CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: ssspence on February 09, 2013, 01:04:52 PM
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Better without Rajon Rondo? No. Playing harder -- and happier -- without everything revolving around Rondo and without his, uh, moods. Hard to argue against the claim that life around the Celtics is simply lighter, these days when you see them lock in, win six in a row without the All-Star point guard and move the ball better than they have all season. The Celtics, for the first time in ages, really look like a team.
I hope somewhere Rondo is reading items like this, and Ainge's very smartly pointed comments about a slightly more team oriented role when he returns.
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Maybe Danny will talk to Doc about changing the offense to add in the uptempo play we've been seeing when Rondo comes back, and maybe he'll also make smartly pointed comments to the rest of the team that they should play hard all the time, not just when Rondo's out.
Or are we now labeling trying harder when you have a bigger role in the offense and handle the ball more "team oriented"?
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Irritated how short-sighted the media is with this narrative. Did they not see the 6 game winning streak with Rondo? Did they miss the 2nd half of last season?
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Maybe Danny will talk to Doc about changing the offense to add in the uptempo play we've been seeing when Rondo comes back, and maybe he'll also make smartly pointed comments to the rest of the team that they should play hard all the time, not just when Rondo's out.
Or are we now labeling trying harder when you have a bigger role in the offense and handle the ball more "team oriented"?
I just can't agree with your assesment of adding "uptempo" play. I find it absolutely false. This is the style of play he wanted to play with Rondo, yet for some reason it didn't happen... no use in pointing fingers now, but it simply didn't, despite it being completely in Rondo's power to make it happen.
What I do want to see though is a change in how our ball moves, and how much Rondo dominates the ball in our half-court sets, and how quickly he starts our offense. And it's not solely on him, Pierce has a hand in that aspect too.
And I'm one of the few out there that actually like Rondo off the ball, so would like to see more of that. I think his style of play could be more dangerous from those positions, particularly since he's a bit averse at taking players off the dribble for some reason despite it being an option for him in pretty much every single play.
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Irritated how short-sighted the media is with this narrative. Did they not see the 6 game winning streak with Rondo? Did they miss the 2nd half of last season?
Different season. Bradley was fully healthy except for the playoffs and Ray Allen was there to make all of Rondo's "get to the rim but pass off the sure 2 points" passes.
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Irritated how short-sighted the media is with this narrative. Did they not see the 6 game winning streak with Rondo? Did they miss the 2nd half of last season?
Just take it for what it is: a guy pointing out that Rondo's teammates have felt a sense of relief from his relentless militant attitude.
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Better without Rajon Rondo? No. Playing harder -- and happier -- without everything revolving around Rondo and without his, uh, moods. Hard to argue against the claim that life around the Celtics is simply lighter, these days when you see them lock in, win six in a row without the All-Star point guard and move the ball better than they have all season. The Celtics, for the first time in ages, really look like a team.
I hope somewhere Rondo is reading items like this, and Ainge's very smartly pointed comments about a slightly more team oriented role when he returns.
I hope he comes back with a new perspective of this game
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Maybe Danny will talk to Doc about changing the offense to add in the uptempo play we've been seeing when Rondo comes back, and maybe he'll also make smartly pointed comments to the rest of the team that they should play hard all the time, not just when Rondo's out.
Or are we now labeling trying harder when you have a bigger role in the offense and handle the ball more "team oriented"?
I just can't agree with your assesment of adding "uptempo" play. I find it absolutely false. This is the style of play he wanted to play with Rondo, yet for some reason it didn't happen... no use in pointing fingers now, but it simply didn't, despite it being completely in Rondo's power to make it happen.
Maybe. I think I've seen enough quotes from Doc and the players stating or alluding to trying to get more transition baskets with Rondo out to believe it's not my imagination.
What I do want to see though is a change in how our ball moves, and how much Rondo dominates the ball in our half-court sets, and how quickly he starts our offense. And it's not solely on him, Pierce has a hand in that aspect too.
I'd say we certainly look different without Rondo (or PP) controlling the ball during half-court sets but I think that, for all the ball movement, we're ending up with similar shots at the same time in the shot clock that we typically see.
And I'm one of the few out there that actually like Rondo off the ball, so would like to see more of that. I think his style of play could be more dangerous from those positions, particularly since he's a bit averse at taking players off the dribble for some reason despite it being an option for him in pretty much every single play.
Not sure exactly what you're referring to. Also, someone posted in another thread that Rondo drives into the lane more than almost anyone else in the league.
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Maybe Danny will talk to Doc about changing the offense to add in the uptempo play we've been seeing when Rondo comes back, and maybe he'll also make smartly pointed comments to the rest of the team that they should play hard all the time, not just when Rondo's out.
Or are we now labeling trying harder when you have a bigger role in the offense and handle the ball more "team oriented"?
I just can't agree with your assesment of adding "uptempo" play. I find it absolutely false. This is the style of play he wanted to play with Rondo, yet for some reason it didn't happen... no use in pointing fingers now, but it simply didn't, despite it being completely in Rondo's power to make it happen.
Maybe. I think I've seen enough quotes from Doc and the players stating or alluding to trying to get more transition baskets with Rondo out to believe it's not my imagination.
