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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: droopdog7 on November 19, 2018, 10:05:53 PM

Title: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: droopdog7 on November 19, 2018, 10:05:53 PM
So the honeymoon period is seriously over.  The team looks NOTHING like a contender, and you really have to wonder whether it will as currently constructed.  Bringing one of the wings off the bench is a start but man do we need some role players that don’t need the ball to be successful.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: ozgod on November 19, 2018, 10:15:21 PM
I don't think you can be in serious trouble with four fifths of the season to go. Clearly they have plenty to work on. We're far from the finished product, we have a number of issues to resolve. I’m not that upset about tonight's game, we fell apart at the end and didn't close it out but we did some good things, we drove to the hoop more than I've seen any time this year. And Kemba had to score 43. Probably what Toronto felt when Kyrie scored 43 and stole the game from them.

After the first 10 games seeing how disjointed they were I concluded that it’s going to take months. We’re not going to be a no.1 seed but we will make the playoffs and this team looks like it needs the playoffs to motivate them. They got plenty to fix, including learning how to shoot again, and figuring out how to use Gordon when he's struggling with his shot and his role, but I think serious trouble might be an overreaction. If the playoffs were next month I would agree with you though, thankfully they're not till April  ;D

The biggest risk right now is team morale. This is Brad's most important task, to make sure the team doesn't start fracturing and finger pointing. If that happens then we will be in serious trouble.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: cman88 on November 19, 2018, 10:18:52 PM
yes and no....I mean, we are 17games into the season. a decent sample size but not necessarily something where we can't rebound and become a contender.

There were glimpses tonight of good basketball....but Kemba went super-god mode in the 4th and Brad decided to bench Kyrie when he was hot and didn't put him back in until the lead was lost.

And the decision to leave Hayward in instead of Brown in the 4th was questionable. Especially when Hayward is allergic to the rim right now and Brown was having a pretty solid game.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: Somebody on November 19, 2018, 10:25:11 PM
We will be if Brad continues having a hard on for Hayward and small ball.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: keevsnick on November 19, 2018, 10:25:33 PM
So the honeymoon period is seriously over.  The team looks NOTHING like a contender, and you really have to wonder whether it will as currently constructed.  Bringing one of the wings off the bench is a start but man do we need some role players that don’t need the ball to be successful.

When you are 1st in defense (but tend to get scored o by good offenses), and bottom five in offense you are by definition going to be an around 500 team. We are what our record says we are.


That said I've seen you make this point several times, and I understand where you are coming from. But lets say we could exchange some of our guys like Brown, Smart, Rozier, Morris or the so called "role players" for guys who better fit a role. The problem is that as uneven as we've been, we don't have the top end talent to compete with a GS or even Toronto if we go that direction. Al has taken half step back. Kyrie is still great but not an MVP level guy. Tatum is good, but he has serious flaws in his game he  has to work on and isn't gonna be the foundational level guy this year (tho long term he could be). Hayward has sucked. Swapping say out pieces on the peripheries might make us marginaly better, but to be honest as long as our "stars" are playing poorly, we aint winning it all. That's part of the reason i'd hang onto Brown in particular. He at least has some potential (A Davis trade is different, I would trade brown for him. Or Tatum for that matter. Tho probbly not both).


An underated problem with this team is that two of our max guys are underwhelming this year. Al is still solid, but seems like he's about 5-10% worse than last year. Not suprising at his age. nd Hayward is uneven, ttho mostly bad. Thats 60 million right there giving you abaout 22 points a game.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on November 19, 2018, 10:25:44 PM
No. It's just that we're not steamrolling the league just yet.

Let's revisit this thread by end of Feb - early Mar if we still look like we do now.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: CF033 on November 19, 2018, 10:34:12 PM
You can't say it's too early in the season to form an opinion any more.

But I wouldn't say they are dead in the water yet. Hayward still has a really long way to go, right now he's afraid to shoot the ball.

Brad making bad decisions down the stretch. We have a ton to fix still.

If we're still flirting with a .500 record 30 games in I'd say any hopes of making the finals are done IMO (mostly because I think we'll need home court advantage to make it through the playoffs and we'll most likely be too far behind at that point).

As it stands now I really don't know how to rank us, I feel like any team can beat us on any given night at this point. I'd say we still have a chance but most likely prepping our guys for a serious run next year depending on how much of our team is still here.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: action781 on November 19, 2018, 10:42:26 PM
Serious overreaction.

Miami Heat started the season 9-8 in 2010 and went to the finals.
Cavs started last season 5-7 and went to the finals.
LA Lakers were 2-6 just a couple weeks ago.

