Author Topic: Jaylen and Jayson lack of assists  (Read 8046 times)

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Re: Jaylen and Jayson lack of assists
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2020, 09:13:08 PM »

Offline td450

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Jaylen and Jayson are two pretty different situations.

Tatum is a primary ball handler. It's pretty clear the team does not want Brown as a decision maker, and kind of remarkable he finds a way to average over 20 ppg.


Re: Jaylen and Jayson lack of assists
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2020, 10:21:40 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Jaylen and Jayson are two pretty different situations.

Tatum is a primary ball handler. It's pretty clear the team does not want Brown as a decision maker, and kind of remarkable he finds a way to average over 20 ppg.

Jaylen is averaging a phenomenal .413 points per touch of the ball.  That's 6th in the entire NBA among players with at least 2000 touches.   He's right behind Harden (.415 pts/touch).   Of course, Harden averages about twice as many touches per game so his per-game counting stats look much more impressive.   But it give you an idea of just how efficient Jaylen has been this year with his opportunities.

No other Celtic is averaging above .400.  Among the rotation players, Jayson is 2nd at .339 points per touch.
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Re: Jaylen and Jayson lack of assists
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2020, 10:41:33 PM »

Offline ozgod

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Right now Jaylen and Jayson are scorers. Even in college they weren't really passers. They're not going to all of a sudden turn into versions of Gordon Hayward. Comparing their current years to Hayward, LeBum and Kobe (since someone mentioned Kobe)'s 4th year in the league those you can see that Gordon and LeBum have much more of a playmaker's instinct, with 20%+ assist %age. As for Kobe, he had Shaq to pass the ball to.



BUT...what I think the OP is referring to, and what I think the next evolution for the Jays is, is to be able to be much better at driving and kicking. That's really where a lot of Hayward, and LeBum's, assists come from, from driving, attracting attention or drawing a double, and then kicking to an open player. Both Jays are more than capable of doing that. The challenge is knowing when to do it, where the opening will be, and to then deliver the pass correctly once they draw the defense.

Right now both Jays are still primarily score-first players. But I think they can get there. This isn't NBA2k where you can just dial up their assist attribute...it's just real game experiences where they will/should eventually figure it out. If they don't then yes they will be ultimately limited. But they've got time and the right coach to figure it out.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 12:27:17 AM by ozgod »
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: Jaylen and Jayson lack of assists
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2020, 11:14:20 PM »

Offline Somebody

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Ignoring the dig on stevens, the play making question is an important one.  Tatum in particular may might be such a good scorer that one can add less weight to the low assist numbers.  Bu even Kobe reached five and six assists at this peak.  If Tatum doesn't round his game out a little more he'll be in the Carmelo category.  A fine, fine player but one that doesn't improve his teammates.

Jaylen I worry about less, mostly because he doesn't have the same level of talent and he doesn't hold the ball.  He makes quick decisions and generally has good results.
The bolded can also be used to describe prime Michael Jordan :laugh:, Jaylen has great potential (obviously not prime MJ, but I wouldn't be surprised if he makes the leap as well).
At his peak MJ averaged between 6-8 assists per year.
As the offensive engine of the team. Jaylen and Tatum will never get the kind of primacy Jordan had as long as they're playing on the Celtics.
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Re: Jaylen and Jayson lack of assists
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2020, 11:16:58 PM »

Offline Somebody

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Ignoring the dig on stevens, the play making question is an important one.  Tatum in particular may might be such a good scorer that one can add less weight to the low assist numbers.  Bu even Kobe reached five and six assists at this peak.  If Tatum doesn't round his game out a little more he'll be in the Carmelo category.  A fine, fine player but one that doesn't improve his teammates.

Jaylen I worry about less, mostly because he doesn't have the same level of talent and he doesn't hold the ball.  He makes quick decisions and generally has good results.
The bolded can also be used to describe prime Michael Jordan :laugh:, Jaylen has great potential (obviously not prime MJ, but I wouldn't be surprised if he makes the leap as well).
Jaylen grows his game every year. I expect leaps in different areas of his game, passing be the prime skill. I expect the same from Jayson.

Thing is, as long as this top 5 is together, I don't see major leaps in assists from the Jay's. Kemba, Gordon and Smart all average around 5 assists a game. If their assist totals don't decline, how much higher can the Jay's numbers get?

With this group, which could be together for years, maybe all of the top five players averaging between 4-5 assists each is the best we can expect.
I don't even care about the assist numbers too much (they aren't a good measurement of passing ability), as long as Jaylen and Tatum are able to make the right pass to punish double teams and collapsing defences I'll be pretty happy, and anything more than that is gravy.
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Re: Jaylen and Jayson lack of assists
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2020, 11:19:48 PM »

Offline Somebody

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I'm not sure the lack of passing is on Stevens, I think it's more of a maturity thing. 

I've heard it said on this very site that, "assists are over-rated?" :angel:

Yeah, like I said, IMO its a maturity thing.

Tatum is like a kid with the keys to a new car, its like he now belongs to the cool kids club, he's an all-star.

