Which of the four great wings would you build around?

[johnnygreen]

If it's based on any season in their careers: LeBron, Kawhi, Durant, Giannis

If it's based on this season: Durant, Kawhi, Giannis, LeBron

If it's based on next season: Kawhi, Durant, Giannis, LeBron

BTW, I can easily be talked into switching Giannis and LeBron for this season. I feel like everyone is completely dismissing LeBron because of how bad the Lakers were this season. He still put up 27.4, 8.5, and 8.3. The problem was the team was too young and so poorly constructed that they had no chance to make the playoffs.

[Moranis]

why the heck is Lebron in this? more crazy, who the heck thinks he is the top wing in the league? That is insane

Moranis has Kawhi 4th "by a pretty wide margin". Funny stuff

Lol. Leonard is averaging 38 points 9 rebounds and 62% in a second round series while playing elite defense. Lebron had an injury plagued year for a team that didn’t make the playoffs while playing bad defense. That is objectively an indefensible take and i don’t understand why someone would say it with a straight face

For 1 year, if you put Lebron and Kawhi on the same team (not together but the same supporting cast), I absolutely believe Lebron's team would do better than Kawhi's at the end of the day.  I'd certainly put far more stock in Lebron's team advancing farther in the playoffs, which is in fact the point of this question (at least as I saw it).  Heck even this year the Lakers were 28-27 with Lebron and 9-18 without him while the Raptors were 41-19 with Kawhi and 17-5 without him.  So the Raptors were significantly better without Leonard while the Lakers were significantly worse without James (and it is a similar sample size).

I honestly don’t believe that you actually think this.

Yeah crazy to think the guy that averaged more points, rebounds, assists, and blocks and who had a higher VORP and BPM was a better player than the guy that shot nominally better, had more steals, and turned it over less.  In addition, Lebron's on/off differential per 100 possessions was better and his teams record was much worse without him while Kawhi's team was actually better when he didn't play (and again both sample sizes fall between 1/4 and a 1/3 of the season).  Clearly Kawhi was a better and more consistent defender, but this is an offensive league where having a guy that is clearly a much better all around offensive player is far more valuable then having a guy who is a better shooter and defender, but does almost nothing else better. 

Lebron is obviously aging, so who knows what next year might bring, but for just this season I'd absolutely take Lebron over Kawhi and wouldn't give it a second thought.

[celticsclay]

why the heck is Lebron in this? more crazy, who the heck thinks he is the top wing in the league? That is insane

Moranis has Kawhi 4th "by a pretty wide margin". Funny stuff

Lol. Leonard is averaging 38 points 9 rebounds and 62% in a second round series while playing elite defense. Lebron had an injury plagued year for a team that didn’t make the playoffs while playing bad defense. That is objectively an indefensible take and i don’t understand why someone would say it with a straight face

For 1 year, if you put Lebron and Kawhi on the same team (not together but the same supporting cast), I absolutely believe Lebron's team would do better than Kawhi's at the end of the day.  I'd certainly put far more stock in Lebron's team advancing farther in the playoffs, which is in fact the point of this question (at least as I saw it).  Heck even this year the Lakers were 28-27 with Lebron and 9-18 without him while the Raptors were 41-19 with Kawhi and 17-5 without him.  So the Raptors were significantly better without Leonard while the Lakers were significantly worse without James (and it is a similar sample size).

I honestly don’t believe that you actually think this.

Yeah crazy to think the guy that averaged more points, rebounds, assists, and blocks and who had a higher VORP and BPM was a better player than the guy that shot nominally better, had more steals, and turned it over less.  In addition, Lebron's on/off differential per 100 possessions was better and his teams record was much worse without him while Kawhi's team was actually better when he didn't play (and again both sample sizes fall between 1/4 and a 1/3 of the season).  Clearly Kawhi was a better and more consistent defender, but this is an offensive league where having a guy that is clearly a much better all around offensive player is far more valuable then having a guy who is a better shooter and defender, but does almost nothing else better. 

Lebron is obviously aging, so who knows what next year might bring, but for just this season I'd absolutely take Lebron over Kawhi and wouldn't give it a second thought.

Do you not value defense? Are you watching this raptors 76ers series?

[Moranis]

why the heck is Lebron in this? more crazy, who the heck thinks he is the top wing in the league? That is insane

Moranis has Kawhi 4th "by a pretty wide margin". Funny stuff

Lol. Leonard is averaging 38 points 9 rebounds and 62% in a second round series while playing elite defense. Lebron had an injury plagued year for a team that didn’t make the playoffs while playing bad defense. That is objectively an indefensible take and i don’t understand why someone would say it with a straight face

For 1 year, if you put Lebron and Kawhi on the same team (not together but the same supporting cast), I absolutely believe Lebron's team would do better than Kawhi's at the end of the day.  I'd certainly put far more stock in Lebron's team advancing farther in the playoffs, which is in fact the point of this question (at least as I saw it).  Heck even this year the Lakers were 28-27 with Lebron and 9-18 without him while the Raptors were 41-19 with Kawhi and 17-5 without him.  So the Raptors were significantly better without Leonard while the Lakers were significantly worse without James (and it is a similar sample size).