What else are they going to say really? But since January, would you say that our second unit, that being one that had Jet and Lee at the guard positions, didn't have an uptempo style?
I though that was a constant, so why with the same group of people wasn't it occurring more once you subbed Rondo in? At this point, I really don't care who's to blame honestly, but variable that changed was Rondo.
What I do want to see though is a change in how our ball moves, and how much Rondo dominates the ball in our half-court sets, and how quickly he starts our offense. And it's not solely on him, Pierce has a hand in that aspect too.
I'd say we certainly look different without Rondo (or PP) controlling the ball during half-court sets but I think that, for all the ball movement, we're ending up with similar shots at the same time in the shot clock that we typically see.
I think you're underestimating rhythm and the effect ball movement has on defenses. I'll tell you this much though, we'd be getting even better shots if the ball was moving this way with Rondo on the floor because despite everything, he's still our best passer and has the batter vision.
And we've seen it with Rondo, but just through stretches.
And I'm one of the few out there that actually like Rondo off the ball, so would like to see more of that. I think his style of play could be more dangerous from those positions, particularly since he's a bit averse at taking players off the dribble for some reason despite it being an option for him in pretty much every single play.
Not sure exactly what you're referring to. Also, someone posted in another thread that Rondo drives into the lane more than almost anyone else in the league.
I don't think that really means much, particularly with the amount of control he has on possessions, and how he compares to other players and their ability to get shots off on other points in the court.
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The media does not like Rondo, he is not a darling. A lot here don't like Rondo and must be the people swayed by the media?
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When rondo was healthy...the team had expectations....rondo had expectations his teammates would make the easy shots he supplied them with.
He got hurt and there were 0 expectations...they were written off almost entirely and it turned into a spectical on national tv that they were pretty much done.
KG and Pierce are still on the team and along with Doc have rallied themselves and everyone around that
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Maybe Danny will talk to Doc about changing the offense to add in the uptempo play we've been seeing when Rondo comes back, and maybe he'll also make smartly pointed comments to the rest of the team that they should play hard all the time, not just when Rondo's out.
Or are we now labeling trying harder when you have a bigger role in the offense and handle the ball more "team oriented"?
I just can't agree with your assesment of adding "uptempo" play. I find it absolutely false. This is the style of play he wanted to play with Rondo, yet for some reason it didn't happen... no use in pointing fingers now, but it simply didn't, despite it being completely in Rondo's power to make it happen.
What I do want to see though is a change in how our ball moves, and how much Rondo dominates the ball in our half-court sets, and how quickly he starts our offense. And it's not solely on him, Pierce has a hand in that aspect too.
And I'm one of the few out there that actually like Rondo off the ball, so would like to see more of that. I think his style of play could be more dangerous from those positions, particularly since he's a bit averse at taking players off the dribble for some reason despite it being an option for him in pretty much every single play.
Good points. This got me thinking on rondo dominating the ball, seemingly more this year at least to me.
What would happen if the celtics passed the ball more as they do now, even with rondo on the floor? What if the offense did not run through him so much? if rondo is not handling the ball, what role would he have? He isn't a reliable shooter who can make shots when contested. He doesn't have a varied offensive skill set to make his own shot consistently. He certainly would not spread the floor and make defenses lay off other celtics.
What would be his role in an offense where he isn't dominating the ball handling? about the only thing I can think of is him running to the basket (ala Bradley cutting) to receive passes from others and get lay ups.
How would the celtics integrate rondo into an offense differently?
These are real questions I am posing to the board.
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When rondo was healthy...the team had expectations....rondo had expectations his teammates would make the easy shots he supplied them with.
He got hurt and there were 0 expectations...they were written off almost entirely and it turned into a spectical on national tv that they were pretty much done.
KG and Pierce are still on the team and along with Doc have rallied themselves and everyone around that
Killer rationalization.
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Maybe Danny will talk to Doc about changing the offense to add in the uptempo play we've been seeing when Rondo comes back, and maybe he'll also make smartly pointed comments to the rest of the team that they should play hard all the time, not just when Rondo's out.
Or are we now labeling trying harder when you have a bigger role in the offense and handle the ball more "team oriented"?
I just can't agree with your assesment of adding "uptempo" play. I find it absolutely false. This is the style of play he wanted to play with Rondo, yet for some reason it didn't happen... no use in pointing fingers now, but it simply didn't, despite it being completely in Rondo's power to make it happen.
What I do want to see though is a change in how our ball moves, and how much Rondo dominates the ball in our half-court sets, and how quickly he starts our offense. And it's not solely on him, Pierce has a hand in that aspect too.
And I'm one of the few out there that actually like Rondo off the ball, so would like to see more of that. I think his style of play could be more dangerous from those positions, particularly since he's a bit averse at taking players off the dribble for some reason despite it being an option for him in pretty much every single play.
Good points. This got me thinking on rondo dominating the ball, seemingly more this year at least to me.
