I'm as excited as you are for this series, although I must admit I'm kind of scared they are going to screw this up since the book is simply great (definitely the greatest medieval fantasy book ever)... the thing about the Lannister's hair color is a detail but it's weird, why didn't they keep the blonde color? And as you said it's more than a detail in the book, so it's a strange choice.
Anyway, the trailer reassured me a little bit, I just hope it stays true to the book and, most importantly, that it is well played by the actors (I didn't envision Tyrion like the one we see in the trailer at all :o).
I'm as excited as you are for this series, although I must admit I'm kind of scared they are going to screw this up since the book is simply great (definitely the greatest medieval fantasy book ever)... the thing about the Lannister's hair color is a detail but it's weird, why didn't they keep the blonde color? And as you said it's more than a detail in the book, so it's a strange choice.
Anyway, the trailer reassured me a little bit, I just hope it stays true to the book and, most importantly, that it is well played by the actors (I didn't envision Tyrion like the one we see in the trailer at all :o).
I have faith, it's Peter Dinklage, he's one of the best character actors around, never mind the best little person actor :D
EDIT: another nit pick, and mabey it's just the color in the trailer, but Danni's hair doesn't look very silver.
Mabey it's that they don't want to shock the audience with an unnatural hair color, but I've always pictured her like she is in the card game art, with noticeably silver (not grey) hair.
That will be another interesting transition. In the trailer here she looks sufficiently innocent for the first book, but I hope that character can pull off the character development.
Danni's transition from "scared little girl" to "daenerys stormborn, mother of dragons" and general butt whooping character.
Not sure what I am looking forward to more, the HBO series for A Game of Thrones or the next installment in the book series, A Dance with Dragons.
Any word on when this will begin to air?
This might be the straw that breaks the camel's back in me getting HBO finally.
But never mind the TV series....WHEN IS HE GOING TO FINISH THE 5th BOOK ALREADY!?
Any word on when this will begin to air?
This might be the straw that breaks the camel's back in me getting HBO finally.
But never mind the TV series....WHEN IS HE GOING TO FINISH THE 5th BOOK ALREADY!?
Right now the word is an April airing. I've been following the buildup toward the show here (http://winter-is-coming.net/) for a few months now. Lot's of nit-picky details that die-hards probably appreciate more than I do, but also a good place for the latest word on... well, everything.
Any word on when this will begin to air?
This might be the straw that breaks the camel's back in me getting HBO finally.
But never mind the TV series....WHEN IS HE GOING TO FINISH THE 5th BOOK ALREADY!?
Right now the word is an April airing. I've been following the buildup toward the show here (http://winter-is-coming.net/) for a few months now. Lot's of nit-picky details that die-hards probably appreciate more than I do, but also a good place for the latest word on... well, everything.
The only nitpick i really have that has story implications is the lannister hair color not being bright gold, just because the hair color is a huge plot point to the story. which sounds weird i know, and i dont want to spoil so we'll leave it at that but people who've read the novel are with me on this.
That hair color gets the Lannister's, or at least cersi and jamie, in trouble, big time ;)
However I do think they've made Jon Snow and Robb too old, especially Snow's "beard" while he is supposed to be 14 in the book... but it's quite possible they made him older in the series (Bran is 7 in the book and 10 in the series according to this excerpt).
I'm really curious to read/hear what others readers think of this excerpt and also what non-readers of the books think of it, if it convinces them to watch the show, etc!
debuts Sunday. Can't wait and I've never even read the books.
Show was pretty solid. Didn't like the ending, but from what I've read online that kind of stuff is common in the books.
Peter Dinklage has the biggest presence on screen of anyone in the whole show. Just wow...every single scene with Tyrion is a winner.
Peter Dinklage has the biggest presence on screen of anyone in the whole show. Just wow...every single scene with Tyrion is a winner.
I agree, Tyrion really steals the show.
Peter Dinklage has the biggest presence on screen of anyone in the whole show. Just wow...every single scene with Tyrion is a winner.
I agree, Tyrion really steals the show.
Did you read the books? I've only 'read' (listened on tape) the first one..and he was at once awesome and pitiful. In the show, he's all awesome so far.
Peter Dinklage has the biggest presence on screen of anyone in the whole show. Just wow...every single scene with Tyrion is a winner.
I agree, Tyrion really steals the show.
Did you read the books? I've only 'read' (listened on tape) the first one..and he was at once awesome and pitiful. In the show, he's all awesome so far.
There are a bunch of characters I'd always look forward to revisiting in the books (sometimes after 100's of pages w/o seeing them). Tyrion is right up there. Plus he appears in so many different locations. I think more than any other character he crosses over to touch several different plot lines.
Saw episode 3 (and 2 last week of course) too and I really enjoyed it. So far the series has been simply great, I have very few complaints here and there (the fact that Jon always appears without Ghost while they are supposed to be together 90% of the time in the books for example).
The cast is just perfect, I have no problem with any of the actors (I like Robert personally!). Arya and Littlefinger are just perfect, I always pictured them exactly like that.
Also I really like the length of the episodes, which allow them to develop the characters and the stories at ease and the balance between the different areas/characters has been very good so far. Can't wait for the next episode!
Episode 4's ending was pretty great.
Episode 4's ending was pretty great.
Yea 5 and beyond should be great, that Incident leads to the war kicking off in pretty short order
I liked four, thought Sam was well done (and yea ghost)
Also liked Danny showing her evolution into a queen. I was ticked last episode when they didn't hav her tell viserys to walk, but this made up for it
Only thin I really didn't like this week was the indomitablly long bath tub scene where viserys explained the entire history of his family. I mean, I get that they want to get that actor more screen time before the ummm incident that's comic up shortly, and that they have to have those scenes because the books do alot of that stuff through internal POV monologues, but that one just felt forced
Interested to see if people who haven't read the books found that scene jarring an out of place or if it was needed to close some gaps In that families history.
At least it had a cute topless girl in it to try to make it more bareable ;)
Episode 4's ending was pretty great.
Yea 5 and beyond should be great, that Incident leads to the war kicking off in pretty short order
I liked four, thought Sam was well done (and yea ghost)
Also liked Danny showing her evolution into a queen. I was ticked last episode when they didn't hav her tell viserys to walk, but this made up for it
Only thin I really didn't like this week was the indomitablly long bath tub scene where viserys explained the entire history of his family. I mean, I get that they want to get that actor more screen time before the ummm incident that's comic up shortly, and that they have to have those scenes because the books do alot of that stuff through internal POV monologues, but that one just felt forced
Interested to see if people who haven't read the books found that scene jarring an out of place or if it was needed to close some gaps In that families history.
At least it had a cute topless girl in it to try to make it more bareable ;)
Episode 4's ending was pretty great.
Yea 5 and beyond should be great, that Incident leads to the war kicking off in pretty short order
I liked four, thought Sam was well done (and yea ghost)
Also liked Danny showing her evolution into a queen. I was ticked last episode when they didn't hav her tell viserys to walk, but this made up for it
Only thin I really didn't like this week was the indomitablly long bath tub scene where viserys explained the entire history of his family. I mean, I get that they want to get that actor more screen time before the ummm incident that's comic up shortly, and that they have to have those scenes because the books do alot of that stuff through internal POV monologues, but that one just felt forced
Interested to see if people who haven't read the books found that scene jarring an out of place or if it was needed to close some gaps In that families history.
At least it had a cute topless girl in it to try to make it more bareable ;)
I haven't read the books and I just found that scene kind of boring. Didn't pay much attention. Their family is related to dragons? Or they were dragon riders? What? It's really unclear to me what they're getting at.
I've gotten the visual hints that the kaleesy (spelling) girl is feeling some connection with the dragon eggs. I don't much care for her brother or their family's history.
Episode 4's ending was pretty great.
Yea 5 and beyond should be great, that Incident leads to the war kicking off in pretty short order
I liked four, thought Sam was well done (and yea ghost)
Also liked Danny showing her evolution into a queen. I was ticked last episode when they didn't hav her tell viserys to walk, but this made up for it
Only thin I really didn't like this week was the indomitablly long bath tub scene where viserys explained the entire history of his family. I mean, I get that they want to get that actor more screen time before the ummm incident that's comic up shortly, and that they have to have those scenes because the books do alot of that stuff through internal POV monologues, but that one just felt forced
Interested to see if people who haven't read the books found that scene jarring an out of place or if it was needed to close some gaps In that families history.
At least it had a cute topless girl in it to try to make it more bareable ;)
I haven't read the books and I just found that scene kind of boring. Didn't pay much attention. Their family is related to dragons? Or they were dragon riders? What? It's really unclear to me what they're getting at.
I've gotten the visual hints that the kaleesy (spelling) girl is feeling some connection with the dragon eggs. I don't much care for her brother or their family's history.
Also wanted to hear from some book readers on something I noticed
Is it just me or does the more objective prospective of a tv show really help develop and make you care about secondary characters?
Example: I loath allistor Thorne in the books, but in the show I see him as more just a grizzled old vet concerned the young brothers aren't ready. I absolutely loved his speech this week.
Similarly, I think little finger and varys come off as less one dimensional evil/bad
The crown of gold!
The crown of gold!
Loved it..loved really getting to see Braun (especially the 'No, but he did." line!), loved Tyrion again, and I'm starting to really like Theon Grayjoy. Rob, I never liked in the books and I like less on the show. He's got froggy eyes.
tryin to get into it..watch past eps on demand..
doesnt feel like anything new
Just watched next week's episode on HBOgo.com. ****g awesome.
tryin to get into it..watch past eps on demand..
doesnt feel like anything new
The reason that this series is different from most has not presented itself yet. Give it more time.
Holiday weekend next week so I am more than likely at a barbeque or party.Just watched next week's episode on HBOgo.com. ****g awesome.
I was considering doing this, but then I wouldn't be able to watch it this weekend. What are your thoughts about having to wait almost two weeks to see the next episode?
I've seen episode 6 and it's still great. My only complaint is that the direwolves are totally missing, I don't understand why... They should have been in the "Bran in the forest" scene for example but their masters always appear withtout them... weird because it's a big subplot in the books.
I've seen episode 6 and it's still great. My only complaint is that the direwolves are totally missing, I don't understand why... They should have been in the "Bran in the forest" scene for example but their masters always appear withtout them... weird because it's a big subplot in the books.
Maybe they're downplaying the wolves a little because in the books they are much bigger and more impressive than the rather normal looking wolves they have running around in the show? In the show they really just look like wolf pets, not super smart ultra strong direwolves.
I watched the latest episode this evening and it was good, though very grim. Really not much positive happened, though the scene where Drogo kills that dude and literally rips out his tongue is pretty awesome.
I've seen episode 6 and it's still great. My only complaint is that the direwolves are totally missing, I don't understand why... They should have been in the "Bran in the forest" scene for example but their masters always appear withtout them... weird because it's a big subplot in the books.TP..agree 100% on the last scene. The drama of the women extolling to Joffrey that he wasn't supposed to be doing that, the look on the faces of Varys and Pycelle of being duped and finally Stark's expression was priceless. The visuality of the scene just could not be brought out in Martin's words the way the could on film with great actors.
Maybe they're downplaying the wolves a little because in the books they are much bigger and more impressive than the rather normal looking wolves they have running around in the show? In the show they really just look like wolf pets, not super smart ultra strong direwolves.
I watched the latest episode this evening and it was good, though very grim. Really not much positive happened, though the scene where Drogo kills that dude and literally rips out his tongue is pretty awesome.
Yeah I think they are trying to "hide" the wolves as much as they can because they look like cute pets, but still, it's weird! The same thing happened in episode 9 where they used excuses (Tyrion getting knocked off before the battle) to avoid filming battle scenes, for budget purposes I guess.
Anyway, the show is great regardless, the last episode was awesome and the ending... wow. Knew it was going to happen because I had read the book (and this scene over and over) but it got me hard, I think they managed to make the scene even more shocking or painful than in the book!
I haven't read the book and have really gotten into the series. I couldn't believe the ending to this week's show---totally caught unaware. I usually like to read the books of movies I see but I'm glad I didn't in this case. I think it had a much more dramatic effect that way. (My wife was crushed and irate that they killed him off).I've seen episode 6 and it's still great. My only complaint is that the direwolves are totally missing, I don't understand why... They should have been in the "Bran in the forest" scene for example but their masters always appear withtout them... weird because it's a big subplot in the books.
Maybe they're downplaying the wolves a little because in the books they are much bigger and more impressive than the rather normal looking wolves they have running around in the show? In the show they really just look like wolf pets, not super smart ultra strong direwolves.
I watched the latest episode this evening and it was good, though very grim. Really not much positive happened, though the scene where Drogo kills that dude and literally rips out his tongue is pretty awesome.
Yeah I think they are trying to "hide" the wolves as much as they can because they look like cute pets, but still, it's weird! The same thing happened in episode 9 where they used excuses (Tyrion getting knocked off before the battle) to avoid filming battle scenes, for budget purposes I guess.
Anyway, the show is great regardless, the last episode was awesome and the ending... wow. Knew it was going to happen because I had read the book (and this scene over and over) but it got me hard, I think they managed to make the scene even more shocking or painful than in the book!
I haven't read the book and have really gotten into the series. I couldn't believe the ending to this week's show---totally caught unaware. I usually like to read the books of movies I see but I'm glad I didn't in this case. I think it had a much more dramatic effect that way. (My wife was crushed and irate that they killed him off).I've seen episode 6 and it's still great. My only complaint is that the direwolves are totally missing, I don't understand why... They should have been in the "Bran in the forest" scene for example but their masters always appear withtout them... weird because it's a big subplot in the books.
Maybe they're downplaying the wolves a little because in the books they are much bigger and more impressive than the rather normal looking wolves they have running around in the show? In the show they really just look like wolf pets, not super smart ultra strong direwolves.
I watched the latest episode this evening and it was good, though very grim. Really not much positive happened, though the scene where Drogo kills that dude and literally rips out his tongue is pretty awesome.
Yeah I think they are trying to "hide" the wolves as much as they can because they look like cute pets, but still, it's weird! The same thing happened in episode 9 where they used excuses (Tyrion getting knocked off before the battle) to avoid filming battle scenes, for budget purposes I guess.
Anyway, the show is great regardless, the last episode was awesome and the ending... wow. Knew it was going to happen because I had read the book (and this scene over and over) but it got me hard, I think they managed to make the scene even more shocking or painful than in the book!
Poor Sean Bean -- can't manage to survive in a movie with swords.
I haven't read the book and have really gotten into the series. I couldn't believe the ending to this week's show---totally caught unaware. I usually like to read the books of movies I see but I'm glad I didn't in this case. I think it had a much more dramatic effect that way. (My wife was crushed and irate that they killed him off).I've seen episode 6 and it's still great. My only complaint is that the direwolves are totally missing, I don't understand why... They should have been in the "Bran in the forest" scene for example but their masters always appear withtout them... weird because it's a big subplot in the books.
Maybe they're downplaying the wolves a little because in the books they are much bigger and more impressive than the rather normal looking wolves they have running around in the show? In the show they really just look like wolf pets, not super smart ultra strong direwolves.
I watched the latest episode this evening and it was good, though very grim. Really not much positive happened, though the scene where Drogo kills that dude and literally rips out his tongue is pretty awesome.
Yeah I think they are trying to "hide" the wolves as much as they can because they look like cute pets, but still, it's weird! The same thing happened in episode 9 where they used excuses (Tyrion getting knocked off before the battle) to avoid filming battle scenes, for budget purposes I guess.
Anyway, the show is great regardless, the last episode was awesome and the ending... wow. Knew it was going to happen because I had read the book (and this scene over and over) but it got me hard, I think they managed to make the scene even more shocking or painful than in the book!
Poor Sean Bean -- can't manage to survive in a movie with swords.
I haven't read the book and have really gotten into the series. I couldn't believe the ending to this week's show---totally caught unaware. I usually like to read the books of movies I see but I'm glad I didn't in this case. I think it had a much more dramatic effect that way. (My wife was crushed and irate that they killed him off).I've seen episode 6 and it's still great. My only complaint is that the direwolves are totally missing, I don't understand why... They should have been in the "Bran in the forest" scene for example but their masters always appear withtout them... weird because it's a big subplot in the books.
Maybe they're downplaying the wolves a little because in the books they are much bigger and more impressive than the rather normal looking wolves they have running around in the show? In the show they really just look like wolf pets, not super smart ultra strong direwolves.
I watched the latest episode this evening and it was good, though very grim. Really not much positive happened, though the scene where Drogo kills that dude and literally rips out his tongue is pretty awesome.
Yeah I think they are trying to "hide" the wolves as much as they can because they look like cute pets, but still, it's weird! The same thing happened in episode 9 where they used excuses (Tyrion getting knocked off before the battle) to avoid filming battle scenes, for budget purposes I guess.
Anyway, the show is great regardless, the last episode was awesome and the ending... wow. Knew it was going to happen because I had read the book (and this scene over and over) but it got me hard, I think they managed to make the scene even more shocking or painful than in the book!
Poor Sean Bean -- can't manage to survive in a movie with swords.
Total shocker in the book for me too. I'd been enjoying the first book a lot up to that point, but this was the part that first made me aware that I was reading something different from anything else I'd read before. Rarely does an author invest so much in a character only to have him offed so early in the telling. It's a testament to the depth of characters in the story, that such a central and compelling figure is expendable.
I have this baby all queued up on Amazon. Ready to deliver in less than a month!I'm going to a bookstore and buying it first thing and reading it til it's done(on vacation that week), that is after waking up late from seeing the midnight showing of Harry Potter 8 the night before.
http://tinyurl.com/67ctl4f
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gYzDOPscL._SS500_.jpg)
Sean Bean is the man. Pure awesomeness.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/43395782/ns/today-entertainment/ (http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/43395782/ns/today-entertainment/)
I mean first he is at a bar with a Playboy Bunny 30 years younger then him.
Then he does the noble thing and defends her honor only to end up getting punched in the eye and stabbed in the arm with broken glass.
Then he just goes back into the bar like nothing happened without retaliation.
I mean that man is the definition of awesomeness.
according to the original Daily Mail story, the other guy was making lewd comments, Bean got in his way and the guy left, only to come back later and get physical with Bean (and it was implied they were cheap shots). If it happened like that, I could certainly see where Bean wouldn't get any licks in as in it was totally unexpected. For him to just get up after that and go back inside takes some stones.Sean Bean is the man. Pure awesomeness.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/43395782/ns/today-entertainment/ (http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/43395782/ns/today-entertainment/)
I mean first he is at a bar with a Playboy Bunny 30 years younger then him.
Then he does the noble thing and defends her honor only to end up getting punched in the eye and stabbed in the arm with broken glass.
Then he just goes back into the bar like nothing happened without retaliation.
I mean that man is the definition of awesomeness.
Well the without retaliation thing is a little weird. the way the news story comes off, Bean got into it with a dude and then got punched and stabbed without getting any licks in of his own.
If that was the case, I imagine he was saving face by acting tough.
I know I did something similar in a similar situation, and the fact was 3 dudes had just beat me up, but all I was thinking was "I just lost. CRAP!" and so I told the cops I didn't wanna press charges or go to the hospital and walked it off.
but it got me hard
You got in a fight with three dudes? No one is going to win a 3 on 1 fight.Sean Bean is the man. Pure awesomeness.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/43395782/ns/today-entertainment/ (http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/43395782/ns/today-entertainment/)
I mean first he is at a bar with a Playboy Bunny 30 years younger then him.
Then he does the noble thing and defends her honor only to end up getting punched in the eye and stabbed in the arm with broken glass.
Then he just goes back into the bar like nothing happened without retaliation.
I mean that man is the definition of awesomeness.
Well the without retaliation thing is a little weird. the way the news story comes off, Bean got into it with a dude and then got punched and stabbed without getting any licks in of his own.
If that was the case, I imagine he was saving face by acting tough.
I know I did something similar in a similar situation, and the fact was 3 dudes had just beat me up, but all I was thinking was "I just lost. CRAP!" and so I told the cops I didn't wanna press charges or go to the hospital and walked it off.
Truth is this season will most likely be the only solid season. I unlike some, do not believe this series of novels is very good. Game of Thrones, the 1st book is excellent, the other 3 are total crap. Nothing happens, really, nothing happens, most of the novels involve people traversing rivers and that is the exciting part. 3000 pages latter I was so infuriated in wasting a week on this series I swore I would not care one bit about the final 1000 pages.
People compare Martin to Tolkien and that is an insult to Tolkien. What Martin does in 4000 pages, Tolkien does in a 1000 and with more style, writing ability and story development. Martin just wastes paper and nothing is ever solved except for and thorough understanding that Martin has some deep emotional problems with his sister.
Martin finally gets around to answer questions posed in the 1st 100 pages of Game of Thrones, but after he has completely bored you to sleep with pages of descriptions about terrible food, banners and uncomfortable sex conversation and then these answers are just a throw in. Joffrey? really he was the master planner, Martin? Ok, if you say so. Martin has a tendency to talk and talk about lore, food, wine, etc. and then magically answer important questions in a page leaving the reader wondering.
If you haven't started the books, don't, save yourself some time. I am sure that the Hollywood Screenwriters will have to completely overhaul Storm of Swords and Feast of Crows so that average viewers wont fall asleep halfway through each.
If you want a good read, this series is NOT the answer. Its crap drama for drama's sake. Really there is nothing substantial after the first book that would ever make me recommend it to others unless I wanted to torture them. Read Brooks or Tolkien, they do this type of novel way better.
People who praise these novels are probably the same people who thought "Entourage" is a good show.
Truth is this season will most likely be the only solid season. I unlike some, do not believe this series of novels is very good. Game of Thrones, the 1st book is excellent, the other 3 are total crap. Nothing happens, really, nothing happens, most of the novels involve people traversing rivers and that is the exciting part. 3000 pages latter I was so infuriated in wasting a week on this series I swore I would not care one bit about the final 1000 pages.
People compare Martin to Tolkien and that is an insult to Tolkien. What Martin does in 4000 pages, Tolkien does in a 1000 and with more style, writing ability and story development. Martin just wastes paper and nothing is ever solved except for and thorough understanding that Martin has some deep emotional problems with his sister.
Martin finally gets around to answer questions posed in the 1st 100 pages of Game of Thrones, but after he has completely bored you to sleep with pages of descriptions about terrible food, banners and uncomfortable sex conversation and then these answers are just a throw in. Joffrey? really he was the master planner, Martin? Ok, if you say so. Martin has a tendency to talk and talk about lore, food, wine, etc. and then magically answer important questions in a page leaving the reader wondering.
If you haven't started the books, don't, save yourself some time. I am sure that the Hollywood Screenwriters will have to completely overhaul Storm of Swords and Feast of Crows so that average viewers wont fall asleep halfway through each.
If you want a good read, this series is NOT the answer. Its crap drama for drama's sake. Really there is nothing substantial after the first book that would ever make me recommend it to others unless I wanted to torture them. Read Brooks or Tolkien, they do this type of novel way better.
People who praise these novels are probably the same people who thought "Entourage" is a good show.
Martins novels are to men as the twilight novels are to women. they're entertaining, addictive, and ultimately facile. but I didn't stop and I will read the next one..because my entertainment is of more importance to me than my pretension
So the Khaleesi's brother wasn't really a dragon/her brother?
Having not read any of the books it took a lot of brain power to watch the show/remember info revealed in a previous episode. I had to constantly look up information to get all the names and places and sigils correct in my head. It made each episode go really slow but all in all I didn't mind my decision to watch the first season before getting started on the books.
Martins novels are to men as the twilight novels are to women. they're entertaining, addictive, and ultimately facile. but I didn't stop and I will read the next one..because my entertainment is of more importance to me than my pretension
But the chick wasn't hurt by heat. And she said fire can't kill a dragon.So the Khaleesi's brother wasn't really a dragon/her brother?
Having not read any of the books it took a lot of brain power to watch the show/remember info revealed in a previous episode. I had to constantly look up information to get all the names and places and sigils correct in my head. It made each episode go really slow but all in all I didn't mind my decision to watch the first season before getting started on the books.
He was truly her brother, but the whole "dragon" thing is supposed to mean that he wasn't really worthy of the title of "blood of the dragon" because he was whiny, sniveling, and ultimately weak.
But the chick wasn't hurt by heat. And she said fire can't kill a dragon.So the Khaleesi's brother wasn't really a dragon/her brother?
Having not read any of the books it took a lot of brain power to watch the show/remember info revealed in a previous episode. I had to constantly look up information to get all the names and places and sigils correct in my head. It made each episode go really slow but all in all I didn't mind my decision to watch the first season before getting started on the books.
He was truly her brother, but the whole "dragon" thing is supposed to mean that he wasn't really worthy of the title of "blood of the dragon" because he was whiny, sniveling, and ultimately weak.
pos, I was overly simplistic. a song of ice and fire is a life's work, and a good one.
but, at its heart, it's a soap opera for men. an impressive one, sure. it'll make me reconsider other highly regarded fantasy works. but a soap opera for men and teenage boys it remains, it does not hold up to the gold standard of once and future king, or lord of the rings.
let me say it like this... if martin were a nba player, he'd be steve nash. different, flawed, but a hof'er
Truth is this season will most likely be the only solid season. I unlike some, do not believe this series of novels is very good. Game of Thrones, the 1st book is excellent, the other 3 are total crap. Nothing happens, really, nothing happens, most of the novels involve people traversing rivers and that is the exciting part. 3000 pages latter I was so infuriated in wasting a week on this series I swore I would not care one bit about the final 1000 pages.
People compare Martin to Tolkien and that is an insult to Tolkien. What Martin does in 4000 pages, Tolkien does in a 1000 and with more style, writing ability and story development. Martin just wastes paper and nothing is ever solved except for and thorough understanding that Martin has some deep emotional problems with his sister.
Martin finally gets around to answer questions posed in the 1st 100 pages of Game of Thrones, but after he has completely bored you to sleep with pages of descriptions about terrible food, banners and uncomfortable sex conversation and then these answers are just a throw in. Joffrey? really he was the master planner, Martin? Ok, if you say so. Martin has a tendency to talk and talk about lore, food, wine, etc. and then magically answer important questions in a page leaving the reader wondering.
If you haven't started the books, don't, save yourself some time. I am sure that the Hollywood Screenwriters will have to completely overhaul Storm of Swords and Feast of Crows so that average viewers wont fall asleep halfway through each.
If you want a good read, this series is NOT the answer. Its crap drama for drama's sake. Really there is nothing substantial after the first book that would ever make me recommend it to others unless I wanted to torture them. Read Brooks or Tolkien, they do this type of novel way better.
People who praise these novels are probably the same people who thought "Entourage" is a good show.
You got in a fight with three dudes? No one is going to win a 3 on 1 fight.
I kinda thought he was just trying to show off when the girl in the tub asked him if there was dragon blood in his veins (thus an inherited immunity) and he said "It's a possibility." I figured I wouldn't rule anything out, especially since their family apparently survived extended inbreeding.But the chick wasn't hurt by heat. And she said fire can't kill a dragon.So the Khaleesi's brother wasn't really a dragon/her brother?
Having not read any of the books it took a lot of brain power to watch the show/remember info revealed in a previous episode. I had to constantly look up information to get all the names and places and sigils correct in my head. It made each episode go really slow but all in all I didn't mind my decision to watch the first season before getting started on the books.
He was truly her brother, but the whole "dragon" thing is supposed to mean that he wasn't really worthy of the title of "blood of the dragon" because he was whiny, sniveling, and ultimately weak.
Right. She's got something weird going on with her in that regard, which isn't entirely explained by that point in the book, either. However, there is enough background on the Targaryens revealed that it's clear it isn't normal for a Targaryen to be impervious to heat -- at one point there's reference to a Targaryen in the past who killed himself by swallowing a flammable substance in the belief it would allow him to breathe fire.
From what I've read so far it seems that some members of the great houses have a certain affinity with their banner animals (to varying degrees), but none of them is literally that animal, though at times they may seem to exhibit some of the characteristics or have a supernaturally strong connection to them (e.g. impervious to heat / flame, able to command / read the minds of wolves).
Just because somebody does not have that sort of affinity, though, doesn't mean they are actually a true member of that family.
an interesting account. id counter that a soap opera for men can appeal to some women as much as 'chick flicks' (or twilight) can appeal to some men.
my point was that tolkien is modern literature, while martin is not...but that does not make it any less an incredibly interesting and complex fiction. and trust me...i know bad fantasy. martin is far from that.
As for Martin-Tolkien comparisons, I think it's more accurate to say that Martin's brand of fantasy is a reaction against the Tolkinian. He takes all of the tropes that Tolkien made famous and deliberately turns them on their head. That's why this series was so refreshing to the genre as a whole. There have been so many Tolkien imitations and ripoffs (Terry Brooks, I'm glaring in your direction), and what Martin did was toss the accepted fantasy model out the window and write a drama that questions whether those standard, romantic tropes could ever be sustainable in a setting that operates closer to our reality.
The two authors take such divergent approaches that they're hardly even comparable, at least for me. The only thing they have in common is the genre and the substantial page count.
Pretty solid season. Can't wait until next year. Wife and I actually picked up the first book today. I will probably start reading the whole series and have it done by next season of the HBO show.
Yes sir. That how book one endedPretty solid season. Can't wait until next year. Wife and I actually picked up the first book today. I will probably start reading the whole series and have it done by next season of the HBO show.
Was this the last one?
Loved the baby dragons!
Yes sir. That how book one endedPretty solid season. Can't wait until next year. Wife and I actually picked up the first book today. I will probably start reading the whole series and have it done by next season of the HBO show.
Was this the last one?
Loved the baby dragons!
Some fans were bummed they didnt see anything from the battles, even though theyre not very detailed in the book either. I dont think its a spoiler to say theres a big battle in the second book. Will you be able to show that?
DB: There was never much discussion of shooting The Battle of Whispering Wood [Robb vs. Jaime's army]. We did have plans to show Tyrion marching into battle behind The Mountain. We had a whole way we wanted to shoot it following Tyrions eye level as The Mountain is just (cutting soldiers down). Ultimately we had to make some really tough decisions. We ran out of time to shoot it properly and we much rather have a great scene with our characters than a crappy version of the battle. We want to have some great battles, were working very hard to have great battles in season two. Wed like to have more direwolves too.
DW: Theres so many things we can do so much better than films. But there are a few things like battles and creatures where theres a brute force financial component to doing those well, and it involves being very creative and selective about how you show those things to make them achievable. We dont want them to look like a Playstation 2 game, we want it to look at the same level [of quality] as the rest of the show.
Yeah I had a pretty strong hunch that those things were gonna hatch at one point in one of the books/seasons. Didn't expect the horse/barbarian dude to die though.Pretty solid season. Can't wait until next year. Wife and I actually picked up the first book today. I will probably start reading the whole series and have it done by next season of the HBO show.
Was this the last one?
Loved the baby dragons!
Yeah I had a pretty strong hunch that those things were gonna hatch at one point in one of the books/seasons. Didn't expect the horse/barbarian dude to die though.Pretty solid season. Can't wait until next year. Wife and I actually picked up the first book today. I will probably start reading the whole series and have it done by next season of the HBO show.
Was this the last one?
Loved the baby dragons!
Does anyone else think 10 episode seasons should be a crime? Seems like a lot of shows are going that way nowadays. Each good show should have at least 20-24.
Seems like a lot of shows are going that way nowadays. Each good show should have at least 20-24.I disagree, giving a show 20-24 episodes (especially in an hour long structure) can be too much time for a drama.
Yeah that's really what I meant. Shorter seasons.Yeah I had a pretty strong hunch that those things were gonna hatch at one point in one of the books/seasons. Didn't expect the horse/barbarian dude to die though.Pretty solid season. Can't wait until next year. Wife and I actually picked up the first book today. I will probably start reading the whole series and have it done by next season of the HBO show.
Was this the last one?
Loved the baby dragons!
Does anyone else think 10 episode seasons should be a crime? Seems like a lot of shows are going that way nowadays. Each good show should have at least 20-24.
13 epis is pretty common. So is 11.
Pretty solid rendering of the book's last act. I was a little bit surprised by how much of Daenarys' naked body they showed, but I guess it's HBO. Heh.Wasn't she all kinds of nude in the first episode?
The dragons were a little underwhelming. I was disappointed they weren't literally sucking at her breasts as they were in the book. I suppose they'll become more impressive later.
Seems like a lot of shows are going that way nowadays. Each good show should have at least 20-24.I disagree, giving a show 20-24 episodes (especially in an hour long structure) can be too much time for a drama.
Having a limited run time forces the director to make choices and develop themes judiciously. Far too many shows just meander on and become boring or become completely episodic if given too much time to film.
Pretty solid rendering of the book's last act. I was a little bit surprised by how much of Daenarys' naked body they showed, but I guess it's HBO. Heh.Wasn't she all kinds of nude in the first episode?
The dragons were a little underwhelming. I was disappointed they weren't literally sucking at her breasts as they were in the book. I suppose they'll become more impressive later.
I laughed when you said you were disappointed the dragons weren't sucking on her breasts like in the book. Mostly because some fan nerd told me the other day that Daenary's is only 13 years old in the books. Such a shame we can't have it more true to the books. I guess even HBO has limits. Lol
Pretty solid rendering of the book's last act. I was a little bit surprised by how much of Daenarys' naked body they showed, but I guess it's HBO. Heh.Wasn't she all kinds of nude in the first episode?
The dragons were a little underwhelming. I was disappointed they weren't literally sucking at her breasts as they were in the book. I suppose they'll become more impressive later.
I laughed when you said you were disappointed the dragons weren't sucking on her breasts like in the book. Mostly because some fan nerd told me the other day that Daenary's is only 13 years old in the books. Such a shame we can't have it more true to the books. I guess even HBO has limits. Lol
I kinda got that the show tried making her look young, I got the feeling that she was a young girl in the book. The first Stark daughter looked older than she acted though. How old was she supposed to be in the book?Pretty solid rendering of the book's last act. I was a little bit surprised by how much of Daenarys' naked body they showed, but I guess it's HBO. Heh.Wasn't she all kinds of nude in the first episode?
The dragons were a little underwhelming. I was disappointed they weren't literally sucking at her breasts as they were in the book. I suppose they'll become more impressive later.
I laughed when you said you were disappointed the dragons weren't sucking on her breasts like in the book. Mostly because some fan nerd told me the other day that Daenary's is only 13 years old in the books. Such a shame we can't have it more true to the books. I guess even HBO has limits. Lol
Yeah, they made several of the characters older without ever really talking much about age. Dany (13 to start book, 14 by end), Robb and Jon (both 14 to start book) all look older than their supposed age. And with all the, um, mating that Dany does in season one it'd have been difficult to cast a real 13 year old in the role. Though my wife does think the girl they cast as Dany still looked young, she doesn't look 13 and in real life is actually in her early 20s.
I kinda got that the show tried making her look young, I got the feeling that she was a young girl in the book. The first Stark daughter looked older than she acted though. How old was she supposed to be in the book?Pretty solid rendering of the book's last act. I was a little bit surprised by how much of Daenarys' naked body they showed, but I guess it's HBO. Heh.Wasn't she all kinds of nude in the first episode?
The dragons were a little underwhelming. I was disappointed they weren't literally sucking at her breasts as they were in the book. I suppose they'll become more impressive later.
I laughed when you said you were disappointed the dragons weren't sucking on her breasts like in the book. Mostly because some fan nerd told me the other day that Daenary's is only 13 years old in the books. Such a shame we can't have it more true to the books. I guess even HBO has limits. Lol
Yeah, they made several of the characters older without ever really talking much about age. Dany (13 to start book, 14 by end), Robb and Jon (both 14 to start book) all look older than their supposed age. And with all the, um, mating that Dany does in season one it'd have been difficult to cast a real 13 year old in the role. Though my wife does think the girl they cast as Dany still looked young, she doesn't look 13 and in real life is actually in her early 20s.
Pretty solid rendering of the book's last act. I was a little bit surprised by how much of Daenarys' naked body they showed, but I guess it's HBO. Heh.Wasn't she all kinds of nude in the first episode?
The dragons were a little underwhelming. I was disappointed they weren't literally sucking at her breasts as they were in the book. I suppose they'll become more impressive later.
I laughed when you said you were disappointed the dragons weren't sucking on her breasts like in the book. Mostly because some fan nerd told me the other day that Daenary's is only 13 years old in the books. Such a shame we can't have it more true to the books. I guess even HBO has limits. Lol
Got the new book today!
Great prologue, then Chapter 1 starts right up with Tyrion. I was hoping to finish up the book I was working on, but I'm thinking I'll read this first.
Got the new book today!
Great prologue, then Chapter 1 starts right up with Tyrion. I was hoping to finish up the book I was working on, but I'm thinking I'll read this first.
well thanks for the spoiler alert
Got the new book today!
Great prologue, then Chapter 1 starts right up with Tyrion. I was hoping to finish up the book I was working on, but I'm thinking I'll read this first.
well thanks for the spoiler alert
I didn't tell you he died, did I?
CAUSE HE DOES
Now there's a spoiler ;D
Got the new book today!
Great prologue, then Chapter 1 starts right up with Tyrion. I was hoping to finish up the book I was working on, but I'm thinking I'll read this first.
well thanks for the spoiler alert
I didn't tell you he died, did I?
CAUSE HE DOES
Now there's a spoiler ;D
it's a spoiler for me cause im in a part of one of the earlier books where it isn't clear whether tyrion will live or die (although i figured he'd survive somehow).
A chapter from book 6 was released on Martin's web-site.
http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html (http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html)
season 2 starts april. The book release date is totally up to martin,though he will probably release it quicker than usual so that it can be released before the show catches up to the books. My guess would be 2 years.A chapter from book 6 was released on Martin's web-site.
http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html (http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html)
Thanks. Don't want to read it yet though!
Any word on when the new book will be out? Seems like he's on a roll now.
Or when the 2nd season starts?
http://www.westeros.org/ I have spent much time here. Another forum to spend hours on lol. They go over all the theories and prophecy involved stuff quite often.The celticsblog of game of thrones.
funny I did the reverse. :D
I haven't yet watched the premiere (had to watch the Shameless season finale and they aired at the same time), but it started tonight. I will check it out tomorrow.
Even though I have now read the books (I hadn't before I watched season 1), I still really like this show. It is just done so well.
Yep. I didn't remember the Robb Stark battle sequence from the book at all. It may have happened and I just forgot (although my wife didn't remember it either), but I think the show actually added that whole scene in, and I thought it was pretty well done.Even though I have now read the books (I hadn't before I watched season 1), I still really like this show. It is just done so well.
I agree. Without spoiling, after reading the books I was VERY curious as to how they were going to portray on film the...event that closed last night's show. I thought the show did the book scene justice.
My wife, on the other hand, having not read the books, had a different reaction. Along the lines of "WHAT THE *##!!! WAS THAT?"
He has apparently written about 200 pages of the 6th book and when the paperback of book 5 comes out he will have a different chapter than the one he posted online from it.A chapter from book 6 was released on Martin's web-site.
http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html (http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html)
Thanks. Don't want to read it yet though!
Any word on when the new book will be out? Seems like he's on a roll now.
Or when the 2nd season starts?
I read that the TV show was going to diverge from the books and actual show Rob's western(close to Lannisport) campaign and show his introduction to and relationship with his wife, which the book completely omitted.Yep. I didn't remember the Robb Stark battle sequence from the book at all. It may have happened and I just forgot (although my wife didn't remember it either), but I think the show actually added that whole scene in, and I thought it was pretty well done.Even though I have now read the books (I hadn't before I watched season 1), I still really like this show. It is just done so well.
I agree. Without spoiling, after reading the books I was VERY curious as to how they were going to portray on film the...event that closed last night's show. I thought the show did the book scene justice.
My wife, on the other hand, having not read the books, had a different reaction. Along the lines of "WHAT THE *##!!! WAS THAT?"
I'm so excited to see what they do with the Blackwater Battle that airs Sunday. Glad to see they had George RR Martin write the episode since they had to change some stuff for budgetary reasons, but still can't wait for the battle.TP Moranis. I anticipate a fantastic episode Sunday.
http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/05/20/game-of-thrones-blackwater/ (http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/05/20/game-of-thrones-blackwater/)
I'm not gonna lie, i've felt a bit let down this season. I didn't read the books so i don't know how it's supposed to go at this point, but this whole season has just been a smorgasbord of posturing, threats, and warnings - and not much else.If it is anything like the book it will not disappoint. This also is not the season finale. The following week is the finale and there should be a few more game changing moments in it (at least if they continue to follow the book fairly closely).
Sure a few things in Qarth have gone down and the power balances are shifting here and there, but i need a bigtime episode out of this sunday. Like, Walking-Dead-season-finale big.
I'm not gonna lie, i've felt a bit let down this season. I didn't read the books so i don't know how it's supposed to go at this point, but this whole season has just been a smorgasbord of posturing, threats, and warnings - and not much else.If it is anything like the book it will not disappoint. This also is not the season finale. The following week is the finale and there should be a few more game changing moments in it (at least if they continue to follow the book fairly closely).
Sure a few things in Qarth have gone down and the power balances are shifting here and there, but i need a bigtime episode out of this sunday. Like, Walking-Dead-season-finale big.
Book 2 was fairly slow for a large portion so it isn't that surprising the show is a bit slow. In fact, most of the series is a bit slow and deliberate where not much happens for a couple of hundred pages, and then there is intense action with lots of changes for a hundred pages, and then it repeats itself. You just don't seem to mind the slow parts in the books, as it is really well down. An excellent read though the books are very long.
the battle scene certainly tickled the imagination while reading. Hopefully they spend a decent amount of time on it.I'm so excited to see what they do with the Blackwater Battle that airs Sunday. Glad to see they had George RR Martin write the episode since they had to change some stuff for budgetary reasons, but still can't wait for the battle.TP Moranis. I anticipate a fantastic episode Sunday.
http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/05/20/game-of-thrones-blackwater/ (http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/05/20/game-of-thrones-blackwater/)
Haven't read the books. Episode 9 was off the hook. That was fantastic. They obviously hoarded all of their HBO budget for that episode... it was like Lord of the Rings out there.The books really are good. If you have the time you really should check them out.
Bit of a spoiler: I couldn't help myself so I went online to find out if so-and-so dies or if he just ends up with a nasty scar. Turns out it will be a scar. Poor guy is going to be stuck in a makeup chair for 3 hours before every shoot for now on. Bummer. While researching what the scar may look like (man I hope they don't make it as brutal as the book sounds) I accidentally saw who so-and-so eventually marries. What the..?? Crazy. That's not the first time I've accidentally spoiled a key plot point for myself, but thankfully so much happens in this show that I've already forgotten what I've already spoiled for myself. Lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR9tn6Ms-2g&feature=player_embeddedHahahahah TP. That was hilarious, especially Ser Jorah.
NSFW, some language, but if you've watched Game Of Thrones, you're used to that stuff anyways.
a note before the actual post :book 3 is widely considered the best in the series, though i enjoyed the 5th book the best. Martin broke up book 4 and 5 into sections, which focus on various regions so you go the entire book 4 without any story on many of the main characters and you get a lot of new characters right at the start so it is a bit slow at the beginning. It does pick up though.
If you haven`t read the books DO IT NOW !!!
and now to my main comment (don`t read it`s the definition of spoiler!!!)
i`ve just finished the 3rd book ... i guess there are too many surprises waiting in the next books but i feel a little unconfortable with all these resurrections .... Dondarrion , Katlyn Stark .. who`s next? (no wait don`t answer that!!)
I tried tackling the first book, but man. It is quite an intimidating book. Oh well.
I tried tackling the first book, but man. It is quite an intimidating book
Anybody watch episode 4?Yup it was awesome. Totally predictable, but awesome. It would have been less predictable had we not already seen how she handled the Warlock guy last season. Still... it was everything you could have wanted from that scene :)
Amazing. Utterly Amazing.
Dany would look good in a Celtics jersey.
It is also almost exactly as it transpired in the book, but even still I thought it was a very powerful scene. The unsullied with the banging of their staffs was awesome. You could just feel the energy.Anybody watch episode 4?Yup it was awesome. Totally predictable, but awesome. It would have been less predictable had we not already seen how she handled the Warlock guy last season. Still... it was everything you could have wanted from that scene :)
Amazing. Utterly Amazing.
Dany would look good in a Celtics jersey.
It is also almost exactly as it transpired in the book, but even still I thought it was a very powerful scene. The unsullied with the banging of their staffs was awesome. You could just feel the energy.Anybody watch episode 4?Yup it was awesome. Totally predictable, but awesome. It would have been less predictable had we not already seen how she handled the Warlock guy last season. Still... it was everything you could have wanted from that scene :)
Amazing. Utterly Amazing.
Dany would look good in a Celtics jersey.
Am I the only one here who wants to beat the heck out of Joffrey?
I'm glad Tyrion embarrassed "the King" in front of everyone in the little brat couldn't do nothing.
Am I the only one here who wants to beat the heck out of Joffrey?
Game Of Thrones is the heart-breaking overtime loss by the underdog of books/TV shows.
Everytime you start to root for a character/think the over-arching plot is actually going somewhere, they die/it doesn't.
I'm actually a little bitter that GoT is so critically acclaimed and widely watched. Screw George RR Martin and his 'homeless Santa' beard.
Am I the only one here who wants to beat the heck out of Joffrey?
The question is: would you like for him to share the fate of Theon Greyjoy?
The books are excellent. You really should read them. And I'd be curious who you think is going to die soon. Private message who you think it is. I won't tell you if you are right or not, I'm just curious.Game Of Thrones is the heart-breaking overtime loss by the underdog of books/TV shows.
Everytime you start to root for a character/think the over-arching plot is actually going somewhere, they die/it doesn't.
I'm actually a little bitter that GoT is so critically acclaimed and widely watched. Screw George RR Martin and his 'homeless Santa' beard.
I haven't read the books but my understanding is the big metatheme is deconstructing the common tropes of fantasy writing. Hence all the badasses laid low in the most mundane ways, buildups to epic confrontations that fall apart or take an unexpected turn, and "good guys" who really are just a different shade of gray than the "villains".
For what it is, I like it a lot. The characters feel more like humans than one-note archetypes, and it's very hard to tell what's going to happen next, except for a few telegraphed events like Danaerys torching the slavers and the major characters I think are going to die very soon (not a book reader, but the signs are so clear to me that I don't want to name names).
The question is: would you like for him to share the fate of Theon Greyjoy?
Game Of Thrones is the heart-breaking overtime loss by the underdog of books/TV shows.
Everytime you start to root for a character/think the over-arching plot is actually going somewhere, they die/it doesn't.
I'm actually a little bitter that GoT is so critically acclaimed and widely watched. Screw George RR Martin and his 'homeless Santa' beard.
I haven't read the books but my understanding is the big metatheme is deconstructing the common tropes of fantasy writing. Hence all the badasses laid low in the most mundane ways, buildups to epic confrontations that fall apart or take an unexpected turn, and "good guys" who really are just a different shade of gray than the "villains".
For what it is, I like it a lot. The characters feel more like humans than one-note archetypes, and it's very hard to tell what's going to happen next, except for a few telegraphed events like Danaerys torching the slavers and the major characters I think are going to die very soon (not a book reader, but the signs are so clear to me that I don't want to name names).
The books just fall apart after the third novel, no longer enjoyable to read anymore. Much better for me to just read the wiki on what's happening because the words on the page become a massive chore even for me as an avid reader.Have you read the fifth book? I didn't really enjoy the fourth book because it mostly focused on the character I wasn't interested in but I thought the fifth book was very good.
Quanity of words and characters goes up, quality of writing goes to nothing.
No I haven't because the quality decline started in the third and continued for the fourth.The books just fall apart after the third novel, no longer enjoyable to read anymore. Much better for me to just read the wiki on what's happening because the words on the page become a massive chore even for me as an avid reader.Have you read the fifth book? I didn't really enjoy the fourth book because it mostly focused on the character I wasn't interested in but I thought the fifth book was very good.
Quanity of words and characters goes up, quality of writing goes to nothing.
I would advise you to give the fifth book a try, then again I read all of the Wheel of Time books (Robert Jordan)No I haven't because the quality decline started in the third and continued for the fourth.The books just fall apart after the third novel, no longer enjoyable to read anymore. Much better for me to just read the wiki on what's happening because the words on the page become a massive chore even for me as an avid reader.Have you read the fifth book? I didn't really enjoy the fourth book because it mostly focused on the character I wasn't interested in but I thought the fifth book was very good.
Quanity of words and characters goes up, quality of writing goes to nothing.
No reason to spend my money on it, especially when I've seen authors have the same thing happen to them before (Robert Jordan being the most famous recent example)
I suppose I could borrow it as I certainly have many friends who own it but as a consquence of the lackluster last two books I read I've stopped caring.
No I haven't because the quality decline started in the third and continued for the fourth.The books just fall apart after the third novel, no longer enjoyable to read anymore. Much better for me to just read the wiki on what's happening because the words on the page become a massive chore even for me as an avid reader.Have you read the fifth book? I didn't really enjoy the fourth book because it mostly focused on the character I wasn't interested in but I thought the fifth book was very good.
Quanity of words and characters goes up, quality of writing goes to nothing.
No reason to spend my money on it, especially when I've seen authors have the same thing happen to them before (Robert Jordan being the most famous recent example)
I suppose I could borrow it as I certainly have many friends who own it but as a consquence of the lackluster last two books I read I've stopped caring.
The books are excellent. You really should read them. And I'd be curious who you think is going to die soon. Private message who you think it is. I won't tell you if you are right or not, I'm just curious.Game Of Thrones is the heart-breaking overtime loss by the underdog of books/TV shows.
Everytime you start to root for a character/think the over-arching plot is actually going somewhere, they die/it doesn't.
I'm actually a little bitter that GoT is so critically acclaimed and widely watched. Screw George RR Martin and his 'homeless Santa' beard.
I haven't read the books but my understanding is the big metatheme is deconstructing the common tropes of fantasy writing. Hence all the badasses laid low in the most mundane ways, buildups to epic confrontations that fall apart or take an unexpected turn, and "good guys" who really are just a different shade of gray than the "villains".
For what it is, I like it a lot. The characters feel more like humans than one-note archetypes, and it's very hard to tell what's going to happen next, except for a few telegraphed events like Danaerys torching the slavers and the major characters I think are going to die very soon (not a book reader, but the signs are so clear to me that I don't want to name names).
I think a lot of the stuff going on may make a lot more sense once we find out how the series ends. Things that maybe don't make sense now might later. Then again they might not, but Martin has said he has known how the story was going to go from the start and his writing is just filling in the spaces. He has taken very few detours or changes of direction in the overall story and scheme. He just wrote a lot more than he thought which has extended the series. It will be interesting to see how he does close out the series.Game Of Thrones is the heart-breaking overtime loss by the underdog of books/TV shows.
Everytime you start to root for a character/think the over-arching plot is actually going somewhere, they die/it doesn't.
I'm actually a little bitter that GoT is so critically acclaimed and widely watched. Screw George RR Martin and his 'homeless Santa' beard.
I haven't read the books but my understanding is the big metatheme is deconstructing the common tropes of fantasy writing. Hence all the badasses laid low in the most mundane ways, buildups to epic confrontations that fall apart or take an unexpected turn, and "good guys" who really are just a different shade of gray than the "villains".
For what it is, I like it a lot. The characters feel more like humans than one-note archetypes, and it's very hard to tell what's going to happen next, except for a few telegraphed events like Danaerys torching the slavers and the major characters I think are going to die very soon (not a book reader, but the signs are so clear to me that I don't want to name names).
The thing about GoT (or more aptly A Song Of Ice and Fire, the books..the TV show has Peter Dinklage and I can't get mad at him) is that the whole idea of the 'meta deconstruction' by killing off major characters spontaneously, or having large moments occur spontaneously (the death of ___ ____ at the end of the most recent book is a great example of this, or the death of ____ _________ by his ___ while he escapes after _____ _______) or the moral apathy of _____ _________'s actions the closer he gets to his eventual goal are great examples of flying in the face of traditional fantasy. It's absolutely a valid observation of the works.
But, because of that pattern, there is no central story. You start out the very first book with the white walkers. You start out the second book with the white walkers. White walkers happen sporadically throughout the rest of the books. Guess what we know about the white walkers after 4300 pages or, in my case, over 200 hours of audiobooks? Nothing! We know nothing, Jon Snow!
But meanwhile, all this other crap is going on that ultimately amounts to nothing more than B-stories when there isn't an A-story. And that's not all bad, it happens in a lot of series. Robert Jordan's life's work the Wheel Of Time series has that stuff happen fairly frequently.
But the nagging feeling you'll get if you read the books and, like me, tend to critique what you're reading as often as you enjoy reading it, all the 'meta' garbage is really just a facade to get you to read an elongated novelization of All My Children, with dragons and swords, and gratuitous sex scenes. Its guy-soaps (which is unfair to the women who also love these books..its fantasy-nerd-soaps)
It would be like if you were to write a series of books, with a strong male protagonist and multiple strong female protagonists. None of them are your barbie-doll types, they're intelligent, self-aware, and they all happen to be maddeningly in love with the male protagonist. Also, there is magic and blood and sex and stuff.
And people would say, 'wow! look at how deftly he shrugged the 'guy meets girl' paradigm, look how he defies the barbie doll female archtype!'
But you know its just a glorified harem.
I actually didn't mind the 4th book, but it introduces a lot of new characters (and does so right at the start) and focuses a great deal on one of my least favorite characters so it was a pain to really get into. Once into it though I felt it moved along quick enough and was easy enough to read. The 5th book I found to be pretty good overall, but it ends before the two battles that were foreshadowed all book long happen, which was incredibly annoying.The books are excellent. You really should read them. And I'd be curious who you think is going to die soon. Private message who you think it is. I won't tell you if you are right or not, I'm just curious.Game Of Thrones is the heart-breaking overtime loss by the underdog of books/TV shows.
Everytime you start to root for a character/think the over-arching plot is actually going somewhere, they die/it doesn't.
I'm actually a little bitter that GoT is so critically acclaimed and widely watched. Screw George RR Martin and his 'homeless Santa' beard.
I haven't read the books but my understanding is the big metatheme is deconstructing the common tropes of fantasy writing. Hence all the badasses laid low in the most mundane ways, buildups to epic confrontations that fall apart or take an unexpected turn, and "good guys" who really are just a different shade of gray than the "villains".
For what it is, I like it a lot. The characters feel more like humans than one-note archetypes, and it's very hard to tell what's going to happen next, except for a few telegraphed events like Danaerys torching the slavers and the major characters I think are going to die very soon (not a book reader, but the signs are so clear to me that I don't want to name names).
PM sent sir.
I'd like to read the books, but the vibe I get about the series is that the good books will mostly be rehashes of what I've already seen, and then the newest ones are supposed to be kinda crappy and will (mostly) spoil the rest of the show to boot.
Yeah I stopped after 7, which is where Jordan ran out of good ideas and just started playing around in the world he clearly spent so much time creating.I would advise you to give the fifth book a try, then again I read all of the Wheel of Time books (Robert Jordan)No I haven't because the quality decline started in the third and continued for the fourth.The books just fall apart after the third novel, no longer enjoyable to read anymore. Much better for me to just read the wiki on what's happening because the words on the page become a massive chore even for me as an avid reader.Have you read the fifth book? I didn't really enjoy the fourth book because it mostly focused on the character I wasn't interested in but I thought the fifth book was very good.
Quanity of words and characters goes up, quality of writing goes to nothing.
No reason to spend my money on it, especially when I've seen authors have the same thing happen to them before (Robert Jordan being the most famous recent example)
I suppose I could borrow it as I certainly have many friends who own it but as a consquence of the lackluster last two books I read I've stopped caring.
I doubt it will make more sense, the broad "historical" arc probably will but that's all. No way to make the mess of themese/characters come together at this point, which is why so many suspect the mess is the point.I think a lot of the stuff going on may make a lot more sense once we find out how the series ends. Things that maybe don't make sense now might later. Then again they might not, but Martin has said he has known how the story was going to go from the start and his writing is just filling in the spaces. He has taken very few detours or changes of direction in the overall story and scheme. He just wrote a lot more than he thought which has extended the series. It will be interesting to see how he does close out the series.Game Of Thrones is the heart-breaking overtime loss by the underdog of books/TV shows.
Everytime you start to root for a character/think the over-arching plot is actually going somewhere, they die/it doesn't.
I'm actually a little bitter that GoT is so critically acclaimed and widely watched. Screw George RR Martin and his 'homeless Santa' beard.
I haven't read the books but my understanding is the big metatheme is deconstructing the common tropes of fantasy writing. Hence all the badasses laid low in the most mundane ways, buildups to epic confrontations that fall apart or take an unexpected turn, and "good guys" who really are just a different shade of gray than the "villains".
For what it is, I like it a lot. The characters feel more like humans than one-note archetypes, and it's very hard to tell what's going to happen next, except for a few telegraphed events like Danaerys torching the slavers and the major characters I think are going to die very soon (not a book reader, but the signs are so clear to me that I don't want to name names).
The thing about GoT (or more aptly A Song Of Ice and Fire, the books..the TV show has Peter Dinklage and I can't get mad at him) is that the whole idea of the 'meta deconstruction' by killing off major characters spontaneously, or having large moments occur spontaneously (the death of ___ ____ at the end of the most recent book is a great example of this, or the death of ____ _________ by his ___ while he escapes after _____ _______) or the moral apathy of _____ _________'s actions the closer he gets to his eventual goal are great examples of flying in the face of traditional fantasy. It's absolutely a valid observation of the works.
But, because of that pattern, there is no central story. You start out the very first book with the white walkers. You start out the second book with the white walkers. White walkers happen sporadically throughout the rest of the books. Guess what we know about the white walkers after 4300 pages or, in my case, over 200 hours of audiobooks? Nothing! We know nothing, Jon Snow!
But meanwhile, all this other crap is going on that ultimately amounts to nothing more than B-stories when there isn't an A-story. And that's not all bad, it happens in a lot of series. Robert Jordan's life's work the Wheel Of Time series has that stuff happen fairly frequently.
But the nagging feeling you'll get if you read the books and, like me, tend to critique what you're reading as often as you enjoy reading it, all the 'meta' garbage is really just a facade to get you to read an elongated novelization of All My Children, with dragons and swords, and gratuitous sex scenes. Its guy-soaps (which is unfair to the women who also love these books..its fantasy-nerd-soaps)
It would be like if you were to write a series of books, with a strong male protagonist and multiple strong female protagonists. None of them are your barbie-doll types, they're intelligent, self-aware, and they all happen to be maddeningly in love with the male protagonist. Also, there is magic and blood and sex and stuff.
