Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed

[TradeProposalDude]

Tony Allen should not be a #1 or #2 weapon coming off the bench. That makes him a 6th or 7th man. He's best utilized as an 8th or 9th man, meaning he's a 3rd or 4th option off the bench. When Eddie House is making his shots, not having trouble bringing up the ball, and distributing the ball to eventually lead to an open, high percentage shot, Tony's role is more distinct. Also Tony is a dependent player who needs Powe to be a low post option, who needs Eddie to make 3's, because that's when his own personal offense frees up, where he has the room to operate for lay-ups and dunks. The disaster warning strikes when we see him handling the ball the majority of the time on the 2nd unit and trying to be a facilitator, which has never been his true nature as a basketball player.

I don't know who made the comment - I did my best to summarize it in a few words. I'll just say, it certainly wasn't my own. And I must say, it was right on.

[wdleehi]

The biggest thing is TA is a frustrating player. He makes a great steal, and then commits a charge. He does a great drive and dish, and then takes an ill advised jump shot. This leads to a worst reputation than deserved. If he played the same, but didn't look like such a stud, people would be happy with his hustle.

For playoff matchups - I think he's fine for a bench wing behind Pierce and R. Allen - though not ideal. Lebron is going to Post and Posterize him - but Lebron is also a corner case and Posey got his butt handed to him by Lebron also. PP and RA should playing ~40 minutes a game in the playoffs.

And yes Leon should get the ball down low, but he should also be kicking it out either for an open J or a repost some of the time. I'm about as big of a Powe fan as you'll see and I can admit that's a hole in his game.

I do think the more TA settles in to his role (and the less its changed) the better he will be. At the same time TA could be included in any trade to make salaries match or for a team that needs some help at SG - and I don't think Giddens or Walker would be a travesty.

I worry about him in the role in the playoff where they are going to need him to spread the floor for the stars.  I hate the idea of having to take Rondo out just to get more shooting to cover for TA's weakness.


I wish they would play the reserves and starts together more often to get a better feel for the fit; either to have the players comfortable playing together or to figure out if someone doesn't fit the way the team needs.  

[crownsy]

The development I see is the fact that anybody can put up numbers on a bad team.  Tony is doing the same thing on a great team with 3 stars.  He's also done it while being asked to play out of position.  He rarely hurts the team when he's on the floor.  For every boneheaded play he makes on the offensive end he makes two great defensive plays on the defensive end.  Only Rondo is capable of making the defensive plays that Tony makes. 

Finkel, you and I agree on a lot of things but here is a comment that is so ridiculous that I almost spit soda out of my nose onto my computer!  He RARELY hurts the team?! You've got to be kidding me!!! The guy completely stagnates our offense out there with dumb play after dumb play. I also spent most of the night watching what he does with the ball when he gets it and it confirmed what I already knew. He gets the ball at the wing, and doesn't even PRETEND like he is looking into the post. He is only trying to isolate his guy, dribble between his legs or behind his back in traffic, and go head down to the rim. It is only if a guy is playing great defense does he kick it back out. Often though he just picks up the charge.

Yes, last night he had a decent game. That doesn't erase the majority of the time where he doesn't. I wish he would get it. He could help our team if he'd play within himself offensively. He doesn't though. He just isn't smart enough to realize that doing the same thing over and over will continue to bring the same results!

Flip that though EJ, doc preachs time after time that the bench has no creator off the dribble aside from TA. Every game, TA tries to create of the dribble.

you don't think the coaching staff might be telling him to be aggresive in iso's?

I mean, look at the rest of the bench rotation.

House- can't get own shot, relies on drive and kicks.

Leon- doesn't pass back out when doubled. ever. not a great first option on offense because of this.

baby- cant get his own offense, deveolping a jumper which will help.

Unless pierce is on the floor, SOMEONE, regardless of handle, has to move the ball into the paint. Right now it HAS to be TA. wouldn't really supirse me if the coachs have given him free reign to attack the rim at will.

Sorry crownsy, but your wrong on this one on some of the above. Powe shouldn't be giving the ball up in the paint when it occasionally finds its way down to him. The guy is shooting 53% from the floor. He has shown a knack for scoring on double teams. He is the only one on that unit that provides you with some consistency on offense. Sure he isn't on fire all nights, but he is very good down low. He should be taking about 2/3rds of the shots that TA is shooting, but TA won't drop him the ball down there.

