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Celtics Basketball => Celtics History => Topic started by: TitleMaster on May 06, 2018, 06:05:34 PM

Title: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: TitleMaster on May 06, 2018, 06:05:34 PM
I've been arguing this point for years now!

Doc Rivers sucked!

He had PP/KG, both of whom in their mid-30s, playing all of the time, to maintain leads and give the Celts a chance of winning during those contender years, from '08 to '12.

And now finally, after all those years of me hollering at you, you see a Brad Stevens, learning how to utilize, EVERY MAN ON THE ROSTER, to maintain leads and perhaps, even win some games even while his equivalent of KG/PP were on the bench, nursing their wounds.

This is why I will never respect Rivers. Sure, if KG/PP were 24-28 years old and at 100%, game after game, they wouldn't need a team. They could hire a bunch of scrubs and go, 60-22, season after season. In effect, this is what Doc's strategy had hope for, in terms of being a regular championship contender.

Stevens, on the other hand, never had that luxury. He had to think and then, out think the opponents, game after game. In effect, if he had KG/PP, he may have been even used both of them as elderly co-sixth men, and won series.






Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: CelticsElite on May 06, 2018, 06:11:59 PM
Maybe. I never thought coaching was the issue. It was more of unfortunate luck of injuries and some other things .


At the time doc rivers was highly respected around the league. We traded doc for a 1st round pick. No other coach that I can remember was ever traded like that
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: Eja117 on May 06, 2018, 06:12:23 PM
Agreed
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: Phantom255x on May 06, 2018, 06:13:44 PM
I think with CBS, we win 3 titles with that team.

Yes, injuries played a part and they sucked (especially 2009), but I feel CBS could have still maximized their chances with whoever else they had. Doc couldn't, and he hasn't been able to with the Clippers at all either.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: Celtics4ever on May 06, 2018, 06:14:15 PM
Doc is  and was only as good as his players.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: KGs Knee on May 06, 2018, 06:16:02 PM
Unless Stevens could have convinced KG to have the bone spurs removed from his knee prior to the 2009 season, and thus KG not further damaging the knee by playing on it, there's nothing he could have done.

X's and O's had nothing to do with why those teams didn't win another title. Age and injuries held that group back.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: rondofan1255 on May 06, 2018, 06:16:21 PM
2010
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: OldSchoolDude on May 06, 2018, 06:27:54 PM
I don't think so. The injury to KG cost one title and the injury to Perk cost another.  The only thing that could have made a difference was the Shaq and Jermaine O'Neal signings, which set up the Jeff Green trade, and that wasn't all Doc even if he pushed for it.    Would Brad have ok'd the Melo and Sulenge picks or the JJJ and More picks? Maybe not and maybe that makes a difference.  I think Brad is great but I also think Doc is a really good coach too.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: chiken Green on May 06, 2018, 06:41:14 PM
No..

KG and PP would not have had the same respect for The child coach coming from Butler who had no prior Success in the NBA... Brad came in trying to figure it out.. That would not have gone over well with those Hall of Famers...

The Situation CBS came into was perfect... I think it would have been a totally different situation for him if he had inherited those old heads..

Now that I think of it, I don't think CBS would have found coaching those guys alluring enough to leave Butler...


Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: Beat LA on May 06, 2018, 06:58:01 PM
Unless Stevens could have convinced KG to have the bone spurs removed from his knee prior to the 2009 season, and thus KG not further damaging the knee by playing on it, there's nothing he could have done.

X's and O's had nothing to do with why those teams didn't win another title. Age and injuries held that group back.

Actually, it was that very issue that happened to be the biggest reason as to why they lost in 2010 and beyond, imo. Even during the semifinals against the Cavs in 2008 the "coaching" was atrocious, in my view. I mean, how can anyone not find a way in which to exploit the defensive stalwart that was Wally Szczerbiak? ::) Ugh.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: KGs Knee on May 06, 2018, 07:03:24 PM
Unless Stevens could have convinced KG to have the bone spurs removed from his knee prior to the 2009 season, and thus KG not further damaging the knee by playing on it, there's nothing he could have done.