And people would say, 'wow! look at how deftly he shrugged the 'guy meets girl' paradigm, look how he defies the barbie doll female archtype!'
But you know its just a glorified harem.
Yeah I stopped after 7, which is where Jordan ran out of good ideas and just started playing around in the world he clearly spent so much time creating.I would advise you to give the fifth book a try, then again I read all of the Wheel of Time books (Robert Jordan)No I haven't because the quality decline started in the third and continued for the fourth.The books just fall apart after the third novel, no longer enjoyable to read anymore. Much better for me to just read the wiki on what's happening because the words on the page become a massive chore even for me as an avid reader.Have you read the fifth book? I didn't really enjoy the fourth book because it mostly focused on the character I wasn't interested in but I thought the fifth book was very good.
Quanity of words and characters goes up, quality of writing goes to nothing.
No reason to spend my money on it, especially when I've seen authors have the same thing happen to them before (Robert Jordan being the most famous recent example)
I suppose I could borrow it as I certainly have many friends who own it but as a consquence of the lackluster last two books I read I've stopped caring.
By all the descriptions of of the 5th book and future books its the same with Martin. Writing/pacing/ is secondary compared to fully fleshing out the "world" that he's created.
Wikipedia plot summary's will give me the same enjoyment. I probably will sit down and watch the TV series at some point.
I don't know. I can kind of see where he is going and what could happen and how he would tie everything together. I also find the criticism of the books a bit much. I don't think he describes things with all this great detail. I do think there are probably too many characters and his jumping around from character to character with no real regard to time has gotten old as have a couple of story lines. I just don't see this on and on describing of background, meals, etc. as having all that much merit.I doubt it will make more sense, the broad "historical" arc probably will but that's all. No way to make the mess of themese/characters come together at this point, which is why so many suspect the mess is the point.I think a lot of the stuff going on may make a lot more sense once we find out how the series ends. Things that maybe don't make sense now might later. Then again they might not, but Martin has said he has known how the story was going to go from the start and his writing is just filling in the spaces. He has taken very few detours or changes of direction in the overall story and scheme. He just wrote a lot more than he thought which has extended the series. It will be interesting to see how he does close out the series.Game Of Thrones is the heart-breaking overtime loss by the underdog of books/TV shows.
Everytime you start to root for a character/think the over-arching plot is actually going somewhere, they die/it doesn't.
I'm actually a little bitter that GoT is so critically acclaimed and widely watched. Screw George RR Martin and his 'homeless Santa' beard.
I haven't read the books but my understanding is the big metatheme is deconstructing the common tropes of fantasy writing. Hence all the badasses laid low in the most mundane ways, buildups to epic confrontations that fall apart or take an unexpected turn, and "good guys" who really are just a different shade of gray than the "villains".
For what it is, I like it a lot. The characters feel more like humans than one-note archetypes, and it's very hard to tell what's going to happen next, except for a few telegraphed events like Danaerys torching the slavers and the major characters I think are going to die very soon (not a book reader, but the signs are so clear to me that I don't want to name names).
The thing about GoT (or more aptly A Song Of Ice and Fire, the books..the TV show has Peter Dinklage and I can't get mad at him) is that the whole idea of the 'meta deconstruction' by killing off major characters spontaneously, or having large moments occur spontaneously (the death of ___ ____ at the end of the most recent book is a great example of this, or the death of ____ _________ by his ___ while he escapes after _____ _______) or the moral apathy of _____ _________'s actions the closer he gets to his eventual goal are great examples of flying in the face of traditional fantasy. It's absolutely a valid observation of the works.
But, because of that pattern, there is no central story. You start out the very first book with the white walkers. You start out the second book with the white walkers. White walkers happen sporadically throughout the rest of the books. Guess what we know about the white walkers after 4300 pages or, in my case, over 200 hours of audiobooks? Nothing! We know nothing, Jon Snow!
But meanwhile, all this other crap is going on that ultimately amounts to nothing more than B-stories when there isn't an A-story. And that's not all bad, it happens in a lot of series. Robert Jordan's life's work the Wheel Of Time series has that stuff happen fairly frequently.
But the nagging feeling you'll get if you read the books and, like me, tend to critique what you're reading as often as you enjoy reading it, all the 'meta' garbage is really just a facade to get you to read an elongated novelization of All My Children, with dragons and swords, and gratuitous sex scenes. Its guy-soaps (which is unfair to the women who also love these books..its fantasy-nerd-soaps)
It would be like if you were to write a series of books, with a strong male protagonist and multiple strong female protagonists. None of them are your barbie-doll types, they're intelligent, self-aware, and they all happen to be maddeningly in love with the male protagonist. Also, there is magic and blood and sex and stuff.
And people would say, 'wow! look at how deftly he shrugged the 'guy meets girl' paradigm, look how he defies the barbie doll female archtype!'
But you know its just a glorified harem.
Coming up with a good premise and using up most your initial juice as a writer is what starts series like these. It natural to run out of gas quickly and for the quality to decline. I can finish series that remain readable, which given how most "big time" fantasy authors bloat their later books isn't what the writers want to do when they've won control via the success of the early books.
And clearly I'm in the minority of fantasy fans, people eat up the later books faster than the early ones usually.
For me having read the books and knowing what is going to happen has made the show less enjoyable that it is for those who come in with a blank slate.Yeah I stopped after 7, which is where Jordan ran out of good ideas and just started playing around in the world he clearly spent so much time creating.I would advise you to give the fifth book a try, then again I read all of the Wheel of Time books (Robert Jordan)No I haven't because the quality decline started in the third and continued for the fourth.The books just fall apart after the third novel, no longer enjoyable to read anymore. Much better for me to just read the wiki on what's happening because the words on the page become a massive chore even for me as an avid reader.Have you read the fifth book? I didn't really enjoy the fourth book because it mostly focused on the character I wasn't interested in but I thought the fifth book was very good.
Quanity of words and characters goes up, quality of writing goes to nothing.
No reason to spend my money on it, especially when I've seen authors have the same thing happen to them before (Robert Jordan being the most famous recent example)
I suppose I could borrow it as I certainly have many friends who own it but as a consquence of the lackluster last two books I read I've stopped caring.
By all the descriptions of of the 5th book and future books its the same with Martin. Writing/pacing/ is secondary compared to fully fleshing out the "world" that he's created.
Wikipedia plot summary's will give me the same enjoyment. I probably will sit down and watch the TV series at some point.
I'll take a look at my bookshelves and jot down a list later tonight.For me having read the books and knowing what is going to happen has made the show less enjoyable that it is for those who come in with a blank slate.Yeah I stopped after 7, which is where Jordan ran out of good ideas and just started playing around in the world he clearly spent so much time creating.I would advise you to give the fifth book a try, then again I read all of the Wheel of Time books (Robert Jordan)No I haven't because the quality decline started in the third and continued for the fourth.The books just fall apart after the third novel, no longer enjoyable to read anymore. Much better for me to just read the wiki on what's happening because the words on the page become a massive chore even for me as an avid reader.Have you read the fifth book? I didn't really enjoy the fourth book because it mostly focused on the character I wasn't interested in but I thought the fifth book was very good.
Quanity of words and characters goes up, quality of writing goes to nothing.
No reason to spend my money on it, especially when I've seen authors have the same thing happen to them before (Robert Jordan being the most famous recent example)
I suppose I could borrow it as I certainly have many friends who own it but as a consquence of the lackluster last two books I read I've stopped caring.
By all the descriptions of of the 5th book and future books its the same with Martin. Writing/pacing/ is secondary compared to fully fleshing out the "world" that he's created.
Wikipedia plot summary's will give me the same enjoyment. I probably will sit down and watch the TV series at some point.
If you decide to continue your hold out it could make watching the show that much better.
Since you and IP seem to be well versed in fantasy do you have any recommendations for me in this genre? Post them or send me a pm if you have the time. It would be greatly appreciated.
knew it was coming, but man that was still powerful.Right?! I watched it with my mom (non-book reader) and her reaction was absolutely pricelss!! ;D
my wife and I both read the books but that didn't stop my wife from peeking out from under a blanket. She refused to fully watch.knew it was coming, but man that was still powerful.Right?! I watched it with my mom (non-book reader) and her reaction was absolutely pricelss!! ;D
She declared for the millionth time that she's done watching GoT ;D
knew it was coming, but man that was still powerful.
(episode 9 spoilers)It's not over for the Starks, methinks.
...I'm almost as heartbroken as the 2010 Finals, Game 7.
WHY!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!?!!!!!!!!
WHY MUST THIS HAVE HAD TO HAVE HAPPENED?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
To me, this was more heart wrenching than Ned dying because I didn't really expect something of that magnitude. I mean, at least they could've let baby Eddard live...or his wife...or Lady Stark (for sentimental value)......or the dire wolf....... :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
I just discovered GoT earlier the year and I am so hooked. I've been catching up on the episodes and have read the 1st book. I can't wait to catch up in the summer, after the final episode. Does anybody know if it'd be a good idea to start on the 4th book after watching the 3rd episode? Or should I read the 3rd first?
I did not see that coming at all - I was thinking that Robb was probably going to die because of the Melisandre slug thing (Can we do that against Lebron's basketball skill?), as well as Joffrey. I didn't see it being a complete massacre, though......... :'( :'( :'(
(episode 9 spoilers)It's not over for the Starks, methinks.
...I'm almost as heartbroken as the 2010 Finals, Game 7.
WHY!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!?!!!!!!!!
WHY MUST THIS HAVE HAD TO HAVE HAPPENED?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
To me, this was more heart wrenching than Ned dying because I didn't really expect something of that magnitude. I mean, at least they could've let baby Eddard live...or his wife...or Lady Stark (for sentimental value)......or the dire wolf....... :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
I just discovered GoT earlier the year and I am so hooked. I've been catching up on the episodes and have read the 1st book. I can't wait to catch up in the summer, after the final episode. Does anybody know if it'd be a good idea to start on the 4th book after watching the 3rd episode? Or should I read the 3rd first?
I did not see that coming at all - I was thinking that Robb was probably going to die because of the Melisandre slug thing (Can we do that against Lebron's basketball skill?), as well as Joffrey. I didn't see it being a complete massacre, though......... :'( :'( :'(
That epic scene cant put me to sleep. I did not see that slaughter happened. Part of me almost cried when Talisa got stabbed right in the belly.
And Arya to be so close then realize what is really going on when she saw the dire wolf get bowed.
Oh my lord what a sad yet masterfully made episode.
That epic scene cant put me to sleep. I did not see that slaughter happened. Part of me almost cried when Talisa got stabbed right in the belly.
And Arya to be so close then realize what is really going on when she saw the dire wolf get bowed.
Oh my lord what a sad yet masterfully made episode.
I haven't read the books so no spoilers here just guesses... but I think Arya is going to become a badass warrior some day. Jaqen, the faceless man from Braavos, was probably my favorite character on the show. He gave Arya an open invitation to come to Braavos, but she decided to find her brother and mother instead. Now that that ship has sailed, I'm going to guess she gets her butt to Braavos for some badass training. During her conversation with the Hound she talked about the faceless man. When she told the Hound that someday she'd stab him through the eye out the back of his head... I believe her.
(http://geek-news.mtv.com//wp-content/uploads/geek/2012/06/facelessman_600.gif)
What I'm wondering is though... if she does decide to go to Braavos, would they show her journey and training there?... or do you think she'll just venture to Braavos... then we will not see her for a few seasons and she'll make a surprise return some day in some epic fashion? Can't wait to find out. It's a great show.
(episode 9 spoilers)the third season is not the whole third book, so you need to read the third book before reading the fourth book.
...I'm almost as heartbroken as the 2010 Finals, Game 7.
WHY!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!?!!!!!!!!
WHY MUST THIS HAVE HAD TO HAVE HAPPENED?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
To me, this was more heart wrenching than Ned dying because I didn't really expect something of that magnitude. I mean, at least they could've let baby Eddard live...or his wife...or Lady Stark (for sentimental value)......or the dire wolf....... :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
I just discovered GoT earlier the year and I am so hooked. I've been catching up on the episodes and have read the 1st book. I can't wait to catch up in the summer, after the final episode. Does anybody know if it'd be a good idea to start on the 4th book after watching the 3rd episode? Or should I read the 3rd first?
I did not see that coming at all - I was thinking that Robb was probably going to die because of the Melisandre slug thing (Can we do that against Lebron's basketball skill?), as well as Joffrey. I didn't see it being a complete massacre, though......... :'( :'( :'(
Arya seems to be the instrument of revenge to me.
That epic scene cant put me to sleep. I did not see that slaughter happened. Part of me almost cried when Talisa got stabbed right in the belly.
And Arya to be so close then realize what is really going on when she saw the dire wolf get bowed.
Oh my lord what a sad yet masterfully made episode.
I haven't read the books so no spoilers here just guesses... but I think Arya is going to become a badass warrior some day. Jaqen, the faceless man from Braavos, was probably my favorite character on the show. He gave Arya an open invitation to come to Braavos, but she decided to find her brother and mother instead. Now that that ship has sailed, I'm going to guess she gets her butt to Braavos for some badass training. During her conversation with the Hound she talked about the faceless man. When she told the Hound that someday she'd stab him through the eye out the back of his head... I believe her.
(http://geek-news.mtv.com//wp-content/uploads/geek/2012/06/facelessman_600.gif)
What I'm wondering is though... if she does decide to go to Braavos, would they show her journey and training there?... or do you think she'll just venture to Braavos... then we will not see her for a few seasons and she'll make a surprise return some day in some epic fashion? Can't wait to find out. It's a great show.
It is so bad that I doubt that they are even that important for the main story line by book 7.
I've read all the books but after seeing last night's episode it makes me think. Has there ever been a protagonist family that so much bad happens to?considering certain characters in the family are still very strong in the series and others haven't been heard from in awhile (but are presumably alive), I would find that hard to believe.
It is so bad that I doubt that they are even that important for the main story line by book 7.
I've read all the books but after seeing last night's episode it makes me think. Has there ever been a protagonist family that so much bad happens to?
That epic scene cant put me to sleep. I did not see that slaughter happened. Part of me almost cried when Talisa got stabbed right in the belly.
And Arya to be so close then realize what is really going on when she saw the dire wolf get bowed.
Oh my lord what a sad yet masterfully made episode.
I haven't read the books so no spoilers here just guesses... but I think Arya is going to become a badass warrior some day. Jaqen, the faceless man from Braavos, was probably my favorite character on the show. He gave Arya an open invitation to come to Braavos, but she decided to find her brother and mother instead. Now that that ship has sailed, I'm going to guess she gets her butt to Braavos for some badass training. During her conversation with the Hound she talked about the faceless man. When she told the Hound that someday she'd stab him through the eye out the back of his head... I believe her.
(http://geek-news.mtv.com//wp-content/uploads/geek/2012/06/facelessman_600.gif)
What I'm wondering is though... if she does decide to go to Braavos, would they show her journey and training there?... or do you think she'll just venture to Braavos... then we will not see her for a few seasons and she'll make a surprise return some day in some epic fashion? Can't wait to find out. It's a great show.
Haven't read the books either. To me it's looking like Arya will become one of the Faceless "dudes" (i forgot their name). The way everyone is dying around her, it's just a matter of time before she loses that Stark honor and mercy and just starts killing cold blooded out of sheer revenge.
I agree, it's not a matter of if but when will Arya will go to Bravos and be one of them. And I hope you're right, they should show how Arya turns in this cold blooded, efficient assassin.
It is so bad that I doubt that they are even that important for the main story line by book 7.
This is one of the more interesting things about this series.
It covers such a broad group of characters and families, and really doesn't always make it 100% clear who is the protagonist and who is the antagonist. It is just constantly evolving, which keeps it interesting.
It is so bad that I doubt that they are even that important for the main story line by book 7.
This is one of the more interesting things about this series.
It covers such a broad group of characters and families, and really doesn't always make it 100% clear who is the protagonist and who is the antagonist. It is just constantly evolving, which keeps it interesting.
I haven't read the books, but honestly I never got the impression Robb Stark was a main character. He seemed far less important than Arya, Brann
"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."
Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone
That's interesting about Jon Snow. I listened to a podcast with the show runners and they were talking about their first meeting with G.R.R Martin. Martin wanted to test them on whether or not they were actually fans and had read the books... so his question to them was "Who is Jon Snow's real mother?"... apparently it was a bit of a trick question, because the books had not yet revealed who his real mother was... but they apparently guessed correctly based on some hunches. So I've been aware that there is some mystery as to who his real mother is... and I had to assume it was a Targaryen otherwise it wouldn't be all that compelling. But I hadn't considered the possibility that Eddard isn't his real father. Interesting. But that does make sense... I had read on the wiki that part of the lead-up to the rebellion was that Rhager Targaryen had abducted Eddard's sister.QuoteI haven't read the books, but honestly I never got the impression Robb Stark was a main character. He seemed far less important than Arya, Brann
He was not, he was not a narrator character. Hint the point of views ( narrators) are the important ones as I see it.
Keep in mind the prophecy of the land, which the series has only hinted at through MelisandreQuote"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."
and thisQuoteAzor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone
Melisandre thinks it is Stannis. A lot of folk think this means Daeneyrs and some think it is Jon. But the prophecy in the book implies a rebirth of some type. Jon may well be a Targaryen as well. Recall he is a **** but we never know the circumstances. Some think Rhaegar Targaryen is the father and Lyanna Stark was his mother and Ned raised him as his own. That would make Daenyrs his aunt.
Rob never was a main character. This is loosely based off the war or roses. The Lancasters vs York was that fight here we have the Lannisters and Starks. But all this war between the family is action that is not as important as the prophecy and the Others.
Whomever fulfills this is the most important character.
While its very tragic, am I the only one here who thinks "Robb had this coming, and brought everyone he loves in to doom"?Nope. One does not simply play the Game of Thrones with Tywin Lannister.
While its very tragic, am I the only one here who thinks "Robb had this coming, and brought everyone he loves in to doom"?Robb Stark was immature and young and was playing the Game of Thrones versus an expert, Tywin Lannister. When you step back and look at the situation, I think it is easier to say that Robb just made mistakes that youth make, not that he deserved what happened.
While its very tragic, am I the only one here who thinks "Robb had this coming, and brought everyone he loves in to doom"?Robb Stark was immature and young and was playing the Game of Thrones versus an expert, Tywin Lannister. When you step back and look at the situation, I think it is easier to say that Robb just made mistakes that youth make, not that he deserved what happened.
While its very tragic, am I the only one here who thinks "Robb had this coming, and brought everyone he loves in to doom"?
There are a lot of incredible theories in game of thrones.That's interesting about Jon Snow. I listened to a podcast with the show runners and they were talking about their first meeting with G.R.R Martin. Martin wanted to test them on whether or not they were actually fans and had read the books... so his question to them was "Who is Jon Snow's real mother?"... apparently it was a bit of a trick question, because the books had not yet revealed who his real mother was... but they apparently guessed correctly based on some hunches. So I've been aware that there is some mystery as to who his real mother is... and I had to assume it was a Targaryen otherwise it wouldn't be all that compelling. But I hadn't considered the possibility that Eddard isn't his real father. Interesting. But that does make sense... I had read on the wiki that part of the lead-up to the rebellion was that Rhager Targaryen had abducted Eddard's sister.QuoteI haven't read the books, but honestly I never got the impression Robb Stark was a main character. He seemed far less important than Arya, Brann
He was not, he was not a narrator character. Hint the point of views ( narrators) are the important ones as I see it.
Keep in mind the prophecy of the land, which the series has only hinted at through MelisandreQuote"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."
and thisQuoteAzor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone
Melisandre thinks it is Stannis. A lot of folk think this means Daeneyrs and some think it is Jon. But the prophecy in the book implies a rebirth of some type. Jon may well be a Targaryen as well. Recall he is a **** but we never know the circumstances. Some think Rhaegar Targaryen is the father and Lyanna Stark was his mother and Ned raised him as his own. That would make Daenyrs his aunt.
Rob never was a main character. This is loosely based off the war or roses. The Lancasters vs York was that fight here we have the Lannisters and Starks. But all this war between the family is action that is not as important as the prophecy and the Others.
Whomever fulfills this is the most important character.
Probably don't say any more on that... seems like book spoiler territory.
The reaction compilation video to last night's episode is priceless:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78juOpTM3tE
Oh I guess last night was a bit of a surprise for book readers as well. I just found out that in the books Robb's wife is a completely different character with a different name... She's never pregnant and she isn't even at the wedding in the books. She's just a minor character who doesn't do much. So the whole baby-stabbing thing was a little extra TV carnage.I am pretty sure she was there but she was not killed and you don't know if she was pregnant.
I thought she was killed can't remember if she was pregnant.Oh I guess last night was a bit of a surprise for book readers as well. I just found out that in the books Robb's wife is a completely different character with a different name... She's never pregnant and she isn't even at the wedding in the books. She's just a minor character who doesn't do much. So the whole baby-stabbing thing was a little extra TV carnage.I am pretty sure she was there but she was not killed and you don't know if she was pregnant.
She wasn't. I looked it up. She's not an important character... Otherwise her son/daughter could have been a factor and killing her off on the tv show would have been an issueOh I guess last night was a bit of a surprise for book readers as well. I just found out that in the books Robb's wife is a completely different character with a different name... She's never pregnant and she isn't even at the wedding in the books. She's just a minor character who doesn't do much. So the whole baby-stabbing thing was a little extra TV carnage.I am pretty sure she was there but she was not killed and you don't know if she was pregnant.
haven't read the books.Same here. Agree on everything you said. From the first season the Starks were portrayed as the noble protagonists, and it's just strange to me that they keep getting killed off. Ned's killing was a complete surprise to me too.
couldn't believe that episode -- never saw it coming. for that matter, didn't see Ned getting it either. unbelievable. had a feeling something was going to happen -- that all would not be easily forgiven -- but didn't see that coming. man I hate the Lannisters (except Tyrion)
Could someone do me a solid - I just acquired Storm of Swords, and I'm not a fan of repetitive reading/watching.That's probably a bad idea and I haven't read the books, but here is my suggestion.... Just start reading and if you come to a character you are unfamiliar with, pull up one of the game of thrones dedicated wiki pages. They usually have breakdowns of who they are and everything they do in each book. Just don't skip ahead. That's basically what I do when watching the show and I hear a name I'm unfamiliar with.
I found a good place to start - right before the Red Wedding.
What are some of the most important plots that are in the book that were not in the show that I should know about? Just a quick "there's him, and he does that" kinda thing.
Could someone do me a solid - I just acquired Storm of Swords, and I'm not a fan of repetitive reading/watching.
I found a good place to start - right before the Red Wedding.
What are some of the most important plots that are in the book that were not in the show that I should know about? Just a quick "there's him, and he does that" kinda thing.
In the books, it isn't clear whether or not Arya is still alive when she gets knocked out by Sandor. Martin ends a chapter with Arya getting taken out from behind. When I read that, I was like, "Really? On top of everything else, Arya is dead now, too?!"When I first read it I'm like she is not dead, but then it is like 200 pages before you get to her story again so I'm like, maybe she is dead.
I was a little disappointed they didn't create similar suspense around Arya's condition going into the next episode.
In the books, it isn't clear whether or not Arya is still alive when she gets knocked out by Sandor. Martin ends a chapter with Arya getting taken out from behind. When I read that, I was like, "Really? On top of everything else, Arya is dead now, too?!"When I first read it I'm like she is not dead, but then it is like 200 pages before you get to her story again so I'm like, maybe she is dead.
I was a little disappointed they didn't create similar suspense around Arya's condition going into the next episode.
I always found the story lines of Arya, Tyrion, Daenerys and Jon Snow to be the most compelling and feel they might be the most important, though obviously Bran's story line will be extremely important. I just never felt it very interesting.Can someone who has read all the books tell me (pm) their thoughts on Jon Snow.
I was disappointed not to see The Viper introduced this year as he should have been.
I always found the story lines of Arya, Tyrion, Daenerys and Jon Snow to be the most compelling
I've felt for a long time that Jon Snow is destined to be with Danaerys. Just makes too much sense with her being the mother of dragons and his last name being Snow.I think she ends up marrying Stannis. After all the red god has been able to do if the red priestess says he is the true king I believe her.
Obviously you never read the books.I always found the story lines of Arya, Tyrion, Daenerys and Jon Snow to be the most compelling
same here. I'd add Jamie Lannister to that mix as well.
for some reason I thought the Rob/Catelyn story line would eventually crossover to the Goffrey storyline and have a climactic ending/confrontation ending in one of their demises (hoping Little Finger would bite the dust in that storyline if possible).
so much for that.
Now my theories for the eventual storyline is either what's left of the Starks joins with Daenerys to overthrow Goffrey (Jon Snow is really fitting in here as her prospective ally/mate) OR the Starks (primarily Jon Snow now) overthrow Goffrey with the Wildings (which looks pretty slim now) and form a coalition of the remnants of Westeros to take on Daenerys.
I always found the story lines of Arya, Tyrion, Daenerys and Jon Snow to be the most compelling and feel they might be the most important, though obviously Bran's story line will be extremely important. I just never felt it very interesting.Can someone who has read all the books tell me (pm) their thoughts on Jon Snow.
I was disappointed not to see The Viper introduced this year as he should have been.
I've felt for a long time that Jon Snow is destined to be with Danaerys. Just makes too much sense with her being the mother of dragons and his last name being Snow.The argument someone made a couple pages ago that Jon Snow is Danaerys nephew is pretty compelling... though I guess that wouldn't necessarily throw out the possibility in this world.
I always found the story lines of Arya, Tyrion, Daenerys and Jon Snow to be the most compelling and feel they might be the most important, though obviously Bran's story line will be extremely important. I just never felt it very interesting.I'm pretty sure he doesn't show up until the last half of book 3, which isn't in this season at all.
I was disappointed not to see The Viper introduced this year as he should have been.
Tyrion met him on his way to Kings Landing and he is at the Royal Wedding in the book.I always found the story lines of Arya, Tyrion, Daenerys and Jon Snow to be the most compelling and feel they might be the most important, though obviously Bran's story line will be extremely important. I just never felt it very interesting.I'm pretty sure he doesn't show up until the last half of book 3, which isn't in this season at all.
I was disappointed not to see The Viper introduced this year as he should have been.
there are a lot of theories floating around the internet.I've felt for a long time that Jon Snow is destined to be with Danaerys. Just makes too much sense with her being the mother of dragons and his last name being Snow.The argument someone made a couple pages ago that Jon Snow is Danaerys nephew is pretty compelling... though I guess that wouldn't necessarily throw out the possibility in this world.
That would make sense. The book kind of intimated that Ned Stark wouldn't talk about the other woman because he was embarrassed he cheated. It would make a lot more sense if he didn't talk about her because doing so would be admitting to treason (having an affair with a royal member of a family you were at war with).I've felt for a long time that Jon Snow is destined to be with Danaerys. Just makes too much sense with her being the mother of dragons and his last name being Snow.The argument someone made a couple pages ago that Jon Snow is Danaerys nephew is pretty compelling... though I guess that wouldn't necessarily throw out the possibility in this world.
The theory also works as a reason for The Mad King killing Ned's sister.That would make sense. The book kind of intimated that Ned Stark wouldn't talk about the other woman because he was embarrassed he cheated. It would make a lot more sense if he didn't talk about her because doing so would be admitting to treason (having an affair with a royal member of a family you were at war with).I've felt for a long time that Jon Snow is destined to be with Danaerys. Just makes too much sense with her being the mother of dragons and his last name being Snow.The argument someone made a couple pages ago that Jon Snow is Danaerys nephew is pretty compelling... though I guess that wouldn't necessarily throw out the possibility in this world.
However after the Red God was behind a shadow baby, bringing a dude back to life multiple times and the dragons returning if he says that Stannis is going to be king, I am not one to deny him.
Hmmm, have you read any other good theories?The theory also works as a reason for The Mad King killing Ned's sister.That would make sense. The book kind of intimated that Ned Stark wouldn't talk about the other woman because he was embarrassed he cheated. It would make a lot more sense if he didn't talk about her because doing so would be admitting to treason (having an affair with a royal member of a family you were at war with).I've felt for a long time that Jon Snow is destined to be with Danaerys. Just makes too much sense with her being the mother of dragons and his last name being Snow.The argument someone made a couple pages ago that Jon Snow is Danaerys nephew is pretty compelling... though I guess that wouldn't necessarily throw out the possibility in this world.
However after the Red God was behind a shadow baby, bringing a dude back to life multiple times and the dragons returning if he says that Stannis is going to be king, I am not one to deny him.
The theory isn't that Ned had an affair at all. The theory is that Rhaegar Targaryen either abducted Lyanna Stark (or she went willingly) after the tourney at Harrenhal and that they had a child in secret and on Lyanna's deathbed Ned promised to protect the child and keep him safe from anyone that would want the child dead. Thus, Jon Snow is a **** and is half a Stark, the half Stark is just his mother not his father.Hmmm, have you read any other good theories?The theory also works as a reason for The Mad King killing Ned's sister.That would make sense. The book kind of intimated that Ned Stark wouldn't talk about the other woman because he was embarrassed he cheated. It would make a lot more sense if he didn't talk about her because doing so would be admitting to treason (having an affair with a royal member of a family you were at war with).I've felt for a long time that Jon Snow is destined to be with Danaerys. Just makes too much sense with her being the mother of dragons and his last name being Snow.The argument someone made a couple pages ago that Jon Snow is Danaerys nephew is pretty compelling... though I guess that wouldn't necessarily throw out the possibility in this world.
However after the Red God was behind a shadow baby, bringing a dude back to life multiple times and the dragons returning if he says that Stannis is going to be king, I am not one to deny him.
The theory isn't that Ned had an affair at all. The theory is that Rhaegar Targaryen either abducted Lyanna Stark (or she went willingly) after the tourney at Harrenhal and that they had a child in secret and on Lyanna's deathbed Ned promised to protect the child and keep him safe from anyone that would want the child dead. Thus, Jon Snow is a **** and is half a Stark, the half Stark is just his mother not his father.Hmmm, have you read any other good theories?The theory also works as a reason for The Mad King killing Ned's sister.That would make sense. The book kind of intimated that Ned Stark wouldn't talk about the other woman because he was embarrassed he cheated. It would make a lot more sense if he didn't talk about her because doing so would be admitting to treason (having an affair with a royal member of a family you were at war with).I've felt for a long time that Jon Snow is destined to be with Danaerys. Just makes too much sense with her being the mother of dragons and his last name being Snow.The argument someone made a couple pages ago that Jon Snow is Danaerys nephew is pretty compelling... though I guess that wouldn't necessarily throw out the possibility in this world.
However after the Red God was behind a shadow baby, bringing a dude back to life multiple times and the dragons returning if he says that Stannis is going to be king, I am not one to deny him.
The theory isn't that Ned had an affair at all. The theory is that Rhaegar Targaryen either abducted Lyanna Stark (or she went willingly) after the tourney at Harrenhal and that they had a child in secret and on Lyanna's deathbed Ned promised to protect the child and keep him safe from anyone that would want the child dead. Thus, Jon Snow is a **** and is half a Stark, the half Stark is just his mother not his father.Hmmm, have you read any other good theories?The theory also works as a reason for The Mad King killing Ned's sister.That would make sense. The book kind of intimated that Ned Stark wouldn't talk about the other woman because he was embarrassed he cheated. It would make a lot more sense if he didn't talk about her because doing so would be admitting to treason (having an affair with a royal member of a family you were at war with).I've felt for a long time that Jon Snow is destined to be with Danaerys. Just makes too much sense with her being the mother of dragons and his last name being Snow.The argument someone made a couple pages ago that Jon Snow is Danaerys nephew is pretty compelling... though I guess that wouldn't necessarily throw out the possibility in this world.
However after the Red God was behind a shadow baby, bringing a dude back to life multiple times and the dragons returning if he says that Stannis is going to be king, I am not one to deny him.
Aerys Targaryen, the Second of His Name, was the King of the Seven Kingdoms and the last member of House Targaryen to sit the Iron Throne. Nicknamed the Mad King, his reign became increasingly erratic and murderous. As a result, tensions between House Targaryen and several other Great Houses began to rise. A final round of blood-letting, unleashed when his son Prince Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, saw many Houses in the realm rebel against his rule.[2][3]
Right and it also means that with his Stark warg characteristics and his half Targs blood that he could "ride" a dragon and be the person to defeat the Others/White Walkers.The theory isn't that Ned had an affair at all. The theory is that Rhaegar Targaryen either abducted Lyanna Stark (or she went willingly) after the tourney at Harrenhal and that they had a child in secret and on Lyanna's deathbed Ned promised to protect the child and keep him safe from anyone that would want the child dead. Thus, Jon Snow is a **** and is half a Stark, the half Stark is just his mother not his father.Hmmm, have you read any other good theories?The theory also works as a reason for The Mad King killing Ned's sister.That would make sense. The book kind of intimated that Ned Stark wouldn't talk about the other woman because he was embarrassed he cheated. It would make a lot more sense if he didn't talk about her because doing so would be admitting to treason (having an affair with a royal member of a family you were at war with).I've felt for a long time that Jon Snow is destined to be with Danaerys. Just makes too much sense with her being the mother of dragons and his last name being Snow.The argument someone made a couple pages ago that Jon Snow is Danaerys nephew is pretty compelling... though I guess that wouldn't necessarily throw out the possibility in this world.
However after the Red God was behind a shadow baby, bringing a dude back to life multiple times and the dragons returning if he says that Stannis is going to be king, I am not one to deny him.
This is what I've always believed. Very in-line with Ned's character as well, and fits with Rhaegar's behavior patterns, as well as Ned's.
Not Aerys, Rhaegar (dany's older brother and the heir to the throne). Who at the tourney at Harrenhal fell for Lyanna's beauty. There is a lot of disagreement about whether she was abducted or went willingly as Rhaegar was quite smashing on the eyes. Of course that also ruined Rhaegar's plans to usurp the throne from his father by starting the rebellion. Had Aerys not killed Rickard and Brandon Stark, there would be no rebellion and Rhaegar would have forced his crazy dad out.The theory isn't that Ned had an affair at all. The theory is that Rhaegar Targaryen either abducted Lyanna Stark (or she went willingly) after the tourney at Harrenhal and that they had a child in secret and on Lyanna's deathbed Ned promised to protect the child and keep him safe from anyone that would want the child dead. Thus, Jon Snow is a **** and is half a Stark, the half Stark is just his mother not his father.Hmmm, have you read any other good theories?The theory also works as a reason for The Mad King killing Ned's sister.That would make sense. The book kind of intimated that Ned Stark wouldn't talk about the other woman because he was embarrassed he cheated. It would make a lot more sense if he didn't talk about her because doing so would be admitting to treason (having an affair with a royal member of a family you were at war with).I've felt for a long time that Jon Snow is destined to be with Danaerys. Just makes too much sense with her being the mother of dragons and his last name being Snow.The argument someone made a couple pages ago that Jon Snow is Danaerys nephew is pretty compelling... though I guess that wouldn't necessarily throw out the possibility in this world.
However after the Red God was behind a shadow baby, bringing a dude back to life multiple times and the dragons returning if he says that Stannis is going to be king, I am not one to deny him.
If you read the wiki on "Robert's Rebellion", it makes a ton of sense:
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Robert%27s_RebellionQuoteAerys Targaryen, the Second of His Name, was the King of the Seven Kingdoms and the last member of House Targaryen to sit the Iron Throne. Nicknamed the Mad King, his reign became increasingly erratic and murderous. As a result, tensions between House Targaryen and several other Great Houses began to rise. A final round of blood-letting, unleashed when his son Prince Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, saw many Houses in the realm rebel against his rule.[2][3]
It's basically what started the whole war... it does make sense that Aerys Targaryen would have raped Eddard's sister (Lyanna) and perhaps she gave birth to Jon Snow... and Eddard refused to talk about who the mother was... or that the bastahd was a Targaryen. They were killing all of the Targaryens... the baby would have been murdered. Makes total and complete sense... Also Eddard was too moral to have cheated on his wife. Dude was all about morals.
And now I'm sad I know about it, because I feel like it spoils the rest of the series. Lol. Makes sense why they keep focusing on Jon Snow... methinks he's going to become King some day... or at least have a solid claim to the throne. I'm guessing Daenys taking the throne at some point is a given.. but when she inevitably dies (which happens to everyone in this [dang] show)... Snow might be the closest left to a Targaryen and might have a claim to the throne. Seems logical.
Even if this is true I'm curious about how these events would come to light. SInce pretty much all of the characters involved in this are now long dead.Not Aerys, Rhaegar (dany's older brother and the heir to the throne). Who at the tourney at Harrenhal fell for Lyanna's beauty. There is a lot of disagreement about whether she was abducted or went willingly as Rhaegar was quite smashing on the eyes. Of course that also ruined Rhaegar's plans to usurp the throne from his father by starting the rebellion. Had Aerys not killed Rickard and Brandon Stark, there would be no rebellion and Rhaegar would have forced his crazy dad out.The theory isn't that Ned had an affair at all. The theory is that Rhaegar Targaryen either abducted Lyanna Stark (or she went willingly) after the tourney at Harrenhal and that they had a child in secret and on Lyanna's deathbed Ned promised to protect the child and keep him safe from anyone that would want the child dead. Thus, Jon Snow is a **** and is half a Stark, the half Stark is just his mother not his father.Hmmm, have you read any other good theories?The theory also works as a reason for The Mad King killing Ned's sister.That would make sense. The book kind of intimated that Ned Stark wouldn't talk about the other woman because he was embarrassed he cheated. It would make a lot more sense if he didn't talk about her because doing so would be admitting to treason (having an affair with a royal member of a family you were at war with).I've felt for a long time that Jon Snow is destined to be with Danaerys. Just makes too much sense with her being the mother of dragons and his last name being Snow.The argument someone made a couple pages ago that Jon Snow is Danaerys nephew is pretty compelling... though I guess that wouldn't necessarily throw out the possibility in this world.
However after the Red God was behind a shadow baby, bringing a dude back to life multiple times and the dragons returning if he says that Stannis is going to be king, I am not one to deny him.
If you read the wiki on "Robert's Rebellion", it makes a ton of sense:
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Robert%27s_RebellionQuoteAerys Targaryen, the Second of His Name, was the King of the Seven Kingdoms and the last member of House Targaryen to sit the Iron Throne. Nicknamed the Mad King, his reign became increasingly erratic and murderous. As a result, tensions between House Targaryen and several other Great Houses began to rise. A final round of blood-letting, unleashed when his son Prince Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, saw many Houses in the realm rebel against his rule.[2][3]
It's basically what started the whole war... it does make sense that Aerys Targaryen would have raped Eddard's sister (Lyanna) and perhaps she gave birth to Jon Snow... and Eddard refused to talk about who the mother was... or that the bastahd was a Targaryen. They were killing all of the Targaryens... the baby would have been murdered. Makes total and complete sense... Also Eddard was too moral to have cheated on his wife. Dude was all about morals.
And now I'm sad I know about it, because I feel like it spoils the rest of the series. Lol. Makes sense why they keep focusing on Jon Snow... methinks he's going to become King some day... or at least have a solid claim to the throne. I'm guessing Daenys taking the throne at some point is a given.. but when she inevitably dies (which happens to everyone in this [dang] show)... Snow might be the closest left to a Targaryen and might have a claim to the throne. Seems logical.
Barristan Selmy would know as he was close to Rhaegar. Being head of the Kingsguard, he was also a man who knew and held many secrets and if he knew this one, would probably have never uttered a word as the King he was protecting after the war, Robert Baratheon, loved Lyanna.Even if this is true I'm curious about how these events would come to light. SInce pretty much all of the characters involved in this are now long dead.Not Aerys, Rhaegar (dany's older brother and the heir to the throne). Who at the tourney at Harrenhal fell for Lyanna's beauty. There is a lot of disagreement about whether she was abducted or went willingly as Rhaegar was quite smashing on the eyes. Of course that also ruined Rhaegar's plans to usurp the throne from his father by starting the rebellion. Had Aerys not killed Rickard and Brandon Stark, there would be no rebellion and Rhaegar would have forced his crazy dad out.The theory isn't that Ned had an affair at all. The theory is that Rhaegar Targaryen either abducted Lyanna Stark (or she went willingly) after the tourney at Harrenhal and that they had a child in secret and on Lyanna's deathbed Ned promised to protect the child and keep him safe from anyone that would want the child dead. Thus, Jon Snow is a **** and is half a Stark, the half Stark is just his mother not his father.Hmmm, have you read any other good theories?The theory also works as a reason for The Mad King killing Ned's sister.That would make sense. The book kind of intimated that Ned Stark wouldn't talk about the other woman because he was embarrassed he cheated. It would make a lot more sense if he didn't talk about her because doing so would be admitting to treason (having an affair with a royal member of a family you were at war with).I've felt for a long time that Jon Snow is destined to be with Danaerys. Just makes too much sense with her being the mother of dragons and his last name being Snow.The argument someone made a couple pages ago that Jon Snow is Danaerys nephew is pretty compelling... though I guess that wouldn't necessarily throw out the possibility in this world.
However after the Red God was behind a shadow baby, bringing a dude back to life multiple times and the dragons returning if he says that Stannis is going to be king, I am not one to deny him.
If you read the wiki on "Robert's Rebellion", it makes a ton of sense:
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Robert%27s_RebellionQuoteAerys Targaryen, the Second of His Name, was the King of the Seven Kingdoms and the last member of House Targaryen to sit the Iron Throne. Nicknamed the Mad King, his reign became increasingly erratic and murderous. As a result, tensions between House Targaryen and several other Great Houses began to rise. A final round of blood-letting, unleashed when his son Prince Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, saw many Houses in the realm rebel against his rule.[2][3]
It's basically what started the whole war... it does make sense that Aerys Targaryen would have raped Eddard's sister (Lyanna) and perhaps she gave birth to Jon Snow... and Eddard refused to talk about who the mother was... or that the bastahd was a Targaryen. They were killing all of the Targaryens... the baby would have been murdered. Makes total and complete sense... Also Eddard was too moral to have cheated on his wife. Dude was all about morals.
And now I'm sad I know about it, because I feel like it spoils the rest of the series. Lol. Makes sense why they keep focusing on Jon Snow... methinks he's going to become King some day... or at least have a solid claim to the throne. I'm guessing Daenys taking the throne at some point is a given.. but when she inevitably dies (which happens to everyone in this [dang] show)... Snow might be the closest left to a Targaryen and might have a claim to the throne. Seems logical.
Yeah that's what I meant. That was a typo.Not Aerys, Rhaegar (dany's older brother and the heir to the throne). Who at the tourney at Harrenhal fell for Lyanna's beauty. There is a lot of disagreement about whether she was abducted or went willingly as Rhaegar was quite smashing on the eyes. Of course that also ruined Rhaegar's plans to usurp the throne from his father by starting the rebellion. Had Aerys not killed Rickard and Brandon Stark, there would be no rebellion and Rhaegar would have forced his crazy dad out.The theory isn't that Ned had an affair at all. The theory is that Rhaegar Targaryen either abducted Lyanna Stark (or she went willingly) after the tourney at Harrenhal and that they had a child in secret and on Lyanna's deathbed Ned promised to protect the child and keep him safe from anyone that would want the child dead. Thus, Jon Snow is a **** and is half a Stark, the half Stark is just his mother not his father.Hmmm, have you read any other good theories?The theory also works as a reason for The Mad King killing Ned's sister.That would make sense. The book kind of intimated that Ned Stark wouldn't talk about the other woman because he was embarrassed he cheated. It would make a lot more sense if he didn't talk about her because doing so would be admitting to treason (having an affair with a royal member of a family you were at war with).I've felt for a long time that Jon Snow is destined to be with Danaerys. Just makes too much sense with her being the mother of dragons and his last name being Snow.The argument someone made a couple pages ago that Jon Snow is Danaerys nephew is pretty compelling... though I guess that wouldn't necessarily throw out the possibility in this world.
However after the Red God was behind a shadow baby, bringing a dude back to life multiple times and the dragons returning if he says that Stannis is going to be king, I am not one to deny him.
If you read the wiki on "Robert's Rebellion", it makes a ton of sense:
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Robert%27s_RebellionQuoteAerys Targaryen, the Second of His Name, was the King of the Seven Kingdoms and the last member of House Targaryen to sit the Iron Throne. Nicknamed the Mad King, his reign became increasingly erratic and murderous. As a result, tensions between House Targaryen and several other Great Houses began to rise. A final round of blood-letting, unleashed when his son Prince Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, saw many Houses in the realm rebel against his rule.[2][3]
It's basically what started the whole war... it does make sense that Aerys Targaryen would have raped Eddard's sister (Lyanna) and perhaps she gave birth to Jon Snow... and Eddard refused to talk about who the mother was... or that the bastahd was a Targaryen. They were killing all of the Targaryens... the baby would have been murdered. Makes total and complete sense... Also Eddard was too moral to have cheated on his wife. Dude was all about morals.
And now I'm sad I know about it, because I feel like it spoils the rest of the series. Lol. Makes sense why they keep focusing on Jon Snow... methinks he's going to become King some day... or at least have a solid claim to the throne. I'm guessing Daenys taking the throne at some point is a given.. but when she inevitably dies (which happens to everyone in this [dang] show)... Snow might be the closest left to a Targaryen and might have a claim to the throne. Seems logical.
My first question: does this thread contain spoilers from the book beyond where we're at in the show?Yes there are some spoilers so I would review with care.
My second question: has there ever been a more jaw-dropping, heartbreaking moment in TV history than the Red Wedding? Hard to imagine if so.
Incredible show.
He might know. I think someone like Varys, the Maester's, and people of that ilk, probably know a lot of this. Especially Varys.Barristan Selmy would know as he was close to Rhaegar. Being head of the Kingsguard, he was also a man who knew and held many secrets and if he knew this one, would probably have never uttered a word as the King he was protecting after the war, Robert Baratheon, loved Lyanna.Even if this is true I'm curious about how these events would come to light. SInce pretty much all of the characters involved in this are now long dead.Not Aerys, Rhaegar (dany's older brother and the heir to the throne). Who at the tourney at Harrenhal fell for Lyanna's beauty. There is a lot of disagreement about whether she was abducted or went willingly as Rhaegar was quite smashing on the eyes. Of course that also ruined Rhaegar's plans to usurp the throne from his father by starting the rebellion. Had Aerys not killed Rickard and Brandon Stark, there would be no rebellion and Rhaegar would have forced his crazy dad out.The theory isn't that Ned had an affair at all. The theory is that Rhaegar Targaryen either abducted Lyanna Stark (or she went willingly) after the tourney at Harrenhal and that they had a child in secret and on Lyanna's deathbed Ned promised to protect the child and keep him safe from anyone that would want the child dead. Thus, Jon Snow is a **** and is half a Stark, the half Stark is just his mother not his father.Hmmm, have you read any other good theories?The theory also works as a reason for The Mad King killing Ned's sister.That would make sense. The book kind of intimated that Ned Stark wouldn't talk about the other woman because he was embarrassed he cheated. It would make a lot more sense if he didn't talk about her because doing so would be admitting to treason (having an affair with a royal member of a family you were at war with).I've felt for a long time that Jon Snow is destined to be with Danaerys. Just makes too much sense with her being the mother of dragons and his last name being Snow.The argument someone made a couple pages ago that Jon Snow is Danaerys nephew is pretty compelling... though I guess that wouldn't necessarily throw out the possibility in this world.
However after the Red God was behind a shadow baby, bringing a dude back to life multiple times and the dragons returning if he says that Stannis is going to be king, I am not one to deny him.
If you read the wiki on "Robert's Rebellion", it makes a ton of sense:
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Robert%27s_RebellionQuoteAerys Targaryen, the Second of His Name, was the King of the Seven Kingdoms and the last member of House Targaryen to sit the Iron Throne. Nicknamed the Mad King, his reign became increasingly erratic and murderous. As a result, tensions between House Targaryen and several other Great Houses began to rise. A final round of blood-letting, unleashed when his son Prince Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, saw many Houses in the realm rebel against his rule.[2][3]
It's basically what started the whole war... it does make sense that Aerys Targaryen would have raped Eddard's sister (Lyanna) and perhaps she gave birth to Jon Snow... and Eddard refused to talk about who the mother was... or that the bastahd was a Targaryen. They were killing all of the Targaryens... the baby would have been murdered. Makes total and complete sense... Also Eddard was too moral to have cheated on his wife. Dude was all about morals.
And now I'm sad I know about it, because I feel like it spoils the rest of the series. Lol. Makes sense why they keep focusing on Jon Snow... methinks he's going to become King some day... or at least have a solid claim to the throne. I'm guessing Daenys taking the throne at some point is a given.. but when she inevitably dies (which happens to everyone in this [dang] show)... Snow might be the closest left to a Targaryen and might have a claim to the throne. Seems logical.
My first question: does this thread contain spoilers from the book beyond where we're at in the show?
My second question: has there ever been a more jaw-dropping, heartbreaking moment in TV history than the Red Wedding? Hard to imagine if so.
Incredible show.
This thread really shouldn't contain book spoilers though. The book fans can start their own thread. This should be dedicated to the show.My first question: does this thread contain spoilers from the book beyond where we're at in the show?Yes there are some spoilers so I would review with care.
My second question: has there ever been a more jaw-dropping, heartbreaking moment in TV history than the Red Wedding? Hard to imagine if so.
Incredible show.
https://vine.co/v/b3XZMHmxzxh
Arya's reaction.
I will say, of all the things that died throughout the books', the Dire Wolves dying has usually been the one that stays with you the most.
Cuz the people..well they're all kinda jerks. Aside from a very, very select few, everyone has done something at some point that makes you think, "You know, if they just like..died..that'd be okay."
But the Dire Wolves. Just messed up, man. Just so messed up.
you learn of Roberts rebellion in the first book.This thread really shouldn't contain book spoilers though. The book fans can start their own thread. This should be dedicated to the show.My first question: does this thread contain spoilers from the book beyond where we're at in the show?Yes there are some spoilers so I would review with care.
My second question: has there ever been a more jaw-dropping, heartbreaking moment in TV history than the Red Wedding? Hard to imagine if so.
Incredible show.
The couple potential "spoiler' things in this thread, i think, were just theories. Although the "Jon snow might be a Targaryen" thing seems like it might be spoilerish. It's an easy leap to make if you know about the details of Robert's Rebellion... unfortunately I don't think the show has really gone into the specifics. In the book series, by this point should you already know the specifics of Robert's Rebellion... the kidnapping of Eddard's sister, etc? If so... I don't think the "Snow might be Eddard's nephew" is really a spoiler... just an educated guess.
While its very tragic, am I the only one here who thinks "Robb had this coming, and brought everyone he loves in to doom"?Robb Stark was immature and young and was playing the Game of Thrones versus an expert, Tywin Lannister. When you step back and look at the situation, I think it is easier to say that Robb just made mistakes that youth make, not that he deserved what happened.
That's because she is a Tully and the only likeable Tully in the entire series is her uncle the Blackfish.While its very tragic, am I the only one here who thinks "Robb had this coming, and brought everyone he loves in to doom"?Robb Stark was immature and young and was playing the Game of Thrones versus an expert, Tywin Lannister. When you step back and look at the situation, I think it is easier to say that Robb just made mistakes that youth make, not that he deserved what happened.
I actually disagree. Robb played a part in causing the Red Wedding, of course, but I think the biggest culprit, the person that really brought all of the males in the Stark family to doom, was Cat.
Walder Frey would have been mad at Robb, but he'd been slighted by nobles his whole life. He wouldn't have liked it, but if Robb were still powerful he'd have grinned and beared it. But Robb wasn't still powerful, because his army splintered right about the time that his mother decided to let Jaime go. That one move gave up Robb's biggest leverage piece, turned one of his biggest supporters (and eventually that large portion of his army) against him, ruined morale, and eventually left Robb in a weak enough position that the Freys and Boltons of the world smelled blood.
This was eerily similar to how Cat's spontaneous decision to kidnap Tyrion led directly to the deterioration of Ned's power base and eventual fate.
Or how Cat's nastiness to Jon Snow led directly to him being sent to the Wall...so that he wasn't around to be the man of Winterfell with Ned, Cat and Robb and their retainers all out in the field. If Jon, Cat, and Cat's guards are at Winterfell does Theon's little uprising that led to a displaced Bran and Rickon ever happen? I think not.
As far as the Stark family goes, Cat was the devil.
correct -- mentioned that in my original post. it's helped keep the storylines a surprise -- which is a good thing considering the Red WeddingObviously you never read the books.I always found the story lines of Arya, Tyrion, Daenerys and Jon Snow to be the most compelling
same here. I'd add Jamie Lannister to that mix as well.
for some reason I thought the Rob/Catelyn story line would eventually crossover to the Goffrey storyline and have a climactic ending/confrontation ending in one of their demises (hoping Little Finger would bite the dust in that storyline if possible).
so much for that.
Now my theories for the eventual storyline is either what's left of the Starks joins with Daenerys to overthrow Goffrey (Jon Snow is really fitting in here as her prospective ally/mate) OR the Starks (primarily Jon Snow now) overthrow Goffrey with the Wildings (which looks pretty slim now) and form a coalition of the remnants of Westeros to take on Daenerys.
her death at the Red Wedding was the one good point for me.That's because she is a Tully and the only likeable Tully in the entire series is her uncle the Blackfish.While its very tragic, am I the only one here who thinks "Robb had this coming, and brought everyone he loves in to doom"?Robb Stark was immature and young and was playing the Game of Thrones versus an expert, Tywin Lannister. When you step back and look at the situation, I think it is easier to say that Robb just made mistakes that youth make, not that he deserved what happened.
I actually disagree. Robb played a part in causing the Red Wedding, of course, but I think the biggest culprit, the person that really brought all of the males in the Stark family to doom, was Cat.
Walder Frey would have been mad at Robb, but he'd been slighted by nobles his whole life. He wouldn't have liked it, but if Robb were still powerful he'd have grinned and beared it. But Robb wasn't still powerful, because his army splintered right about the time that his mother decided to let Jaime go. That one move gave up Robb's biggest leverage piece, turned one of his biggest supporters (and eventually that large portion of his army) against him, ruined morale, and eventually left Robb in a weak enough position that the Freys and Boltons of the world smelled blood.
This was eerily similar to how Cat's spontaneous decision to kidnap Tyrion led directly to the deterioration of Ned's power base and eventual fate.
Or how Cat's nastiness to Jon Snow led directly to him being sent to the Wall...so that he wasn't around to be the man of Winterfell with Ned, Cat and Robb and their retainers all out in the field. If Jon, Cat, and Cat's guards are at Winterfell does Theon's little uprising that led to a displaced Bran and Rickon ever happen? I think not.
As far as the Stark family goes, Cat was the devil.
(http://celluloidheroes.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/sandor_clegane.jpg?w=300&h=184)
my fav cuz he is real and gangsta
My favorite character isNed StarkJeor MormontRob Starkoh I give up.
her death at the Red Wedding was the one good point for me.As far as the Stark family goes, Cat was the devil.That's because she is a Tully and the only likeable Tully in the entire series is her uncle the Blackfish.
every idea/act of hers turned to complete crap and screwed over her family continuously
Decent episode last night, the last episode is always setting things up, and with this book split in half it makes sense it'd be anticlimactic. Looking forward to Hodor Hodoring the hell out of some White Walkers, and whatever weird Stockholm Syndrome beast Theon gets made into. Dany becoming Essos Moses was kinda weird though - the contrast between Essos and Westeros is becoming stronger all the time, got to believe that's on purpose.
I took up the advice to read Storm of Swords from page 1, and honestly, I'm completely enriched in every possible way. George R.R. Martin is an outstanding writer.
I'm currently on page 505 right now. Time to get to the season 4 part!
Thanks guys for telling me to read it from the beginning; I savored every page, paragraph, word, letter, and molecule of it!
P.S. I'm thinking of skipping book 4 (w/ help from Wikipedia and Google). Good or bad idea?
I caved and am reading the books myself. Still just partway through the second book now. My general impression is that the books add a lot of flavor and detail to the storyline but the show is handsdown better at structuring scenes, playing up themes, and keeping such a massively broad storyline semi-coherent. Also the toplessness comes across much better on the screen.
I feel like the books work very well as a supplement to the show but we'll see how it works when I get to the stuff the show hasn't covered yet.
BTW it's totally unrelated but airbellineli I gave you a TP for that excellent Rose sig.
Alright guys, I finished Storm of Swords.It has been awhile since I read the two books, but I can't imagine that thing would lead you astray.
My jaw is still dropping.
(sort of a book spoiler below)
rghdfghdfhhdI really like Jaime now and Tyrion more. They're cool cats. Kinda like Magic Johnson - you hate 'em cuz they're Lakers/Lannisters, but you admire them and they are so fun to read/watch.
I have a big question, though; it regards my overall happiness in the future.
Can I read A Feast For Crows and A Dance With Dragons simultaneously?
Normally, I'd jump right into book 4, but I don't think I can: I need Khaleesi or I'll go mad. I'm even thinking of skipping book 4 completely (everyone says it's not as good anyway), using some chapter summaries at most, though. Any advice on what to do?
EDIT: Would this reading order work from a glance? http://boiledleather.com/post/25902554148/a-new-reader-friendly-combined-reading-order-for-a (http://boiledleather.com/post/25902554148/a-new-reader-friendly-combined-reading-order-for-a)
Curious bout what yall think about the last episode.
I was shocked..knew it was gonna happen but not so soon
But what happens now? Does the one of the little brothers become King or does Margaery become acting Queen? If one of the little brothers becomes king, does the Hand act as King until the boy comes of age?
I think this will put the push on to find the Edited for profanity. Please do not do it again. son as the rightful ruler (or to kill him from the Lannister point of view). haven't read the books so this is just pure speculation on my partBut what happens now? Does the one of the little brothers become King or does Margaery become acting Queen? If one of the little brothers becomes king, does the Hand act as King until the boy comes of age?
Tommen's the next in line. They recast him with an older actor for this. Cersei would go back to being technically in charge until he's of age, but Tywin's realistically going to be the one running things.
I, for one, found The Purple Wedding much more satisfying than the Red one.me too. much more satisfying.
But what happens now? Does the one of the little brothers become King or does Margaery become acting Queen? If one of the little brothers becomes king, does the Hand act as King until the boy comes of age?
Tommen's the next in line. They recast him with an older actor for this. Cersei would go back to being technically in charge until he's of age, but Tywin's realistically going to be the one running things.
