About the Schröder signing...

[RJ87]

Schroder for cheap is a no brainer.

However, it made me think Smart was on the move. The timing of the Smart extension doesn't make much sense to me.

I'm not sure what to make of our rotation now.

Smart 22/Schroder 26/Dunn

Brown 26/Pritchard 18/Smart 4/Langford

Richardson 24/Neismith 14/Brown 10

Tatum 36/Parker 12/GWill

Horford 26/Williams 22/Kanter/Bruno

? Meh.

The signing was a no brainer,  but Schröder is not exactly putting the C’s over the top to compete with the Nets, Lakers, or Bucks for a championship. So having him for 1 year when you can’t re-sign him doesn’t make sense to me. He is just going to take away minutes from Smart, who allegedly wants to be more of PG and Pritchard who looks to have improved. Dennis has value and the C’s are fine at the PG position, so trade him to a team that might be willing to give up a late first or a couple of second round picks. 

Some have mentioned Smart’s extension will make him a better trade asset in a package for a player such as Beal, However, Is Washington or another team going to want Marcus when he’s being overpaid by $3-5M a year? I’m not sure that they do.

Wait, why can't we compete? You all are just dismissing the C's chances already? I don't think the Lakers - Bucks are significantly better than us. If the new coach gets us playing good basketball, we could easily be like the Suns last year, and they were up 2-0 in the finals. We have a good team! Two all-stars and finally - finally - a group of high-end role players around them. Schroder is a good player. Horford is a good player. Richardson is a good player. If Nesmith, PP, and Timelord make another jump, I fully expect us to be in the eastern conference finals. Yeah, Brooklyn will be tough but highly likely one or more of their big three will be injured or having a mental breakdown. Everyone is dismissing the Celtics - the media is talking about them just squeaking into the playoffs - and I think on paper this is a top 4 team in the East.

I think the C’s will be better than last year, but unless 2 of the Nets, Lakers, and Bucks star players get hurt, the C’s are not going to be beating them in a 7 game series.I could see Boston finishing anywhere from a 3 seed to a 6th in the East.

That's very optimistic - I have us finishing anywhere from 6th to 10th in the East next season.

Which teams other than the Bucks and Nets have a better starting 5 than Smart, Richardson, Brown, Tatum, Horford? I’m not seeing any.

Is Richardson starting? I think we'd need some more shooting from that spot. The only locks to me are Tatum, Brown, and Smart with the rest to be sorted out in training camp. But to answer your question, Miami: Lowry/Robinson/Butler/Bam, Atlanta: Trae/Bogdan/Collins/Capela are more well-rounded bases for starting lineups than ours. More versatility, more size, more shooting.

I certainly hope Richardson is starting. I don’t want Smart or Schröder playing off the ball. 

Lowry=Smart/Schröder, Robinson<Richardson/Smart Butler<Brown, Tucker<Tatum, Bam>Horford.

Trae>Smart/Schröder, Brogdon/Hunter=Richardson, Huerter<Brown, Collins<Tatum, Capela<Horford. Again the C’s have better starters. Young is 6’1 so he’s the smallest player on either team, SG, SF, PF positions are the same height and The hawks are bigger at Center.
So their starters are not bigger. Shooting is about a wash too, Capela can’t shoot at all, Hunter is a poor shooter and Trae shot 34% from 3pt last year. 

The C’s have the two best players when they match up with either team as well.

I really don't think Josh Richardson is the player you seem to believe he is.

Lol at thinking Jaylen is better than Jimmy Butler. He's an all around better player who can impose his will on a game even without scoring. Ditto for Smart and Lowry. The Heat have more playmaking, they have more consistent shooting around their best players - Duncan has shot over 40% from 3 on more than 8 attempts per game two seasons in a row and Lowry shot 40% last year as well. They're going to be able to play inside out off of Bam and Jimmy.

For the Hawks, again the playmaking is better than ours. Our best playmaker (maybe Smart) would be a 2ndry ballhandler on their team. And Trae may have shot 34% last year, but you wouldn't create a defensive scheme to leave him open, can you say the same about Smart or Richardson or Schroeder? He has the gravity to pull defenders out of the paint.

[Goldstar88]

Schroder for cheap is a no brainer.

However, it made me think Smart was on the move. The timing of the Smart extension doesn't make much sense to me.

I'm not sure what to make of our rotation now.

Smart 22/Schroder 26/Dunn

Brown 26/Pritchard 18/Smart 4/Langford

Richardson 24/Neismith 14/Brown 10

Tatum 36/Parker 12/GWill

Horford 26/Williams 22/Kanter/Bruno

? Meh.

The signing was a no brainer,  but Schröder is not exactly putting the C’s over the top to compete with the Nets, Lakers, or Bucks for a championship. So having him for 1 year when you can’t re-sign him doesn’t make sense to me. He is just going to take away minutes from Smart, who allegedly wants to be more of PG and Pritchard who looks to have improved. Dennis has value and the C’s are fine at the PG position, so trade him to a team that might be willing to give up a late first or a couple of second round picks. 

Some have mentioned Smart’s extension will make him a better trade asset in a package for a player such as Beal, However, Is Washington or another team going to want Marcus when he’s being overpaid by $3-5M a year? I’m not sure that they do.