I honestly don’t believe that you actually think this.

Yeah crazy to think the guy that averaged more points, rebounds, assists, and blocks and who had a higher VORP and BPM was a better player than the guy that shot nominally better, had more steals, and turned it over less.  In addition, Lebron's on/off differential per 100 possessions was better and his teams record was much worse without him while Kawhi's team was actually better when he didn't play (and again both sample sizes fall between 1/4 and a 1/3 of the season).  Clearly Kawhi was a better and more consistent defender, but this is an offensive league where having a guy that is clearly a much better all around offensive player is far more valuable then having a guy who is a better shooter and defender, but does almost nothing else better. 

Lebron is obviously aging, so who knows what next year might bring, but for just this season I'd absolutely take Lebron over Kawhi and wouldn't give it a second thought.

Do you not value defense? Are you watching this raptors 76ers series?

I am watching the series.  Kawhi has played well, but acting like Lebron couldn't do basically that exact same thing is strange.  And Jimmy Butler hasn't exactly been shut down this series.  Kawhi is out playing him overall, but even yesterday, Butler had a great game (and he is the opposing SF).  Embiid has always been the key to that series, and Embiid has been sick and it clearly showed yesterday (and even with his poorer game Embiid was +17 in the game).

And sure defense matters, but it is probably only about 20% of the equation any more.  It used to be much closer to offense, but in today's game, defense just isn't nearly as important as offense, as a great defense quite simply just cannot stop a great offense.  There is quite simply far more value in a great all around offensive player than a great all around defender (and I realize Kawhi is more than just a defender, but just that I prefer a guy that can actually run an offense to a straight up scorer).

[celticsclay]

why the heck is Lebron in this? more crazy, who the heck thinks he is the top wing in the league? That is insane

Moranis has Kawhi 4th "by a pretty wide margin". Funny stuff

Lol. Leonard is averaging 38 points 9 rebounds and 62% in a second round series while playing elite defense. Lebron had an injury plagued year for a team that didn’t make the playoffs while playing bad defense. That is objectively an indefensible take and i don’t understand why someone would say it with a straight face

For 1 year, if you put Lebron and Kawhi on the same team (not together but the same supporting cast), I absolutely believe Lebron's team would do better than Kawhi's at the end of the day.  I'd certainly put far more stock in Lebron's team advancing farther in the playoffs, which is in fact the point of this question (at least as I saw it).  Heck even this year the Lakers were 28-27 with Lebron and 9-18 without him while the Raptors were 41-19 with Kawhi and 17-5 without him.  So the Raptors were significantly better without Leonard while the Lakers were significantly worse without James (and it is a similar sample size).

I honestly don’t believe that you actually think this.

Yeah crazy to think the guy that averaged more points, rebounds, assists, and blocks and who had a higher VORP and BPM was a better player than the guy that shot nominally better, had more steals, and turned it over less.  In addition, Lebron's on/off differential per 100 possessions was better and his teams record was much worse without him while Kawhi's team was actually better when he didn't play (and again both sample sizes fall between 1/4 and a 1/3 of the season).  Clearly Kawhi was a better and more consistent defender, but this is an offensive league where having a guy that is clearly a much better all around offensive player is far more valuable then having a guy who is a better shooter and defender, but does almost nothing else better. 

Lebron is obviously aging, so who knows what next year might bring, but for just this season I'd absolutely take Lebron over Kawhi and wouldn't give it a second thought.

Do you not value defense? Are you watching this raptors 76ers series?

I am watching the series.  Kawhi has played well, but acting like Lebron couldn't do basically that exact same thing is strange.  And Jimmy Butler hasn't exactly been shut down this series.  Kawhi is out playing him overall, but even yesterday, Butler had a great game (and he is the opposing SF).  Embiid has always been the key to that series, and Embiid has been sick and it clearly showed yesterday (and even with his poorer game Embiid was +17 in the game).

And sure defense matters, but it is probably only about 20% of the equation any more.  It used to be much closer to offense, but in today's game, defense just isn't nearly as important as offense, as a great defense quite simply just cannot stop a great offense.  There is quite simply far more value in a great all around offensive player than a great all around defender (and I realize Kawhi is more than just a defender, but just that I prefer a guy that can actually run an offense to a straight up scorer).

Leonard is averaging 38 points, 62% shooting, 85% from foul line 48% from 3 and 9 rebounds in this series when the raptors second best player was completely gimpy game two, lowry and gasol have been brutally bad. Is this one of the best performances we have seen in the last few years? It is really incredible.