Everybody loves to overreact in sports.  We're re-integrating new players back in again.  Give them some time.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: Bobshot on November 19, 2018, 10:44:12 PM
What's disquieting to me is that while a lot of fans were saying Hayward was the square plug in the round hole, the local sports media refused to criticize Stevens for starting him.

It seemed ridiculous to me to start Hayward in back to back games after an OT game when he played 39 mins. Leonard is still not playing back to back games in Toronto.

Hayward is not back yet to the $30 million dollar man, and further, Stevens hasn't created a proper role for him which allows their young studs to develop further.

Stevens has shown brilliance in game managing in the past, and the Celtics had a great run down to the stretch last season and in the playoffs, only to be denied in that infamous game 7 at home, when their 3P dominated game killed them. But so far this year, he hasn't figured it out. And over reliance on the 3 is haunting them. They need easier baskets.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: CF033 on November 19, 2018, 10:45:48 PM
Serious overreaction.

Miami Heat started the season 9-8 in 2010 and went to the finals.
Cavs started last season 5-7 and went to the finals.
LA Lakers were 2-6 just a couple weeks ago.

Everybody loves to overreact in sports.  We're re-integrating new players back in again.  Give them some time.

One problem though, we don't have Lebron James.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: Chef Parish on November 19, 2018, 10:54:03 PM
2016–17 Golden State Warriors started 0-1 for the reg season.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: liam on November 19, 2018, 11:33:03 PM
Lets listen to Crowder!  https://www.yahoo.com/sports/whats-causing-celtics-struggles-jae-165227372.html
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: hpantazo on November 19, 2018, 11:34:43 PM
Lets listen to Crowder!  https://www.yahoo.com/sports/whats-causing-celtics-struggles-jae-165227372.html

He's right
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: Kuberski33 on November 20, 2018, 12:08:59 AM
They're not in what I'd call serious trouble yet but Stevens is probably doubting himself for the first time in his coaching career.  He's put his faith in Hayward (understandably) but Hayward has not been able to deliver yet. But it's not just that.  Certain players aren't performing consistently.

If I had to guess, Danny's going to make a move to get some better shooting here.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: ozgod on November 20, 2018, 12:28:58 AM


As it stands now I really don't know how to rank us, I feel like any team can beat us on any given night at this point. I'd say we still have a chance but most likely prepping our guys for a serious run next year depending on how much of our team is still here.

I feel like we can beat any team on a given night but any team can also beat us on a given night  :-\
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: rondofan1255 on November 20, 2018, 12:39:10 AM
serious trouble? absolutely not. it's an 82 game season. this question was asked last season during the slumps following the 16-game (?) winning streak

 :P
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: liam on November 20, 2018, 12:44:09 AM
Lets listen to Crowder!  https://www.yahoo.com/sports/whats-causing-celtics-struggles-jae-165227372.html

He's right

He is right. It's a very rational take.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: liam on November 20, 2018, 12:51:10 AM
If The Celtics shot 30 % from 3 last night they would've won that game.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: PhoSita on November 20, 2018, 02:07:31 AM
They're among the best defenses in the league, if not the best. That'll get you to 45-50 wins.  So, no.

That said, the offense is bad and it's not entirely clear how it's going to become better than just OK.  That's a big problem for the team's title aspirations.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: JSD on November 20, 2018, 04:34:58 AM
Celtics will win the next 13 straight games.


Might even beat the Bucks to make it 14. Then who knows? This could be a 20+ game winning streak. Buckle up, boys.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: gouki88 on November 20, 2018, 04:46:56 AM
Celtics will win the next 13 straight games.


Might even beat the Bucks to make it 14. Then who knows? This could be a 20+ game winning streak. Buckle up, boys.
Boy I hope you're wrong
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: GreenEnvy on November 20, 2018, 04:49:21 AM
I think this is becoming a confidence issue. They are not taking the shots they could and should take.

Instead they try to force it to others which eventually leads to a tougher shot. I don’t know if they (basically all of them) haven’t been shooting well so don’t want to shoot, or if they want to promote team-ball and keep the rock moving. Either way, they need to take the open shots. They are all capable shooters.

Baynes is the only guy who keeps hoisting them no matter what, and I like the attitude. He can brick 4 straight and if he gets the ball and he’s wide open, he’s putting it up again. Then you see the others (sans Kyrie and Morris), they get ball, side step away from close out, weak drive and kick, rinse and repeat.

