Trading Smart allowed Derrick White to Blossom?

[lbgreen33]

I agree. Loved Smart, but it was time to move on as he was holding the team back. Remember that White putback against Miami after the missed contested turnaround three by Smart, while White was open in the corner?

Anyway, Brad Stevens has done a good job, to say the least. Two years at the steering wheel.
A quick overview of his consequential major player moves (2nd round picks and other non-substantial elements excluded):

Kemba Walker + 1st round pick (became Alperen Sengün) => Al Horford (and Moses Brown)
Moses Brown => Josh Richardson
Signed Enes Freedom and Dennis Schröder
Josh Richardson + Romeo Langford + 1st round pick (became Blake Wesley) => Derrick White
Enes Freedom + Dennis Schröder => Daniel Theis
Aaron Nesmith + Daniel Theis + first round pick (became Julian Strawther) => Malcolm Brogdon
Signed Sam Hauser to a multi-year contract
Signed Danilo Gallinari
Marcus Smart + Danilo Gallinari => Kristaps Porzingis + two 1st round picks
Malcolm Brogdon + Robert Williams + two 1st round picks => Jrue Holiday

Summary: Walker, Smart, Langford, Fournier, Nesmith, G.Williams, Thompson, R.Williams and 3 first rounders => Holiday, White, Hauser, Horford, Porzingis

I agree with this, Brad has done a great job. Although I do really like Sengun! Not sure he would be a Celtic, but he would have been a really nice piece. Trust me I love Horford, just a lot of up side to AS's Future!

[Vermont Green]

Draft picks are unknowns.  Some turn out great, some turn out to be total busts.  Sengun is developing into a nice player.  In the meantime, Horford has been a mainstay of the team for 3 seasons and counting.  It is just how these types of trades work out.

Back to the theme of the thread, I don't buy that Smart was interfering in any way with the development of White.  He was very bad the first half season when he arrived.  The next season, with Smart on the team, he improved significantly from his first half season.  Now Smart is gone and White is still improving.  He improved when Smart was here, he is improving with Smart gone.  This is about Derrick White, not Marcus Smart.

Smart averaged 9.9 FGA last season, Holiday is averaging 10.8 FGA this season.  Why would Smart taking 10 shots be an interference but not Holiday taking 11?

And yes, Brad has done a good job.  Love the team he has assembled.

[jambr380]

Last years team was sitting exactly where this years team is with both Derrick and Marcus and no kristaps so hard to say.

idk, that run last year was on extremely hot 3 point shooting looking back on it. also what was our SOS vs. now? honestly I don't know. I do know we've played the 4th toughest SOS.

I think Kristaps brings a different dynamic that we didn't see last year offensively. just IMO.

I think Derrick has stepped up and made another leap and brown has taken more playmaking duties with smart gone. Holiday has been willing to take a back seat. something i'm not sure Smart would have been able to.

I absolutely think kristaps makes us a better team for sure but this is about Marcus leaving making Derrick better…that could very well be the case but if you swap out jrue for Marcus on this team I don’t see us being worse

I agree with everything you’ve said. People are ready to pile on Marcus when we are exactly where we were last season. We didn’t accidentally win 57 games.

That being said, if we are talking about White’s continued improvement, it probably has more to do with moving Brogdon than moving Marcus. We have a virtual Marcus clone on the team in Jrue this year. Last year, White probably felt like the 3rd guard of the group because of Smart’s and Brogdon’s body of work in the league.

I do wish we had this version of White when we traded for him. He was so god-awful offensively for us in that Title run and especially bad in game 4 vs GSW where we were up with 5 minutes left with the chance to go up 3-1 in the series. I absolutely love White and can hardly blame him for that series, but we lost a great chance at a Title. Hopefully we can win it this year.

[Yuckabuck33]

smarts biggest issue was his stature on the team being the longest tenured and sort of viewing himself as part of a 'big 3". While talent wise he/brogdon(when healthy last year)/White were all comparable talent his stature basically meant they played smart over white or he took the final shot at times.

thats not to say I don't love smart. personally, I'm not sure Holiday alone is a much different player/improvement than if we had smart/white.

the difference is its easier for someone from the outside like Holiday to come into someone elses team and take a step back and say "this is your team" than someone who has been there the longest.

Where's the evidence that Marcus thought of himself as part of a Big 3?

[RodyTur10]

After another very solid performance against the Lakers with 18 points and 11 assists, Derrick White is now 7th in EPM, 12th in EW, 10th in BPM, 13th in WS, 13th in VORP and 3rd overall in +/- in the league.