Secondly, just because TA TRIES to create off the dribble doesn't mean the results are good. I could go out there and TRY to create off the dribble, but would be yanked real quick when I am turning it over every possession. The guy is out of control most of the time. He just doesn't understand when he turns and faces what is a good time to drive it in, and what is a good time to either drop it down low or kick it out. Doc saying that he is the only one that can occasionally get into the paint may be accurate, but that doesn't mean he is happy with his constant stupid decision making. He really doesn't have much of a choice though. As presently constituted they are going to struggle. It would be less though if TA would give Leon the ball. I do agree with the assessments of House and BBD. BBD wouldn't play on my 2nd unit though.
[/quote]

Right thats my point EJ, im not comfrtable with tony's role in the offense either, but he's the only guy who can do it right now.

And about powe- he's shooting that high because he gets alot of putbacks of rebounds (which i love) but that requires someone to go to the rim and leave him somethign to rebound like the beast he is.

Leon in the post, just out of a catch, is a disaster most of the time because he won't pass out of double teams. Leon gets his points off Offensive putbacks and running the floor, not a half court set being double teamed on the bloc.

[Brickowski]

TA's slashing opens up the floor for shooters, even if he does not always finish the play.

Pierce, Garnett and Ray Allen aren't flawless players either. You can always find something to criticize and hang your hate on that.

I'd rather loo at the positives, starting with the fact that TA is one of the best perimeter defenders in the league.

But I have to remind myself not to post in these kinds of threads.  The hating will continue no matter what. 

[Chris]

I'd rather loo at the positives, starting with the fact that TA is one of the best perimeter defenders in the league.

If this were the case, there would not be an argument here, but it simply is not.  I know the argument is just going in circles, but I just see no evidence to support this claim.

[cordobes]

This overanalysis of role players is what I object to.  The trashing of players like Scal, O'Bryant, and Tony kind of gets on my nerves.  Scal and Tony seem like good teammates, play whatever role they're asked, and IMHO, generally don't send the team into lottery stature when they're on the court.  They're not starters or superstars for a reason.

It's about their role. Scal is a 9th/10th man and he's good enough for that role. O'Bryant is a 15th man and exclusively a project and he's good enough for that role (per default). But we're counting on Tony Allen to be the 6th man and primary (and only) wing reserve. That's a very important role on a championship contending team, so I don't see any kind of over-analysis. The point is not exactly if Tony Allen is a superstar or not but if he's good enough to fulfill that role.

[cordobes]

I understand you nurture an intense hate for Rivers, but just out of curiosity, has that ever happened? Has a coach kept the starters on the bench for the second half because he had a 25 points advantage at the halftime? It's a honest question, I can't remember, but if you want the guy fired for that, it must be more common than what I thought. /i]

Rivers is no Red, KC, or even Obie.  I don't nurture a hatred for him.  But at some point, he should have a little bit of a feel for the situation at hand.  When your opponent has literally no chance to compete and the next team you're playing has younger legs and will be gunning for you, why have Paul, Perk, Kevin, or Ray out there?  Or Rondo, for that matter.  Rondo plays the game with Delonte's reckless abandon.  Why risk injury?  If the Kings had an epifamy and suddenly got within 20 and you're worried, put them back in.  Otherwise, the Utah Flash would have beaten the Kings last night.  It's a great opportunity to see what the second unit and beyond brings to the table in extended minutes.
Why would you risk injury to your 60m players so they can jack up threes in what was essentially summer league-caliber competition?
[/quote]

Finkelskyhook, English isn't my native language, so that's probably the reason why I'm struggling here and can't find your answer to my question. Would you be kind enough to answer with a yes or no, please? It's enough, because the question is basically: is what you're suggesting and bashing Rivers for not doing ever been done in the history of the NBA?

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

The self-congratulation on this thread is laughable, but maybe I'm just under the mistaken assumption that discussion boards are for discussion

Actually, I have an idea.  Instead of wasting the next 3 pages of this thread agreeing with each other, y'all--namely cordobes, Nickagneta, CoachBo, EJPLAYA, dark_lord, Roy Hobbs, et al--should do Celticsblog a favor and just rent a house together where you can tell each other 24/7 just how great and logical you all are, playfully chide each other for your use of facts, hand out TPs to each other for little things like rolling out of bed, and sit around and remind yourself just how right you were 4 years ago when you first had this or that brilliant thought about TA's ultimate fate.  I mean, in the company of such prescient thinkers who obviously have no use for dissenting viewpoints (since they never bother to listen to or address them), what exactly is the use of posting on a discussion board?  Please, enlighten me.