Wait, why can't we compete? You all are just dismissing the C's chances already? I don't think the Lakers - Bucks are significantly better than us. If the new coach gets us playing good basketball, we could easily be like the Suns last year, and they were up 2-0 in the finals. We have a good team! Two all-stars and finally - finally - a group of high-end role players around them. Schroder is a good player. Horford is a good player. Richardson is a good player. If Nesmith, PP, and Timelord make another jump, I fully expect us to be in the eastern conference finals. Yeah, Brooklyn will be tough but highly likely one or more of their big three will be injured or having a mental breakdown. Everyone is dismissing the Celtics - the media is talking about them just squeaking into the playoffs - and I think on paper this is a top 4 team in the East.

I think the C’s will be better than last year, but unless 2 of the Nets, Lakers, and Bucks star players get hurt, the C’s are not going to be beating them in a 7 game series.I could see Boston finishing anywhere from a 3 seed to a 6th in the East.

That's very optimistic - I have us finishing anywhere from 6th to 10th in the East next season.

Which teams other than the Bucks and Nets have a better starting 5 than Smart, Richardson, Brown, Tatum, Horford? I’m not seeing any.

Is Richardson starting? I think we'd need some more shooting from that spot. The only locks to me are Tatum, Brown, and Smart with the rest to be sorted out in training camp. But to answer your question, Miami: Lowry/Robinson/Butler/Bam, Atlanta: Trae/Bogdan/Collins/Capela are more well-rounded bases for starting lineups than ours. More versatility, more size, more shooting.

I certainly hope Richardson is starting. I don’t want Smart or Schröder playing off the ball. 

Lowry=Smart/Schröder, Robinson<Richardson/Smart Butler<Brown, Tucker<Tatum, Bam>Horford.

Trae>Smart/Schröder, Brogdon/Hunter=Richardson, Huerter<Brown, Collins<Tatum, Capela<Horford. Again the C’s have better starters. Young is 6’1 so he’s the smallest player on either team, SG, SF, PF positions are the same height and The hawks are bigger at Center.
So their starters are not bigger. Shooting is about a wash too, Capela can’t shoot at all, Hunter is a poor shooter and Trae shot 34% from 3pt last year. 

The C’s have the two best players when they match up with either team as well.

I really don't think Josh Richardson is the player you seem to believe he is.

Lol at thinking Jaylen is better than Jimmy Butler. He's an all around better player who can impose his will on a game even without scoring. Ditto for Smart and Lowry. The Heat have more playmaking, they have more consistent shooting around their best players - Duncan has shot over 40% from 3 on more than 8 attempts per game two seasons in a row and Lowry shot 40% last year as well. They're going to be able to play inside out off of Bam and Jimmy.

For the Hawks, again the playmaking is better than ours. Our best playmaker (maybe Smart) would be a 2ndry ballhandler on their team. And Trae may have shot 34% last year, but you wouldn't create a defensive scheme to leave him open, can you say the same about Smart or Richardson or Schroeder? He has the gravity to pull defenders out of the paint.

Before Kemba came back Brown was leading the C’s in scoring with 27ppg and he shot nearly 40% from 3pt for last year. Jaylen is getting better every year and I expect no different this season.

Butler on the other hand is turning 32 in a few weeks, he’s a horrendous 3pt shooter at 24% for last season and his team was absolutely steamrolled by the Bucks in the playoffs. Clean sweep, couldn’t even get one. Losing each game on average by 20+ppg. Yeah, Jimmy really imposed his will there..Lol.  I’d take Jaylen for this coming season and going forward every day of the week. Heat got exposed in the postseason and so did Jimmy.

[Jvalin]

Schroder for cheap is a no brainer.

However, it made me think Smart was on the move. The timing of the Smart extension doesn't make much sense to me.

I'm not sure what to make of our rotation now.

Smart 22/Schroder 26/Dunn

Brown 26/Pritchard 18/Smart 4/Langford

Richardson 24/Neismith 14/Brown 10

Tatum 36/Parker 12/GWill

Horford 26/Williams 22/Kanter/Bruno

? Meh.

The signing was a no brainer,  but Schröder is not exactly putting the C’s over the top to compete with the Nets, Lakers, or Bucks for a championship. So having him for 1 year when you can’t re-sign him doesn’t make sense to me. He is just going to take away minutes from Smart, who allegedly wants to be more of PG and Pritchard who looks to have improved. Dennis has value and the C’s are fine at the PG position, so trade him to a team that might be willing to give up a late first or a couple of second round picks. 

Some have mentioned Smart’s extension will make him a better trade asset in a package for a player such as Beal, However, Is Washington or another team going to want Marcus when he’s being overpaid by $3-5M a year? I’m not sure that they do.

Wait, why can't we compete? You all are just dismissing the C's chances already? I don't think the Lakers - Bucks are significantly better than us. If the new coach gets us playing good basketball, we could easily be like the Suns last year, and they were up 2-0 in the finals. We have a good team! Two all-stars and finally - finally - a group of high-end role players around them. Schroder is a good player. Horford is a good player. Richardson is a good player. If Nesmith, PP, and Timelord make another jump, I fully expect us to be in the eastern conference finals. Yeah, Brooklyn will be tough but highly likely one or more of their big three will be injured or having a mental breakdown. Everyone is dismissing the Celtics - the media is talking about them just squeaking into the playoffs - and I think on paper this is a top 4 team in the East.

I think the C’s will be better than last year, but unless 2 of the Nets, Lakers, and Bucks star players get hurt, the C’s are not going to be beating them in a 7 game series.I could see Boston finishing anywhere from a 3 seed to a 6th in the East.