What would happen if the celtics passed the ball more as they do now, even with rondo on the floor? What if the offense did not run through him so much? if rondo is not handling the ball, what role would he have? He isn't a reliable shooter who can make shots when contested. He doesn't have a varied offensive skill set to make his own shot consistently. He certainly would not spread the floor and make defenses lay off other celtics.
What would be his role in an offense where he isn't dominating the ball handling? about the only thing I can think of is him running to the basket (ala Bradley cutting) to receive passes from others and get lay ups.
How would the celtics integrate rondo into an offense differently?
These are real questions I am posing to the board.
Put Rondo in this offense and swing the ball over to him with no defender on him and he has the option of taking an open shot, making a pass or an easy drive to the lane for a dishoff or a shot. He's also good at cutting without the ball.
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Irritated how short-sighted the media is with this narrative. Did they not see the 6 game winning streak with Rondo? Did they miss the 2nd half of last season?
Different season. Bradley was fully healthy except for the playoffs and Ray Allen was there to make all of Rondo's "get to the rim but pass off the sure 2 points" passes.
Oh come on. Ignore the prior six-game winning streak with Rondo all you like.
That streak we won 4 home games and 2 road games compared to 5 and 1 in the current streak.
That streak we had a larger point differential in our six wins.
That streak we played against 4 teams who would be in the playoffs compared with 2 in this streak.
The winning percentage of the teams we bit in that streak was better than the winning percentage of teams in this streak. And the strength of schedule looks better than it is because we played the Clippers without Chris Paul.
Seriously, that streak, a month ago, with Rondo, was more impressive that the current streak by most measurements of impressive wins. I'm sorry it doesn't fit your "team-is-better-without-Rondo narrative", but don't ignore it.
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I think Rondo became a crutch for the team...him not being there forces them to move the ball more to get open shots. Granted, Rondo has something to do with his play as well (the pounding-it-into-the-ground approach and not always pushing the pace), but I think this injury forced the team to realize they had to all be more involved in the passing game. Rondo is also all about winning and is arguably the smartest player in the game (Doc and KG are pretty good references on this), so I'm sure he's taking notes right now and will alter his play when he comes back. Its too simplistic to say its Rondo or Doc's fault, or the team's fault for the earlier play. Everyone had a role in it. The media in general isn't fond of Rondo, so many of them are making him the scapegoat.
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What I do want to see though is a change in how our ball moves, and how much Rondo dominates the ball in our half-court sets, and how quickly he starts our offense. And it's not solely on him, Pierce has a hand in that aspect too.
I'd say we certainly look different without Rondo (or PP) controlling the ball during half-court sets but I think that, for all the ball movement, we're ending up with similar shots at the same time in the shot clock that we typically see.
I think you're underestimating rhythm and the effect ball movement has on defenses. I'll tell you this much though, we'd be getting even better shots if the ball was moving this way with Rondo on the floor because despite everything, he's still our best passer and has the batter vision.
And we've seen it with Rondo, but just through stretches.
I agree that we'd get better shots if we ran this with Rondo. But no matter the effect ball movement may have on defenses we're still getting similar shots at similar times in the shot clock from the half court game.
And I'm one of the few out there that actually like Rondo off the ball, so would like to see more of that. I think his style of play could be more dangerous from those positions, particularly since he's a bit averse at taking players off the dribble for some reason despite it being an option for him in pretty much every single play.
Not sure exactly what you're referring to. Also, someone posted in another thread that Rondo drives into the lane more than almost anyone else in the league.
I don't think that really means much, particularly with the amount of control he has on possessions, and how he compares to other players and their ability to get shots off on other points in the court.
I'm not sure how Rondo's getting shots on other points in the court affects whether he has an aversion to taking people off the dribble.
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Is the bulls better without Rose? they're like number 4 or 5 seed right now, does that mean they are better without Rose? NO!
Same with this team, basically.
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see next post
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Maybe Danny will talk to Doc about changing the offense to add in the uptempo play we've been seeing when Rondo comes back, and maybe he'll also make smartly pointed comments to the rest of the team that they should play hard all the time, not just when Rondo's out.
Or are we now labeling trying harder when you have a bigger role in the offense and handle the ball more "team oriented"?
I just can't agree with your assesment of adding "uptempo" play. I find it absolutely false. This is the style of play he wanted to play with Rondo, yet for some reason it didn't happen... no use in pointing fingers now, but it simply didn't, despite it being completely in Rondo's power to make it happen.
What I do want to see though is a change in how our ball moves, and how much Rondo dominates the ball in our half-court sets, and how quickly he starts our offense. And it's not solely on him, Pierce has a hand in that aspect too.
And I'm one of the few out there that actually like Rondo off the ball, so would like to see more of that. I think his style of play could be more dangerous from those positions, particularly since he's a bit averse at taking players off the dribble for some reason despite it being an option for him in pretty much every single play.
Good points. This got me thinking on rondo dominating the ball, seemingly more this year at least to me.
What would happen if the celtics passed the ball more as they do now, even with rondo on the floor? What if the offense did not run through him so much? if rondo is not handling the ball, what role would he have? He isn't a reliable shooter who can make shots when contested. He doesn't have a varied offensive skill set to make his own shot consistently. He certainly would not spread the floor and make defenses lay off other celtics.