It’s tough because there are so many times when this team looks like they are about to rattle off a 17-4 run or something and wind up either blowing their lead or getting into too deep a hole.

We knew it may take awhile for everyone to play together and our two all-stars to shake the rust (Kyrie did overnight, Gordon looking passive and missing shots he should be making), but this is dragging on a little too long now.

I know the schedule eases now, so we may string together some wins, but still. We need to start scoring at will. We need to make our open shots, that will be the start of it.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: GreenEnvy on November 20, 2018, 04:51:47 AM
Celtics will win the next 13 straight games.


Might even beat the Bucks to make it 14. Then who knows? This could be a 20+ game winning streak. Buckle up, boys.
Boy I hope you're wrong

Why do you hope he’s wrong about a 13+ game winning streak?
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: Green-18 on November 20, 2018, 08:03:08 AM
They definitely aren't in serious trouble yet.  That being said, I think it's time for us to acknowledge a trend that dates back to the beginning of last season.  This incarnation of the Celtics, with or without Hayward, has featured a mediocre offense at best.  They ranked near the bottom of the league in efficiency during the 16 game winning streak.  Improvements were made throughout last season but they never found consistency.  Defense and clutch shot making were the defining characteristics of last years group.

The rule changes have tipped the scales in favor of offense, yet the Celtics haven't improved. 
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: hodgy03038 on November 20, 2018, 08:04:32 AM
Yes we are in trouble.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: gouki88 on November 20, 2018, 08:19:37 AM
Celtics will win the next 13 straight games.


Might even beat the Bucks to make it 14. Then who knows? This could be a 20+ game winning streak. Buckle up, boys.
Boy I hope you're wrong

Why do you hope he’s wrong about a 13+ game winning streak?
Because the winning streak ended... I'm insatiable after seeing Sacramento, LAC and Memphis do so well so far, lol.

This early season has been rough
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: jbpats on November 20, 2018, 08:45:14 AM
I think Stevens needs to do a better job, but no I don't think we are in trouble.

I think moving a starter to the bench was the right move, although I think it should have been Brown and started Smart not Baynes. That said Hayward looks horrible as well.
I feel like benching Hayward just shattered his confidence even more and I'm not sure he'll ever be the player he once was. I hope I'm wrong. I also think Stevens knew benching Hayward would cause the least amount of backlash and Hayward would be more accepting/understanding of it.

Hayward needs confidence right now and benching him i'm sure is just making him think about it even more.

Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: bopna on November 20, 2018, 09:09:25 AM
Y    E    S   


three max players that have two of them playing like poop.

A 2nd yr player is our our second best player.

a defensive stalward that has no offensive game to speak of.

A SG who shot efficiently last yr who has magically lost his touch but still thinks he is Klay Thompson even though he is a lot closer to Jeff Green.

Oh and the moment you ask your 31 million player to be an Evan Turner clone...well that actuallly says what this topic is all about.....YES Boston, we have a problem.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: playdream on November 20, 2018, 09:14:25 AM
Not worried at all
We just need to wake up and make our makable shots
People are panicking too easily
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on November 20, 2018, 09:27:01 AM
My Thoughts:

1. I knew exactly what was gonna happen on the play when Kemba nailed that last three. We've seen that same play on us a thousand times. CBS plays the percentage and tells Horford not to let him drive, but to contest the three.

2. Connected to the point above, it is not fun watching this team defend during the regular season. CBS is committed to his defensive system, which means when an opposing guard gets into rhythm, he refuses to send help. He puts Brown and Smart on an island. He refuses to allow the rest of the opposing team to get involved in the game. His strategy is simple: if they win with hero ball against Smart, they deserve to win. It's infuriating and ungratifying to watch. It's not a great regular season tactic, but it is a great playoff series tactic. Players can't be heroes for an entire series -- at least not enough to win games. If the opposing team is not involved, then the odds are in your favor.

3. The offense looked better last night. It trended up in the Raptors game also.

4. Jaylen Brown is starting to look like a better version of Andrew Wiggins. I realize his points are not as high, but his usage is also way lower than Wiggins has been throughout his career. He is a tantalizing prospect with uber-defensive potential, but I worry about his determination, or will, to stop opposing offensive players. I wish he would take a few more blocking fouls trying to stop guys getting to the basket. I STILL OWN OODLES OF JAYLEN BROWN STOCK. I'M NOT SELLING YET.

