Hornets (13-19) at Celtics (19-7) Game #27 12/22/19

[Somebody]

I think what Tatum is doing while on a 50 win team is important because of a context you just are not going to get from looking at stats, and I really don't care how box scorey or advanced those starts are.

What Tatum is showing is that he can be an important cog on a winning team while playing winning basketball. No, not that he plays basketball for a team that wins, but plays winning basketball.

For instance, Marcus Smart has been on losing, mediocre and good teams here in Boston but always played winning basketball. Some bad stat years, both advanced and box score, but he played winning basketball. It is sort of like that old saying about p0rnography, not sure it can be completely explained what it is but you sure know it when you see it.

You just don't find a lot of 21 year olds that play winning basketball while performing at a very high production level and being a major contributor to a team that is a contender. That is unusual and hard to find.

I never said I didn't rate him - I think he's an All-Star right now with All-NBA upside. But MVP/ATG potential on par with the guys who fit smokeablount's cherry picked criteria? I don't think so lol.

[Fafnir]

I don't get the "not driving the team's offense to heights" criticism. Tatum's a key cog in the 4th best offense in the league.

Also the statement that he's not shown any progress as a passer to my mind is just false. Both by the eye test and the numbers.

Assist per 100
2.6
3.3
4.0

Assist %
8.3
10.0
13.3

He's running more pick and roll this year, more drive and kick possessions etc. too. He hasn't made a big leap, but steady gains are encouraging to me.

[Somebody]

I don't get the "not driving the team's offense to heights" criticism. Tatum's a key cog in the 4th best offense in the league.

Also the statement that he's not shown any progress as a passer to my mind is just false. Both by the eye test and the numbers.

Assist per 100
2.6
3.3
4.0

Assist %
8.3
10.0
13.3

He's running more pick and roll this year, more drive and kick possessions etc. too. He hasn't made a big leap, but steady gains are encouraging to me.

Is he a key cog in a good offence? Yes. But is he a key figurehead who's quarterbacking a good (or even elite) offence like Magic Johnson (who fits the criteria Smoke threw out there)? Absolutely not, and this is what separates an All-NBA guy from an MVP calibre player if you're not a defensive anchor.

Note the word significant, I recognise that he has made incremental growth and expect him to keep on doing so, but it'll more likely stagnate than explode imo (as I said player growth isn't linear, and I don't think his passing game has the building blocks for him to make that exponential jump), he's still very lacking as a passer if you're looking at him as an offensive centrepiece of an elite offence in the modern NBA that's shifting more and more towards heliocentric models.

[Fafnir]

But his improvement has been significant! Sigh.

If you standard is a player needs to be a MVP caliber to be excited about, you're going to lead a very sad NBA fandom. Heliocentrism is a fun buzz word that ESPN has been pushing, but the C's are running a really good offense without doing it and they aren't alone in the NBA in doing so.

Edit: Oh I see you're arguing that he doesn't have a MVP ceiling? Fair enough I guess, though I think Westbrook and Rose's (even Nash's) wins are the counter-example to that. Being the MVP requires a narrative as much as any statistical measure.

[Somebody]

But his improvement has been significant! Sigh.

If you standard is a player needs to be a MVP caliber to be excited about, you're going to lead a very sad NBA fandom. Heliocentrism is a fun buzz word that ESPN has been pushing, but the C's are running a really good offense without doing it and they aren't alone in the NBA in doing so.

Edit: Oh I see you're arguing that he doesn't have a MVP ceiling? Fair enough I guess, though I think Westbrook and Rose's (even Nash's) wins are the counter-example to that. Being the MVP requires a narrative as much as any statistical measure.

Oh no I'm plenty excited with a 21 year old All-Star calibre wing with All-NBA potential, a decade plus of All-Star production is top 60 All-Time stuff which any fan should be salivating at the prospect of.

And yeah I was arguing about that lol. Btw I was talking about an MVP calibre peak, not actually winning an MVP (I've been on record showing my disregard of the importance of individual accolades in measuring a player's impact) although I think that Nash had a GOAT level offensive peak (which gives him a strong MVP peak imo) due to his unrivaled tablesetting in the modern 3 point heavy game (I believe only Magic was his contemporary in that department in the history of the league).