Can we all admit that as traumatizing as any GoT death is, it still pales in comparrisson to Wallace's death in The Wire.
[dang] it. I liked Oberyn.Me too, buddy...
That was gruesome.pretty much. also had me shaking. poor tyrion crushed hope.
Only 10 eps a season drives me crazy, or the fact we have to wait a year for the next set of episodes. does anyone know why it takes them a year to deliver?I'm pretty sure they are worried about the show outpacing the books.
Well that and it is by far the most expensive show on television with the massive cast, 6 or 7 locations all in vastly different parts of the globe, and all of the CGI that is required. Plus since they don't have commercials, they get a solid 52 minutes (or whatever) of actual show, which is about 12-13 minutes longer than your typical hour long show, so the ten episodes is 520 minutes, which equates to more like 13 or 14 regular shows.Only 10 eps a season drives me crazy, or the fact we have to wait a year for the next set of episodes. does anyone know why it takes them a year to deliver?I'm pretty sure they are worried about the show outpacing the books.
Wallace's death was worse...
Edit: Too many Wire spoils. Some still haven't seen it, despite it being the greatest series ever.
Can we all admit that as traumatizing as any GoT death is, it still pales in comparrisson to Wallace's death in The Wire.
Is this the death you are talking about?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hor_gOBU_GU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hor_gOBU_GU)
because the death i saw tonight has me shaking as i write this now. I don't know why, I have seen normal amount of tv deaths. I think it just seemed so real, and the humanity of crushing someones face in and the pain that was caused....scares me. It makes me think "that has happened sometime in the history of the world"...and thats scares me
Can we all admit that as traumatizing as any GoT death is, it still pales in comparrisson to Wallace's death in The Wire.
Is this the death you are talking about?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hor_gOBU_GU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hor_gOBU_GU)
because the death i saw tonight has me shaking as i write this now. I don't know why, I have seen normal amount of tv deaths. I think it just seemed so real, and the humanity of crushing someones face in and the pain that was caused....scares me. It makes me think "that has happened sometime in the history of the world"...and thats scares me
Has nothing to do with the mode of killing, but the human drama behind it.
Poor Oberyn ...
I don't have much sympathy for him though. He broke the #1 rule in a "Until Death" fight. Don't be a showboat - just finish your opponent off.
Wallace's death was worse...
Edit: Too many Wire spoils. Some still haven't seen it, despite it being the greatest series ever.
If you haven't seen season one of The Wire at this point, then I don't know what to say to you.
That. Was. Epic.
How long till the next series? ???
Wallace's death was worse...
Edit: Too many Wire spoils. Some still haven't seen it, despite it being the greatest series ever.
If you haven't seen season one of The Wire at this point, then I don't know what to say to you.
Tremendous series, all five seasons are a must-see...
Bah, I wanted to see Coldhands.
Wallace's death was worse...
Edit: Too many Wire spoils. Some still haven't seen it, despite it being the greatest series ever.
If you haven't seen season one of The Wire at this point, then I don't know what to say to you.
Tremendous series, all five seasons are a must-see...
Im on ep4 and its somewhat slow.
Did anyone else spot the irony of Tywin Lannister dying by his son's hand (crossbow) on Father's Day?
Also, this seems to be a thread for the television series and book spoilers should be confined to another thread for those who have read the books.
Finally, does anyone else know where the conclusion of the series puts us book-wise? I like to read the books after the series but not sure how they synchronise at the moment.
It is adapted primarily from the second half of A Storm of Swords, along with elements of A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons, all novels from the A Song of Ice and Fire series by George R. R. Martin.[2]
Are there spoilers from the books in this forum? I'm afraid to look into the thread.
It might be helpful to have two separate threads much like AV Club does reviews, one for "newbies" (show only) and one for "experts" (show + books).
There are discussions of the books in this thread. Shae loved the Imp, but she, like most in the series, is an opportunist and when the writing was on the wall she jumped ship. Just like Bronn.Are there spoilers from the books in this forum? I'm afraid to look into the thread.
It might be helpful to have two separate threads much like AV Club does reviews, one for "newbies" (show only) and one for "experts" (show + books).
Thats a good point there should be a separate thread.
Does anyone know the deal with Shea? My question is was she always working for the father, or did she just hate him after he kicked her out of Kings Landing?
she jumped ship. Just like Bronn.
Well sure Bronn was a bit more noble in his jumping ship, but they both jumped ship. I think Shae jumping ship was a bit more dramatic because she seemed to really love Tyrion at one point (and unlike Bronn you almost forget she was a prostitute) and Tyrion clearly loved her, but at the end of the day they both jumped off the sinking ship onto the winning ship (or at least the winning ship at the moment - I'm sure Shae never expected Tyrion to be freed and kill her).Quoteshe jumped ship. Just like Bronn.
I do not think Bronn jumped ship completely. Only a fool would face the mountain and he was still was friendly with Tyrion. I consider him more a realist than a back stabber. Shae's was a total betrayal. Shae betrayed Tyrion's love but to be fair she was a prostitute. Bron was always a rogue. A savage killer but he generally is only as savage as his employer's mandates. He was always out to back the winning side. Both used their bodies for advancement. One for sex the other for killing and both clearly used Tyrion. One shows regret, Bronn, but the other does not, Shae. Tyrion had an escape route for Shae but none for Bronn. Bronn did what an anyone would do and try to survive. ( everyone talks brave but in my army experience friends who will fight with you or for you in a bar fight are rare birds). Shae was safely gone and came back and totally hosed Tyrion.
This already happened so I do not consider it spoiler and it happened several shows ago. In book he takes an offer from Cersei to marry into Stokeworths and refuses to fight the Mountain. He does not completely forget Tyrion though. In TV it is largely the same but he comes and sees him in his cell. The difference is Bronn shows regret at being an opportunity. Shae does not at all.
One thing, I always found fascinating is where Martin got his ideas. I always thought the War of Roses was an inspiration for GoT. York and Lancester sound a lot like Stark and Lannister. it is certainly not the only influence but I believe it is one.
All NBA and Got fans need to watch this it is very funny, we make an appearance in episode 2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St5PLcxZy44&feature=kp
Well sure Bronn was a bit more noble in his jumping ship, but they both jumped ship. I think Shae jumping ship was a bit more dramatic because she seemed to really love Tyrion at one point (and unlike Bronn you almost forget she was a prostitute) and Tyrion clearly loved her, but at the end of the day they both jumped off the sinking ship onto the winning ship (or at least the winning ship at the moment - I'm sure Shae never expected Tyrion to be freed and kill her).Quoteshe jumped ship. Just like Bronn.
I do not think Bronn jumped ship completely. Only a fool would face the mountain and he was still was friendly with Tyrion. I consider him more a realist than a back stabber. Shae's was a total betrayal. Shae betrayed Tyrion's love but to be fair she was a prostitute. Bron was always a rogue. A savage killer but he generally is only as savage as his employer's mandates. He was always out to back the winning side. Both used their bodies for advancement. One for sex the other for killing and both clearly used Tyrion. One shows regret, Bronn, but the other does not, Shae. Tyrion had an escape route for Shae but none for Bronn. Bronn did what an anyone would do and try to survive. ( everyone talks brave but in my army experience friends who will fight with you or for you in a bar fight are rare birds). Shae was safely gone and came back and totally hosed Tyrion.
This already happened so I do not consider it spoiler and it happened several shows ago. In book he takes an offer from Cersei to marry into Stokeworths and refuses to fight the Mountain. He does not completely forget Tyrion though. In TV it is largely the same but he comes and sees him in his cell. The difference is Bronn shows regret at being an opportunity. Shae does not at all.
One thing, I always found fascinating is where Martin got his ideas. I always thought the War of Roses was an inspiration for GoT. York and Lancester sound a lot like Stark and Lannister. it is certainly not the only influence but I believe it is one.
All NBA and Got fans need to watch this it is very funny, we make an appearance in episode 2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St5PLcxZy44&feature=kp
Well sure Bronn was a bit more noble in his jumping ship, but they both jumped ship. I think Shae jumping ship was a bit more dramatic because she seemed to really love Tyrion at one point (and unlike Bronn you almost forget she was a prostitute) and Tyrion clearly loved her, but at the end of the day they both jumped off the sinking ship onto the winning ship (or at least the winning ship at the moment - I'm sure Shae never expected Tyrion to be freed and kill her).Quoteshe jumped ship. Just like Bronn.
I do not think Bronn jumped ship completely. Only a fool would face the mountain and he was still was friendly with Tyrion. I consider him more a realist than a back stabber. Shae's was a total betrayal. Shae betrayed Tyrion's love but to be fair she was a prostitute. Bron was always a rogue. A savage killer but he generally is only as savage as his employer's mandates. He was always out to back the winning side. Both used their bodies for advancement. One for sex the other for killing and both clearly used Tyrion. One shows regret, Bronn, but the other does not, Shae. Tyrion had an escape route for Shae but none for Bronn. Bronn did what an anyone would do and try to survive. ( everyone talks brave but in my army experience friends who will fight with you or for you in a bar fight are rare birds). Shae was safely gone and came back and totally hosed Tyrion.
This already happened so I do not consider it spoiler and it happened several shows ago. In book he takes an offer from Cersei to marry into Stokeworths and refuses to fight the Mountain. He does not completely forget Tyrion though. In TV it is largely the same but he comes and sees him in his cell. The difference is Bronn shows regret at being an opportunity. Shae does not at all.
One thing, I always found fascinating is where Martin got his ideas. I always thought the War of Roses was an inspiration for GoT. York and Lancester sound a lot like Stark and Lannister. it is certainly not the only influence but I believe it is one.
All NBA and Got fans need to watch this it is very funny, we make an appearance in episode 2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St5PLcxZy44&feature=kp
Poor Oberyn ...He was trying to get him to say who ordered it
I don't have much sympathy for him though. He broke the #1 rule in a "Until Death" fight. Don't be a showboat - just finish your opponent off.
Poor Oberyn ...He was trying to get him to say who ordered it
I don't have much sympathy for him though. He broke the #1 rule in a "Until Death" fight. Don't be a showboat - just finish your opponent off.
Pretty excited. Watched seasons 1-4 so now I'm all caught up. Not as detailed as I would like, but that doesn't suit TV anyway.
So many changes from the books to this season. I think one of the changes from last night did a great job of foreshadowing one of the battles that was left hanging at the end of book 5.I really didn't like that they had Sansa as the one marrying Ramsey (mostly because in the book he bites his wife who is an Arya lookalike on her lady parts and makes her have sex with his hunting dogs and her life has been hard enough). However, if they did this to set up her killing him it might be the most satisfying part of the show.
I've never read the books so I'm completely unfamiliar with anything outside the TV show, but there's enough blatant hints here that I can confidently predict the series will end with John *Snow as the King. It's the only logical conclusion from a storytelling perspective. Obviously the identity of his mother will play a part in that. At this point, I'd be shocked if his mother isn't who I think it is.who do you think his mother is?
Wasn't the it pretty much assumed early on that she was a Edited. Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. in a brothel somewhere in the Seven Kingdoms? There didn't seem to be much discussion of her as far as I can remember (haven't read any of the books, either).I've never read the books so I'm completely unfamiliar with anything outside the TV show, but there's enough blatant hints here that I can confidently predict the series will end with John *Snow as the King. It's the only logical conclusion from a storytelling perspective. Obviously the identity of his mother will play a part in that. At this point, I'd be shocked if his mother isn't who I think it is.who do you think his mother is?
I've never read the books so I'm completely unfamiliar with anything outside the TV show, but there's enough blatant hints here that I can confidently predict the series will end with John *Snow as the King. It's the only logical conclusion from a storytelling perspective. Obviously the identity of his mother will play a part in that. At this point, I'd be shocked if his mother isn't who I think it is.
Beat me to it. TP.I've never read the books so I'm completely unfamiliar with anything outside the TV show, but there's enough blatant hints here that I can confidently predict the series will end with John *Snow as the King. It's the only logical conclusion from a storytelling perspective. Obviously the identity of his mother will play a part in that. At this point, I'd be shocked if his mother isn't who I think it is.
There are actually several fan theories on this. SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO DON"T WANT TO SEE THEM.
One is that he's actually the son of Rhaegar Targaryan and Ned's sister, Lyanna Stark, who was supposedly kidnapped and r**** by Rhaegar. However, many think they were actually in love, and the story just came out that way. Another theory is that he's actually King Robert's son, and Lyanna Stark (his lover) was secretly pregnant with him and didn't tell Robert. I'm guessing it's the first of these two.
EDIT: Either way, he'd have an excellent claim to the throne. By the way, I edited the "R word" just in case there were children on this thread. I'm surprised it wasn't already in code.
Just an FYI, the fourth episode is leaked online. I believe I heard somewhere that all four were leaked online the day it premiered. Supposedly there's a huge cliff hanger at the end of the fourth episode for Daenerys' team, too.Can you give me a link to watch it?
The first theory is clearly where they are going with it. At some point he'll walk out of a fire or ride a dragon. Series will end with him as king. The more I watch the show the more I feel like the entire thing is just John Snow's story and everything else is secondary. The circumstances surrounding his birth lead to the rebellion. The Starks main purpose in the story is to give context to John's moral upbringing. The Lannisters and Baratheons give context to the world John is going up against. Daenerys is there to give context to his family's lineage and introduce the Dragons that inevitably will abandon her for John (either through her death or her neglect). The storyline of the Wall is to show the young padawan paying his dues as a capable leader. The bit with clairvoyant Stark probably serves a purpose of discovering the real story behind John's birth.I've never read the books so I'm completely unfamiliar with anything outside the TV show, but there's enough blatant hints here that I can confidently predict the series will end with John *Snow as the King. It's the only logical conclusion from a storytelling perspective. Obviously the identity of his mother will play a part in that. At this point, I'd be shocked if his mother isn't who I think it is.
There are actually several fan theories on this. SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO DON"T WANT TO SEE THEM.
One is that he's actually the son of Rhaegar Targaryan and Ned's sister, Lyanna Stark, who was supposedly kidnapped and r**** by Rhaegar. However, many think they were actually in love, and the story just came out that way. Another theory is that he's actually King Robert's son, and Lyanna Stark (his lover) was secretly pregnant with him and didn't tell Robert. I'm guessing it's the first of these two.
EDIT: Either way, he'd have an excellent claim to the throne. By the way, I edited the "R word" just in case there were children on this thread. I'm surprised it wasn't already in code.
While Snow being Rhaegar+Lyanna's kid is very likely correct, I don't really think the series will end with him or anyone else as king of Westeros. I have a sneaking suspicion Daenaryes or someone else will use her dragons to melt the Iron Throne back down into scrap and revolutionize the social order.I think Daenaryes herself is a red herring. Everyone is going to kill each other off (probably her as well), John will somehow be able to control the dragons... and when the dust settles he'll not only have the power, but the people's vote. The best of both worlds... Targareon power and Stark morality. Wolves and Dragons. I just can't think of anyone else from a storyline perspective.
It's been a pretty frequent theme that artifacts of power don't mean anything, power is just where people think it is. The Iron Throne and who's sitting on it is just a red herring in the bigger scheme of things.
My guess on who will be on throne is based on who will lead the fight against the white walkers. Its suppose to be the three wolves, the eagle, the shadowcat, and the bear lead the kingdom against the white walkers. But the Show/books will probably end there. Trying to figure out who is each if it's literal based on banners then it is John/Wolf as king of the wall, Rickon/Wolf as Warden of the north, Arya/shadowcat faceless high assassin, Bran/Wolf the 3 eyed crow, Mormount/Bear lead general of the 7 kingdoms, and Sansa/eagle Ward of the west with likely Daenaryes on the Iron throne as Mormount is her master of war.I take it you've read the books, because I have no idea what prophecy you are referring to. I'll just say, I hope Sansa is murdered by her own sister at some point.
But then again if not literal then eagle could be Jamie and the bear could be Brieanne and Tyrion could be on the throne?
While Snow being Rhaegar+Lyanna's kid is very likely correct, I don't really think the series will end with him or anyone else as king of Westeros. I have a sneaking suspicion Daenaryes or someone else will use her dragons to melt the Iron Throne back down into scrap and revolutionize the social order.I think Daenaryes herself is a red herring. Everyone is going to kill each other off (probably her as well), John will somehow be able to control the dragons... and when the dust settles he'll not only have the power, but the people's vote. The best of both worlds... Targareon power and Stark morality. Wolves and Dragons. I just can't think of anyone else from a storyline perspective.
It's been a pretty frequent theme that artifacts of power don't mean anything, power is just where people think it is. The Iron Throne and who's sitting on it is just a red herring in the bigger scheme of things.
I read the books and don't remember any area where it was discussed that to beat the Others/White Walkers that it would be done by 3 wolves, a bear, an eagle, etc.My guess on who will be on throne is based on who will lead the fight against the white walkers. Its suppose to be the three wolves, the eagle, the shadowcat, and the bear lead the kingdom against the white walkers. But the Show/books will probably end there. Trying to figure out who is each if it's literal based on banners then it is John/Wolf as king of the wall, Rickon/Wolf as Warden of the north, Arya/shadowcat faceless high assassin, Bran/Wolf the 3 eyed crow, Mormount/Bear lead general of the 7 kingdoms, and Sansa/eagle Ward of the west with likely Daenaryes on the Iron throne as Mormount is her master of war.I take it you've read the books, because I have no idea what prophecy you are referring to. I'll just say, I hope Sansa is murdered by her own sister at some point.
But then again if not literal then eagle could be Jamie and the bear could be Brieanne and Tyrion could be on the throne?
I read the books and don't remember any area where it was discussed that to beat the Others/White Walkers that it would be done by 3 wolves, a bear, an eagle, etc.My guess on who will be on throne is based on who will lead the fight against the white walkers. Its suppose to be the three wolves, the eagle, the shadowcat, and the bear lead the kingdom against the white walkers. But the Show/books will probably end there. Trying to figure out who is each if it's literal based on banners then it is John/Wolf as king of the wall, Rickon/Wolf as Warden of the north, Arya/shadowcat faceless high assassin, Bran/Wolf the 3 eyed crow, Mormount/Bear lead general of the 7 kingdoms, and Sansa/eagle Ward of the west with likely Daenaryes on the Iron throne as Mormount is her master of war.I take it you've read the books, because I have no idea what prophecy you are referring to. I'll just say, I hope Sansa is murdered by her own sister at some point.
But then again if not literal then eagle could be Jamie and the bear could be Brieanne and Tyrion could be on the throne?
I think this might be some fan speculation much like who the mother of Jon Snow is. I don't believe Martin has said anything about what was needed to beat the Others other than dragon glass and dragon fire.
While Snow being Rhaegar+Lyanna's kid is very likely correct, I don't really think the series will end with him or anyone else as king of Westeros. I have a sneaking suspicion Daenaryes or someone else will use her dragons to melt the Iron Throne back down into scrap and revolutionize the social order.I think Daenaryes herself is a red herring. Everyone is going to kill each other off (probably her as well), John will somehow be able to control the dragons... and when the dust settles he'll not only have the power, but the people's vote. The best of both worlds... Targareon power and Stark morality. Wolves and Dragons. I just can't think of anyone else from a storyline perspective.
It's been a pretty frequent theme that artifacts of power don't mean anything, power is just where people think it is. The Iron Throne and who's sitting on it is just a red herring in the bigger scheme of things.
Or they could rule together since Targaryen's regularly wed brothers and sisters to keep the bloodlines pure. I've also sort of thought that's how it would end.
However, with Jon being so loyal to the Night's Watch, he may never end up leaving there and just rule as Lord Commander of the Wall.
I've only read the first book in the series, so I'm sure there are even more clues in the book that we're missing. I think the best part of the series will be the fight against the White Walkers. That part hasn't even been reached in the books yet has it?
While Snow being Rhaegar+Lyanna's kid is very likely correct, I don't really think the series will end with him or anyone else as king of Westeros. I have a sneaking suspicion Daenaryes or someone else will use her dragons to melt the Iron Throne back down into scrap and revolutionize the social order.I think Daenaryes herself is a red herring. Everyone is going to kill each other off (probably her as well), John will somehow be able to control the dragons... and when the dust settles he'll not only have the power, but the people's vote. The best of both worlds... Targareon power and Stark morality. Wolves and Dragons. I just can't think of anyone else from a storyline perspective.
It's been a pretty frequent theme that artifacts of power don't mean anything, power is just where people think it is. The Iron Throne and who's sitting on it is just a red herring in the bigger scheme of things.
Or they could rule together since Targaryen's regularly wed brothers and sisters to keep the bloodlines pure. I've also sort of thought that's how it would end.
However, with Jon being so loyal to the Night's Watch, he may never end up leaving there and just rule as Lord Commander of the Wall.
I've only read the first book in the series, so I'm sure there are even more clues in the book that we're missing. I think the best part of the series will be the fight against the White Walkers. That part hasn't even been reached in the books yet has it?
I think that might happen at some point (the Jon/Dany thing) but I don't think it'll end up there. Just don't think this will have a "happily ever after" or even a "things went back to normal" ending. I think the whole point of the conflict is to end Westeros as it had been and start a new era. Just plopping another king down in the same spot doesn't seem to fit, especially since Martin supposedly wrote the books because he found the Lord of the Rings ending with Aragorn becoming the superbest king ever annoying and simplistic.
Sixskins is one of the foreshadowing parts but there are a bunch that repeat the same. The 7 as well as others. Some good stuff when ever there is a dream. It's not directly stated any where if it was what would be the point of reading the book.I read the books and don't remember any area where it was discussed that to beat the Others/White Walkers that it would be done by 3 wolves, a bear, an eagle, etc.My guess on who will be on throne is based on who will lead the fight against the white walkers. Its suppose to be the three wolves, the eagle, the shadowcat, and the bear lead the kingdom against the white walkers. But the Show/books will probably end there. Trying to figure out who is each if it's literal based on banners then it is John/Wolf as king of the wall, Rickon/Wolf as Warden of the north, Arya/shadowcat faceless high assassin, Bran/Wolf the 3 eyed crow, Mormount/Bear lead general of the 7 kingdoms, and Sansa/eagle Ward of the west with likely Daenaryes on the Iron throne as Mormount is her master of war.I take it you've read the books, because I have no idea what prophecy you are referring to. I'll just say, I hope Sansa is murdered by her own sister at some point.
But then again if not literal then eagle could be Jamie and the bear could be Brieanne and Tyrion could be on the throne?
I think this might be some fan speculation much like who the mother of Jon Snow is. I don't believe Martin has said anything about what was needed to beat the Others other than dragon glass and dragon fire.
I thought this was a legend/fairy tale about the last time the White Walkers were beaten, but I looked it up and all I can find is that some warg possessed those animals (the guy named "Sixskins") So I dunno.
Dany's older brother is Jon's father. Dany is Jon's Aunt. She gun die.While Snow being Rhaegar+Lyanna's kid is very likely correct, I don't really think the series will end with him or anyone else as king of Westeros. I have a sneaking suspicion Daenaryes or someone else will use her dragons to melt the Iron Throne back down into scrap and revolutionize the social order.I think Daenaryes herself is a red herring. Everyone is going to kill each other off (probably her as well), John will somehow be able to control the dragons... and when the dust settles he'll not only have the power, but the people's vote. The best of both worlds... Targareon power and Stark morality. Wolves and Dragons. I just can't think of anyone else from a storyline perspective.
It's been a pretty frequent theme that artifacts of power don't mean anything, power is just where people think it is. The Iron Throne and who's sitting on it is just a red herring in the bigger scheme of things.
Or they could rule together since Targaryen's regularly wed brothers and sisters to keep the bloodlines pure. I've also sort of thought that's how it would end.
However, with Jon being so loyal to the Night's Watch, he may never end up leaving there and just rule as Lord Commander of the Wall.
I've only read the first book in the series, so I'm sure there are even more clues in the book that we're missing. I think the best part of the series will be the fight against the White Walkers. That part hasn't even been reached in the books yet has it?
I think that might happen at some point (the Jon/Dany thing) but I don't think it'll end up there. Just don't think this will have a "happily ever after" or even a "things went back to normal" ending. I think the whole point of the conflict is to end Westeros as it had been and start a new era. Just plopping another king down in the same spot doesn't seem to fit, especially since Martin supposedly wrote the books because he found the Lord of the Rings ending with Aragorn becoming the superbest king ever annoying and simplistic.
Tyrion could John's uncle and Danny's older half brother. Mad king was supposed have r*** Tywins wife which is why Tywin got angry and left Kings landing and title of the hand.Dany's older brother is Jon's father. Dany is Jon's Aunt. She gun die.While Snow being Rhaegar+Lyanna's kid is very likely correct, I don't really think the series will end with him or anyone else as king of Westeros. I have a sneaking suspicion Daenaryes or someone else will use her dragons to melt the Iron Throne back down into scrap and revolutionize the social order.I think Daenaryes herself is a red herring. Everyone is going to kill each other off (probably her as well), John will somehow be able to control the dragons... and when the dust settles he'll not only have the power, but the people's vote. The best of both worlds... Targareon power and Stark morality. Wolves and Dragons. I just can't think of anyone else from a storyline perspective.
It's been a pretty frequent theme that artifacts of power don't mean anything, power is just where people think it is. The Iron Throne and who's sitting on it is just a red herring in the bigger scheme of things.
Or they could rule together since Targaryen's regularly wed brothers and sisters to keep the bloodlines pure. I've also sort of thought that's how it would end.
However, with Jon being so loyal to the Night's Watch, he may never end up leaving there and just rule as Lord Commander of the Wall.
I've only read the first book in the series, so I'm sure there are even more clues in the book that we're missing. I think the best part of the series will be the fight against the White Walkers. That part hasn't even been reached in the books yet has it?
I think that might happen at some point (the Jon/Dany thing) but I don't think it'll end up there. Just don't think this will have a "happily ever after" or even a "things went back to normal" ending. I think the whole point of the conflict is to end Westeros as it had been and start a new era. Just plopping another king down in the same spot doesn't seem to fit, especially since Martin supposedly wrote the books because he found the Lord of the Rings ending with Aragorn becoming the superbest king ever annoying and simplistic.
Tyrion could John's uncle and Danny's older half brother. Mad king was supposed have r*** Tywins wife which is why Tywin got angry and left Kings landing and title of the hand.Dany's older brother is Jon's father. Dany is Jon's Aunt. She gun die.While Snow being Rhaegar+Lyanna's kid is very likely correct, I don't really think the series will end with him or anyone else as king of Westeros. I have a sneaking suspicion Daenaryes or someone else will use her dragons to melt the Iron Throne back down into scrap and revolutionize the social order.I think Daenaryes herself is a red herring. Everyone is going to kill each other off (probably her as well), John will somehow be able to control the dragons... and when the dust settles he'll not only have the power, but the people's vote. The best of both worlds... Targareon power and Stark morality. Wolves and Dragons. I just can't think of anyone else from a storyline perspective.
It's been a pretty frequent theme that artifacts of power don't mean anything, power is just where people think it is. The Iron Throne and who's sitting on it is just a red herring in the bigger scheme of things.
Or they could rule together since Targaryen's regularly wed brothers and sisters to keep the bloodlines pure. I've also sort of thought that's how it would end.
However, with Jon being so loyal to the Night's Watch, he may never end up leaving there and just rule as Lord Commander of the Wall.
I've only read the first book in the series, so I'm sure there are even more clues in the book that we're missing. I think the best part of the series will be the fight against the White Walkers. That part hasn't even been reached in the books yet has it?
I think that might happen at some point (the Jon/Dany thing) but I don't think it'll end up there. Just don't think this will have a "happily ever after" or even a "things went back to normal" ending. I think the whole point of the conflict is to end Westeros as it had been and start a new era. Just plopping another king down in the same spot doesn't seem to fit, especially since Martin supposedly wrote the books because he found the Lord of the Rings ending with Aragorn becoming the superbest king ever annoying and simplistic.
Read Martins the World of Ice and Fire. It gives a long history of Westeros before TSOIAF. In it it is discussed at length that Tywin Lannister left Kings Landing in protest of Mad Aerys naming Jamie to the Kingsguard as well as many ruling policy conflicts. It had nothing to do with Tywins wife possibly being raped. Again, that isn't even mentioned. It's just internet conjecture.Tyrion could John's uncle and Danny's older half brother. Mad king was supposed have r*** Tywins wife which is why Tywin got angry and left Kings landing and title of the hand.Dany's older brother is Jon's father. Dany is Jon's Aunt. She gun die.While Snow being Rhaegar+Lyanna's kid is very likely correct, I don't really think the series will end with him or anyone else as king of Westeros. I have a sneaking suspicion Daenaryes or someone else will use her dragons to melt the Iron Throne back down into scrap and revolutionize the social order.I think Daenaryes herself is a red herring. Everyone is going to kill each other off (probably her as well), John will somehow be able to control the dragons... and when the dust settles he'll not only have the power, but the people's vote. The best of both worlds... Targareon power and Stark morality. Wolves and Dragons. I just can't think of anyone else from a storyline perspective.
It's been a pretty frequent theme that artifacts of power don't mean anything, power is just where people think it is. The Iron Throne and who's sitting on it is just a red herring in the bigger scheme of things.
Or they could rule together since Targaryen's regularly wed brothers and sisters to keep the bloodlines pure. I've also sort of thought that's how it would end.
However, with Jon being so loyal to the Night's Watch, he may never end up leaving there and just rule as Lord Commander of the Wall.
I've only read the first book in the series, so I'm sure there are even more clues in the book that we're missing. I think the best part of the series will be the fight against the White Walkers. That part hasn't even been reached in the books yet has it?
I think that might happen at some point (the Jon/Dany thing) but I don't think it'll end up there. Just don't think this will have a "happily ever after" or even a "things went back to normal" ending. I think the whole point of the conflict is to end Westeros as it had been and start a new era. Just plopping another king down in the same spot doesn't seem to fit, especially since Martin supposedly wrote the books because he found the Lord of the Rings ending with Aragorn becoming the superbest king ever annoying and simplistic.
I read them. I didn't say it was a sure thing as it hasn't been written. I believe it could be possible, its why I wrote could and supposedly have and not "is". I firmly think policy isn't a reason to leave the second highest position in the kingdom. Also Jamie wanted to be a kings guard wasn't like the Aerys just did it out the blue.Read Martins the World of Ice and Fire. It gives a long history of Westeros before TSOIAF. In it it is discussed at length that Tywin Lannister left Kings Landing in protest of Mad Aerys naming Jamie to the Kingsguard as well as many ruling policy conflicts. It had nothing to do with Tywins wife possibly being raped. Again, that isn't even mentioned. It's just internet conjecture.Tyrion could John's uncle and Danny's older half brother. Mad king was supposed have r*** Tywins wife which is why Tywin got angry and left Kings landing and title of the hand.Dany's older brother is Jon's father. Dany is Jon's Aunt. She gun die.While Snow being Rhaegar+Lyanna's kid is very likely correct, I don't really think the series will end with him or anyone else as king of Westeros. I have a sneaking suspicion Daenaryes or someone else will use her dragons to melt the Iron Throne back down into scrap and revolutionize the social order.I think Daenaryes herself is a red herring. Everyone is going to kill each other off (probably her as well), John will somehow be able to control the dragons... and when the dust settles he'll not only have the power, but the people's vote. The best of both worlds... Targareon power and Stark morality. Wolves and Dragons. I just can't think of anyone else from a storyline perspective.
It's been a pretty frequent theme that artifacts of power don't mean anything, power is just where people think it is. The Iron Throne and who's sitting on it is just a red herring in the bigger scheme of things.
Or they could rule together since Targaryen's regularly wed brothers and sisters to keep the bloodlines pure. I've also sort of thought that's how it would end.
However, with Jon being so loyal to the Night's Watch, he may never end up leaving there and just rule as Lord Commander of the Wall.
I've only read the first book in the series, so I'm sure there are even more clues in the book that we're missing. I think the best part of the series will be the fight against the White Walkers. That part hasn't even been reached in the books yet has it?
I think that might happen at some point (the Jon/Dany thing) but I don't think it'll end up there. Just don't think this will have a "happily ever after" or even a "things went back to normal" ending. I think the whole point of the conflict is to end Westeros as it had been and start a new era. Just plopping another king down in the same spot doesn't seem to fit, especially since Martin supposedly wrote the books because he found the Lord of the Rings ending with Aragorn becoming the superbest king ever annoying and simplistic.
If you read the books, you kow the whole thing with the Iron Throne is secondary to the storyline at the Wall.
Speaking of crazy fan theories, you might want to check this one out.
http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.de/2013/05/ragnarok-song-of-ice-fire.html
Tonight was some devilish ish....tuff to watch....It made me so mad. It's not like Sansa hasn't gone through enough.
I thought the show handled the wedding night scene for Sansa rather well, actually. No more explicit and triggering than it had to be, though I suppose there's an argument for actually showing the pain on her face rather than focusing on how viewing it affected Theon / Reek.The rape itself, doesn't bother me as much as the thought that Ramsey will treat Sansa like he treated Jayne Poole in the books. The rape leads me to believe this will be the case. If that happens I don't think I will be able to watch.
Putting Sansa in Winterfell seems to be important for where the plot is going. I trust the show runners on that one.
Given that, Sansa had to be in an arranged marriage with a guy we know to be a brutal sadist. Even if he weren't a brutal sadist, it's still an arranged marriage in which the woman has virtually no say. So, a rape on the wedding night is basically a foregone conclusion. That's the reality in the GoT universe, and it was the reality for thousands of years in our world (still is the reality in some places). Arranged marriages very often lead to marital rape.
Would it have been better for GoT to not show it to us? Or should the show have conveniently steered Sansa away from such an eventuality, despite the fact that she is still being used as a political pawn? I mean, they could have done something to stop it, like have Theon break out of Reek-mode and kill Ramsay before he begins, or they could have had Sansa go all Buffy out of nowhere and defend herself.
They could have used any number of Deus Ex Machinas to get her out of that situation. But that would have been a much worse sin, in my opinion, than reminding the viewers once again that this is a dark, medieval world where women largely get treated, violently, as property.
Tonight was some devilish ish....tuff to watch....I feel like I'm watching a different television show from everyone else. Maybe Sansa's character is more sympathetic in the books... and the stuff Joffrey put her through in the early seasons was truly horrifying. But at this point, the show seems to go to great lengths to present Sansa as though she has options. It's seems like once a week someone offers her a lifeline that she refuses. Whether it's the Hound, or Brienne, some rando at Kings landing, etc. Even Littlefinger sort of presents the Bolton marriage as a choice. At some point, it's hard to say she isn't in that situation partially because she wants to be.
Sansa knew what a wedding night typically entailed. The show really doesn't seem to be presenting it as though she is helpless. She has her own agenda here. It's the same agenda that kept her in Kingslanding way longer than she needed to stay there.
Given that, Sansa had to be in an arranged marriage with a guy we know to be a brutal sadist. Even if he weren't a brutal sadist, it's still an arranged marriage in which the woman has virtually no say. So, a rape on the wedding night is basically a foregone conclusion. That's the reality in the GoT universe, and it was the reality for thousands of years in our world (still is the reality in some places). Arranged marriages very often lead to marital rape.
This is interesting, I hadn't thought of it like that.Tonight was some devilish ish....tuff to watch....I feel like I'm watching a different television show from everyone else. Maybe Sansa's character is more sympathetic in the books... and the stuff Joffrey put her through in the early seasons was truly horrifying. But at this point, the show seems to go to great lengths to present Sansa as though she has options. It's seems like once a week someone offers her a lifeline that she refuses. Whether it's the Hound, or Brienne, some rando at Kings landing, etc. Even Littlefinger sort of presents the Bolton marriage as a choice. At some point, it's hard to say she isn't in that situation partially because she wants to be.
In a way, she seems to have a lot in common with Cersei and Maergery. All of them grew up with grand illusions of living in a pretty castle as the wife of some prince/king. No matter how deplorable their situations get, they never sway from that goal. Whereas that scene was probably supposed to mirror Dany's wedding night, it's not really the same. Dany was completely powerless and forced into that against her will. Sansa has a big part in making the bed.
I know I can't be the only person who feels this way. A friend of mine commented that Sansa is such a passive bystander to her family's downfall that Arya might as well add Sansa's name to her kill list.
I'm sure it wasn't pleasant, but Sansa is playing the game of thrones. Women in this show use their sexuality to play the game. It's partially her choice she's in Winterfell. On some level she knew what she was getting herself into.
Doesn't change the fact that at some point I hope Sansa grows a spine and takes out Ramsay in his sleep.
Ok I give you that she's naive. A damsel in distress. She trusts the wrong people. I'm not doubting that Littlefinger is playing her... but she seems convinced that she's where she needs to be and they seemed to present it as though she was marrying Bolton by choice.This is interesting, I hadn't thought of it like that.Tonight was some devilish ish....tuff to watch....I feel like I'm watching a different television show from everyone else. Maybe Sansa's character is more sympathetic in the books... and the stuff Joffrey put her through in the early seasons was truly horrifying. But at this point, the show seems to go to great lengths to present Sansa as though she has options. It's seems like once a week someone offers her a lifeline that she refuses. Whether it's the Hound, or Brienne, some rando at Kings landing, etc. Even Littlefinger sort of presents the Bolton marriage as a choice. At some point, it's hard to say she isn't in that situation partially because she wants to be.
In a way, she seems to have a lot in common with Cersei and Maergery. All of them grew up with grand illusions of living in a pretty castle as the wife of some prince/king. No matter how deplorable their situations get, they never sway from that goal. Whereas that scene was probably supposed to mirror Dany's wedding night, it's not really the same. Dany was completely powerless and forced into that against her will. Sansa has a big part in making the bed.
I know I can't be the only person who feels this way. A friend of mine commented that Sansa is such a passive bystander to her family's downfall that Arya might as well add Sansa's name to her kill list.
I'm sure it wasn't pleasant, but Sansa is playing the game of thrones. Women in this show use their sexuality to play the game. It's partially her choice she's in Winterfell. On some level she knew what she was getting herself into.
Doesn't change the fact that at some point I hope Sansa grows a spine and takes out Ramsay in his sleep.
I guess why she is such a sympathetic character is it seems like she has no control over anything and doesn't have the ability to change things.
Where Cersei and Margery seem conniving and power hungry, all Sansa ever wants is to go back home and live the way she used to. I guess to me she becomes more sympathetic because she seems helpless.
I think she went back to Winterfell to marry Ramsey because all she wants is to go home and have things the way the were. Is she kind of naive and stupid? Yes, but I feel that people like that need the most protection which is why it is all the more sad that everyone is using her instead of helping her. She is the quintessential damsel in distress.
Why couldn't they have just left her in the Vale like they did in the book?
Sansa knew what a wedding night typically entailed. The show really doesn't seem to be presenting it as though she is helpless. She has her own agenda here. It's the same agenda that kept her in Kingslanding way longer than she needed to stay there.
Given that, Sansa had to be in an arranged marriage with a guy we know to be a brutal sadist. Even if he weren't a brutal sadist, it's still an arranged marriage in which the woman has virtually no say. So, a rape on the wedding night is basically a foregone conclusion. That's the reality in the GoT universe, and it was the reality for thousands of years in our world (still is the reality in some places). Arranged marriages very often lead to marital rape.
I understand how some folks will look at that scene through the lens of our modern society. People freaked out over the Jamie/Cersei "rape" scene as well... even though it was presented as though Cersei was just testing Jamie's manhood after he lost a hand... and it basically seemed consensual.
People will freak out about this scene as well, but in that world post-marriage sex is a certainty. Sansa knew what to expect there. Sure, she still doesn't understand the full scope of Bolton's insanity... and probably wasn't expected Reek to watch... but she knew what to expect there... and she seems to (at least partially) be in that situation by choice.
Extraordinarily lazy storytelling based out of the fact that they shoehorned a couple characters from the books into one show character: the rape is entirely a construct to give Theon a way to be more extraordinarily aggrieved. In the books it's a minor character, in the show it's a quickly-overexplained plot device.
Ze wemminz are in danger, m'lord! Doesn't that stir at the depths of your impotence?!
::)
Sansa knew what a wedding night typically entailed. The show really doesn't seem to be presenting it as though she is helpless. She has her own agenda here. It's the same agenda that kept her in Kingslanding way longer than she needed to stay there.
Given that, Sansa had to be in an arranged marriage with a guy we know to be a brutal sadist. Even if he weren't a brutal sadist, it's still an arranged marriage in which the woman has virtually no say. So, a rape on the wedding night is basically a foregone conclusion. That's the reality in the GoT universe, and it was the reality for thousands of years in our world (still is the reality in some places). Arranged marriages very often lead to marital rape.
I understand how some folks will look at that scene through the lens of our modern society. People freaked out over the Jamie/Cersei "rape" scene as well... even though it was presented as though Cersei was just testing Jamie's manhood after he lost a hand... and it basically seemed consensual.
People will freak out about this scene as well, but in that world post-marriage sex is a certainty. Sansa knew what to expect there. Sure, she still doesn't understand the full scope of Bolton's insanity... and probably wasn't expected Reek to watch... but she knew what to expect there... and she seems to (at least partially) be in that situation by choice.
All of that may be true, but that doesn't make it not rape.
Extraordinarily lazy storytelling based out of the fact that they shoehorned a couple characters from the books into one show character: the rape is entirely a construct to give Theon a way to be more extraordinarily aggrieved. In the books it's a minor character, in the show it's a quickly-overexplained plot device.
Ze wemminz are in danger, m'lord! Doesn't that stir at the depths of your impotence?!
::)
Yeah, I do have some concern that they are using this primarily as a way to help develop Theon's character so that he can have a way back to humanity rather than just being "Reek."
Using more violence against a woman for the sake of redeeming / developing a male character is something this show can stand to avoid.
You can trace all of this back to Martin failing to keep certain of the main characters involved in the central flow of the storyline, though, forcing the show runners to come up with ways to get some of them back into the mix, occasionally with awkward or just plain cringe-worthy results.
In a Good TV show, there are only so many times you can take a main character, set them off to the side somewhere and just hand-wave them being out of the picture for an entire season worth of material.
Just finished watching the episode. I'm pretty sure I've never hated a character more than Cersei, and the closest ones have been Joffrey, or Andrea and the Governor off of TWD.
I think that fight back will come soon, and Theon will help her. I was hoping he would re-emerge and slit Ramsey's throat last night. I think Pod and Briene will also factor into her escape.
They have not really developed Sansa's skillset to be anything more than a pawn in the game of thrones to be married off. Arya will be an assassin, Jon a ranger, what skills does Sansa have?
"Wait, you mean to say you had sex with your husband on your wedding night?... you... you consummated your marriage!?!? Oh the horror!... Arrest that man! He followed the laws of the land and took his arranged bride on their wedding night... Arrest him!"
Honestly I was way more bummed about Bronn's death than I was about Sansa consummating the marriage she's been on board with for a few weeks.
I've learned to never think a character is dead until I actually see him die. In the books Martin made it seem like someone was dead, only to have them be alive later in the book. I will believe Bronn is dead once I see him completely dead.
"Wait, you mean to say you had sex with your husband on your wedding night?... you... you consummated your marriage!?!? Oh the horror!... Arrest that man! He followed the laws of the land and took his arranged bride on their wedding night... Arrest him!"
I mean, marital rape was perfectly legal not that long ago in our own world, let alone Westeros.
That's obviously not the point.Honestly I was way more bummed about Bronn's death than I was about Sansa consummating the marriage she's been on board with for a few weeks.
I think we can acknowledge that Sansa willingly went into the arranged marriage and probably had some idea of what was coming without suggesting it's no big deal that she was the victim of sexual violence.
They didn't actually show Bronn dying, right? Not yet. They just showed us that he got cut with the Sand Snake blade, which means he'll die slowly of poison.
This of course is why they showed us the conversation about how Bronn would prefer a boring death when he is old.
Bronn and Jamie sneaking around in disguise was about as cheesy as I've seen this show get.Seems a lot of people feel like that entire bit was rushed and hacky. Not a lot of fans of how the "sand snakes" were presented. It felt very cliche fantasy. The show seems to shy away from that.
Bronn and Jamie sneaking around in disguise was about as cheesy as I've seen this show get.Seems a lot of people feel like that entire bit was rushed and hacky. Not a lot of fans of how the "sand snakes" were presented. It felt very cliche fantasy. The show seems to shy away from that.
Complaining?Not at all, but if you think Ramsay lives at the end of this I think your in error. He will die, it is just a matter of when. Of course, he may do a lot of evil between now and then. I like to see the bad guys get theirs, of course, in GoT a lot of good guys get theirs too.
They didn't actually show Bronn dying, right? Not yet. They just showed us that he got cut with the Sand Snake blade, which means he'll die slowly of poison.
QuoteComplaining?Not at all, but if you think Ramsay lives at the end of this I think your in error. He will die, it is just a matter of when. Of course, he may do a lot of evil between now and then. I like to see the bad guys get theirs, of course, in GoT a lot of good guys get theirs too.
At first, it was edgy and unique to Martian, but he has actually got relatively predictable and so has the show. The good often suffer and the bad persist seems to be a rather common theme throughout. Those who are not ruthless suffer.QuoteThey didn't actually show Bronn dying, right? Not yet. They just showed us that he got cut with the Sand Snake blade, which means he'll die slowly of poison.
My thoughts exactly, I hate to see him possibly go. Though it was pleasant to hear him sing, which is what he did before acting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5V8ecsrxeY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fgUY-kXlBA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAcGUpQJsjQ
I'm just wondering when Theon is going to tell Sansa he didn't kill Bran and Rickon. I mean he has to do that or there is no way she will ever go anywhere with him and they seemingly do need to end up with Stannis at some point.
QuoteI'm just wondering when Theon is going to tell Sansa he didn't kill Bran and Rickon. I mean he has to do that or there is no way she will ever go anywhere with him and they seemingly do need to end up with Stannis at some point.
The book has a scene where Bran talks to him by whisper through a tree. People think that will happen and Sansa will over hear him.
QuoteI'm just wondering when Theon is going to tell Sansa he didn't kill Bran and Rickon. I mean he has to do that or there is no way she will ever go anywhere with him and they seemingly do need to end up with Stannis at some point.
The book has a scene where Bran talks to him by whisper through a tree. People think that will happen and Sansa will over hear him.
I always wondered if the younger brother Rickon(?) will ever resurface. Martin wrote thousands of pages with nary a mention of him again.
QuoteI'm just wondering when Theon is going to tell Sansa he didn't kill Bran and Rickon. I mean he has to do that or there is no way she will ever go anywhere with him and they seemingly do need to end up with Stannis at some point.
The book has a scene where Bran talks to him by whisper through a tree. People think that will happen and Sansa will over hear him.
I always wondered if the younger brother Rickon(?) will ever resurface. Martin wrote thousands of pages with nary a mention of him again.
I always got the feeling Rickon was there just as a "safety valve" so that the story can end with a Stark in Winterfell even after all the other kids have died/left/turned into magic trees.
...and forget Sansa, why the heck didn't Theon tell Ramsay he didn't kill them? He's supposed to be totally under his thumb after all.
MINOR BOOK SPOILER (probably not show-relevant):
In the last book Davos' last scene involves him heading to an island called Skagos to go look for Rickon. So there might be a bit more Rickon in the books, but given that Davos has stayed with Stannis and the show hasn't even mentioned Skagos that I can remember, pretty sure that's not going to happen on the show.
QuoteI'm just wondering when Theon is going to tell Sansa he didn't kill Bran and Rickon. I mean he has to do that or there is no way she will ever go anywhere with him and they seemingly do need to end up with Stannis at some point.
The book has a scene where Bran talks to him by whisper through a tree. People think that will happen and Sansa will over hear him.
I always wondered if the younger brother Rickon(?) will ever resurface. Martin wrote thousands of pages with nary a mention of him again.
I always got the feeling Rickon was there just as a "safety valve" so that the story can end with a Stark in Winterfell even after all the other kids have died/left/turned into magic trees.
...and forget Sansa, why the heck didn't Theon tell Ramsay he didn't kill them? He's supposed to be totally under his thumb after all.
MINOR BOOK SPOILER (probably not show-relevant):
In the last book Davos' last scene involves him heading to an island called Skagos to go look for Rickon. So there might be a bit more Rickon in the books, but given that Davos has stayed with Stannis and the show hasn't even mentioned Skagos that I can remember, pretty sure that's not going to happen on the show.
He did tell him, didn't he? I thought he knew about Bran, Rickon, and Jon Snow all being alive, and Ramsay told Roose, who sent his one guy after them all.
QuoteI'm just wondering when Theon is going to tell Sansa he didn't kill Bran and Rickon. I mean he has to do that or there is no way she will ever go anywhere with him and they seemingly do need to end up with Stannis at some point.
The book has a scene where Bran talks to him by whisper through a tree. People think that will happen and Sansa will over hear him.
I always wondered if the younger brother Rickon(?) will ever resurface. Martin wrote thousands of pages with nary a mention of him again.
I always got the feeling Rickon was there just as a "safety valve" so that the story can end with a Stark in Winterfell even after all the other kids have died/left/turned into magic trees.
...and forget Sansa, why the heck didn't Theon tell Ramsay he didn't kill them? He's supposed to be totally under his thumb after all.
MINOR BOOK SPOILER (probably not show-relevant):
In the last book Davos' last scene involves him heading to an island called Skagos to go look for Rickon. So there might be a bit more Rickon in the books, but given that Davos has stayed with Stannis and the show hasn't even mentioned Skagos that I can remember, pretty sure that's not going to happen on the show.
He did tell him, didn't he? I thought he knew about Bran, Rickon, and Jon Snow all being alive, and Ramsay told Roose, who sent his one guy after them all.
I thought that dude (Locke) was there to kill Jon Snow and just happened across Bran when they got north. I might be misremembering it though.
Ramsay is taken as a prisoner to Winterfell in the guise of Reek.[6] After Theon Greyjoy captures Winterfell, Ramsay exchanges a vow of service to Theon for his release.[10] He quickly becomes one of Theon's more trusted attendants, assisting Theon in his hunt to bring the escaped Bran and Rickon Stark back to Winterfell.[11] He orchestrates Theon's cover-up of the Stark boys' escape by killing two peasant boys of an age with the Starks, and then flaying the corpses to avoid recognition. Theon presents their flayed corpses as the Starks, then has their heads mounted on spikes over the castle walls. With the approval of Theon, Ramsay kills Gelmarr, Aggar and Gynir, ironborn who knew the truth about the bodies. Theon uses the Winterfell kennelmaster Farlen as a scapegoat and has him executed for the murders. Theon contemplates killing Reek too, but thinks better of it, fearing the servant had written and hidden an account of the truth.[8]
Good Lords of the Seven, that episode is fantastic.
The entire last 20 minutes, they got me on the edge of my seat and there's goosebumps all over. Holy crab! That was sensational.
SPOILER ALERT....Writing my response in white so a spoiler isn't revealed. Just highlight to read.
So it seems it's a safe bet now that they're going with the story of Jon Snow being a Rhaegar Targaryen's son?
SPOILER ALERT....I've only seen the show. I haven't read the books, but I hear the show is more or less caught up. If someone can't tell at this point who Jon's parents are, they simply haven't been paying attention to the show. THey drop elephant-sized hints constantly... especially this season.
So it seems it's a safe bet now that they're going with the story of Jon Snow being a Rhaegar Targaryen's son?
I've only seen the show. I haven't read the books, but I hear the show is more or less caught up. If someone can't tell at this point who Jon's parents are, they simply haven't been paying attention to the show. THey drop elephant-sized hints constantly... especially this season.I think that by now the HBO series is pretty much ahead of the books.
They are, but things happened in the books that haven't happened on the show with characters that in the same locations. Now maybe the show just skips those things, but maybe not. So maybe the show is both ahead and behind all at the same time. Now wouldn't that be something.I've only seen the show. I haven't read the books, but I hear the show is more or less caught up. If someone can't tell at this point who Jon's parents are, they simply haven't been paying attention to the show. THey drop elephant-sized hints constantly... especially this season.I think that by now the HBO series is pretty much ahead of the books.
I heard/read somewhere (this/last week's Inside the Episode?) that Martin has pretty much informed the HBO crew how the books are going to end, so they're both heading towards the same conclusion but may take slightly different routes.They are, but things happened in the books that haven't happened on the show with characters that in the same locations. Now maybe the show just skips those things, but maybe not. So maybe the show is both ahead and behind all at the same time. Now wouldn't that be something.I've only seen the show. I haven't read the books, but I hear the show is more or less caught up. If someone can't tell at this point who Jon's parents are, they simply haven't been paying attention to the show. THey drop elephant-sized hints constantly... especially this season.I think that by now the HBO series is pretty much ahead of the books.
Dang, what an excellent episode. The White Walkers are just an excellent nemesis, and the show has worked them in perfectly by not overdoing them. When the White King raised all of the slaughtered from the dead I was like...Pretty sure it was just that his sword is valeryan steel. It was forged by dragons.
(http://www.reactionface.info/sites/default/files/images/1310650820313.jpg)
SPOILERS QUESTION:
As someone who has also only watched the show (I read the first book, but I've been burnt out on leisure reading from my studies. And I thoroughly enjoy film adaptations more.), I'm unsure what Jon being unaffected by the White Walkers means for validating his Targaryen bloodline. Is it the eventual "ice vs. fire" clash? Did the Targaryens have some sort of resistance to the White Walkers? When I was watching the show, I really just thought it meant his sword that he got from Mormont was made of dragonglass.
I'm unsure what Jon being unaffected by the White Walkers means for validating his Targaryen bloodline. Is it the eventual "ice vs. fire" clash? Did the Targaryens have some sort of resistance to the White Walkers?
I heard/read somewhere (this/last week's Inside the Episode?) that Martin has pretty much informed the HBO crew how the books are going to end, so they're both heading towards the same conclusion but may take slightly different routes.
They know the ending and have said it end in roughly the same way. However, because they know the end they can take a lot of liberties in the show i.e. change people's locations, eliminate people from the books, etc.
I heard/read somewhere (this/last week's Inside the Episode?) that Martin has pretty much informed the HBO crew how the books are going to end, so they're both heading towards the same conclusion but may take slightly different routes.
I think Martis himself has said it. The producers know about the direction of the books (if not the ending) but i think they haven`t ruled out a different ending .....
Ok I'll admit my stupidity because I am intrigued. I've watched the whole show. How is it we think jons parents aren't edd stark and an unknown woman. I get that he seems like superman but what leads people to think he's the son of a targaryean instead? I'm not following that. Please enlighten me. ????
Hope you guys enjoy this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BabsgCQhpu4
Funny stuff.
http://thornography.weei.com/sports/boston/2015/06/01/i-want-300-pound-pitcher-ben-ancheff-on-red-sox/Click for a picture of Samwell Tarley in a baseball uniform :P
I've never read the books but I could have sworn there was some inference early on in the show that Jon Snow wasn't Ned's son but adopted by Ned to save face for someone close to him. Did that happen or did I imagine the inference from somewhere?Ok I'll admit my stupidity because I am intrigued. I've watched the whole show. How is it we think jons parents aren't edd stark and an unknown woman. I get that he seems like superman but what leads people to think he's the son of a targaryean instead? I'm not following that. Please enlighten me. ????
There have been some strong hints dropped that Rhaegar Targaryen (the Mad King's oldest son) wasn't a horrible person who kidnapped and raped Ned Stark's sister (the official story), but was a good guy who fell in love with Lyanna, and they eloped together.
Where people connect the dots to Jon Snow mainly comes from a scene in the books - after Ned gets speared in the knee, he's hallucinating and remembering rescuing his sister at the end of the war. She's in a tower, guarded by Kingsguard, on a "bed of blood". She makes Ned promise her...something, which is generally inferred to mean she died during childbirth and makes Ned promise to take care of her baby and lie about where it came from (since Robert would've had any Targaryen child killed, especially one that caused the death of the woman he loved).
It's not nearly as strongly hinted on the show as people tend to claim it is - if you weren't familiar with all the book speculation it's hard, but not impossible to draw that conclusion. But it makes a ton of sense story-wise, and fits with Ned's character - he loved his sister so much he was willing to be dishonored by "his b astard" to keep his word and protect her only child.
I don't think they ever say it, but they frequently point out that Ned was too moral to cheat on his wifey. They also invest a lot of time this season pointing out that rhaeger was a beloved prince who gave out roses and sang sweet songs. The official story in the world is that he raped Ned's sister lyanna, but they drop elephant sized hints that they were probably just in love with each other and once she got pregnant they put her into hiding.I've never read the books but I could have sworn there was some inference early on in the show that Jon Snow wasn't Ned's son but adopted by Ned to save face for someone close to him. Did that happen or did I imagine the inference from somewhere?Ok I'll admit my stupidity because I am intrigued. I've watched the whole show. How is it we think jons parents aren't edd stark and an unknown woman. I get that he seems like superman but what leads people to think he's the son of a targaryean instead? I'm not following that. Please enlighten me. ????
There have been some strong hints dropped that Rhaegar Targaryen (the Mad King's oldest son) wasn't a horrible person who kidnapped and raped Ned Stark's sister (the official story), but was a good guy who fell in love with Lyanna, and they eloped together.
Where people connect the dots to Jon Snow mainly comes from a scene in the books - after Ned gets speared in the knee, he's hallucinating and remembering rescuing his sister at the end of the war. She's in a tower, guarded by Kingsguard, on a "bed of blood". She makes Ned promise her...something, which is generally inferred to mean she died during childbirth and makes Ned promise to take care of her baby and lie about where it came from (since Robert would've had any Targaryen child killed, especially one that caused the death of the woman he loved).
It's not nearly as strongly hinted on the show as people tend to claim it is - if you weren't familiar with all the book speculation it's hard, but not impossible to draw that conclusion. But it makes a ton of sense story-wise, and fits with Ned's character - he loved his sister so much he was willing to be dishonored by "his b astard" to keep his word and protect her only child.
Quotehttp://thornography.weei.com/sports/boston/2015/06/01/i-want-300-pound-pitcher-ben-ancheff-on-red-sox/Click for a picture of Samwell Tarley in a baseball uniform :P
There are other hints as well. Like Arya resembles her aunt a great deal and Jon and Arya look alike. Now granted that could just be because they have the same father, or if you are inclined to believe the Rhaegar/Lyanna story it fits in with that i.e. Arya looks like her Aunt and Jon looks like his mom.I don't think they ever say it, but they frequently point out that Ned was too moral to cheat on his wifey. They also invest a lot of time this season pointing out that rhaeger was a beloved prince who gave out roses and sang sweet songs. The official story in the world is that he raped Ned's sister lyanna, but they drop elephant sized hints that they were probably just in love with each other and once she got pregnant they put her into hiding.I've never read the books but I could have sworn there was some inference early on in the show that Jon Snow wasn't Ned's son but adopted by Ned to save face for someone close to him. Did that happen or did I imagine the inference from somewhere?Ok I'll admit my stupidity because I am intrigued. I've watched the whole show. How is it we think jons parents aren't edd stark and an unknown woman. I get that he seems like superman but what leads people to think he's the son of a targaryean instead? I'm not following that. Please enlighten me. ????