What would be his role in an offense where he isn't dominating the ball handling? about the only thing I can think of is him running to the basket (ala Bradley cutting) to receive passes from others and get lay ups.
How would the celtics integrate rondo into an offense differently?
These are real questions I am posing to the board.
Nothing different. He'd still be the PG, the team's best distributor and league's best passer. The question to ask is how much easier things might be and how much more quickly the Celts might demoralize opposing defenses.
It's very similar to the situation with Paul Pierce. Sometimes he scores the hard way and sometimes he scores the easy way. Most of us like it better when he scores easy, which in Tommy-speak means he gave up the ball, got it back and made his move to the hoop, instead of the epic isolation play, for example.
If you want to think of it that way, the Rondo "holding and pounding" the ball (very expected behavior of most star PG's) can be looked at as akin to the Pierce iso (though the Pierce iso is by definition more stagnant in terms of players moving off the ball than any PG holding that occurs), just that with Pierce the end result is a shot and with Rondo it's a pass.
The Celtics were playing default playoff-style basketball on offense long before the playoffs, necessary against great playoff defense (Chicago, Miami) that always results in holding, pounding and isolation offense, certainly as the game tightens and teams get tired. Probably they were doing it out of habit. The alternative would have been to rest Rondo more often, not rush him back from injuries, play the whole squad and preach ball movement despite that the game will tighten up in late May against the Heat. Easier said than done I guess.
Final comment. The Celtics should figure out who the purest PG of their 4 guards is, for those horrible moments that always occur in the playoffs when an opposing defense imposes its will for a stretch and it seems impossible to get the ball over half court. Is it Barbosa? Terry? Who can break pressure best, because that's how we'll be attacked by Chicago and Miami.
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What I do want to see though is a change in how our ball moves, and how much Rondo dominates the ball in our half-court sets, and how quickly he starts our offense. And it's not solely on him, Pierce has a hand in that aspect too.
I'd say we certainly look different without Rondo (or PP) controlling the ball during half-court sets but I think that, for all the ball movement, we're ending up with similar shots at the same time in the shot clock that we typically see.
I think you're underestimating rhythm and the effect ball movement has on defenses. I'll tell you this much though, we'd be getting even better shots if the ball was moving this way with Rondo on the floor because despite everything, he's still our best passer and has the batter vision.
And we've seen it with Rondo, but just through stretches.
I agree that we'd get better shots if we ran this with Rondo. But no matter the effect ball movement may have on defenses we're still getting similar shots at similar times in the shot clock from the half court game.
And I'm one of the few out there that actually like Rondo off the ball, so would like to see more of that. I think his style of play could be more dangerous from those positions, particularly since he's a bit averse at taking players off the dribble for some reason despite it being an option for him in pretty much every single play.
Not sure exactly what you're referring to. Also, someone posted in another thread that Rondo drives into the lane more than almost anyone else in the league.
I don't think that really means much, particularly with the amount of control he has on possessions, and how he compares to other players and their ability to get shots off on other points in the court.
I'm not sure how Rondo's getting shots on other points in the court affects whether he has an aversion to taking people off the dribble.
Well, first the aversion comment had nothing to do with my comments about other people's ability to take shots at other points in the of the court. If a player is limited offensively, it should mean that the spots from where he takes his shots should be concentrated in fewer areas than that of a person who's isn't limited offensively.
That said, let's not call it aversion because that's really not it, but not a priority for him, when it should be and something that he should be able to accomplish in just about every play?
Not really an example of this, but I still recall that game against Detroit when they put Hamilton to guard Rondo, and he was bothering Rondo, or Rondo wasn't taking advantage of the situation. Then Doc got on him to use his quickness against him, to drive on him, and on the next play Rondo drove by him and made one of the most awesome dunks of his career.
I sustain that it's his biggest offensive weapon by a wide margin, and feel that he doesn't use it enough in that context.
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Rondo would drive more if people were punished more for taking shots at him but with this team there is really no protection. As a result Rondo saves that mostly for the playoffs.
Now Doc Rivers talks tough all the time but he played during his prime with a bunch of brutes on the Hawks so he really has no clue and thinks he was just a bad ass himself.
Darko? Thanks Doc!
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Danny has already said indirectly if and when rondo comes back, he will have to change his game. And if he comes back and we play 500 or worse again while he is racking up triple doubles, he should get traded or our team has to get a clutch 4th quarter superstar. And getting a three point specialist like a novak. Our defense will too. sUffer though
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Maybe Danny will talk to Doc about changing the offense to add in the uptempo play we've been seeing when Rondo comes back, and maybe he'll also make smartly pointed comments to the rest of the team that they should play hard all the time, not just when Rondo's out.
Or are we now labeling trying harder when you have a bigger role in the offense and handle the ball more "team oriented"?
I just can't agree with your assesment of adding "uptempo" play. I find it absolutely false. This is the style of play he wanted to play with Rondo, yet for some reason it didn't happen... no use in pointing fingers now, but it simply didn't, despite it being completely in Rondo's power to make it happen.