That's very optimistic - I have us finishing anywhere from 6th to 10th in the East next season.

Which teams other than the Bucks and Nets have a better starting 5 than Smart, Richardson, Brown, Tatum, Horford? I’m not seeing any.

Is Richardson starting? I think we'd need some more shooting from that spot. The only locks to me are Tatum, Brown, and Smart with the rest to be sorted out in training camp. But to answer your question, Miami: Lowry/Robinson/Butler/Bam, Atlanta: Trae/Bogdan/Collins/Capela are more well-rounded bases for starting lineups than ours. More versatility, more size, more shooting.

I certainly hope Richardson is starting. I don’t want Smart or Schröder playing off the ball. 

Lowry=Smart/Schröder, Robinson<Richardson/Smart Butler<Brown, Tucker<Tatum, Bam>Horford.

Trae>Smart/Schröder, Brogdon/Hunter=Richardson, Huerter<Brown, Collins<Tatum, Capela<Horford. Again the C’s have better starters. Young is 6’1 so he’s the smallest player on either team, SG, SF, PF positions are the same height and The hawks are bigger at Center.
So their starters are not bigger. Shooting is about a wash too, Capela can’t shoot at all, Hunter is a poor shooter and Trae shot 34% from 3pt last year. 

The C’s have the two best players when they match up with either team as well.

I really don't think Josh Richardson is the player you seem to believe he is.

Lol at thinking Jaylen is better than Jimmy Butler. He's an all around better player who can impose his will on a game even without scoring. Ditto for Smart and Lowry. The Heat have more playmaking, they have more consistent shooting around their best players - Duncan has shot over 40% from 3 on more than 8 attempts per game two seasons in a row and Lowry shot 40% last year as well. They're going to be able to play inside out off of Bam and Jimmy.

For the Hawks, again the playmaking is better than ours. Our best playmaker (maybe Smart) would be a 2ndry ballhandler on their team. And Trae may have shot 34% last year, but you wouldn't create a defensive scheme to leave him open, can you say the same about Smart or Richardson or Schroeder? He has the gravity to pull defenders out of the paint.

I like the way you think! TP!

With all due respect, it's laughable when people compare players based on raw box score stats. Butler can run the offense, whereas Brown plays mostly off the ball. This is a massive difference in my book. Butler is hands down a better shot creator in the half court. It's not even close. Rule of thumb is that most playoff games are won in the half court. Brown is better in the open court. He's also better suited to play second fiddle to a legit go-to scorer, simply because he's a reliable 3pt shooter. They are both terrific defenders. In a vacuum, gimme Butler over Brown all day long.

That said,
- Brown is considerably younger.
- He's on a team friendly contract for the next 3 seasons.
- Butler needs to be the go-to guy. He cannot play off the ball cause he's a below average 3pt shooter. Is he versatile enough as a go-to scorer to lead his team to a championship? Don't think he is, although he led the Heat to the Finals last season. He relies a bit too much on his slashing game. Opposing teams can wall the paint and dare him to shoot the 3. From a team building perspective, I'd rather have Brown over Butler. I reckon it's easier to build a championship roster with Brown.

Long story short, I'd put it like this:
Butler is a mediocre #1 option. He cannot be a #2 option, cause he cannot play off the ball. Brown is a terrific #2 option / elite #3 option. He cannot be the #1 option cause he cannot run the offense.

[Somebody]

Schroder for cheap is a no brainer.

However, it made me think Smart was on the move. The timing of the Smart extension doesn't make much sense to me.

I'm not sure what to make of our rotation now.

Smart 22/Schroder 26/Dunn

Brown 26/Pritchard 18/Smart 4/Langford

Richardson 24/Neismith 14/Brown 10

Tatum 36/Parker 12/GWill

Horford 26/Williams 22/Kanter/Bruno

? Meh.

The signing was a no brainer,  but Schröder is not exactly putting the C’s over the top to compete with the Nets, Lakers, or Bucks for a championship. So having him for 1 year when you can’t re-sign him doesn’t make sense to me. He is just going to take away minutes from Smart, who allegedly wants to be more of PG and Pritchard who looks to have improved. Dennis has value and the C’s are fine at the PG position, so trade him to a team that might be willing to give up a late first or a couple of second round picks. 

Some have mentioned Smart’s extension will make him a better trade asset in a package for a player such as Beal, However, Is Washington or another team going to want Marcus when he’s being overpaid by $3-5M a year? I’m not sure that they do.

Wait, why can't we compete? You all are just dismissing the C's chances already? I don't think the Lakers - Bucks are significantly better than us. If the new coach gets us playing good basketball, we could easily be like the Suns last year, and they were up 2-0 in the finals. We have a good team! Two all-stars and finally - finally - a group of high-end role players around them. Schroder is a good player. Horford is a good player. Richardson is a good player. If Nesmith, PP, and Timelord make another jump, I fully expect us to be in the eastern conference finals. Yeah, Brooklyn will be tough but highly likely one or more of their big three will be injured or having a mental breakdown. Everyone is dismissing the Celtics - the media is talking about them just squeaking into the playoffs - and I think on paper this is a top 4 team in the East.

I think the C’s will be better than last year, but unless 2 of the Nets, Lakers, and Bucks star players get hurt, the C’s are not going to be beating them in a 7 game series.I could see Boston finishing anywhere from a 3 seed to a 6th in the East.

That's very optimistic - I have us finishing anywhere from 6th to 10th in the East next season.