There have been some strong hints dropped that Rhaegar Targaryen (the Mad King's oldest son) wasn't a horrible person who kidnapped and raped Ned Stark's sister (the official story), but was a good guy who fell in love with Lyanna, and they eloped together.
Where people connect the dots to Jon Snow mainly comes from a scene in the books - after Ned gets speared in the knee, he's hallucinating and remembering rescuing his sister at the end of the war. She's in a tower, guarded by Kingsguard, on a "bed of blood". She makes Ned promise her...something, which is generally inferred to mean she died during childbirth and makes Ned promise to take care of her baby and lie about where it came from (since Robert would've had any Targaryen child killed, especially one that caused the death of the woman he loved).
It's not nearly as strongly hinted on the show as people tend to claim it is - if you weren't familiar with all the book speculation it's hard, but not impossible to draw that conclusion. But it makes a ton of sense story-wise, and fits with Ned's character - he loved his sister so much he was willing to be dishonored by "his b astard" to keep his word and protect her only child.
I'm not too in tune with the marriage laws in game of thrones. Can a king/prince take multiple wives? Could the two have been married in secrecy ? Just curious if there's a chance that Jon isn't even a bas tard. Not that it matters.
They definitely took some shortcuts from the book with Tyrion's journey to Daenarys. I was really looking forward to him being a clown.
hysterical -- TPQuotehttp://thornography.weei.com/sports/boston/2015/06/01/i-want-300-pound-pitcher-ben-ancheff-on-red-sox/Click for a picture of Samwell Tarley in a baseball uniform :P
On a similar note, I noticed this during the playoffs and thought it was funny, so here ya go:
(http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--7q03aFiX--/1983fp70pk4prjpg.jpg)
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(http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/thumb/a/a2/Gilly.jpg/300px-Gilly.jpg)
=
(http://www.csnchicago.com/sites/csnchicago/files/niko.jpg)
Have another TP for this genius.Quotehttp://thornography.weei.com/sports/boston/2015/06/01/i-want-300-pound-pitcher-ben-ancheff-on-red-sox/Click for a picture of Samwell Tarley in a baseball uniform :P
On a similar note, I noticed this during the playoffs and thought it was funny, so here ya go:
(http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--7q03aFiX--/1983fp70pk4prjpg.jpg)
+
(http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/thumb/a/a2/Gilly.jpg/300px-Gilly.jpg)
=
(http://www.csnchicago.com/sites/csnchicago/files/niko.jpg)
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/31/game-thrones-lady-stoneheart (http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/31/game-thrones-lady-stoneheart)
5 characters Martin wishes were in the show.
Strong Belwas
Jeyne Poole
Willas Tyrell
Garlan Tyrell
Lady Stoneheart
I also find his take on the lord of the rings fascinating.
I also find his take on the lord of the rings fascinating.I was a boy of ten when I first read Lord of Rings and I too, was shocked when Gandalf died. It crushed me, years later, I was floored when Ned Stark died. I never the made the connection until that post, thanks.
Quotehttp://thornography.weei.com/sports/boston/2015/06/01/i-want-300-pound-pitcher-ben-ancheff-on-red-sox/Click for a picture of Samwell Tarley in a baseball uniform :P
On a similar note, I noticed this during the playoffs and thought it was funny, so here ya go:
(http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--7q03aFiX--/1983fp70pk4prjpg.jpg)
+
(http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/thumb/a/a2/Gilly.jpg/300px-Gilly.jpg)
=
(http://www.csnchicago.com/sites/csnchicago/files/niko.jpg)
Tonight was the first time I thought the show did a scene better than the book. The fighting pit scene was a lot better on the show.Scene wise yes. Story overall has been much more intensified in the show. They have fixed a few of Martin's rambling characters and chapters that did little for the main story. These guys producing are excellent at taking the best of a vision and adding to it. Props to Martin for helping in changing the story by giving up the end very early to these guys. They have be able to mold things for the more impatient TV audience.
I hope the season finale doesn't give away too much of what is happening in the next book.
Props to Martin for helping in changing the story by giving up the end very early to these guys. They have be able to mold things for the more impatient TV audience.
Kinda hope the child sacrifice was a fake out and "the lord of light" spares her and cures her greyscale... Cuz I dunno man, that was pretty rough and I read that nothing like that even happens in the books. Strange so many book readers seem to love Stannis. I was starting to sort of see why they liked him up until tonight's episode.So in the book 5 you get a chapter from someone in Stannis camp talking about them getting stuck in the snow. You also get a chapter from Jon's point of view where Ramsay taunts him saying that there was nothing he could do to help Stannis' army.
Kinda hope the child sacrifice was a fake out and "the lord of light" spares her and cures her greyscale... Cuz I dunno man, that was pretty rough and I read that nothing like that even happens in the books. Strange so many book readers seem to love Stannis. I was starting to sort of see why they liked him up until tonight's episode.So in the book 5 you get a chapter from someone in Stannis camp talking about them getting stuck in the snow. You also get a chapter from Jon's point of view where Ramsay taunts him saying that there was nothing he could do to help Stannis' army.
So it was either going to happen in the book, or be mentioned but not given a point of view chapter about it. I'm a book reader and I'm not really a Stannis fan in the book he seems too rigid, he sticks to his guns even if he is doing the wrong thing.
I understood his reasoning and that is why it didn't surprise me. On the other hand burning a little girl alive isn't the greatest decision haha.Kinda hope the child sacrifice was a fake out and "the lord of light" spares her and cures her greyscale... Cuz I dunno man, that was pretty rough and I read that nothing like that even happens in the books. Strange so many book readers seem to love Stannis. I was starting to sort of see why they liked him up until tonight's episode.So in the book 5 you get a chapter from someone in Stannis camp talking about them getting stuck in the snow. You also get a chapter from Jon's point of view where Ramsay taunts him saying that there was nothing he could do to help Stannis' army.
So it was either going to happen in the book, or be mentioned but not given a point of view chapter about it. I'm a book reader and I'm not really a Stannis fan in the book he seems too rigid, he sticks to his guns even if he is doing the wrong thing.
They didn't even give him a choice, though. They set it up in a way so that he had to set his daughter on fire.
1.) He's seen magic work on numerous occasions and has no reason to doubt it (smoke attack, future telling, etc)
2.) He said no to setting his daughter on fire when he had other options and wouldn't allow it to be discussed
3.) Then he got stranded with no food or siege weapons and a bunch of hungry men
4.) The people holding the city he wants to attack are awful
5.) If he doesn't go now, he will starve/freeze to death along with his army
So his options are either: he and his army all starve to death and the Boltons keep committing atrocities or he sets his daughter on fire and hope that whatever magic trick happens as a result is enough. I don't know how he could pick otherwise
seriously hoping that sacrificing her comes back to screw him badly very shortlyI understood his reasoning and that is why it didn't surprise me. On the other hand burning a little girl alive isn't the greatest decision haha.Kinda hope the child sacrifice was a fake out and "the lord of light" spares her and cures her greyscale... Cuz I dunno man, that was pretty rough and I read that nothing like that even happens in the books. Strange so many book readers seem to love Stannis. I was starting to sort of see why they liked him up until tonight's episode.So in the book 5 you get a chapter from someone in Stannis camp talking about them getting stuck in the snow. You also get a chapter from Jon's point of view where Ramsay taunts him saying that there was nothing he could do to help Stannis' army.
So it was either going to happen in the book, or be mentioned but not given a point of view chapter about it. I'm a book reader and I'm not really a Stannis fan in the book he seems too rigid, he sticks to his guns even if he is doing the wrong thing.
They didn't even give him a choice, though. They set it up in a way so that he had to set his daughter on fire.
1.) He's seen magic work on numerous occasions and has no reason to doubt it (smoke attack, future telling, etc)
2.) He said no to setting his daughter on fire when he had other options and wouldn't allow it to be discussed
3.) Then he got stranded with no food or siege weapons and a bunch of hungry men
4.) The people holding the city he wants to attack are awful
5.) If he doesn't go now, he will starve/freeze to death along with his army
So his options are either: he and his army all starve to death and the Boltons keep committing atrocities or he sets his daughter on fire and hope that whatever magic trick happens as a result is enough. I don't know how he could pick otherwise
It has been awhile since I read the book, but I believe Shireen stayed at Castle Black with her mother and the Red Woman.Kinda hope the child sacrifice was a fake out and "the lord of light" spares her and cures her greyscale... Cuz I dunno man, that was pretty rough and I read that nothing like that even happens in the books. Strange so many book readers seem to love Stannis. I was starting to sort of see why they liked him up until tonight's episode.So in the book 5 you get a chapter from someone in Stannis camp talking about them getting stuck in the snow. You also get a chapter from Jon's point of view where Ramsay taunts him saying that there was nothing he could do to help Stannis' army.
So it was either going to happen in the book, or be mentioned but not given a point of view chapter about it. I'm a book reader and I'm not really a Stannis fan in the book he seems too rigid, he sticks to his guns even if he is doing the wrong thing.
Kinda hope the child sacrifice was a fake out and "the lord of light" spares her and cures her greyscale... Cuz I dunno man, that was pretty rough and I read that nothing like that even happens in the books. Strange so many book readers seem to love Stannis. I was starting to sort of see why they liked him up until tonight's episode.So in the book 5 you get a chapter from someone in Stannis camp talking about them getting stuck in the snow. You also get a chapter from Jon's point of view where Ramsay taunts him saying that there was nothing he could do to help Stannis' army.
So it was either going to happen in the book, or be mentioned but not given a point of view chapter about it. I'm a book reader and I'm not really a Stannis fan in the book he seems too rigid, he sticks to his guns even if he is doing the wrong thing.
They didn't even give him a choice, though. They set it up in a way so that he had to set his daughter on fire.
1.) He's seen magic work on numerous occasions and has no reason to doubt it (smoke attack, future telling, etc)
2.) He said no to setting his daughter on fire when he had other options and wouldn't allow it to be discussed
3.) Then he got stranded with no food or siege weapons and a bunch of hungry men
4.) The people holding the city he wants to attack are awful
5.) If he doesn't go now, he will starve/freeze to death along with his army
So his options are either: he and his army all starve to death and the Boltons keep committing atrocities or he sets his daughter on fire and hope that whatever magic trick happens as a result is enough. I don't know how he could pick otherwise
seriously hoping that sacrificing her comes back to screw him badly very shortly
What would you have him do?
That was a turning point for Stannis. He has moved from a principled guy under the influence of a crazy witch to a pretty bad guy willing to do the most horrible deeds to obtain power.I understood his reasoning and that is why it didn't surprise me. On the other hand burning a little girl alive isn't the greatest decision haha.Kinda hope the child sacrifice was a fake out and "the lord of light" spares her and cures her greyscale... Cuz I dunno man, that was pretty rough and I read that nothing like that even happens in the books. Strange so many book readers seem to love Stannis. I was starting to sort of see why they liked him up until tonight's episode.So in the book 5 you get a chapter from someone in Stannis camp talking about them getting stuck in the snow. You also get a chapter from Jon's point of view where Ramsay taunts him saying that there was nothing he could do to help Stannis' army.
So it was either going to happen in the book, or be mentioned but not given a point of view chapter about it. I'm a book reader and I'm not really a Stannis fan in the book he seems too rigid, he sticks to his guns even if he is doing the wrong thing.
They didn't even give him a choice, though. They set it up in a way so that he had to set his daughter on fire.
1.) He's seen magic work on numerous occasions and has no reason to doubt it (smoke attack, future telling, etc)
2.) He said no to setting his daughter on fire when he had other options and wouldn't allow it to be discussed
3.) Then he got stranded with no food or siege weapons and a bunch of hungry men
4.) The people holding the city he wants to attack are awful
5.) If he doesn't go now, he will starve/freeze to death along with his army
So his options are either: he and his army all starve to death and the Boltons keep committing atrocities or he sets his daughter on fire and hope that whatever magic trick happens as a result is enough. I don't know how he could pick otherwise
Several of the cast members have said that episode 10 contains the biggest moment of the series so far, even bigger than the red and purple weddings. I can't wait to see what it is, as long as it doesn't involve Jon, Dany, Jorah or Tyrion dying! :(
Several of the cast members have said that episode 10 contains the biggest moment of the series so far, even bigger than the red and purple weddings. I can't wait to see what it is, as long as it doesn't involve Jon, Dany, Jorah or Tyrion dying! :(
It'll end on a cliffhanger with Jon getting stabbed by Ollie.
Word is they kept Bran's story out because his story involves spoilers for show and books. It's similar to Selmy, in books they get away with hiding his identity but on show it wouldn't work so he never hides who he is. My guess is since everyone is expecting deaths I think we see multiple resurrections that are past due and will excite.Several of the cast members have said that episode 10 contains the biggest moment of the series so far, even bigger than the red and purple weddings. I can't wait to see what it is, as long as it doesn't involve Jon, Dany, Jorah or Tyrion dying! :(
It'll end on a cliffhanger with Jon getting stabbed by Ollie.
Uggghhh, I know. I just stumbled onto some spoilers, and the Night's Watch mutiny was one of them. I also found some speculative scenarios on Vanity Fair regarding possibly bringing Jon back (if he is in fact dead) by either Lady Melissandre or the freaking Night's King.
So after this episode the tv series will be caught up with the books' timeline, correct? I believe we still have Bran's storyline from the books yet to get to, but that runs concurrently with everything else right?
Based on what I've seen in the show, Dany would make for a pretty terrible Queen.
What would you have him do?
Say, "Hey, you know, if fate requires me to burn my only daughter at the stake in order to not freeze to death in the snow with my army and go down in history as a failed would-be-king, I think I'll just freeze. It's just not worth it. There are some things a man simply must not do."
--------
Looking to the structure of the episode, I'd say the Danaerys storyline, which picks up directly after Shireen's death, is a subtle commentary on the likely outcome of Stannis's decision.
Like Stannis, Dany was put in a tough position, where she had to go against her principles in order to save herself from a quagmire of her own making. She caved on the fighting pits, and what did it get her? This close to getting murdered by a mob of dudes in creepy bronze masks.
The dragon's fire, burning the masked attackers alive, was obviously supposed to make you think of Shireen. Dany's salvation also comes in the form of a beast that burns people alive. Unlike Mr. Baratheon's savior, Dany's is able to fly her away to safety. But at what cost? All of her closest allies are left behind in the stadium with plenty of attackers still alive, and it's not like any of the problems in Mereen have been solved.
They can't kill Jon off... the entire show revolves around his story arc. EVERYONE else is secondary, imo. A lot of razzle dazzle to throw us off a Luke Skywalker-esque heroes journey. Maybe they'll fake it, but his death is basically the only death on the show that would actually shock me.Several of the cast members have said that episode 10 contains the biggest moment of the series so far, even bigger than the red and purple weddings. I can't wait to see what it is, as long as it doesn't involve Jon, Dany, Jorah or Tyrion dying! :(
It'll end on a cliffhanger with Jon getting stabbed by Ollie.
Uggghhh, I know. I just stumbled onto some spoilers, and the Night's Watch mutiny was one of them. I also found some speculative scenarios on Vanity Fair regarding possibly bringing Jon back (if he is in fact dead) by either Lady Melissandre or the freaking Night's King.
So after this episode the tv series will be caught up with the books' timeline, correct? I believe we still have Bran's storyline from the books yet to get to, but that runs concurrently with everything else right?
They can't kill Jon off... the entire show revolves around his story arc. EVERYONE else is secondary, imo. A lot of razzle dazzle to throw us off a Luke Skywalker-esque heroes journey. Maybe they'll fake it, but his death is basically the only death on the show that would actually shock me.Several of the cast members have said that episode 10 contains the biggest moment of the series so far, even bigger than the red and purple weddings. I can't wait to see what it is, as long as it doesn't involve Jon, Dany, Jorah or Tyrion dying! :(
It'll end on a cliffhanger with Jon getting stabbed by Ollie.
Uggghhh, I know. I just stumbled onto some spoilers, and the Night's Watch mutiny was one of them. I also found some speculative scenarios on Vanity Fair regarding possibly bringing Jon back (if he is in fact dead) by either Lady Melissandre or the freaking Night's King.
So after this episode the tv series will be caught up with the books' timeline, correct? I believe we still have Bran's storyline from the books yet to get to, but that runs concurrently with everything else right?
As soon as the ice zombie battle episode ended, I had the following thought: They are clearly alluding to some kind of shocking moment where a bunch of the Night's watch turn on Jon... but it's stupid. It's just completely stupid. Every survivor of that ice zombie invasion should have walked through that wall ranting and raving, "LISTEN GUYS... SERIOUSLY... TRUCE... WE JUST HAD A FREAKIN MASSACRE BY A HOARD OF ICE ZOMBIES. YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND!!!... IT'S A FREAKING BLOODBATH OUT THERE!!... Look, we were skeptical too!... Seriously, half of us were ready to stay when Jon showed up... We didn't trust him. But then... BAM... crazy timing, we get attacked by a massive unlimited army of undead. We're all probably going to die. Ask any one of us... you have thousands of witnesses here. Ask the members of the nights watch who came along... we are in this together!!!" ...
But that's not going to happen... and someone will inevitably try to kill Jon... and that defies logic. Part of the problem, apparently, is that the huge battle scene wasn't in the books. But it's in the show... and Jon was there... and at this point everyone should be on board with the plan... tons of witnesses are there to back up what just went down. I'm already frustrated about a scene that may or may not even happen.
Yeah, I don't think he's dead either, but it also wouldn't surprise me to see him die for a bit then be raised back to life somehow. Speaking of that, episode 10 has the title of "Mother's Mercy" and apparently that is one of Lady Stoneheart's aliases. :o
I know it's just a show and it is GoT afterall where brutality is to be expected but child sacrifice, particularly burning at the stake, shouldn't have been considered an option. had a feeling it was coming though (something nasty anyway) when Shireen said she was willing to help as a princess and his daughter.seriously hoping that sacrificing her comes back to screw him badly very shortly
What would you have him do? Even Davos said they didn't have supplies to make it back to the Wall. They just lost all their food so they can't siege Winterfell and they can't attack Winterfell because all their siege craft was burned up. His options were literally letting his daughter and all their freeze to death along with his entire army or sacrificing his daughter to give his army a fighting chance. The only other option was suicide and not just for him personally, but for everybody.
Aegon doesn't do much in Book 5. They can easily save his story line for later and not miss anything.They can't kill Jon off... the entire show revolves around his story arc. EVERYONE else is secondary, imo. A lot of razzle dazzle to throw us off a Luke Skywalker-esque heroes journey. Maybe they'll fake it, but his death is basically the only death on the show that would actually shock me.Several of the cast members have said that episode 10 contains the biggest moment of the series so far, even bigger than the red and purple weddings. I can't wait to see what it is, as long as it doesn't involve Jon, Dany, Jorah or Tyrion dying! :(
It'll end on a cliffhanger with Jon getting stabbed by Ollie.
Uggghhh, I know. I just stumbled onto some spoilers, and the Night's Watch mutiny was one of them. I also found some speculative scenarios on Vanity Fair regarding possibly bringing Jon back (if he is in fact dead) by either Lady Melissandre or the freaking Night's King.
So after this episode the tv series will be caught up with the books' timeline, correct? I believe we still have Bran's storyline from the books yet to get to, but that runs concurrently with everything else right?
As soon as the ice zombie battle episode ended, I had the following thought: They are clearly alluding to some kind of shocking moment where a bunch of the Night's watch turn on Jon... but it's stupid. It's just completely stupid. Every survivor of that ice zombie invasion should have walked through that wall ranting and raving, "LISTEN GUYS... SERIOUSLY... TRUCE... WE JUST HAD A FREAKIN MASSACRE BY A HOARD OF ICE ZOMBIES. YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND!!!... IT'S A FREAKING BLOODBATH OUT THERE!!... Look, we were skeptical too!... Seriously, half of us were ready to stay when Jon showed up... We didn't trust him. But then... BAM... crazy timing, we get attacked by a massive unlimited army of undead. We're all probably going to die. Ask any one of us... you have thousands of witnesses here. Ask the members of the nights watch who came along... we are in this together!!!" ...
But that's not going to happen... and someone will inevitably try to kill Jon... and that defies logic. Part of the problem, apparently, is that the huge battle scene wasn't in the books. But it's in the show... and Jon was there... and at this point everyone should be on board with the plan... tons of witnesses are there to back up what just went down. I'm already frustrated about a scene that may or may not even happen.
Yeah, I don't think he's dead either, but it also wouldn't surprise me to see him die for a bit then be raised back to life somehow. Speaking of that, episode 10 has the title of "Mother's Mercy" and apparently that is one of Lady Stoneheart's aliases. :o
As I've said before, I've only read the first book of the series. But tonight I broke down and read the plot summaries of the rest of the books, which were fairly detailed by some hardcore fan, and I'm really surprised at how different the show is than the books. A ton was left out, and it's interesting that some of the main characters' storylines have been changed so much. Btw, why is there not an Aegon/Young Griff storyline in the show if he's really alive? That seems to be a major factor in the plot.
have to agree on that. I'm surprised there wasn't more made of what happened in the Wildling camp with a sense of urgency regarding the manning of the wall/joining forces and the impending doom approachingThey can't kill Jon off... the entire show revolves around his story arc. EVERYONE else is secondary, imo. A lot of razzle dazzle to throw us off a Luke Skywalker-esque heroes journey. Maybe they'll fake it, but his death is basically the only death on the show that would actually shock me.Several of the cast members have said that episode 10 contains the biggest moment of the series so far, even bigger than the red and purple weddings. I can't wait to see what it is, as long as it doesn't involve Jon, Dany, Jorah or Tyrion dying! :(
It'll end on a cliffhanger with Jon getting stabbed by Ollie.
Uggghhh, I know. I just stumbled onto some spoilers, and the Night's Watch mutiny was one of them. I also found some speculative scenarios on Vanity Fair regarding possibly bringing Jon back (if he is in fact dead) by either Lady Melissandre or the freaking Night's King.
So after this episode the tv series will be caught up with the books' timeline, correct? I believe we still have Bran's storyline from the books yet to get to, but that runs concurrently with everything else right?
As soon as the ice zombie battle episode ended, I had the following thought: They are clearly alluding to some kind of shocking moment where a bunch of the Night's watch turn on Jon... but it's stupid. It's just completely stupid. Every survivor of that ice zombie invasion should have walked through that wall ranting and raving, "LISTEN GUYS... SERIOUSLY... TRUCE... WE JUST HAD A FREAKIN MASSACRE BY A HOARD OF ICE ZOMBIES. YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND!!!... IT'S A FREAKING BLOODBATH OUT THERE!!... Look, we were skeptical too!... Seriously, half of us were ready to stay when Jon showed up... We didn't trust him. But then... BAM... crazy timing, we get attacked by a massive unlimited army of undead. We're all probably going to die. Ask any one of us... you have thousands of witnesses here. Ask the members of the nights watch who came along... we are in this together!!!" ...
But that's not going to happen... and someone will inevitably try to kill Jon... and that defies logic. Part of the problem, apparently, is that the huge battle scene wasn't in the books. But it's in the show... and Jon was there... and at this point everyone should be on board with the plan... tons of witnesses are there to back up what just went down. I'm already frustrated about a scene that may or may not even happen.
Based on what I've seen in the show, Dany would make for a pretty terrible Queen.
Several of the cast members have said that episode 10 contains the biggest moment of the series so far, even bigger than the red and purple weddings. I can't wait to see what it is, as long as it doesn't involve Jon, Dany, Jorah or Tyrion dying! :(
It'll end on a cliffhanger with Jon getting stabbed by Ollie.
Uggghhh, I know. I just stumbled onto some spoilers, and the Night's Watch mutiny was one of them. I also found some speculative scenarios on Vanity Fair regarding possibly bringing Jon back (if he is in fact dead) by either Lady Melissandre or the freaking Night's King.
So after this episode the tv series will be caught up with the books' timeline, correct? I believe we still have Bran's storyline from the books yet to get to, but that runs concurrently with everything else right?
Btw, why is there not an Aegon/Young Griff storyline in the show if he's really alive? That seems to be a major factor in the plot.
I always assumed Tristane was taking Quenten's role and might eventually be the one seeking Dany's hand in marriage, but I suppose your theory makes just as much sense.Btw, why is there not an Aegon/Young Griff storyline in the show if he's really alive? That seems to be a major factor in the plot.
I have a sneaking suspicion that they're having Trystane play that role. I thought there was a big hint when Doran said he needed to sit on the Small Council "if he's going to rule". Could refer to ruling Dorne, but I think Doran has something bigger in mind. Having Trystane be the "real"/possibly fake Aegon doesn't make a lot of sense, but would let the show runners cut a lot of corners without removing the plot point entirely, and book readers wouldn't see it coming like they would with a Griff character.
Next week I expect we'll find out what Doran's master plan is so there should be more clarity there. There's definitely more to what he's doing than meets the eye.
I disagree that Bran's storyline is boring. The kid is getting a dbz power up to be the three eyed Raven. Or maybe that is something boring as his powers are ridiculous. It does give too much hope to uniting the kingdom and beating the White Walkers.Several of the cast members have said that episode 10 contains the biggest moment of the series so far, even bigger than the red and purple weddings. I can't wait to see what it is, as long as it doesn't involve Jon, Dany, Jorah or Tyrion dying! :(
It'll end on a cliffhanger with Jon getting stabbed by Ollie.
Uggghhh, I know. I just stumbled onto some spoilers, and the Night's Watch mutiny was one of them. I also found some speculative scenarios on Vanity Fair regarding possibly bringing Jon back (if he is in fact dead) by either Lady Melissandre or the freaking Night's King.
So after this episode the tv series will be caught up with the books' timeline, correct? I believe we still have Bran's storyline from the books yet to get to, but that runs concurrently with everything else right?
Many parts of the storyline have already moved beyond the books at this point. Bran's storyline is not one of them, but his storyline is also boring.
I always assumed Tristane was taking Quenten's role and might eventually be the one seeking Dany's hand in marriage, but I suppose your theory makes just as much sense.Btw, why is there not an Aegon/Young Griff storyline in the show if he's really alive? That seems to be a major factor in the plot.
I have a sneaking suspicion that they're having Trystane play that role. I thought there was a big hint when Doran said he needed to sit on the Small Council "if he's going to rule". Could refer to ruling Dorne, but I think Doran has something bigger in mind. Having Trystane be the "real"/possibly fake Aegon doesn't make a lot of sense, but would let the show runners cut a lot of corners without removing the plot point entirely, and book readers wouldn't see it coming like they would with a Griff character.
Next week I expect we'll find out what Doran's master plan is so there should be more clarity there. There's definitely more to what he's doing than meets the eye.
I'm guessing the finale will show that Doran's got some schemes going on. He's not entirely unlike his brother, he just uses different, more subtle means. He is the Martell version of Tywin.honestly, I'd be a little surprised if something happened on the way back. not enough suffering for Cerce. I could see some foreshadowing of something happening to her once she's back to the city next year after her boytoy is on the small council and Cerce thinks her daughter is now safe. something that can't be traced back to Doran
Probably will involve something happening to Myrcella on the way back to King's Landing.
I'm guessing the finale will show that Doran's got some schemes going on. He's not entirely unlike his brother, he just uses different, more subtle means. He is the Martell version of Tywin.
Probably will involve something happening to Myrcella on the way back to King's Landing.
He seems much more big-picture, which is why positioning someone to take the throne - or marry the person who does - seems like a more likely endgame to me.
This season has really picked up since episode 7. I like the books better still but some of the show changes have been better than the books while some I could've done without (pretty much ever Dornish scene so far)Every Dorne scene is just so unbelievably cringe worthy.
Either way the season finale should be the best of the series!
Prince Martell is much closer to Littlefinger than anyone else in the series. In the books he has schemes all over the place. What he doesn't want is a war he will lose, but is perfectly fine with war. He just wants to make sure he wins it with as little damage to his own people as possible.
Prince Martell is much closer to Littlefinger than anyone else in the series. In the books he has schemes all over the place. What he doesn't want is a war he will lose, but is perfectly fine with war. He just wants to make sure he wins it with as little damage to his own people as possible.
That's probably true. I just feel like the show set up this false ending to the Dorne story in Episode 9, with Doran apparently wanting peace with the Lannisters and no interest in revenge.
Based on how things have gotten reversed in the past on the show, I have a feeling episode 10 will involve some kind of turnaround, even if it's an indirect one that doesn't explicitly implicate the Martells.
I'm bracing myself for the big death at the end of book 5. Looks like it may very well happen, though would be stranger in the show based on some of the changes made.
https://www.facebook.com/ChrisSmoove/videos/vb.189559597743272/1054053454627211/?type=2&theaterLOL that is amazing
SPOILERS!
Awesome video tho
Prince Martell is much closer to Littlefinger than anyone else in the series. In the books he has schemes all over the place. What he doesn't want is a war he will lose, but is perfectly fine with war. He just wants to make sure he wins it with as little damage to his own people as possible.
That's probably true. I just feel like the show set up this false ending to the Dorne story in Episode 9, with Doran apparently wanting peace with the Lannisters and no interest in revenge.
Based on how things have gotten reversed in the past on the show, I have a feeling episode 10 will involve some kind of turnaround, even if it's an indirect one that doesn't explicitly implicate the Martells.
As shoddy as the Dorne stuff has been, there'd better be more to it than "errybody happy, let's go home now"!
...it sounds like you haven't read the books, so at the risk of minor/implied spoilers, it's very likely we will see something like that this week, probably mainly in the form of Doran explaining himself to Ellaria. Doran has definitely not forgotten or forgiven the Lannisters using the Mountain to kill his brother and sister; he's just a lot more cold-blooded about it than most of the people around him.I'm bracing myself for the big death at the end of book 5. Looks like it may very well happen, though would be stranger in the show based on some of the changes made.
Oh, that's definitely happening. They practically had a character wink to the audience about it a couple episodes back.
Nice take on Reddit: "The bonus here is that a Night's Watch vow is until death. He dies, gets resurrected, and is free from his vows - able to head off and kick ass, save family, conquer kingdoms, get married, and all that other stuff with a free conscience"
Also that entire scene was telegraphed for weeks... And after the scene with the white walkers, it defies logic. There were thousands of witnesses that jon snow made the right call there. They'd have to be entirely thick not to be on board with the "end of the world" narrative. Bad writing. Frustrating episode. 3 out of 10 stars.
Nice take on Reddit: "The bonus here is that a Night's Watch vow is until death. He dies, gets resurrected, and is free from his vows - able to head off and kick ass, save family, conquer kingdoms, get married, and all that other stuff with a free conscience"Yeah, maybe not.
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-dies-interview
ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: So why did you kill Jon Snow??
GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Oh, you think hes dead, do you
well, guessed wrong on that oneI'm guessing the finale will show that Doran's got some schemes going on. He's not entirely unlike his brother, he just uses different, more subtle means. He is the Martell version of Tywin.honestly, I'd be a little surprised if something happened on the way back. not enough suffering for Cerce. I could see some foreshadowing of something happening to her once she's back to the city next year after her boytoy is on the small council and Cerce thinks her daughter is now safe. something that can't be traced back to Doran
Probably will involve something happening to Myrcella on the way back to King's Landing.
Love it! TP(http://cdn.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/dad-im-glad-youre-not-stannis-baratheon-happy-fathers-day-14fe1.png)
What's up with the mountain? Is he like a zombie now or what?
Nice take on Reddit: "The bonus here is that a Night's Watch vow is until death. He dies, gets resurrected, and is free from his vows - able to head off and kick ass, save family, conquer kingdoms, get married, and all that other stuff with a free conscience"
Yeah, maybe not.
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-dies-interview
Don't think there is any way that Jon dies. Lady Melissandre most likely brings him back.
I honestly wish there was just the show instead of the books, or at least that the show followed the books exactly. It just seems strange to me to diverge this much from the books.
Also, what the crap happened to Reek and Sansa?!
QuoteWhat's up with the mountain? Is he like a zombie now or what?
he was the new Kingsguard, Ser Robert Strong that carried Cersei at the end.
This is where changing things for the show gets into a strange illogical point. Jon is obviously the big one, i.e. with knowing about Hardholmme it is a lot less logical for the brothers to act the way they did. Made a lot more sense in the book since Hardholmme never happened.I haven't read the books, but I agree with this 100%. It had all sorts of logic-defying problems. The last 3 out of 4 episodes were pretty poorly written.
Dany is fully healthy and yet can't hear an entire army of horsemen coming. I mean come on. In the books where she is sick and delirious it makes a lot more sense.
Apparently the Shireen death scene happens in book 6, yet it just felt strange. And why would the red woman do all that only to leave Stannis. In the books when they aren't with him it makes more sense (though the battle doesn't happen yet). And I really missed Mance being in Winterfell like he is in the books.
And it is weird not having the Greyjoy's around like they are in the books. I don't even think Theon's father has died on the show yet. Very strange.
Myrcella is very much alive in the books, so perhaps there is some antidote and she doesn't die, but that seems like an odd way for the story to go, especially since Jamie isn't with her.
Some things being changed on the show make a lot more sense (like I didn't mind Brienne getting redemption on Stannis), but most of the changes made seriously negatively affected the writing.
I think he will come back as Ghost, and then eventually inhabit a different body. So Kit Harrington might be done on the show but I think Jon Snow will eventually return.Nice take on Reddit: "The bonus here is that a Night's Watch vow is until death. He dies, gets resurrected, and is free from his vows - able to head off and kick ass, save family, conquer kingdoms, get married, and all that other stuff with a free conscience"
Yeah, maybe not.
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-dies-interview
This just reeks of Kit lying to keep the ratings up and viewers engaged lol
I think he will come back as Ghost, and then eventually inhabit a different body. So Kit Harrington might be done on the show but I think Jon Snow will eventually return.Nice take on Reddit: "The bonus here is that a Night's Watch vow is until death. He dies, gets resurrected, and is free from his vows - able to head off and kick ass, save family, conquer kingdoms, get married, and all that other stuff with a free conscience"
Yeah, maybe not.
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-dies-interview
This just reeks of Kit lying to keep the ratings up and viewers engaged lol
Yes he isI think he will come back as Ghost, and then eventually inhabit a different body. So Kit Harrington might be done on the show but I think Jon Snow will eventually return.Nice take on Reddit: "The bonus here is that a Night's Watch vow is until death. He dies, gets resurrected, and is free from his vows - able to head off and kick ass, save family, conquer kingdoms, get married, and all that other stuff with a free conscience"
Yeah, maybe not.
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-dies-interview
This just reeks of Kit lying to keep the ratings up and viewers engaged lol
How would he come back as Ghost? He wasn't a Warg was he?
Yes he isI think he will come back as Ghost, and then eventually inhabit a different body. So Kit Harrington might be done on the show but I think Jon Snow will eventually return.Nice take on Reddit: "The bonus here is that a Night's Watch vow is until death. He dies, gets resurrected, and is free from his vows - able to head off and kick ass, save family, conquer kingdoms, get married, and all that other stuff with a free conscience"
Yeah, maybe not.
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-dies-interview
This just reeks of Kit lying to keep the ratings up and viewers engaged lol
How would he come back as Ghost? He wasn't a Warg was he?
Yeah I thought Melisandre raising him from the dead was the most likely outcome, but then I remembered she wasn't at castle black in the books. That combined with the Kit Harrington saying he isn't coming back makes me think the most likely option is him turning into ghost.Yes he isI think he will come back as Ghost, and then eventually inhabit a different body. So Kit Harrington might be done on the show but I think Jon Snow will eventually return.Nice take on Reddit: "The bonus here is that a Night's Watch vow is until death. He dies, gets resurrected, and is free from his vows - able to head off and kick ass, save family, conquer kingdoms, get married, and all that other stuff with a free conscience"
Yeah, maybe not.
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-dies-interview
This just reeks of Kit lying to keep the ratings up and viewers engaged lol
How would he come back as Ghost? He wasn't a Warg was he?
Hmmm, well that definitely seems plausible then at least for the books, because I don't think the show ever portrayed him as a warg. And with Lady Melissandre coming back to the Wall when she didn't in the books, in addition to the lack of Lady Stoneheart, I'm guessing the show will have Melissandre raise him from the dead or something like that.
But let?s be honest. You don?t want to hear about any of that. You want to talk about Jon Snow, and I?ve made you wait long enough. So here you go: He?s not dead. There?s simply no way that he is, and I?ll enumerate all my reasons for saying so soon enough. But before I do, let me attempt the impossible and make a case for why it would be understandable if he were. To be clear, I didn?t say it would be OK. But if you squint, and then turn off your TV, and then walk around your block, and then break into your neighbor?s house and drink all of their gin until you pass out in one of their beds, it just might make a certain kind of sense. And here?s why:
All of that unaired history I talked about in the first paragraph, the stuff that fuels Book Reader Twitter and the outstanding columns of my colleague Jason Concepcion? From what I can tell, it?s basically the history of idiots. Sure, there are exceptions here and there ? good kings and nice maesters who really did their best before getting eaten by a dragon or decapitated by their nannies. But, by and large, the recorded history of Westeros seems to be a chronicle of unimaginable ****-ups, from Sea to Shivering Sea. (Remember the noble Dance of the Dragons Shireen was nattering on about last week? It was about social-climbing royal ****s attempting to hop onto the backs of 30-ton, fire-breathing killing machines. It worked out about as well as you?d imagine.)
What was instructive about Ned Stark in Season 1 was that his good intentions were swamped by his unconsidered actions. That?s the prism through which we need to examine Jon Snow. He was the rare player in the Game of Thrones paying attention to the forest ? so of course he got shivved in front of a tree. It was heartbreaking, yes. It was appalling. But it was all there, from his rough first arrival at Castle Black to his touching, on-the-nose-like-spectacles farewell with Sam. Jon was simply playing a different game than everyone else. And on Game of Thrones, as in real life, people don?t like freelancers. We admire people who stumble when following the rules far more than those who succeed by rewriting them.
But look: He?s not dead. Call me sensitive, call me emotional ? and you?d be right ? but I?m sure of it. Here?s why:
#1 People are resurrected all the time on Game of Thrones. Remember Beric Dondarrion back in Season 3? It even happened last night, though the Mountain wasn?t really looking all that well behind his mask. Melisandre didn?t say much when she arrived at Castle Black ? being ignored by your vengeful fire god will do that to a lady ? but she must be there for something. And wasn?t she awfully interested in Jon?s blood once before?
#2 Speaking of that blood: Boy, did David Nutter?s camera zoom in on it in the season?s last shot! People wondering how I called Jon?s fate in last week?s recap should know that I did it only by reading the giant, honking signs the show was throwing at me with Olly these past few weeks. Game of Thrones is many things. Subtle is not often among them.
#3 The Night?s King epic ?Come at me, bro? from a few weeks ago needs to be answered, no? But even more than that dangling plot thread, there is simply too much intranarrative piping dependent on Jon?s presence to believe in his sudden demise. The whole fan-hypnotizing theory of ?R + L = J? (Google it, you?re safe) is no longer just a book thing ? rewatch the Littlefinger-Sansa scene in the crypts of Winterfell for proof. If Benioff and Weiss don?t care about that theory, why introduce it at all? And why mention that as the deal-sealing point that earned them the right to make this show when they solved it for Martin, as explained in my interview with them here? There are pages and pages of backstory that the showrunners have gleefully shorn. We are at the point where if it?s on the screen, it?s important, particularly for the eventual endgame.
Yes, Kit Harington is out there saying all the right things, but what do you expect? He?s a professional with a new career as a comedian to promote. Besides, loose lips and the reliable ravens of IMDb will reveal if he?s back in Iceland for Season 6 soon enough. The most important argument for Jon?s survival is actually less dependent on actor availability than it is on TV convention. Because let?s be real: There are likely only two seasons of Game of Thrones left. That?s 20 hours to remake a world, fight off a frozen death army, and maybe, just maybe, stage a Stark family reunion. (Don?t worry, party planners: You can book a small room.) And to do all that, we?re going to need heroes ? or, in Martin?s parlance, ?POV characters? ? and there simply isn?t enough time to call for reinforcements. Let?s heed the lesson that Stannis learned the hard way just last night: If you don?t have the horses, you can?t win the war. Daenerys can fly the dragons and Tyrion can crack wise and advise her, but someone?s gotta swing that great big sword, you know? And, real talk, it ain?t gonna be Rickon.
Does this weird outpouring of optimism contradict the central tenet of Thrones ? that the bad thing will always happen and, if it doesn?t, something worse likely will? Not necessarily. Getting stabbed to death by your brothers isn?t awesome, even if magic can somehow undo it. And, lest we forget, some truly awful things happened last night separate and apart from Jon. (Jaime?s time as an out-and-proud father was shorter than a shot clock.) I think it?s worth remembering that Game of Thrones succeeds as much for the way it celebrates genre tropes as the way it gleefully murders them. Giving a beloved hero a fake or temporary death may not be Sophocles, but it sure as hell is Spock.
More important than that, it sure as hell is TV. There?s nothing more familiar to contemporary viewers than a stunning cliffhanger at the end of a season, and this was a doozy. So much of this year was devoted to debates about the myriad things that happen offscreen on Game of Thrones, from chapters left out to sensibilities offended. Lost in all of this was the fact that when everything clicks, there?s simply nothing on the small screen as confoundingly, thrillingly big as Thrones. From Stannis and Shireen by the fireplace (I know, I know) to the slaughter at Hardhome, only Thrones can blow our minds and our hearts with such ridiculous consistency. In a perverse way, saving Jon at this point, after everything we just saw, is as radical a move as offing Ned was back in 2011. It?s precisely when we?ve been conditioned to zig that the show ought to zag. A brave TV show might cut off its prettiest nose to spite its face. But a smart and good one ? which Thrones has been more often than not, even in the bumpy second half of Season 5 ? would know better. A happy ending shouldn?t be expected. But a satisfying one is a different thing altogether. That?s why I am confident in saying that Jon, like my interest in Game of Thrones, will live to see another day.
And if I?m wrong, well, then you can be sure that I?ll be taking a long, public walk with the entirety of Twitter following behind me, fav-ing ?SHAME! SHAME!? each and every step of the way. Let me confess to you now: It?s a bet I?m willing to take. See you next spring.
Busy morphing into a tree.Don't think there is any way that Jon dies. Lady Melissandre most likely brings him back.
I honestly wish there was just the show instead of the books, or at least that the show followed the books exactly. It just seems strange to me to diverge this much from the books.
Also, what the crap happened to Reek and Sansa?!
Where is Bran?
Busy morphing into a tree.Don't think there is any way that Jon dies. Lady Melissandre most likely brings him back.
I honestly wish there was just the show instead of the books, or at least that the show followed the books exactly. It just seems strange to me to diverge this much from the books.
Also, what the crap happened to Reek and Sansa?!
Where is Bran?
By the way, Podrick is now officially next in line for the throne, and the heir apparent to House Baratheon, no?
I can't really see Jon coming back. I feel like George RR Martin got bored with the Stannis/Jon Snow plotline and just ended it. Maybe Stannis doesn't die, but GRRM needs room for Littlefinger and the Knights of the Vale to come through and having Snow and a bunch of random Wildlings is going to muddy everything up. I'm pretty sure that the reason that Stannis had all his troops desert him was just because it was an easy plot device to have him lose that battle and get him out of the way.Jon ties most of the characters together only little finger has as many ties. The selfless ignorant hero and master mind villain who exploits. They will likely both survive the story. It's Martin's roots to want conflicted enemies. I'm sure John isn't done he is the only one fighting the real fight against the White Walkers. Who else continues that fight? Rest of the world is wrapped up in drama by the time they settle things the wall will fall and it's not game of thrones but game over.
I can't really see Jon coming back. I feel like George RR Martin got bored with the Stannis/Jon Snow plotline and just ended it. Maybe Stannis doesn't die, but GRRM needs room for Littlefinger and the Knights of the Vale to come through and having Snow and a bunch of random Wildlings is going to muddy everything up. I'm pretty sure that the reason that Stannis had all his troops desert him was just because it was an easy plot device to have him lose that battle and get him out of the way.Is that Martin or Weiss and HBO, though? Not sure what's really in the books, as I haven't read them.
Yeah I realize that part but his face is all blue and he seemed like he was hypnotized or something.
There is no way Jon is dead or at least dead for good.
The actor Kit Harington is insisting he's done and has apparently already cut his contractually mandated long hair.
Having now watched the season, I have no idea why they put Sansa in Winterfell to marry Ramsey if she wasn't going to get revenge on him and his father. It makes absolutely no sense. She should be in the Vale with Littlefinger like she is in the books if she wasn't going to get her revenge. It is just really strange to change her storyline and then not have her get revenge. Makes no sense.I think it's because they wanted to give Theon a chance to redeem himself. In the books Jayne Poole posing as Arya is the one that marries Ramsey. However, she doesn't exist on the shows so for Theon to get redemption he had to escape with a character that people care about on the show.
Yeah but the only way I see Sansa's two storyline converging now is if she dies. I mean how is she going to go from marrying Harold in the books to ending up somewhere way far north with Theon (maybe at the Wall). I mean the only thing I can logically think of is that she dies or is completely and utterly meaningless to the overall story arc (and I don't think it is the latter and thus must be the former).Having now watched the season, I have no idea why they put Sansa in Winterfell to marry Ramsey if she wasn't going to get revenge on him and his father. It makes absolutely no sense. She should be in the Vale with Littlefinger like she is in the books if she wasn't going to get her revenge. It is just really strange to change her storyline and then not have her get revenge. Makes no sense.I think it's because they wanted to give Theon a chance to redeem himself. In the books Jayne Poole posing as Arya is the one that marries Ramsey. However, she doesn't exist on the shows so for Theon to get redemption he had to escape with a character that people care about on the show.
I agree that they shouldn't have done it this way, but I see the reasoning.
If Jon is dead... it makes the red woman entirely pointless as a character... and nobody would meet that with praise for Martin's arbitrary random writing style... they would meet it with ridicule.
Lady Melisandre is at Castle Black in the books. She, Shireen, and the Queen never went with Stannis and stayed behind (Melisandre stays because her power is much greater at the wall than anywhere else she has been). She has a number of visions while there. The big one of course is she asks to see Azor Ahai and hopes to see Stannis, but only sees Jon surrounded by skulls with his face changing from his to a wolf and it is during that vision when it is Jon's face that she sees him surrounded by daggars in the dark. She warns Jon of this and she also advises him to keep Ghost close by, but he doesn't heed that warning and when he is set to ride south breaking his vows his men stab him.Yeah I thought Melisandre raising him from the dead was the most likely outcome, but then I remembered she wasn't at castle black in the books. That combined with the Kit Harrington saying he isn't coming back makes me think the most likely option is him turning into ghost.Yes he isI think he will come back as Ghost, and then eventually inhabit a different body. So Kit Harrington might be done on the show but I think Jon Snow will eventually return.Nice take on Reddit: "The bonus here is that a Night's Watch vow is until death. He dies, gets resurrected, and is free from his vows - able to head off and kick ass, save family, conquer kingdoms, get married, and all that other stuff with a free conscience"
Yeah, maybe not.
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-dies-interview
This just reeks of Kit lying to keep the ratings up and viewers engaged lol
How would he come back as Ghost? He wasn't a Warg was he?
Hmmm, well that definitely seems plausible then at least for the books, because I don't think the show ever portrayed him as a warg. And with Lady Melissandre coming back to the Wall when she didn't in the books, in addition to the lack of Lady Stoneheart, I'm guessing the show will have Melissandre raise him from the dead or something like that.
Here is a link to a bunch of theories http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/14/game-of-thrones-finale-jon-snow-dead_n_7557158.html.
Also in the books, all of the Stark children except for Rickon and Sansa can warg (although they might just not have done it yet).
Yeah but the only way I see Sansa's two storyline converging now is if she dies. I mean how is she going to go from marrying Harold in the books to ending up somewhere way far north with Theon (maybe at the Wall). I mean the only thing I can logically think of is that she dies or is completely and utterly meaningless to the overall story arc (and I don't think it is the latter and thus must be the former).Having now watched the season, I have no idea why they put Sansa in Winterfell to marry Ramsey if she wasn't going to get revenge on him and his father. It makes absolutely no sense. She should be in the Vale with Littlefinger like she is in the books if she wasn't going to get her revenge. It is just really strange to change her storyline and then not have her get revenge. Makes no sense.I think it's because they wanted to give Theon a chance to redeem himself. In the books Jayne Poole posing as Arya is the one that marries Ramsey. However, she doesn't exist on the shows so for Theon to get redemption he had to escape with a character that people care about on the show.
I agree that they shouldn't have done it this way, but I see the reasoning.
Maybe the Red God wanted to manipulate things so that The Bolton's were drawn out of Winterfell and Sansa had a chance to escape. Maybe the Bolton's flags burning is what happens after Sansa unites the north and convinces her allies (lead by the Eyerie) to take back Winterfell.
If Jon is dead... it makes the red woman entirely pointless as a character... and nobody would meet that with praise for Martin's arbitrary random writing style... they would meet it with ridicule.
Not necessarily.
Lady Melisandre met Arya. Said they'd meet again (also, notice the "eyes you'll shut forever"...). So could be a long way of developing characters for some storyline we don't know about yet...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAyCpREHf6k
Harrold Hardyng (Harry the Heir) next in line to the Vale after Sansa's sickly cousin Robert, at least that is Littlefinger's plan which he has set in motion and tells Sansa of at the end of Book 4 (Sansa isn't in Book 5). The Sansa chapter from book 6 that was released online confirms that all of that has been set in motion and Harrold and Sansa are to be married. Harrold does not yet know that Sansa is in fact Sansa Stark, he, as does everyone, believes Sansa to be Littlefinger's **** daughter.Yeah but the only way I see Sansa's two storyline converging now is if she dies. I mean how is she going to go from marrying Harold in the books to ending up somewhere way far north with Theon (maybe at the Wall). I mean the only thing I can logically think of is that she dies or is completely and utterly meaningless to the overall story arc (and I don't think it is the latter and thus must be the former).Having now watched the season, I have no idea why they put Sansa in Winterfell to marry Ramsey if she wasn't going to get revenge on him and his father. It makes absolutely no sense. She should be in the Vale with Littlefinger like she is in the books if she wasn't going to get her revenge. It is just really strange to change her storyline and then not have her get revenge. Makes no sense.I think it's because they wanted to give Theon a chance to redeem himself. In the books Jayne Poole posing as Arya is the one that marries Ramsey. However, she doesn't exist on the shows so for Theon to get redemption he had to escape with a character that people care about on the show.
I agree that they shouldn't have done it this way, but I see the reasoning.
I didn't think it was set in the books who she was going to marry, but I could just be forgetting.
If she runs back to the Eyrie that would put her back on track to be on her storyline from the book.
except when that was filmed I don't believe they knew they were going to put Sansa in Winterfell. She isn't there in the books.Maybe the Red God wanted to manipulate things so that The Bolton's were drawn out of Winterfell and Sansa had a chance to escape. Maybe the Bolton's flags burning is what happens after Sansa unites the north and convinces her allies (lead by the Eyerie) to take back Winterfell.
If Jon is dead... it makes the red woman entirely pointless as a character... and nobody would meet that with praise for Martin's arbitrary random writing style... they would meet it with ridicule.
Not necessarily.
Lady Melisandre met Arya. Said they'd meet again (also, notice the "eyes you'll shut forever"...). So could be a long way of developing characters for some storyline we don't know about yet...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAyCpREHf6k
It's possible that Melisandre knew this all along, or she was played by the Red God.
that is a good point, it wouldn't make sense for the red god to cook all this up just to free Sansa if she isn't there in the book. TPexcept when that was filmed I don't believe they knew they were going to put Sansa in Winterfell. She isn't there in the books.Maybe the Red God wanted to manipulate things so that The Bolton's were drawn out of Winterfell and Sansa had a chance to escape. Maybe the Bolton's flags burning is what happens after Sansa unites the north and convinces her allies (lead by the Eyerie) to take back Winterfell.
If Jon is dead... it makes the red woman entirely pointless as a character... and nobody would meet that with praise for Martin's arbitrary random writing style... they would meet it with ridicule.
Not necessarily.
Lady Melisandre met Arya. Said they'd meet again (also, notice the "eyes you'll shut forever"...). So could be a long way of developing characters for some storyline we don't know about yet...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAyCpREHf6k
It's possible that Melisandre knew this all along, or she was played by the Red God.
I can't really see Jon coming back. I feel like George RR Martin got bored with the Stannis/Jon Snow plotline and just ended it. Maybe Stannis doesn't die, but GRRM needs room for Littlefinger and the Knights of the Vale to come through and having Snow and a bunch of random Wildlings is going to muddy everything up. I'm pretty sure that the reason that Stannis had all his troops desert him was just because it was an easy plot device to have him lose that battle and get him out of the way.I'd bet you all of my TPs that Jon Snow is coming back. There's just no way he isn't. The entire story is built around him. For him to be dead permanently would negate SOOO Much of what we have been shown. Why was our time wasted on the brotherhood without banners (who resurrect people)? Why was our time wasted with the red woman and her quest for kingsblood... even hinted that she might be backing the wrong horse? Why was our time wasted with her flirting with Snow and setting up seeds for a future together? Why was so much time invested setting up a battle royale with Jon vs the whitewalker king? Why was so much time wasted on the Starks in general? Why was so much time wasted hinting that Jon isn't Eddard's ****? Why did they go out of their way to have TWO scenes this season talking about Rheagar Targayen (both littlefinger/sansa talking about them... and Dany talking to Barristan Selmy making it clear that Rheagar was just a widely beloved prince who sang out loud and fell in love with Eddard's sister?) ... Why was so much time wasted at the wall in general? Trust me... he's going to be resurrected. Anyone who thinks otherwise either hasn't been paying attention or doesn't understand how storytelling works. There is thousands of years of fake world building here... several ridiculously long books packed to the brim with characters... very limited screen time. They aren't going to waste the viewer's time with irrelevant details.
GRRM's original ideas for GOT, a sales pitch for his editor.read the letter from Martin to the publisher. Some definitely interesting stuff in there, but so much has been changed in the books I'm not sure how much value it has overall. There are obviously some potential spoilers about the ultimate end game though, so read at your own caution.
http://winteriscoming.net/2015/02/05/george-rr-martin-original-game-of-thrones-pitch/
http://watchersonthewall.com/george-r-r-martins-original-plan-game-thrones/
It says a warrior in the prophecy
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Azor_Ahai
this legend is more applicable to Bran
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Last_hero
GRRM's original ideas for GOT, a sales pitch for his editor.
http://winteriscoming.net/2015/02/05/george-rr-martin-original-game-of-thrones-pitch/
http://watchersonthewall.com/george-r-r-martins-original-plan-game-thrones/
It says a warrior in the prophecy
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Azor_Ahai
this legend is more applicable to Bran
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Last_hero
I think Jon Snow had to die so the prince that was promised would be reborn. I think that will be Jon but he may call himself something different.Yeah, I think Jon spends a good portion of next season/next book in Ghost's body and then Bran helps him get reborn in a different body (maybe that of one of the Children of the forest). So maybe Kit Harrington is dead as Jon Snow, but someone else will be playing him before the 6th season is over.
Jon, Arya, Tyrion, Dany live through the story too.
I think Jon Snow had to die so the prince that was promised would be reborn. I think that will be Jon but he may call himself something different.
My hope is that when the red witch revives Jon he decides to abandon the NWs because ... well they just tried to kill him. He then goes overseas and joins Danny and becomes one of the dragon riders.He won't have to go overseas, the dragons will be in Westeros soon enough.
My hope is that Dany is eaten by her caged dragons in some "shocking" scene that causes everyone to lose their minds... but ultimately will not matter, because Dany's purpose was to introduce Dragons back into the world for Jon to ride and Bran to warg.My hope is that when the red witch revives Jon he decides to abandon the NWs because ... well they just tried to kill him. He then goes overseas and joins Danny and becomes one of the dragon riders.He won't have to go overseas, the dragons will be in Westeros soon enough.
He will go by a bunch of names like Danny.I think Jon Snow had to die so the prince that was promised would be reborn. I think that will be Jon but he may call himself something different.
Gandalf the White?
My hope is that Dany is eaten by her caged dragons in some "shocking" scene that causes everyone to lose their minds... but ultimately will not matter, because Dany's purpose was to introduce Dragons back into the world for Jon to ride and Bran to warg.My hope is that when the red witch revives Jon he decides to abandon the NWs because ... well they just tried to kill him. He then goes overseas and joins Danny and becomes one of the dragon riders.He won't have to go overseas, the dragons will be in Westeros soon enough.
the mythology is 3 dragon riders, the general thought among fans is that Dany and Jon are clearly 2 of them. The third has a number of theories.My hope is that Dany is eaten by her caged dragons in some "shocking" scene that causes everyone to lose their minds... but ultimately will not matter, because Dany's purpose was to introduce Dragons back into the world for Jon to ride and Bran to warg.My hope is that when the red witch revives Jon he decides to abandon the NWs because ... well they just tried to kill him. He then goes overseas and joins Danny and becomes one of the dragon riders.He won't have to go overseas, the dragons will be in Westeros soon enough.
http://www.imdb.com/news/ni58855853/
Yesssssss.
Are you guys suggesting that Ian McShane will play Arther Dayne? That'd be tight. I assume he isn't dead yet.http://www.imdb.com/news/ni58855853/
Yesssssss.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-6-tower-of-joy-adds-fuel-to-jon-snow-fan-theory-amid-predictions-of-ned-starks-return-10390144.html
Saw this recently also.
I would guess this ultimately ends up validating the R + L = J and Tower of Joy fan theories next season. And with GoT creators/writers/cast vehemently stating that Jon Snow is "dead is dead is dead," it all seems too perfect for "Jon Targaryen" to make his first appearance this season.
Emilia Clarke also suggested what we're all thinking here, too: http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/emilia-clarke-jon-snow-alive-game-of-thrones-season-6-1201529727/
The red head witch is going to bring jon snow back to life.No doubt. It would blow my mind if that didn't happen. She has no other purpose.