X's and O's had nothing to do with why those teams didn't win another title. Age and injuries held that group back.

Actually, it was that very issue that happened to be the biggest reason as to why they lost in 2010 and beyond, imo. Even during the semifinals against the Cavs in 2008 the "coaching" was atrocious, in my view. I mean, how can anyone not find a way in which to exploit the defensive stalwart that was Wally Szczerbiak? ::) Ugh.

The bottom line is no amount of coaching could have made up for the injuries to key players that team sustained.

It's just an absurd concept that has no merit. I actually find the idea rather humorous.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: SHAQATTACK on May 06, 2018, 07:23:04 PM
After winning the title , Doc Rivers did the biggest favor he could have ever given Boston .

Packing his bags and leaving....

Just want to say .....

Thank you Glen Rivers for that !

Your my hero for leaving .   ;D
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: nickagneta on May 06, 2018, 07:48:08 PM
Don't see that Stevens would have gotten anything more out of that team than Doc. Doc did a masterful job getting that group of players that never played with each other, to go from a 24 win team to a 66 win team that had one of the best defenses of the last 25 years and win a title first year together. Never been done before. Hasn't been done since. Doc got screwed out of the COY that year.

In 2009, Doc had that team winning at a more impresdive rate than the championship year. The defense was arguably better than the previous year. Then KG went down and that team went about as far as they could.

In 2010, the team went to the Finals and got screwed by the refs. Maybe another coach would have gotten more regular season wins out of the group but they got to game 7 and the refs handed the game to the Lakers in the 4th. Would some other coach have been able to get the refs not to make those calls? No way.

By 2011 and 2012, age took over and the window was closed. I am not convinced that another coach could have gotten more than one championship in that 3 year window and maybe not even one.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: pearljammer10 on May 06, 2018, 08:32:28 PM
Stevens is an amazing coach but I don't think he would have done anything more than what Doc did.

For that veteran team Doc was an incredible, perfect fit and did everything he could, including bringing a championship to Boston.

If Doc was the coach with this current squad however, I don't think we move pass the first round. Stevens is the perfect fir for our current team. Doc could be frustrating at times but I wouldn't have replaced him with anyone else at the time.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: MJohnnyboy on May 06, 2018, 08:38:20 PM
No..

KG and PP would not have had the same respect for The child coach coming from Butler who had no prior Success in the NBA... Brad came in trying to figure it out.. That would not have gone over well with those Hall of Famers...

The Situation CBS came into was perfect... I think it would have been a totally different situation for him if he had inherited those old heads..

Now that I think of it, I don't think CBS would have found coaching those guys alluring enough to leave Butler...

TP. Took the words right out of my mouth. I agree that Brad is a better coach than Doc, but Doc was the perfect coach for the Big 3 era. As others have said, coaching was not the issue in the Big 3 era. Injuries were. Doc had a reputation for being a player's coach, which helped the players respect him in the locker room. I don't think Brad could have done the same.

Dare I say that because of CBS, Doc Rivers' coaching has gotten a little underrated around here?
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: mr. dee on May 06, 2018, 09:12:04 PM
Doc's rotation from 2010 onwards were atrocious. He basically ran his starters to the ground, giving them no rest. If it wasn't for Ray having a bone spur, AB wouldn't see minutes in the rotation. Brad would ask KG to expand his range and we might even see players like Jajuan Johnson and E'Twaun Moore actually contribute to the team.

The way he misused Jason Terry and Darko was really disappointing.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: Eja117 on May 06, 2018, 09:18:23 PM
No..

KG and PP would not have had the same respect for The child coach coming from Butler who had no prior Success in the NBA... Brad came in trying to figure it out.. That would not have gone over well with those Hall of Famers...

The Situation CBS came into was perfect... I think it would have been a totally different situation for him if he had inherited those old heads..

Now that I think of it, I don't think CBS would have found coaching those guys alluring enough to leave Butler...