Which teams other than the Bucks and Nets have a better starting 5 than Smart, Richardson, Brown, Tatum, Horford? I’m not seeing any.

Is Richardson starting? I think we'd need some more shooting from that spot. The only locks to me are Tatum, Brown, and Smart with the rest to be sorted out in training camp. But to answer your question, Miami: Lowry/Robinson/Butler/Bam, Atlanta: Trae/Bogdan/Collins/Capela are more well-rounded bases for starting lineups than ours. More versatility, more size, more shooting.

I certainly hope Richardson is starting. I don’t want Smart or Schröder playing off the ball. 

Lowry=Smart/Schröder, Robinson<Richardson/Smart Butler<Brown, Tucker<Tatum, Bam>Horford.

Trae>Smart/Schröder, Brogdon/Hunter=Richardson, Huerter<Brown, Collins<Tatum, Capela<Horford. Again the C’s have better starters. Young is 6’1 so he’s the smallest player on either team, SG, SF, PF positions are the same height and The hawks are bigger at Center.
So their starters are not bigger. Shooting is about a wash too, Capela can’t shoot at all, Hunter is a poor shooter and Trae shot 34% from 3pt last year. 

The C’s have the two best players when they match up with either team as well.

I really don't think Josh Richardson is the player you seem to believe he is.

Lol at thinking Jaylen is better than Jimmy Butler. He's an all around better player who can impose his will on a game even without scoring. Ditto for Smart and Lowry. The Heat have more playmaking, they have more consistent shooting around their best players - Duncan has shot over 40% from 3 on more than 8 attempts per game two seasons in a row and Lowry shot 40% last year as well. They're going to be able to play inside out off of Bam and Jimmy.

For the Hawks, again the playmaking is better than ours. Our best playmaker (maybe Smart) would be a 2ndry ballhandler on their team. And Trae may have shot 34% last year, but you wouldn't create a defensive scheme to leave him open, can you say the same about Smart or Richardson or Schroeder? He has the gravity to pull defenders out of the paint.

I like the way you think! TP!

With all due respect, it's laughable when people compare players based on raw box score stats. Butler can run the offense, whereas Brown plays mostly off the ball. This is a massive difference in my book. Butler is hands down a better shot creator in the half court. It's not even close. Rule of thumb is that most playoff games are won in the half court. Brown is better in the open court. He's also better suited to play second fiddle to a legit go-to scorer, simply because he's a reliable 3pt shooter. They are both terrific defenders. In a vacuum, gimme Butler over Brown all day long.

That said,
- Brown is considerably younger.
- He's on a team friendly contract for the next 3 seasons.
- Butler needs to be the go-to guy. He cannot play off the ball cause he's a below average 3pt shooter. Is he versatile enough as a go-to scorer to lead his team to a championship? Don't think he is, although he led the Heat to the Finals last season. He relies a bit too much on his slashing game. Opposing teams can wall the paint and dare him to shoot the 3. From a team building perspective, I'd rather have Brown over Butler. I reckon it's easier to build a championship roster with Brown.

Long story short, I'd put it like this:
Butler is a mediocre #1 option. He cannot be a #2 option, cause he cannot play off the ball. Brown is a terrific #2 option / elite #3 option. He cannot be the #1 option cause he cannot run the offense.

That's surprising because Butler's strength is playing as an on/off-ball hybrid because his off-ball movement is superb - he's one of the best cutters in the game. His passing off the catch can be quick to maintain or enhance openings created by teammates, and his ability to finish and draw fouls without ball-pounding also fits very nicely next to on-ball stars. I view Butler as a mediocre #1 but a good #2 and an excellent #3, while Brown is a poor #1, mediocre #2 and a good #3 from what he's shown so far (I do think that he has some untapped potential due to Brad's horrendous usage of him, but I am unsure on how good he is in a better situation).

[Jvalin]

Schroder for cheap is a no brainer.

However, it made me think Smart was on the move. The timing of the Smart extension doesn't make much sense to me.

I'm not sure what to make of our rotation now.

Smart 22/Schroder 26/Dunn

Brown 26/Pritchard 18/Smart 4/Langford

Richardson 24/Neismith 14/Brown 10

Tatum 36/Parker 12/GWill

Horford 26/Williams 22/Kanter/Bruno

? Meh.

The signing was a no brainer,  but Schröder is not exactly putting the C’s over the top to compete with the Nets, Lakers, or Bucks for a championship. So having him for 1 year when you can’t re-sign him doesn’t make sense to me. He is just going to take away minutes from Smart, who allegedly wants to be more of PG and Pritchard who looks to have improved. Dennis has value and the C’s are fine at the PG position, so trade him to a team that might be willing to give up a late first or a couple of second round picks. 

Some have mentioned Smart’s extension will make him a better trade asset in a package for a player such as Beal, However, Is Washington or another team going to want Marcus when he’s being overpaid by $3-5M a year? I’m not sure that they do.

Wait, why can't we compete? You all are just dismissing the C's chances already? I don't think the Lakers - Bucks are significantly better than us. If the new coach gets us playing good basketball, we could easily be like the Suns last year, and they were up 2-0 in the finals. We have a good team! Two all-stars and finally - finally - a group of high-end role players around them. Schroder is a good player. Horford is a good player. Richardson is a good player. If Nesmith, PP, and Timelord make another jump, I fully expect us to be in the eastern conference finals. Yeah, Brooklyn will be tough but highly likely one or more of their big three will be injured or having a mental breakdown. Everyone is dismissing the Celtics - the media is talking about them just squeaking into the playoffs - and I think on paper this is a top 4 team in the East.