Are you guys suggesting that Ian McShane will play Arther Dayne? That'd be tight. I assume he isn't dead yet.http://www.imdb.com/news/ni58855853/
Yesssssss.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-6-tower-of-joy-adds-fuel-to-jon-snow-fan-theory-amid-predictions-of-ned-starks-return-10390144.html
Saw this recently also.
I would guess this ultimately ends up validating the R + L = J and Tower of Joy fan theories next season. And with GoT creators/writers/cast vehemently stating that Jon Snow is "dead is dead is dead," it all seems too perfect for "Jon Targaryen" to make his first appearance this season.
Emilia Clarke also suggested what we're all thinking here, too: http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/emilia-clarke-jon-snow-alive-game-of-thrones-season-6-1201529727/
http://www.imdb.com/news/ni58855853/
Yesssssss.
I think he is Euron Greyjoy. The age and look would match a lot better than Howland Reed or Arthur Dayne.Are you guys suggesting that Ian McShane will play Arther Dayne? That'd be tight. I assume he isn't dead yet.http://www.imdb.com/news/ni58855853/
Yesssssss.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-6-tower-of-joy-adds-fuel-to-jon-snow-fan-theory-amid-predictions-of-ned-starks-return-10390144.html
Saw this recently also.
I would guess this ultimately ends up validating the R + L = J and Tower of Joy fan theories next season. And with GoT creators/writers/cast vehemently stating that Jon Snow is "dead is dead is dead," it all seems too perfect for "Jon Targaryen" to make his first appearance this season.
Emilia Clarke also suggested what we're all thinking here, too: http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/emilia-clarke-jon-snow-alive-game-of-thrones-season-6-1201529727/
Actually maybe he's playing HOwland Reed. The only witness to Jon's birth... supposedly dead, but I doubt it.
http://www.imdb.com/news/ni58855853/
Yesssssss.
Just saw McShane on the first Ray Donovan episode of Season 3. Weird, creepy little dude.
He would, I wonder if he won't play Archmaester Marwyn, Euron or Howland Reed.Haven't read the books, but I've stumbled on a couple wiki articles... I'm gonna guess Howland Reed.
If you haven't seen Deadwood you're missing out on on his portrayal of the best antagonists in modern American television, period. Antiheros are blown out at this point but Swearengen is forever.
If you haven't seen Deadwood you're missing out on on his portrayal of the best antagonists in modern American television, period. Antiheros are blown out at this point but Swearengen is forever.
A crying shame that show spun out of budgetary/directorial control...I would have loved to have seen where it went
It's open season for rumours, I guess. There's no actual written content to go by, so everything is fair game.
I mean it is strange, but Bran and the Greyjoy's (aside from Theon) weren't on the show last season after having big roles before and presumably big roles in season 6. It wouldn't be that hard to bring Lady Stoneheart into the fold now.It's open season for rumours, I guess. There's no actual written content to go by, so everything is fair game.
This rumor is directly related to written content that hasn't shown up on the show yet. So not quite the same thing.
I don't know, having Lady Stoneheart show up abruptly so long after the Red Wedding seems a little contrived, since they'd have to explain what she'd been doing for the year or so that's passed in Westeros since then. But I'd be curious to see where they'd go with it, and if it somehow brought us more Blackfish that'd be cool. And the Brotherhood Without Banners have pretty much disappeared since having a major role in Season 3, so a little closure there would be nice too.
It's open season for rumours, I guess. There's no actual written content to go by, so everything is fair game.
This rumor is directly related to written content that hasn't shown up on the show yet. So not quite the same thing.
I don't know, having Lady Stoneheart show up abruptly so long after the Red Wedding seems a little contrived, since they'd have to explain what she'd been doing for the year or so that's passed in Westeros since then. But I'd be curious to see where they'd go with it, and if it somehow brought us more Blackfish that'd be cool. And the Brotherhood Without Banners have pretty much disappeared since having a major role in Season 3, so a little closure there would be nice too.
The Hound is dead.It's open season for rumours, I guess. There's no actual written content to go by, so everything is fair game.
This rumor is directly related to written content that hasn't shown up on the show yet. So not quite the same thing.
I don't know, having Lady Stoneheart show up abruptly so long after the Red Wedding seems a little contrived, since they'd have to explain what she'd been doing for the year or so that's passed in Westeros since then. But I'd be curious to see where they'd go with it, and if it somehow brought us more Blackfish that'd be cool. And the Brotherhood Without Banners have pretty much disappeared since having a major role in Season 3, so a little closure there would be nice too.
Agreed about the Brotherhood. I don't need Lady Stoneheart, but that storyline feels like it was dropped too abruptly.
Also could use some better resolution to The Hound, though we may never get one.
It's open season for rumours, I guess. There's no actual written content to go by, so everything is fair game.
This rumor is directly related to written content that hasn't shown up on the show yet. So not quite the same thing.
I don't know, having Lady Stoneheart show up abruptly so long after the Red Wedding seems a little contrived, since they'd have to explain what she'd been doing for the year or so that's passed in Westeros since then. But I'd be curious to see where they'd go with it, and if it somehow brought us more Blackfish that'd be cool. And the Brotherhood Without Banners have pretty much disappeared since having a major role in Season 3, so a little closure there would be nice too.
Agreed about the Brotherhood. I don't need Lady Stoneheart, but that storyline feels like it was dropped too abruptly.
Also could use some better resolution to The Hound, though we may never get one.
The Hound is dead.It's open season for rumours, I guess. There's no actual written content to go by, so everything is fair game.
This rumor is directly related to written content that hasn't shown up on the show yet. So not quite the same thing.
I don't know, having Lady Stoneheart show up abruptly so long after the Red Wedding seems a little contrived, since they'd have to explain what she'd been doing for the year or so that's passed in Westeros since then. But I'd be curious to see where they'd go with it, and if it somehow brought us more Blackfish that'd be cool. And the Brotherhood Without Banners have pretty much disappeared since having a major role in Season 3, so a little closure there would be nice too.
Agreed about the Brotherhood. I don't need Lady Stoneheart, but that storyline feels like it was dropped too abruptly.
Also could use some better resolution to The Hound, though we may never get one.
The Hound is dead.It's open season for rumours, I guess. There's no actual written content to go by, so everything is fair game.
This rumor is directly related to written content that hasn't shown up on the show yet. So not quite the same thing.
I don't know, having Lady Stoneheart show up abruptly so long after the Red Wedding seems a little contrived, since they'd have to explain what she'd been doing for the year or so that's passed in Westeros since then. But I'd be curious to see where they'd go with it, and if it somehow brought us more Blackfish that'd be cool. And the Brotherhood Without Banners have pretty much disappeared since having a major role in Season 3, so a little closure there would be nice too.
Agreed about the Brotherhood. I don't need Lady Stoneheart, but that storyline feels like it was dropped too abruptly.
Also could use some better resolution to The Hound, though we may never get one.
The hound may be dead, but the gravedigger isn't. :D
the mythology is 3 dragon riders, the general thought among fans is that Dany and Jon are clearly 2 of them. The third has a number of theories.My hope is that Dany is eaten by her caged dragons in some "shocking" scene that causes everyone to lose their minds... but ultimately will not matter, because Dany's purpose was to introduce Dragons back into the world for Jon to ride and Bran to warg.My hope is that when the red witch revives Jon he decides to abandon the NWs because ... well they just tried to kill him. He then goes overseas and joins Danny and becomes one of the dragon riders.He won't have to go overseas, the dragons will be in Westeros soon enough.
The Hound is easily one of my favorite characters (Martin really seems to do a better job with the misfit types), so I hope there's more to his story.
My hope is that when the red witch revives Jon he decides to abandon the NWs because ... well they just tried to kill him. He then goes overseas and joins Danny and becomes one of the dragon riders.
He won't have to go overseas, the dragons will be in Westeros soon enough.They will need someone with leadership ability too, something Daenerys definitely lacks. Perhaps Tyrion will counsel her, but where she has governed it always has not went well. She is no war leader as well. In many ways I think she is the ultimate red herring, all early signs point to her in the prophecy. But so far, he has not always been a hero, not led well. I get why people like her, Emilia Clarke is smoking hot. But I think it will take 3 as is suggested here. Drogon with her, and two other riders, Tyrion is a good general, he was at Blackwater at least. Jon, has did well leading men until betrayed.
So that makes it even more likely that mcshane is playing a character like howland reed that can confirm the parentage of Jon snow.
Dickon Tarly has been cast
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/09/0...r?hootPostID=68a8cf9cc424cf0041450a32b1efd505
as has Euron Greyjoy
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/09/02/game-of-thrones-pilou-asbaek-euron-greyjoy
and the Three Eyed Raven (re-cast)
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/08/03/game-thrones-max-von-sydow
It doesn't kind of seem like Jon Snow might come back, or somehow not be dead. I've talked with a lot of friends and it seems like a common idea. But, maybe thats just what I want to happen. Non of the other Starks came back and it looks like the Hound is back, would they really bring back 2 people from the dead so close together?It could work as a theme of a single episode but it would dilute the series by having a lot of resurrections. So maybe they don't do them all just simply Cat and Snow (no cold hands). Cat at mid season to capture Stannis and Briene. Then Snow come at the season finale. Hound however is never suggested to have been resurrected it is suggested his survival is from medical help from the Sept that found him. Thus linking him to the order and the champion to face the Mountain. This season should have about two or three flash back episodes so holding off on the resurrections won't come out bad. Flash backs may also put more room for the books to get ahead.
It doesn't kind of seem like Jon Snow might come back, or somehow not be dead. I've talked with a lot of friends and it seems like a common idea. But, maybe thats just what I want to happen. Non of the other Starks came back and it looks like the Hound is back, would they really bring back 2 people from the dead so close together?
It doesn't kind of seem like Jon Snow might come back, or somehow not be dead. I've talked with a lot of friends and it seems like a common idea. But, maybe thats just what I want to happen. Non of the other Starks came back and it looks like the Hound is back, would they really bring back 2 people from the dead so close together?
It doesn't kind of seem like Jon Snow might come back, or somehow not be dead. I've talked with a lot of friends and it seems like a common idea. But, maybe thats just what I want to happen. Non of the other Starks came back and it looks like the Hound is back, would they really bring back 2 people from the dead so close together?There is no chance he doesn't come back to life. He's 100% coming back.
It doesn't kind of seem like Jon Snow might come back, or somehow not be dead. I've talked with a lot of friends and it seems like a common idea. But, maybe thats just what I want to happen. Non of the other Starks came back and it looks like the Hound is back, would they really bring back 2 people from the dead so close together?There is no chance he doesn't come back to life. He's 100% coming back.
In the books Momma Stark makes kind of a creepy return too. Wonder if that'll happen this year.
The point at which she came back in the books and how she effected the story has passed. They could reintroduce her later in the story but I think they just ignore "lady stoneheart"
In the books Momma Stark makes kind of a creepy return too. Wonder if that'll happen this year.
I`m pretty sure i`ve read/heard the producers say that they won`t follow Katlyn`s story
The point at which she came back in the books and how she effected the story has passed. They could reintroduce her later in the story but I think they just ignore "lady stoneheart"
In the books Momma Stark makes kind of a creepy return too. Wonder if that'll happen this year.
I`m pretty sure i`ve read/heard the producers say that they won`t follow Katlyn`s story
I think they could care less what fans of the book think. They have had spoilers, killed people not dead in the books like Barristan.
Though I did like the story line developing of Caitlyn coming back from the dead and joining an underground rebellion group.
The point at which she came back in the books and how she effected the story has passed. They could reintroduce her later in the story but I think they just ignore "lady stoneheart"
In the books Momma Stark makes kind of a creepy return too. Wonder if that'll happen this year.
I`m pretty sure i`ve read/heard the producers say that they won`t follow Katlyn`s story
There's speculation that Sansa is going to take on a lot of Lady Stoneheart's plot (minus the death and resurrection bit). That would make some sense story-wise, and would help explain the reason for some of the controversial changes to her plot (like having her raped and abused by Ramsay). I'd be cool with seeing her cleaning house on some Freys and Boltons, since she really hasn't done much but have a series of awful things happen to her so far.
Agreed, I'd rather see her unite the North from the shadows so the Boltons can't find her.The point at which she came back in the books and how she effected the story has passed. They could reintroduce her later in the story but I think they just ignore "lady stoneheart"
In the books Momma Stark makes kind of a creepy return too. Wonder if that'll happen this year.
I`m pretty sure i`ve read/heard the producers say that they won`t follow Katlyn`s story
There's speculation that Sansa is going to take on a lot of Lady Stoneheart's plot (minus the death and resurrection bit). That would make some sense story-wise, and would help explain the reason for some of the controversial changes to her plot (like having her raped and abused by Ramsay). I'd be cool with seeing her cleaning house on some Freys and Boltons, since she really hasn't done much but have a series of awful things happen to her so far.
I think I'll be disappointed if they decide the way to redeem / grow Sansa's character is to have her turn into a vindictive bad-ass.
We've seen that she's not a conniving court mistress like Cersei or Margaery. She's not cunning. But she's also not bloodthirsty. I want her character to have agency, but I don't think the only way to make a female character strong is to have her become a killer.
The point at which she came back in the books and how she effected the story has passed. They could reintroduce her later in the story but I think they just ignore "lady stoneheart"
In the books Momma Stark makes kind of a creepy return too. Wonder if that'll happen this year.
I`m pretty sure i`ve read/heard the producers say that they won`t follow Katlyn`s story
There's speculation that Sansa is going to take on a lot of Lady Stoneheart's plot (minus the death and resurrection bit). That would make some sense story-wise, and would help explain the reason for some of the controversial changes to her plot (like having her raped and abused by Ramsay). I'd be cool with seeing her cleaning house on some Freys and Boltons, since she really hasn't done much but have a series of awful things happen to her so far.
I think I'll be disappointed if they decide the way to redeem / grow Sansa's character is to have her turn into a vindictive bad-ass.
We've seen that she's not a conniving court mistress like Cersei or Margaery. She's not cunning. But she's also not bloodthirsty. I want her character to have agency, but I don't think the only way to make a female character strong is to have her become a killer.
Yep. There are 5 main characters. Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Sansa, and Arya. Entirely possible that some others not thought as main, may ultimately end up that way (Bran, Jamie, and Cersei are the 3 that spring to mind), but after reading the books and watching the show, this is really a story about those 5 people (and that doesn't mean all 5 live to see the end, but all 5 will be there to close to the end).The point at which she came back in the books and how she effected the story has passed. They could reintroduce her later in the story but I think they just ignore "lady stoneheart"
In the books Momma Stark makes kind of a creepy return too. Wonder if that'll happen this year.
I`m pretty sure i`ve read/heard the producers say that they won`t follow Katlyn`s story
There's speculation that Sansa is going to take on a lot of Lady Stoneheart's plot (minus the death and resurrection bit). That would make some sense story-wise, and would help explain the reason for some of the controversial changes to her plot (like having her raped and abused by Ramsay). I'd be cool with seeing her cleaning house on some Freys and Boltons, since she really hasn't done much but have a series of awful things happen to her so far.
I think I'll be disappointed if they decide the way to redeem / grow Sansa's character is to have her turn into a vindictive bad-ass.
We've seen that she's not a conniving court mistress like Cersei or Margaery. She's not cunning. But she's also not bloodthirsty. I want her character to have agency, but I don't think the only way to make a female character strong is to have her become a killer.
It would also be entirely redundant at this point in the story.
Re: J. Snow's "death:" I think a lot of people get mixed up when they fixate on Martin's apparent need to kill off 'important characters', when in actuality they're relatively minor characters in the grand scheme of the story --they were just portrayed as important through the way he played with the tropes of the genre when ASOFAI was getting underway. Vast difference.
The point at which she came back in the books and how she effected the story has passed. They could reintroduce her later in the story but I think they just ignore "lady stoneheart"
In the books Momma Stark makes kind of a creepy return too. Wonder if that'll happen this year.
I`m pretty sure i`ve read/heard the producers say that they won`t follow Katlyn`s story
There's speculation that Sansa is going to take on a lot of Lady Stoneheart's plot (minus the death and resurrection bit). That would make some sense story-wise, and would help explain the reason for some of the controversial changes to her plot (like having her raped and abused by Ramsay). I'd be cool with seeing her cleaning house on some Freys and Boltons, since she really hasn't done much but have a series of awful things happen to her so far.
I think I'll be disappointed if they decide the way to redeem / grow Sansa's character is to have her turn into a vindictive bad-ass.
We've seen that she's not a conniving court mistress like Cersei or Margaery. She's not cunning. But she's also not bloodthirsty. I want her character to have agency, but I don't think the only way to make a female character strong is to have her become a killer.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Bran seems pretty darn important to the white walker line, but when he merged with that tree at the end of book 5, it just got weird and I have no idea just how important he will ultimately become. If he becomes the leader of the first men, then yeah, hugely important, if not, not so much.
Bran is generally considered a main character in place of Sansa, though that's partly colored by Martin's statements that Bran was THE main character when he was first devising the series. Take that for whatever it's worth because he sure hasn't had much to do lately.The point at which she came back in the books and how she effected the story has passed. They could reintroduce her later in the story but I think they just ignore "lady stoneheart"
In the books Momma Stark makes kind of a creepy return too. Wonder if that'll happen this year.
I`m pretty sure i`ve read/heard the producers say that they won`t follow Katlyn`s story
There's speculation that Sansa is going to take on a lot of Lady Stoneheart's plot (minus the death and resurrection bit). That would make some sense story-wise, and would help explain the reason for some of the controversial changes to her plot (like having her raped and abused by Ramsay). I'd be cool with seeing her cleaning house on some Freys and Boltons, since she really hasn't done much but have a series of awful things happen to her so far.
I think I'll be disappointed if they decide the way to redeem / grow Sansa's character is to have her turn into a vindictive bad-ass.
We've seen that she's not a conniving court mistress like Cersei or Margaery. She's not cunning. But she's also not bloodthirsty. I want her character to have agency, but I don't think the only way to make a female character strong is to have her become a killer.
What's interesting about that is that in the books there've been some indications that she is becoming that cunning political actor - she starts playing the Lords of the Vale to help Littlefinger keep his position there, gets engaged to the next in line to inherit the Vale, etc. The show seemed to be moving in that direction 2 seasons ago, but then took the abrupt left turn where she gets abandoned and abused in Winterfell again.
I disagree that making a female character strong via vengeance implies that that's the only way to do it, especially when you're naming alternate examples in the same paragraph. But I think we agree that Sansa's character is pretty much a mess at this point and whatever ultimate arc they're planning for her hasn't been set up very well over the last few years. Unless of course that arc is "you're young and naive, then awful people are awful to you, then you die" in which case they're all over it.
Yep. There are 5 main characters. Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Sansa, and Arya. Entirely possible that some others not thought as main, may ultimately end up that way (Bran, Jamie, and Cersei are the 3 that spring to mind), but after reading the books and watching the show, this is really a story about those 5 people (and that doesn't mean all 5 live to see the end, but all 5 will be there to close to the end).The point at which she came back in the books and how she effected the story has passed. They could reintroduce her later in the story but I think they just ignore "lady stoneheart"
In the books Momma Stark makes kind of a creepy return too. Wonder if that'll happen this year.
I`m pretty sure i`ve read/heard the producers say that they won`t follow Katlyn`s story
There's speculation that Sansa is going to take on a lot of Lady Stoneheart's plot (minus the death and resurrection bit). That would make some sense story-wise, and would help explain the reason for some of the controversial changes to her plot (like having her raped and abused by Ramsay). I'd be cool with seeing her cleaning house on some Freys and Boltons, since she really hasn't done much but have a series of awful things happen to her so far.
I think I'll be disappointed if they decide the way to redeem / grow Sansa's character is to have her turn into a vindictive bad-ass.
We've seen that she's not a conniving court mistress like Cersei or Margaery. She's not cunning. But she's also not bloodthirsty. I want her character to have agency, but I don't think the only way to make a female character strong is to have her become a killer.
It would also be entirely redundant at this point in the story.
Re: J. Snow's "death:" I think a lot of people get mixed up when they fixate on Martin's apparent need to kill off 'important characters', when in actuality they're relatively minor characters in the grand scheme of the story --they were just portrayed as important through the way he played with the tropes of the genre when ASOFAI was getting underway. Vast difference.
Wrong way to look at it. IMO. Tyrion is pretty clearly the closest thing to a narrative compass the story has, but I don't think he's the main character in the traditional sense of the story. The world would turn without him, and he's fairly ancillary to the central conflict.Unless he is a dragon rider.
i think he isWrong way to look at it. IMO. Tyrion is pretty clearly the closest thing to a narrative compass the story has, but I don't think he's the main character in the traditional sense of the story. The world would turn without him, and he's fairly ancillary to the central conflict.Unless he is a dragon rider.
Wrong way to look at it. IMO. Tyrion is pretty clearly the closest thing to a narrative compass the story has, but I don't think he's the main character in the traditional sense of the story. The world would turn without him, and he's fairly ancillary to the central conflict.Unless he is a dragon rider.
Tyrion has ruled better than Dany and been in worse situations than Jon
Is the Game of Thrones thread in place just to make 110% sure everyone knows Celtics fans are complete nerds?The GoT thread (together with the other, I don't know, quarter of the forum that is not sports-related) is just to make sure we repel the meatheads whose idea of entertainment is limited to sports-talk-radio-style "discussion".
Liking one of the most popular shows on premium cable = complete nerd? Is it 1988 already?He doesn't like that the forum has non-Celtics content, so he's resorted to occasionally trolling those threads as they pop up in the LFT. Though as far as trolling goes, it's pretty weak sauce.
Liking one of the most popular shows on premium cable = complete nerd? Is it 1988 already?He doesn't like that the forum has non-Celtics content, so he's resorted to occasionally trolling those threads as they pop up in the LFT. Though as far as trolling goes, it's pretty weak sauce.
QuoteTyrion has ruled better than Dany and been in worse situations than Jon
Do you really think any thing he has been in has been as bad as Jon getting caesared? I think that tops it. Slavery one can endure, but he has not had half a dozen men stab him.
I have always thought he brings insight to situations in the book and other characters as he is very human and observant.
But there is no main character, I think, and especially, Tyrion. I think is going to be an ensemble of heroes like an ensemble movie. He may be the guy who gets them all to talk to unite their cause to beat the others as he know Jon and he knows Dany.( soon will in the books)
Wrong way to look at it. IMO. Tyrion is pretty clearly the closest thing to a narrative compass the story has, but I don't think he's the main character in the traditional sense of the story. The world would turn without him, and he's fairly ancillary to the central conflict.Well I do agree he is not in a traditional terms of a story and I also agree the world would move on without him. Yet the story isn't a traditional type and that world would be very dull without him. Who else would bring all the things he does to the table?
Wrong way to look at it. IMO. Tyrion is pretty clearly the closest thing to a narrative compass the story has, but I don't think he's the main character in the traditional sense of the story. The world would turn without him, and he's fairly ancillary to the central conflict.Well I do agree he is not in a traditional terms of a story and I also agree the world would move on without him. Yet the story isn't a traditional type and that world would be very dull without him. Who else would bring all the things he does to the table?
Wrong way to look at it. IMO. Tyrion is pretty clearly the closest thing to a narrative compass the story has, but I don't think he's the main character in the traditional sense of the story. The world would turn without him, and he's fairly ancillary to the central conflict.Well I do agree he is not in a traditional terms of a story and I also agree the world would move on without him. Yet the story isn't a traditional type and that world would be very dull without him. Who else would bring all the things he does to the table?
The Song of Fire and Ice story is very conventional in scope: You have The World, and you have THE BIG SCARY THING THREATENING THE WORLD (that'd be the White Walkers), which need to be stopped. And along the way you have all the things that make the world interesting. This is as basic a story telling premise as you'll find anywhere, fantasy or otherwise.
Tyrion is, so far, one of those things that makes the world interesting. He's far and away the most intelligent observer of the world around him (at least compared to his fellow narrators), and he's also put into a position where he can directly experience every strata of the society that GRRM needs him too, since he's obscenely wealthy, belongs to a powerful family, but is a dwarf, i.e. persona non grata in the 'polite' society that the world is created -- This is, obviously, by design.
Martin has, in Tyrion, the freedom to go anywhere and do pretty much anything as a narrative device: and he's been very liberal with that throughout the series so far, and it's part of the reason he hasn't been killed off while someone like Ned Stark, who is dreadfully boring as a character in terms of how he'll react to future situations and the like, was.
All that said: Tyrion could wake up tomorrow, say screw it, and sail off into the distance to drink and **** for the rest of his days without directly effecting the central conflict of the story in a way that, say, Dany, cannot. That won't happen (obviously), but I hope it explains what I'm trying to say.
I don't want to bore you with the details of what denotes traditional storytelling but multiple narrators is not particularly atypical, even in the genre of fantasy.Well I can easily point out in cataclysm stories defeating the great evil doesn't always happen or is it always accomplished by the main character. Sometimes the story is about the main character dealing with the circumstances.
Not that I disagree with you about the radness of T. Lannister, just pointing it out.
...which has nothing to do with the metrics of traditional storytelling in the slightest. Nor does it refute (or affirm) anything that I've said in this thread, and I'm not sure it even connects to the conversation in any fashion save a very generous and tenuous interpretation in which because you've said something it is part of the discussion at hand.I wasnt talking about traditional. I am speaking untraditional which was my counter point when you said Tryrion can't be the main character. I was saying the story isn't traditional therefore he can be. Then in the course of your posted stuff you claimed it was and one reason was due to big bad evil. I went on to counter to that and by saying look at the structure. You gave a vague counter point to which I followed suit with my own vague counter.
In the spirit of your post: My favorite shade of yellow is Chartreuse. What's yours?
Edit: this could be ruder than I intended -- I'm not disagreeing with you in practice, just in premise + definition.
I don't know...being wrongly accused and tried for murder of your nephew by your own father , who then uses the love of your life as his personal prostitute, while almost everyone turns their back on you and leaves you for dead waiting for execution, that's got to be at least pretty darn close to what Jon Snow endured.\
...which has nothing to do with the metrics of traditional storytelling in the slightest. Nor does it refute (or affirm) anything that I've said in this thread, and I'm not sure it even connects to the conversation in any fashion save a very generous and tenuous interpretation in which because you've said something it is part of the discussion at hand.I wasnt talking about traditional. I am speaking untraditional which was my counter point when you said Tryrion can't be the main character. I was saying the story isn't traditional therefore he can be. Then in the course of your posted stuff you claimed it was and one reason was due to big bad evil. I went on to counter to that and by saying look at the structure. You gave a vague counter point to which I followed suit with my own vague counter.
In the spirit of your post: My favorite shade of yellow is Chartreuse. What's yours?
Edit: this could be ruder than I intended -- I'm not disagreeing with you in practice, just in premise + definition.
I don't find your post rude just wrong. Which is why we can happily disagree.
Story telling from ASOFAI is not traditional. That is flat out wrong....which has nothing to do with the metrics of traditional storytelling in the slightest. Nor does it refute (or affirm) anything that I've said in this thread, and I'm not sure it even connects to the conversation in any fashion save a very generous and tenuous interpretation in which because you've said something it is part of the discussion at hand.I wasnt talking about traditional. I am speaking untraditional which was my counter point when you said Tryrion can't be the main character. I was saying the story isn't traditional therefore he can be. Then in the course of your posted stuff you claimed it was and one reason was due to big bad evil. I went on to counter to that and by saying look at the structure. You gave a vague counter point to which I followed suit with my own vague counter.
In the spirit of your post: My favorite shade of yellow is Chartreuse. What's yours?
Edit: this could be ruder than I intended -- I'm not disagreeing with you in practice, just in premise + definition.
I don't find your post rude just wrong. Which is why we can happily disagree.
The story is traditional. The storytelling is traditional. The arcs of the characters are, you guessed it, traditional. There is nothing avante garde or postmodern about GoT or ASOFAI.
The fact that you don't understand what that means is not the same as happily disagreeing.
I don't want to bore you with the details of what denotes traditional storytelling but multiple narrators is not particularly atypical, even in the genre of fantasy.
The fact that you don't understand what that means is not the same as happily disagreeing.
No go ahead please continue to bore me... ::)I don't want to bore you with the details of what denotes traditional storytelling but multiple narrators is not particularly atypical, even in the genre of fantasy.The fact that you don't understand what that means is not the same as happily disagreeing.
Yeah and by "main characters" you mean the Han, Leia, Chewie, C3PO, and R2D2 of the story.... But Jon snow is the Luke Skywalker. The entire story revolves around him. Everything happening is to provide additional context to his story. His arc is central to the entire series. The thing that makes George R R Martin's writing (and the TV show) unique is that this isn't obvious. This could have been a traditional hero's journey story about a bassturd's wild journey to the throne, but they tell the story in such a way that you make characters like Admiral Ackbarr, Lando, Boba Fett, and Tarkin seem just as important and have as much depth as the central characters. And when you watch the first 13 episodes thinking Obi Wan is the main character, it makes his death all the more shocking.Yep. There are 5 main characters. Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Sansa, and Arya. Entirely possible that some others not thought as main, may ultimately end up that way (Bran, Jamie, and Cersei are the 3 that spring to mind), but after reading the books and watching the show, this is really a story about those 5 people (and that doesn't mean all 5 live to see the end, but all 5 will be there to close to the end).The point at which she came back in the books and how she effected the story has passed. They could reintroduce her later in the story but I think they just ignore "lady stoneheart"
In the books Momma Stark makes kind of a creepy return too. Wonder if that'll happen this year.
I`m pretty sure i`ve read/heard the producers say that they won`t follow Katlyn`s story
There's speculation that Sansa is going to take on a lot of Lady Stoneheart's plot (minus the death and resurrection bit). That would make some sense story-wise, and would help explain the reason for some of the controversial changes to her plot (like having her raped and abused by Ramsay). I'd be cool with seeing her cleaning house on some Freys and Boltons, since she really hasn't done much but have a series of awful things happen to her so far.
I think I'll be disappointed if they decide the way to redeem / grow Sansa's character is to have her turn into a vindictive bad-ass.
We've seen that she's not a conniving court mistress like Cersei or Margaery. She's not cunning. But she's also not bloodthirsty. I want her character to have agency, but I don't think the only way to make a female character strong is to have her become a killer.
It would also be entirely redundant at this point in the story.
Re: J. Snow's "death:" I think a lot of people get mixed up when they fixate on Martin's apparent need to kill off 'important characters', when in actuality they're relatively minor characters in the grand scheme of the story --they were just portrayed as important through the way he played with the tropes of the genre when ASOFAI was getting underway. Vast difference.
Off topic but wasn't Han's death contemplation more related to contract negotiations?Yeah and by "main characters" you mean the Han, Leia, Chewie, C3PO, and R2D2 of the story.... But Jon snow is the Luke Skywalker. The entire story revolves around him. Everything happening is to provide additional context to his story. His arc is central to the entire series. The thing that makes George R R Martin's writing (and the TV show) unique is that this isn't obvious. This could have been a traditional hero's journey story about a bassturd's wild journey to the throne, but they tell the story in such a way that you make characters like Admiral Ackbarr, Lando, Boba Fett, and Tarkin seem just as important and have as much depth as the central characters. And when you watch the first 13 episodes thinking Obi Wan is the main character, it makes his death all the more shocking.Yep. There are 5 main characters. Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Sansa, and Arya. Entirely possible that some others not thought as main, may ultimately end up that way (Bran, Jamie, and Cersei are the 3 that spring to mind), but after reading the books and watching the show, this is really a story about those 5 people (and that doesn't mean all 5 live to see the end, but all 5 will be there to close to the end).The point at which she came back in the books and how she effected the story has passed. They could reintroduce her later in the story but I think they just ignore "lady stoneheart"
In the books Momma Stark makes kind of a creepy return too. Wonder if that'll happen this year.
I`m pretty sure i`ve read/heard the producers say that they won`t follow Katlyn`s story
There's speculation that Sansa is going to take on a lot of Lady Stoneheart's plot (minus the death and resurrection bit). That would make some sense story-wise, and would help explain the reason for some of the controversial changes to her plot (like having her raped and abused by Ramsay). I'd be cool with seeing her cleaning house on some Freys and Boltons, since she really hasn't done much but have a series of awful things happen to her so far.
I think I'll be disappointed if they decide the way to redeem / grow Sansa's character is to have her turn into a vindictive bad-ass.
We've seen that she's not a conniving court mistress like Cersei or Margaery. She's not cunning. But she's also not bloodthirsty. I want her character to have agency, but I don't think the only way to make a female character strong is to have her become a killer.
It would also be entirely redundant at this point in the story.
Re: J. Snow's "death:" I think a lot of people get mixed up when they fixate on Martin's apparent need to kill off 'important characters', when in actuality they're relatively minor characters in the grand scheme of the story --they were just portrayed as important through the way he played with the tropes of the genre when ASOFAI was getting underway. Vast difference.
Edit: fwiw, I'd label Tyron the Han Solo of the series. He's not the central character but he's obviously a crucial viewpoint. I could see him dying before the end of the series (they gave thought to killing off Han before the end of the original trilogy), but I'd be shocked to see this series end without Jon Snow's arc reaching its royal conclusion.
Daenerys invaded Westeros a lot sooner after killing her husband. Khal Drogo does dispatch Danys brother, Viserys, but in Martins original plan, she resents him for it, and bides her time until she can kill Drogo in vengeance. Then she flees into the wilderness, where she discovers three dragon eggs that will allow her to invade the Seven Kingdoms. Her return to Westeros was intended to be the focus of the second volume in Martins trilogy, A Dance with Dragons, while the war against the Others and a climactic final battle at the Wall wouldve form the basis for Martins last novel, The Winds of Winter.
Five characters were designed to survive all three books. It should come as no surprise given these breakdowns and the perspectives of Martins published books, but Daenerys, Arya, Jon, Bran and Tyrion are the five POV characters that Martin initially intended to follow all the way through the story, growing from children to adults and changing themselves and the world in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, he writes in his 1993 letter. Whether A Song of Ice and Fire will follow this original outline remains to be seen (and could be called into question by the events of what became Martins fifth book, A Dance with Dragons.) Ultimately, the only way to find out is to keep reading or watching.
No go ahead please continue to bore me... ::)I don't want to bore you with the details of what denotes traditional storytelling but multiple narrators is not particularly atypical, even in the genre of fantasy.The fact that you don't understand what that means is not the same as happily disagreeing.
Oh yes and to you if it's a character and a plot it's traditional story. Ya I got that lol Analyzing actual things like character growth, roles and material writen that shows more evolution and diversity is over your head. Because Tyrion "can leave at any time".No go ahead please continue to bore me... ::)I don't want to bore you with the details of what denotes traditional storytelling but multiple narrators is not particularly atypical, even in the genre of fantasy.The fact that you don't understand what that means is not the same as happily disagreeing.
I'm sorry that you get bored when people attempt to explain things to you. Perhaps this is why you have an incorrect view of what constitutes "traditional storytelling."
But, you know, that Geoffrey Chaucer and his multiple perspectives, very cutting edge stuff. Frame stories are totally next-level.
So it's a reading comprehension problem. Go figure.No its not you just don't like being wrong.
::)Seriously I know now why people messenge me that your tag is DOS
Traditional story telling is done from a single point of view as the main character or via omnipotent narration. Which is not the case here.
When you post something like:They are not smart when it isn't directly addressing valid counter points, but going off on a tangent. And followed by a rude comment. It's b to the s and evasive. It's like the NFL lawyers when sited MLB case without coming to terms on the details.Traditional story telling is done from a single point of view as the main character or via omnipotent narration. Which is not the case here.
There's not much to do except sigh and shrug, particularly since I've tried to explain where you've been mistaken and you just 'lol' your way towards missing the point, again.
To the above post: I don't care if stupid people think I'm a jerk. Sorry if that rustles your jimmies, but it's true. Smart posts merit smart responses. Others, well, not so much.
A) Cited, not sited.Oh great let's go off even more from the point and talk about choice words and missed used synoyms. You proved my point.
B) I didn't comment on it earlier, but "untraditional"?
C) I would have to encounter an actual counterpoint in order to address it.
I am glad you enjoy the show and the books. Please don't take it badly when I tell you that it seems like you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to narrative structure.
Guys always like the think that their authors are unique, DOS. This is almost never the case. Everyone borrows from somebody.No one is saying it is unique. Don't try to put words in my mouth or make this a different debate. The fact that there are multiple stories means there can be multiple main characters. I was pointing out that the story has one character that seems to be involved in each characters story. Tyrion, and given his travels and experience he can be considered the main character of the whole book. Dos is stuck on Jon and it's blasphemy suggesting KH isn't the star.
GRRM loves Tolkien, and while his writing is more visceral, and more morally grey. He has even said, he wants a bittersweet ending like the Scourging of the Shire and a PTSD Frodo.
Multiple POV is nothing new either
https://www.librarything.com/topic/77880
though I think it has become popular due to Martin's success
https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/multiple-pov
There's not much to do except sigh and shrug, particularly since I've tried to explain where you've been mistaken and you just 'lol' your way towards missing the point, again.
I haven't said anything about Jon Snow this entire time. You're out of your depth.
Alternatively:There's not much to do except sigh and shrug, particularly since I've tried to explain where you've been mistaken and you just 'lol' your way towards missing the point, again.
Yeah this debate is going nowhere fast. Question though - why do so many people take it for granted that there's going to be three major characters riding dragons? I mean it's plausible enough but it's kinda weird how it's treated as a given.I thought the same thing as far as dragon riders. All speculation. Though there are only three dragons currently to ride so technically true. My issue is if a Dragon is trained can't anyone ride it? And if anyone can ride a trained dragon how important is it to be a rider? But lets say dragons even trained only allow one person ever to ride them so there can be only three. Now in regards to Bran if he wargs a dragon is he the dragon or riding the dragon? If he is riding than that means there are 4 possible riders. If he is considered the dragon himself then someone is riding him, but is that him or still someone riding on a dragon? And if they are riding a dragon still then he wouldn't be opposed to Arya, Sansa, Rickon or other people he knows riding him so now there are more dragon riders.
...if so everybody's sleeping on Victarion Greyjoy. Dude's got a dragonbinding horn and a burning lava hand. Doesn't get much more metal than that. Though it wouldn't end well for him I imagine.
I haven't said anything about Jon Snow this entire time. You're out of your depth.
Alternatively:There's not much to do except sigh and shrug, particularly since I've tried to explain where you've been mistaken and you just 'lol' your way towards missing the point, again.
KH specifically no but Jon oh yes you did. The KH thing was a joke obviously. And you admitted to multiple main characters and to if Tyrion is a rider then he can be the main character. So it's silly to keep going back and forth. You are stuck on he must defeat the great bad of the book to be your guy. We don't even know who will stop the White Walkers or even if they are stopped. You shouldn't go solely on white walkers premise. Its pretty clear Tyrion will be involved with that battle in the end anyways.
Doesn't Euron have the horn? I can't remember from the books. I know Victarion is on his way there.
Any one can go back and read the post you replied to in other people's claims about Tyrion and multiple main characters. You agreed on rider. You agreed on multiple main characters. You however gave my b to the s on he must defeat of White walkers and traditional story junk.I haven't said anything about Jon Snow this entire time. You're out of your depth.
Alternatively:There's not much to do except sigh and shrug, particularly since I've tried to explain where you've been mistaken and you just 'lol' your way towards missing the point, again.
KH specifically no but Jon oh yes you did. The KH thing was a joke obviously. And you admitted to multiple main characters and to if Tyrion is a rider then he can be the main character. So it's silly to keep going back and forth. You are stuck on he must defeat the great bad of the book to be your guy. We don't even know who will stop the White Walkers or even if they are stopped. You shouldn't go solely on white walkers premise. Its pretty clear Tyrion will be involved with that battle in the end anyways.
Worth noting that none of this is any way representative of what I said in the slightest, which should be fairly obvious to all involved at this point.
Very excited to see the divergences in Season 6 from what'll be in the books.
Don't try to put words in my mouth or make this a different debate. The fact that there are multiple stories means there can be multiple main characters. I was pointing out that the story has one character that seems to be involved in each characters story. Tyrion, and given his travels and experience he can be considered the main character of the whole book. Dos is stuck on Jon and it's blasphemy suggesting KH isn't the star.
And where's Rickon?back this season supposedly.
Trailer tease for Season 6!I'm soooo pumped. I am sad that the book probably isn't coming out before the show though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxI8aPISq8I
Trailer tease for Season 6!I'm soooo pumped. I am sad that the book probably isn't coming out before the show though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxI8aPISq8I
Trailer tease for Season 6!I'm soooo pumped. I am sad that the book probably isn't coming out before the show though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxI8aPISq8I
Trailer tease for Season 6!I'm soooo pumped. I am sad that the book probably isn't coming out before the show though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxI8aPISq8I
I've mostly forgotten there's even a book series. If another book ever comes out it'll be a pleasant surprise.
Martin said he's given them general direction of the story, but the understanding is that the movies and the books will be to separate takes -- and thus are expected to differ.Trailer tease for Season 6!I'm soooo pumped. I am sad that the book probably isn't coming out before the show though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxI8aPISq8I
Yeah, it will definitely be interesting to see how they handle that, given that this year's season will get into territory that the books haven't been yet.
I heard a rumor from some online Spanish source that the book was set for publication in 2016 sometime. I'll try to find the link.
Speculation by many is that HBO moved back the premiere of the show by a month or so so that the book could come out first.Good. I was a book reader first and it will take away some of my enjoyment of reading the book if the show comes out first.
This article was posted earlier, but I think it is worth posting again. It is a letter before the first book was written which outlines Martin's idea. A lot has changed since then, but it does give an idea as to his initial direction for the story and thought process.
http://winteriscoming.net/2015/02/05/george-rr-martin-original-game-of-thrones-pitch/ (http://winteriscoming.net/2015/02/05/george-rr-martin-original-game-of-thrones-pitch/)
Well, the book and the show are sort of separate now, so there's no telling how much one will spoil the other.Speculation by many is that HBO moved back the premiere of the show by a month or so so that the book could come out first.Good. I was a book reader first and it will take away some of my enjoyment of reading the book if the show comes out first.
This article was posted earlier, but I think it is worth posting again. It is a letter before the first book was written which outlines Martin's idea. A lot has changed since then, but it does give an idea as to his initial direction for the story and thought process.
http://winteriscoming.net/2015/02/05/george-rr-martin-original-game-of-thrones-pitch/ (http://winteriscoming.net/2015/02/05/george-rr-martin-original-game-of-thrones-pitch/)
I'm pumped for the season. What's the over-under on how many episodes until Jon Snow is resurrected?If I were to set one I'd say 3.
I saw something similar but contrary to that theory, Moranis.I don't buy that one. They burn bodies at the wall so they don't rise from the dead.
What I saw suggested that Jon Snow's body would be placed in the ice of the wall, preserving him, until at some point he is resurrected.
In this way Jon would be reborn via ice, whereas Dany was reborn by fire. This would continue the notion that they are equal opposites that need to come together in order to bring the series to its conclusion (Ice & Fire).
The textual support for this was pretty sparse, but it mentioned a vision Dany has in the lair of the warlocks that showed a flower growing out of ice.
On the other hand, maybe Jon is fire in the same way Dany is fire -- both Targaryen -- and the Ice & Fire thing is all about the "fire" of the dragons versus the "ice" of the White Walkers.
I think Jon gets resurrected in the first episode. Can't see any reason to drag that out as they need to advance his storyline.In the teaser they put out the Onion Knight, Ghost and a couple guys were defending Jon's body. I think the reason they were doing this was so that they can prevent it from getting burned at the wall. I think they will take have a couple episodes of Davos traveling with the body to bring it back to the North.
I saw something similar but contrary to that theory, Moranis.I don't buy that one. They burn bodies at the wall so they don't rise from the dead.
What I saw suggested that Jon Snow's body would be placed in the ice of the wall, preserving him, until at some point he is resurrected.
In this way Jon would be reborn via ice, whereas Dany was reborn by fire. This would continue the notion that they are equal opposites that need to come together in order to bring the series to its conclusion (Ice & Fire).
The textual support for this was pretty sparse, but it mentioned a vision Dany has in the lair of the warlocks that showed a flower growing out of ice.
On the other hand, maybe Jon is fire in the same way Dany is fire -- both Targaryen -- and the Ice & Fire thing is all about the "fire" of the dragons versus the "ice" of the White Walkers.
No I meant white walker zombie rise from the dead. That has happened numerous times at the wall so they just burn everyone now. No burying of any kind or else you face a zombie version of that person.I saw something similar but contrary to that theory, Moranis.I don't buy that one. They burn bodies at the wall so they don't rise from the dead.
What I saw suggested that Jon Snow's body would be placed in the ice of the wall, preserving him, until at some point he is resurrected.
In this way Jon would be reborn via ice, whereas Dany was reborn by fire. This would continue the notion that they are equal opposites that need to come together in order to bring the series to its conclusion (Ice & Fire).
The textual support for this was pretty sparse, but it mentioned a vision Dany has in the lair of the warlocks that showed a flower growing out of ice.
On the other hand, maybe Jon is fire in the same way Dany is fire -- both Targaryen -- and the Ice & Fire thing is all about the "fire" of the dragons versus the "ice" of the White Walkers.
Well, maybe that's the plot device that leads to his resurrection. If he's really a Targaryen (and a heroic one) like Dany, does he not burn?
Sansa is on the run with Theon. She is not going to be a ruler in the North until her "uncle" Littlefinger shows up with the Knights of the Vale to re-take Winterfell. Of course by then Rickon will probably be back and males are ahead of females in the chain of succession.I think Jon gets resurrected in the first episode. Can't see any reason to drag that out as they need to advance his storyline.In the teaser they put out the Onion Knight, Ghost and a couple guys were defending Jon's body. I think the reason they were doing this was so that they can prevent it from getting burned at the wall. I think they will take have a couple episodes of Davos traveling with the body to bring it back to the North.
As far as why they would wait on bringing him back, I think they want to establish Sansa as the leader of the North and they couldn't do that if Jon came immediately. I'm assuming Jon will go back to north and not stay at the night's watch once he's revived.
What's better than a Celtics win to tie up the playoff series?lol totally
Getting to watch the series premier of Game of Thrones right after it!
I knew they'd make us wait with Jon, but it seems pretty clear that they're going to try and have the Red Witch bring him back to life. Between Davos saying they could ask the Red Witch for help and her saying she saw him in the fire fighting in Winterfell, they're setting the story up for it. Unfortunately, I think they'll play it out over the season with Jon and Sansa, after being brought to the Wall by Brienne, ultimately battling Ramsay Bolton at the Wall before marching south to take back Winterfell.I really do not know what from the books will be in the series. One thing I really want is for Danny to train her dragons and if they could go back in the past like a flashback.
And how about what's going on in Dorne?! Pretty crazy stuff!
who was the girl laying dead when jamie was talking to that holier than tho dudeMyrcella
i need answers
HE LIVES!!
I'm so glad they didn't draw that out too much like The Walking Dead. It was pretty well done, too, though with as much emphasis as they put on Ghost I thought he was ultimately going to warg into him.
And, yeah, is it just me or was that the Tower of Joy scene that was displayed for next week's episode? A lot of fan theories could be proven right!
HE LIVES!!
I'm so glad they didn't draw that out too much like The Walking Dead. It was pretty well done, too, though with as much emphasis as they put on Ghost I thought he was ultimately going to warg into him.
And, yeah, is it just me or was that the Tower of Joy scene that was displayed for next week's episode? A lot of fan theories could be proven right!
Yep. That was definitely the Tower of Joy, especially after they decided to (literally) trot Lyanna Stark in this episode for no real reason.
HE LIVES!!
I'm so glad they didn't draw that out too much like The Walking Dead. It was pretty well done, too, though with as much emphasis as they put on Ghost I thought he was ultimately going to warg into him.
And, yeah, is it just me or was that the Tower of Joy scene that was displayed for next week's episode? A lot of fan theories could be proven right!
Yep. That was definitely the Tower of Joy, especially after they decided to (literally) trot Lyanna Stark in this episode for no real reason.
Inquiring minds want to know more about young Hodor.
i bet he was a knight at the tower of joy fighting for the starksHE LIVES!!
I'm so glad they didn't draw that out too much like The Walking Dead. It was pretty well done, too, though with as much emphasis as they put on Ghost I thought he was ultimately going to warg into him.
And, yeah, is it just me or was that the Tower of Joy scene that was displayed for next week's episode? A lot of fan theories could be proven right!
Yep. That was definitely the Tower of Joy, especially after they decided to (literally) trot Lyanna Stark in this episode for no real reason.
Inquiring minds want to know more about young Hodor.
i bet he was a knoght at the tower of joy fighting for the starksHE LIVES!!
I'm so glad they didn't draw that out too much like The Walking Dead. It was pretty well done, too, though with as much emphasis as they put on Ghost I thought he was ultimately going to warg into him.
And, yeah, is it just me or was that the Tower of Joy scene that was displayed for next week's episode? A lot of fan theories could be proven right!
Yep. That was definitely the Tower of Joy, especially after they decided to (literally) trot Lyanna Stark in this episode for no real reason.
Inquiring minds want to know more about young Hodor.
I knew st some point that they are going to bring Jon Snow back, but I didn't expect it in EPISODE 2.
HOLY MOLLY! That was awesome.
Also, I never thought of hate a character more than I hated Joffrey. Ramsey is on a whole different level...
What and episode.
Jon Snow is really the son of Lyanna Stark (Ned's sister, hence her appearance in Bran's flashback today) and Rhaegar Targaryean (Dany's oldest brother, not the ****bag one killed on the show). He's debatably the Song of Ice (Stark) and Fire (Targaryean) personified and almost definitely the hero of the whole story. So there was never really anyway he was ever dead for good.yeah that's clearly where it's going. The only reason it wouldn't go in that direction is because everyone has already guessed it and they want to have some arbitrary surprises. But that would be really bad storytelling. The whole story has built towards that reveal.
Melisandre is some sort of witch who has magic powers and was able to bring him back.
As for the dead girl, that was Jamie and Cersei's daughter Myrcella, killed in season 5's finale by the Dornish women.
We have Martin to thank to sticking to the plan despite guesses. He clues readers and wants to reward them. He said he would never change things for the sake of keeping readers off balance. He says that isn't honoring the readers or fans. Many other writers would have absolutely switched things up to keep people guessing longer.Jon Snow is really the son of Lyanna Stark (Ned's sister, hence her appearance in Bran's flashback today) and Rhaegar Targaryean (Dany's oldest brother, not the ****bag one killed on the show). He's debatably the Song of Ice (Stark) and Fire (Targaryean) personified and almost definitely the hero of the whole story. So there was never really anyway he was ever dead for good.yeah that's clearly where it's going. The only reason it wouldn't go in that direction is because everyone has already guessed it and they want to have some arbitrary surprises. But that would be really bad storytelling. The whole story has built towards that reveal.
Melisandre is some sort of witch who has magic powers and was able to bring him back.
As for the dead girl, that was Jamie and Cersei's daughter Myrcella, killed in season 5's finale by the Dornish women.
I think Snow coming back like he did makes him less likely to be a Targaryan. There wasn't any fire involved. And even Danny didn't get resurrected though she is clearly at least Valaryan if not a Targaryan.Interesting theory, but Dany hasn't come back from the dead so I'm not sure it really plays with your thinking. Coming back from the dead and surviving fire are two very different things.
If you look at the people brought back in the books, Caitlynn Stark, Berric Dondarian, and Sandor Clegane (alluded to), none of them are Targaryan or even Valaryan. So why would Jon be? It is more likely Jon is the child of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne and there was a baby swap with the daughter of Lyanna and Rheagar since Danny couldn't possibly pass as a **** child of Ned and some commoner.
I know. That is what I was saying. No Targaryans have ever been resurrected to my knowledge. Why would him coming back make him a Targaryan?You are making a connection that isn't necessarily there though.
I know. That is what I was saying. No Targaryans have ever been resurrected to my knowledge. Why would him coming back make him a Targaryan?I don't think coming back will make him a Targaryan, I think what we will see next week at the tower of Joy will make it clear he's a Targaryan.
I dont blame people for questioning Snow's heritage since not a lot of solid concrete proof yet. On my stuff I am 100% making some wild and unnecessary connections between the seven and red god. Doesn't matter if red god works only on the seven. Or if the characters represent the seven. It's all theory till its reveled and explained. It's good to have Snow back. Someone who is more focus on the realm getting together to fight the white walkers than for gaining power.I know. That is what I was saying. No Targaryans have ever been resurrected to my knowledge. Why would him coming back make him a Targaryan?You are making a connection that isn't necessarily there though.
We have Martin to thank to sticking to the plan despite guesses. He clues readers and wants to reward them. He said he would never change things for the sake of keeping readers off balance. He says that isn't honoring the readers or fans. Many other writers would have absolutely switched things up to keep people guessing longer.Jon Snow is really the son of Lyanna Stark (Ned's sister, hence her appearance in Bran's flashback today) and Rhaegar Targaryean (Dany's oldest brother, not the ****bag one killed on the show). He's debatably the Song of Ice (Stark) and Fire (Targaryean) personified and almost definitely the hero of the whole story. So there was never really anyway he was ever dead for good.yeah that's clearly where it's going. The only reason it wouldn't go in that direction is because everyone has already guessed it and they want to have some arbitrary surprises. But that would be really bad storytelling. The whole story has built towards that reveal.
Melisandre is some sort of witch who has magic powers and was able to bring him back.
As for the dead girl, that was Jamie and Cersei's daughter Myrcella, killed in season 5's finale by the Dornish women.
I'm pretty sure she is there. In fact, I don't think she ever left.I know. That is what I was saying. No Targaryans have ever been resurrected to my knowledge. Why would him coming back make him a Targaryan?I don't think coming back will make him a Targaryan, I think what we will see next week at the tower of Joy will make it clear he's a Targaryan.
However, in the book, Melisandre wasn't at the wall when Jon died, so I think the show went in a different direction in how they brought Jon back than the book will.
So that, coupled with the fact that Lynanna was literally trotted out this episode and in the preview for next week of a young Ned about to fight Rhaegar at the Tower or Joy, all but guarantees that R+L=J.He's fighting several of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy not Rhaegar.
It's been a long time since I read the books so I'm not sure of her location when he dies. But I remember thinking that she wasn't there when he died.I'm pretty sure she is there. In fact, I don't think she ever left.I know. That is what I was saying. No Targaryans have ever been resurrected to my knowledge. Why would him coming back make him a Targaryan?I don't think coming back will make him a Targaryan, I think what we will see next week at the tower of Joy will make it clear he's a Targaryan.
However, in the book, Melisandre wasn't at the wall when Jon died, so I think the show went in a different direction in how they brought Jon back than the book will.
After Jon receives a taunting letter, he notices that Melisandre is absent when he asks for volunteers in confronting Ramsay south at Winterfell. The Lord Commander is then stabbed by some of his own men in the mutiny at Castle Black
Absent from the volunteers, but I'm pretty sure she is at the Wall.It's been a long time since I read the books so I'm not sure of her location when he dies. But I remember thinking that she wasn't there when he died.I'm pretty sure she is there. In fact, I don't think she ever left.I know. That is what I was saying. No Targaryans have ever been resurrected to my knowledge. Why would him coming back make him a Targaryan?I don't think coming back will make him a Targaryan, I think what we will see next week at the tower of Joy will make it clear he's a Targaryan.
However, in the book, Melisandre wasn't at the wall when Jon died, so I think the show went in a different direction in how they brought Jon back than the book will.QuoteAfter Jon receives a taunting letter, he notices that Melisandre is absent when he asks for volunteers in confronting Ramsay south at Winterfell. The Lord Commander is then stabbed by some of his own men in the mutiny at Castle Black
This is in the chapter summary on the GoT Wiki
Jon Snow coming back was obvious to anyone but a blatant Dany supporter, whose support for her blinded them.I kind of expect her to be the last big shocking death.
Either could die, but if they do I expect it to be while riding a dragon battling the walkers. Lots of references to three dragons with three riders in the books and show.Jon Snow coming back was obvious to anyone but a blatant Dany supporter, whose support for her blinded them.I kind of expect her to be the last big shocking death.
Jon gonna get his family dragons and beat down some ice zombies on his way to the throne.
I find most theories fun to contemplate. Baby swaps, lineage, true identities. I don't get worked up in any I don't believe because what I do believe can easily be wrong.
If Jon dies, it's the end of the story. Imo, the entire thing is basically his heroes journey. Everyone else is secondary - including Dany. She exists to reintroduce dragons to the world. She's not essential to the end game.Either could die, but if they do I expect it to be while riding a dragon battling the walkers. Lots of references to three dragons with three riders in the books and show.Jon Snow coming back was obvious to anyone but a blatant Dany supporter, whose support for her blinded them.I kind of expect her to be the last big shocking death.
Jon gonna get his family dragons and beat down some ice zombies on his way to the throne.
If Jon dies, it's the end of the story. Imo, the entire thing is basically his heroes journey. Everyone else is secondary - including Dany. She exists to reintroduce dragons to the world. She's not essential to the end game.Either could die, but if they do I expect it to be while riding a dragon battling the walkers. Lots of references to three dragons with three riders in the books and show.Jon Snow coming back was obvious to anyone but a blatant Dany supporter, whose support for her blinded them.I kind of expect her to be the last big shocking death.
Jon gonna get his family dragons and beat down some ice zombies on his way to the throne.
Ive heard a bunch of theories that there will be 3 dragon riders. Jon Snow seems the obvious fit for 1 of them, Dany another and some think Tyrion or Bran would be the third. Dont hate the theory, but havent read past the first book so Ive got no idea if thats legit.If Jon dies, it's the end of the story. Imo, the entire thing is basically his heroes journey. Everyone else is secondary - including Dany. She exists to reintroduce dragons to the world. She's not essential to the end game.Either could die, but if they do I expect it to be while riding a dragon battling the walkers. Lots of references to three dragons with three riders in the books and show.Jon Snow coming back was obvious to anyone but a blatant Dany supporter, whose support for her blinded them.I kind of expect her to be the last big shocking death.
Jon gonna get his family dragons and beat down some ice zombies on his way to the throne.
yes, but I dont see it happening prior to the final battle. I could also see Jon Snow dying in that final battle in some sort of heroic effort.If Jon dies, it's the end of the story. Imo, the entire thing is basically his heroes journey. Everyone else is secondary - including Dany. She exists to reintroduce dragons to the world. She's not essential to the end game.Either could die, but if they do I expect it to be while riding a dragon battling the walkers. Lots of references to three dragons with three riders in the books and show.Jon Snow coming back was obvious to anyone but a blatant Dany supporter, whose support for her blinded them.I kind of expect her to be the last big shocking death.