Earlier in the season and during the off season when the "Tony Allen will replace James Posey" and "Tony Allen will revert back to his form(16PPG, 4RPG, 3SPG) he was in just before hurting his knee in 2007" threads were out Roy, myself, CoachBo and a few others were getting hammered by saying exactly what we are saying now, that Tony is no better now than his rookie year. The Tony lovers came out of the woodwork and crucified us.

Where are all those guys now and where were all you people who are agreeing with us now, back then?

All the Tony lovers are probably sitting out this pre-determined discussion with such prescient thinkers as yourself because they don't like being shouted down by the pack of sycophants who have descended upon this thread.  That, or they know it's a LONG season, with peaks and valleys, and that just as TA has had a downturn recently (which coincided with an ankle injury) they know he's just as likely to have an upturn sometime soon.  But big picture thinking like that, argument with nuance, doesn't fit the prescient types--they already knew it four years ago anyway....

Please Salmon, expound us for simple folk what "prescient" means because when we have so much venomous sarcasm thrown our way we often have a hard time understanding those who use an extended vocabulary in such a mocking and condescending manner. Do you have a problem with our opinions, our self congratulatory attitudes or the fact that you have been dead wrong about the quality of Tony Allen's and the rest of the Celtics bench so far this year?

Mainly it was the self-congratulation part of it, as I noted in the first sentence of my post. 

Tony is just in a slump you say because he has an ebb and flow to his game that the expansive season creates?!?! Or he's really inconsistent. I'd love to go back and quote stats regarding his inconsistency and how his game has shown next to no growth since his rookie year but you will do what you always do and that is poo-poo the stats and say that the Celtics stats that they keep tell a different story. Apparently the Celtics gathered sabermetrical stats say different things about Tony's game than those at ESPN or 82games.com.

But since we are obviously nothing more than attention seeking, self congratulatory, neophytes who haven't a clue what real basketball wisdom is please explain to us why Tony Allen's game is so valuable to this Celtics team and exactly what we are missing when we criticize the greatness that is Tony Allen. Please explain to us simple minded folk what we are all obviously missing.

You're all very intelligent and there was not even a hint of disrespect regarding your intelligence (or anybody else's) in what I wrote.  I apologize if you took it that way.  My sarcasm was directed at the direction of the thread, which for 3 pages had turned into a giant high-five session that drowned out any disagreement.

As for TA, it's easy to come along, 10 games after he returns from an ankle injury and say, 'see he's still inconsistent' and then congratulate yourself on knowing it all along.  You admit he played well in the beginning of the year, and so what's to stop him from finding that form again, once the ankle gets further behind him and Danny makes an acquisition to stabilize the 2nd unit?  I just think you (and other posters like you) are jumping the gun on this discussion, arguing before all the facts are in.

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

The self-congratulation on this thread is laughable, but maybe I'm just under the mistaken assumption that discussion boards are for discussion

And yet, in your entire post -- and over the past several pages of this thread -- you managed to almost entirely avoid discussion of Tony's inconsistency, instead making excuses for him.  You also lumped all Tony detractors into a single group, presumably because you have no facts to back up your arguments.

Not true, Roy.  I lumped all Tony detractors into a single group because I was using SARCASM.  As you know, SARCASM uses EXAGGERATION for effect and to prove a point, which was that the self-congratulation on this thread needed to end. 

As for Tony, I like how you dismiss my posts as 'making excuses for him,' while 'manag[ing] to almost entirely avoid discussion of Tony's inconsistency.'  THAT IS THE DISCUSSION!  Yes, he's inconsistent and I'm arguing that there are reasons for some of that inconsistency--namely injury and the makeup of the 2nd team.  We all know TA has focus issues and confidence issues which will ultimately limit his ceiling, but beyond that, I'm just saying we all need to take a step back, look at the big picture, and chill out a little.  We're two months into the season, and it's not the time to start drawing conclusions, especially when those conclusions ignore some important considerations, like an ankle injury which coincidentally marked the beginning of an inconsistent period for Tony, or the fact that the 2nd team doesn't have a point guard.

For somebody who prefers the high road and loves the finer points of discussion, you sure do seem to make a lot of personal attacks, which you disguise with your use of a thesaurus.  Since such attacks are not permitted under the blog rules, I'd suggest you modify your method of posting in the future, and perhaps focus on the "discussion" that you profess to love so much.

I didn't realize that my sarcasm equaled personal attacks.  But, be that what it may, if my sarcasm rubbed anyone the wrong way, I apologize.  It was not personal...