I think the C’s will be better than last year, but unless 2 of the Nets, Lakers, and Bucks star players get hurt, the C’s are not going to be beating them in a 7 game series.I could see Boston finishing anywhere from a 3 seed to a 6th in the East.

That's very optimistic - I have us finishing anywhere from 6th to 10th in the East next season.

Which teams other than the Bucks and Nets have a better starting 5 than Smart, Richardson, Brown, Tatum, Horford? I’m not seeing any.

Is Richardson starting? I think we'd need some more shooting from that spot. The only locks to me are Tatum, Brown, and Smart with the rest to be sorted out in training camp. But to answer your question, Miami: Lowry/Robinson/Butler/Bam, Atlanta: Trae/Bogdan/Collins/Capela are more well-rounded bases for starting lineups than ours. More versatility, more size, more shooting.

I certainly hope Richardson is starting. I don’t want Smart or Schröder playing off the ball. 

Lowry=Smart/Schröder, Robinson<Richardson/Smart Butler<Brown, Tucker<Tatum, Bam>Horford.

Trae>Smart/Schröder, Brogdon/Hunter=Richardson, Huerter<Brown, Collins<Tatum, Capela<Horford. Again the C’s have better starters. Young is 6’1 so he’s the smallest player on either team, SG, SF, PF positions are the same height and The hawks are bigger at Center.
So their starters are not bigger. Shooting is about a wash too, Capela can’t shoot at all, Hunter is a poor shooter and Trae shot 34% from 3pt last year. 

The C’s have the two best players when they match up with either team as well.

I really don't think Josh Richardson is the player you seem to believe he is.

Lol at thinking Jaylen is better than Jimmy Butler. He's an all around better player who can impose his will on a game even without scoring. Ditto for Smart and Lowry. The Heat have more playmaking, they have more consistent shooting around their best players - Duncan has shot over 40% from 3 on more than 8 attempts per game two seasons in a row and Lowry shot 40% last year as well. They're going to be able to play inside out off of Bam and Jimmy.

For the Hawks, again the playmaking is better than ours. Our best playmaker (maybe Smart) would be a 2ndry ballhandler on their team. And Trae may have shot 34% last year, but you wouldn't create a defensive scheme to leave him open, can you say the same about Smart or Richardson or Schroeder? He has the gravity to pull defenders out of the paint.

I like the way you think! TP!

With all due respect, it's laughable when people compare players based on raw box score stats. Butler can run the offense, whereas Brown plays mostly off the ball. This is a massive difference in my book. Butler is hands down a better shot creator in the half court. It's not even close. Rule of thumb is that most playoff games are won in the half court. Brown is better in the open court. He's also better suited to play second fiddle to a legit go-to scorer, simply because he's a reliable 3pt shooter. They are both terrific defenders. In a vacuum, gimme Butler over Brown all day long.

That said,
- Brown is considerably younger.
- He's on a team friendly contract for the next 3 seasons.
- Butler needs to be the go-to guy. He cannot play off the ball cause he's a below average 3pt shooter. Is he versatile enough as a go-to scorer to lead his team to a championship? Don't think he is, although he led the Heat to the Finals last season. He relies a bit too much on his slashing game. Opposing teams can wall the paint and dare him to shoot the 3. From a team building perspective, I'd rather have Brown over Butler. I reckon it's easier to build a championship roster with Brown.

Long story short, I'd put it like this:
Butler is a mediocre #1 option. He cannot be a #2 option, cause he cannot play off the ball. Brown is a terrific #2 option / elite #3 option. He cannot be the #1 option cause he cannot run the offense.

That's surprising because Butler's strength is playing as an on/off-ball hybrid because his off-ball movement is superb - he's one of the best cutters in the game. His passing off the catch can be quick to maintain or enhance openings created by teammates, and his ability to finish and draw fouls without ball-pounding also fits very nicely next to on-ball stars. I view Butler as a mediocre #1 but a good #2 and an excellent #3, while Brown is a poor #1, mediocre #2 and a good #3 from what he's shown so far (I do think that he has some untapped potential due to Brad's horrendous usage of him, but I am unsure on how good he is in a better situation).

Sure, he's a decent cutter. Nothing special, cause he got a surprisingly short wingspan relative to his height. I mean, he scored 1.37 PPP when cutting to the basket last season which ranked in the 67.4th percentile. He also scored only 6.1% of his points via cutting. Can't rely on cuts to score consistently in the half court. They are far too random. It's also relatively easy to stop them. You are dependant on the opposing team's inability to read the cut. Imo, the important thing is that he's a below average 3pt shooter. This is the #1 reason I don't consider him an elite shot creator. Don't get me wrong, I like his game. All players have strengths and weaknesses.

Fair enough about Brown. Your description might be more accurate than mine. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you used to be super high on Brown. You were even suggesting he might be better than Tatum. What changed?

Agree to disagree on ''Brad's horrendous usage of Brown''. Imo, Brown has already surpassed his pre-draft expectations. He was super raw as a rookie. I would compare him to a player like Cam Reddish coming out of college. Hats off to Brad for putting him in a position to maximize his potential.

[TDurden]

Hey buds,

I think with the Schroder signing we finally replaced peak Terry Rozier.