Jon gonna get his family dragons and beat down some ice zombies on his way to the throne.
I agree. Jon's the Song of Ice and Fire incarnate. I was just thinking that Dany dying in the final battle would actually make a lot of sense.
Quote
I think Snow coming back like he did makes him less likely to be a Targaryan. There wasn't any fire involved. And even Danny didn't get resurrected though she is clearly at least Valaryan if not a Targaryan.
If you look at the people brought back in the books, Caitlynn Stark, Berric Dondarian, and Sandor Clegane (alluded to), none of them are Targaryan or even Valaryan. So why would Jon be? It is more likely Jon is the child of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne and there was a baby swap with the daughter of Lyanna and Rheagar since Danny couldn't possibly pass as a **** child of Ned and some commoner.
A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness...
QuoteQuote
I think Snow coming back like he did makes him less likely to be a Targaryan. There wasn't any fire involved. And even Danny didn't get resurrected though she is clearly at least Valaryan if not a Targaryan.
If you look at the people brought back in the books, Caitlynn Stark, Berric Dondarian, and Sandor Clegane (alluded to), none of them are Targaryan or even Valaryan. So why would Jon be? It is more likely Jon is the child of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne and there was a baby swap with the daughter of Lyanna and Rheagar since Danny couldn't possibly pass as a **** child of Ned and some commoner.
Brandon Stark died in King's Landing, well away from Ashara Dayne. Sir Barristan Del Selmy loved her. She was not at the Tower of Joy. She killed herself when Ned brought her brother's sword. But I would ask you this? Why in the books did Lyanna make Ned promise, if this were the case?
They also showed Lyanna last week, so would bet R+L= J will be confirmed. If so he is has the best claim to the Iron Throne. We shall see. Were Brandon his father, Jon have a strong claim to Winterfell. Would Ned, with his honor, not step aside for this matter. Probably more likely she fell in love with Ned, the man who killed her brother.
Recall the talk in the crypts in season 5. The Sons of the Harpy, the fourth episode in Season 5 of Game of Thrones
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jennaguillaume/littlefinger-knows?utm_term=.naKDn4p4yl#.gaJjNAOALm
More on the blue rose
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Blue_winter_roseQuoteA blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness...
With the Hints above and the wall, probably has nothing to do with Jon, though right? JK
They probably had this talk for a reason. Hint Hint.
QuoteQuote
I think Snow coming back like he did makes him less likely to be a Targaryan. There wasn't any fire involved. And even Danny didn't get resurrected though she is clearly at least Valaryan if not a Targaryan.
If you look at the people brought back in the books, Caitlynn Stark, Berric Dondarian, and Sandor Clegane (alluded to), none of them are Targaryan or even Valaryan. So why would Jon be? It is more likely Jon is the child of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne and there was a baby swap with the daughter of Lyanna and Rheagar since Danny couldn't possibly pass as a **** child of Ned and some commoner.
Brandon Stark died in King's Landing, well away from Ashara Dayne. Sir Barristan Del Selmy loved her. She was not at the Tower of Joy. She killed herself when Ned brought her brother's sword. But I would ask you this? Why in the books did Lyanna make Ned promise, if this were the case?
They also showed Lyanna last week, so would bet R+L= J will be confirmed. If so he is has the best claim to the Iron Throne. We shall see. Were Brandon his father, Jon have a strong claim to Winterfell. Would Ned, with his honor, not step aside for this matter. Probably more likely she fell in love with Ned, the man who killed her brother.
Recall the talk in the crypts in season 5. The Sons of the Harpy, the fourth episode in Season 5 of Game of Thrones
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jennaguillaume/littlefinger-knows?utm_term=.naKDn4p4yl#.gaJjNAOALm
More on the blue rose
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Blue_winter_roseQuoteA blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness...
With the Hints above and the wall, probably has nothing to do with Jon, though right? JK
They probably had this talk for a reason. Hint Hint.
Either Ned or Brandon probably slept with Ashara at the Harrenhall Tourney. But your assertion that Brandon died well away from Ashara is wrong. Ashara was the handmaiden of Elia Martel in King's landing whenBrandon was killed there by the mad King. The tv series might simplify it, but in the book I seriously doubt Jon Snow is the son of Lyanna and Rhygaer.
Lyanna made Ned promise to take care of her Targaryan baby. You know, the one with silver hair and purple eyes like Targaryan's have. Ned couldn't pass a silver haired girl off as his so he went way out of his way to take the baby to someone who could care for a Targaryan baby in a place where the Baratheons couldn't reach her, Dorne. You know the place that grows lemon trees Danny remembers from her youth.
If all three (Daenerys, Jon, and Tyrion) end up living at the end, which seems doubtful since Martin himself has said he would like it to be a bittersweet ending, then I think it would make sense for Daenerys to sit on the Iron Throne, Tyrion to be her Hand of the King, and Jon to be Warden of the North, including ruling over the wildlings south of the Wall. That'd finally lead to a stable kingdom with the North being in line with King's Landing in the South.makes too much sense, ha!
The tv series might simplify it, but in the book I seriously doubt Jon Snow is the son of Lyanna and Rhygaer.
Lyanna made Ned promise to take care of her Targaryan baby. You know, the one with silver hair and purple eyes like Targaryan's have. Ned couldn't pass a silver haired girl off as his so he went way out of his way to take the baby to someone who could care for a Targaryan baby in a place where the Baratheons couldn't reach her, Dorne. You know the place that grows lemon trees Danny remembers from her youth.
House Dayne's loyalty to House Targaryen during the War of the Usurper led to the deaths of some of its most famed members. Ser Arthur died at the tower of joy, killed by Lord Eddard Stark, who was possibly aided by Lord Howland Reed. Afterward, Eddard returned Dawn to Starfall.[9] Ashara had been a lady-in-waiting to Princess Elia Martell for a few years when she went back to Starfall for unknown reasons. Given Dawn and the news of her brothers death by Eddard, she threw herself into the Summer Sea from the Palestone Sword. Her body was never recovered. According to her sister, Lady Allyria, Ashara loved Eddard. Many believe her or the wet-nurse Wylla to be the mother of Eddard's Edited for profanity. Please do not do it again., Jon Snow
he'd still be a (child out of wedlock) though. So his claim would be debatableQuoteQuote
I think Snow coming back like he did makes him less likely to be a Targaryan. There wasn't any fire involved. And even Danny didn't get resurrected though she is clearly at least Valaryan if not a Targaryan.
If you look at the people brought back in the books, Caitlynn Stark, Berric Dondarian, and Sandor Clegane (alluded to), none of them are Targaryan or even Valaryan. So why would Jon be? It is more likely Jon is the child of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne and there was a baby swap with the daughter of Lyanna and Rheagar since Danny couldn't possibly pass as a **** child of Ned and some commoner.
Brandon Stark died in King's Landing, well away from Ashara Dayne. Sir Barristan Del Selmy loved her. She was not at the Tower of Joy. She killed herself when Ned brought her brother's sword. But I would ask you this? Why in the books did Lyanna make Ned promise, if this were the case?
They also showed Lyanna last week, so would bet R+L= J will be confirmed. If so he is has the best claim to the Iron Throne. We shall see. Were Brandon his father, Jon have a strong claim to Winterfell. Would Ned, with his honor, not step aside for this matter. Probably more likely she fell in love with Ned, the man who killed her brother.
Recall the talk in the crypts in season 5. “The Sons of the Harpy”, the fourth episode in Season 5 of Game of Thrones
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jennaguillaume/littlefinger-knows?utm_term=.naKDn4p4yl#.gaJjNAOALm
More on the blue rose
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Blue_winter_roseQuoteA blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness...
With the Hints above and the wall, probably has nothing to do with Jon, though right? JK
They probably had this talk for a reason. Hint Hint.
Man what a teaser at the tower. Fight changed only 2 kings guards? Excellent fight though. Also is it really shaggy dog? Or Umbers and Rickon plotting?
You could tell Arthur Dayne was a badass swordsman because he had two of em and twirled them around a lot.Lol like the hit man from king's landing that took over casters keep.
Umber were still loyal to house stark even on show till this meeting. Also House Manderly hasn't been focused on for their revenge plots. So Umbers who have been some what decently represented could fill that roll a sinister plot against the traders of the north. Also it could explain Umbers reason to not swear alligence they are not "Oooath Breakaaas" as the Greatjon last lord once yelled.Man what a teaser at the tower. Fight changed only 2 kings guards? Excellent fight though. Also is it really shaggy dog? Or Umbers and Rickon plotting?
Is there any kind of clues to them teaming up in the books?
I also thought that didn't look big enough to be his dire wolf.
Umber were still loyal to house stark even on show till this meeting. Also House Manderly hasn't been focused on for their revenge plots. So Umbers who have been some what decently represented could fill that roll a sinister plot against the traders of the north. Also it could explain Umbers reason to not swear alligence they are not "Oooath Breakaaas" as the Greatjon last lord once yelled.Man what a teaser at the tower. Fight changed only 2 kings guards? Excellent fight though. Also is it really shaggy dog? Or Umbers and Rickon plotting?
Is there any kind of clues to them teaming up in the books?
I also thought that didn't look big enough to be his dire wolf.
https://youtu.be/snYE3_GGVcU
I could very easily see the show going with Lyanna to make it easier for fans to understand. I think the books will probably go a different way. Either way, I can't wait to see Aurthur Dayne and how badass he is, if Aurthor really dies, because in the books Jojen just tells Bran Aurthor would have killed Ned if his father, Howland Reed, didn't save him. It doesn't say Howland killed Dayne. Otherwise not taking Aurthur's bones back to his family is really disrespectful.
Who is Jon Snows real mother? Martin reportedly asked Weiss and Benioff. They said that they had been pitching ideas for the TV series for five hours before the author dropped the big question. They said that after studying the books for so long, they made an educated guess. Luckily, they guessed right and they were allowed to produce the massively successful show.
because in the books Jojen just tells Bran Aurthor would have killed Ned if his father, Howland Reed, didn't save him. It doesn't say Howland killed Dayne. Otherwise not taking Aurthur's bones back to his family is really disrespectful.
He would have killed me but for Howland Reed.[3]
Eddard Stark
A Clash of Kings, Chapter 21, Bran III.
Man what a teaser at the tower. Fight changed only 2 kings guards? Excellent fight though. Also is it really shaggy dog? Or Umbers and Rickon plotting?
Is there any kind of clues to them teaming up in the books?
I also thought that didn't look big enough to be his dire wolf.
Man what a teaser at the tower. Fight changed only 2 kings guards? Excellent fight though. Also is it really shaggy dog? Or Umbers and Rickon plotting?
Is there any kind of clues to them teaming up in the books?
I also thought that didn't look big enough to be his dire wolf.
As far as I can recall there was nary a mention of Rickon after he separated in book one.
And yeh, that was kind of a tiny dire wolf head now that you mention it.
Umber were still loyal to house stark even on show till this meeting. Also House Manderly hasn't been focused on for their revenge plots. So Umbers who have been some what decently represented could fill that roll a sinister plot against the traders of the north. Also it could explain Umbers reason to not swear alligence they are not "Oooath Breakaaas" as the Greatjon last lord once yelled.Man what a teaser at the tower. Fight changed only 2 kings guards? Excellent fight though. Also is it really shaggy dog? Or Umbers and Rickon plotting?
Is there any kind of clues to them teaming up in the books?
I also thought that didn't look big enough to be his dire wolf.
https://youtu.be/snYE3_GGVcU
Interesting, and it does seem fairly compelling. It would also work with the show's version of Ramsay's character, because Rickon probably would've been killed on site by Ramsay, since he's a Stark.
Davos is sent to Skagos by Wyman Manderly because Rickon is supposedly there, but you never actually see Rickon or have confirmation he is there. If Davos brings Rickon to him, he will support Stannis. That is in book 5.Man what a teaser at the tower. Fight changed only 2 kings guards? Excellent fight though. Also is it really shaggy dog? Or Umbers and Rickon plotting?
Is there any kind of clues to them teaming up in the books?
I also thought that didn't look big enough to be his dire wolf.
As far as I can recall there was nary a mention of Rickon after he separated in book one.
And yeh, that was kind of a tiny dire wolf head now that you mention it.
Did you have to look that up, or did you just remember that? If you remembered it, that's impressive and you deserve a tp.Davos is sent to Skagos by Wyman Manderly because Rickon is supposedly there, but you never actually see Rickon or have confirmation he is there. If Davos brings Rickon to him, he will support Stannis. That is in book 5.Man what a teaser at the tower. Fight changed only 2 kings guards? Excellent fight though. Also is it really shaggy dog? Or Umbers and Rickon plotting?
Is there any kind of clues to them teaming up in the books?
I also thought that didn't look big enough to be his dire wolf.
As far as I can recall there was nary a mention of Rickon after he separated in book one.
And yeh, that was kind of a tiny dire wolf head now that you mention it.
I remembered Wyman sent Davos after Rickon, couldn't remember where, but did recall it wasn't the Umbers.Did you have to look that up, or did you just remember that? If you remembered it, that's impressive and you deserve a tp.Davos is sent to Skagos by Wyman Manderly because Rickon is supposedly there, but you never actually see Rickon or have confirmation he is there. If Davos brings Rickon to him, he will support Stannis. That is in book 5.Man what a teaser at the tower. Fight changed only 2 kings guards? Excellent fight though. Also is it really shaggy dog? Or Umbers and Rickon plotting?
Is there any kind of clues to them teaming up in the books?
I also thought that didn't look big enough to be his dire wolf.
As far as I can recall there was nary a mention of Rickon after he separated in book one.
And yeh, that was kind of a tiny dire wolf head now that you mention it.
Man what a teaser at the tower. Fight changed only 2 kings guards? Excellent fight though. Also is it really shaggy dog? Or Umbers and Rickon plotting?
Is there any kind of clues to them teaming up in the books?
My guess is riding North with LittlefingerMan what a teaser at the tower. Fight changed only 2 kings guards? Excellent fight though. Also is it really shaggy dog? Or Umbers and Rickon plotting?
Is there any kind of clues to them teaming up in the books?
In the books the Umbers have several lords killed at the Red Wedding, so there's 0 chance they'd be forgiving the Boltons any time soon. I don't believe they indicated that on the show, though. EDIT: And as Moranis notes Rickon's not with the Umbers in the books.
Speaking of Red Wedding absences, supposedly we're getting the Blackfish again this season? And Edmure Tully too. Wonder what they'll be doing with that, the Tullys are pretty much non-entities by this point.
Noticed that the theory is being said by a lot of fans though I didn't get it from anyone. I am guessing many think a like is all. Also believe that is a great credit to the show if it is the Manderly storyline. As they came up with an plot intro that was much greater than Manderly, a house more established in show and they still doing that actual north remembers plotline.Man what a teaser at the tower. Fight changed only 2 kings guards? Excellent fight though. Also is it really shaggy dog? Or Umbers and Rickon plotting?
Is there any kind of clues to them teaming up in the books?
I also thought that didn't look big enough to be his dire wolf.
As far as I can recall there was nary a mention of Rickon after he separated in book one.
And yeh, that was kind of a tiny dire wolf head now that you mention it.
Apparently this theory has caught on quite a bit since the episode last night, especially with the lack of kneeling from Umber.
http://time.com/4322837/game-of-thrones-rickon-stark-direwolf-death-conspiracy/
I find it funny how much both of the actors of Bran and Rickon, especially Rickon, have aged since last seeing them lol That's what happens when you use kid actors and go seasons without utilizing them!
Noticed that the theory is being said by a lot of fans though I didn't get it from anyone. I am guessing many think a like is all. Also believe that is a great credit to the show if it is the Manderly storyline. As they came up with an plot intro that was much greater than Manderly, a house more established in show and they still doing that actual north remembers plotline.Man what a teaser at the tower. Fight changed only 2 kings guards? Excellent fight though. Also is it really shaggy dog? Or Umbers and Rickon plotting?
Is there any kind of clues to them teaming up in the books?
I also thought that didn't look big enough to be his dire wolf.
As far as I can recall there was nary a mention of Rickon after he separated in book one.
And yeh, that was kind of a tiny dire wolf head now that you mention it.
Apparently this theory has caught on quite a bit since the episode last night, especially with the lack of kneeling from Umber.
http://time.com/4322837/game-of-thrones-rickon-stark-direwolf-death-conspiracy/
I find it funny how much both of the actors of Bran and Rickon, especially Rickon, have aged since last seeing them lol That's what happens when you use kid actors and go seasons without utilizing them!
2 questions guys. Could Dany go East and forget about the Iron throne? Someone needs to lead that front against the white walkers right? Or do you think white walkers won't advance that way due to asshai still standing in the way and the red waste + mountain forts there after?i think she continues to go east until she is in westeros
2 questions guys. Could Dany go East and forget about the Iron throne? Someone needs to lead that front against the white walkers right? Or do you think white walkers won't advance that way due to asshai still standing in the way and the red waste + mountain forts there after?
Quaithe is her name.thanks!
QuoteI could very easily see the show going with Lyanna to make it easier for fans to understand. I think the books will probably go a different way. Either way, I can't wait to see Aurthur Dayne and how badass he is, if Aurthor really dies, because in the books Jojen just tells Bran Aurthor would have killed Ned if his father, Howland Reed, didn't save him. It doesn't say Howland killed Dayne. Otherwise not taking Aurthur's bones back to his family is really disrespectful.
Still think it is Arthur Dayne's kid? Did not Arthur Dayne say our prince is in the tower last night, that confirms Jon is Rhaegar's son. I read the books and I think it is Jon, there is more evidence for it being Jon than otherwise.
I suggest you read this webpage, all from the books, which you wrongly assume some of us have not read. These are not fan theories they are parts of the book. Hints.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q4bzzo2807r2diz/RLJ%20Quotes%20(Version%204).pdf?dl=0
It is a theme that reoccurs in the books time and time again. Then I point out this, the producers had to guess who Jon's mother was for Martin to let them do the show.QuoteWho is Jon Snows real mother? Martin reportedly asked Weiss and Benioff. They said that they had been pitching ideas for the TV series for five hours before the author dropped the big question. They said that after studying the books for so long, they made an educated guess. Luckily, they guessed right and they were allowed to produce the massively successful show.
http://www.ibtimes.com/game-thrones-producers-correctly-guess-who-jon-snows-real-mother-2064983
You really think they are leading us towards this road, to make it simple? I think we know who they guessed because they are showing us in the show. The books are full of the hints, you missed.
Most people I know think it makes more sense this way. The only people who don't are those who support Dany because they thought she would be the one. There are three heads to the dragon. Dany and Jon are two, most think Tyrion is the third.Quotebecause in the books Jojen just tells Bran Aurthor would have killed Ned if his father, Howland Reed, didn't save him. It doesn't say Howland killed Dayne. Otherwise not taking Aurthur's bones back to his family is really disrespectful.
He did save him, not in an honorable sense. I will tell what any soldier will tell you, being honorable and chivalric, readd well in a book, but it can get you killed in a real fight. Ned stated in books that he would have died without Howland. The books state:Quote He would have killed me but for Howland Reed.[3]
Eddard Stark
A Clash of Kings, Chapter 21, Bran III.
I read it as the show directors did that Howland saved Ned's bacon in the fight. How did you take that qoute? It says a lot about you, who laud the books, yet seem to filter out what you do not like to suit your view.
Essos connects to the northern expanse by ice in the west past asshai when it's a great winter. There are supposed to be forts at mountain passes that are huge and like the wall meant to stop the walkers advance. It hasn't been brought up in the show yet.2 questions guys. Could Dany go East and forget about the Iron throne? Someone needs to lead that front against the white walkers right? Or do you think white walkers won't advance that way due to asshai still standing in the way and the red waste + mountain forts there after?
How do the white walkers get to Essos? They're from the northern parts of Westeros, and there's significant sea between even the closest points of the two continents. They can't swim there, and I haven't heard anything that they utilize ships. Perhaps in long, severe winters the sea freezes enough between The Fingers of Westeros and Bravos of Essos for them to walk across?
Very rarely does a television program induce legit goosebumps. I got some tonight when Sansa reunited with John. Such a long road to get any of the Starks back together. Really the most hopeful episode in seasons.
Very rarely does a television program induce legit goosebumps. I got some tonight when Sansa reunited with John. Such a long road to get any of the Starks back together. Really the most hopeful episode in seasons.
Because he has Stark features and was not born of an incestuous union.
Why doesn't he have the Targaryen look? Not all Targaryens look like Dany and Viserys. Targaryens have intermarried into Dornishmen and Martells. Rhaeger's other children were known to look like their mother, Elia Martell. In this case, Lyanna was a Stark. It has been mentioned that Jon and Arya resemble each other, and Arya is strikingly similar to Lyanna. Ned is said to share Lyanna's features. All the other Stark children resemble Cat. This is a source of a great deal of distress for Catelyn - that it is Jon, the ****, and not Robb or her other sons that look like Ned.
How can he be a Targaryen if he burnt his hand? Targaryens are not immune to fire. As mentioned in the previous episode, one Targaryen king died trying to drink wildfire. Many other known kings have perished in fire. Viserys burnt. Dany is an exception.
Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black, Patchface sang somewhere. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.
This is your place, Brother. This is your darkness." Her torch was the only light in the cavern. Her torch was the only light in the world. She turned to go.
"Stay with me," Jaime pleaded. "Don't leave me here alone." But they were leaving. "Don't leave me in the dark!" Something terrible lived down here. "Give me a sword, at least."
"I gave you a sword," Lord Tywin said.
It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand's breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back. Crouching, listening, Jaime moved in a circle, ready for anything that might come out of the darkness. The water flowed into his boots, ankle deep and bitterly cold. Beware the water, he told himself. There may be creatures living in it, hidden deeps..
- Brienne appears from the darkness, her hands bound in chains. She is also naked, and asks Jaime to undo her chains. When she asks, a sword appears. Both Brienne's sword and Jaime's are aflame. -
"The flames will burn so long as you live," he heard Cersei call. "When they die, so must you."
The Grey King is so named because his hair, beard, and eyes were grey as the winter sea, and at the end of his life even his skin had turned grey...
The Grey King brought fire to the earth by taunting the Storm God into setting a tree on fire with a thunderbolt.
According to legend, the men of Volantis and Valyria hung Garin in a golden cage and mocked him as he called upon Mother Rhoyne to destroy them. That very night, the waters rose and drowned the invaders of Chroyane.
...
From that day, the spirits of the fallen conquerors have said to have remained beneath the waters, they who were once the lords of fire. It is believed that their cold breath is still said to rise from the murk to make the fogs that infest the ruined city in the Sorrows, and their flesh is said to have turned as stony as their hearts. It is also believed by some that Garin rose from his watery grave and became the Shrouded Lord.
He dreamt of his lord father and the Shrouded Lord. He dreamt that they were one and the same, and when his father wrapped stone arms around him and bent to give him his grey kiss, he woke with his mouth dry and rusty with the taste of blood and his heart hammering in his chest.
In regards to Jon not having targaryan features, I found a post that sums it up:QuoteBecause he has Stark features and was not born of an incestuous union.
Why doesn't he have the Targaryen look? Not all Targaryens look like Dany and Viserys. Targaryens have intermarried into Dornishmen and Martells. Rhaeger's other children were known to look like their mother, Elia Martell. In this case, Lyanna was a Stark. It has been mentioned that Jon and Arya resemble each other, and Arya is strikingly similar to Lyanna. Ned is said to share Lyanna's features. All the other Stark children resemble Cat. This is a source of a great deal of distress for Catelyn - that it is Jon, the ****, and not Robb or her other sons that look like Ned.
How can he be a Targaryen if he burnt his hand? Targaryens are not immune to fire. As mentioned in the previous episode, one Targaryen king died trying to drink wildfire. Many other known kings have perished in fire. Viserys burnt. Dany is an exception.
Here's a whole list of targayans with different hair colors: https://m.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/29yiwa/spoilers_all_targaryens_without_silvergold/
The Baratheon thing was specific to them. The Black hair trait seemed to always beat out Lannister blonde.
My main problem with some of the theories expressed on the last few pages is that people pick and choose the evidence to support them, while at the same time disregard evidence to the contrary.So many of those details are book related and I basically operate under the assumption that if it doesn't exist in the tv show, I don't care. The thing with the L+R=J theory is that it was telegraphed right from the start of the show. The show took great pains to point out how Ned would never cheat on his wife. They had him say things that were suspicious like referring to Jon as "blood". They took great pains to establish mythos surrounding lyanna and rhegar in multiple seasons talking about their backstory and planting the seed of doubt that rhegar was the type to abduct and rape anyone. Then obviously this season they make it pretty clear she's pregnant in the tower. Everything in the show points to it.
Take the whole Azor Ahai thing, for example.
Melisandre thought Stannis was Azor Ahai reborn because her vision told her that the new AA was "born amidst salt and smoke", so she concluded he was born on Dragonstone. Who else was born on Dragonstone? Daenerys, the "Stormborn". Maester Aemon, a Targaryen himself, thought the prophecy was misinterpreted, and that AA was actually a woman.
But of course, Dany isn't the only one who was born on Dragonstone. Stannis daughter Shireen was born there, too, and Shireen even suffers from Greyscale, also known as Garin's curse, which, given the backstory around Garin, might play a role in the whole AA arc...
And "born amidst salt and smoke" might not even refer to Dragonstone, at all. You become a disciple of the drowned God from the Iron Isles by actually drowning, and being reborn again, which will often grant you prophetic abilities, as it happened to Patchface, for example. Who's to say that being born amidst salt and smoke doesn't actually mean to be "reborn" under the sea?
Here's one of Patchface's prophecies, who are among the most reliable prophecies in the entire seriesQuoteUnder the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black, Patchface sang somewhere. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.
Then there's the whole Nissa Nissa thing. In order to ignite his flaming sword Lightbringer, Azor Ahai had to drive his sword through his wife Nissa Nissa. Both Jon and Dany have quite a few themes in their respective story arcs, but love isn't one of them. Who could possibly be their Nissa Nissa if either of them really is AA reborn? In fact, there are only 2-3 characters still alive in the whole series who would qualify as being truly "in love". Jaime Lannister, Jorah Mormont and maybe Brienne.
Here's Jaime's dream he had while sleeping on a stump of a weirwood tree. You know, the trees of the Old Gods with faces on them, which Bran uses to see visions of the past.QuoteThis is your place, Brother. This is your darkness." Her torch was the only light in the cavern. Her torch was the only light in the world. She turned to go.
"Stay with me," Jaime pleaded. "Don't leave me here alone." But they were leaving. "Don't leave me in the dark!" Something terrible lived down here. "Give me a sword, at least."
"I gave you a sword," Lord Tywin said.
It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand's breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back. Crouching, listening, Jaime moved in a circle, ready for anything that might come out of the darkness. The water flowed into his boots, ankle deep and bitterly cold. Beware the water, he told himself. There may be creatures living in it, hidden deeps..
- Brienne appears from the darkness, her hands bound in chains. She is also naked, and asks Jaime to undo her chains. When she asks, a sword appears. Both Brienne's sword and Jaime's are aflame. -
"The flames will burn so long as you live," he heard Cersei call. "When they die, so must you."
Let's not forget about all the Gods. There are many different religions and deities in Westeros and Essos. The Seven, the Old Gods, the Lord of Light, the Drowned God and his eternal enemy, the Storm God, and the many-faced God, to name just the most prominent.
I don't remember exactly where it was mentioned in the books, but it is said that most of these names refer to the same few deities. The faith of the Seven is pretty much confirmed as a heresy. Among the Seven, for example, is one aspect known as "the Stranger", and I think it is in one of Arya's chapters where it is said that the Stranger is actually the many-faced God. In fact, presumably all seven are just aspects of the many-faced God, the God of death.
Now, why do I bring that up?
Because there's a very interesting story related to the Drowned God, the story of the Grey King.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Grey_KingQuoteThe Grey King is so named because his hair, beard, and eyes were grey as the winter sea, and at the end of his life even his skin had turned grey...
The Grey King brought fire to the earth by taunting the Storm God into setting a tree on fire with a thunderbolt.
Sounds a lot like Greyscale, doesn't it?
It is interesting because it is the only other dualistic religion in ASOIAF besides the religion of the Red God, R'hllor, and his enemy, the "Great Other", God of ice and death. Both religions are also shown to work miracles, and have themes in common, such as resurrection, prophetic visions or bringing fire to mankind. Keep in mind, Azor Ahai is the messiah of the Red God. He might very well also be the messiah of the Drowned God, much like the Grey King was.
So, I don't think it is far-fetched to assume Azor Ahai could suffer from Greyscale, too. Greyscale is also known as Garin's curse.QuoteAccording to legend, the men of Volantis and Valyria hung Garin in a golden cage and mocked him as he called upon Mother Rhoyne to destroy them. That very night, the waters rose and drowned the invaders of Chroyane.
...
From that day, the spirits of the fallen conquerors have said to have remained beneath the waters, they who were once the lords of fire. It is believed that their cold breath is still said to rise from the murk to make the fogs that infest the ruined city in the Sorrows, and their flesh is said to have turned as stony as their hearts. It is also believed by some that Garin rose from his watery grave and became the Shrouded Lord.
Now, without going too much into detail, you might remember that in ADWD, Tyrion fell into the Rhoyne, "blacked out", and then woke up on board of his ship again after a feverish dream.QuoteHe dreamt of his lord father and the Shrouded Lord. He dreamt that they were one and the same, and when his father wrapped stone arms around him and bent to give him his grey kiss, he woke with his mouth dry and rusty with the taste of blood and his heart hammering in his chest.
Greyscale doesn't show up immediately after contraction. It's specifically stated in the books that sometimes it takes years after the infection before the first symptoms appear. Depending on how much weight you give to certain passages in the books, there are several potential clues that Tyrion contracted Greyscale when he fell into the Rhoyne. Who's to say he didn't actually drown in that river when he "blacked out", but the Drowned God/Red God resurrected him and then left his "mark" upon him?
So, as far as I'm concerned, Tyrion could very well be another potential candidate to become Azor Ahai reborn.
No matter what, as you can see, there are many, many different theories out there who all have a certain degree of plausibility when it comes to Azor Ahai.
My main problem with some of the theories expressed on the last few pages is that people pick and choose the evidence to support them, while at the same time disregard evidence to the contrary.
Very rarely does a television program induce legit goosebumps. I got some tonight when Sansa reunited with John. Such a long road to get any of the Starks back together. Really the most hopeful episode in seasons.
Daenerys essentially single-handedly burned every Khal at the stake in the temple of Vaes Dothrak, ultimately claiming the entire Dothraki horde as her own - yet you got chills only when Sansa reunited with Jon?! :P
Seriously, though, how awesome was that scene? So now does she take her horde back to Mereen and the other slave cities and kill the masters? I know the show has diverged quite a bit from the Mereen/masters narrative, but does the Greyjoy story stay the same with Victarion coming to Mereen as Daenerys is there with the horde now? Does "dragonbinder" make an appearance?? So many questions.
Very rarely does a television program induce legit goosebumps. I got some tonight when Sansa reunited with John. Such a long road to get any of the Starks back together. Really the most hopeful episode in seasons.
Daenerys essentially single-handedly burned every Khal at the stake in the temple of Vaes Dothrak, ultimately claiming the entire Dothraki horde as her own - yet you got chills only when Sansa reunited with Jon?! :P
Seriously, though, how awesome was that scene? So now does she take her horde back to Mereen and the other slave cities and kill the masters? I know the show has diverged quite a bit from the Mereen/masters narrative, but does the Greyjoy story stay the same with Victarion coming to Mereen as Daenerys is there with the horde now? Does "dragonbinder" make an appearance?? So many questions.
Daenerys takes her horde and razes Astapor and Yunkai to the ground, ruining Tyrion's work but "solving" the problem. She heads to Westeros and becomes the series' main human antagonist as a new Mad King, but is ultimately stopped by Arya exploiting every GoT antagonist's main weakness - getting stabbed in the back.
In all seriousness I liked the scene but I think everyone saw Daenerys taking over the Dothraki coming. I just assumed it'd be Drogon dropping to save her and everyone respecting that she had the most badass "horse" out there.
Very rarely does a television program induce legit goosebumps. I got some tonight when Sansa reunited with John. Such a long road to get any of the Starks back together. Really the most hopeful episode in seasons.
Daenerys essentially single-handedly burned every Khal at the stake in the temple of Vaes Dothrak, ultimately claiming the entire Dothraki horde as her own - yet you got chills only when Sansa reunited with Jon?! :P
Seriously, though, how awesome was that scene? So now does she take her horde back to Mereen and the other slave cities and kill the masters? I know the show has diverged quite a bit from the Mereen/masters narrative, but does the Greyjoy story stay the same with Victarion coming to Mereen as Daenerys is there with the horde now? Does "dragonbinder" make an appearance?? So many questions.
Dany killing Tyrion would go a long way towards turning her heel.Very rarely does a television program induce legit goosebumps. I got some tonight when Sansa reunited with John. Such a long road to get any of the Starks back together. Really the most hopeful episode in seasons.
Daenerys essentially single-handedly burned every Khal at the stake in the temple of Vaes Dothrak, ultimately claiming the entire Dothraki horde as her own - yet you got chills only when Sansa reunited with Jon?! :P
Seriously, though, how awesome was that scene? So now does she take her horde back to Mereen and the other slave cities and kill the masters? I know the show has diverged quite a bit from the Mereen/masters narrative, but does the Greyjoy story stay the same with Victarion coming to Mereen as Daenerys is there with the horde now? Does "dragonbinder" make an appearance?? So many questions.
Daenerys takes her horde and razes Astapor and Yunkai to the ground, ruining Tyrion's work but "solving" the problem. She heads to Westeros and becomes the series' main human antagonist as a new Mad King, but is ultimately stopped by Arya exploiting every GoT antagonist's main weakness - getting stabbed in the back.
In all seriousness I liked the scene but I think everyone saw Daenerys taking over the Dothraki coming. I just assumed it'd be Drogon dropping to save her and everyone respecting that she had the most badass "horse" out there.
Same. I liked that they actually went this way with it.
I ultimately think Daenerys is going to take issue with Tyrion's tactics of the grace period. She's always been a little more emotional and ruthless than diplomatic. I'm interested to see how that plays out, though it's probably not going to matter now that she has the entire Dothraki horde at her back.
Dany killing Tyrion would go a long way towards turning her heel.Very rarely does a television program induce legit goosebumps. I got some tonight when Sansa reunited with John. Such a long road to get any of the Starks back together. Really the most hopeful episode in seasons.
Daenerys essentially single-handedly burned every Khal at the stake in the temple of Vaes Dothrak, ultimately claiming the entire Dothraki horde as her own - yet you got chills only when Sansa reunited with Jon?! :P
Seriously, though, how awesome was that scene? So now does she take her horde back to Mereen and the other slave cities and kill the masters? I know the show has diverged quite a bit from the Mereen/masters narrative, but does the Greyjoy story stay the same with Victarion coming to Mereen as Daenerys is there with the horde now? Does "dragonbinder" make an appearance?? So many questions.
Daenerys takes her horde and razes Astapor and Yunkai to the ground, ruining Tyrion's work but "solving" the problem. She heads to Westeros and becomes the series' main human antagonist as a new Mad King, but is ultimately stopped by Arya exploiting every GoT antagonist's main weakness - getting stabbed in the back.
In all seriousness I liked the scene but I think everyone saw Daenerys taking over the Dothraki coming. I just assumed it'd be Drogon dropping to save her and everyone respecting that she had the most badass "horse" out there.
Same. I liked that they actually went this way with it.
I ultimately think Daenerys is going to take issue with Tyrion's tactics of the grace period. She's always been a little more emotional and ruthless than diplomatic. I'm interested to see how that plays out, though it's probably not going to matter now that she has the entire Dothraki horde at her back.
Yeah i still think Dany is the last big "shocking" death the show can have. Of all of them, I'd be on Dany dying.Dany killing Tyrion would go a long way towards turning her heel.Very rarely does a television program induce legit goosebumps. I got some tonight when Sansa reunited with John. Such a long road to get any of the Starks back together. Really the most hopeful episode in seasons.
Daenerys essentially single-handedly burned every Khal at the stake in the temple of Vaes Dothrak, ultimately claiming the entire Dothraki horde as her own - yet you got chills only when Sansa reunited with Jon?! :P
Seriously, though, how awesome was that scene? So now does she take her horde back to Mereen and the other slave cities and kill the masters? I know the show has diverged quite a bit from the Mereen/masters narrative, but does the Greyjoy story stay the same with Victarion coming to Mereen as Daenerys is there with the horde now? Does "dragonbinder" make an appearance?? So many questions.
Daenerys takes her horde and razes Astapor and Yunkai to the ground, ruining Tyrion's work but "solving" the problem. She heads to Westeros and becomes the series' main human antagonist as a new Mad King, but is ultimately stopped by Arya exploiting every GoT antagonist's main weakness - getting stabbed in the back.
In all seriousness I liked the scene but I think everyone saw Daenerys taking over the Dothraki coming. I just assumed it'd be Drogon dropping to save her and everyone respecting that she had the most badass "horse" out there.
Same. I liked that they actually went this way with it.
I ultimately think Daenerys is going to take issue with Tyrion's tactics of the grace period. She's always been a little more emotional and ruthless than diplomatic. I'm interested to see how that plays out, though it's probably not going to matter now that she has the entire Dothraki horde at her back.
Eh, I think those two (plus Jon) are unkillable at the moment, especially one killing the other lol
So many of those details are book related and I basically operate under the assumption that if it doesn't exist in the tv show, I don't care. The thing with the L+R=J theory is that it was telegraphed right from the start of the show. The show took great pains to point out how Ned would never cheat on his wife. They had him say things that were suspicious like referring to Jon as "blood". They took great pains to establish mythos surrounding lyanna and rhegar in multiple seasons talking about their backstory and planting the seed of doubt that rhegar was the type to abduct and rape anyone. Then obviously this season they make it pretty clear she's pregnant in the tower. Everything in the show points to it.
I'm curious if they have ever actually said "Azor Ahai" in the show. Do they always just refer to the "prince who was promised"? My only frame of reference for it is the red woman thinking every guy she meets is the chosen one.
Azor Ahai is a common prophecy in the books. Recall what Marwyn the mage said about prophecy in Martin's books.
"a prophecy is like a treacherous woman....."
It is pretty clear the show's organizers know what is going to happen, and they have placed clues all through the show. I recently read on that claimed Dayne's sword, which was forged from a star and had his blood on it was the falling star that fulfills the prophecy.
EDIT: Oh yeah, and I LOOOOVE the theory than Daenerys will become the main (human) antagonist as the avatar of R'hllor, but I doubt the show has the guts to go through with it - fans would revolt.
But I'm curious: Why do you think the avatar of R'hllor will turn out to be the main antagonist? Not that I disagree, necessarily, but what makes you think R'hllor is the "evil" deity? After all, the series is called "A Song of Ice and Fire", and it's quasi established that R'hllor's opposing deity is the God of ice and death.
I want to see Winterfell taken and Ramsey dead.
Actually the more I think about it, the more it makes sense that it will happen. GRR Martin has already had "bad" characters (Jaimie Lannister for instance) make heroic turns. It's time for one to turn heel. She's freed lots of slaves, but butchered thousands of free men in the process and could leave a ton of death in her wake.
I don't think it'll be pure black and white, but the actions of R'hllor's worshipers seem to indicate A. R'hllor is real, or at minimum the Fire Priests have access to some seriously legit magic, and B. He's kind of a ****. Lot of burning innocent people alive to please him. And he seems closely linked to Dany what with her fire imagery and immunity.
On the flip side, the White Walkers seem to be closely linked to the "Other" god Melisandre won't name, and have gotten basically 0 non-pure evil characterization. It would be just like the overall narrative to have the god that appears to be on the side of the "good guys" turn out to be more evil than believed and the god that's only linked to the "bad guys" to be more complex and at least to some degree benevolent. That's my thinking anyway - no pure protagonist/antagonist, but good motives turn Daenaerys into a negative force and seemingly evil motives on the White Walker side turn out to be more positive in nature.
More importantly; why do her clothes burn but not her hair?
And apparently that was not a naked body double.
More importantly; why do her clothes burn but not her hair?her hair is part of her body, her clothes are not.
And apparently that was not a naked body double.
Arya is going to be sent a mission to kill a family member. Just my gut instinct. I suspect it might be Jon, who then kills her, and his sword glows confirming he is the chosen one.
that was my thinking as well. if she's impervious to fire then it would apply to all of her body.More importantly; why do her clothes burn but not her hair?her hair is part of her body, her clothes are not.
And apparently that was not a naked body double.
not a fan of that turn. would rather see Arya carry out her vengeance list. not much sense going after JonArya is going to be sent a mission to kill a family member. Just my gut instinct. I suspect it might be Jon, who then kills her, and his sword glows confirming he is the chosen one.
Oooh, I like that idea. TP
not a fan of that turn. would rather see Arya carry out her vengeance list. not much sense going after JonArya is going to be sent a mission to kill a family member. Just my gut instinct. I suspect it might be Jon, who then kills her, and his sword glows confirming he is the chosen one.
Oooh, I like that idea. TP
Listening to Simmons podcast he says he heard this upcoming episode is "an all timer". I know Chris Ryan and Andy greenwald watch the show before it airs, so I'm guessing her heard it from them. Can't wait to see it.
Hold the door! :'( :'( :'(Think so. Man that was messed up.
So do you reckon Hodor knew that moment was coming his whole life?
"All-Timer" was right. That was the best GoT episode ever, imo, better than Blackwater or the Red Wedding. Heck, that might've been the best TV moment I ever had. Just thinking about it gives me the chills.
I loved the episode halfway through. I thought it was a candidate for best episode 75% in, but that ending? God almighty. So many interesting developments in the different storylines, too.
I need a cigarette...
Wow. Just another incredible episode by GoT. This is by far my favorite season of the series, and we're only halfway through! So many things in that episode to talk about:assuming the Jon theory is true, which at this point I'd be shocked if it isn't, doesn't that just make them cousins?
First, what incredible storytelling with the Hodor narrative. Martin has had that in his head since the beginning, and even being a non-vital component of the overall story, that was just an incredible narrative with how it was set up and played out. However, the philosopher in me wants to poke holes in the story due to its reliance on the grandfather paradox, though I'm not sure how relevant logic/metaphysics is when we're also talking about flashbacks via "greensight" in wargs. :P
Second, this is the first mention of the Children creating the White Walkers from Man, isn't it? Talk about a backfire! I thought that was a very interesting part of the episode, because I was under the impression that the Children were fighting the Walkers long before the First Men even came over to Westeros.
Third, did anyone else catch yet another hint confirming R + L = J?? When Little Finger was leaving and said "HALF brother." Yeah, the "half" part wouldn't matter, that is unless the other half is also Targaryen.
So, yeah, what an excellent episode. There was also a recent fan theory that emerged after the Tower of Joy scene that theorized that Bran's meddling in the past actually caused most of the events emanating from the Mad King. You can read about it here: http://www.nme.com/blogs/nme-blogs/game-of-thrones-season-six-time-travel-paradox-theory
After this episode, that doesn't seem so crazy, huh? I'm really interested to see where they go with the Bran storyline from here on out. He was supposed to be the weapon to stop the White Walkers, but I'm not sure how that works out now. I'm guessing the time travel/flashback/manipulating the past stuff is going to play a role, because there's a reason that the Three-Eyed Raven took Bran there to see the Hodor stuff right before he was killed.
Though there is some contradictory stuff there. In the books, the Three-Eyed Raven told Bran, "The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it." But isn't that exactly what the Hodor situation was - the future influencing the past? It'll be interesting to see where this goes from here.
EDIT: So I just read something that the reason he was able to manipulate the past was because he was "greenseeing" while also "warged" into Hodor, which created some sort of connection that affected Hodor in the past where Bran was "greenseeing." My brain hurts lol
Hold the door! :'( :'( :'(
So do you reckon Hodor knew that moment was coming his whole life?
EDIT: So I just read something that the reason he was able to manipulate the past was because he was "greenseeing" while also "warged" into Hodor, which created some sort of connection that affected Hodor in the past where Bran was "greenseeing." My brain hurts lol
EDIT: So I just read something that the reason he was able to manipulate the past was because he was "greenseeing" while also "warged" into Hodor, which created some sort of connection that affected Hodor in the past where Bran was "greenseeing." My brain hurts lol
Yeah, explaining time-loop stuff is always eye-crossingly hard but my understanding is Bran warged into Hodor in the present while Bran's mind was also watching Hodor in the past. This kind of connected present and past Hodor's minds and the strength of the command + being linked to the moment of his own death basically fried his brain. That's why Raven guy kept him there for so long - Bran needed part of his consciousness in the past to create the present.
As much as it was a sad end for Hodor, it's also a pretty horrific thing to have done to the guy. Bran not only crossed a pretty dark line by controlling a human's mind, he also retroactively ruined his entire life. Unintentionally, but still. And all to hold a door for maybe like 2 minutes, meaning somebody else is still going to need to step up to keep Bran alive next episode (oh please please be Benjen...)
Wow. Just another incredible episode by GoT. This is by far my favorite season of the series, and we're only halfway through! So many things in that episode to talk about:assuming the Jon theory is true, which at this point I'd be shocked if it isn't, doesn't that just make them cousins?
First, what incredible storytelling with the Hodor narrative. Martin has had that in his head since the beginning, and even being a non-vital component of the overall story, that was just an incredible narrative with how it was set up and played out. However, the philosopher in me wants to poke holes in the story due to its reliance on the grandfather paradox, though I'm not sure how relevant logic/metaphysics is when we're also talking about flashbacks via "greensight" in wargs. :P
Second, this is the first mention of the Children creating the White Walkers from Man, isn't it? Talk about a backfire! I thought that was a very interesting part of the episode, because I was under the impression that the Children were fighting the Walkers long before the First Men even came over to Westeros.
Third, did anyone else catch yet another hint confirming R + L = J?? When Little Finger was leaving and said "HALF brother." Yeah, the "half" part wouldn't matter, that is unless the other half is also Targaryen.
So, yeah, what an excellent episode. There was also a recent fan theory that emerged after the Tower of Joy scene that theorized that Bran's meddling in the past actually caused most of the events emanating from the Mad King. You can read about it here: http://www.nme.com/blogs/nme-blogs/game-of-thrones-season-six-time-travel-paradox-theory
After this episode, that doesn't seem so crazy, huh? I'm really interested to see where they go with the Bran storyline from here on out. He was supposed to be the weapon to stop the White Walkers, but I'm not sure how that works out now. I'm guessing the time travel/flashback/manipulating the past stuff is going to play a role, because there's a reason that the Three-Eyed Raven took Bran there to see the Hodor stuff right before he was killed.
Though there is some contradictory stuff there. In the books, the Three-Eyed Raven told Bran, "The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it." But isn't that exactly what the Hodor situation was - the future influencing the past? It'll be interesting to see where this goes from here.
EDIT: So I just read something that the reason he was able to manipulate the past was because he was "greenseeing" while also "warged" into Hodor, which created some sort of connection that affected Hodor in the past where Bran was "greenseeing." My brain hurts lol
EDIT: So I just read something that the reason he was able to manipulate the past was because he was "greenseeing" while also "warged" into Hodor, which created some sort of connection that affected Hodor in the past where Bran was "greenseeing." My brain hurts lol
Yeah, explaining time-loop stuff is always eye-crossingly hard but my understanding is Bran warged into Hodor in the present while Bran's mind was also watching Hodor in the past. This kind of connected present and past Hodor's minds and the strength of the command + being linked to the moment of his own death basically fried his brain. That's why Raven guy kept him there for so long - Bran needed part of his consciousness in the past to create the present.
As much as it was a sad end for Hodor, it's also a pretty horrific thing to have done to the guy. Bran not only crossed a pretty dark line by controlling a human's mind, he also retroactively ruined his entire life. Unintentionally, but still. And all to hold a door for maybe like 2 minutes, meaning somebody else is still going to need to step up to keep Bran alive next episode (oh please please be Benjen...)
Yeah, I'm not really a fan of time-loop storylines. But after digesting it more and doing more research, I understand and appreciate this a little better. He's not really changing the past - he's causing the past. With his vision of the past, we have to essentially think of Bran as outside of time itself. So, yeah, this is obviously going to be a major storyline the rest of the way, and he's undoubtedly caused things to happen in the past that we will begin to learn about as the show goes on.
But, yeah, pretty much Hodor's entire life boiled down to serving Bran, with the main part being him holding the door for two minutes to allow him and Meera to escape. I'm still not a big fan of using the time-loop narrative tool here to cause/change events in the past, because I think just vision of the past to help Bran learn things would've sufficed for the story. However, it will be incredibly interesting to see where they go with Bran from here, e.g. is he really Bran the builder?
EDIT: So I just read something that the reason he was able to manipulate the past was because he was "greenseeing" while also "warged" into Hodor, which created some sort of connection that affected Hodor in the past where Bran was "greenseeing." My brain hurts lol
Yeah, explaining time-loop stuff is always eye-crossingly hard but my understanding is Bran warged into Hodor in the present while Bran's mind was also watching Hodor in the past. This kind of connected present and past Hodor's minds and the strength of the command + being linked to the moment of his own death basically fried his brain. That's why Raven guy kept him there for so long - Bran needed part of his consciousness in the past to create the present.
As much as it was a sad end for Hodor, it's also a pretty horrific thing to have done to the guy. Bran not only crossed a pretty dark line by controlling a human's mind, he also retroactively ruined his entire life. Unintentionally, but still. And all to hold a door for maybe like 2 minutes, meaning somebody else is still going to need to step up to keep Bran alive next episode (oh please please be Benjen...)
Yeah, I'm not really a fan of time-loop storylines. But after digesting it more and doing more research, I understand and appreciate this a little better. He's not really changing the past - he's causing the past. With his vision of the past, we have to essentially think of Bran as outside of time itself. So, yeah, this is obviously going to be a major storyline the rest of the way, and he's undoubtedly caused things to happen in the past that we will begin to learn about as the show goes on.
But, yeah, pretty much Hodor's entire life boiled down to serving Bran, with the main part being him holding the door for two minutes to allow him and Meera to escape. I'm still not a big fan of using the time-loop narrative tool here to cause/change events in the past, because I think just vision of the past to help Bran learn things would've sufficed for the story. However, it will be incredibly interesting to see where they go with Bran from here, e.g. is he really Bran the builder?
Yeah they seem to be going with the Lost-style "whatever happened, happened" approach. Bran didn't change the past because he had always fried Wyllis/Hodor's brain at that moment.
Of course that gets real deterministic in a hurry, but I take the Mystery Science Theater approach whenever I start thinking too much about it - repeat to myself "it's just a show, I should really just relax" :)
I'm not even sure Ashara has ever been mentioned on the TV show. I had to google to figure out who you were talking about. I'm not sure I'm following that theory, but it sounds completely convoluted. That's one great thing about being solely a watcher of the television show. They don't have time to invest in irrelevant details. Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna has been hinted at the entire show. THey have clearly been building towards it. Some whacky unnecessary theory where Dany was the daughter of L+R and there was some switcharoo makes little sense. It doesn't make a lick of difference if Dany is the daughter of the Mad king or the daughter of Rhaegar. There's no shock-factor there, because either way she's believed to be the last of the Targarayens.Wow. Just another incredible episode by GoT. This is by far my favorite season of the series, and we're only halfway through! So many things in that episode to talk about:assuming the Jon theory is true, which at this point I'd be shocked if it isn't, doesn't that just make them cousins?
First, what incredible storytelling with the Hodor narrative. Martin has had that in his head since the beginning, and even being a non-vital component of the overall story, that was just an incredible narrative with how it was set up and played out. However, the philosopher in me wants to poke holes in the story due to its reliance on the grandfather paradox, though I'm not sure how relevant logic/metaphysics is when we're also talking about flashbacks via "greensight" in wargs. :P
Second, this is the first mention of the Children creating the White Walkers from Man, isn't it? Talk about a backfire! I thought that was a very interesting part of the episode, because I was under the impression that the Children were fighting the Walkers long before the First Men even came over to Westeros.
Third, did anyone else catch yet another hint confirming R + L = J?? When Little Finger was leaving and said "HALF brother." Yeah, the "half" part wouldn't matter, that is unless the other half is also Targaryen.
So, yeah, what an excellent episode. There was also a recent fan theory that emerged after the Tower of Joy scene that theorized that Bran's meddling in the past actually caused most of the events emanating from the Mad King. You can read about it here: http://www.nme.com/blogs/nme-blogs/game-of-thrones-season-six-time-travel-paradox-theory
After this episode, that doesn't seem so crazy, huh? I'm really interested to see where they go with the Bran storyline from here on out. He was supposed to be the weapon to stop the White Walkers, but I'm not sure how that works out now. I'm guessing the time travel/flashback/manipulating the past stuff is going to play a role, because there's a reason that the Three-Eyed Raven took Bran there to see the Hodor stuff right before he was killed.
Though there is some contradictory stuff there. In the books, the Three-Eyed Raven told Bran, "The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it." But isn't that exactly what the Hodor situation was - the future influencing the past? It'll be interesting to see where this goes from here.
EDIT: So I just read something that the reason he was able to manipulate the past was because he was "greenseeing" while also "warged" into Hodor, which created some sort of connection that affected Hodor in the past where Bran was "greenseeing." My brain hurts lol
The only theory where they aren't cousins is if indeed Lyanna and Rheagar's child was Danny, and Ned switched the babies with Ashara and it is his and Ashara's baby and not Ashara's and Brandon's (that made sense in my mind if not in print.) So maybe Littlefinger knows something and is saying Jon IS Sansa's half-brother but more likely he was just putting Jon down noting he was a ****.
It could make sense that Ned felt such guilt at leaving the child he promised to protect with Ashara while he took his own **** or Brandon's back to Winterfell where he'd be safe. If he promised to protect Jon, isn't that what he did? Why is he feeling so guilty in the crypts at the sight of Lyanna and Brandon's statues? If he raised Jon to adulthood and nobody has found out, what does he have to feel guilty about? He kept his promise. He should be looking at Lyanna's statue and smiling, saying to himself or her bones, "I did it."
"All-Timer" was right. That was the best GoT episode ever, imo, better than Blackwater or the Red Wedding. Heck, that might've been the best TV moment I ever had. Just thinking about it gives me the chills.
I loved the episode halfway through. I thought it was a candidate for best episode 75% in, but that ending? God almighty. So many interesting developments in the different storylines, too.
I need a cigarette...
Eh, it was definitely a top-five or top-three episode of the series, but I still think Hardhome was a better episode. The fight with the White Walkers and Army of the Dead was awesome, especially Jon killing the White Walker and the Night's King turning all of the dead into wights.
Book Readers, let me ask you a question:
Are you enjoying this season more than previous seasons since most of the content hasn't already been covered in the books?
Episode was incredible. Hodor's origin and the King's origin with Leaf was amazing (and I think it goes deeper and he is Brandon Stark, not "the Builder" but rather a subsequent one who was Lord Commander). Sansa... very cool, although I think she is being foolish not to take the two armies and join them with Jon. The red priestess is HUGE, and makes total sense if you read World of Ice and Fire which details the long history between the "red" and the Valyrions.
But everyone got so distracted by Hodor in that scene that nobody has mentioned that Meera KILLED A WALKER. She used a spear just like the one Leaf threw, but Leaf's just bounced off. Who is the only other character we have seen kill a walker like that? Combine this with the fact that Meera's father is the same dude who saved Ned in the flashback fight earlier in the season when (I think we are all now convinced) Lyanna is giving birth in the tower. The theory floating around now, which is given ammo after this episode is that Meera is related to Jon, and perhaps in a Lucas-esque twist, is his twin. I know the ages don't appear to match, but remember, Jon is WAY younger than he looks.
Overall, as a book reader, to answer the previous question, I am loving the mystery that is back with this season.
One thing I think that's getting overlooked is the evolution (or perhaps lack thereof) of Arya. I think the bit when she watches the reenactment of her father's death all but confirms that she will never be a faceless man and always be a Stark.
Now my question is how she gets back to Westeos. Does she hook up with Dany and Tyrion? Do Yara and Theon end up in Braavos and does she hook up with them there? Something else?
One thing I think that's getting overlooked is the evolution (or perhaps lack thereof) of Arya. I think the bit when she watches the reenactment of her father's death all but confirms that she will never be a faceless man and always be a Stark.
Now my question is how she gets back to Westeos. Does she hook up with Dany and Tyrion? Do Yara and Theon end up in Braavos and does she hook up with them there? Something else?
One thing I think that's getting overlooked is the evolution (or perhaps lack thereof) of Arya. I think the bit when she watches the reenactment of her father's death all but confirms that she will never be a faceless man and always be a Stark.
Now my question is how she gets back to Westeos. Does she hook up with Dany and Tyrion? Do Yara and Theon end up in Braavos and does she hook up with them there? Something else?
The Hound!
Will the show have Lady Stoneheart running the Brotherhood without Banners now?
There was a lot of great stuff in this episode, but a couple things felt hacky. The Hound storyline really felt rushed. He's out chopping wood and bam - everyone's dead. And the Arya scene was a real head-scratcher. She would be more careful than that ... hopefully it's some kind of trickery, because on the surface it felt like weak directing.
Who saves Arya? Syrio Forell? The lead actress from that play?
I think she may take down the faceless men or become their leader and use it as a tool in the big game. She definitely will use those skills she has learned but I am not sure what those are exactly in the show. She has washed a lot of dead bodies, I suppose. I will tell you that in real life, she would die a slow and painful death from that wound without medical treatment.I can see this as Waif may have lost her way and Arya is meant to kill her. At the same time Arya is being tested. I wouldn't be surprised if Arya is healed by Jak while disguised and Waif is take down after.
I think she may take down the faceless men or become their leader and use it as a tool in the big game. She definitely will use those skills she has learned but I am not sure what those are exactly in the show. She has washed a lot of dead bodies, I suppose. I will tell you that in real life, she would die a slow and painful death from that wound without medical treatment.I can see this as Waif may have lost her way and Arya is meant to kill her. At the same time Arya is being tested. I wouldn't be surprised if Arya is healed by Jak while disguised and Waif is take down after.
Or Arya goes to the house of white and black to avoid the slow death you mentioned drinks the water and is healed instead of dying. Then she goes on a killing spree clearing the house and takes over.
Either way the faceless men are supposed to champion for the people. They are not a group for hire simply if you have the coin which the whole actress job implies. The group is supposed to bring death to end suffering either to the wicked spreading it or to the innocent suffering it as a mercy. Something big has to come from this part of the story.