[Androslav]

why the heck is Lebron in this? more crazy, who the heck thinks he is the top wing in the league? That is insane

Moranis has Kawhi 4th "by a pretty wide margin". Funny stuff

Lol. Leonard is averaging 38 points 9 rebounds and 62% in a second round series while playing elite defense. Lebron had an injury plagued year for a team that didn’t make the playoffs while playing bad defense. That is objectively an indefensible take and i don’t understand why someone would say it with a straight face

For 1 year, if you put Lebron and Kawhi on the same team (not together but the same supporting cast), I absolutely believe Lebron's team would do better than Kawhi's at the end of the day.  I'd certainly put far more stock in Lebron's team advancing farther in the playoffs, which is in fact the point of this question (at least as I saw it).  Heck even this year the Lakers were 28-27 with Lebron and 9-18 without him while the Raptors were 41-19 with Kawhi and 17-5 without him.  So the Raptors were significantly better without Leonard while the Lakers were significantly worse without James (and it is a similar sample size).

I honestly don’t believe that you actually think this.

Yeah crazy to think the guy that averaged more points, rebounds, assists, and blocks and who had a higher VORP and BPM was a better player than the guy that shot nominally better, had more steals, and turned it over less.  In addition, Lebron's on/off differential per 100 possessions was better and his teams record was much worse without him while Kawhi's team was actually better when he didn't play (and again both sample sizes fall between 1/4 and a 1/3 of the season).  Clearly Kawhi was a better and more consistent defender, but this is an offensive league where having a guy that is clearly a much better all around offensive player is far more valuable then having a guy who is a better shooter and defender, but does almost nothing else better. 

Lebron is obviously aging, so who knows what next year might bring, but for just this season I'd absolutely take Lebron over Kawhi and wouldn't give it a second thought.

Do you not value defense? Are you watching this raptors 76ers series?

I am watching the series.  Kawhi has played well, but acting like Lebron couldn't do basically that exact same thing is strange.  And Jimmy Butler hasn't exactly been shut down this series.  Kawhi is out playing him overall, but even yesterday, Butler had a great game (and he is the opposing SF).  Embiid has always been the key to that series, and Embiid has been sick and it clearly showed yesterday (and even with his poorer game Embiid was +17 in the game).

And sure defense matters, but it is probably only about 20% of the equation any more.  It used to be much closer to offense, but in today's game, defense just isn't nearly as important as offense, as a great defense quite simply just cannot stop a great offense.  There is quite simply far more value in a great all around offensive player than a great all around defender (and I realize Kawhi is more than just a defender, but just that I prefer a guy that can actually run an offense to a straight up scorer).

Leonard is averaging 38 points, 62% shooting, 85% from foul line 48% from 3 and 9 rebounds in this series when the raptors second best player was completely gimpy game two, lowry and gasol have been brutally bad. Is this one of the best performances we have seen in the last few years? It is really incredible.

He believes that LBJ is the best even when he can't make the playoffs, so just relax.
It is not your explaining ability that is problematic.

[Moranis]

why the heck is Lebron in this? more crazy, who the heck thinks he is the top wing in the league? That is insane

Moranis has Kawhi 4th "by a pretty wide margin". Funny stuff

Lol. Leonard is averaging 38 points 9 rebounds and 62% in a second round series while playing elite defense. Lebron had an injury plagued year for a team that didn’t make the playoffs while playing bad defense. That is objectively an indefensible take and i don’t understand why someone would say it with a straight face

For 1 year, if you put Lebron and Kawhi on the same team (not together but the same supporting cast), I absolutely believe Lebron's team would do better than Kawhi's at the end of the day.  I'd certainly put far more stock in Lebron's team advancing farther in the playoffs, which is in fact the point of this question (at least as I saw it).  Heck even this year the Lakers were 28-27 with Lebron and 9-18 without him while the Raptors were 41-19 with Kawhi and 17-5 without him.  So the Raptors were significantly better without Leonard while the Lakers were significantly worse without James (and it is a similar sample size).

I honestly don’t believe that you actually think this.

Yeah crazy to think the guy that averaged more points, rebounds, assists, and blocks and who had a higher VORP and BPM was a better player than the guy that shot nominally better, had more steals, and turned it over less.  In addition, Lebron's on/off differential per 100 possessions was better and his teams record was much worse without him while Kawhi's team was actually better when he didn't play (and again both sample sizes fall between 1/4 and a 1/3 of the season).  Clearly Kawhi was a better and more consistent defender, but this is an offensive league where having a guy that is clearly a much better all around offensive player is far more valuable then having a guy who is a better shooter and defender, but does almost nothing else better. 

Lebron is obviously aging, so who knows what next year might bring, but for just this season I'd absolutely take Lebron over Kawhi and wouldn't give it a second thought.

Do you not value defense? Are you watching this raptors 76ers series?

I am watching the series.  Kawhi has played well, but acting like Lebron couldn't do basically that exact same thing is strange.  And Jimmy Butler hasn't exactly been shut down this series.  Kawhi is out playing him overall, but even yesterday, Butler had a great game (and he is the opposing SF).  Embiid has always been the key to that series, and Embiid has been sick and it clearly showed yesterday (and even with his poorer game Embiid was +17 in the game).