With the resigning of Horford Brad has basically reconstructed the team that got to the ECF and lost in game 7 to Lebron's Cavs in the 2017-2018 season, and you know what?  That was the last Celtics team that had a legitimate chance to make the NBA Finals.

Schroder
Smart
Brown
Tatum
Horford

[Vermont Green]

Hey buds,

I think with the Schroder signing we finally replaced peak Terry Rozier.

With the resigning of Horford Brad has basically reconstructed the team that got to the ECF and lost in game 7 to Lebron's Cavs in the 2017-2018 season, and you know what?  That was the last Celtics team that had a legitimate chance to make the NBA Finals.

Schroder
Smart
Brown
Tatum
Horford

This is not fully reflective.  Our most used line up in 2017-18  included Baynes as C and Horford as PF.  Our second most used was Horford as C and Morris as PF.  We did not play 2 PG, 2 Wing, and 1 Big as a core line up.  The 1-big line up was used some but by far not the principal line up.

If anything, comparing to our success in 2017-18 proves that we need another true big or legit swing.  You can sort the 5-man line up stats all sorts of ways.  If you consider only line ups with 50 or more minutes, the best 1-big line up was the 6th best per 36 +/-, behind 5 different 2-big line ups, all with Horford plus either Baynes or Morris, and some combination of Irving, Smart, Rozier, Tatum, and Brown.

Statistically, it is very clear that the 2017-18 team was at its best with Horford-Baynes or Horford-Morris on the floor together (that was the last season that Baynes was actually decent).

[Somebody]

Schroder for cheap is a no brainer.

However, it made me think Smart was on the move. The timing of the Smart extension doesn't make much sense to me.

I'm not sure what to make of our rotation now.

Smart 22/Schroder 26/Dunn

Brown 26/Pritchard 18/Smart 4/Langford

Richardson 24/Neismith 14/Brown 10

Tatum 36/Parker 12/GWill

Horford 26/Williams 22/Kanter/Bruno

? Meh.

The signing was a no brainer,  but Schröder is not exactly putting the C’s over the top to compete with the Nets, Lakers, or Bucks for a championship. So having him for 1 year when you can’t re-sign him doesn’t make sense to me. He is just going to take away minutes from Smart, who allegedly wants to be more of PG and Pritchard who looks to have improved. Dennis has value and the C’s are fine at the PG position, so trade him to a team that might be willing to give up a late first or a couple of second round picks. 

Some have mentioned Smart’s extension will make him a better trade asset in a package for a player such as Beal, However, Is Washington or another team going to want Marcus when he’s being overpaid by $3-5M a year? I’m not sure that they do.

Wait, why can't we compete? You all are just dismissing the C's chances already? I don't think the Lakers - Bucks are significantly better than us. If the new coach gets us playing good basketball, we could easily be like the Suns last year, and they were up 2-0 in the finals. We have a good team! Two all-stars and finally - finally - a group of high-end role players around them. Schroder is a good player. Horford is a good player. Richardson is a good player. If Nesmith, PP, and Timelord make another jump, I fully expect us to be in the eastern conference finals. Yeah, Brooklyn will be tough but highly likely one or more of their big three will be injured or having a mental breakdown. Everyone is dismissing the Celtics - the media is talking about them just squeaking into the playoffs - and I think on paper this is a top 4 team in the East.

I think the C’s will be better than last year, but unless 2 of the Nets, Lakers, and Bucks star players get hurt, the C’s are not going to be beating them in a 7 game series.I could see Boston finishing anywhere from a 3 seed to a 6th in the East.

That's very optimistic - I have us finishing anywhere from 6th to 10th in the East next season.

Which teams other than the Bucks and Nets have a better starting 5 than Smart, Richardson, Brown, Tatum, Horford? I’m not seeing any.

Is Richardson starting? I think we'd need some more shooting from that spot. The only locks to me are Tatum, Brown, and Smart with the rest to be sorted out in training camp. But to answer your question, Miami: Lowry/Robinson/Butler/Bam, Atlanta: Trae/Bogdan/Collins/Capela are more well-rounded bases for starting lineups than ours. More versatility, more size, more shooting.

I certainly hope Richardson is starting. I don’t want Smart or Schröder playing off the ball. 

Lowry=Smart/Schröder, Robinson<Richardson/Smart Butler<Brown, Tucker<Tatum, Bam>Horford.

Trae>Smart/Schröder, Brogdon/Hunter=Richardson, Huerter<Brown, Collins<Tatum, Capela<Horford. Again the C’s have better starters. Young is 6’1 so he’s the smallest player on either team, SG, SF, PF positions are the same height and The hawks are bigger at Center.
So their starters are not bigger. Shooting is about a wash too, Capela can’t shoot at all, Hunter is a poor shooter and Trae shot 34% from 3pt last year. 

The C’s have the two best players when they match up with either team as well.

I really don't think Josh Richardson is the player you seem to believe he is.

Lol at thinking Jaylen is better than Jimmy Butler. He's an all around better player who can impose his will on a game even without scoring. Ditto for Smart and Lowry. The Heat have more playmaking, they have more consistent shooting around their best players - Duncan has shot over 40% from 3 on more than 8 attempts per game two seasons in a row and Lowry shot 40% last year as well. They're going to be able to play inside out off of Bam and Jimmy.

For the Hawks, again the playmaking is better than ours. Our best playmaker (maybe Smart) would be a 2ndry ballhandler on their team. And Trae may have shot 34% last year, but you wouldn't create a defensive scheme to leave him open, can you say the same about Smart or Richardson or Schroeder? He has the gravity to pull defenders out of the paint.

