KG in the Post - Easier Said Than Done

[Big Ticket]

Just wanted to give some of the posters here another thing to think about.  I've been reading/hearing/seeing people say all season (and for the past 8 seasons really) that KG needs to dominate the paint.  Heck, there is an article in the Herald about it today and I think every single one of wdleehi's near 10,000 posts contains the sentence "KG needs to get in the post."

But really, it's not that easy.  KG does not weight 275+ pounds (in fact, only 250...  ) and he gets pushed of the box into the "mid"-post fairly easily..... especially late in games.  He can get there early on because his legs or fresh and the defense is not as urgent to keep him out.  But fast forward to the 4th quarter, when a relatively fresh and bulky player starts focusing 100% effort on keeping KG out of the post... pretty easy to do when KG's legs are drained from fighting the uphill battle of keeping good, deep position against a bigger player.

He's been able to get position all series against Joe Smith it seems, but Wallace and Varajeo are much stronger and much more physical.  KG can't play in the post all game.  He doesn't have the body for it.  If he does it early on to get the Celtics some easier baskets, odds are he'll have a tougher time late in games.

If you just say "whatever it's the playoffs he needs to step up, dig deep, and fight for his spot."... well, again, easier said than done.

The best way for him to have the energy and strength late in the game is for somebody else to step up and contribute during the rest of the game.  Unfortunately, outside of two good 1st halves by Rondo, nobody else has shown up.

If Ray and Pierce play decent, KG will play better.  I'd love for him to dominate the paint all game as much as the next guy... but I also realize that it can't and won't happen.

[teddykgb]

I agree with this to an extent, and would add that our offense really isn't conducive to KG being in the low block, because he can't be in two places at once.  He's often out setting the pick and roll screen, or asked to screen across to free up someone like Allen, and neither is particularly conducive to him also setting up shop on the low block, which needs to be done early in the shot clock for it to be effective.  The bottom line is that we run a motion offense, which means he has offensive responsibilities that involve a lot of screening and moving, not parking on the low box and seeing what develops.  He's also not that great with his back to the basket, and his instincts are often wrong, he very frequently over-fakes and turns right into the defender.  Every once in a while he shows an up and under move he could kill people with, but the move probably isn't natural to him, so instead he does that double/triple/quadruple shimmy and defenders like Varejao just don't even bother trying and end up in good defensive position as a result of not moving.

[Who]

Absolutely not. It has nothing to do with his size. He's big enough to get the job done.

It's about committed and not committed

It's about willingness, willing or not willing

KG isn't committed to playing the post and he isn't willing to be there consistently. He doesn't want the contact, he shies away from it. That's all this is about and it's been the same old story throughout his career.

[wdleehi]

How big was Josh Smith?

Ben Wallace? 




He isn't posting up Shaq out there.  These are guys he is stronger then and taller. 

[teddykgb]

You guys are crazy, these aren't small men he's posting up.

Physically, he can, and if we played a different offense he even might.  But Cleveland is bringing an immediate double team on any early post to Garnett, forcing him to pass out of it.  Watch for yourself tonight, any early dump into KG in the post is met by Rondo's man shading either to the double itself, or to cover a closer player while that man doubles down.  It's definitely their gameplan, and Garnett either has to shoot over it or pass out of it, since he's not McHale and isn't going to be splitting double teams in the post all night.  Now, if your criticism is that Garnett isn't one of the best post players of all time, then I guess he's guilty.

But what's maddening is the claim that he's not working hard enough to establish position.  You just can't watch the games and say that.  It isn't Kevin's choice as to when and where he posts, that's part of the offensive scheme.  They're the ones asking him to screen and play at the elbow, that's the scheme.  It isn't a lack of effort that has him shooting elbow jumpers, that's just a complete misread of what the celtics are doing.

[wdleehi]

You guys are crazy, these aren't small men he's posting up.

Physically, he can, and if we played a different offense he even might.  But Cleveland is bringing an immediate double team on any early post to Garnett, forcing him to pass out of it.  Watch for yourself tonight, any early dump into KG in the post is met by Rondo's man shading either to the double itself, or to cover a closer player while that man doubles down.  It's definitely their gameplan, and Garnett either has to shoot over it or pass out of it, since he's not McHale and isn't going to be splitting double teams in the post all night.  Now, if your criticism is that Garnett isn't one of the best post players of all time, then I guess he's guilty.

But what's maddening is the claim that he's not working hard enough to establish position.  You just can't watch the games and say that.  It isn't Kevin's choice as to when and where he posts, that's part of the offensive scheme.  They're the ones asking him to screen and play at the elbow, that's the scheme.  It isn't a lack of effort that has him shooting elbow jumpers, that's just a complete misread of what the celtics are doing.

These are men he has an advantage on down there.


And instead of waiting for the double all the time, he needs to waste no time and make his move to the basket. 

[teddykgb]

So what you're saying is you want Kevin Garnett to rush an early shot in the shot clock to avoid a double team which will give us a temporary 4 on 3 offensive advantage? Does that really make any sense to you?

Garnett is what he is, and he's been great in the playoffs.  He's been our most consistent performer, and a rock on both ends of the floor.  On the list of things to complain about in the 2008 playoffs, Kevin Garnett has to be last.  Aside from the first two losses in Altanta, he's consistently hit big shots and stopped runs for the other team.  We've consistently gotten into trouble when we've taken him off the floor to rest, and he's consistently stepped back in to save our asses.