And sure defense matters, but it is probably only about 20% of the equation any more.  It used to be much closer to offense, but in today's game, defense just isn't nearly as important as offense, as a great defense quite simply just cannot stop a great offense.  There is quite simply far more value in a great all around offensive player than a great all around defender (and I realize Kawhi is more than just a defender, but just that I prefer a guy that can actually run an offense to a straight up scorer).

Leonard is averaging 38 points, 62% shooting, 85% from foul line 48% from 3 and 9 rebounds in this series when the raptors second best player was completely gimpy game two, lowry and gasol have been brutally bad. Is this one of the best performances we have seen in the last few years? It is really incredible.

His shooting has been tremendous in the series, but we are also comparing him to 2 former league MVP's and the likely MVP this year.  Let's not pretend me having him 4th on that list is some great injustice.

Oh and for the record, in last year's 2nd round James averaged 34 ppg, 11.3 apg, 8.3 rpg, 1.8 spg, and 1.0 bpg with a TS% of 58.  That was of course a 2nd round sweep of the best team in the conference.  And that TS% was actually below what he averaged during the Cavs entire run last year as James ended up with a TS% of 62% in the 22 playoff games.  James averaged 34 ppg, 9.0 apg, 9.1 rpg, 1.4 spg, and 1.0 bpg in those 22 playoff games.  To think that James wouldn't be able to do something similar this year is a bit strange given his regular season numbers were pretty similar this year with the Lakers as they were last year with the Cavs. 

[Moranis]

why the heck is Lebron in this? more crazy, who the heck thinks he is the top wing in the league? That is insane

Moranis has Kawhi 4th "by a pretty wide margin". Funny stuff

Lol. Leonard is averaging 38 points 9 rebounds and 62% in a second round series while playing elite defense. Lebron had an injury plagued year for a team that didn’t make the playoffs while playing bad defense. That is objectively an indefensible take and i don’t understand why someone would say it with a straight face

For 1 year, if you put Lebron and Kawhi on the same team (not together but the same supporting cast), I absolutely believe Lebron's team would do better than Kawhi's at the end of the day.  I'd certainly put far more stock in Lebron's team advancing farther in the playoffs, which is in fact the point of this question (at least as I saw it).  Heck even this year the Lakers were 28-27 with Lebron and 9-18 without him while the Raptors were 41-19 with Kawhi and 17-5 without him.  So the Raptors were significantly better without Leonard while the Lakers were significantly worse without James (and it is a similar sample size).

I honestly don’t believe that you actually think this.

Yeah crazy to think the guy that averaged more points, rebounds, assists, and blocks and who had a higher VORP and BPM was a better player than the guy that shot nominally better, had more steals, and turned it over less.  In addition, Lebron's on/off differential per 100 possessions was better and his teams record was much worse without him while Kawhi's team was actually better when he didn't play (and again both sample sizes fall between 1/4 and a 1/3 of the season).  Clearly Kawhi was a better and more consistent defender, but this is an offensive league where having a guy that is clearly a much better all around offensive player is far more valuable then having a guy who is a better shooter and defender, but does almost nothing else better. 

Lebron is obviously aging, so who knows what next year might bring, but for just this season I'd absolutely take Lebron over Kawhi and wouldn't give it a second thought.

Do you not value defense? Are you watching this raptors 76ers series?

I am watching the series.  Kawhi has played well, but acting like Lebron couldn't do basically that exact same thing is strange.  And Jimmy Butler hasn't exactly been shut down this series.  Kawhi is out playing him overall, but even yesterday, Butler had a great game (and he is the opposing SF).  Embiid has always been the key to that series, and Embiid has been sick and it clearly showed yesterday (and even with his poorer game Embiid was +17 in the game).

And sure defense matters, but it is probably only about 20% of the equation any more.  It used to be much closer to offense, but in today's game, defense just isn't nearly as important as offense, as a great defense quite simply just cannot stop a great offense.  There is quite simply far more value in a great all around offensive player than a great all around defender (and I realize Kawhi is more than just a defender, but just that I prefer a guy that can actually run an offense to a straight up scorer).

Leonard is averaging 38 points, 62% shooting, 85% from foul line 48% from 3 and 9 rebounds in this series when the raptors second best player was completely gimpy game two, lowry and gasol have been brutally bad. Is this one of the best performances we have seen in the last few years? It is really incredible.

He believes that LBJ is the best even when he can't make the playoffs, so just relax.
It is not your explaining ability that is problematic.

Except I don't.  I've already said several times in this thread I'd have James 3rd a good deal behind Giannis and Durant. 

I actually had this same conversation about Leonard with clay.  Last time I argued I'd rather have Giannis than Leonard (this was right before he got hurt in San Antonio) and clay made it seem like I was loon.  Of course that season, Giannis did something that has never been done in league history i.e. end up in the top 20 in all 5 major statistical categories and he followed that up with his likely MVP this year. 