I like the way you think! TP!

With all due respect, it's laughable when people compare players based on raw box score stats. Butler can run the offense, whereas Brown plays mostly off the ball. This is a massive difference in my book. Butler is hands down a better shot creator in the half court. It's not even close. Rule of thumb is that most playoff games are won in the half court. Brown is better in the open court. He's also better suited to play second fiddle to a legit go-to scorer, simply because he's a reliable 3pt shooter. They are both terrific defenders. In a vacuum, gimme Butler over Brown all day long.

That said,
- Brown is considerably younger.
- He's on a team friendly contract for the next 3 seasons.
- Butler needs to be the go-to guy. He cannot play off the ball cause he's a below average 3pt shooter. Is he versatile enough as a go-to scorer to lead his team to a championship? Don't think he is, although he led the Heat to the Finals last season. He relies a bit too much on his slashing game. Opposing teams can wall the paint and dare him to shoot the 3. From a team building perspective, I'd rather have Brown over Butler. I reckon it's easier to build a championship roster with Brown.

Long story short, I'd put it like this:
Butler is a mediocre #1 option. He cannot be a #2 option, cause he cannot play off the ball. Brown is a terrific #2 option / elite #3 option. He cannot be the #1 option cause he cannot run the offense.

That's surprising because Butler's strength is playing as an on/off-ball hybrid because his off-ball movement is superb - he's one of the best cutters in the game. His passing off the catch can be quick to maintain or enhance openings created by teammates, and his ability to finish and draw fouls without ball-pounding also fits very nicely next to on-ball stars. I view Butler as a mediocre #1 but a good #2 and an excellent #3, while Brown is a poor #1, mediocre #2 and a good #3 from what he's shown so far (I do think that he has some untapped potential due to Brad's horrendous usage of him, but I am unsure on how good he is in a better situation).

Sure, he's a decent cutter. Nothing special, cause he got a surprisingly short wingspan relative to his height. I mean, he scored 1.37 PPP when cutting to the basket last season which ranked in the 67.4th percentile. He also scored only 6.1% of his points via cutting. Can't rely on cuts to score consistently in the half court. They are far too random. It's also relatively easy to stop them. You are dependant on the opposing team's inability to read the cut. Imo, the important thing is that he's a below average 3pt shooter. This is the #1 reason I don't consider him an elite shot creator. Don't get me wrong, I like his game. All players have strengths and weaknesses.

Fair enough about Brown. Your description might be more accurate than mine. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you used to be super high on Brown. You were even suggesting he might be better than Tatum. What changed?

Agree to disagree on ''Brad's horrendous usage of Brown''. Imo, Brown has already surpassed his pre-draft expectations. He was super raw as a rookie. I would compare him to a player like Cam Reddish coming out of college. Hats off to Brad for putting him in a position to maximize his potential.

I mean he's been cutting with very little playmaking talent who can find him this year - Dragic hasn't looked the same after his injury in the bubble and the Heat's other guards are mediocre passers at best, there's only so much that Bam can do. Data from previous seasons have him among the elite: he posted a PPP of 1.55, 1.68 and 1.60 from 2017 to 2020. He also had low cutting rates because he was always the best halfcourt player on his teams - there's only so much time you can have off the ball when your best offensive players in the halfcourt are a young Towns, a pre-2021 Embiid and an old Goran Dragic. And even if a player doesn't have a three point shot, it's really difficult to stop a him from cutting and weaving off the ball when you have to guard other capable on-ball threats as well (our very own Havlicek had an active off-ball game before the implementation of the three point line next to other capable on-ball players who can score and pass that he used to great effect).

I'm still super high on Brown and have a similar opinion of him, I just can't definitively say that he's what I think he is because his coach has never let him play in an ideal role.

A player surpassing his pre-draft expectations says more about himself than the coach (other than the coach giving him playing time to actually make an impact on the court). I've written countless posts detailing how Stevens has grossly underutilised him as a player and don't really feel like rehashing it for the millionth time here, so I'll just conclude this post here

[Sophomore]

Schroder for cheap is a no brainer.

However, it made me think Smart was on the move. The timing of the Smart extension doesn't make much sense to me.

I'm not sure what to make of our rotation now.

Smart 22/Schroder 26/Dunn

Brown 26/Pritchard 18/Smart 4/Langford

Richardson 24/Neismith 14/Brown 10

Tatum 36/Parker 12/GWill

Horford 26/Williams 22/Kanter/Bruno

? Meh.

The signing was a no brainer,  but Schröder is not exactly putting the C’s over the top to compete with the Nets, Lakers, or Bucks for a championship. So having him for 1 year when you can’t re-sign him doesn’t make sense to me. He is just going to take away minutes from Smart, who allegedly wants to be more of PG and Pritchard who looks to have improved. Dennis has value and the C’s are fine at the PG position, so trade him to a team that might be willing to give up a late first or a couple of second round picks. 

Some have mentioned Smart’s extension will make him a better trade asset in a package for a player such as Beal, However, Is Washington or another team going to want Marcus when he’s being overpaid by $3-5M a year? I’m not sure that they do.