He isn't a dominant post player.  He's not going to be one.  He IS a dominant step out jump shooter and a fantastic turnaround fadeaway shooter.  He goes to the rim enough to keep teams honest, he lacks the finesse to make shots while moving.  Athleticism is great, but runners and other shots require a touch that he doesn't have, so if he goes to the rim he almost universally needs to dunk it, which is extremely opposed to Al Jefferson, who could make almost any ball he released bounce 4 times and somehow fall in.  They're just different players, and KG is making his contributions the best way he can.  He's shooting a high percentage and pouring it all out there on the floor.  Parroting back a bunch of tired old idioms about working harder and how he needs to be in the post really isn't appreciating his game for what it is.

[wdleehi]

So what you're saying is you want Kevin Garnett to rush an early shot in the shot clock to avoid a double team which will give us a temporary 4 on 3 offensive advantage? Does that really make any sense to you?

Garnett is what he is, and he's been great in the playoffs.  He's been our most consistent performer, and a rock on both ends of the floor.  On the list of things to complain about in the 2008 playoffs, Kevin Garnett has to be last.  Aside from the first two losses in Altanta, he's consistently hit big shots and stopped runs for the other team.  We've consistently gotten into trouble when we've taken him off the floor to rest, and he's consistently stepped back in to save our asses.

He isn't a dominant post player.  He's not going to be one.  He IS a dominant step out jump shooter and a fantastic turnaround fadeaway shooter.  He goes to the rim enough to keep teams honest, he lacks the finesse to make shots while moving.  Athleticism is great, but runners and other shots require a touch that he doesn't have, so if he goes to the rim he almost universally needs to dunk it, which is extremely opposed to Al Jefferson, who could make almost any ball he released bounce 4 times and somehow fall in.  They're just different players, and KG is making his contributions the best way he can.  He's shooting a high percentage and pouring it all out there on the floor.  Parroting back a bunch of tired old idioms about working harder and how he needs to be in the post really isn't appreciating his game for what it is.

No.  I want him think score first down low. 

Just because he doesn't take his time to see what the defense is doing to react to him catching the ball down low, doesn't mean he is rushing a shot.  It means as soon as he gets it, he goes into the attack mode.  Not the read and react mode.

[Big Ticket]

Absolutely not. It has nothing to do with his size. He's big enough to get the job done.

It's about committed and not committed

It's about willingness, willing or not willing

KG isn't committed to playing the post and he isn't willing to be there consistently. He doesn't want the contact, he shies away from it. That's all this is about and it's been the same old story throughout his career.

I disagree.  He is fighting for deep position consistently throughout the game.  Not every possession, but just as much as other big post threads in this league.  The difference is that he tires out because he is the one having to "fight" against a rotation of fresh bodies, and he has nowhere near the bulk that Duncan, Howard, or ever Sheed do.

[Mr October]

...Or if the initial post up fails, there is time to repost on the same side, or even better, swing the ball and repost on the other side.

...Or if they want KG in passing mode, give him the ball 19' at the top of the key like they did all season, and let him pass to slashers. I don't recall seeing any of this in the post season.

[Big Ticket]

How big was Josh Smith?

Ben Wallace? 




He isn't posting up Shaq out there.  These are guys he is stronger then and taller. 

He had no trouble getting position against Smith.  His problem with Smith was rushing a bad shot because he was affected by Smith's shot blocking presence. 

Ben Wallace is bigger than him.  Height does not always equal big.  Wallace can force him off the deep post so KG takes advantage of the mismatch by shooting over him... yet to some people that is not good enough.

[Las Vegas Asian]

Absolutely not. It has nothing to do with his size. He's big enough to get the job done.

It's about committed and not committed

It's about willingness, willing or not willing

KG isn't committed to playing the post and he isn't willing to be there consistently. He doesn't want the contact, he shies away from it. That's all this is about and it's been the same old story throughout his career.

Here! Here! TP! McHale weighed like 220-230lbs. during his playing days and he NEVER shied from going down low in the post against anyone.(Well except that year he got a little 3pt Happy!) Really surprising KG didnt learn more post moves from McHale with all the time they spent in MINN. 

[CT34]

KG doesn’t have to dominate the paint IMO but what has to happen is the ball has to go into the paint are the start of the offense.  Keving Garnett is getting double every time he touches the ball and the guy who is coming over to double is Rondo man.  So why not put Eddie House in the game??  Now who’s going to double?  The guy who’s guarding Perk?  I like that because Perk should have an open dunk.

Another person I like to see more of in the paint is Paul Pierce.  Why not post up Lebron James.  Let Paul get Lebron into the popcorn popper and go to work.  

However the key to the Celtics post game is spacing.  We can’t space the floor with Rondo on the court and the guy who really helped the team spacing was Eddie House.  Doc Rivers have to get off his high horse and give Eddie House some minutes.  

The play-offs is about adjustments and matchups.  Going into this series I thought the Cs had the advantage at 3 out of the 5 position on the court.  We have yet to take advantage of anything.  Tonight would be a good night to start.

[td450]

KG shoots turnarounds at a very high percentage considering the type of shot he's taking. I don't care if he's not taking classic post move based shots if he's shooting 55%. He doesn't hold the ball or force his offense. He draws doubles and he passes when he should.

Posting up KG may be unorthodox but it produces what the team needs. It creates pressure on the D, he makes good decisions and the ball moves properly.