5. Kyrie Irving is really good at basketball. He is still scoring at an amazing level, but he is now figuring out how to distribute and get other guys involved. He is also playing high level defense. I kinda' wanted him to take Kemba last night. I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED IF THESE EARLY SEASON STRUGGLES FOR THE CELTICS WERE THE REFINING FIRE THAT VAULTED KYRIE TO THE NEXT LEVEL AS A PLAYER.

6. The refs missed a pretty obvious foul on a late three pointer by Kyrie. The Hornets got free throws on an off-ball touch foul on the other side of the court. That was pretty frustrating to watch, but again, seems par for the course this year. That was a 5 point swing that we never came back from.

7. It seems like every time we are about to go on a long run, we make one simple mistake that stops it. Last night, those mistakes were Baynes fouls, Theis overplaying on defense and leaving the drive open, missed open threes, not catching a pass, etc. In some ways, I think this team is very close.

8. Horford and Theis look really smart, but really old. I agree with other posters that Robert Williams may provide some energy and quickness. Hopefully, he can figure out good positioning quickly.

9. Marcus Morris is regressing to the mean. I wish CBS played Brown above him more. I also wish Morris' approach rubbed off on Brown a little.

10. The Cs have not been fun to watch so far. It seems like every game we are about to go on a run and then make some dumb mistakes. Those moments always feel like holding in a sneeze. It seems like every other game, an opposing player is going off against us. We rarely win a game by 30. Every game is a struggle.

11. Finally, it's not how you play at the beginning of the season, but at the end of the season. I'm still hopeful that we pick up momentum in late February and carry it through the playoffs. I'd take struggles in October-December if it meant playing well in April-June.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on November 20, 2018, 09:27:27 AM
No, they have a lot of new pieces to incorporate, Hayward's recovery is well within expectation, young guys are being forced to adjust to lesser roles after a great playoff run, and they're hungover from said run.  These games are also relatively meaningless.  I'd bet playdream's house that they'll be in the Finals.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: rollie mass on November 20, 2018, 09:36:17 AM
Hayward is losing us games with his poor shooting missing layups and doesn't dare finish his baseline or in the paint cuts.He just isn't back yet..
It is a normal part of recovering but i feel everybody is being effected .Whats Hayward costing in points per game 5-10.The guy just isn't 100% in his head ,in his lift and in his shooting.-
Maybe everybody has given themselves a free pass while Hayward recovers.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: jbpats on November 20, 2018, 09:40:04 AM
For what its worth..

Mike Gorman predicted this team to be 9-7 to start the season on Toucher and Rich before the first game. I remember laughing to myself thinking this guy has finally lost it working alongside Tommy for so long.

He said Stevens has a lot to figure out, there is a lot of unknown, players who are coming back from injury and a lot of key guys who simply never played with one another. He said it's going to take some time to iron out.

He also predicted us coming out of the East.

In Gorman I trust. The Celtics will be fine.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: Vox_Populi on November 20, 2018, 09:48:52 AM
Yes. The Kings are as incompetent at losing as we are at winning. It's time to take matters into our own hands. We will draft Zion or Barrett ourselves.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: slamtheking on November 20, 2018, 10:00:25 AM
For what its worth..

Mike Gorman predicted this team to be 9-7 to start the season on Toucher and Rich before the first game. I remember laughing to myself thinking this guy has finally lost it working alongside Tommy for so long.

He said Stevens has a lot to figure out, there is a lot of unknown, players who are coming back from injury and a lot of key guys who simply never played with one another. He said it's going to take some time to iron out.

He also predicted us coming out of the East.

In Gorman I trust. The Celtics will be fine.
TP for finding that nugget of optimism.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on November 20, 2018, 11:18:29 AM
For what its worth..

Mike Gorman predicted this team to be 9-7 to start the season on Toucher and Rich before the first game. I remember laughing to myself thinking this guy has finally lost it working alongside Tommy for so long.

He said Stevens has a lot to figure out, there is a lot of unknown, players who are coming back from injury and a lot of key guys who simply never played with one another. He said it's going to take some time to iron out.

He also predicted us coming out of the East.

In Gorman I trust. The Celtics will be fine.


well if he is all that smart lets make him GM and coach
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: droopdog7 on November 20, 2018, 12:41:26 PM
For what its worth..

Mike Gorman predicted this team to be 9-7 to start the season on Toucher and Rich before the first game. I remember laughing to myself thinking this guy has finally lost it working alongside Tommy for so long.

He said Stevens has a lot to figure out, there is a lot of unknown, players who are coming back from injury and a lot of key guys who simply never played with one another. He said it's going to take some time to iron out.

He also predicted us coming out of the East.

