Author Topic: Did We Really Fleece the Nets?...  (Read 6521 times)

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Re: Did We Really Fleece the Nets?...
« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2021, 10:56:29 AM »

Offline Ogaju

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Food for thought: In the absence of the trade with the Nets, perhaps we make 1-2 more mediocre runs with KG/Pierce/Rondo followed by a complete demolition/rebuild that still results in us eventually securing 2-3 of the following: Simmons, Ingram, or Jaylen; Tatum; Doncic.

Ultimately, what is different? 2-3 conference championship appearances? No Kyrie drama? Perhaps instead of those it would have been better to see PP/KG retire as Celtics followed by having an even better young core today...

Interesting take that very few if anyone has considered. May deserve its own thread. What would have happened if Ainge had not done Nets deal.

Re: Did We Really Fleece the Nets?...
« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2021, 11:17:47 AM »

Offline NKY fan

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Food for thought: In the absence of the trade with the Nets, perhaps we make 1-2 more mediocre runs with KG/Pierce/Rondo followed by a complete demolition/rebuild that still results in us eventually securing 2-3 of the following: Simmons, Ingram, or Jaylen; Tatum; Doncic.

Ultimately, what is different? 2-3 conference championship appearances? No Kyrie drama? Perhaps instead of those it would have been better to see PP/KG retire as Celtics followed by having an even better young core today...

Interesting take that very few if anyone has considered. May deserve its own thread. What would have happened if Ainge had not done Nets deal.
We missed the playoffs once vs probably 2-3 times if not for the trade. But the owners raked in huge profits because of the lean payroll and overachievement. Here is an interesting note a lot of fans and journalists almost sympathize with the owner for avoiding paying too much money in luxury tax. I still don’t understand why fans care much about the luxury tax that much but we were financial champs while playing in the playoffs unlike other rebuilding teams.

We still end up with Jaylen and Tatum (because those were Danny’s targets and we would be drafting high enough) but I would stop at that. It’s also possible that with team competing for 8th seed with KG/PP Danny drafts Giannis instead of Kelly in 2013 with similar reasoning he has drafted all those busts since then.
It’s not unreasonable to think we end up with Giannis , Jaylen , Tatum. I don’t think doncic would be reasonable unless Danny trades up for him with jaylen or giannis.
Overall it’s hard to say what could have been ... maybe someone can build a model and run simulations.
You also have to account for dealing with Doc dramaqueenness which very few fans had appetite for lol

Re: Did We Really Fleece the Nets?...
« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2021, 11:21:23 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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Food for thought: In the absence of the trade with the Nets, perhaps we make 1-2 more mediocre runs with KG/Pierce/Rondo followed by a complete demolition/rebuild that still results in us eventually securing 2-3 of the following: Simmons, Ingram, or Jaylen; Tatum; Doncic.

Ultimately, what is different? 2-3 conference championship appearances? No Kyrie drama? Perhaps instead of those it would have been better to see PP/KG retire as Celtics followed by having an even better young core today...

Interesting take that very few if anyone has considered. May deserve its own thread. What would have happened if Ainge had not done Nets deal.

I wrote this back in 2013, shortly after the trade deadline (when a vocal segment was lamenting that Danny didn't blow things up right then).  This was written well _before_ the Nets trade.

https://www.celticsblog.com/2013/2/22/4016162/doom-despair-or-danny-has-a-plan

TLDR:  Danny had a multi-pathed 'plan' from way back then that lead clearly to the ~2016 summer as the time when his suite of contracts were set to give him massive flexibility for player acquisition.  The point of my article is that there were multiple paths that could be followed that all led to the same point down the road.  We could have kept Pierce & KG or dealt them immediately or some other variation.  Danny's contract portfolio was the real control over the timeline.

Sure enough, in 2016 is when Danny ended up signing Al Horford and trying for Kevin Durant.  Yes, we failed to get KD, but we then added Hayward the next year.

The exact path is always dictated by lesser things, outside Danny's control.  I think Danny originally expected to stay with Pierce & KG for at least one more season, but Rondo's injury was not something you can plan for.  That suddenly put the kibosh on trying to 'roll it back' with Pierce, KG & Doc for one more year and led to those guys all agreeing to move on.   But even while both changing coaches and pulling off the Nets deal, he still kept to the larger long term plan.

Pretty amazing to think he managed the rebuild with just one 'tank' year.
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Re: Did We Really Fleece the Nets?...
« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2021, 11:22:54 AM »

Offline tstorey_97

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Ok the Nets took their "new team" in their new stadium and went to the playoffs and they won one round.

('13-'14)So they traded three first round picks and their return was they won one playoff round against the Raptors.

Then they lost to the Heat in the second round.

('14-'15) In the next season they were 38-44 got the eight seed and lost to the Hawks in 6 games.

('15-'16) They went 21-61.

Now there's a piping hot return for 3 first round picks from a terrible team.

Prokhorov paid around ("adjusted" related to the arena ownership) $200M for the New Jersey Nets in 2009.

He recently sold the managing share of the team for $2.35B to Joe Tsai.

Anyways, after the Boston trade and the deal to move to Brooklyn? The New Nets were valued at $550M in 2014.

Did Nets fans get fleeced?

Yes they got crushed. 277-369 ...a stunning win loss record since moving to Brooklyn.

The Celtics meanwhile put up 318-228.

They have Tatum and Brown from the trade who are 8th and 10th in the NBA for scoring this season.