Yes and we got the origin story of the order lightly told. Has to be for a reason to show the orders direction as not blindly killing as Waif seems to do. I believe in books the first faceless man was a slave and thus he was faceless and no one. The order killed the masters and founded the free cities yet that first faceless man first killed another slave as mercy to end suffering (the slave prayed for death). To further end suffering was the reason why the first faceless man then looked towards the masters after killing the slave. It's all about ending suffering through death. That was the orders way.I think she may take down the faceless men or become their leader and use it as a tool in the big game. She definitely will use those skills she has learned but I am not sure what those are exactly in the show. She has washed a lot of dead bodies, I suppose. I will tell you that in real life, she would die a slow and painful death from that wound without medical treatment.I can see this as Waif may have lost her way and Arya is meant to kill her. At the same time Arya is being tested. I wouldn't be surprised if Arya is healed by Jak while disguised and Waif is take down after.
Or Arya goes to the house of white and black to avoid the slow death you mentioned drinks the water and is healed instead of dying. Then she goes on a killing spree clearing the house and takes over.
Either way the faceless men are supposed to champion for the people. They are not a group for hire simply if you have the coin which the whole actress job implies. The group is supposed to bring death to end suffering either to the wicked spreading it or to the innocent suffering it as a mercy. Something big has to come from this part of the story.
Yea that kind of bothered me also. The books are very clear that it isn't really about the coin. It's about life for a life. Rich, poor, whatever. Good, evil, indifferent the many face good doesn't care, as long as a life is paid, a life is owed.
To be true to their roots Arya should bleed out and die. To many people are coming back or surviving what should have been sure death. Kind of getting to Hollywood I prefer the unpredictable.people don't die on the show without a purpose. If arya died, her entire storyline would be a waste of time as it does nothing to push the core story forward. She will live.
In the trailer for the next episode she is jumping long distances in Mereen, apparently not only does she live but she seems fine.To be true to their roots Arya should bleed out and die. To many people are coming back or surviving what should have been sure death. Kind of getting to Hollywood I prefer the unpredictable.people don't die on the show without a purpose. If arya died, her entire storyline would be a waste of time as it does nothing to push the core story forward. She will live.
Speaking about abilities that haven't shown up much John's warging and Rickon's green sight also have abilities that could be useful. Say John runs into Nimera a super pack joining Johns army would help his chances. Rickon's plan being green sighted?In the trailer for the next episode she is jumping long distances in Mereen, apparently not only does she live but she seems fine.To be true to their roots Arya should bleed out and die. To many people are coming back or surviving what should have been sure death. Kind of getting to Hollywood I prefer the unpredictable.people don't die on the show without a purpose. If arya died, her entire storyline would be a waste of time as it does nothing to push the core story forward. She will live.
If they pretend like she wasn't stabbed and don't address it I will be unhappy. My guess is that she is able to defeat the wait by warging (even though she hasn't done that on the show).
The Hound!
Will the show have Lady Stoneheart running the Brotherhood without Banners now?
I think i`ve read sometime ago (after the red wedding) quotes from Benioff and Weiss that they won`t use Lady Stoneheart.
I`d like to see them change their mind though.
The Hound!
Will the show have Lady Stoneheart running the Brotherhood without Banners now?
I think i`ve read sometime ago (after the red wedding) quotes from Benioff and Weiss that they won`t use Lady Stoneheart.
I`d like to see them change their mind though.
Is Lady Stoneheart Catelyn reincarnated?
I remember her joining up with some underground resistance force tirades the end of the last book.
To be true to their roots Arya should bleed out and die. To many people are coming back or surviving what should have been sure death. Kind of getting to Hollywood I prefer the unpredictable.people don't die on the show without a purpose. If arya died, her entire storyline would be a waste of time as it does nothing to push the core story forward. She will live.
Thats what I'm saying... Her guard wouldn't be down. So it was either really hacky directing or there's something more to that scene. I've seen three whacky theories so far.To be true to their roots Arya should bleed out and die. To many people are coming back or surviving what should have been sure death. Kind of getting to Hollywood I prefer the unpredictable.people don't die on the show without a purpose. If arya died, her entire storyline would be a waste of time as it does nothing to push the core story forward. She will live.
What I am most curious about is why her guard was so far down. She seemed to be prepared for the possibility of attack in the last episode, right? It seemed strange to be out in broad daylight knowing what she knows about the faceless men. Im really curious to see what happens, have any theories?
Oh there's another theory which basically seems to be that the first sword of Braavos, Syrio Forel and Jaquen are the same person. Syrio was originally training Arya in Water Dancing back in Season 1 and was thought dead... but could very well be the same person as Jaquen... and the whole thing might be part of her training as a Water Dancer.Thats what I'm saying... Her guard wouldn't be down. So it was either really hacky directing or there's something more to that scene. I've seen three whacky theories so far.To be true to their roots Arya should bleed out and die. To many people are coming back or surviving what should have been sure death. Kind of getting to Hollywood I prefer the unpredictable.people don't die on the show without a purpose. If arya died, her entire storyline would be a waste of time as it does nothing to push the core story forward. She will live.
What I am most curious about is why her guard was so far down. She seemed to be prepared for the possibility of attack in the last episode, right? It seemed strange to be out in broad daylight knowing what she knows about the faceless men. Im really curious to see what happens, have any theories?
1 - "Arya" was actually Jacen with aryas face. It was either a test of the Waif (he had told her to make it quick, but stabbing someone in the stomach to bleed out is slow and painful) or he was letting himself get killed, because he owed arya one final death. That seems dumb.
2 - Arya and the Waif are the same person and the entire thing is some fight club esque mind screw all part of arya's training to truly be "no one". Also seems kinda dumb.
3 - Arya knows she's in danger and the whole thing was all part of a trap she is setting for the waif. She specifically goes into town flaunting money in public to cause attention. Then, she stands out in the open just waiting to be stabbed. The theory goes, she knew how the waif would try to kill her so she strapped pigs blood pouches to her stomach (that's a stretch) and may have had assistance from the actress in staging it... Then, she leaves a trail of blood to lure the waif into an area where she can "Home Alone" her with various booby traps.
Lol. Should be interesting to see where it goes.
Oh there's another theory which basically seems to be that the first sword of Braavos, Syrio Forel and Jaquen are the same person. Syrio was originally training Arya in Water Dancing back in Season 1 and was thought dead... but could very well be the same person as Jaquen... and the whole thing might be part of her training as a Water Dancer.Thats what I'm saying... Her guard wouldn't be down. So it was either really hacky directing or there's something more to that scene. I've seen three whacky theories so far.To be true to their roots Arya should bleed out and die. To many people are coming back or surviving what should have been sure death. Kind of getting to Hollywood I prefer the unpredictable.people don't die on the show without a purpose. If arya died, her entire storyline would be a waste of time as it does nothing to push the core story forward. She will live.
What I am most curious about is why her guard was so far down. She seemed to be prepared for the possibility of attack in the last episode, right? It seemed strange to be out in broad daylight knowing what she knows about the faceless men. Im really curious to see what happens, have any theories?
1 - "Arya" was actually Jacen with aryas face. It was either a test of the Waif (he had told her to make it quick, but stabbing someone in the stomach to bleed out is slow and painful) or he was letting himself get killed, because he owed arya one final death. That seems dumb.
2 - Arya and the Waif are the same person and the entire thing is some fight club esque mind screw all part of arya's training to truly be "no one". Also seems kinda dumb.
3 - Arya knows she's in danger and the whole thing was all part of a trap she is setting for the waif. She specifically goes into town flaunting money in public to cause attention. Then, she stands out in the open just waiting to be stabbed. The theory goes, she knew how the waif would try to kill her so she strapped pigs blood pouches to her stomach (that's a stretch) and may have had assistance from the actress in staging it... Then, she leaves a trail of blood to lure the waif into an area where she can "Home Alone" her with various booby traps.
Lol. Should be interesting to see where it goes.
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4mt5t8/spoilers_everything_a_water_dancer_has_completed/
"Seeing the truth" and having mercy might be part of her training.
Oh there's another theory which basically seems to be that the first sword of Braavos, Syrio Forel and Jaquen are the same person. Syrio was originally training Arya in Water Dancing back in Season 1 and was thought dead... but could very well be the same person as Jaquen... and the whole thing might be part of her training as a Water Dancer.Thats what I'm saying... Her guard wouldn't be down. So it was either really hacky directing or there's something more to that scene. I've seen three whacky theories so far.To be true to their roots Arya should bleed out and die. To many people are coming back or surviving what should have been sure death. Kind of getting to Hollywood I prefer the unpredictable.people don't die on the show without a purpose. If arya died, her entire storyline would be a waste of time as it does nothing to push the core story forward. She will live.
What I am most curious about is why her guard was so far down. She seemed to be prepared for the possibility of attack in the last episode, right? It seemed strange to be out in broad daylight knowing what she knows about the faceless men. Im really curious to see what happens, have any theories?
1 - "Arya" was actually Jacen with aryas face. It was either a test of the Waif (he had told her to make it quick, but stabbing someone in the stomach to bleed out is slow and painful) or he was letting himself get killed, because he owed arya one final death. That seems dumb.
2 - Arya and the Waif are the same person and the entire thing is some fight club esque mind screw all part of arya's training to truly be "no one". Also seems kinda dumb.
3 - Arya knows she's in danger and the whole thing was all part of a trap she is setting for the waif. She specifically goes into town flaunting money in public to cause attention. Then, she stands out in the open just waiting to be stabbed. The theory goes, she knew how the waif would try to kill her so she strapped pigs blood pouches to her stomach (that's a stretch) and may have had assistance from the actress in staging it... Then, she leaves a trail of blood to lure the waif into an area where she can "Home Alone" her with various booby traps.
Lol. Should be interesting to see where it goes.
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4mt5t8/spoilers_everything_a_water_dancer_has_completed/
"Seeing the truth" and having mercy might be part of her training.
HA! I like that theory. Syrio did have this famous quote, too: "There is only one God, and his name is death. And what do we say to death? Not today!" That would be pretty cool if it was Jaqen the whole time.
http://moviepilot.com/posts/3955113?utm_source=fb-channel-fantasy-channel&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=brace-yourselves-game-of-thrones-fans-she-s-comingI had the Lady Stoneheart thing spoiled for me a couple years ago when I checked some Game of Thrones wiki and stumbled across it.
Here's an argument that suggests that Lady Stoneheart will appear toward the end of this season. With Thoros of Myr and Dondarrion supposedly already being credited to show up sometime in season 6, I think it's very possible that we end up seeing Lady Stoneheart in this whole Riverrun fiasco. And with Brienne going to be at Riverrun with Jamie, I could very well see Lady Stoneheart executing both of them as she leads the Brotherhood without Banners against the Lannisters/Freys to help the Blackfish.
I could actually see it being option 3. could have sworn Arya was moving towards the theater at the end. pretty evident with Arya out in the open up to the stabbing that she was going to be attacked. Looks too easy to have her attacked without having some followup either showing it was a ruse to fake death (which seems less likely with her roaming around again) or create a lure with her as a wounded animal type of target to be finished off (yet turn the tables on her attacker in a trap).Oh there's another theory which basically seems to be that the first sword of Braavos, Syrio Forel and Jaquen are the same person. Syrio was originally training Arya in Water Dancing back in Season 1 and was thought dead... but could very well be the same person as Jaquen... and the whole thing might be part of her training as a Water Dancer.Thats what I'm saying... Her guard wouldn't be down. So it was either really hacky directing or there's something more to that scene. I've seen three whacky theories so far.To be true to their roots Arya should bleed out and die. To many people are coming back or surviving what should have been sure death. Kind of getting to Hollywood I prefer the unpredictable.people don't die on the show without a purpose. If arya died, her entire storyline would be a waste of time as it does nothing to push the core story forward. She will live.
What I am most curious about is why her guard was so far down. She seemed to be prepared for the possibility of attack in the last episode, right? It seemed strange to be out in broad daylight knowing what she knows about the faceless men. Im really curious to see what happens, have any theories?
1 - "Arya" was actually Jacen with aryas face. It was either a test of the Waif (he had told her to make it quick, but stabbing someone in the stomach to bleed out is slow and painful) or he was letting himself get killed, because he owed arya one final death. That seems dumb.
2 - Arya and the Waif are the same person and the entire thing is some fight club esque mind screw all part of arya's training to truly be "no one". Also seems kinda dumb.
3 - Arya knows she's in danger and the whole thing was all part of a trap she is setting for the waif. She specifically goes into town flaunting money in public to cause attention. Then, she stands out in the open just waiting to be stabbed. The theory goes, she knew how the waif would try to kill her so she strapped pigs blood pouches to her stomach (that's a stretch) and may have had assistance from the actress in staging it... Then, she leaves a trail of blood to lure the waif into an area where she can "Home Alone" her with various booby traps.
Lol. Should be interesting to see where it goes.
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4mt5t8/spoilers_everything_a_water_dancer_has_completed/
"Seeing the truth" and having mercy might be part of her training.
HA! I like that theory. Syrio did have this famous quote, too: "There is only one God, and his name is death. And what do we say to death? Not today!" That would be pretty cool if it was Jaqen the whole time.
Here's a link explaining those theories, too. I could honestly see any one of them actually being the truth, though I'm guessing the split personality storyline is the truth. I think it would make the most sense with the way the show has been trending.
http://www.viralshack.com/fan-theories-about-arya-stark-might-explain-broken-man/2/
So, Daario tells Daenerys that she will need 1,000 ships to take her Dothraki horde across the Narrow sea.That was the basis of an entire theory about how Daario was Euron Greyjoy. I stumbled across that yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Crn_eg-1ekU
Meanwhile, Theon and Yara steal 1,000 ships from Euron at the Iron Islands and are headed to strike a deal with Daenerys in Mereen.
Both groups used the phrase "a thousand ships" specifically, so it seems likely that they will be attempting to team up once (if) they reach Mereen. That seems like a very odd grouping, though - the Greyjoys and Daenerys.
I'm also really interested to see where the Hound's story takes him. The guy said "the gods have kept you alive for a reason," which is obviously a pretty big hint in this franchise that he's going to have a pretty major role the rest of the way. The Brotherhood without Banners doesn't seem like a big enough storyline for him to be involved in. I'm guessing it will involve Arya, Brienne, or the Mountain.
So, Daario tells Daenerys that she will need 1,000 ships to take her Dothraki horde across the Narrow sea.That was the basis of an entire theory about how Daario was Euron Greyjoy. I stumbled across that yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Crn_eg-1ekU
Meanwhile, Theon and Yara steal 1,000 ships from Euron at the Iron Islands and are headed to strike a deal with Daenerys in Mereen.
Both groups used the phrase "a thousand ships" specifically, so it seems likely that they will be attempting to team up once (if) they reach Mereen. That seems like a very odd grouping, though - the Greyjoys and Daenerys.
I'm also really interested to see where the Hound's story takes him. The guy said "the gods have kept you alive for a reason," which is obviously a pretty big hint in this franchise that he's going to have a pretty major role the rest of the way. The Brotherhood without Banners doesn't seem like a big enough storyline for him to be involved in. I'm guessing it will involve Arya, Brienne, or the Mountain.
Obviously, that's out of the window now that they have shown Euron Greyjoy to be a totally different actor... but maybe it will be different in the books?
http://moviepilot.com/posts/3955113?utm_source=fb-channel-fantasy-channel&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=brace-yourselves-game-of-thrones-fans-she-s-comingI had the Lady Stoneheart thing spoiled for me a couple years ago when I checked some Game of Thrones wiki and stumbled across it.
Here's an argument that suggests that Lady Stoneheart will appear toward the end of this season. With Thoros of Myr and Dondarrion supposedly already being credited to show up sometime in season 6, I think it's very possible that we end up seeing Lady Stoneheart in this whole Riverrun fiasco. And with Brienne going to be at Riverrun with Jamie, I could very well see Lady Stoneheart executing both of them as she leads the Brotherhood without Banners against the Lannisters/Freys to help the Blackfish.
My guess is there's 4 main reasons they've avoided it in the show.
#1 - They didn't want to blow their resurrection wad early on a secondary character - they needed to maintain some semblance of "surprise" for Jon Snow's revival.
#2 - They probably aren't too keen on having a wonderful actress like Michelle Fairley return coated in zombie makeup with no voice. Though, I suppose they could do a book-to-show translation where the damage is less significant... kinda like how Tyrion is supposed to have no nose by now, but Dinklage just has a tiny scar.
#3 - From what I've heard, she's a relatively pointless side-character in the books that hasn't played a significant part in anything - yet. So maybe they just don't want to sidetrack the story with something that isn't essential and undermines the drama and impact of one of the most shocking moments of the entire show (the red wedding).
#4 - At some point, doesn't the constant resurrections just feel like a bit of a comicbook gimmick? Yeah, I get it that it's a story where the main antagonists are literally undead ice zombies, but having characters like John Snow, Benjen and Lady Stoneheart all return from the dead - at some point wouldn't you just be like, "Man, let's just go back, duct tape Eddard's head back on his body and get Sean Bean back". Maybe they want to avoid having too many resurrections.
The Hound!
Will the show have Lady Stoneheart running the Brotherhood without Banners now?
I think i`ve read sometime ago (after the red wedding) quotes from Benioff and Weiss that they won`t use Lady Stoneheart.
I`d like to see them change their mind though.
Is Lady Stoneheart Catelyn reincarnated?
I remember her joining up with some underground resistance force tirades the end of the last book.
Yes, Lady stonehart is Lady Stark.
Time is a bit weird in the books, so it could be possible, I just don't see it as likely. I mean if Daario is Euron, why would he send his brother with the ships and not just go himself?So, Daario tells Daenerys that she will need 1,000 ships to take her Dothraki horde across the Narrow sea.That was the basis of an entire theory about how Daario was Euron Greyjoy. I stumbled across that yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Crn_eg-1ekU
Meanwhile, Theon and Yara steal 1,000 ships from Euron at the Iron Islands and are headed to strike a deal with Daenerys in Mereen.
Both groups used the phrase "a thousand ships" specifically, so it seems likely that they will be attempting to team up once (if) they reach Mereen. That seems like a very odd grouping, though - the Greyjoys and Daenerys.
I'm also really interested to see where the Hound's story takes him. The guy said "the gods have kept you alive for a reason," which is obviously a pretty big hint in this franchise that he's going to have a pretty major role the rest of the way. The Brotherhood without Banners doesn't seem like a big enough storyline for him to be involved in. I'm guessing it will involve Arya, Brienne, or the Mountain.
Obviously, that's out of the window now that they have shown Euron Greyjoy to be a totally different actor... but maybe it will be different in the books?
Did Daario leave Daenerys in the books, though? Because Euron was already at the Iron Islands and sent Victarion (I believe) with the ships to Mereen. But I thought in the books Daario was still with Daenerys the whole time until she was taken away by Drogon, making it impossible that they're the same person.
So, Daario tells Daenerys that she will need 1,000 ships to take her Dothraki horde across the Narrow sea.That was the basis of an entire theory about how Daario was Euron Greyjoy. I stumbled across that yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Crn_eg-1ekU
Meanwhile, Theon and Yara steal 1,000 ships from Euron at the Iron Islands and are headed to strike a deal with Daenerys in Mereen.
Both groups used the phrase "a thousand ships" specifically, so it seems likely that they will be attempting to team up once (if) they reach Mereen. That seems like a very odd grouping, though - the Greyjoys and Daenerys.
I'm also really interested to see where the Hound's story takes him. The guy said "the gods have kept you alive for a reason," which is obviously a pretty big hint in this franchise that he's going to have a pretty major role the rest of the way. The Brotherhood without Banners doesn't seem like a big enough storyline for him to be involved in. I'm guessing it will involve Arya, Brienne, or the Mountain.
Obviously, that's out of the window now that they have shown Euron Greyjoy to be a totally different actor... but maybe it will be different in the books?
So, Daario tells Daenerys that she will need 1,000 ships to take her Dothraki horde across the Narrow sea.That was the basis of an entire theory about how Daario was Euron Greyjoy. I stumbled across that yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Crn_eg-1ekU
Meanwhile, Theon and Yara steal 1,000 ships from Euron at the Iron Islands and are headed to strike a deal with Daenerys in Mereen.
Both groups used the phrase "a thousand ships" specifically, so it seems likely that they will be attempting to team up once (if) they reach Mereen. That seems like a very odd grouping, though - the Greyjoys and Daenerys.
I'm also really interested to see where the Hound's story takes him. The guy said "the gods have kept you alive for a reason," which is obviously a pretty big hint in this franchise that he's going to have a pretty major role the rest of the way. The Brotherhood without Banners doesn't seem like a big enough storyline for him to be involved in. I'm guessing it will involve Arya, Brienne, or the Mountain.
Obviously, that's out of the window now that they have shown Euron Greyjoy to be a totally different actor... but maybe it will be different in the books?
I don't think this theory is correct BUT don't dismiss it because of different actors. If euron/Daario is a servant of the many faced God, a man can have many faces....
That said assuming the timing is the same euron can't be Dario and on the iron islands while Dario is with dany.
Better guess is that Dario is victarion who we just haven't met yet in the show.
I actually think there is a good chance Daario may be victarion and then something will have to give when theon and yara show up. Either they lie and fool Daario and kill him, or Daario hears they stole the ships and he kills them.
This one was good. I fan fiction a battle in the dark with Arya but didn't know it would be Waif. And I suppose she gave a name and spared a name so she should be free of pursuit. Overall good episode.
Oh anyone p---ed off that there won't be a Clegane bowl. I was mad as hell, lol. Good way to fire up some emotion from me though by writers.
And is the Spider meeting up with Iron Born rebels, Golden company, House Manderly, Jon, Dorne, or Euron? So many possibilities.
And last one, am I the only one who thinks kings landing is wildfired by Ceri in finale?
Anyone have any ideas about the rumor Cersei was talking about? I'm guessing it involves wildfire, which the Mad King had supposedly hidden all around King's Landing.gotta be wild fire
Though it also could have something to do with Varys coming back to Kings Landing, too, or Olenna's role in Joffrey's murder.
Anyone have any ideas about the rumor Cersei was talking about? I'm guessing it involves wildfire, which the Mad King had supposedly hidden all around King's Landing.gotta be wild fire
Though it also could have something to do with Varys coming back to Kings Landing, too, or Olenna's role in Joffrey's murder.
She'll be the new mad king (queen) and jaime will fulfill his destiny by killing her
i like itAnyone have any ideas about the rumor Cersei was talking about? I'm guessing it involves wildfire, which the Mad King had supposedly hidden all around King's Landing.gotta be wild fire
Though it also could have something to do with Varys coming back to Kings Landing, too, or Olenna's role in Joffrey's murder.
She'll be the new mad king (queen) and jaime will fulfill his destiny by killing her
I think specifically wildfire hidden under the Sept.
It would make sense to have that lite to end that threat to her and her son, but to have it go very bad. Burning out of control to where the red keep is also consumed. She survives but her son the king does not.
Anyone have any ideas about the rumor Cersei was talking about? I'm guessing it involves wildfire, which the Mad King had supposedly hidden all around King's Landing.gotta be wild fire
Though it also could have something to do with Varys coming back to Kings Landing, too, or Olenna's role in Joffrey's murder.
She'll be the new mad king (queen) and jaime will fulfill his destiny by killing her
I think specifically wildfire hidden under the Sept.
It would make sense to have that lite to end that threat to her and her son, but to have it go very bad. Burning out of control to where the red keep is also consumed. She survives but her son the king does not.
+1i like itAnyone have any ideas about the rumor Cersei was talking about? I'm guessing it involves wildfire, which the Mad King had supposedly hidden all around King's Landing.gotta be wild fire
Though it also could have something to do with Varys coming back to Kings Landing, too, or Olenna's role in Joffrey's murder.
She'll be the new mad king (queen) and jaime will fulfill his destiny by killing her
I think specifically wildfire hidden under the Sept.
It would make sense to have that lite to end that threat to her and her son, but to have it go very bad. Burning out of control to where the red keep is also consumed. She survives but her son the king does not.
I like it a lot
oh wouldn't that be the biggest bite in the ass for Cersei! Who becomes the successor at that point? No more Barathean kids left. Robert's out of brothers now too. Can only imagine the free-for-all that would result in the fight for the iron throne.Anyone have any ideas about the rumor Cersei was talking about? I'm guessing it involves wildfire, which the Mad King had supposedly hidden all around King's Landing.gotta be wild fire
Though it also could have something to do with Varys coming back to Kings Landing, too, or Olenna's role in Joffrey's murder.
She'll be the new mad king (queen) and jaime will fulfill his destiny by killing her
I think specifically wildfire hidden under the Sept.
It would make sense to have that lite to end that threat to her and her son, but to have it go very bad. Burning out of control to where the red keep is also consumed. She survives but her son the king does not.
I like it, too, because didn't the fortune teller that she visited when she was young that all three of her children will precede her in death? That's got to be it if it happens this season.
But then it's like bad news for Danearys, since there wouldn't be anything to really come back to.
Well i feel episode 9 should get a LOTR battle of the armies/ return of the king type tides of battle changes. Something like
Jon's army 2k+62 mormounts+1 giant=3k vs Boltons 5k
- Frey's joining Bolton's army.
1:2
- Manderly+houses of the north and Umbers (turn)joining Jon.
1:1
-Knights of the Vale joining the Boltons!
1:3
-Hound, Brienna and Brotherhood + super pack jump in.
1:2
-Tullies and Lannisters join Jon!
2:1
Jon wins.
absolutely. Littlefinger and Robin will retake the North for the Starks. And there is no way the Lannisters will join the Starks.QuoteWell i feel episode 9 should get a LOTR battle of the armies/ return of the king type tides of battle changes. Something like
Jon's army 2k+62 mormounts+1 giant=3k vs Boltons 5k
- Frey's joining Bolton's army.
1:2
- Manderly+houses of the north and Umbers (turn)joining Jon.
1:1
-Knights of the Vale joining the Boltons!
1:3
-Hound, Brienna and Brotherhood + super pack jump in.
1:2
-Tullies and Lannisters join Jon!
2:1
Jon wins.
After reading this I have to wonder if you watch the show sober. Knights of the Vale will fight for Sansa, I wager.
We've seen a lot of twists and turns but the Lannisters joinning the Starks againsts their allies the Boltons is a bit far fetchedThe twists have all been fairly predictable. That one is not.
Agreed on the twists this season being predictable. It makes me think that the book will be drastically different since Grrm doesn't really do predictable.We've seen a lot of twists and turns but the Lannisters joinning the Starks againsts their allies the Boltons is a bit far fetchedThe twists have all been fairly predictable. That one is not.
Bran's visions support this. A lot of the flashes involved the Mad King, wild fire, and a burned King's LandingAnyone have any ideas about the rumor Cersei was talking about? I'm guessing it involves wildfire, which the Mad King had supposedly hidden all around King's Landing.gotta be wild fire
Though it also could have something to do with Varys coming back to Kings Landing, too, or Olenna's role in Joffrey's murder.
She'll be the new mad king (queen) and jaime will fulfill his destiny by killing her
I think specifically wildfire hidden under the Sept.
It would make sense to have that lite to end that threat to her and her son, but to have it go very bad. Burning out of control to where the red keep is also consumed. She survives but her son the king does not.
They are predictable in the books as well. Once you realize who and what the story is about everything makes sense and pushes the story to that plot line. Everything has been moved to the ultimate end goal. Now sure there are parts where a number of things could happen and you don't know what will happen, for example Jon has to be in Winterfell to defeat the Walkers but it makes no difference if Stannis defeated the Boltons and gave Jon Winterfell or if Jon takes Winterfell from the Boltons (so who won the Stannis/Ramsey battle was unknown). At the end of the day, this is a story about Jon, Arya, Bran, Dany, and probably Sansa and Tyrion (I've gone both ways with them) and how they shape the Seven Kingdoms and defeat the White Walkers. They all may not make the conclusion of the series, but any of their deaths will serve that ultimate purpose. It is why no one believed Jon was actually dead and why no one believed Arya was going to die in Braavos. It is why no one believes Dany won't eventually leave Mereen and return to Westeros. All of the major twists and shocking scenes were all very predictable. Maybe not in their brutality or how they were carried out, but certainly all were predictable i.e. Ned was too rigid and black and white for the world he lived in, Robb disgraced people who always hated him and would turn on him in an instant, Joffry was just an evil terrible person, etc.Agreed on the twists this season being predictable. It makes me think that the book will be drastically different since Grrm doesn't really do predictable.We've seen a lot of twists and turns but the Lannisters joinning the Starks againsts their allies the Boltons is a bit far fetchedThe twists have all been fairly predictable. That one is not.
Personally, I expect the Knights of the vale to show up just as Jon is about to be defeated in order to save the day. I can't remember specific examples but I'm pretty sure allies showing up to save the day when all seems lost has happened a couple times already on the show.
Wildfire doesn't make sense as the rumor since those two had been talking about Wildfire since season 2. I'm guessing it is the rumors from the books about Queen Margaery.
EDIT: Not that I don't think wildfire will be around, just I don't see why Qyburn and Cersei would be talking about it like it was a rumor. That is the part that doesn't make sense.
actually I think it might help her if it got the King to turn on Margaery and back to his mother (and thus away from the Faith). Even if that doesn't happen it might direct attention away from her. I could certainly see that helping Cersei a great deal and it makes sense given the storyline in the book that hasn't really played out on the screen.Wildfire doesn't make sense as the rumor since those two had been talking about Wildfire since season 2. I'm guessing it is the rumors from the books about Queen Margaery.
EDIT: Not that I don't think wildfire will be around, just I don't see why Qyburn and Cersei would be talking about it like it was a rumor. That is the part that doesn't make sense.
Hidden stashes all around the city would qualify - whatever might be leftover from the Blackwater would be in the King's armory and far harder for her to acquire.
But the "little birds" are generally known for overhearing things, not investigating hidden locations. So I feel like it would be some kind of knowledge. Margaery sleeping with someone (I'm assuming that's the rumor you mean) wouldn't help - it wouldn't affect her trial, she can't blackmail Margaery because she doesn't control the trial. Something about the Higb Sparrow would qualify though. The show's forgotten about them but in theory there should still be two Sand Snakes in town too, but they hate Cersei so I can't imagine how it would help.
Bran's visions support this. A lot of the flashes involved the Mad King, wild fire, and a burned King's LandingAnyone have any ideas about the rumor Cersei was talking about? I'm guessing it involves wildfire, which the Mad King had supposedly hidden all around King's Landing.gotta be wild fire
Though it also could have something to do with Varys coming back to Kings Landing, too, or Olenna's role in Joffrey's murder.
She'll be the new mad king (queen) and jaime will fulfill his destiny by killing her
I think specifically wildfire hidden under the Sept.
It would make sense to have that lite to end that threat to her and her son, but to have it go very bad. Burning out of control to where the red keep is also consumed. She survives but her son the king does not.
Edit: And if she does kill Tomen and burns King's Landing that could be what prompts Jaime to fulfill the last bit of Cersei's prophecy.
They are predictable in the books as well. Once you realize who and what the story is about everything makes sense and pushes the story to that plot line. Everything has been moved to the ultimate end goal. Now sure there are parts where a number of things could happen and you don't know what will happen, for example Jon has to be in Winterfell to defeat the Walkers but it makes no difference if Stannis defeated the Boltons and gave Jon Winterfell or if Jon takes Winterfell from the Boltons (so who won the Stannis/Ramsey battle was unknown). At the end of the day, this is a story about Jon, Arya, Bran, Dany, and probably Sansa and Tyrion (I've gone both ways with them) and how they shape the Seven Kingdoms and defeat the White Walkers. They all may not make the conclusion of the series, but any of their deaths will serve that ultimate purpose. It is why no one believed Jon was actually dead and why no one believed Arya was going to die in Braavos. It is why no one believes Dany won't eventually leave Mereen and return to Westeros. All of the major twists and shocking scenes were all very predictable. Maybe not in their brutality or how they were carried out, but certainly all were predictable i.e. Ned was too rigid and black and white for the world he lived in, Robb disgraced people who always hated him and would turn on him in an instant, Joffry was just an evil terrible person, etc.Agreed on the twists this season being predictable. It makes me think that the book will be drastically different since Grrm doesn't really do predictable.We've seen a lot of twists and turns but the Lannisters joinning the Starks againsts their allies the Boltons is a bit far fetchedThe twists have all been fairly predictable. That one is not.
Personally, I expect the Knights of the vale to show up just as Jon is about to be defeated in order to save the day. I can't remember specific examples but I'm pretty sure allies showing up to save the day when all seems lost has happened a couple times already on the show.
How about a real blockbuster?Cersei already has assumed that, was the original motivation to get Margaery arrested. I don't think that's a game changer.
As in the Tyrell's part in the murder of Joffrey?
What's the rest of the prophecy? Jaime killing her or something?In the books she then says that the "Valyrian word for little brother" will crush her neck after her children are all dead. This is part of the reason she's always been suspicious/hateful towards Tyrion in the books
I really thought it was played up that they won't see each other again, because it seemed to be a rather overly emotional departure when he went to take down the Blackfish.
Cersei: Will the king and I have children?
Maggy: Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.
Valonqar is High Valyrian for "little brother". It is the word used by "Maggy", a maegi and fortune teller, in her prophecies to Cersei Lannister and Melara Hetherspoon.[1]Now this doesn't have to be Jaime or Tyrion. But given the state of Jaime and Cersei's relationship in the books its plausible. Lots of theories on it though.
Ned losing his head was fairly predictable. There were clues all throughout the book and the show. The shock was he was the main character in book 1, but his kids also were main characters as were the Lannisters. When Robert died, you knew this was a different kind of story and a man as rigid as Ned, just had no place in the world. He was warned countless times by people and he just didn't listen.They are predictable in the books as well. Once you realize who and what the story is about everything makes sense and pushes the story to that plot line. Everything has been moved to the ultimate end goal. Now sure there are parts where a number of things could happen and you don't know what will happen, for example Jon has to be in Winterfell to defeat the Walkers but it makes no difference if Stannis defeated the Boltons and gave Jon Winterfell or if Jon takes Winterfell from the Boltons (so who won the Stannis/Ramsey battle was unknown). At the end of the day, this is a story about Jon, Arya, Bran, Dany, and probably Sansa and Tyrion (I've gone both ways with them) and how they shape the Seven Kingdoms and defeat the White Walkers. They all may not make the conclusion of the series, but any of their deaths will serve that ultimate purpose. It is why no one believed Jon was actually dead and why no one believed Arya was going to die in Braavos. It is why no one believes Dany won't eventually leave Mereen and return to Westeros. All of the major twists and shocking scenes were all very predictable. Maybe not in their brutality or how they were carried out, but certainly all were predictable i.e. Ned was too rigid and black and white for the world he lived in, Robb disgraced people who always hated him and would turn on him in an instant, Joffry was just an evil terrible person, etc.Agreed on the twists this season being predictable. It makes me think that the book will be drastically different since Grrm doesn't really do predictable.We've seen a lot of twists and turns but the Lannisters joinning the Starks againsts their allies the Boltons is a bit far fetchedThe twists have all been fairly predictable. That one is not.
Personally, I expect the Knights of the vale to show up just as Jon is about to be defeated in order to save the day. I can't remember specific examples but I'm pretty sure allies showing up to save the day when all seems lost has happened a couple times already on the show.
That's easy to say when you watch the show and are on what is essentially book six of seven. It's much more ambiguous in the books.
The examples you've used were indeed predictable, but they weren't the big twists, either. Yeah, if you break everything down to it's most basic level, then everything looks the same. Pizza, Lasagne or a piece of wood, it's all carbs, right? Star Wars or Jesus, it's all "a hero's journey".
If you're really trying to tell me that Ned's beheading, the Red Wedding, the true origin of "the Kingslayer" or Jon's death at the end of book five etc. were predictable when you read that part for the first time, I call bull****.
Yes, for all his twists and turns, Martin does have to adhere to certain basic rules of storytelling, like everyone else. For example, you know that Arya still has a role to play, so you know she won't die in a random encounter. The thing is, you didn't know where the story was headed when you started reading the books, and you didn't know who the real protagonists were. The fact that you don't even know whether Tyrion is a protagonist or not is proof enough that it is indeed not predictable at all.
In a way, ASOIAF was defined by it's twists, so to turn people's expectations on their heads and let things play out in a more traditional way is unexpected in itself.
Man what a great one. What a top level battle. No unexpected twist though was surprised the writer's did not include any. Still S6/E9>Finals Game 7.
I was really hoping the Umber plot was going to happen. But I'm glad that the Knights of the Vale came and saved the day.
I was really hoping the Umber plot was going to happen. But I'm glad that the Knights of the Vale came and saved the day.
One of my least favorite things about the past 2 seasons is that every time it seems like there's some kind of subterfuge or secret plotting happening it never pans out and turns out everything was exactly as it seemed. The most egregious example was Doran Martell being exactly the clueless schmuck his enemies thought rather than having his own designs years in the making. The Umbers repeatedly refusing to pledge loyalty seems completely pointless now.
I did like the episode though. Cersei torching the place seems very likely given the pointed repetition of the Mad King's wildfire stash story.
Is anyone else eager to see how the dragons react to Jon Snow?
Dorne seems to just be there to ally with Danaerys when she comes over. But that whole plot line has been a horrible mess from the jump, so I'm not sorry to see it dropped for so long.
With Danaerys and King's Landing, I think the series has been building toward an endgame where the Iron Throne is completely moot. Torching the capital would be a big step toward that, and making the White Walkers seem completely unstoppable when they breach the wall.
except you don't know what all that scheming really gets him because it isn't concluded. What we do know, is that scheming led to the death of his son and the kidnapping of the Princess. Easy to see that Doran Martell really isn't as smart as he thought he was and it all backfire in a gigantic pile of flames (similar to Cersei Lannister) and rather then waste resources developing all this meaningless backstory they just kill him off.Dorne seems to just be there to ally with Danaerys when she comes over. But that whole plot line has been a horrible mess from the jump, so I'm not sorry to see it dropped for so long.
With Danaerys and King's Landing, I think the series has been building toward an endgame where the Iron Throne is completely moot. Torching the capital would be a big step toward that, and making the White Walkers seem completely unstoppable when they breach the wall.
Yea dorme has been a mess. They will probably study this specific story arc adaptation in film classes to see what not to do when adapting source material.
The show runners have done well in alot of the stories, but they have dropped the ball hard on dorne. In the books, dorme is this subtle plot that has been years in the making by Doran martell, and the show kills him in an instant. They took one of the best, subtle arcs in the book that's turning into a psunami, and stripped away everything that made it great.
To be true to their roots Arya should bleed out and die. To many people are coming back or surviving what should have been sure death. Kind of getting to Hollywood I prefer the unpredictable.people don't die on the show without a purpose. If arya died, her entire storyline would be a waste of time as it does nothing to push the core story forward. She will live.
I don't buy it.To be true to their roots Arya should bleed out and die. To many people are coming back or surviving what should have been sure death. Kind of getting to Hollywood I prefer the unpredictable.people don't die on the show without a purpose. If arya died, her entire storyline would be a waste of time as it does nothing to push the core story forward. She will live.
I read this interesting theory on Arya and the Waif on WIRED a few days ago:
http://www.wired.com/2016/06/crazy-game-thrones-theory-ill-bet-right/
Wondering what you think. Intriguing at least, right?
It's an interesting theory. I just feel like two big things are being overlooked:
1) The Arya storyline is too big for her to be dead. It's a complete fallacy that Game of Thrones kills off major characters. To be honest, it doesn't even trick us into thinking characters who die were really that big to begin with. It was heavily foreshadowed that Ned was too ethically pure to survive in King's Landing and Rob was never enough of a compelling character to ever be considered a main character. The whole Arya story arc has been about how she can't actually give up who she is. I think the far more likely scenario is that she's heading back to Westeros to kill Walder Frey and play a role in everything that will transpire after.
2) As for Jaqen, I agree that it's odd what he does. It could be lazy writing. It seems a lot of bit with the Waif may have been lazy story writing by the show's creators. However, if it's not that, could it be that Jaqen has realized that the Faceless Men have lost their way? They were supposed to be an order that took out evil people when they first started. Killing Lady Crane would have been about greed. Could it be that Jaqen now views Arya as ready to play the role she'll need to play in helping to save Westeros?
It still doesn't make sense that he said she's "no one," unless that just means that she's ready to fight. And that certainly wasn't the case when she first arrived in Braavos.
It's an interesting theory. I just feel like two big things are being overlooked:I thought he said that to her to see if she was ready to join the order. Her answer said she wasn't so he let her go since the Order got the life it needed (it was just the waif instead of Arya).
1) The Arya storyline is too big for her to be dead. It's a complete fallacy that Game of Thrones kills off major characters. To be honest, it doesn't even trick us into thinking characters who die were really that big to begin with. It was heavily foreshadowed that Ned was too ethically pure to survive in King's Landing and Rob was never enough of a compelling character to ever be considered a main character. The whole Arya story arc has been about how she can't actually give up who she is. I think the far more likely scenario is that she's heading back to Westeros to kill Walder Frey and play a role in everything that will transpire after.
2) As for Jaqen, I agree that it's odd what he does. It could be lazy writing. It seems a lot of bit with the Waif may have been lazy story writing by the show's creators. However, if it's not that, could it be that Jaqen has realized that the Faceless Men have lost their way? They were supposed to be an order that took out evil people when they first started. Killing Lady Crane would have been about greed. Could it be that Jaqen now views Arya as ready to play the role she'll need to play in helping to save Westeros?
It still doesn't make sense that he said she's "no one," unless that just means that she's ready to fight. And that certainly wasn't the case when she first arrived in Braavos.
This episode confirms for me that things will play out differently in the book. For example, Sansa hasn't even met Ramsay in the books, yet, and here she's watching him get eaten by his dogs. Just like Melisandre is still with Stannis at Winterfell, and not at the wall to resurrect Jon.I actually think they're cutting out most the filler that Martin put in there, sometimes in ways that is unsatisfying or taking short cuts for TV brevity.
I wouldn't call this season disappointing, it has been fun to watch, but it's obvious the writers have a hard time writing the series without the books. Many small things that make little to no sense for the books, and lots of filler is creeping into the series.
Bran was shown quickly in preview. Based on preview there will beMan what a great one.
Do you think we'll see any of Bran or the White Walkers next episode? It didn't show anything in the previews, but from what everyone thinks the Army of the Dead is going to reach the Wall or something - hence the "Winds of Winter" title with the book.
This episode confirms for me that things will play out differently in the book. For example, Sansa hasn't even met Ramsay in the books, yet, and here she's watching him get eaten by his dogs. Just like Melisandre is still with Stannis at Winterfell, and not at the wall to resurrect Jon.Melisandre is with Jon at the Wall. She never leaves with Stannis.
I wouldn't call this season disappointing, it has been fun to watch, but it's obvious the writers have a hard time writing the series without the books. Many small things that make little to no sense for the books, and lots of filler is creeping into the series.
Melisandre is with Jon at the Wall. She never leaves with Stannis.
Sansa will arrive with Littlefinger (or Harold) and the Knights to save Jon's army and they will be reunited at that time. Basically the same thing that happened except no Sansa ahead of time.
I was thinking it would be a great way to close the season with Bran and Arya arriving back at Winterfell to be reunited with Sansa and Jon. That would be a very powerful scene.
I can't believe it's the season finale already. What in the world are we going to do with NO basketball and NO Game of Thrones?! This is even more frustrating due to the fact that it seems the next two seasons will be much shorter than the rest, 7 and 6 episodes, respectively.
http://winteriscoming.net/2016/04/15/game-of-thrones-final-2-seasons-could-be-much-shorter-than-10-episodes/
So what are your predictions for the season finale? Here are mine:
1) Cersei is found guilty at her trial, and she uses Wildfire to burn down at least the Throne Room, if not the entire city.
2) R + L = J is confirmed. I think this either happens through a Bran flashback (most likely) OR by Littlefinger confirming this theory and legitimizing Jon as a true Stark and legitimate Warden of the North for Winterfell. Perhaps he uses Howland Reed (that's him, right?) for evidence of this?
3) The Walkers reach the wall, though I think that will be the cliffhanger for next season.
Speaking of Littlefinger, the Stark children HAVE to find out his role in Ned's murder by the time this thing ends, right? I'm guessing Sansa ends up killing him after finding out about his role in the Ned's death towards the end of the show.
What predictions do you have for tonight?
Throne room? Nah, I think she will burn the Sept.
I can't believe it's the season finale already. What in the world are we going to do with NO basketball and NO Game of Thrones?! This is even more frustrating due to the fact that it seems the next two seasons will be much shorter than the rest, 7 and 6 episodes, respectively.
http://winteriscoming.net/2016/04/15/game-of-thrones-final-2-seasons-could-be-much-shorter-than-10-episodes/
So what are your predictions for the season finale? Here are mine:
1) Cersei is found guilty at her trial, and she uses Wildfire to burn down at least the Throne Room, if not the entire city.
2) R + L = J is confirmed. I think this either happens through a Bran flashback (most likely) OR by Littlefinger confirming this theory and legitimizing Jon as a true Stark and legitimate Warden of the North for Winterfell. Perhaps he uses Howland Reed (that's him, right?) for evidence of this?
3) The Walkers reach the wall, though I think that will be the cliffhanger for next season.
Speaking of Littlefinger, the Stark children HAVE to find out his role in Ned's murder by the time this thing ends, right? I'm guessing Sansa ends up killing him after finding out about his role in the Ned's death towards the end of the show.
What predictions do you have for tonight?
1) That's a good prediction and will be fun to watch.
2). I don't think that will be confirmed tonight. I expect that to be dragged out much longer.
3). That sounds about right.
I think LF will continue on into late in the series. He will be fine for now and even a bigger player later on.
I'm really curious to how they handle Sansa. She repeatedly lied to Jon about the Knights of the Vale over the past few episodes. I can't figure out if they have written her character poorly or if her behavior is going to blow up into a major issue later and/or she is going to develop into a dislikable character similar to Cersei.
Daenarys will leave for Westeros with her fleet to end the show.
What's happening with Arya?
I'm going
Red woman banished to dragon stone.
R+L=J.
Cersei lights up half the city. Only half or less.
Little finger gets Sansa's hand.
White walkers fine true horn to take down wall.
Brotherhood catch Brienne.
Arya kills Walder Frey. Freys and Lannisters clash.
Dany and Euron sail/ prep ships. A sea battle coming season 7.
Varys meets with Dorne or Manderly house.
Sam is on the run.
My predictions, Jon will bury Rickon in the crypts and find something. Personally I'd hope it is the Sword of the Morning but possibly it will be a crypt for him with his parent's name on it.
Cersi will light up Baleor's temple and kill everyone in there, including Loras, Tommen and Margeory.
The Freys and Jamie have something going on and the Brotherhood without Banners are headed North. I'm thinking they capture Jaime gets captured by the BWB.
I doubt we see Brienne and Pod.
I doubt we see Arya.
The white walkers show up at the wall.
Brans shows us the rest of the Tower of Joy. Benjen takes Bran back to the wall.
Danny sets sail.
The horn of winter. There was a horn found with the buried dragon glass in the show. Ghost found it in the books but I can't remember who found it in the show. In the books since Ghost found it you think maybe the Chirldren of the Forest used him to find it and the obsidian weapons.
Mance says it will bring down the wall. History says it will "wake the giants." The giants it will wake are presumably not the Wun Wun type giants who are vegetarians and peaceful but some other kind of giants. Maybe Dragons, maybe just a different strain of giants. Maybe the giants are buried in the wall so both are right.
Mance is looking for it in Winterfell's crypts, which won't happen on the show because Mance is dead. The show seems to have forgotten about the horn but they have also left out Euron's horn Dragonbinder which is what wins him the King's Moot in the books.
R+L= J confirmed as if there was any doubt. The clues were in the books as well as on the show. Tonight there was a clue that Dany will seek an ally via marriage and that leaves what Jamie and Jon out of the major houses on the show.
Bran could tell him via dream or treespeak.
R+L= J confirmed as if there was any doubt. The clues were in the books as well as on the show. Tonight there was a clue that Dany will seek an ally via marriage and that leaves what Jamie and Jon out of the major houses on the show.
Bran could tell him via dream or treespeak.
My memory is hazy o this. Robert Barathion had a fling with Ned's sister but he was married to Cersei so she thought RB would have the baby killed. So Ned kept the baby and claimed it was his **** son to protect all involved?
R+L= J confirmed as if there was any doubt. The clues were in the books as well as on the show. Tonight there was a clue that Dany will seek an ally via marriage and that leaves what Jamie and Jon out of the major houses on the show.
Bran could tell him via dream or treespeak.
My memory is hazy o this. Robert Barathion had a fling with Ned's sister but he was married to Cersei so she thought RB would have the baby killed. So Ned kept the baby and claimed it was his **** son to protect all involved?
Are you talking about R + L = J? No, it's Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark equals Jon. Though everyone said he kidnapped her, raped her, and killed her, they were actually in love and absconded together, and she died during childbirth giving birth to Jon. Lyanna thought Robert would kill the baby since it was a Targaryen, since killing Targaryens was all the rage during Robert's Rebellion, so she had Ned swear to protect him and raise him as his own.
EDIT: Now practically speaking, I don't think it matters much now that he's been claimed as the "White Wolf" and new "King of the North," but I'm certain it'll be very, very important with the battle with the White Walkers being that he's both Fire and Ice.
I'm not going to lie, when Tommen killed himself, it gave me a bit of smile knowing that it would hurt Cersei. What a wretched woman. She's ultimately making herself just as much of a villain as the Army of the Dead and the White Walkers. That's going to be one hell of a cat fight next season between her and Daenerys! ;DI got a bunch of guesses right but man Tommen suicide was not on my radar. Bummed at that one. I think there will be 3 or 5 kingdoms in the end.
Also, Littlefinger is sketchy AF, huh? I thought his end goal was to marry Sansa and just be the Warden of the North, but he actually is trying to sit on the Iron Throne. He's also not psyched about Jon's new promotion to King of the North, so that's an interesting plot line for next season.
So the prophecy is almost complete, and the little brother is going to kill Cersei. It very well might be Jaime, because I think even he sees the danger of Queen Cersei.
And that was an excellent call by whoever it was to say that Varys would ally Dorne with Daenerys. I'm guessing there's no more "Seven Kingdoms" by the time this is all done.
I'm not going to lie, when Tommen killed himself, it gave me a bit of smile knowing that it would hurt Cersei. What a wretched woman. She's ultimately making herself just as much of a villain as the Army of the Dead and the White Walkers. That's going to be one hell of a cat fight next season between her and Daenerys! ;DI got a bunch of guesses right but man Tommen suicide was not on my radar. Bummed at that one. I think there will be 3 or 5 kingdoms in the end.
Also, Littlefinger is sketchy AF, huh? I thought his end goal was to marry Sansa and just be the Warden of the North, but he actually is trying to sit on the Iron Throne. He's also not psyched about Jon's new promotion to King of the North, so that's an interesting plot line for next season.
So the prophecy is almost complete, and the little brother is going to kill Cersei. It very well might be Jaime, because I think even he sees the danger of Queen Cersei.
And that was an excellent call by whoever it was to say that Varys would ally Dorne with Daenerys. I'm guessing there's no more "Seven Kingdoms" by the time this is all done.
Yup horn must be in play next season. And I thought Tommen was going to die in fire too. Suicide was so much worse. The kid was all heart till the end. A bard needs to write a song about that death.I'm not going to lie, when Tommen killed himself, it gave me a bit of smile knowing that it would hurt Cersei. What a wretched woman. She's ultimately making herself just as much of a villain as the Army of the Dead and the White Walkers. That's going to be one hell of a cat fight next season between her and Daenerys! ;DI got a bunch of guesses right but man Tommen suicide was not on my radar. Bummed at that one. I think there will be 3 or 5 kingdoms in the end.
Also, Littlefinger is sketchy AF, huh? I thought his end goal was to marry Sansa and just be the Warden of the North, but he actually is trying to sit on the Iron Throne. He's also not psyched about Jon's new promotion to King of the North, so that's an interesting plot line for next season.
So the prophecy is almost complete, and the little brother is going to kill Cersei. It very well might be Jaime, because I think even he sees the danger of Queen Cersei.
And that was an excellent call by whoever it was to say that Varys would ally Dorne with Daenerys. I'm guessing there's no more "Seven Kingdoms" by the time this is all done.
I thought Tommen would be caught up in the sept and die alongside all of the others, even though Cersei would try and get him out.
I am very surprised that the Walkers and Army of the Dead didn't show up at the wall. With Coldhands talking about the magic built into the wall, it may be setting up for them to use the horn of winter or whatever.
Yup horn must be in play next season. And I thought Tommen was going to die in fire too. Suicide was so much worse. The kid was all heart till the end. A bard needs to write a song about that death.I'm not going to lie, when Tommen killed himself, it gave me a bit of smile knowing that it would hurt Cersei. What a wretched woman. She's ultimately making herself just as much of a villain as the Army of the Dead and the White Walkers. That's going to be one hell of a cat fight next season between her and Daenerys! ;DI got a bunch of guesses right but man Tommen suicide was not on my radar. Bummed at that one. I think there will be 3 or 5 kingdoms in the end.
Also, Littlefinger is sketchy AF, huh? I thought his end goal was to marry Sansa and just be the Warden of the North, but he actually is trying to sit on the Iron Throne. He's also not psyched about Jon's new promotion to King of the North, so that's an interesting plot line for next season.
So the prophecy is almost complete, and the little brother is going to kill Cersei. It very well might be Jaime, because I think even he sees the danger of Queen Cersei.
And that was an excellent call by whoever it was to say that Varys would ally Dorne with Daenerys. I'm guessing there's no more "Seven Kingdoms" by the time this is all done.
I thought Tommen would be caught up in the sept and die alongside all of the others, even though Cersei would try and get him out.
I am very surprised that the Walkers and Army of the Dead didn't show up at the wall. With Coldhands talking about the magic built into the wall, it may be setting up for them to use the horn of winter or whatever.
It will be one united kingdom at the end under one of the Targarayen rulers or maybe both, though I don't think both Jon and Dany live to the end.I'm not going to lie, when Tommen killed himself, it gave me a bit of smile knowing that it would hurt Cersei. What a wretched woman. She's ultimately making herself just as much of a villain as the Army of the Dead and the White Walkers. That's going to be one hell of a cat fight next season between her and Daenerys! ;DI got a bunch of guesses right but man Tommen suicide was not on my radar. Bummed at that one. I think there will be 3 or 5 kingdoms in the end.
Also, Littlefinger is sketchy AF, huh? I thought his end goal was to marry Sansa and just be the Warden of the North, but he actually is trying to sit on the Iron Throne. He's also not psyched about Jon's new promotion to King of the North, so that's an interesting plot line for next season.
So the prophecy is almost complete, and the little brother is going to kill Cersei. It very well might be Jaime, because I think even he sees the danger of Queen Cersei.
And that was an excellent call by whoever it was to say that Varys would ally Dorne with Daenerys. I'm guessing there's no more "Seven Kingdoms" by the time this is all done.
I'm not going to lie, when Tommen killed himself, it gave me a bit of smile knowing that it would hurt Cersei. What a wretched woman. She's ultimately making herself just as much of a villain as the Army of the Dead and the White Walkers. That's going to be one hell of a cat fight next season between her and Daenerys! ;DComparatively speaking, Cersei isn't that bad. She is simply repaying those that betrayed her and plotted against her. She loved her children and put their interests first. She was loyal to her father even though he treated her poorly.
I'm not going to lie, when Tommen killed himself, it gave me a bit of smile knowing that it would hurt Cersei. What a wretched woman. She's ultimately making herself just as much of a villain as the Army of the Dead and the White Walkers. That's going to be one hell of a cat fight next season between her and Daenerys! ;DComparatively speaking, Cersei isn't that bad. She is simply repaying those that betrayed her and plotted against her. She loved her children and put their interests first. She was loyal to her father even though he treated her poorly.
Yup horn must be in play next season. And I thought Tommen was going to die in fire too. Suicide was so much worse. The kid was all heart till the end. A bard needs to write a song about that death.I'm not going to lie, when Tommen killed himself, it gave me a bit of smile knowing that it would hurt Cersei. What a wretched woman. She's ultimately making herself just as much of a villain as the Army of the Dead and the White Walkers. That's going to be one hell of a cat fight next season between her and Daenerys! ;DI got a bunch of guesses right but man Tommen suicide was not on my radar. Bummed at that one. I think there will be 3 or 5 kingdoms in the end.
Also, Littlefinger is sketchy AF, huh? I thought his end goal was to marry Sansa and just be the Warden of the North, but he actually is trying to sit on the Iron Throne. He's also not psyched about Jon's new promotion to King of the North, so that's an interesting plot line for next season.
So the prophecy is almost complete, and the little brother is going to kill Cersei. It very well might be Jaime, because I think even he sees the danger of Queen Cersei.
And that was an excellent call by whoever it was to say that Varys would ally Dorne with Daenerys. I'm guessing there's no more "Seven Kingdoms" by the time this is all done.
I thought Tommen would be caught up in the sept and die alongside all of the others, even though Cersei would try and get him out.
I am very surprised that the Walkers and Army of the Dead didn't show up at the wall. With Coldhands talking about the magic built into the wall, it may be setting up for them to use the horn of winter or whatever.
I think the Arya/Walder Frey part could have been done a little better. That's an issue that I've noticed with many of the season finales for this show. They always put a little too much in, so there's hardly any work up to some of the stories.
Wasn't the "eating of kin" scene some part of a legend as a consequence for violating guest rights or something? I vaguely remember a connection between the two.
Yup horn must be in play next season. And I thought Tommen was going to die in fire too. Suicide was so much worse. The kid was all heart till the end. A bard needs to write a song about that death.I'm not going to lie, when Tommen killed himself, it gave me a bit of smile knowing that it would hurt Cersei. What a wretched woman. She's ultimately making herself just as much of a villain as the Army of the Dead and the White Walkers. That's going to be one hell of a cat fight next season between her and Daenerys! ;DI got a bunch of guesses right but man Tommen suicide was not on my radar. Bummed at that one. I think there will be 3 or 5 kingdoms in the end.
Also, Littlefinger is sketchy AF, huh? I thought his end goal was to marry Sansa and just be the Warden of the North, but he actually is trying to sit on the Iron Throne. He's also not psyched about Jon's new promotion to King of the North, so that's an interesting plot line for next season.