What I do want to see though is a change in how our ball moves, and how much Rondo dominates the ball in our half-court sets, and how quickly he starts our offense. And it's not solely on him, Pierce has a hand in that aspect too.
And I'm one of the few out there that actually like Rondo off the ball, so would like to see more of that. I think his style of play could be more dangerous from those positions, particularly since he's a bit averse at taking players off the dribble for some reason despite it being an option for him in pretty much every single play.
Good points. This got me thinking on rondo dominating the ball, seemingly more this year at least to me.
What would happen if the celtics passed the ball more as they do now, even with rondo on the floor? What if the offense did not run through him so much? if rondo is not handling the ball, what role would he have? He isn't a reliable shooter who can make shots when contested. He doesn't have a varied offensive skill set to make his own shot consistently. He certainly would not spread the floor and make defenses lay off other celtics.
What would be his role in an offense where he isn't dominating the ball handling? about the only thing I can think of is him running to the basket (ala Bradley cutting) to receive passes from others and get lay ups.
How would the celtics integrate rondo into an offense differently?
These are real questions I am posing to the board.
The beauty of the way the Celts have been moving the ball is that eventually the defense is going to be a step behind the moving ball. If Rondo was to be on the receiving of a pass just as the defense was slipping he'd get an awful lot of open space to take it to the hoop and do what he does best. If it's not there he needs to keep the ball moving. The Celts have been getting guys in positions of comfort for their individual shots and they've been to doing so free of ego. Rondo's best shot is clearly not the jumper, but he can do plenty out of this offense with well timed drives.
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I hope somewhere Rondo is reading items like this, and Ainge's very smartly pointed comments about a slightly more team oriented role when he returns.
And note that Danny mentioned how Rondo would be "unstoppable" if he played more without the ball in his hands. This is all +
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Lets face it the real reason we are playing better is because Sully is gone! He was hogging all the rebounds and fouls, not allowing anyone else to be a man under there! ::)
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I think it's because Melo, he came up and inspired people during his stint with us.
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I hope somewhere Rondo is reading items like this, and Ainge's very smartly pointed comments about a slightly more team oriented role when he returns.
And note that Danny mentioned how Rondo would be "unstoppable" if he played more without the ball in his hands. This is all +
whenRondo finally practices free throw shooting and can take over at the end of a game , ie CP3 then he'll be there. Rondo has improved open stand jump shots, but he needs to do a ton more work on his outside game. ..... Rondo still looks scared to walk to the free throw line...... this is all about practice . and focus.
Kidd and others have put the work in to become better foul shooters.....this is absolutely critical .
Think how much better Rondo game would be if he could shoot 85% free throws . Rondo lacks basic shooting for NBA to make himself the best player he can.
I think if Rondo becomes a real threat to teams to shoot and make free throw s his game will change for the better.
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Lets face it the real reason we are playing better is because Sully is gone! He was hogging all the rebounds and fouls, not allowing anyone else to be a man under there! ::)
it is important that a team share the manliness
This is why Denver will never win it all with Faried. Too much MAN in Manimal.
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Lets face it the real reason we are playing better is because Sully is gone! He was hogging all the rebounds and fouls, not allowing anyone else to be a man under there! ::)
it is important that a team share the manliness
This is why Denver will never win it all with Faried. Too much MAN in Manimal.
We still have the league leaders in manliness with Brandon Bass and Jason Collins
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What I do want to see though is a change in how our ball moves, and how much Rondo dominates the ball in our half-court sets, and how quickly he starts our offense. And it's not solely on him, Pierce has a hand in that aspect too.
I'd say we certainly look different without Rondo (or PP) controlling the ball during half-court sets but I think that, for all the ball movement, we're ending up with similar shots at the same time in the shot clock that we typically see.
I think you're underestimating rhythm and the effect ball movement has on defenses. I'll tell you this much though, we'd be getting even better shots if the ball was moving this way with Rondo on the floor because despite everything, he's still our best passer and has the batter vision.
And we've seen it with Rondo, but just through stretches.
I agree that we'd get better shots if we ran this with Rondo. But no matter the effect ball movement may have on defenses we're still getting similar shots at similar times in the shot clock from the half court game.
And I'm one of the few out there that actually like Rondo off the ball, so would like to see more of that. I think his style of play could be more dangerous from those positions, particularly since he's a bit averse at taking players off the dribble for some reason despite it being an option for him in pretty much every single play.
Not sure exactly what you're referring to. Also, someone posted in another thread that Rondo drives into the lane more than almost anyone else in the league.
I don't think that really means much, particularly with the amount of control he has on possessions, and how he compares to other players and their ability to get shots off on other points in the court.
I'm not sure how Rondo's getting shots on other points in the court affects whether he has an aversion to taking people off the dribble.
Well, first the aversion comment had nothing to do with my comments about other people's ability to take shots at other points in the of the court. If a player is limited offensively, it should mean that the spots from where he takes his shots should be concentrated in fewer areas than that of a person who's isn't limited offensively.
That said, let's not call it aversion because that's really not it, but not a priority for him, when it should be and something that he should be able to accomplish in just about every play?