What will he end up is the question, a James Harden type? Or a Kevin Garnet type? Somewhere along the line hopefully he'll figure out that the way you win a ring is by getting the entire team involved. 

That's called Celtic basketball. Right now, yeah he needs to look the floor over before he makes up his mind to go one on one.
Yes, assists are overrated. Not all assists are created equally and great passes might not result in assists.
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Re: Jaylen and Jayson lack of assists
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2020, 11:23:13 PM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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It's not a coaching problem, it's just who they are as players right now. They don't have the playmaking skills, yet. Maybe they will develop it in time, maybe they don't, but I don't think its a big concern for both.
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Re: Jaylen and Jayson lack of assists
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2020, 11:43:50 PM »

Offline RockinRyA

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I'm not sure the lack of passing is on Stevens, I think it's more of a maturity thing. 

I've heard it said on this very site that, "assists are over-rated?" :angel:

Yeah, like I said, IMO its a maturity thing.

Tatum is like a kid with the keys to a new car, its like he now belongs to the cool kids club, he's an all-star.

What will he end up is the question, a James Harden type? Or a Kevin Garnet type? Somewhere along the line hopefully he'll figure out that the way you win a ring is by getting the entire team involved. 

That's called Celtic basketball. Right now, yeah he needs to look the floor over before he makes up his mind to go one on one.
Yes, assists are overrated. Not all assists are created equally and great passes might not result in assists.

Nick Van Exel is a good example. A ballhog with good assist numbers.

Re: Jaylen and Jayson lack of assists
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2020, 02:03:08 AM »

Offline Somebody

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I'm not sure the lack of passing is on Stevens, I think it's more of a maturity thing. 

I've heard it said on this very site that, "assists are over-rated?" :angel:

Yeah, like I said, IMO its a maturity thing.

Tatum is like a kid with the keys to a new car, its like he now belongs to the cool kids club, he's an all-star.

What will he end up is the question, a James Harden type? Or a Kevin Garnet type? Somewhere along the line hopefully he'll figure out that the way you win a ring is by getting the entire team involved. 

That's called Celtic basketball. Right now, yeah he needs to look the floor over before he makes up his mind to go one on one.
Yes, assists are overrated. Not all assists are created equally and great passes might not result in assists.

Nick Van Exel is a good example. A ballhog with good assist numbers.
Another excellent example is John Stockton. His inability to pressure defences with his scoring as well as his conservative passing in general (he's more Rondo than say Nash or Magic in this regard) makes his assist numbers look significantly better than his actual passing prowess.
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: Jaylen and Jayson lack of assists
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2020, 06:57:24 AM »

Offline moiso

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I'm not sure the lack of passing is on Stevens, I think it's more of a maturity thing. 

I've heard it said on this very site that, "assists are over-rated?" :angel:

Yeah, like I said, IMO its a maturity thing.

Tatum is like a kid with the keys to a new car, its like he now belongs to the cool kids club, he's an all-star.

What will he end up is the question, a James Harden type? Or a Kevin Garnet type? Somewhere along the line hopefully he'll figure out that the way you win a ring is by getting the entire team involved. 

That's called Celtic basketball. Right now, yeah he needs to look the floor over before he makes up his mind to go one on one.
Yes, assists are overrated. Not all assists are created equally and great passes might not result in assists.

Nick Van Exel is a good example. A ballhog with good assist numbers.
Another excellent example is John Stockton. His inability to pressure defences with his scoring as well as his conservative passing in general (he's more Rondo than say Nash or Magic in this regard) makes his assist numbers look significantly better than his actual passing prowess.
So you are saying fancy passers are better?  You must love Smart this year.

Re: Jaylen and Jayson lack of assists
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2020, 07:54:15 AM »

Offline Somebody

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I'm not sure the lack of passing is on Stevens, I think it's more of a maturity thing. 

I've heard it said on this very site that, "assists are over-rated?" :angel:

Yeah, like I said, IMO its a maturity thing.

Tatum is like a kid with the keys to a new car, its like he now belongs to the cool kids club, he's an all-star.

What will he end up is the question, a James Harden type? Or a Kevin Garnet type? Somewhere along the line hopefully he'll figure out that the way you win a ring is by getting the entire team involved. 

That's called Celtic basketball. Right now, yeah he needs to look the floor over before he makes up his mind to go one on one.
Yes, assists are overrated. Not all assists are created equally and great passes might not result in assists.

Nick Van Exel is a good example. A ballhog with good assist numbers.
Another excellent example is John Stockton. His inability to pressure defences with his scoring as well as his conservative passing in general (he's more Rondo than say Nash or Magic in this regard) makes his assist numbers look significantly better than his actual passing prowess.
So you are saying fancy passers are better?  You must love Smart this year.
I dislike "fancy" passers who don't move the needle like Pete Maravich, so no. And what's wrong with Smart's passing? He's become a really good passer this year (obviously not Stockton level, but he throws a lot of high leverage passes for his role as a low usage combo guard).
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Re: Jaylen and Jayson lack of assists
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2020, 10:10:16 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Ignoring the dig on stevens, the play making question is an important one.  Tatum in particular may might be such a good scorer that one can add less weight to the low assist numbers.  Bu even Kobe reached five and six assists at this peak.  If Tatum doesn't round his game out a little more he'll be in the Carmelo category.  A fine, fine player but one that doesn't improve his teammates.