Top 10 in EPM (Estimated Plus-Minus)

1. Joel Embiid
2. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
3. Nikola Jokic
4. Giannis Antetokounmpo
5. Luka Doncic
6. LeBron James
7. Derrick White
8. Anthony Davis
9. Chet Holmgren
10. Kawhi Leonard

11-20 (Haliburton, Young, Fox, Lillard, Barnes, Curry, Mitchell, Booker, Durant, Maxey)

Top 10 in BPM (Box Plus-Minus)

1. Nikola Jokic
2. Joel Embiid
3. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
4. Luka Doncic
5. LeBron James
6. Tyrese Haliburton
7. Giannis Antetokounmpo
8. Scottie Barnes
9. Stephen Curry
10. Derrick White

11-20 (Sengün, Leonard, Harden, Mitchell, Durant, Davis, Sabonis, Fox, Porzingis, Holmgren)

sources: https://dunksandthrees.com/epm and https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2024_advanced.html

[Celtics2021]

smarts biggest issue was his stature on the team being the longest tenured and sort of viewing himself as part of a 'big 3". While talent wise he/brogdon(when healthy last year)/White were all comparable talent his stature basically meant they played smart over white or he took the final shot at times.

thats not to say I don't love smart. personally, I'm not sure Holiday alone is a much different player/improvement than if we had smart/white.

the difference is its easier for someone from the outside like Holiday to come into someone elses team and take a step back and say "this is your team" than someone who has been there the longest.

Where's the evidence that Marcus thought of himself as part of a Big 3?

I’m going to guess he did, but if he didn’t, Tatum and Brown did.  At the beginning of last year the Js and Smart were on the cover of I think Sports Illustrated, after the J’s had refused to do the photo shoot unless Smart was also included.

[Yuckabuck33]

smarts biggest issue was his stature on the team being the longest tenured and sort of viewing himself as part of a 'big 3". While talent wise he/brogdon(when healthy last year)/White were all comparable talent his stature basically meant they played smart over white or he took the final shot at times.

thats not to say I don't love smart. personally, I'm not sure Holiday alone is a much different player/improvement than if we had smart/white.

the difference is its easier for someone from the outside like Holiday to come into someone elses team and take a step back and say "this is your team" than someone who has been there the longest.

Where's the evidence that Marcus thought of himself as part of a Big 3?

I’m going to guess he did, but if he didn’t, Tatum and Brown did.  At the beginning of last year the Js and Smart were on the cover of I think Sports Illustrated, after the J’s had refused to do the photo shoot unless Smart was also included.

I think Marcus has better self-reflection than that. But I believe the photo shoot came while there was some talk about who the team leaders/captains were, which is why the Js would want hom there. Not every picture of 3 teammates has to be a declaration of a Big 3.

[SparzWizard]

Media quick to name a Big 3 in each team when there's three "dominant" players on the team.

I'm not sure who is the big 3 on this current team. Porzingis or Jrue? Or Derrick White? Maybe swap Brown out of that duo? Technically Horford was a Big 3 back then when we had Isaiah Thomas, Brown, and Horford. Even Kyrie, Hayward and Horford was a Big 3 while Brown and Tatum were here. Timelord was also considered a Big 3 with Tatum and Brown during our Finals run. I think the term has been overused lol

[Celtics2021]

Media quick to name a Big 3 in each team when there's three "dominant" players on the team.

I'm not sure who is the big 3 on this current team. Porzingis or Jrue? Or Derrick White? Maybe swap Brown out of that duo? Technically Horford was a Big 3 back then when we had Isaiah Thomas, Brown, and Horford. Even Kyrie, Hayward and Horford was a Big 3 while Brown and Tatum were here. Timelord was also considered a Big 3 with Tatum and Brown during our Finals run. I think the term has been overused lol

There was no Big 3 with Brown, Thomas, and Horford, lol, unless I’m forgetting a “Brown” other than Jaylen.  Jaylen was a rookie who was getting benched in the playoffs.  IT and Horford were a big 2, with Bradley, Crowder, Smart, and Olynyk probably the best candidates as the #3, but none were anywhere near the level of IT and Al, who were both All-Stars their one year together, if I’m not mistaken.

That said, I agree the “Big 3” is often media-driven, and certainly shouldn’t apply to this year’s Celtics team.  I think last year’s team made more sense with Smart having come off a DPOY honor, so he was more “star-ish” entering last season than any other in his career.  I’m not sure that was great for the Celtics, however, but the narrative made some sense.

[celticsclay]

smarts biggest issue was his stature on the team being the longest tenured and sort of viewing himself as part of a 'big 3". While talent wise he/brogdon(when healthy last year)/White were all comparable talent his stature basically meant they played smart over white or he took the final shot at times.

thats not to say I don't love smart. personally, I'm not sure Holiday alone is a much different player/improvement than if we had smart/white.

the difference is its easier for someone from the outside like Holiday to come into someone elses team and take a step back and say "this is your team" than someone who has been there the longest.

Where's the evidence that Marcus thought of himself as part of a Big 3?

I’m going to guess he did, but if he didn’t, Tatum and Brown did.  At the beginning of last year the Js and Smart were on the cover of I think Sports Illustrated, after the J’s had refused to do the photo shoot unless Smart was also included.