TP. Took the words right out of my mouth. I agree that Brad is a better coach than Doc, but Doc was the perfect coach for the Big 3 era. As others have said, coaching was not the issue in the Big 3 era. Injuries were. Doc had a reputation for being a player's coach, which helped the players respect him in the locker room. I don't think Brad could have done the same.

Dare I say that because of CBS, Doc Rivers' coaching has gotten a little underrated around here?
Look at how much better Brad has handled injuries than Doc
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: MJohnnyboy on May 06, 2018, 09:37:02 PM
No..

KG and PP would not have had the same respect for The child coach coming from Butler who had no prior Success in the NBA... Brad came in trying to figure it out.. That would not have gone over well with those Hall of Famers...

The Situation CBS came into was perfect... I think it would have been a totally different situation for him if he had inherited those old heads..

Now that I think of it, I don't think CBS would have found coaching those guys alluring enough to leave Butler...

TP. Took the words right out of my mouth. I agree that Brad is a better coach than Doc, but Doc was the perfect coach for the Big 3 era. As others have said, coaching was not the issue in the Big 3 era. Injuries were. Doc had a reputation for being a player's coach, which helped the players respect him in the locker room. I don't think Brad could have done the same.

Dare I say that because of CBS, Doc Rivers' coaching has gotten a little underrated around here?
Look at how much better Brad has handled injuries than Doc

Elaborate if you could.

Also, I said that Brad is better than Doc.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on May 06, 2018, 10:58:49 PM
(https://c.o0bg.com/rf/image_371w/Boston/2011-2020/2012/06/13/BostonGlobe.com/Sports/Images/47554801H7153517.JPG)

I'll NEVER forget that limp, after he landed awkwardly during that game in Utah in 2008-09 season.

THAT costed us more titles.

I'll never get the Doc Rivers hate on here. And folks JUST started warming up to Rajon Rondo after his unwarranted roasting of IT4.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: j804 on May 07, 2018, 12:37:40 AM
(https://c.o0bg.com/rf/image_371w/Boston/2011-2020/2012/06/13/BostonGlobe.com/Sports/Images/47554801H7153517.JPG)

I'll NEVER forget that limp, after he landed awkwardly during that game in Utah in 2008-09 season.

THAT costed us more titles.

I'll never get the Doc Rivers hate on here. And folks JUST started warming up to Rajon Rondo after his unwarranted roasting of IT4.
That was a weird year never got the bottom of it either didn’t they never rule him out? Hiding the injury?
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: TitleMaster on May 07, 2018, 01:49:19 PM

X's and O's had nothing to do with why those teams didn't win another title. Age and injuries held that group back.

Actually, it was that very issue that happened to be the biggest reason as to why they lost in 2010 and beyond, imo. Even during the semifinals against the Cavs in 2008 the "coaching" was atrocious, in my view. I mean, how can anyone not find a way in which to exploit the defensive stalwart that was Wally Szczerbiak? ::) Ugh.

Doc's rotation from 2010 onwards were atrocious. He basically ran his starters to the ground, giving them no rest. If it wasn't for Ray having a bone spur, AB wouldn't see minutes in the rotation. Brad would ask KG to expand his range and we might even see players like Jajuan Johnson and E'Twaun Moore actually contribute to the team.

The way he misused Jason Terry and Darko was really disappointing.

All of the above and he also ran his starters into the ground during the time before 2010, as he never trusted anyone else to hold the lead when they were actually winning games.

Doc got away with it because PP/KG were still below ~33 years old, when it's easier to recover from strenuous games. The regular season games were frustrating to watch, whenever PP/KG would sit down. And Doc clearly had no plans for that day, when the big three would all be 33 & above.

In addition, that legendary 2006 squad had Pierce play for only ~47 games. In other words, it was a franchise player injury year where they were waiting for the lottery than in chasing for a playoff spot. Going from that 24 win flop to a greater than 55+ win season with a stacked roster is something that even a moron like Stan Van Gundy could pull off.

And speaking of Pierce, does Stevens have anyone on his current roster, at Paul Pierce's 30 year old ability? And I'm not talking about having PP/KG together but PP alone?





Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: Big333223 on May 07, 2018, 02:14:44 PM
Can Bad Stevens win a championship in reality before we start retroactively assigning him championships for teams he never coached?
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: BitterJim on May 07, 2018, 03:17:12 PM
Doc's rotation from 2010 onwards were atrocious. He basically ran his starters to the ground, giving them no rest. If it wasn't for Ray having a bone spur, AB wouldn't see minutes in the rotation. Brad would ask KG to expand his range and we might even see players like Jajuan Johnson and E'Twaun Moore actually contribute to the team.

The way he misused Jason Terry and Darko was really disappointing.

Is there a proper way to use Darko?

(Besides just keeping him on the bench/off the team)
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on May 07, 2018, 03:20:54 PM
Doc's rotation from 2010 onwards were atrocious. He basically ran his starters to the ground, giving them no rest. If it wasn't for Ray having a bone spur, AB wouldn't see minutes in the rotation. Brad would ask KG to expand his range and we might even see players like Jajuan Johnson and E'Twaun Moore actually contribute to the team.

The way he misused Jason Terry and Darko was really disappointing.

Is there a proper way to use Darko?

(Besides just keeping him on the bench/off the team)

Darko was going to be good for us that year, throughout his career his defense was underrated. He had a very good pre-season for us. We really needed what he was bringing.

Then whatever happened happened.

His TO are a concerned though.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: Tr1boy on May 07, 2018, 03:22:05 PM
true story
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: Donoghus on May 07, 2018, 03:28:50 PM
Bad luck with injuries and the rise of Lebron James is what kept the Celtics from winning more titles during that era.  Not coaching.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: Diggles on May 07, 2018, 03:47:28 PM
We will never know.....    Lots of what ifs..... 

Give me a healthy KG over Brad Stevens in 2010.   
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: Roy H. on May 07, 2018, 03:56:54 PM
What championship would we have won besides 2008, whether the coach be Doc, Stevens, Pop, Jackson, or Red himself?

KG's injury and Perk's injury sunk our chances.  I think Stevens might have been able to get more out of guys like Marquis Daniels for awhile, but he's no better than Doc at avoiding player injury, so what would it matter?

I think if we made the replacement, we end up with one or zero titles.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: celts10 on May 07, 2018, 04:21:06 PM
KG and PP would not have had the same respect for The child coach coming from Butler who had no prior Success in the NBA

Exactly. We could have replaced Doc Rivers but it would have had to be with an established pro-level coach who could immediately gain the respect of the veterans. Someone like a Flip Saunders, for instance.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: OldSchoolDude on May 07, 2018, 05:32:50 PM

X's and O's had nothing to do with why those teams didn't win another title. Age and injuries held that group back.

Actually, it was that very issue that happened to be the biggest reason as to why they lost in 2010 and beyond, imo. Even during the semifinals against the Cavs in 2008 the "coaching" was atrocious, in my view. I mean, how can anyone not find a way in which to exploit the defensive stalwart that was Wally Szczerbiak? ::) Ugh.

Doc's rotation from 2010 onwards were atrocious. He basically ran his starters to the ground, giving them no rest. If it wasn't for Ray having a bone spur, AB wouldn't see minutes in the rotation. Brad would ask KG to expand his range and we might even see players like Jajuan Johnson and E'Twaun Moore actually contribute to the team.

The way he misused Jason Terry and Darko was really disappointing.

All of the above and he also ran his starters into the ground during the time before 2010, as he never trusted anyone else to hold the lead when they were actually winning games.

Doc got away with it because PP/KG were still below ~33 years old, when it's easier to recover from strenuous games. The regular season games were frustrating to watch, whenever PP/KG would sit down. And Doc clearly had no plans for that day, when the big three would all be 33 & above.

In addition, that legendary 2006 squad had Pierce play for only ~47 games. In other words, it was a franchise player injury year where they were waiting for the lottery than in chasing for a playoff spot. Going from that 24 win flop to a greater than 55+ win season with a stacked roster is something that even a moron like Stan Van Gundy could pull off.