Leonard to me is a scoring defender, but he isn't an offense initiator or creator and I just find the latter far more valuable than the former.  I want my great player to be able to do everything offensively and just find Leonard too limited as compared to the other 3.  That shouldn't be some great travesty or injustice. 

[Androslav]

why the heck is Lebron in this? more crazy, who the heck thinks he is the top wing in the league? That is insane

Moranis has Kawhi 4th "by a pretty wide margin". Funny stuff

Lol. Leonard is averaging 38 points 9 rebounds and 62% in a second round series while playing elite defense. Lebron had an injury plagued year for a team that didn’t make the playoffs while playing bad defense. That is objectively an indefensible take and i don’t understand why someone would say it with a straight face

For 1 year, if you put Lebron and Kawhi on the same team (not together but the same supporting cast), I absolutely believe Lebron's team would do better than Kawhi's at the end of the day.  I'd certainly put far more stock in Lebron's team advancing farther in the playoffs, which is in fact the point of this question (at least as I saw it).  Heck even this year the Lakers were 28-27 with Lebron and 9-18 without him while the Raptors were 41-19 with Kawhi and 17-5 without him.  So the Raptors were significantly better without Leonard while the Lakers were significantly worse without James (and it is a similar sample size).

I honestly don’t believe that you actually think this.

Yeah crazy to think the guy that averaged more points, rebounds, assists, and blocks and who had a higher VORP and BPM was a better player than the guy that shot nominally better, had more steals, and turned it over less.  In addition, Lebron's on/off differential per 100 possessions was better and his teams record was much worse without him while Kawhi's team was actually better when he didn't play (and again both sample sizes fall between 1/4 and a 1/3 of the season).  Clearly Kawhi was a better and more consistent defender, but this is an offensive league where having a guy that is clearly a much better all around offensive player is far more valuable then having a guy who is a better shooter and defender, but does almost nothing else better. 

Lebron is obviously aging, so who knows what next year might bring, but for just this season I'd absolutely take Lebron over Kawhi and wouldn't give it a second thought.

Do you not value defense? Are you watching this raptors 76ers series?

I am watching the series.  Kawhi has played well, but acting like Lebron couldn't do basically that exact same thing is strange.  And Jimmy Butler hasn't exactly been shut down this series.  Kawhi is out playing him overall, but even yesterday, Butler had a great game (and he is the opposing SF).  Embiid has always been the key to that series, and Embiid has been sick and it clearly showed yesterday (and even with his poorer game Embiid was +17 in the game).

And sure defense matters, but it is probably only about 20% of the equation any more.  It used to be much closer to offense, but in today's game, defense just isn't nearly as important as offense, as a great defense quite simply just cannot stop a great offense.  There is quite simply far more value in a great all around offensive player than a great all around defender (and I realize Kawhi is more than just a defender, but just that I prefer a guy that can actually run an offense to a straight up scorer).

Leonard is averaging 38 points, 62% shooting, 85% from foul line 48% from 3 and 9 rebounds in this series when the raptors second best player was completely gimpy game two, lowry and gasol have been brutally bad. Is this one of the best performances we have seen in the last few years? It is really incredible.

He believes that LBJ is the best even when he can't make the playoffs, so just relax.
It is not your explaining ability that is problematic.

Except I don't.  I've already said several times in this thread I'd have James 3rd a good deal behind Giannis and Durant. 

I actually had this same conversation about Leonard with clay.  Last time I argued I'd rather have Giannis than Leonard (this was right before he got hurt in San Antonio) and clay made it seem like I was loon.  Of course that season, Giannis did something that has never been done in league history i.e. end up in the top 20 in all 5 major statistical categories and he followed that up with his likely MVP this year. 

Leonard to me is a scoring defender, but he isn't an offense initiator or creator and I just find the latter far more valuable than the former.  I want my great player to be able to do everything offensively and just find Leonard too limited as compared to the other 3.  That shouldn't be some great travesty or injustice.

I think you say it but that don't actually mean it.
And especially since LeBron got Kawhied (got defended best out of all of his defenders) you try to minimize his impact, so that in some remote way you improve LBJ current and future status in the eyes of other forum participants.
Maybe its just me, but also your 21k posts say this.

[celticsclay]

why the heck is Lebron in this? more crazy, who the heck thinks he is the top wing in the league? That is insane

Moranis has Kawhi 4th "by a pretty wide margin". Funny stuff

Lol. Leonard is averaging 38 points 9 rebounds and 62% in a second round series while playing elite defense. Lebron had an injury plagued year for a team that didn’t make the playoffs while playing bad defense. That is objectively an indefensible take and i don’t understand why someone would say it with a straight face

For 1 year, if you put Lebron and Kawhi on the same team (not together but the same supporting cast), I absolutely believe Lebron's team would do better than Kawhi's at the end of the day.  I'd certainly put far more stock in Lebron's team advancing farther in the playoffs, which is in fact the point of this question (at least as I saw it).  Heck even this year the Lakers were 28-27 with Lebron and 9-18 without him while the Raptors were 41-19 with Kawhi and 17-5 without him.  So the Raptors were significantly better without Leonard while the Lakers were significantly worse without James (and it is a similar sample size).