Not really an example of this, but I still recall that game against Detroit when they put Hamilton to guard Rondo, and he was bothering Rondo, or Rondo wasn't taking advantage of the situation. Then Doc got on him to use his quickness against him, to drive on him, and on the next play Rondo drove by him and made one of the most awesome dunks of his career.
I sustain that it's his biggest offensive weapon by a wide margin, and feel that he doesn't use it enough in that context.
It's true that Rondo scores more effectively when he gets to the rim but wouldn't that also be true for all of the other players that were on the list?
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What I do want to see though is a change in how our ball moves, and how much Rondo dominates the ball in our half-court sets, and how quickly he starts our offense. And it's not solely on him, Pierce has a hand in that aspect too.
I'd say we certainly look different without Rondo (or PP) controlling the ball during half-court sets but I think that, for all the ball movement, we're ending up with similar shots at the same time in the shot clock that we typically see.
I think you're underestimating rhythm and the effect ball movement has on defenses. I'll tell you this much though, we'd be getting even better shots if the ball was moving this way with Rondo on the floor because despite everything, he's still our best passer and has the batter vision.
And we've seen it with Rondo, but just through stretches.
I agree that we'd get better shots if we ran this with Rondo. But no matter the effect ball movement may have on defenses we're still getting similar shots at similar times in the shot clock from the half court game.
And I'm one of the few out there that actually like Rondo off the ball, so would like to see more of that. I think his style of play could be more dangerous from those positions, particularly since he's a bit averse at taking players off the dribble for some reason despite it being an option for him in pretty much every single play.
Not sure exactly what you're referring to. Also, someone posted in another thread that Rondo drives into the lane more than almost anyone else in the league.
I don't think that really means much, particularly with the amount of control he has on possessions, and how he compares to other players and their ability to get shots off on other points in the court.
I'm not sure how Rondo's getting shots on other points in the court affects whether he has an aversion to taking people off the dribble.
Well, first the aversion comment had nothing to do with my comments about other people's ability to take shots at other points in the of the court. If a player is limited offensively, it should mean that the spots from where he takes his shots should be concentrated in fewer areas than that of a person who's isn't limited offensively.
That said, let's not call it aversion because that's really not it, but not a priority for him, when it should be and something that he should be able to accomplish in just about every play?
Not really an example of this, but I still recall that game against Detroit when they put Hamilton to guard Rondo, and he was bothering Rondo, or Rondo wasn't taking advantage of the situation. Then Doc got on him to use his quickness against him, to drive on him, and on the next play Rondo drove by him and made one of the most awesome dunks of his career.
I sustain that it's his biggest offensive weapon by a wide margin, and feel that he doesn't use it enough in that context.
It's true that Rondo scores more effectively when he gets to the rim but wouldn't that also be true for all of the other players that were on the list?
Rondo does take people off the dribble when he's like facing sideways and bouncing up and down to the left and right, especially on a delayed fast break. Very unpredictable, do anyone who actually plays basketball.
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What I do want to see though is a change in how our ball moves, and how much Rondo dominates the ball in our half-court sets, and how quickly he starts our offense. And it's not solely on him, Pierce has a hand in that aspect too.
I'd say we certainly look different without Rondo (or PP) controlling the ball during half-court sets but I think that, for all the ball movement, we're ending up with similar shots at the same time in the shot clock that we typically see.
I think you're underestimating rhythm and the effect ball movement has on defenses. I'll tell you this much though, we'd be getting even better shots if the ball was moving this way with Rondo on the floor because despite everything, he's still our best passer and has the batter vision.
And we've seen it with Rondo, but just through stretches.
I agree that we'd get better shots if we ran this with Rondo. But no matter the effect ball movement may have on defenses we're still getting similar shots at similar times in the shot clock from the half court game.
And I'm one of the few out there that actually like Rondo off the ball, so would like to see more of that. I think his style of play could be more dangerous from those positions, particularly since he's a bit averse at taking players off the dribble for some reason despite it being an option for him in pretty much every single play.
Not sure exactly what you're referring to. Also, someone posted in another thread that Rondo drives into the lane more than almost anyone else in the league.
I don't think that really means much, particularly with the amount of control he has on possessions, and how he compares to other players and their ability to get shots off on other points in the court.
I'm not sure how Rondo's getting shots on other points in the court affects whether he has an aversion to taking people off the dribble.
Well, first the aversion comment had nothing to do with my comments about other people's ability to take shots at other points in the of the court. If a player is limited offensively, it should mean that the spots from where he takes his shots should be concentrated in fewer areas than that of a person who's isn't limited offensively.
That said, let's not call it aversion because that's really not it, but not a priority for him, when it should be and something that he should be able to accomplish in just about every play?
Not really an example of this, but I still recall that game against Detroit when they put Hamilton to guard Rondo, and he was bothering Rondo, or Rondo wasn't taking advantage of the situation. Then Doc got on him to use his quickness against him, to drive on him, and on the next play Rondo drove by him and made one of the most awesome dunks of his career.
I sustain that it's his biggest offensive weapon by a wide margin, and feel that he doesn't use it enough in that context.
It's true that Rondo scores more effectively when he gets to the rim but wouldn't that also be true for all of the other players that were on the list?