In Gorman I trust. The Celtics will be fine.
I guess I should take a step back because I predicted they would go 8-7.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: apc on November 20, 2018, 01:27:37 PM
Even the we are playing right now we beat the Bucks, Sixers and Raps, so even if we are the eight seed in the off-season i think we have a decent chance
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: LilRip on November 20, 2018, 01:43:12 PM
Not gonna lie, it’s not looking good. Outside of Chicago, the wins have felt 50 50 and there are some losses that are just embarrassing. It still looks like the team is playing entitled or playing without force  and I think a lot of this falls on CBS. Kyrie has risen to the top as our primary scorer but the other 4 guys need to figure it out.

Hubie brown quoted an interesting stat the other game. We have 6 guys averaging over 10 shots a hame. That’s not normal. And while some may say “hey that means they’re distributing the ball real well!” I see it as a lack of definition in players roles. Even the warriors, as stacked as they are, really only have 3 main scorers. KD and Steph are their go to’s and Klay is easily the 3rd banana (though they’re not afraid to feed him if he gets hot) while Draymond Green really takes a back seat, scoring wise. I think this team needs to figure out its pecking order and go from there.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: Birdman on November 20, 2018, 01:47:32 PM
I alway said since watching the NBA, that u can really tell what a team will be after Christmas..so hopefully they can turn it around by then..if not then its talking and waiting for summer of 2019
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: MikeB12 on November 20, 2018, 03:45:55 PM
As I posted early on, last years team went 16-2 and I predicted a 11-7 OR WORSE start after the first several games.   Some on this board said it was way to early to wonder how the Celtics would do this year...

Well, the Celtics are playing WORSE than I predicted for the first 18 games...actually only 17 so far at 9-8.

Yes there are a lot of games left but not only is there concern about the Celtics in my mind and a lot of others but what about Toronto, Philly, Milwaukee, Indiana ?   Those teams are playing really well early which may not bode well for the Celtics.

Still early, but something is definitely wrong with the C's so far.  Brown is shooting worse than Smart, which is definitely not a good thing.  He is really out of whack.  Hayward hopefully will improve as time goes on.

MikeB  (Celtics fan since the '60s)
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: JSD on November 21, 2018, 06:03:13 PM
Celtics will win the next 13 straight games.


Might even beat the Bucks to make it 14. Then who knows? This could be a 20+ game winning streak. Buckle up, boys.

Begins tonight.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: Big333223 on November 21, 2018, 06:32:28 PM
For what its worth..

Mike Gorman predicted this team to be 9-7 to start the season on Toucher and Rich before the first game. I remember laughing to myself thinking this guy has finally lost it working alongside Tommy for so long.

He said Stevens has a lot to figure out, there is a lot of unknown, players who are coming back from injury and a lot of key guys who simply never played with one another. He said it's going to take some time to iron out.

He also predicted us coming out of the East.

In Gorman I trust. The Celtics will be fine.

Gorman knows best.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: Emmette Bryant on December 01, 2018, 06:39:34 PM
https://www.latimes.com/sports/nba/la-sp-nba-woike-20181201-story.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+latimes%2Fsports%2Fbaseball%2Fmlb+%28L.A.+Times+-+Baseball+News%29&src=rss
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: ozgod on December 01, 2018, 06:47:41 PM
For what its worth..

Mike Gorman predicted this team to be 9-7 to start the season on Toucher and Rich before the first game. I remember laughing to myself thinking this guy has finally lost it working alongside Tommy for so long.

He said Stevens has a lot to figure out, there is a lot of unknown, players who are coming back from injury and a lot of key guys who simply never played with one another. He said it's going to take some time to iron out.

He also predicted us coming out of the East.

In Gorman I trust. The Celtics will be fine.

Gorman knows best.

Gorman's been around long enough to know that it's not like NBA2K - just because you collect the best players into a team they won't automatically know how to play well with each other until they've had some time to gel. It's no surprise that the players whose roles have changed the most - Hayward, Brown, Rozier - are the ones who have taken so long to adjust. But they're getting there.
Title: Re: Is this team in serious trouble?
Post by: hpantazo on December 01, 2018, 07:03:16 PM
https://www.latimes.com/sports/nba/la-sp-nba-woike-20181201-story.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+latimes%2Fsports%2Fbaseball%2Fmlb+%28L.A.+Times+-+Baseball+News%29&src=rss

Eh...defense still wins in the playoffs, as long as you have a guy or two who can hit a shot once in a while when the defensive pressure rises, so that you don't end up the way the Celtics did in game 7 of the EFCs