The concept that Net's fans didn't get absolutely destroyed in the above trade scenario is quite simply bunko.

Counsel for Net's fans in OP's case...

"Your honor? We move that the above stated conclusion..the Nets got fleeced in the Celtics trade... be recognized by this court as true."

Counsel for the OP....

"Your honor on behalf of the poster in this matter we move to throw ourselves to the mercy of the court."

Judge...

"The court finds the poster guilty in this matter on all counts....we will recess before scheduling a sentencing hearing."



« Last Edit: January 19, 2021, 11:32:10 AM by tstorey_97 »

Re: Did We Really Fleece the Nets?...
« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2021, 02:28:07 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I don't see the connection.

The Nets getting Kyrie and Durant doesn't have much if anything to do with the 2013 trade.

So yes, the Celts fleeced the Nets. 

The Nets did a good job of rebounding from that fleecing.  Certainly helps that they're in Brooklyn.
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Re: Did We Really Fleece the Nets?...
« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2021, 02:34:52 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Danny’s gotta retire: He’s too toxic to free agents, nobody wants to trade with him anymore, and we last won a title almost 13 years ago, when George W. Bush was still president. We need to get Popovich here.


I must have imagined all those free agents and trades Danny was responsible for in the last 7-8 years.


Boy I sure wish the Celts could have signed a free agent in the last decade. 

Imagine how good they could have been with Al Horford.  Or Kemba Walker. 

Tristan Thompson would sure help the team this year!


It's too bad Danny couldn't get Phoenix to engage with him on a trade for Isaiah Thomas. Imagine what might have been!



If you think that a GM or a coach should get fired after a certain period of time if they haven't won a title, I guess I can't argue with that.  That's a matter of opinion / personal philosophy. 

I don't agree with that mindset at all.  The Celts have been one of the most successful teams in the league since the end of the Pierce/KG era, even though they haven't won a title.  They're well set up to continue to be very successful for the next half decade or longer.  Certainly they've had some good luck, but also plenty of bad. 

In my book, Ainge has done a very good job.  Brad Stevens, too.  That's not to say they're perfect. But I'm not at all confident that some other GM / coach combo would have had different results, or would be better moving forward.

You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: Did We Really Fleece the Nets?...
« Reply #51 on: January 19, 2021, 03:04:37 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Food for thought: In the absence of the trade with the Nets, perhaps we make 1-2 more mediocre runs with KG/Pierce/Rondo followed by a complete demolition/rebuild that still results in us eventually securing 2-3 of the following: Simmons, Ingram, or Jaylen; Tatum; Doncic.

Ultimately, what is different? 2-3 conference championship appearances? No Kyrie drama? Perhaps instead of those it would have been better to see PP/KG retire as Celtics followed by having an even better young core today...

Interesting take that very few if anyone has considered. May deserve its own thread. What would have happened if Ainge had not done Nets deal.
We missed the playoffs once vs probably 2-3 times if not for the trade. But the owners raked in huge profits because of the lean payroll and overachievement. Here is an interesting note a lot of fans and journalists almost sympathize with the owner for avoiding paying too much money in luxury tax. I still don’t understand why fans care much about the luxury tax that much but we were financial champs while playing in the playoffs unlike other rebuilding teams.

We still end up with Jaylen and Tatum (because those were Danny’s targets and we would be drafting high enough) but I would stop at that. It’s also possible that with team competing for 8th seed with KG/PP Danny drafts Giannis instead of Kelly in 2013 with similar reasoning he has drafted all those busts since then.
It’s not unreasonable to think we end up with Giannis , Jaylen , Tatum. I don’t think doncic would be reasonable unless Danny trades up for him with jaylen or giannis.
Overall it’s hard to say what could have been ... maybe someone can build a model and run simulations.
You also have to account for dealing with Doc dramaqueenness which very few fans had appetite for lol

I think that it is pretty unreasonable.  It’s not impossible, but it’s exceedingly unlikely.


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Re: Did We Really Fleece the Nets?...
« Reply #52 on: January 19, 2021, 03:59:37 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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https://www.celticsblog.com/2021/1/19/22237956/what-is-it-really-like-to-talk-trades-with-danny-ainge-boston-celtics

OP should read this

Quote
Danny Ainge was named General Manager of the Boston Celtics on May 9th, 2003. During the 18-year period he’s led the Celtics (2020-21 is season 18), Ainge has made 63 trades. That’s more than any other front office executive during the same timeframe. His willingness to deal earned Ainge the “Trader Danny” moniker.

As one Eastern Conference Executive put it: “Danny has been doing this longer in one place than almost anyone else. You only get to do that by being really, really good at what you do.”



As somebody who regularly negotiates for a living, I want to underscore for people that you don't want to be the person that other people find super easy to deal with.  At the same time, you don't want people to hate talking to you.  But if other people are relieved to be negotiating with you, it's usually because they think it's going to be easy to get a favorable deal.

Any hard-driven bargain should leave both sides feeling like they got something that the other side didn't want to give up and also that they had to give up something they would have preferred not to give. 

If you're ever in a position where you need to make a deal just to get a deal done, you're usually in a much worse bargaining position and have to give up a lot more.  We should be glad the Celtics don't seem to end up in that spot every often, and when they do, it seems that Danny still refuses to take a bad deal.  He usually finds a way to salvage some value (as he did with the Hayward TPE).
« Last Edit: January 19, 2021, 04:32:26 PM by PhoSita »
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain