NBA First Team: Tatum or Edwards?

[scaryjerry]

I’m somewhat of a casual fan of Edwards as far as non Celtics go but he’s starting to get slightly overrated if this is the narrative. He’s more comparable to Brown than Tatum.

[Vermont Green]

I agree that the first team is clear, no over-thinking required.  SGA, Luka, Tatum, Giannis, Jokic.  Second and Third teams are less clear. Scoring seems to be valued over defense and rebounding. Brown probably loses out and White has no chance at all. 

[Neurotic Guy]

JBs growth/effort defensively was impressive especially over the second half of the year.

[bdm860]

I can't imagine there is any real discussion on anyone other than Luka, SGA, Tatum, Giannis, and Jokic as the 1st team.  May be the easiest decision ever.

What is "real discussion"?  as mentioned, actual voters are leaving Tatum off of their ballot, or saying that it's razor thin right now.

I think it is more talking points at this point of the season.  I mean if you are trying to discuss the All NBA teams it is pretty boring without adding in some intrigue or controversy. At the end of the day, I'd be surprised if more than a few people had anyone other than those 5.

NBA.com had an article today with 5 writers listing out their All-NBA teams (and 4 of these guys were actual voters last year).  All 5 had Luka, SGA, Tatum, Giannis, Jokic on their 1st team.

Only one writer (Schuhmann) said there was a tough 1st team decision, and it was between Tatum/Durant.

[Who]

How about Jalen Brunson for 1st team All-NBA?

[Moranis]

I think you'd have a stronger argument for top 5 MVP than you would for 1st Team All NBA with Brunson.

[A Future of Stevens]

I think you'd have a stronger argument for top 5 MVP than you would for 1st Team All NBA with Brunson.

It seems crazy, but I agree 100% with that. Brunson is having an IT4 prime season for the Knicks with a lot of injuries. Not a top 5 player in the NBA, but definitely having a top 5 most important season for HIS team.

[Vermont Green]

I think you'd have a stronger argument for top 5 MVP than you would for 1st Team All NBA with Brunson.

It seems crazy, but I agree 100% with that. Brunson is having an IT4 prime season for the Knicks with a lot of injuries. Not a top 5 player in the NBA, but definitely having a top 5 most important season for HIS team.

Just for reference, IT was 5th in MVP voting that season (2016-17), behind Westbrook, Harden, Leonard, James.  There was a big gap in MVP points between 5th (81) and 4th (333).  IT was second team All NBA that season, the first team guards were Westbrook and Harden.

[Vermont Green]

I read something interesting regarding MVP voting vs. All NBA voting.  At some level, with All NBA being position-less, the top 15 in the MVP voting should be the same as the top 15 in All NBA voting.  But it won't work out quite that way.  If you pick your top 5 for All NBA, they all get the same points.  #1 and #5 would get the same points.  But for MVP, your #1 will get more points than your #5.

I am not sure how this will end up in terms of favoring one player or another, but it is interesting to consider.  Why not just have the top 15 in the MVP voting be the All NBA teams?  How different will the votes end up being?  Is it possible that a player is more deserving of MVP but less deserving of All NBA (or the other way around)?  I guess it is the age old best vs. most valuable debate.

My guess is that the two votes end up very close if not exactly the same.

[Moranis]

I read something interesting regarding MVP voting vs. All NBA voting.  At some level, with All NBA being position-less, the top 15 in the MVP voting should be the same as the top 15 in All NBA voting.  But it won't work out quite that way.  If you pick your top 5 for All NBA, they all get the same points.  #1 and #5 would get the same points.  But for MVP, your #1 will get more points than your #5.

I am not sure how this will end up in terms of favoring one player or another, but it is interesting to consider.  Why not just have the top 15 in the MVP voting be the All NBA teams?  How different will the votes end up being?  Is it possible that a player is more deserving of MVP but less deserving of All NBA (or the other way around)?  I guess it is the age old best vs. most valuable debate.

My guess is that the two votes end up very close if not exactly the same.

They will usually be pretty similar because the best players are the ones which are the most valuable, which often shows up in the stat lines, but they are not the same.  I was being serious about Brunson being a top 5 MVP candidate but not on the 1st Team All NBA.  I think there is at least a non-zero chance Brunson does end up ahead of Tatum in MVP voting, but I'd be stunned if Brunson made the 1st Team ahead of Tatum (or any of the other 4 guys). 

That said, Bontemps released his final MVP straw poll today and Brunson wasn't all that close to Tatum.

https://africa.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/39861520/nba-mvp-straw-poll-where-jokic-luka-sga-other-contenders-stand-our-final-vote-2023-24

ESPN NBA MVP Straw Poll: Final Results
PLAYER   TEAM   1ST   2ND   3RD   4TH   5TH   TOTAL
VOTES   TOTAL
POINTS
1   Nikola Jokic   DEN   85   14   1   0   0   100   953
2   Shai Gilgeous-Alexander   OKC   10   45   39   5   1   100   626
3   Luka Doncic   DAL   1   31   43   15   6   96   493
4   Giannis Antetokounmpo   MIL   2   8   13   62   7   92   334
5   Jayson Tatum   BOS   2   1   1   11   54   69   119
6   Jalen Brunson   NY   0   0   3   2   19   24   40
7   Anthony Edwards   MIN   0   1   0   5   5   11   27
8   Kawhi Leonard   LAC   0   0   0   0   4   4   4
9   Domantas Sabonis   SAC   0   0   0   0   3   3   3
10   Jaylen Brown   BOS   0   0   0   0   1   1   1

[RodyTur10]

I don't want to assign awards and selections primarily based on "record". In that way you could advocate for Tatum to receive the MVP-award as the best player on the team with by far the best record. That would be "logical". But it would be unfair to Jokic and Doncic (and SGA and Giannis) who have been much better.

But a funny exercise to create the All NBA teams based on records. Boston gets 3 (Tatum, White, Brown). OKC (SGA, Holmgren), Denver (Jokic, Gordon), M'sota 2 (Edwards, Gobert). Milwaukee (Antetokounmpo), Clippers (Leonard) 1. And four players from teams with 40-45 wins, with a maximum of one per team: Dallas (Doncic), New York (Brunson), Phoenix (Durant), Indiana (Haliburton).

First team: SGA/Doncic/Tatum/Antetokounmpo/Jokic
Second team: Brunson/Edwards/Leonard/Durant/Gobert
Third team: Haliburton/White/Brown/Gordon/Holmgren

Following the previous exercise and making it really strict, there's one change where Indiana (Haliburton) 47 wins loses a spot to New Orleans (Williamson) 49 wins.

First team: SGA/Doncic/Tatum/Antetokounmpo/Jokic
Second team: Brunson/Edwards/Leonard/Durant/Gobert
Third team: White/Brown/Williamson/Gordon/Holmgren

[droopdog7]

The real debate I have seen is between Tatum and Brunson.  While I think JT gets it, I would not be surprised if Brunson got the nod.

[jpotter33]

The real debate I have seen is between Tatum and Brunson.  While I think JT gets it, I would not be surprised if Brunson got the nod.

Yep. You can track it here.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KMzwRcilLDej0BWl7eYE_OYC9Tx9olI_Ptn-nHjKfpQ/htmlview#

Tatum has 6 of the first 7 votes for All-NBA 1st Team that have been recorded thus far, with Brunson having 2 of 7. Astonishingly, Perkins had both Tatum and Brunson on there with Giannis left off.

[Who]

The real debate I have seen is between Tatum and Brunson.  While I think JT gets it, I would not be surprised if Brunson got the nod.

Yep. You can track it here.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KMzwRcilLDej0BWl7eYE_OYC9Tx9olI_Ptn-nHjKfpQ/htmlview#

Tatum has 6 of the first 7 votes for All-NBA 1st Team that have been recorded thus far, with Brunson having 2 of 7. Astonishingly, Perkins had both Tatum and Brunson on there with Giannis left off.

That is what I want.

Giannis doesn't deserve First Team All-NBA. His team has been too bad. He has Damian Lillard next to him. Who has Brunson got? Randle who has missed half of a season. Anunoby / RJ Barret who missed half a season. Brunson deserves it over Giannis. Heck, NY even finished 2nd in the East over Milwaukee.

[keevsnick]

The real debate I have seen is between Tatum and Brunson.  While I think JT gets it, I would not be surprised if Brunson got the nod.

Yep. You can track it here.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KMzwRcilLDej0BWl7eYE_OYC9Tx9olI_Ptn-nHjKfpQ/htmlview#

Tatum has 6 of the first 7 votes for All-NBA 1st Team that have been recorded thus far, with Brunson having 2 of 7. Astonishingly, Perkins had both Tatum and Brunson on there with Giannis left off.

That is what I want.

Giannis doesn't deserve First Team All-NBA. His team has been too bad. He has Damian Lillard next to him. Who has Brunson got? Randle who has missed half of a season. Anunoby / RJ Barret who missed half a season. Brunson deserves it over Giannis. Heck, NY even finished 2nd in the East over Milwaukee.

The Knicks finished exactly one game ahead of the Bucks. Giannis finished ahead of Brunson in EPM, BPM, win shares/48 and is a dramatically better defender. I don't really see much of an argument that Brunson should be in over Giannis.

Brunson/Tatum is debatable, but i think being on a 64 win team is a good tiebreaker.