And speaking of Pierce, does Stevens have anyone on his current roster, at Paul Pierce's 30 year old ability? And I'm not talking about having PP/KG together but PP alone?

Doc had to lean so hard on the starters because they had so much money tied up in the starters they couldn’t afford a quality bench and they messed up in the draft so they didn’t have good players on rookie deals.  In that last game 7 loss to Miami we only got 3 points from the bench.   Bradley had gone down with a shoulder injury and Allen went back to the starting lineup.  We had no scoring on the bench and no size to back up KG.  When we won the title we got points off the bench and our backups could hold their own defensively.   The inability to field a deep team forced Danny into more cap friendly deals and he was eventually able to put us in a position to be able to pay Horford, Hayward and Irving, while drafting quality backups on teem friendly rookie deals.
So they win in 2008 but then the draft misses begin.  Maybe Stevens would have helped make better choices.  Danny said that he listens to the scouts and the coach before he make his choice.
2008 they picked JR Giddens # 30 but should have picked DeAndre Jordan who went #35 or even Nikola Pekovic who went #30
2009 no 1st and they don’t pick until 58h in round 2, really nothing you can do there. 
2010 Danny picked Avery Bradley at # 19 which was a solid pick, his outstanding defense and improving shot pushed Ray Allen to the bench his second year.  There wasn’t anyone good [picked after their second round pick so that was a good draft.  The only player that might have been a better pick than Bradley was Lance Stephenson who went # 40, but he’s been great and not so good so far.  The Stephenson on the first pass through Indian would have been better than Bradley.
2011 Given our draft slot and team needs I was acutely hopping for JaJuan Johnson wow what did I know.   We took Marshon Brooks # 26 then worked a trade to get JJJ at 27.  The clear miss in that draft was Jimmy Butler who went # 30.  Also instead of taking E'twaun Moore at 55 we could have gotten IT at 60.
2012 This was a draft that I thought was really going to help us win now and set us up for the future.  Before draft night like many others I was hoping for Fab Melo, but I was also hoping for Draymond Green.  Coach Izzo had said that he was the best player he had ever coached and that plus his outstanding college play was enough for me.    So it seems that Green should have been one of the picks but it’s hard to pick against Melo unless you use hindsight.   Melo really looked great in college especially given his limited time playing Basketball.   Maybe if he had passed his classes he would have been exposed in the tournament but if you are truly honest he looked like a serviceable rim protector at worst to a super star at best.  The only other choice for a center at that point in the draft would have been Festus Ezeli, who would have been better than Melo but Melo looked so much better than him in college.
2013 This was the KO trade up.  I was hoping for Steven Adams to fall to us but when we got KO I was loving it.   I’m actually a fan of Gonzaga and thought KO was going to be a star.   Sure the clear miss was on Giannis Adetokoubo who went two picks latter, `but even if I didn’t pick KO I probably would have taken Shabazz Muhammad before Giannis.  Looking back its easy to say they messed that draft up but Olynyk looked like the real deal and NBA ready while Giannis and Gobert were clearly going to need time.  We were in a serious win now mode and didn’t have time to develop a player. 
Once Rondo went down the 2013 season it was all over and we needed to move to rebuild mode.  Then came the Doc to LA and the Brooklyn trade.   Boston did try to make one more move to get DeAndre Jordan before that but there were issues with that and it broke down. 
We have two rookies in Jayson Tatum and Semi Ojeleye, as well as a second and third year players in Brown and Rozier playing a big part of why we are wining.  If the Cs had drafted differently I believe Doc could have coached them to a few more titles but at the time of the picks they really didn’t look bad.   The only difference if I was involved in the picks would have been me picking Pekovic in 08 and probably blowing the Avery Bradley pick in 2010.


Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on May 07, 2018, 05:42:11 PM
Maybe. I never thought coaching was the issue. It was more of unfortunate luck of injuries and some other things .