Wait, why can't we compete? You all are just dismissing the C's chances already? I don't think the Lakers - Bucks are significantly better than us. If the new coach gets us playing good basketball, we could easily be like the Suns last year, and they were up 2-0 in the finals. We have a good team! Two all-stars and finally - finally - a group of high-end role players around them. Schroder is a good player. Horford is a good player. Richardson is a good player. If Nesmith, PP, and Timelord make another jump, I fully expect us to be in the eastern conference finals. Yeah, Brooklyn will be tough but highly likely one or more of their big three will be injured or having a mental breakdown. Everyone is dismissing the Celtics - the media is talking about them just squeaking into the playoffs - and I think on paper this is a top 4 team in the East.

I think the C’s will be better than last year, but unless 2 of the Nets, Lakers, and Bucks star players get hurt, the C’s are not going to be beating them in a 7 game series.I could see Boston finishing anywhere from a 3 seed to a 6th in the East.

That's very optimistic - I have us finishing anywhere from 6th to 10th in the East next season.

Which teams other than the Bucks and Nets have a better starting 5 than Smart, Richardson, Brown, Tatum, Horford? I’m not seeing any.

Is Richardson starting? I think we'd need some more shooting from that spot. The only locks to me are Tatum, Brown, and Smart with the rest to be sorted out in training camp. But to answer your question, Miami: Lowry/Robinson/Butler/Bam, Atlanta: Trae/Bogdan/Collins/Capela are more well-rounded bases for starting lineups than ours. More versatility, more size, more shooting.

I certainly hope Richardson is starting. I don’t want Smart or Schröder playing off the ball. 

Lowry=Smart/Schröder, Robinson<Richardson/Smart Butler<Brown, Tucker<Tatum, Bam>Horford.

Trae>Smart/Schröder, Brogdon/Hunter=Richardson, Huerter<Brown, Collins<Tatum, Capela<Horford. Again the C’s have better starters. Young is 6’1 so he’s the smallest player on either team, SG, SF, PF positions are the same height and The hawks are bigger at Center.
So their starters are not bigger. Shooting is about a wash too, Capela can’t shoot at all, Hunter is a poor shooter and Trae shot 34% from 3pt last year. 

The C’s have the two best players when they match up with either team as well.

I really don't think Josh Richardson is the player you seem to believe he is.

Lol at thinking Jaylen is better than Jimmy Butler. He's an all around better player who can impose his will on a game even without scoring. Ditto for Smart and Lowry. The Heat have more playmaking, they have more consistent shooting around their best players - Duncan has shot over 40% from 3 on more than 8 attempts per game two seasons in a row and Lowry shot 40% last year as well. They're going to be able to play inside out off of Bam and Jimmy.

For the Hawks, again the playmaking is better than ours. Our best playmaker (maybe Smart) would be a 2ndry ballhandler on their team. And Trae may have shot 34% last year, but you wouldn't create a defensive scheme to leave him open, can you say the same about Smart or Richardson or Schroeder? He has the gravity to pull defenders out of the paint.

I like the way you think! TP!

With all due respect, it's laughable when people compare players based on raw box score stats. Butler can run the offense, whereas Brown plays mostly off the ball. This is a massive difference in my book. Butler is hands down a better shot creator in the half court. It's not even close. Rule of thumb is that most playoff games are won in the half court. Brown is better in the open court. He's also better suited to play second fiddle to a legit go-to scorer, simply because he's a reliable 3pt shooter. They are both terrific defenders. In a vacuum, gimme Butler over Brown all day long.

That said,
- Brown is considerably younger.
- He's on a team friendly contract for the next 3 seasons.
- Butler needs to be the go-to guy. He cannot play off the ball cause he's a below average 3pt shooter. Is he versatile enough as a go-to scorer to lead his team to a championship? Don't think he is, although he led the Heat to the Finals last season. He relies a bit too much on his slashing game. Opposing teams can wall the paint and dare him to shoot the 3. From a team building perspective, I'd rather have Brown over Butler. I reckon it's easier to build a championship roster with Brown.

Long story short, I'd put it like this:
Butler is a mediocre #1 option. He cannot be a #2 option, cause he cannot play off the ball. Brown is a terrific #2 option / elite #3 option. He cannot be the #1 option cause he cannot run the offense.

The shot creation comparison between Brown and Butler is apt/fair, as long as we remember the age difference. I don't think we have seen Jaylen's ceiling yet. He's grown a lot the past couple years, and I don't think he's done. I also think that if peak Jaylen from the start of last season becomes more like the norm, it's hard to call him a number 2 option. He made a *lot* of his own shots - high volume, high percentage. Maybe then he'd be a 1A - elite scorer with limited distribution skills.

[Vermont Green]

How did a thread about Schroder become a debate over Jaylen Brown and Jimmy Butler.

Butler's break out season came in 2014-15 when he was 25 (he averaged over 20 pts for the first time, up from 13 pts the prior year).  Brown averaged about the same in 2019-20 when he was 23.  Jimmy Butler has more accomplishments right now but I am not sure he will be a better player over the next say 3 seasons.

Butler has shown the ability to take the ball at crunch time and make the big shot.  Just kind of will it to happen.  I am not sure Brown can match that just yet.  Butler also gets a lot more assists (7.1 vs. 3.4) and gets to the line more (8.0 vs. 4.3 FTA).  These are key indicators of a savvy vet doing what is needed to help the team win. 

Brown could learn a lot from Jimmy Butler.  I am not super high on individual assists stats, team assists are more important than individual assists, but the stat is still an indicator.  Drawing fouls though, that can be big.  Easy points, get the other team over the limit, all very helpful.  That is a big part of what is making Butler better right now or up to this point.