Holds no relation what I'm saying. It's not about where one is more effective, but the various ways a player can be effective.
For example, if Harden has an opening to shoot a 3, he would probably take it because he can make that shot with good effectiveness. Rondo on the other hand if he has some space, he'll probably take that opportunity to go to the basket because 3-pointers don't present a good opportunity for him to score.
The point is, that given this situation, it should be expected that Rondo being this type of player would be a league leader in penetrations per game, particularly considering the amount of time he has the ball in his hands, and considering the amount of playing time he gets in a game. And I propose that him being this high on the list is all fine and dandy, but considering the type of player Rondo is, it's still not good enough.
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What I do want to see though is a change in how our ball moves, and how much Rondo dominates the ball in our half-court sets, and how quickly he starts our offense. And it's not solely on him, Pierce has a hand in that aspect too.
I'd say we certainly look different without Rondo (or PP) controlling the ball during half-court sets but I think that, for all the ball movement, we're ending up with similar shots at the same time in the shot clock that we typically see.
I think you're underestimating rhythm and the effect ball movement has on defenses. I'll tell you this much though, we'd be getting even better shots if the ball was moving this way with Rondo on the floor because despite everything, he's still our best passer and has the batter vision.
And we've seen it with Rondo, but just through stretches.
I agree that we'd get better shots if we ran this with Rondo. But no matter the effect ball movement may have on defenses we're still getting similar shots at similar times in the shot clock from the half court game.
And I'm one of the few out there that actually like Rondo off the ball, so would like to see more of that. I think his style of play could be more dangerous from those positions, particularly since he's a bit averse at taking players off the dribble for some reason despite it being an option for him in pretty much every single play.
Not sure exactly what you're referring to. Also, someone posted in another thread that Rondo drives into the lane more than almost anyone else in the league.
I don't think that really means much, particularly with the amount of control he has on possessions, and how he compares to other players and their ability to get shots off on other points in the court.
I'm not sure how Rondo's getting shots on other points in the court affects whether he has an aversion to taking people off the dribble.
Well, first the aversion comment had nothing to do with my comments about other people's ability to take shots at other points in the of the court. If a player is limited offensively, it should mean that the spots from where he takes his shots should be concentrated in fewer areas than that of a person who's isn't limited offensively.
That said, let's not call it aversion because that's really not it, but not a priority for him, when it should be and something that he should be able to accomplish in just about every play?
Not really an example of this, but I still recall that game against Detroit when they put Hamilton to guard Rondo, and he was bothering Rondo, or Rondo wasn't taking advantage of the situation. Then Doc got on him to use his quickness against him, to drive on him, and on the next play Rondo drove by him and made one of the most awesome dunks of his career.
I sustain that it's his biggest offensive weapon by a wide margin, and feel that he doesn't use it enough in that context.
It's true that Rondo scores more effectively when he gets to the rim but wouldn't that also be true for all of the other players that were on the list?
Holds no relation what I'm saying. It's not about where one is more effective, but the various ways a player can be effective.
For example, if Harden has an opening to shoot a 3, he would probably take it because he can make that shot with good effectiveness. Rondo on the other hand if he has some space, he'll probably take that opportunity to go to the basket because 3-pointers don't present a good opportunity for him to score.
The point is, that given this situation, it should be expected that Rondo being this type of player would be a league leader in penetrations per game, particularly considering the amount of time he has the ball in his hands, and considering the amount of playing time he gets in a game. And I propose that him being this high on the list is all fine and dandy, but considering the type of player Rondo is, it's still not good enough.
Are you talking about scoring only? Because Rondo's most effective weapon isn't his shooting, it's his passing. Those other guys all take a lot more shots than Rondo but also have fewer assists.
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What I do want to see though is a change in how our ball moves, and how much Rondo dominates the ball in our half-court sets, and how quickly he starts our offense. And it's not solely on him, Pierce has a hand in that aspect too.
I'd say we certainly look different without Rondo (or PP) controlling the ball during half-court sets but I think that, for all the ball movement, we're ending up with similar shots at the same time in the shot clock that we typically see.
I think you're underestimating rhythm and the effect ball movement has on defenses. I'll tell you this much though, we'd be getting even better shots if the ball was moving this way with Rondo on the floor because despite everything, he's still our best passer and has the batter vision.
And we've seen it with Rondo, but just through stretches.
I agree that we'd get better shots if we ran this with Rondo. But no matter the effect ball movement may have on defenses we're still getting similar shots at similar times in the shot clock from the half court game.
And I'm one of the few out there that actually like Rondo off the ball, so would like to see more of that. I think his style of play could be more dangerous from those positions, particularly since he's a bit averse at taking players off the dribble for some reason despite it being an option for him in pretty much every single play.
Not sure exactly what you're referring to. Also, someone posted in another thread that Rondo drives into the lane more than almost anyone else in the league.
I don't think that really means much, particularly with the amount of control he has on possessions, and how he compares to other players and their ability to get shots off on other points in the court.
I'm not sure how Rondo's getting shots on other points in the court affects whether he has an aversion to taking people off the dribble.