At the time doc rivers was highly respected around the league. We traded doc for a 1st round pick. No other coach that I can remember was ever traded like that

injury in 09? yes. 2010? nah. perk getting hurt did not ruin the series. the refs screwed us and docs rotations were terrible in game 7 and with all that we still had a 12 point lead we blew in the 4th that game. we still shoulda won. biggest two reasons were refs and doc not perk.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: tenn_smoothie on July 29, 2018, 05:31:51 PM
What championship would we have won besides 2008, whether the coach be Doc, Stevens, Pop, Jackson, or Red himself?



2011

IF Danny Boy had not traded Kendrick Perkins, we were headed to the Finals and would have beaten Dallas. That team was healthy and beyond motivated from the sting of 2010.
I will never forgive Danny for that stupid trade. He thought we needed to become more athletic to keep up with LeBron & Co. when the truth was we had the only antidote in the league back then because of our power on the inside and our toughness, physically and mentally.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: Moranis on July 31, 2018, 11:47:44 AM
I don't know if Boston would have won the title in 2009, but I absolutely believe that Stevens could have made the difference in the semi-final 7 game loss to the Magic in which Boston got blown out at home in game 7 because it had no answer for Turkoglu and Pietrus.  That's right Turkoglu and Pietrus destroyed the Celtics.  Not sure that Boston squad would have beaten the Cavs or Lakers without Garnett, but it should have absolutely gotten by the Magic. 

I think Stevens absolutely coaches Boston to victory in 2010 against the Lakers (another 7 game series loss).  After that Boston was basically done as a contender, but I think the team would have been closer with Stevens.

the only real question is, would Boston have still won the 2008 title with Stevens instead of Rivers, and that is a difficult question to answer.  Is Stevens a 1st time head coach or does he have experience?  Would PP, KG, and Ray have all bought into Stevens system that 1st season?  Would they have still been the 1 seed or would the Pistons have caught them as a result of more growing pains earlier in the year?  All interesting questions.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: Donoghus on July 31, 2018, 11:52:58 AM
Boston would've gotten lit up by CLE in the conference finals if they had gotten by ORL.  They were ill equipped to match up with CLE that year without KG. The Cavs would've been rough matchup for that Celtics squad.

 The funny thing was that the Cavs were ill-equipped to matchup with ORL that year and it was illustrated in the '09 ECF.   The Magic winning that Game 7 in Boston cost NBA fans a chance of a Kobe/Lebron Finals, IMO.

Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: fairweatherfan on July 31, 2018, 12:11:31 PM
What championship would we have won besides 2008, whether the coach be Doc, Stevens, Pop, Jackson, or Red himself?



2011

IF Danny Boy had not traded Kendrick Perkins, we were headed to the Finals and would have beaten Dallas. That team was healthy and beyond motivated from the sting of 2010.
I will never forgive Danny for that stupid trade. He thought we needed to become more athletic to keep up with LeBron & Co. when the truth was we had the only antidote in the league back then because of our power on the inside and our toughness, physically and mentally.

This narrative may never die but neither will the reality that Perkins was a shadow of his former self in those playoffs and the rest of his career, we had basically no reserve wings after Marquis Daniels went down with a scary injury, and we fell 11 playoff wins short of a title.  Also unclear how Brad or any other coach would've prevented a trade that came from Danny.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: Moranis on July 31, 2018, 12:17:11 PM
Boston would've gotten lit up by CLE in the conference finals if they had gotten by ORL.  They were ill equipped to match up with CLE that year without KG. The Cavs would've been rough matchup for that Celtics squad.

 The funny thing was that the Cavs were ill-equipped to matchup with ORL that year and it was illustrated in the '09 ECF.   The Magic winning that Game 7 in Boston cost NBA fans a chance of a Kobe/Lebron Finals, IMO.
I'm not really sure that is the case.  The Cavs were never an interior oriented team.  I would have expected them to win because of Lebron, but I don't think Boston would have been lit up without KG, as Boston still would have had the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best player in that series.  That Cavs team was pretty bad outside of James with Mo Williams or Big Z as their 2nd best player.  Varejao and Delonte West were starting.  The bench was Boobie Gibson and a bunch of old men (Joe Smith, Big Ben, and old friend Wally).  I think Stevens could have found a way to shut everyone down that wasn't Lebron and made it a hell of a series. 
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: colincb on July 31, 2018, 12:23:10 PM
I'll take CBS over Doc, but I don't think he overcomes key injuries at inopportune times. Not sure Doc wasn't the best coach for that group of personalities either.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: saltlover on July 31, 2018, 12:30:56 PM
I'll take CBS over Doc, but I don't think he overcomes key injuries at inopportune times. Not sure Doc wasn't the best coach for that group of personalities either.