I honestly don’t believe that you actually think this.

Yeah crazy to think the guy that averaged more points, rebounds, assists, and blocks and who had a higher VORP and BPM was a better player than the guy that shot nominally better, had more steals, and turned it over less.  In addition, Lebron's on/off differential per 100 possessions was better and his teams record was much worse without him while Kawhi's team was actually better when he didn't play (and again both sample sizes fall between 1/4 and a 1/3 of the season).  Clearly Kawhi was a better and more consistent defender, but this is an offensive league where having a guy that is clearly a much better all around offensive player is far more valuable then having a guy who is a better shooter and defender, but does almost nothing else better. 

Lebron is obviously aging, so who knows what next year might bring, but for just this season I'd absolutely take Lebron over Kawhi and wouldn't give it a second thought.

Do you not value defense? Are you watching this raptors 76ers series?

I am watching the series.  Kawhi has played well, but acting like Lebron couldn't do basically that exact same thing is strange.  And Jimmy Butler hasn't exactly been shut down this series.  Kawhi is out playing him overall, but even yesterday, Butler had a great game (and he is the opposing SF).  Embiid has always been the key to that series, and Embiid has been sick and it clearly showed yesterday (and even with his poorer game Embiid was +17 in the game).

And sure defense matters, but it is probably only about 20% of the equation any more.  It used to be much closer to offense, but in today's game, defense just isn't nearly as important as offense, as a great defense quite simply just cannot stop a great offense.  There is quite simply far more value in a great all around offensive player than a great all around defender (and I realize Kawhi is more than just a defender, but just that I prefer a guy that can actually run an offense to a straight up scorer).

Leonard is averaging 38 points, 62% shooting, 85% from foul line 48% from 3 and 9 rebounds in this series when the raptors second best player was completely gimpy game two, lowry and gasol have been brutally bad. Is this one of the best performances we have seen in the last few years? It is really incredible.

His shooting has been tremendous in the series, but we are also comparing him to 2 former league MVP's and the likely MVP this year.  Let's not pretend me having him 4th on that list is some great injustice.

Oh and for the record, in last year's 2nd round James averaged 34 ppg, 11.3 apg, 8.3 rpg, 1.8 spg, and 1.0 bpg with a TS% of 58.  That was of course a 2nd round sweep of the best team in the conference.  And that TS% was actually below what he averaged during the Cavs entire run last year as James ended up with a TS% of 62% in the 22 playoff games.  James averaged 34 ppg, 9.0 apg, 9.1 rpg, 1.4 spg, and 1.0 bpg in those 22 playoff games.  To think that James wouldn't be able to do something similar this year is a bit strange given his regular season numbers were pretty similar this year with the Lakers as they were last year with the Cavs.

Are you trying to argue this in some strange way where the 2018-2019 season did not actually happen? We are disregarding it and using a time machine to go back a year and argue whether for a year ago we would have wanted these guys for the season to be replayed? If so, wow.

 Otherwise, i think anyone would read this poll questions as for the 2019-2020 coming up in which case Lebron is doing to be 35, coming off a season in which his defense was comically bad, he was a lousy teammate, and didn't make the playoffs.

Meanwhile we are coming off a season where Leonard has a very reasonable chance of getting his team to the ECF or further while averaging 39pg ON 62% shooting while being defended by two guys that are considered above average defenders and being used as a swiss army knife on defense to slow down other players. And using stats from a year ago to argue how Lebron would perform in next year's playoffs, just doesn't make a lot of sense... especially when Leonard literally did this yesterday.

[Moranis]

why the heck is Lebron in this? more crazy, who the heck thinks he is the top wing in the league? That is insane

Moranis has Kawhi 4th "by a pretty wide margin". Funny stuff

Lol. Leonard is averaging 38 points 9 rebounds and 62% in a second round series while playing elite defense. Lebron had an injury plagued year for a team that didn’t make the playoffs while playing bad defense. That is objectively an indefensible take and i don’t understand why someone would say it with a straight face

For 1 year, if you put Lebron and Kawhi on the same team (not together but the same supporting cast), I absolutely believe Lebron's team would do better than Kawhi's at the end of the day.  I'd certainly put far more stock in Lebron's team advancing farther in the playoffs, which is in fact the point of this question (at least as I saw it).  Heck even this year the Lakers were 28-27 with Lebron and 9-18 without him while the Raptors were 41-19 with Kawhi and 17-5 without him.  So the Raptors were significantly better without Leonard while the Lakers were significantly worse without James (and it is a similar sample size).

I honestly don’t believe that you actually think this.