Jaylen I worry about less, mostly because he doesn't have the same level of talent and he doesn't hold the ball.  He makes quick decisions and generally has good results.
The bolded can also be used to describe prime Michael Jordan :laugh:, Jaylen has great potential (obviously not prime MJ, but I wouldn't be surprised if he makes the leap as well).
Jaylen grows his game every year. I expect leaps in different areas of his game, passing be the prime skill. I expect the same from Jayson.

Thing is, as long as this top 5 is together, I don't see major leaps in assists from the Jay's. Kemba, Gordon and Smart all average around 5 assists a game. If their assist totals don't decline, how much higher can the Jay's numbers get?

With this group, which could be together for years, maybe all of the top five players averaging between 4-5 assists each is the best we can expect.
I don't even care about the assist numbers too much (they aren't a good measurement of passing ability), as long as Jaylen and Tatum are able to make the right pass to punish double teams and collapsing defences I'll be pretty happy, and anything more than that is gravy.

+1

There is always a hole when double teamed. Always

Must make opposing teams pay

Re: Jaylen and Jayson lack of assists
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2020, 11:21:21 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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I'm not sure the lack of passing is on Stevens, I think it's more of a maturity thing. 

I've heard it said on this very site that, "assists are over-rated?" :angel:

Yeah, like I said, IMO its a maturity thing.

Tatum is like a kid with the keys to a new car, its like he now belongs to the cool kids club, he's an all-star.

What will he end up is the question, a James Harden type? Or a Kevin Garnet type? Somewhere along the line hopefully he'll figure out that the way you win a ring is by getting the entire team involved. 

That's called Celtic basketball. Right now, yeah he needs to look the floor over before he makes up his mind to go one on one.
Yes, assists are overrated. Not all assists are created equally and great passes might not result in assists.

Nick Van Exel is a good example. A ballhog with good assist numbers.
Another excellent example is John Stockton. His inability to pressure defences with his scoring as well as his conservative passing in general (he's more Rondo than say Nash or Magic in this regard) makes his assist numbers look significantly better than his actual passing prowess.

As someone who watched his whole career I won't stand for this John Stockton slander haha. The guy was not a volume scorer but was a deadly shooter (TS of 61% for his career!). Nobody's going to get his assist numbers without some major external factors, the most obvious being teammates who can finish, but he was ruthlessly efficient with his passing. You don't need to be spectacular to be effective, and he was, over and over for nearly 20 years. The Tim Duncan of PGs, although not quite as high a caliber of player.

Re: Jaylen and Jayson lack of assists
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2020, 11:43:28 AM »

Offline Somebody

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I'm not sure the lack of passing is on Stevens, I think it's more of a maturity thing. 

I've heard it said on this very site that, "assists are over-rated?" :angel:

Yeah, like I said, IMO its a maturity thing.

Tatum is like a kid with the keys to a new car, its like he now belongs to the cool kids club, he's an all-star.

What will he end up is the question, a James Harden type? Or a Kevin Garnet type? Somewhere along the line hopefully he'll figure out that the way you win a ring is by getting the entire team involved. 

That's called Celtic basketball. Right now, yeah he needs to look the floor over before he makes up his mind to go one on one.
Yes, assists are overrated. Not all assists are created equally and great passes might not result in assists.

Nick Van Exel is a good example. A ballhog with good assist numbers.
Another excellent example is John Stockton. His inability to pressure defences with his scoring as well as his conservative passing in general (he's more Rondo than say Nash or Magic in this regard) makes his assist numbers look significantly better than his actual passing prowess.
As someone who watched his whole career I won't stand for this John Stockton slander haha. The guy was not a volume scorer but was a deadly shooter (TS of 61% for his career!). Nobody's going to get his assist numbers without some major external factors, the most obvious being teammates who can finish, but he was ruthlessly efficient with his passing. You don't need to be spectacular to be effective, and he was, over and over for nearly 20 years. The Tim Duncan of PGs, although not quite as high a caliber of player.
Oh he was a fantastic player, he's solidly in my top 30. But this isn't slander at all, he simply wasn't on the level of Nash/Magic/LeBron when it comes to high leverage passing even when his assist totals say otherwise, they definitely overstated his passing prowess.

Btw his TS% was insanely high not because he was some sort of deadly shooter, it was because of his incredibly conservative shot selection. It's still very valuable, but it's not something game changing lol.
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Re: Jaylen and Jayson lack of assists
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2020, 11:43:43 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Improved playmaking is now the biggest aspect that can help Jaylen/Jayson get even better.

They don't even need to become great playmakers to become a lot more dangerous on the court. I believe they will improve as both have already, only question is how much more.