It’s obviously impossible to say what would have happened.  The Celtics were up 13 with barely over 20 minutes to go.  You’d think coaching wouldn’t be the X Factor on a team with three veteran Hall of Famers as the core, who had already won a title with each other.  Could Brad have done something different?  Perhaps.  But ultimately it’s the people on the court, and that includes the refs, who decide things when it’s that big of a swing. 
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: slamtheking on July 31, 2018, 12:40:02 PM
I'll take CBS over Doc, but I don't think he overcomes key injuries at inopportune times. Not sure Doc wasn't the best coach for that group of personalities either.

It’s obviously impossible to say what would have happened.  The Celtics were up 13 with barely over 20 minutes to go.  You’d think coaching wouldn’t be the X Factor on a team with three veteran Hall of Famers as the core, who had already won a title with each other.  Could Brad have done something different?  Perhaps.  But ultimately it’s the people on the court, and that includes the refs, who decide things when it’s that big of a swing. 
you would hope not but it's possible Stevens figures out a way to keep those 3 and Sheed from getting gassed down the stretch so that KG and Sheed aren't too tired to keep the Lakers off the offensive boards. 
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: IDreamCeltics on July 31, 2018, 12:41:44 PM
What championship would we have won besides 2008, whether the coach be Doc, Stevens, Pop, Jackson, or Red himself?



2011

IF Danny Boy had not traded Kendrick Perkins, we were headed to the Finals and would have beaten Dallas. That team was healthy and beyond motivated from the sting of 2010.
I will never forgive Danny for that stupid trade. He thought we needed to become more athletic to keep up with LeBron & Co. when the truth was we had the only antidote in the league back then because of our power on the inside and our toughness, physically and mentally.

Agreed, that will go down in history as a "benching healthy Malcolm Butler for the Superbowl" level bad decision.

Food for thought, CBS has never won a championship on any level... Do we really know he's better than Mike Dantoni?
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: saltlover on July 31, 2018, 01:01:19 PM
What championship would we have won besides 2008, whether the coach be Doc, Stevens, Pop, Jackson, or Red himself?



2011

IF Danny Boy had not traded Kendrick Perkins, we were headed to the Finals and would have beaten Dallas. That team was healthy and beyond motivated from the sting of 2010.
I will never forgive Danny for that stupid trade. He thought we needed to become more athletic to keep up with LeBron & Co. when the truth was we had the only antidote in the league back then because of our power on the inside and our toughness, physically and mentally.

Agreed, that will go down in history as a "benching healthy Malcolm Butler for the Superbowl" level bad decision.

Food for thought, CBS has never won a championship on any level... Do we really know he's better than Mike Dantoni?

Fairly certain D’Antoni won a couple of Italian League titles.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: mmmmm on July 31, 2018, 01:05:56 PM
Can Bad Stevens win a championship in reality before we start retroactively assigning him championships for teams he never coached?

TP
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: mmmmm on July 31, 2018, 01:21:21 PM
What championship would we have won besides 2008, whether the coach be Doc, Stevens, Pop, Jackson, or Red himself?



2011

IF Danny Boy had not traded Kendrick Perkins, we were headed to the Finals and would have beaten Dallas. That team was healthy and beyond motivated from the sting of 2010.
I will never forgive Danny for that stupid trade. He thought we needed to become more athletic to keep up with LeBron & Co. when the truth was we had the only antidote in the league back then because of our power on the inside and our toughness, physically and mentally.

That team was most definitely NOT healthy.