I think Marcus has better self-reflection than that. But I believe the photo shoot came while there was some talk about who the team leaders/captains were, which is why the Js would want hom there. Not every picture of 3 teammates has to be a declaration of a Big 3.

This isn’t even as bad as the lakers this year with Davis and Lebron doing the same thing with reaves at their media day.

[Phantom255x]

In a lot of press conferences, Smart literally would say "the team needs me, this team will succeed when I'm out there hustling", etc. A lot of "I" in his responses. And look, some of that was fine in 2022 when he was the DPOY and playing well for the team. The problem was, late in games, he'd be out there over White/Brogdon and teams would leave Smart open and say, "sure, go ahead and keep chucking". And he would and he'd keep predictably missing.

Remember 2022 ECF Game 7 on the road? The final 3 minutes where we nearly blew a double-digit lead and probably would have if Butler hit the 3. Smart bricked a ton of shots before then and also took some bad, early shots instead of letting the team run the offense and search for a better shot.

And do people also remember when before playoff games he'd almost be "coaching" Mazzulla on the sidelines, and once in a game he literally substituted himself into a game without Mazz's approval/knowledge beforehand. I know Mazzulla gets a lot of criticism but idk if it's a good look to basically publicly undermine a HC

He definitely grew a bit of an ego in his final few seasons here.

Again, I do love and miss Smart, but the reality is he's best off as a 6th man on a team, not a starting guard. And with him gone, it definitely seems to have given the keys more to the Jays and allowed them to be real leaders and not have any question's about that since Smart was technically the "longest tenured Celtics" before 2023.

[Celtics2021]

smarts biggest issue was his stature on the team being the longest tenured and sort of viewing himself as part of a 'big 3". While talent wise he/brogdon(when healthy last year)/White were all comparable talent his stature basically meant they played smart over white or he took the final shot at times.

thats not to say I don't love smart. personally, I'm not sure Holiday alone is a much different player/improvement than if we had smart/white.

the difference is its easier for someone from the outside like Holiday to come into someone elses team and take a step back and say "this is your team" than someone who has been there the longest.

Where's the evidence that Marcus thought of himself as part of a Big 3?

I’m going to guess he did, but if he didn’t, Tatum and Brown did.  At the beginning of last year the Js and Smart were on the cover of I think Sports Illustrated, after the J’s had refused to do the photo shoot unless Smart was also included.

I think Marcus has better self-reflection than that. But I believe the photo shoot came while there was some talk about who the team leaders/captains were, which is why the Js would want hom there. Not every picture of 3 teammates has to be a declaration of a Big 3.

This isn’t even as bad as the lakers this year with Davis and Lebron doing the same thing with reaves at their media day.

I think it’s just different.  I like Smart a ton, but I think the J’s did defer to him a lot and it may not always have been best for their personal growth.  He was sort of their emotional crutch at times, and I do think they saw him as much more of an equal than they ought to have in the hierarchy that naturally forms on most teams.  LeBron and AD, on the other hand, know their standing, but like Reaves and were trying to use their standing to help elevate him.

Think to the story we’ve heard since  the beginning of the season, where Tatum called a meeting among the top 6, and said something to the effect of “Someone isn’t going to start, and isn’t going to be me and it isn’t going to be JB that sits”.  And they worked it out amongst themselves and Horford comes off the bench.  I just don’t think he calls that meeting if Smart is on the team.  That’s not meant to be a criticism of anyone — just an observation of Tatum’s growth in leadership as a result of their being more room on the team for such leadership.

[Neurotic Guy]

I don’t know whether or not Smart thought of himself as equal to, or third wheel to, the Jays. But I feel pretty strong that he’s a 10-15 mpg rotation player on the current team. A defensive energy boost guy, sharing time with Pritchard depending on the situation.  Not sure Marcus would have tolerated that too well.  I don’t miss him, though he’d be a good depth piece.

[SHAQATTACK]

To add to above ,  Marcus may have used up his best years with ruff and tumble style defense and giving up his body .  He needed a finesse game and  some offensive skills he could count on to replace the body beating game . I was a huge fan till he started thinking he was Curry.

[Moranis]

Smart was the emotional leader of the team.  Heck he might have just been the flat out leader.  He was no where near as good as Brown let alone Tatum though.  And I do think that caused some issues.  Smart just couldn't be the leader without taking stupid shots and making dumb decisions.  He seemed to have the idea that because he was the leader her had to score and take shots, and that was his downfall and why he had to leave.  He just couldn't step back enough because he just wasn't good enough to step back.

And a big 3 isn't really a thing.  Very very rare to have 3 players on near equal footing and also very rare for champs to function that way.  The C's were abnormal as were the Heat (though Bosh was also pretty clearly below Lebron and Wade).  Most champions have a top 5 guy, a top 15 guy, and then a few top 50ish players.