Horford could be the best frontcourt in the league. It is competitive. I do think Davis is better than embiid by a decent amount of healthy. Really weird deflection. What does that have to do with Horford making 28 million dollars. If you have a near all star in Harris, an mvp candidate and an above average starter in Horford does that mean you should overpay the above average starter? Really strange response.

Also to be clear I think Horford will still be solid next year. If it was one year at 28 million I would obviously not think it was terrible. The 85 for 3 guaranteed for the subsequent seasons is where it really becomes a problem. Since I have answered your question can you answer how Horford is a top 30 player next year and after? I made a list

I said he would have a top 30ish impact, that is not the same thing as being a top 30 player.  Many players have a greater impact then their ability in a vacuum.  Horford is one of those players.  He will impact the Sixers a great deal more than his actually ability as a player would lead one to believe because of all the little things he does.  For example, his ability to give Embiid rest and help, his great shooting, passing, defense, etc.  Horford is not a top 30 player, but I absolutely believe he will have a top 30ish impact on winning.  He is also their 4th best player and is paid like he is their 4th best player going forward at a rate of around 19% of the cap.  That is probably a bit overpaid, but not significantly.  Horford just finished year 12, so his better days are behind him, but I don't see him falling off a cliff any time soon either.  His style of play is not built on uber-athleticism, strength, etc. so he should be able to hang around as a very good player for the life of his contract. 

[tazzmaniac]

Al Horford has the 23rd highest contract for the upcoming season, tied with Nikola Vucevic.  He probably is a bit worse than that as a player, but I'd say he should still have top 30ish impact when accounting for everything and he obviously is making more than anyone on a rookie scale contract. 

In 2020 without accounting for any new money (like say Anthony Davis), he has the 38th highest contract.  Again that doesn't seem that far off from where you would expect him to be especially without the rookie scale contracts.

In 2021 he is sitting at 28th.  By the time that season rolls around though he will be much lower than that after 2 more summers of new contracts. 

In 2022 (with all incentives), he is at 22nd.  That will obviously be much lower by the time the season rolls around, especially if he doesn't hit the incentives.

In other words, Horford is paid about where you would expect based on his perceived production.  This just seems like a case of not fully grasping just how much money players are making these days.  Everyone makes a ton of money.

Or if other people want to be equally as condescending as you we could just say this seems to be you not realizing how limited Horford is going to be at 33 and you fail to grasp the concept of aging? Maybe the board is better if you make the comments without your opinion of what people are grasping?

I would not have Horford close to 30 next year. He was not even In The conversation for being an all star in the east. He wouldn’t have been even whispered for conversation in the west. He also was significantly worse last year than the year prior and was noticeably banged up with concerns about his knee.

Strange in early June you were singing Horford's praises and saying things like if the C's acquired Davis the C's would have the best front court in the league.  Hands down.  Odd how he leaves the Celtics and becomes terrible, ages quickly, and isn't worth crap.  And I'm well aware that Davis is a great player, but how much better is Davis than Embiid (if at all)?  If Davis, Horford, and Hayward would have been the best front court in the league why isn't Embiid, Horford, and Harris? And again that was you in June of this year after the season.

I do think Harris and embiid and Horford could be the best frontcourt in the league. It is competitive. I do think Davis is better than embiid by a decent amount of healthy. Really weird deflection. What does that have to do with Horford making 28 million dollars. If you have a near all star in Harris, an mvp candidate and an above average starter in Horford does that mean you should overpay the above average starter? Really strange response.

Also to be clear I think Horford will still be solid next year. If it was one year at 28 million I would obviously not think it was terrible. The 85 for 3 guaranteed for the subsequent seasons is where it really becomes a problem. Since I have answered your question can you answer how Horford is a top 30 player next year and after? I made a list

Lots of players are overpaid.  Overpaying for an above average starter who can help you win a championship isn't bad.  Assuming the Sixers ownership is willing to pay the tax, I don't see how Horford's longer deal hurts them much.  With Embiid, Harris and Simmons on their deals, they wouldn't have cap space even if Horford was on a 1 year deal. 

If you think them overpaying for Horford was a bad move, what should they have done instead?  If they'd offered him less, he'd probably still be a Celtic.

Was butler leaving no matter what? I had a hard time determining if they ever offered him the full max. I saw a lot of conflicting reports. I certainly liked their team more with Harris and butler than Harris and Horford. I also don’t think Horford would still be a celtic, he would probably be a maverick. But this is all based on incomplete reporting

I've seen a whole bunch of different rumors including they didn't even offer him the 4yr/Max and they offered him the 5yr/Max but he'd only re-sign if they traded Simmons.  I tend to think both sides decided he woukd be better off elsewhere and it worked out for the Sixers that it was Miami.  Miami tried to trade for Butler when the Sixers got him so I think there was already mutual interest. 

Would keeping Harris and Butler have actually been better?  Would Harris have even re-signed if Butler did?  Would Simmons have signed the extension if Butler has re-signed?  Would he have demanded a trade?  If they did re-sign Butler and Harris, it seems like they would have needed to re-sign Redick.   

They'd be much worse defensively.  They'd be in a worse financial situation.  Probably a tax team this season.  They'd be significantly older with two players at or past their peak.  The Butler fit with Simmons was poor and Butler also limited Harris.  How well would Butler's game have aged?  Would Butler have been able to get through 5 years without causing problems?   

Look at it this way, going into last season their starting lineup was Simmons, Redick, Covington, Saric and Embiid.  Now their starting lineup is Simmons, Richardson, Harris, Horford and Embiid.   That's the difference between a pretender and an actual contender. 

[cman88]

You cant look at it based on the start of last seasons lineup...you have to look at it like this...

They replaced reddick/butler with richardson/Horford

To me that's a downgrade. Reddick is a huge loss. Not sure where their 3 point shooting is going to come from

[CF033]

You cant look at it based on the start of last seasons lineup...you have to look at it like this...

They replaced reddick/butler with richardson/Horford

To me that's a downgrade. Reddick is a huge loss. Not sure where their 3 point shooting is going to come from

I agree with this, I think the 76ers are going to be the same or a little worse than they were last year and not championship contenders.