At the time of the trade, Perkins, Shaq, Jermaine, Semih, Nate and Marquis were ALL injured.   In particular, we had exactly ZERO healthy centers and Marquis Daniels was lost for the season.

The trade gave us a healthy center and a health backup SF in exchange for two players (Perkins, Nate) who barely played a tiny handful of minutes the rest of the season.   Without doing the trade we were looking at having to play a D-League call-up as our center and no rest for Pierce.

By the time the playoffs rolled around, Jermaine got healthy enough to play some, and was actually pretty decent, but Shaq never was able to play more than a few minutes and never at the level he did in the Fall (when the 5-man starting unit of Rondo+Ray+Pierce+KG+Shaq was just dominant).   And that, more than anything, doomed that team.   

And then some out-of-character outside shooting by Lebron and Wade, plus Wade doing a number on Rondo's elbow just stuck the dagger in.

But I suppose those last things were Doc Rivers' fault as well?
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: Kuberski33 on July 31, 2018, 02:47:30 PM
Interesting question.  My first reaction was yes, because CBS would  have found a way to make the bench stronger - especially in the post-Posey years.  Doc has never been accused of being a good developmental coach and several players brought in while he was coaching never were able to contribute consistently.

At the same time, Doc actually played in the league and I think that earned him the kind of cred necessary to coach a team with KG, Pierce, Ray Allen and even Rondo on it.  Brad may have struggled to win that first one even.  They'd have won in 08-09 if KG hadn't gotten hurt and Danny dumping Tony Allen hurt subsequent teams.  Doc probably should have won 2 and possibly 3 titles with those teams and the two that had chances - but didn't - weren't his fault.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: konkmv on July 31, 2018, 02:53:22 PM
Brad is a better coach... probably would have won 1 more
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: SparzWizard on July 31, 2018, 02:55:42 PM
We would've won for sure in 2012. Up 3-2 after Paul Pierce's classic "in-your-face" 3-pointer against LeBron James at American Airlines Arena (as my sig below is stated), the Celtics could have taken care of business in Game 6 with Brad Stevens.

If not, CBS would have adjusted hard for Game 7. Then this old-washed up Celtics team would have given Durant/Westbrook/Harden some fits in the Finals.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: RockinRyA on August 30, 2018, 02:47:59 AM
What championship would we have won besides 2008, whether the coach be Doc, Stevens, Pop, Jackson, or Red himself?



2011

IF Danny Boy had not traded Kendrick Perkins, we were headed to the Finals and would have beaten Dallas. That team was healthy and beyond motivated from the sting of 2010.
I will never forgive Danny for that stupid trade. He thought we needed to become more athletic to keep up with LeBron & Co. when the truth was we had the only antidote in the league back then because of our power on the inside and our toughness, physically and mentally.

No. A hobbled Perkins wouldn't win us that year. What we needed was a healthy Shaq. We were dominant with Shaq playing and Perk injured. Perkins was half the player he was after his injury. Fans have been ignoring it, but if you watch carefully, Perk's mobility wasn't the same. I myself had been in denial at that time. but even with his improved physique you can see the difference.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: Ogaju on August 30, 2018, 04:53:33 AM
Maybe. I never thought coaching was the issue. It was more of unfortunate luck of injuries and some other things .


At the time doc rivers was highly respected around the league. We traded doc for a 1st round pick. No other coach that I can remember was ever traded like that

That is more of a testament to Danny's brilliance and Clippers stupidity than anything else.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: SHAQATTACK on August 30, 2018, 10:09:20 AM
Doc is a celebrity media styled coach of egos. Not a coach in the traditional sense. 

His own ego , gets in his way more than any lackk of court coaching skill.  KG and PP managed to win anyway.

now that CBs has some experience, i think he could have done as well during those years of KG.
Title: Re: If it were Stevens (not D. Rivers), the KG/PP era would have had more titles!
Post by: Ogaju on August 30, 2018, 02:31:27 PM
why is this thread in Celtics History. Who exactly is the Celtic great we are discussing here. Surely cannot be Rivers.