Yeah crazy to think the guy that averaged more points, rebounds, assists, and blocks and who had a higher VORP and BPM was a better player than the guy that shot nominally better, had more steals, and turned it over less.  In addition, Lebron's on/off differential per 100 possessions was better and his teams record was much worse without him while Kawhi's team was actually better when he didn't play (and again both sample sizes fall between 1/4 and a 1/3 of the season).  Clearly Kawhi was a better and more consistent defender, but this is an offensive league where having a guy that is clearly a much better all around offensive player is far more valuable then having a guy who is a better shooter and defender, but does almost nothing else better. 

Lebron is obviously aging, so who knows what next year might bring, but for just this season I'd absolutely take Lebron over Kawhi and wouldn't give it a second thought.

Do you not value defense? Are you watching this raptors 76ers series?

I am watching the series.  Kawhi has played well, but acting like Lebron couldn't do basically that exact same thing is strange.  And Jimmy Butler hasn't exactly been shut down this series.  Kawhi is out playing him overall, but even yesterday, Butler had a great game (and he is the opposing SF).  Embiid has always been the key to that series, and Embiid has been sick and it clearly showed yesterday (and even with his poorer game Embiid was +17 in the game).

And sure defense matters, but it is probably only about 20% of the equation any more.  It used to be much closer to offense, but in today's game, defense just isn't nearly as important as offense, as a great defense quite simply just cannot stop a great offense.  There is quite simply far more value in a great all around offensive player than a great all around defender (and I realize Kawhi is more than just a defender, but just that I prefer a guy that can actually run an offense to a straight up scorer).

Leonard is averaging 38 points, 62% shooting, 85% from foul line 48% from 3 and 9 rebounds in this series when the raptors second best player was completely gimpy game two, lowry and gasol have been brutally bad. Is this one of the best performances we have seen in the last few years? It is really incredible.

His shooting has been tremendous in the series, but we are also comparing him to 2 former league MVP's and the likely MVP this year.  Let's not pretend me having him 4th on that list is some great injustice.

Oh and for the record, in last year's 2nd round James averaged 34 ppg, 11.3 apg, 8.3 rpg, 1.8 spg, and 1.0 bpg with a TS% of 58.  That was of course a 2nd round sweep of the best team in the conference.  And that TS% was actually below what he averaged during the Cavs entire run last year as James ended up with a TS% of 62% in the 22 playoff games.  James averaged 34 ppg, 9.0 apg, 9.1 rpg, 1.4 spg, and 1.0 bpg in those 22 playoff games.  To think that James wouldn't be able to do something similar this year is a bit strange given his regular season numbers were pretty similar this year with the Lakers as they were last year with the Cavs.

Are you trying to argue this in some strange way where the 2018-2019 season did not actually happen? We are disregarding it and using a time machine to go back a year and argue whether for a year ago we would have wanted these guys for the season to be replayed? If so, wow.

 Otherwise, i think anyone would read this poll questions as for the 2019-2020 coming up in which case Lebron is doing to be 35, coming off a season in which his defense was comically bad, he was a lousy teammate, and didn't make the playoffs.

Meanwhile we are coming off a season where Leonard has a very reasonable chance of getting his team to the ECF or further while averaging 39pg ON 62% shooting while being defended by two guys that are considered above average defenders and being used as a swiss army knife on defense to slow down other players. And using stats from a year ago to argue how Lebron would perform in next year's playoffs, just doesn't make a lot of sense... especially when Leonard literally did this yesterday.

This season absolutely happened and Lebron James averaged more points, rebounds, and assists than Kawhi Leonard did.  Lebron James' team performed significantly worse in the games he missed while Kawhi Leonard's team had a significantly better record in the games he missed.

And there is nothing in the opening question that discusses what season we are supposed to be looking at.  Nothing at all.  I took the question to mean right now for this season, and I absolutely would rather have Lebron James than Kawhi Leonard on my team in the playoffs right now.  I'd prefer Giannis though as I believe he is the best player in the game given just how hard he is to stop on offense coupled with his elite level defense (which is of lesser importance, but I do think is what separates him from Durant).

[celticsclay]

why the heck is Lebron in this? more crazy, who the heck thinks he is the top wing in the league? That is insane

Moranis has Kawhi 4th "by a pretty wide margin". Funny stuff

Lol. Leonard is averaging 38 points 9 rebounds and 62% in a second round series while playing elite defense. Lebron had an injury plagued year for a team that didn’t make the playoffs while playing bad defense. That is objectively an indefensible take and i don’t understand why someone would say it with a straight face

For 1 year, if you put Lebron and Kawhi on the same team (not together but the same supporting cast), I absolutely believe Lebron's team would do better than Kawhi's at the end of the day.  I'd certainly put far more stock in Lebron's team advancing farther in the playoffs, which is in fact the point of this question (at least as I saw it).  Heck even this year the Lakers were 28-27 with Lebron and 9-18 without him while the Raptors were 41-19 with Kawhi and 17-5 without him.  So the Raptors were significantly better without Leonard while the Lakers were significantly worse without James (and it is a similar sample size).

I honestly don’t believe that you actually think this.