Well, first the aversion comment had nothing to do with my comments about other people's ability to take shots at other points in the of the court. If a player is limited offensively, it should mean that the spots from where he takes his shots should be concentrated in fewer areas than that of a person who's isn't limited offensively.
That said, let's not call it aversion because that's really not it, but not a priority for him, when it should be and something that he should be able to accomplish in just about every play?
Not really an example of this, but I still recall that game against Detroit when they put Hamilton to guard Rondo, and he was bothering Rondo, or Rondo wasn't taking advantage of the situation. Then Doc got on him to use his quickness against him, to drive on him, and on the next play Rondo drove by him and made one of the most awesome dunks of his career.
I sustain that it's his biggest offensive weapon by a wide margin, and feel that he doesn't use it enough in that context.
It's true that Rondo scores more effectively when he gets to the rim but wouldn't that also be true for all of the other players that were on the list?
Holds no relation what I'm saying. It's not about where one is more effective, but the various ways a player can be effective.
For example, if Harden has an opening to shoot a 3, he would probably take it because he can make that shot with good effectiveness. Rondo on the other hand if he has some space, he'll probably take that opportunity to go to the basket because 3-pointers don't present a good opportunity for him to score.
The point is, that given this situation, it should be expected that Rondo being this type of player would be a league leader in penetrations per game, particularly considering the amount of time he has the ball in his hands, and considering the amount of playing time he gets in a game. And I propose that him being this high on the list is all fine and dandy, but considering the type of player Rondo is, it's still not good enough.
Are you talking about scoring only? Because Rondo's most effective weapon isn't his shooting, it's his passing. Those other guys all take a lot more shots than Rondo but also have fewer assists.
Don't care for the distinction between shooting or passing, penetration for him is the key to his game in whatever he ends up doing.
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What I do want to see though is a change in how our ball moves, and how much Rondo dominates the ball in our half-court sets, and how quickly he starts our offense. And it's not solely on him, Pierce has a hand in that aspect too.
I'd say we certainly look different without Rondo (or PP) controlling the ball during half-court sets but I think that, for all the ball movement, we're ending up with similar shots at the same time in the shot clock that we typically see.
I think you're underestimating rhythm and the effect ball movement has on defenses. I'll tell you this much though, we'd be getting even better shots if the ball was moving this way with Rondo on the floor because despite everything, he's still our best passer and has the batter vision.
And we've seen it with Rondo, but just through stretches.
I agree that we'd get better shots if we ran this with Rondo. But no matter the effect ball movement may have on defenses we're still getting similar shots at similar times in the shot clock from the half court game.
And I'm one of the few out there that actually like Rondo off the ball, so would like to see more of that. I think his style of play could be more dangerous from those positions, particularly since he's a bit averse at taking players off the dribble for some reason despite it being an option for him in pretty much every single play.
Not sure exactly what you're referring to. Also, someone posted in another thread that Rondo drives into the lane more than almost anyone else in the league.
I don't think that really means much, particularly with the amount of control he has on possessions, and how he compares to other players and their ability to get shots off on other points in the court.
I'm not sure how Rondo's getting shots on other points in the court affects whether he has an aversion to taking people off the dribble.
Well, first the aversion comment had nothing to do with my comments about other people's ability to take shots at other points in the of the court. If a player is limited offensively, it should mean that the spots from where he takes his shots should be concentrated in fewer areas than that of a person who's isn't limited offensively.
That said, let's not call it aversion because that's really not it, but not a priority for him, when it should be and something that he should be able to accomplish in just about every play?
Not really an example of this, but I still recall that game against Detroit when they put Hamilton to guard Rondo, and he was bothering Rondo, or Rondo wasn't taking advantage of the situation. Then Doc got on him to use his quickness against him, to drive on him, and on the next play Rondo drove by him and made one of the most awesome dunks of his career.
I sustain that it's his biggest offensive weapon by a wide margin, and feel that he doesn't use it enough in that context.
It's true that Rondo scores more effectively when he gets to the rim but wouldn't that also be true for all of the other players that were on the list?
Holds no relation what I'm saying. It's not about where one is more effective, but the various ways a player can be effective.
For example, if Harden has an opening to shoot a 3, he would probably take it because he can make that shot with good effectiveness. Rondo on the other hand if he has some space, he'll probably take that opportunity to go to the basket because 3-pointers don't present a good opportunity for him to score.
The point is, that given this situation, it should be expected that Rondo being this type of player would be a league leader in penetrations per game, particularly considering the amount of time he has the ball in his hands, and considering the amount of playing time he gets in a game. And I propose that him being this high on the list is all fine and dandy, but considering the type of player Rondo is, it's still not good enough.
Are you talking about scoring only? Because Rondo's most effective weapon isn't his shooting, it's his passing. Those other guys all take a lot more shots than Rondo but also have fewer assists.
Don't care for the distinction between shooting or passing, penetration for him is the key to his game in whatever he ends up doing.
It's a pretty big distinction. Rondo gets plenty of assists without driving into the lane. It's probably true that Harden or Parker or Westbrook can score more effectively than Rondo can from many areas of the court, but he can probably pass more effectively than they can score from most of those spots.