[crownsy]

The self-congratulation on this thread is laughable, but maybe I'm just under the mistaken assumption that discussion boards are for discussion

And yet, in your entire post -- and over the past several pages of this thread -- you managed to almost entirely avoid discussion of Tony's inconsistency, instead making excuses for him.  You also lumped all Tony detractors into a single group, presumably because you have no facts to back up your arguments.

Not true, Roy.  I lumped all Tony detractors into a single group because I was using SARCASM.  As you know, SARCASM uses EXAGGERATION for effect and to prove a point, which was that the self-congratulation on this thread needed to end. 

As for Tony, I like how you dismiss my posts as 'making excuses for him,' while 'manag[ing] to almost entirely avoid discussion of Tony's inconsistency.'  THAT IS THE DISCUSSION!  Yes, he's inconsistent and I'm arguing that there are reasons for some of that inconsistency--namely injury and the makeup of the 2nd team.  We all know TA has focus issues and confidence issues which will ultimately limit his ceiling, but beyond that, I'm just saying we all need to take a step back, look at the big picture, and chill out a little.  We're two months into the season, and it's not the time to start drawing conclusions, especially when those conclusions ignore some important considerations, like an ankle injury which coincidentally marked the beginning of an inconsistent period for Tony, or the fact that the 2nd team doesn't have a point guard.

For somebody who prefers the high road and loves the finer points of discussion, you sure do seem to make a lot of personal attacks, which you disguise with your use of a thesaurus.  Since such attacks are not permitted under the blog rules, I'd suggest you modify your method of posting in the future, and perhaps focus on the "discussion" that you profess to love so much.

I didn't realize that my sarcasm equaled personal attacks.  But, be that what it may, if my sarcasm rubbed anyone the wrong way, I apologize.  It was not personal...

well, as one not mentioned among the group, you might want to put like /sarcasm or something next time, because it didn't read sarcastic, it read condesending and insulting as all get out.

but thats the problem with sarcasm on the net, tough to convey without tone avalible as you have in face to face interactions.

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

The self-congratulation on this thread is laughable, but maybe I'm just under the mistaken assumption that discussion boards are for discussion

Actually, I have an idea.  Instead of wasting the next 3 pages of this thread agreeing with each other, y'all--namely cordobes, Nickagneta, CoachBo, EJPLAYA, dark_lord, Roy Hobbs, et al--should do Celticsblog a favor and just rent a house together where you can tell each other 24/7 just how great and logical you all are, playfully chide each other for your use of facts, hand out TPs to each other for little things like rolling out of bed, and sit around and remind yourself just how right you were 4 years ago when you first had this or that brilliant thought about TA's ultimate fate.  I mean, in the company of such prescient thinkers who obviously have no use for dissenting viewpoints (since they never bother to listen to or address them), what exactly is the use of posting on a discussion board?  Please, enlighten me.

so because i dont like tony's game, u blackball me and get personal.....talk about juvenile, not to mention against the rules of the blog.  i have not engaged in any self-congratulatory behaviors in this thread.  i have consistently stated i do not like tony's game and listed the reasons why.  i have stated numerous times i am concerned about tony's consistency and play in the playoffs, since thats when it matters most.

Dude, take it easy.  It was SARCASM!!!!  You are pretty good about not self-congratulating yourself, but then again I didn't say you specifically had self-congratulated yourself, only that self-congratulation was getting out of hand.  But again, it's sarcasm, where obvious exaggeration is used to make a point.  I'm sorry if you were offended though.  You're a good guy and I didn't mean to specifically rankle you.

if you have a different viewpoint, bring something to the table about ur stance, rather than be immature and start belittling others who do not share your viewpoint.  thats rather ignorant.

That's what I have been doing--bringing my stance to the table--but I guess my posts got lost in the sea of self-congratulation   [That was a joke].

ive been a member of this blog for a long time and have always been able to get along with members who i disagree with.  but posts like this create drama.  not very mature or cool for that matter.

in the end i want tony to be a great player and help the team.  thats the bottom line.  im a celtics fan and want another championship. if he can improve on his weaknesses, great! it only helps the team.  i root for the name on the front of the jersey first and foremost.

Here, here.  Said like a true Celtic fan. 

My bottom line is thus: can we stop it already with everyone being so definitive all the time.  We're two months into the season!  Last year at this time, Powe wasn't playing, PJ was still retired, and Sam was languishing on the Clippers, and everyone thought Perk and Rondo were weak links.  Alot is going to happen in the next 4 months, which will undoubtedly shape the season and how we perceive player strengths and weaknesses.  Instead of making definitive statements about TA, can't we just agree that he had a good first month, a shaky second month precipitated by an ankle injury, and leave it at that?