Yeah crazy to think the guy that averaged more points, rebounds, assists, and blocks and who had a higher VORP and BPM was a better player than the guy that shot nominally better, had more steals, and turned it over less.  In addition, Lebron's on/off differential per 100 possessions was better and his teams record was much worse without him while Kawhi's team was actually better when he didn't play (and again both sample sizes fall between 1/4 and a 1/3 of the season).  Clearly Kawhi was a better and more consistent defender, but this is an offensive league where having a guy that is clearly a much better all around offensive player is far more valuable then having a guy who is a better shooter and defender, but does almost nothing else better. 

Lebron is obviously aging, so who knows what next year might bring, but for just this season I'd absolutely take Lebron over Kawhi and wouldn't give it a second thought.

Do you not value defense? Are you watching this raptors 76ers series?

I am watching the series.  Kawhi has played well, but acting like Lebron couldn't do basically that exact same thing is strange.  And Jimmy Butler hasn't exactly been shut down this series.  Kawhi is out playing him overall, but even yesterday, Butler had a great game (and he is the opposing SF).  Embiid has always been the key to that series, and Embiid has been sick and it clearly showed yesterday (and even with his poorer game Embiid was +17 in the game).

And sure defense matters, but it is probably only about 20% of the equation any more.  It used to be much closer to offense, but in today's game, defense just isn't nearly as important as offense, as a great defense quite simply just cannot stop a great offense.  There is quite simply far more value in a great all around offensive player than a great all around defender (and I realize Kawhi is more than just a defender, but just that I prefer a guy that can actually run an offense to a straight up scorer).

Leonard is averaging 38 points, 62% shooting, 85% from foul line 48% from 3 and 9 rebounds in this series when the raptors second best player was completely gimpy game two, lowry and gasol have been brutally bad. Is this one of the best performances we have seen in the last few years? It is really incredible.

His shooting has been tremendous in the series, but we are also comparing him to 2 former league MVP's and the likely MVP this year.  Let's not pretend me having him 4th on that list is some great injustice.

Oh and for the record, in last year's 2nd round James averaged 34 ppg, 11.3 apg, 8.3 rpg, 1.8 spg, and 1.0 bpg with a TS% of 58.  That was of course a 2nd round sweep of the best team in the conference.  And that TS% was actually below what he averaged during the Cavs entire run last year as James ended up with a TS% of 62% in the 22 playoff games.  James averaged 34 ppg, 9.0 apg, 9.1 rpg, 1.4 spg, and 1.0 bpg in those 22 playoff games.  To think that James wouldn't be able to do something similar this year is a bit strange given his regular season numbers were pretty similar this year with the Lakers as they were last year with the Cavs.

Are you trying to argue this in some strange way where the 2018-2019 season did not actually happen? We are disregarding it and using a time machine to go back a year and argue whether for a year ago we would have wanted these guys for the season to be replayed? If so, wow.

 Otherwise, i think anyone would read this poll questions as for the 2019-2020 coming up in which case Lebron is doing to be 35, coming off a season in which his defense was comically bad, he was a lousy teammate, and didn't make the playoffs.

Meanwhile we are coming off a season where Leonard has a very reasonable chance of getting his team to the ECF or further while averaging 39pg ON 62% shooting while being defended by two guys that are considered above average defenders and being used as a swiss army knife on defense to slow down other players. And using stats from a year ago to argue how Lebron would perform in next year's playoffs, just doesn't make a lot of sense... especially when Leonard literally did this yesterday.

This season absolutely happened and Lebron James averaged more points, rebounds, and assists than Kawhi Leonard did.  Lebron James' team performed significantly worse in the games he missed while Kawhi Leonard's team had a significantly better record in the games he missed.

And there is nothing in the opening question that discusses what season we are supposed to be looking at.  Nothing at all.  I took the question to mean right now for this season, and I absolutely would rather have Lebron James than Kawhi Leonard on my team in the playoffs right now.  I'd prefer Giannis though as I believe he is the best player in the game given just how hard he is to stop on offense coupled with his elite level defense (which is of lesser importance, but I do think is what separates him from Durant).

Lebron's season is over. The season happened. Are you talking about taking Lebron off the couch a month after he last played and saying you would rather have than a guy that had 39 points yesterday? Where are you going with this? Also, you are too smart a poster to just try to say things like "BUT POINTZ!". I know you understand the game a little better than to be completely swayed a by a slight difference in counting stats. I have seen you used more nuanced arguments in debates than this.

Also... i mean come on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxG3IQqknho

[celticsclay]

anyone want to change their vote on this? Seems like Leonard has really created some separation this playoff run. The concept of 34 year old lebron being better than what Leonard has done this playoff run now looks particularly humorous.

[gouki88]

anyone want to change their vote on this? Seems like Leonard has really created some separation this playoff run. The concept of 34 year old lebron being better than what Leonard has done this playoff run now looks particularly humorous.

It was very humorous at the time too tbh, hence the 4 votes. I imagine 3 of those votes would change