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

The self-congratulation on this thread is laughable, but maybe I'm just under the mistaken assumption that discussion boards are for discussion

And yet, in your entire post -- and over the past several pages of this thread -- you managed to almost entirely avoid discussion of Tony's inconsistency, instead making excuses for him.  You also lumped all Tony detractors into a single group, presumably because you have no facts to back up your arguments.

Not true, Roy.  I lumped all Tony detractors into a single group because I was using SARCASM.  As you know, SARCASM uses EXAGGERATION for effect and to prove a point, which was that the self-congratulation on this thread needed to end. 

As for Tony, I like how you dismiss my posts as 'making excuses for him,' while 'manag[ing] to almost entirely avoid discussion of Tony's inconsistency.'  THAT IS THE DISCUSSION!  Yes, he's inconsistent and I'm arguing that there are reasons for some of that inconsistency--namely injury and the makeup of the 2nd team.  We all know TA has focus issues and confidence issues which will ultimately limit his ceiling, but beyond that, I'm just saying we all need to take a step back, look at the big picture, and chill out a little.  We're two months into the season, and it's not the time to start drawing conclusions, especially when those conclusions ignore some important considerations, like an ankle injury which coincidentally marked the beginning of an inconsistent period for Tony, or the fact that the 2nd team doesn't have a point guard.

For somebody who prefers the high road and loves the finer points of discussion, you sure do seem to make a lot of personal attacks, which you disguise with your use of a thesaurus.  Since such attacks are not permitted under the blog rules, I'd suggest you modify your method of posting in the future, and perhaps focus on the "discussion" that you profess to love so much.

I didn't realize that my sarcasm equaled personal attacks.  But, be that what it may, if my sarcasm rubbed anyone the wrong way, I apologize.  It was not personal...

well, as one not mentioned among the group, you might want to put like /sarcasm or something next time, because it didn't read sarcastic, it read condesending and insulting as all get out.

but thats the problem with sarcasm on the net, tough to convey without tone avalible as you have in face to face interactions.

Yeah, Celticsblog needs to install a sarcasm button or something.  But, yes, lesson learned for me. 

[EJPLAYA]

What I am reading in this post is a handful of people that have convinced themselves that TA is better and more productive than he really is, and a handful of people that are disagreeing and making factual points to try to convince the prior group. That doesn't sound like pages and pages of self-congratulating. I saw a couple posts early on where people stated that they had pointed out early in the year that TA wasn't going to get any better. Then a whole lot of discussion back and forth. Sure it is tough to convince the other side, especially when they disregard facts and only base their opinion on the subjective  , but that is what this post is all about. It does not however need people to get personally insulting. If what you are typing is thought by the majority to be insulting rather than sarcasm, then maybe you ought to not use sarcasm if that is what was really intended. I am sure you don't want people thinking you are being nasty!

There are a lot of guys on here that can argue back and forth about points and call each other out in areas where facts don't agree with their views, but they do it in a way that isn't demeaning to each other, and if it is taken the wrong way they apologize and move on. They don't however tell people to lighten up and blame the misunderstanding on them.

[Chris]

My bottom line is thus: can we stop it already with everyone being so definitive all the time.  We're two months into the season!  Last year at this time, Powe wasn't playing, PJ was still retired, and Sam was languishing on the Clippers, and everyone thought Perk and Rondo were weak links.  Alot is going to happen in the next 4 months, which will undoubtedly shape the season and how we perceive player strengths and weaknesses.  Instead of making definitive statements about TA, can't we just agree that he had a good first month, a shaky second month precipitated by an ankle injury, and leave it at that?

I absolutely agree with the "no definitive statements" here.  Everything we are talking about is opinion.  There is no fact here.

But I absolutely will not agree that he had a good first month (he was mediocre at best), and I also am not going to agree that an ankle injury led to his bad play in December.

To be honest, I don't think he played much difference in November from December.  He basically has played similar to how he has for most of his career.  The only things that have changed have been what they asked of him.

We can agree to disagree about all of this though, and we can all hope that he improves (or continues to improve if you believe he has been making strides), or is able to be flipped for a player that can make the team better.

[Brickowski]

He's productive enough to be a 15-20 minute player on a 28-4 team, and to rank 6th in the NBA in steals per 48 minutes.

Posey ranks 86th, with fewer than half the steals per minute that TA gets.