So the prophecy is almost complete, and the little brother is going to kill Cersei. It very well might be Jaime, because I think even he sees the danger of Queen Cersei.
And that was an excellent call by whoever it was to say that Varys would ally Dorne with Daenerys. I'm guessing there's no more "Seven Kingdoms" by the time this is all done.
I thought Tommen would be caught up in the sept and die alongside all of the others, even though Cersei would try and get him out.
I am very surprised that the Walkers and Army of the Dead didn't show up at the wall. With Coldhands talking about the magic built into the wall, it may be setting up for them to use the horn of winter or whatever.
I think the Arya/Walder Frey part could have been done a little better. That's an issue that I've noticed with many of the season finales for this show. They always put a little too much in, so there's hardly any work up to some of the stories.
Wasn't the "eating of kin" scene some part of a legend as a consequence for violating guest rights or something? I vaguely remember a connection between the two.
It would've made sense to hold off on Arya killing the Freys for a while (how fast was her boat anyway?) but then they'd've had to pay the Frey actors for another season. They usually like to wrap up whatever they're doing with smaller characters in the same season. It definitely felt abrupt though it was nice to see them finally get theirs.
The Frey Pie thing was a direct reference to something similar done to some of the Freys in the books, as well as the legend of the Rat King than Bran told way back before the Red Wedding.
One of the more interesting trends that no one here seems to have mentioned is that women are taking over basically everywhere. It'll be interesting to see that dynamic play out. Too bad we never got to see any real conclusion to Margaery's plotting - she was one of the most interesting characters to me but she basically just got screwed over by the Sparrow then blown up.
I'm speaking about leadership over an area in the same way they still call it the seven kingdoms. It will be different after she is done.It will be one united kingdom at the end under one of the Targarayen rulers or maybe both, though I don't think both Jon and Dany live to the end.I'm not going to lie, when Tommen killed himself, it gave me a bit of smile knowing that it would hurt Cersei. What a wretched woman. She's ultimately making herself just as much of a villain as the Army of the Dead and the White Walkers. That's going to be one hell of a cat fight next season between her and Daenerys! ;DI got a bunch of guesses right but man Tommen suicide was not on my radar. Bummed at that one. I think there will be 3 or 5 kingdoms in the end.
Also, Littlefinger is sketchy AF, huh? I thought his end goal was to marry Sansa and just be the Warden of the North, but he actually is trying to sit on the Iron Throne. He's also not psyched about Jon's new promotion to King of the North, so that's an interesting plot line for next season.
So the prophecy is almost complete, and the little brother is going to kill Cersei. It very well might be Jaime, because I think even he sees the danger of Queen Cersei.
And that was an excellent call by whoever it was to say that Varys would ally Dorne with Daenerys. I'm guessing there's no more "Seven Kingdoms" by the time this is all done.
I don't think so. I think they will be all united under one leader and that leader will be a Targaryen i.e. Jon or Dany.I'm speaking about leadership over an area in the same way they still call it the seven kingdoms. It will be different after she is done.It will be one united kingdom at the end under one of the Targarayen rulers or maybe both, though I don't think both Jon and Dany live to the end.I'm not going to lie, when Tommen killed himself, it gave me a bit of smile knowing that it would hurt Cersei. What a wretched woman. She's ultimately making herself just as much of a villain as the Army of the Dead and the White Walkers. That's going to be one hell of a cat fight next season between her and Daenerys! ;DI got a bunch of guesses right but man Tommen suicide was not on my radar. Bummed at that one. I think there will be 3 or 5 kingdoms in the end.
Also, Littlefinger is sketchy AF, huh? I thought his end goal was to marry Sansa and just be the Warden of the North, but he actually is trying to sit on the Iron Throne. He's also not psyched about Jon's new promotion to King of the North, so that's an interesting plot line for next season.
So the prophecy is almost complete, and the little brother is going to kill Cersei. It very well might be Jaime, because I think even he sees the danger of Queen Cersei.
And that was an excellent call by whoever it was to say that Varys would ally Dorne with Daenerys. I'm guessing there's no more "Seven Kingdoms" by the time this is all done.
We already know that the recent westros had wardens, and a prince in dorne. Then we get Dany saying Iron Islands can have their independence if the stop reaving. Clearly it is very possible that there is a untied westros but separate regional responsible rulersI don't think so. I think they will be all united under one leader and that leader will be a Targaryen i.e. Jon or Dany.I'm speaking about leadership over an area in the same way they still call it the seven kingdoms. It will be different after she is done.It will be one united kingdom at the end under one of the Targarayen rulers or maybe both, though I don't think both Jon and Dany live to the end.I'm not going to lie, when Tommen killed himself, it gave me a bit of smile knowing that it would hurt Cersei. What a wretched woman. She's ultimately making herself just as much of a villain as the Army of the Dead and the White Walkers. That's going to be one hell of a cat fight next season between her and Daenerys! ;DI got a bunch of guesses right but man Tommen suicide was not on my radar. Bummed at that one. I think there will be 3 or 5 kingdoms in the end.
Also, Littlefinger is sketchy AF, huh? I thought his end goal was to marry Sansa and just be the Warden of the North, but he actually is trying to sit on the Iron Throne. He's also not psyched about Jon's new promotion to King of the North, so that's an interesting plot line for next season.
So the prophecy is almost complete, and the little brother is going to kill Cersei. It very well might be Jaime, because I think even he sees the danger of Queen Cersei.
And that was an excellent call by whoever it was to say that Varys would ally Dorne with Daenerys. I'm guessing there's no more "Seven Kingdoms" by the time this is all done.
Anything is possible, maybe Cersei ends on the Thrown, but I just don't see the kingdoms separating. I think they are all united under one ruler. Sure there will be Wardens and Separate rulers, but that is going to be much more like a Governor than a President. At the end of the day, I'd be surprised if the seven kingdoms weren't all being ruled by a Targaryen. I mean just look at them right nowWe already know that the recent westros had wardens, and a prince in dorne. Then we get Dany saying Iron Islands can have their independence if the stop reaving. Clearly it is very possible that there is a untied westros but separate regional responsible rulersI don't think so. I think they will be all united under one leader and that leader will be a Targaryen i.e. Jon or Dany.I'm speaking about leadership over an area in the same way they still call it the seven kingdoms. It will be different after she is done.It will be one united kingdom at the end under one of the Targarayen rulers or maybe both, though I don't think both Jon and Dany live to the end.I'm not going to lie, when Tommen killed himself, it gave me a bit of smile knowing that it would hurt Cersei. What a wretched woman. She's ultimately making herself just as much of a villain as the Army of the Dead and the White Walkers. That's going to be one hell of a cat fight next season between her and Daenerys! ;DI got a bunch of guesses right but man Tommen suicide was not on my radar. Bummed at that one. I think there will be 3 or 5 kingdoms in the end.
Also, Littlefinger is sketchy AF, huh? I thought his end goal was to marry Sansa and just be the Warden of the North, but he actually is trying to sit on the Iron Throne. He's also not psyched about Jon's new promotion to King of the North, so that's an interesting plot line for next season.
So the prophecy is almost complete, and the little brother is going to kill Cersei. It very well might be Jaime, because I think even he sees the danger of Queen Cersei.
And that was an excellent call by whoever it was to say that Varys would ally Dorne with Daenerys. I'm guessing there's no more "Seven Kingdoms" by the time this is all done.
It would've made sense to hold off on Arya killing the Freys for a while (how fast was her boat anyway?) but then they'd've had to pay the Frey actors for another season. They usually like to wrap up whatever they're doing with smaller characters in the same season. It definitely felt abrupt though it was nice to see them finally get theirs.It seems that in their effort to cram as much as they can in S6, Benioff and Weiss have completely and unapologetically warped the concepts of time and space.
It would've made sense to hold off on Arya killing the Freys for a while (how fast was her boat anyway?) but then they'd've had to pay the Frey actors for another season. They usually like to wrap up whatever they're doing with smaller characters in the same season. It definitely felt abrupt though it was nice to see them finally get theirs.It seems that in their effort to cram as much as they can in S6, Benioff and Weiss have completely and unapologetically warped the concepts of time and space.
Varys and Arya seem to teleport themselves between distant locations at will (and, seemingly, instantly). At the same time, Jamie is sitting at the Crossing, completely oblivious to the fact that the Warden of the North has been killed, and Jon Snow holds Winterfell. Meanwhile at said Winterfell, the entire North has materialized seemingly overnight. At the end of the day, we get the sense that a whole lot of stuff has happened, seemingly all in a couple of days.
Maybe this is great TV, but it is horrible storytelling.
It is apparent from the books that things don't happen chronologically. If they did you would go far too much time between certain characters and others would be focused on for large portions of time, which would make the show much more boring and strange.It would've made sense to hold off on Arya killing the Freys for a while (how fast was her boat anyway?) but then they'd've had to pay the Frey actors for another season. They usually like to wrap up whatever they're doing with smaller characters in the same season. It definitely felt abrupt though it was nice to see them finally get theirs.It seems that in their effort to cram as much as they can in S6, Benioff and Weiss have completely and unapologetically warped the concepts of time and space.
Varys and Arya seem to teleport themselves between distant locations at will (and, seemingly, instantly). At the same time, Jamie is sitting at the Crossing, completely oblivious to the fact that the Warden of the North has been killed, and Jon Snow holds Winterfell. Meanwhile at said Winterfell, the entire North has materialized seemingly overnight. At the end of the day, we get the sense that a whole lot of stuff has happened, seemingly all in a couple of days.
Maybe this is great TV, but it is horrible storytelling.
Maybe, but I didn't have this profound sense of time warp before S6. Maybe it's just me.It is apparent from the books that things don't happen chronologically. If they did you would go far too much time between certain characters and others would be focused on for large portions of time, which would make the show much more boring and strange.It would've made sense to hold off on Arya killing the Freys for a while (how fast was her boat anyway?) but then they'd've had to pay the Frey actors for another season. They usually like to wrap up whatever they're doing with smaller characters in the same season. It definitely felt abrupt though it was nice to see them finally get theirs.It seems that in their effort to cram as much as they can in S6, Benioff and Weiss have completely and unapologetically warped the concepts of time and space.
Varys and Arya seem to teleport themselves between distant locations at will (and, seemingly, instantly). At the same time, Jamie is sitting at the Crossing, completely oblivious to the fact that the Warden of the North has been killed, and Jon Snow holds Winterfell. Meanwhile at said Winterfell, the entire North has materialized seemingly overnight. At the end of the day, we get the sense that a whole lot of stuff has happened, seemingly all in a couple of days.
Maybe this is great TV, but it is horrible storytelling.
There are things before S6 where the timing is off as well, though there weren't as many storylines so it may be a bit more compounded here. And basically anything that happens across the sea has no timing connection to anything that happens in Westeros. So Arya's entire story line and even Dany really has no relation to the events in Westeros (other than when Westerosi show up across the sea).Maybe, but I didn't have this profound sense of time warp before S6. Maybe it's just me.It is apparent from the books that things don't happen chronologically. If they did you would go far too much time between certain characters and others would be focused on for large portions of time, which would make the show much more boring and strange.It would've made sense to hold off on Arya killing the Freys for a while (how fast was her boat anyway?) but then they'd've had to pay the Frey actors for another season. They usually like to wrap up whatever they're doing with smaller characters in the same season. It definitely felt abrupt though it was nice to see them finally get theirs.It seems that in their effort to cram as much as they can in S6, Benioff and Weiss have completely and unapologetically warped the concepts of time and space.
Varys and Arya seem to teleport themselves between distant locations at will (and, seemingly, instantly). At the same time, Jamie is sitting at the Crossing, completely oblivious to the fact that the Warden of the North has been killed, and Jon Snow holds Winterfell. Meanwhile at said Winterfell, the entire North has materialized seemingly overnight. At the end of the day, we get the sense that a whole lot of stuff has happened, seemingly all in a couple of days.
Maybe this is great TV, but it is horrible storytelling.
Also, perhaps we should take spoilers from the War of the Roses? That ended when a Lancaster noble married the heiress of the York family. So based on this, we should expect Tyrion and Sansa, eh?
For those who missed the background story, the Lannisters and the Starks were (kind of) modeled after Lancaster and York.
There are things before S6 where the timing is off as well, though there weren't as many storylines so it may be a bit more compounded here. And basically anything that happens across the sea has no timing connection to anything that happens in Westeros. So Arya's entire story line and even Dany really has no relation to the events in Westeros (other than when Westerosi show up across the sea).Even ignoring overseas, there are enough warps that made no sense. For example, Littlefinger's weird now I'm here - now I'm not appearances. How did the Freys not know that the Knights of the Vale were riding north? It's just all kind of odd.
The show has never gone strictly chronologically though, this isn't a new development.There are things before S6 where the timing is off as well, though there weren't as many storylines so it may be a bit more compounded here. And basically anything that happens across the sea has no timing connection to anything that happens in Westeros. So Arya's entire story line and even Dany really has no relation to the events in Westeros (other than when Westerosi show up across the sea).Even ignoring overseas, there are enough warps that made no sense. For example, Littlefinger's weird now I'm here - now I'm not appearances. How did the Freys not know that the Knights of the Vale were riding north? It's just all kind of odd.
In "After the Thrones" they brought up the small possibility that Jon is actually the son of the Mad King... he could have had his way with Lyanna at some point. Maybe that is what lead to Rheagar "abducting"/"taking her away" from King's Landing. More likely he's the son of Rheagar, though... they were prob in love and ran away together.If he was Mad King's Son that would weaken his claim. In Westros the line of succession follows the first son. So in Jon's case if Prince Rhaegar took a second wife and had a son and only that male surives from him that child would be first in line before Dany. Also since Jon is a pure Nobel that would cancel the not wed parents knock based on Roberts son Edric Storm in book. Renly and Stannis both mention Edric as a threat and hostage against the other. It's believed that if a male noble blooded from the 1st born son seeks succession it is valid if the first son has no other children and 1st son's siblings have no children. This is so the royal blood line continues. So Jon will have a strong claim against Dany.
A good question to ask though... was Jon legitimized before birth? Maybe Rheagar and Lyanna were wed? It probably doesn't matter, though given that people are already calling Jon a King.
Will Dany eventually get with her nephew/half-brother?
surprised slightly at Tommin's suicide as opposed to him dying in the explosion. Still not seeing how Cerce became the next in line to the throne --> she's not a Baratheon, only by marriage. didn't think that put her in line of succession.It doesn't, but the rules don't matter now power does.
Still not seeing how Cerce became the next in line to the throne --> she's not a Baratheon, only by marriage. didn't think that put her in line of succession.There are no trueborn Baratheon's left. Renly had no children and Stannis killed his before he died. The only persons left that have a stronger claim to the throne than the Lannister's are Jon, Dany, and Bran (and his claim is only slightly stronger than the Lannister's and everyone thinks he is dead anyway). The Targaryen blood line (which is how Robert took the throne) is all but eliminated except in ****s (such as Gendry - if he is even alive) and Edited for profanity. Please do not do it again.s don't take the throne (without force).
and that's who I thought might be next in line -- Jaime - since he's the oldest male Lannister of Cersei's generation. then again, it was pretty apparent that all that matters is power if you plan to take the throne.Still not seeing how Cerce became the next in line to the throne --> she's not a Baratheon, only by marriage. didn't think that put her in line of succession.There are no trueborn Baratheon's left. Renly had no children and Stannis killed his before he died. The only persons left that have a stronger claim to the throne than the Lannister's are Jon, Dany, and Bran (and his claim is only slightly stronger than the Lannister's and everyone thinks he is dead anyway). The Targaryen blood line (which is how Robert took the throne) is all but eliminated except in ****s (such as Gendry - if he is even alive) and ****s don't take the throne (without force).
Now technically since Jamie was no longer in the King's Guard, he would take the thrown before Cersei since he is the trueborn male heir (even though he is younger than Cersei), but that is a different sort of argument.
Of course none of that matters when you take the throne through force, which is exactly what Cersei did.
Another issue with the last episode I had that I just remembered was the whole Bran Tower of Joy flashback. Honestly, there didn't seem to be any set up with that, and there was no real reason for him to have that flashback, other than curiosity. It just seems that they could've set that up a little better where it wasn't so dang obvious that they were just trying to confirm R + L = J.I think you are right about Bran not being set up. But I think that discovery is to setup season 7. We are suppose to focus on how Bran will use that knowledge.
In "After the Thrones" they brought up the small possibility that Jon is actually the son of the Mad King... he could have had his way with Lyanna at some point. Maybe that is what lead to Rheagar "abducting"/"taking her away" from King's Landing. More likely he's the son of Rheagar, though... they were prob in love and ran away together.If he was Mad King's Son that would weaken his claim. In Westros the line of succession follows the first son. So in Jon's case if Prince Rhaegar took a second wife and had a son and only that male surives from him that child would be first in line before Dany. Also since Jon is a pure Nobel that would cancel the not wed parents knock based on Roberts son Edric Storm in book. Renly and Stannis both mention Edric as a threat and hostage against the other. It's believed that if a male noble blooded from the 1st born son seeks succession it is valid if the first son has no other children and 1st son's siblings have no children. This is so the royal blood line continues. So Jon will have a strong claim against Dany.
A good question to ask though... was Jon legitimized before birth? Maybe Rheagar and Lyanna were wed? It probably doesn't matter, though given that people are already calling Jon a King.
Will Dany eventually get with her nephew/half-brother?
Now technically since Jamie was no longer in the King's Guard, he would take the thrown before Cersei since he is the trueborn male heir (even though he is younger than Cersei), but that is a different sort of argument.That depends on whether Westeros has or doesn't have male-preference primogeniture tradition :P
they doNow technically since Jamie was no longer in the King's Guard, he would take the thrown before Cersei since he is the trueborn male heir (even though he is younger than Cersei), but that is a different sort of argument.That depends on whether Westeros has or doesn't have male-preference primogeniture tradition :P
I'm still betting on King Tyrion and Queen Sansa :P Come on, just three people need to die for this to happen -- and there's a prophecy out on one of them already.In "After the Thrones" they brought up the small possibility that Jon is actually the son of the Mad King... he could have had his way with Lyanna at some point. Maybe that is what lead to Rheagar "abducting"/"taking her away" from King's Landing. More likely he's the son of Rheagar, though... they were prob in love and ran away together.If he was Mad King's Son that would weaken his claim. In Westros the line of succession follows the first son. So in Jon's case if Prince Rhaegar took a second wife and had a son and only that male surives from him that child would be first in line before Dany. Also since Jon is a pure Nobel that would cancel the not wed parents knock based on Roberts son Edric Storm in book. Renly and Stannis both mention Edric as a threat and hostage against the other. It's believed that if a male noble blooded from the 1st born son seeks succession it is valid if the first son has no other children and 1st son's siblings have no children. This is so the royal blood line continues. So Jon will have a strong claim against Dany.
A good question to ask though... was Jon legitimized before birth? Maybe Rheagar and Lyanna were wed? It probably doesn't matter, though given that people are already calling Jon a King.
Will Dany eventually get with her nephew/half-brother?
Benioff and Weiss basically confirmed Rhaegar as dad on the Making of Game of Thrones blog.
Also, Dany has the much stronger claim since she has a gigantic army and dragons. That's probably going to be the support she needs. Jon is concerned with protecting the realm and will bend the knee...Sansa...maybe not so much.
Dany's claim is weaker, but her power is greater.In "After the Thrones" they brought up the small possibility that Jon is actually the son of the Mad King... he could have had his way with Lyanna at some point. Maybe that is what lead to Rheagar "abducting"/"taking her away" from King's Landing. More likely he's the son of Rheagar, though... they were prob in love and ran away together.If he was Mad King's Son that would weaken his claim. In Westros the line of succession follows the first son. So in Jon's case if Prince Rhaegar took a second wife and had a son and only that male surives from him that child would be first in line before Dany. Also since Jon is a pure Nobel that would cancel the not wed parents knock based on Roberts son Edric Storm in book. Renly and Stannis both mention Edric as a threat and hostage against the other. It's believed that if a male noble blooded from the 1st born son seeks succession it is valid if the first son has no other children and 1st son's siblings have no children. This is so the royal blood line continues. So Jon will have a strong claim against Dany.
A good question to ask though... was Jon legitimized before birth? Maybe Rheagar and Lyanna were wed? It probably doesn't matter, though given that people are already calling Jon a King.
Will Dany eventually get with her nephew/half-brother?
Benioff and Weiss basically confirmed Rhaegar as dad on the Making of Game of Thrones blog.
Also, Dany has the much stronger claim since she has a gigantic army and dragons. That's probably going to be the support she needs. Jon is concerned with protecting the realm and will bend the knee...Sansa...maybe not so much.
Dany's claim is weaker, but her power is greater.In "After the Thrones" they brought up the small possibility that Jon is actually the son of the Mad King... he could have had his way with Lyanna at some point. Maybe that is what lead to Rheagar "abducting"/"taking her away" from King's Landing. More likely he's the son of Rheagar, though... they were prob in love and ran away together.If he was Mad King's Son that would weaken his claim. In Westros the line of succession follows the first son. So in Jon's case if Prince Rhaegar took a second wife and had a son and only that male surives from him that child would be first in line before Dany. Also since Jon is a pure Nobel that would cancel the not wed parents knock based on Roberts son Edric Storm in book. Renly and Stannis both mention Edric as a threat and hostage against the other. It's believed that if a male noble blooded from the 1st born son seeks succession it is valid if the first son has no other children and 1st son's siblings have no children. This is so the royal blood line continues. So Jon will have a strong claim against Dany.
A good question to ask though... was Jon legitimized before birth? Maybe Rheagar and Lyanna were wed? It probably doesn't matter, though given that people are already calling Jon a King.
Will Dany eventually get with her nephew/half-brother?
Benioff and Weiss basically confirmed Rhaegar as dad on the Making of Game of Thrones blog.
Also, Dany has the much stronger claim since she has a gigantic army and dragons. That's probably going to be the support she needs. Jon is concerned with protecting the realm and will bend the knee...Sansa...maybe not so much.
I don't think Sansa has any real desire to be the ruler. Married to the ruler, probably, but actually the ruler I don't think so. I also think she would be fine living in Winterfell.
And the thing about Littlefinger and the Vale, is he isn't Lord of the Vale, that would be Sansa Cousin Robin. Littlefinger has custody of him, though did send him to live elsewhere, and Littlefinger was made Lord of Harrenhal, which he then used that title to marry Lysa Arryn (Tully), but his power is more from scheming than actual power or earned power. I can't see a scenario where Littlefinger ends up on the throne because no one would really follow him in that way. He isn't from a noble family or noble birth, he doesn't have the love and support of his men, and he really doesn't have an army (the Knights of the Vale aren't his army). I certainly could see him ending up Lord of a major house and maybe even a Warden of a region, but he will never sit on the Throne. He just doesn't have the power or support for that, even if he marries Sansa Stark. It just won't happen.
Asha Greyjoy + Tyrion is more likely maybe you get King of the Iron and gold Western lands? That is an actualy theory going around in some fan circles that Asha and Tyrion hook up will happen not the whole king thing just the couple.I'm still betting on King Tyrion and Queen Sansa :P Come on, just three people need to die for this to happen -- and there's a prophecy out on one of them already.In "After the Thrones" they brought up the small possibility that Jon is actually the son of the Mad King... he could have had his way with Lyanna at some point. Maybe that is what lead to Rheagar "abducting"/"taking her away" from King's Landing. More likely he's the son of Rheagar, though... they were prob in love and ran away together.If he was Mad King's Son that would weaken his claim. In Westros the line of succession follows the first son. So in Jon's case if Prince Rhaegar took a second wife and had a son and only that male surives from him that child would be first in line before Dany. Also since Jon is a pure Nobel that would cancel the not wed parents knock based on Roberts son Edric Storm in book. Renly and Stannis both mention Edric as a threat and hostage against the other. It's believed that if a male noble blooded from the 1st born son seeks succession it is valid if the first son has no other children and 1st son's siblings have no children. This is so the royal blood line continues. So Jon will have a strong claim against Dany.
A good question to ask though... was Jon legitimized before birth? Maybe Rheagar and Lyanna were wed? It probably doesn't matter, though given that people are already calling Jon a King.
Will Dany eventually get with her nephew/half-brother?
Benioff and Weiss basically confirmed Rhaegar as dad on the Making of Game of Thrones blog.
Also, Dany has the much stronger claim since she has a gigantic army and dragons. That's probably going to be the support she needs. Jon is concerned with protecting the realm and will bend the knee...Sansa...maybe not so much.
I thought Yara liked girls.Asha Greyjoy + Tyrion is more likely maybe you get King of the Iron and gold Western lands? That is an actualy theory going around in some fan circles that Asha and Tyrion hook up will happen not the whole king thing just the couple.I'm still betting on King Tyrion and Queen Sansa :P Come on, just three people need to die for this to happen -- and there's a prophecy out on one of them already.In "After the Thrones" they brought up the small possibility that Jon is actually the son of the Mad King... he could have had his way with Lyanna at some point. Maybe that is what lead to Rheagar "abducting"/"taking her away" from King's Landing. More likely he's the son of Rheagar, though... they were prob in love and ran away together.If he was Mad King's Son that would weaken his claim. In Westros the line of succession follows the first son. So in Jon's case if Prince Rhaegar took a second wife and had a son and only that male surives from him that child would be first in line before Dany. Also since Jon is a pure Nobel that would cancel the not wed parents knock based on Roberts son Edric Storm in book. Renly and Stannis both mention Edric as a threat and hostage against the other. It's believed that if a male noble blooded from the 1st born son seeks succession it is valid if the first son has no other children and 1st son's siblings have no children. This is so the royal blood line continues. So Jon will have a strong claim against Dany.
A good question to ask though... was Jon legitimized before birth? Maybe Rheagar and Lyanna were wed? It probably doesn't matter, though given that people are already calling Jon a King.
Will Dany eventually get with her nephew/half-brother?
Benioff and Weiss basically confirmed Rhaegar as dad on the Making of Game of Thrones blog.
Also, Dany has the much stronger claim since she has a gigantic army and dragons. That's probably going to be the support she needs. Jon is concerned with protecting the realm and will bend the knee...Sansa...maybe not so much.
She likes action.I thought Yara liked girls.Asha Greyjoy + Tyrion is more likely maybe you get King of the Iron and gold Western lands? That is an actualy theory going around in some fan circles that Asha and Tyrion hook up will happen not the whole king thing just the couple.I'm still betting on King Tyrion and Queen Sansa :P Come on, just three people need to die for this to happen -- and there's a prophecy out on one of them already.In "After the Thrones" they brought up the small possibility that Jon is actually the son of the Mad King... he could have had his way with Lyanna at some point. Maybe that is what lead to Rheagar "abducting"/"taking her away" from King's Landing. More likely he's the son of Rheagar, though... they were prob in love and ran away together.If he was Mad King's Son that would weaken his claim. In Westros the line of succession follows the first son. So in Jon's case if Prince Rhaegar took a second wife and had a son and only that male surives from him that child would be first in line before Dany. Also since Jon is a pure Nobel that would cancel the not wed parents knock based on Roberts son Edric Storm in book. Renly and Stannis both mention Edric as a threat and hostage against the other. It's believed that if a male noble blooded from the 1st born son seeks succession it is valid if the first son has no other children and 1st son's siblings have no children. This is so the royal blood line continues. So Jon will have a strong claim against Dany.
A good question to ask though... was Jon legitimized before birth? Maybe Rheagar and Lyanna were wed? It probably doesn't matter, though given that people are already calling Jon a King.
Will Dany eventually get with her nephew/half-brother?
Benioff and Weiss basically confirmed Rhaegar as dad on the Making of Game of Thrones blog.
Also, Dany has the much stronger claim since she has a gigantic army and dragons. That's probably going to be the support she needs. Jon is concerned with protecting the realm and will bend the knee...Sansa...maybe not so much.
Strongly foreshadowed that Sansa will make a play somehow here in the future maybe for the North, maybe just against Jon. Canonically she had to time for him and treated him as such. LF is playing right into that.
Strongly foreshadowed that Sansa will make a play somehow here in the future maybe for the North, maybe just against Jon. Canonically she had to time for him and treated him as such. LF is playing right into that.
If you're referring to the look she gave Littlefinger when the houses of the north declared Jon King, I don't think that's true. That look implied to me that Sansa realized Littlefinger would now be a threat to Jon. LF openly admitted that everything he did was to make the picture of him and Sansa on the Iron Throne come true, when everyone still assumed the houses of the north would not follow a ****. Now that they do, Jon has become a roadblock for Littlefinger.
Reminds me of a scene two weeks ago, when Jaime threatened to put Edmure Tully's wife and their baby in a catapult, which most people interpreted as a sign of Jaime's cruelty, when it was obvious this was just part of his scaretactic to end this conflict as quick and peacefully as possible.
However, I think it is possible Tyrion and Sansa could end up on the Iron Throne. After Westerosi law, they're still married, and Dany told Dario she needed a person she could trust in Essos when she sits on the Iron Throne. It is possible that she wins the war and decides life in Westeros isn't what she wants, installs Tyrion as King, and moves back to Essos.
Of course it could be disputed. Sansa is a woman who doesn't have an army supporting her. She has one man who wants her hand in marriage that has a borrowed army. Sansa has been relegated to second fiddle by her "half brother". Once Jon's true parentage comes out and Bran returns, Sansa will be relegated even further down the totem pole as she won't even be the true heir to Winterfell anymore (that would be Bran) and Jon will have the strongest claim to the throne of anyone (if they both live, Jon will probably marry Dany thus removing all opposition to his claim).Strongly foreshadowed that Sansa will make a play somehow here in the future maybe for the North, maybe just against Jon. Canonically she had to time for him and treated him as such. LF is playing right into that.
If you're referring to the look she gave Littlefinger when the houses of the north declared Jon King, I don't think that's true. That look implied to me that Sansa realized Littlefinger would now be a threat to Jon. LF openly admitted that everything he did was to make the picture of him and Sansa on the Iron Throne come true, when everyone still assumed the houses of the north would not follow a ****. Now that they do, Jon has become a roadblock for Littlefinger.
Reminds me of a scene two weeks ago, when Jaime threatened to put Edmure Tully's wife and their baby in a catapult, which most people interpreted as a sign of Jaime's cruelty, when it was obvious this was just part of his scaretactic to end this conflict as quick and peacefully as possible.
However, I think it is possible Tyrion and Sansa could end up on the Iron Throne. After Westerosi law, they're still married, and Dany told Dario she needed a person she could trust in Essos when she sits on the Iron Throne. It is possible that she wins the war and decides life in Westeros isn't what she wants, installs Tyrion as King, and moves back to Essos.
If we're dealing with implication then clearly, it's just conjecture and there is just as much evidence that Sansa will do what she wants and is considering all of her options. There is evidence that she doesn't particularly care for Jon and wants to play things close to her own vest. She's learning how to play the game and getting LF to tell her exactly what he wants shows that she has a good advantage here.
All of this is to say that Sansa has the chance to play a much more problematic role in the unification of Westeros than Jon when Dany arrives. I don't think that could be disputed.
https://www.facebook.com/DaenerysTargaryenTheQueen/photos/a.257870984324554.51384.257866377658348/883425635102416/?type=3&theaterDaenerys is most likely but it could also be Sansa. In some ways that would be more interesting considering the history between Cersei and Santa. And Cersei did remark often on Sansa's beauty.
So here's something that the finale might have changed.
Remember the exchange between young Cersei and Maggie the Frog (the Fortune Teller)?
"But I will be Queen?"
"Oh, yes. You'll be queen. For a time. Then comes another, younger, more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold dear."
So, previously everyone thought that this was referring to Margaery, but now that she's ACTUALLY the ruling queen, perhaps it's referring to Daenerys. Yeah, I like that theory.
Could be pretty much any female protagonist short of Olena Tyrell.https://www.facebook.com/DaenerysTargaryenTheQueen/photos/a.257870984324554.51384.257866377658348/883425635102416/?type=3&theaterDaenerys is most likely but it could also be Sansa. In some ways that would be more interesting considering the history between Cersei and Santa. And Cersei did remark often on Sansa's beauty.
So here's something that the finale might have changed.
Remember the exchange between young Cersei and Maggie the Frog (the Fortune Teller)?
"But I will be Queen?"
"Oh, yes. You'll be queen. For a time. Then comes another, younger, more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold dear."
So, previously everyone thought that this was referring to Margaery, but now that she's ACTUALLY the ruling queen, perhaps it's referring to Daenerys. Yeah, I like that theory.
Claims to the throne don't mean much. It's about power and cunning. Jon doesn't have much of an army left and he's got the Stark stupidity gene. In any case, I expect his attention will turn northward. Bran is the three eyed raven now. He's not going to be the Lord of Winterfell. Littlefinger has already raised his station greatly through his scheming but isn't satisfied and Sansa isn't going to accept being relegated to the background. I expect them to work together. Riverrun and the Twins seem ripe for the taking.Of course it could be disputed. Sansa is a woman who doesn't have an army supporting her. She has one man who wants her hand in marriage that has a borrowed army. Sansa has been relegated to second fiddle by her "half brother". Once Jon's true parentage comes out and Bran returns, Sansa will be relegated even further down the totem pole as she won't even be the true heir to Winterfell anymore (that would be Bran) and Jon will have the strongest claim to the throne of anyone (if they both live, Jon will probably marry Dany thus removing all opposition to his claim).Strongly foreshadowed that Sansa will make a play somehow here in the future maybe for the North, maybe just against Jon. Canonically she had to time for him and treated him as such. LF is playing right into that.
If you're referring to the look she gave Littlefinger when the houses of the north declared Jon King, I don't think that's true. That look implied to me that Sansa realized Littlefinger would now be a threat to Jon. LF openly admitted that everything he did was to make the picture of him and Sansa on the Iron Throne come true, when everyone still assumed the houses of the north would not follow a ****. Now that they do, Jon has become a roadblock for Littlefinger.
Reminds me of a scene two weeks ago, when Jaime threatened to put Edmure Tully's wife and their baby in a catapult, which most people interpreted as a sign of Jaime's cruelty, when it was obvious this was just part of his scaretactic to end this conflict as quick and peacefully as possible.
However, I think it is possible Tyrion and Sansa could end up on the Iron Throne. After Westerosi law, they're still married, and Dany told Dario she needed a person she could trust in Essos when she sits on the Iron Throne. It is possible that she wins the war and decides life in Westeros isn't what she wants, installs Tyrion as King, and moves back to Essos.
If we're dealing with implication then clearly, it's just conjecture and there is just as much evidence that Sansa will do what she wants and is considering all of her options. There is evidence that she doesn't particularly care for Jon and wants to play things close to her own vest. She's learning how to play the game and getting LF to tell her exactly what he wants shows that she has a good advantage here.
All of this is to say that Sansa has the chance to play a much more problematic role in the unification of Westeros than Jon when Dany arrives. I don't think that could be disputed.
Jon has all of the Northern houses backing him plus the remaining wildlings. As has been shown time and time again, the Northern houses are by far the fiercest warriors in the seven kingdoms. His army is just fine even without the Knights of the Vale.Claims to the throne don't mean much. It's about power and cunning. Jon doesn't have much of an army left and he's got the Stark stupidity gene. In any case, I expect his attention will turn northward. Bran is the three eyed raven now. He's not going to be the Lord of Winterfell. Littlefinger has already raised his station greatly through his scheming but isn't satisfied and Sansa isn't going to accept being relegated to the background. I expect them to work together. Riverrun and the Twins seem ripe for the taking.Of course it could be disputed. Sansa is a woman who doesn't have an army supporting her. She has one man who wants her hand in marriage that has a borrowed army. Sansa has been relegated to second fiddle by her "half brother". Once Jon's true parentage comes out and Bran returns, Sansa will be relegated even further down the totem pole as she won't even be the true heir to Winterfell anymore (that would be Bran) and Jon will have the strongest claim to the throne of anyone (if they both live, Jon will probably marry Dany thus removing all opposition to his claim).Strongly foreshadowed that Sansa will make a play somehow here in the future maybe for the North, maybe just against Jon. Canonically she had to time for him and treated him as such. LF is playing right into that.
If you're referring to the look she gave Littlefinger when the houses of the north declared Jon King, I don't think that's true. That look implied to me that Sansa realized Littlefinger would now be a threat to Jon. LF openly admitted that everything he did was to make the picture of him and Sansa on the Iron Throne come true, when everyone still assumed the houses of the north would not follow a ****. Now that they do, Jon has become a roadblock for Littlefinger.
Reminds me of a scene two weeks ago, when Jaime threatened to put Edmure Tully's wife and their baby in a catapult, which most people interpreted as a sign of Jaime's cruelty, when it was obvious this was just part of his scaretactic to end this conflict as quick and peacefully as possible.
However, I think it is possible Tyrion and Sansa could end up on the Iron Throne. After Westerosi law, they're still married, and Dany told Dario she needed a person she could trust in Essos when she sits on the Iron Throne. It is possible that she wins the war and decides life in Westeros isn't what she wants, installs Tyrion as King, and moves back to Essos.
If we're dealing with implication then clearly, it's just conjecture and there is just as much evidence that Sansa will do what she wants and is considering all of her options. There is evidence that she doesn't particularly care for Jon and wants to play things close to her own vest. She's learning how to play the game and getting LF to tell her exactly what he wants shows that she has a good advantage here.
All of this is to say that Sansa has the chance to play a much more problematic role in the unification of Westeros than Jon when Dany arrives. I don't think that could be disputed.
Interesting new theory came out after Martin released a chapter of Winds of Winter recently. The theory posits that Cersei ends up marrying Euron Greyjoy after his proposal to Daenerys is turned down. What do you think? With the dragon horn, that could make things interesting.Stop the presses, GRRM has finished a chapter :D
http://moviepilot.com/posts/3988046?utm_source=fb-channel-fantasy-channel&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=new-game-of-thrones-chapter-suggests-cersei-marries-euron-greyjoy-in-season-7
That is an interesting theory.
At the same time, with only two seasons left, things have to move pretty quickly. Cersei seems to be set up as Big Bad #1 for Jon and Dany to take down next season, then the final season will have to be all about defeating the Night King.
Do not click the link below if you do not want spoilers for season 7 - you've been warned. No spoilers in the rest of the post.I reviewed them as well, most were fairly predictable, but definitely a few surprises.
Apparently, some Reddit account hacked into something dealing with the filming of GoT Season 7 and found some massive spoilers. I said screw it and looked through them and..... wow. lol If these spoilers are correct, which there's no guarantee they are - though they do seem pretty legit, it's going to be one wild ride this season with some pretty crazy storylines that I haven't even seen posited anywhere in the GoT fandom universe. Take a look if you like.
Like I said, there's no guarantee these are accurate, but it would be pretty awesome to see some of these spoilers actually played out, one in particular.
http://www.wetpaint.com/game-of-thrones-spoilers-season-7-1536994/?postId=844718&socialTitle=&utm_campaign=vrl&utm_content=391-option-b&utm_medium=fnpg-network&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_term=1478611883295438
https://www.facebook.com/GameofThronesPH/videos/1416658325085808/
Only one more week! Can't wait!
Note the return of a Beric Dondarion, too!
Too slow of an episode for a season that has just 6 episodes left and just 12 left in the entire series.have to agree. they're on a self-imposed short timeline for the series. The story/plot needs to move at a quicker pace so they're not cramming in too much at the end.
Yep. Episode would have been fine in a normal season because it set up the rest of the season well, and while the beginning stuff with Sam was funny and done very well (it did nothing for the story) and I'm struggling to see why the scene with the Sheeran cameo was necessary (though that could still be necessary depending on how it ends next episode). Even the scene with Dany at the end seemed longer than it should have been with such a short timeline (though it was well done). I think they could have trimmed down a few other scenes and they should have put a couple of additional scenes in the episode to move the pace a bit faster.Too slow of an episode for a season that has just 6 episodes left and just 12 left in the entire series.have to agree. they're on a self-imposed short timeline for the series. The story/plot needs to move at a quicker pace so they're not cramming in too much at the end.
Sam's scene imho was perfect ... it showed in a few secs how bad things are going for him and prepared us for a Sam-Mormond storyThe pot scene? Unnecessarily long. I think we got the point pretty early on, there was no point to have the same thing on loop for another half a minute...
Too slow of an episode for a season that has just 6 episodes left and just 12 left in the entire series.
this was a necessary "set up" episodeToo slow of an episode for a season that has just 6 episodes left and just 12 left in the entire series.have to agree. they're on a self-imposed short timeline for the series. The story/plot needs to move at a quicker pace so they're not cramming in too much at the end.
Yep and Sam's discomfort has absolutely nothing to do with the overall story and why he is where he is at. The other Sam scenes were fine.Sam's scene imho was perfect ... it showed in a few secs how bad things are going for him and prepared us for a Sam-Mormond storyThe pot scene? Unnecessarily long. I think we got the point pretty early on, there was no point to have the same thing on loop for another half a minute...
but a lot of stuff didn't really happen. It set up a lot of future stuff happening, but not much really happened. There was probably 10 minutes of stuff that should have been eliminated and replaced with more relevant stuff.this was a necessary "set up" episodeToo slow of an episode for a season that has just 6 episodes left and just 12 left in the entire series.have to agree. they're on a self-imposed short timeline for the series. The story/plot needs to move at a quicker pace so they're not cramming in too much at the end.
it moved at the right pace
a LOT of stuff happened if you look deep enough
so much is being set up
but a lot of stuff didn't really happen. It set up a lot of future stuff happening, but not much really happened. There was probably 10 minutes of stuff that should have been eliminated and replaced with more relevant stuff.this was a necessary "set up" episodeToo slow of an episode for a season that has just 6 episodes left and just 12 left in the entire series.have to agree. they're on a self-imposed short timeline for the series. The story/plot needs to move at a quicker pace so they're not cramming in too much at the end.
it moved at the right pace
a LOT of stuff happened if you look deep enough
so much is being set up
Sure and in prior seasons when they had 10 episodes they could get away with that, but this season is 7 episodes and next season is only 6. There just isn't enough time for them to dilly dally around.but a lot of stuff didn't really happen. It set up a lot of future stuff happening, but not much really happened. There was probably 10 minutes of stuff that should have been eliminated and replaced with more relevant stuff.this was a necessary "set up" episodeToo slow of an episode for a season that has just 6 episodes left and just 12 left in the entire series.have to agree. they're on a self-imposed short timeline for the series. The story/plot needs to move at a quicker pace so they're not cramming in too much at the end.
it moved at the right pace
a LOT of stuff happened if you look deep enough
so much is being set up
Potential Spoilers Below:
I mean, that's the show's MO, though. The first episode is always a pretty general "setting things up" episode, and the final episode of the series usually is crammed full of storylines and/or cliffhangers. It's usually the 2nd episode (e.g. Joffrey's murder, Jon's resurrection) and the second to last episode of the season (e.g. Ned's death, Battle of the ****s, etc.) where most of the big action and surprises occur.
although there are fewer episodes, they're all probably going to be longerSure and in prior seasons when they had 10 episodes they could get away with that, but this season is 7 episodes and next season is only 6. There just isn't enough time for them to dilly dally around.but a lot of stuff didn't really happen. It set up a lot of future stuff happening, but not much really happened. There was probably 10 minutes of stuff that should have been eliminated and replaced with more relevant stuff.this was a necessary "set up" episodeToo slow of an episode for a season that has just 6 episodes left and just 12 left in the entire series.have to agree. they're on a self-imposed short timeline for the series. The story/plot needs to move at a quicker pace so they're not cramming in too much at the end.
it moved at the right pace
a LOT of stuff happened if you look deep enough
so much is being set up
Potential Spoilers Below:
I mean, that's the show's MO, though. The first episode is always a pretty general "setting things up" episode, and the final episode of the series usually is crammed full of storylines and/or cliffhangers. It's usually the 2nd episode (e.g. Joffrey's murder, Jon's resurrection) and the second to last episode of the season (e.g. Ned's death, Battle of the ****s, etc.) where most of the big action and surprises occur.
Sure, but I like some of the slow moments and don't really like non-stop action from start to finish (even if it is different scenes). It just seemed like to me they needlessly wasted some time and put in a lot of powerful slower scenes, which I just think would be better served in later episodes. Hopefully they can maintain the right mix of fast and slow, but there are going to be a lot of different high octane scenes this season and it is a short season. I just don't want to feel like I'm watching a non-stop action movie and miss out on the high drama stuff that makes Game of Thrones so good because they are running out of time and have a lot to do.although there are fewer episodes, they're all probably going to be longerSure and in prior seasons when they had 10 episodes they could get away with that, but this season is 7 episodes and next season is only 6. There just isn't enough time for them to dilly dally around.but a lot of stuff didn't really happen. It set up a lot of future stuff happening, but not much really happened. There was probably 10 minutes of stuff that should have been eliminated and replaced with more relevant stuff.this was a necessary "set up" episodeToo slow of an episode for a season that has just 6 episodes left and just 12 left in the entire series.have to agree. they're on a self-imposed short timeline for the series. The story/plot needs to move at a quicker pace so they're not cramming in too much at the end.
it moved at the right pace
a LOT of stuff happened if you look deep enough
so much is being set up
Potential Spoilers Below:
I mean, that's the show's MO, though. The first episode is always a pretty general "setting things up" episode, and the final episode of the series usually is crammed full of storylines and/or cliffhangers. It's usually the 2nd episode (e.g. Joffrey's murder, Jon's resurrection) and the second to last episode of the season (e.g. Ned's death, Battle of the ****s, etc.) where most of the big action and surprises occur.
i assume they don't want to "force it"
there's going to be PLENTY of action/plot happening
it's going to pick up pretty fast
Invisible Hand of the King (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojubI-sYwho)
;D ;D ;D
Sansa is going to screw things up in the North with Littlefinger, isn't she?
The scene and sounds made it look like Euron got stabbed and beaten up really good (as in.. Overkill)
The directors may know how Martin intends to end the story but they basically seem to be trying to validate the fan theories or wishes in their storyline. So far, the storyline has suffered without the books to go on. It feels very rushed now.
They have what, 12 episodes left to tell everything that needs to be told? I'm surprised at how leisurely it's been going so far.QuoteThe scene and sounds made it look like Euron got stabbed and beaten up really good (as in.. Overkill)
Euron dabbles in sorcery in the books. He is a much darker character. I suspect we will learn why he survived.
The directors may know how Martin intends to end the story but they basically seem to be trying to validate the fan theories or wishes in their storyline. So far, the storyline has suffered without the books to go on. It feels very rushed now.
But seriously, I mean I know Euron can't die yet... But even after all that he's still alive?? LOL :P
Felt like I saw him get stabbed like 50 times (or maybe he dodged every attempt and I saw it differently on my laptop lol) :laugh:
The scene and sounds made it look like Euron got stabbed and beaten up really good (as in.. Overkill)
It's neat to see that after 6 seasons most of the characters have leveled up enough to fast travel. ;D
Seriously voyages that would take weeks or months are happening regularly within or between single episodes.But seriously, I mean I know Euron can't die yet... But even after all that he's still alive?? LOL :P
Felt like I saw him get stabbed like 50 times (or maybe he dodged every attempt and I saw it differently on my laptop lol) :laugh:
The scene and sounds made it look like Euron got stabbed and beaten up really good (as in.. Overkill)
I was confused by that too but they were doing a lot of jump-cuts where a "good" character would mess up a random Ironborn - sometimes midway through fighting Euron and sometimes a different character than the one fighting him - then jump back to him. The dim lighting and sameyness of the background made it really hard to tell what was what. Euron took some hits but I'm not sure he was ever stabbed and he definitely wasn't the dude the one Sand Snake stabbed in the crotch.
It's neat to see that after 6 seasons most of the characters have leveled up enough to fast travel. ;D
Seriously voyages that would take weeks or months are happening regularly within or between single episodes.But seriously, I mean I know Euron can't die yet... But even after all that he's still alive?? LOL :P
Felt like I saw him get stabbed like 50 times (or maybe he dodged every attempt and I saw it differently on my laptop lol) :laugh:
The scene and sounds made it look like Euron got stabbed and beaten up really good (as in.. Overkill)
I was confused by that too but they were doing a lot of jump-cuts where a "good" character would mess up a random Ironborn - sometimes midway through fighting Euron and sometimes a different character than the one fighting him - then jump back to him. The dim lighting and sameyness of the background made it really hard to tell what was what. Euron took some hits but I'm not sure he was ever stabbed and he definitely wasn't the dude the one Sand Snake stabbed in the crotch.
Speaking of the dim lights (spoilers below):
I couldn't tell if that was Yara hanging from the ship, along with (presumably)the other Sand Snakes shown dead on the front of the ship.
I kind of guessed that they would keep Yara and Ellaria Sand alive to take back to Cersei, but it looked like that was them they were showing dead/hanged. Is that what others thought, too?
It's neat to see that after 6 seasons most of the characters have leveled up enough to fast travel. ;D
Seriously voyages that would take weeks or months are happening regularly within or between single episodes.But seriously, I mean I know Euron can't die yet... But even after all that he's still alive?? LOL :P
Felt like I saw him get stabbed like 50 times (or maybe he dodged every attempt and I saw it differently on my laptop lol) :laugh:
The scene and sounds made it look like Euron got stabbed and beaten up really good (as in.. Overkill)
I was confused by that too but they were doing a lot of jump-cuts where a "good" character would mess up a random Ironborn - sometimes midway through fighting Euron and sometimes a different character than the one fighting him - then jump back to him. The dim lighting and sameyness of the background made it really hard to tell what was what. Euron took some hits but I'm not sure he was ever stabbed and he definitely wasn't the dude the one Sand Snake stabbed in the crotch.
The hanging girl was one of the Sand Snakes that was killed.It's neat to see that after 6 seasons most of the characters have leveled up enough to fast travel. ;D
Seriously voyages that would take weeks or months are happening regularly within or between single episodes.But seriously, I mean I know Euron can't die yet... But even after all that he's still alive?? LOL :P
Felt like I saw him get stabbed like 50 times (or maybe he dodged every attempt and I saw it differently on my laptop lol) :laugh:
The scene and sounds made it look like Euron got stabbed and beaten up really good (as in.. Overkill)
I was confused by that too but they were doing a lot of jump-cuts where a "good" character would mess up a random Ironborn - sometimes midway through fighting Euron and sometimes a different character than the one fighting him - then jump back to him. The dim lighting and sameyness of the background made it really hard to tell what was what. Euron took some hits but I'm not sure he was ever stabbed and he definitely wasn't the dude the one Sand Snake stabbed in the crotch.
Speaking of the dim lights (spoilers below):
I couldn't tell if that was Yara hanging from the ship, along with (presumably)the other Sand Snakes shown dead on the front of the ship.
I kind of guessed that they would keep Yara and Ellaria Sand alive to take back to Cersei, but it looked like that was them they were showing dead/hanged. Is that what others thought, too?
Nah, I think it was just supposed to show the carnage of the attack, not named characters. Pretty sure they'll be taking Yara, Ellaria, and whichever Sand Snake survived to Cersei to get all Mad King on.
WHAT AN EPISODE!It was pretty packed for a shorter episode. A lot of fan service
This was right there with the Hardhome episode as the best episode yet!
WHAT AN EPISODE!It was pretty packed for a shorter episode. A lot of fan service
This was right there with the Hardhome episode as the best episode yet!
There's like 9 episodes left in the show and we get a 48 minute episode. Not gonna lie, feeling a little cheated.
We did get dragon burning up a lot of sheet so that was a huge plus though!
Episode was ok and best of the four this season, but clearly the quality has gone way down since they passed up the books. At least there weren't any useless scenes in this one, but way too short for what they need to do still. And the dragon and battle was cool, but why only bring Drogon and not the other two. Nonsense like that just takes away from the show overall as they make generally smart people do really dumb things all the time.
Of course they were needed. If they were there, instead of Drogon continually making passes, they do it once or maybe twice and Drogon then doesn't get hit at all and less troops end up escaping behind the walls.Episode was ok and best of the four this season, but clearly the quality has gone way down since they passed up the books. At least there weren't any useless scenes in this one, but way too short for what they need to do still. And the dragon and battle was cool, but why only bring Drogon and not the other two. Nonsense like that just takes away from the show overall as they make generally smart people do really dumb things all the time.
As it turns out the other dragons weren't needed.
Also I think she didn't want to show them all she's got...
What do you guys think happens with Jamie ? Taken as a prisoner ?I have no idea what happens with Jamie, but Tyrion won't turn on Dany.
And does Tyrion turn on Danny after she told him he will always remain a Lannister and him seeing the whole army getting fried ?
Episode was ok and best of the four this season, but clearly the quality has gone way down since they passed up the books. At least there weren't any useless scenes in this one, but way too short for what they need to do still. And the dragon and battle was cool, but why only bring Drogon and not the other two. Nonsense like that just takes away from the show overall as they make generally smart people do really dumb things all the time.
to quote stannis and davos: "fewer"Of course they were needed. If they were there, instead of Drogon continually making passes, they do it once or maybe twice and Drogon then doesn't get hit at all and less troops end up escaping behind the walls.Episode was ok and best of the four this season, but clearly the quality has gone way down since they passed up the books. At least there weren't any useless scenes in this one, but way too short for what they need to do still. And the dragon and battle was cool, but why only bring Drogon and not the other two. Nonsense like that just takes away from the show overall as they make generally smart people do really dumb things all the time.
As it turns out the other dragons weren't needed.
Also I think she didn't want to show them all she's got...
Episode was ok and best of the four this season, but clearly the quality has gone way down since they passed up the books. At least there weren't any useless scenes in this one, but way too short for what they need to do still. And the dragon and battle was cool, but why only bring Drogon and not the other two. Nonsense like that just takes away from the show overall as they make generally smart people do really dumb things all the time.I have found this season rather predictable and thoroughly uninspired. It's like the series is going through the motion and showing us a bunch of stuff we all know has to happen.
Um, she is the only dragonrider available at this stage... makes it kind of tough to ride three dragons at the same time.Of course they were needed. If they were there, instead of Drogon continually making passes, they do it once or maybe twice and Drogon then doesn't get hit at all and less troops end up escaping behind the walls.Episode was ok and best of the four this season, but clearly the quality has gone way down since they passed up the books. At least there weren't any useless scenes in this one, but way too short for what they need to do still. And the dragon and battle was cool, but why only bring Drogon and not the other two. Nonsense like that just takes away from the show overall as they make generally smart people do really dumb things all the time.
As it turns out the other dragons weren't needed.
Also I think she didn't want to show them all she's got...
Maybe she should spend more time teaching the dragons to fly in formation, or to respond to other riders. ;)I expect we'll see more dragonriders soon enough ;)
I expect we'll see all three dragons attacking soon enough.
Episode was ok and best of the four this season, but clearly the quality has gone way down since they passed up the books. At least there weren't any useless scenes in this one, but way too short for what they need to do still. And the dragon and battle was cool, but why only bring Drogon and not the other two. Nonsense like that just takes away from the show overall as they make generally smart people do really dumb things all the time.
Enjoyed the episode but it was a bit cheesy how Bronn and Jaime both should've been toasted but got out of the way at the last instant. The continuing use of fast travel is a nice nod to RPGs, though. And I liked how getting tackled about 3 feet laterally got Jaime from water shallow enough a horse can gallop through to like a hundred foot drop.In a river, no less...
In a leaked version of the script, he was supposed to be tackled off of a bridgeEnjoyed the episode but it was a bit cheesy how Bronn and Jaime both should've been toasted but got out of the way at the last instant. The continuing use of fast travel is a nice nod to RPGs, though. And I liked how getting tackled about 3 feet laterally got Jaime from water shallow enough a horse can gallop through to like a hundred foot drop.In a river, no less...
Maybe she should spend more time teaching the dragons to fly in formation, or to respond to other riders. ;)I expect we'll see more dragonriders soon enough ;)
I expect we'll see all three dragons attacking soon enough.
What do you guys make of Littlefinger looking at that Arya - Brienne sparring? Seems like he's going "oh, shoot, we have an assassin in the house..."Jon seems pretty obvious and Tyrion is definitely a popular fan theory, though I wouldn't be so sure it is him. Certainly could be, but that is almost too obvious for Martin to do (and while the books aren't out, they won't have any really major departures from Martin's intent I don't think).Maybe she should spend more time teaching the dragons to fly in formation, or to respond to other riders. ;)I expect we'll see more dragonriders soon enough ;)
I expect we'll see all three dragons attacking soon enough.
Jon and Tyrion right? Please tell me it's Jon and Tyrion.
What do you guys make of Littlefinger looking at that Arya - Brienne sparring? Seems like he's going "oh, shoot, we have an assassin in the house..."
The problem is that we barely have any other protagonists whose lineage is unaccounted for, and the rider has to be a Targaryen, no? Although, arguably, Tyrion's lineage is also accounted for, so...What do you guys make of Littlefinger looking at that Arya - Brienne sparring? Seems like he's going "oh, shoot, we have an assassin in the house..."Jon seems pretty obvious and Tyrion is definitely a popular fan theory, though I wouldn't be so sure it is him. Certainly could be, but that is almost too obvious for Martin to do (and while the books aren't out, they won't have any really major departures from Martin's intent I don't think).Maybe she should spend more time teaching the dragons to fly in formation, or to respond to other riders. ;)I expect we'll see more dragonriders soon enough ;)
I expect we'll see all three dragons attacking soon enough.
Jon and Tyrion right? Please tell me it's Jon and Tyrion.
Tyrion's isn't really unaccounted for though. Could it not be Jamie? That seems much more like a book move. It could also be Bran, who "rides" by merely warging into the dragon. That also sounds more like a Martin move. It may very well be Tyrion, but I don't think it is a given at all.The problem is that we barely have any other protagonists whose lineage is unaccounted for, and the rider has to be a Targaryen, no?What do you guys make of Littlefinger looking at that Arya - Brienne sparring? Seems like he's going "oh, shoot, we have an assassin in the house..."Jon seems pretty obvious and Tyrion is definitely a popular fan theory, though I wouldn't be so sure it is him. Certainly could be, but that is almost too obvious for Martin to do (and while the books aren't out, they won't have any really major departures from Martin's intent I don't think).Maybe she should spend more time teaching the dragons to fly in formation, or to respond to other riders. ;)I expect we'll see more dragonriders soon enough ;)
I expect we'll see all three dragons attacking soon enough.
Jon and Tyrion right? Please tell me it's Jon and Tyrion.
Tyrion's isn't really unaccounted for though. Could it not be Jamie? That seems much more like a book move. It could also be Bran, who "rides" by merely warging into the dragon. That also sounds more like a Martin move. It may very well be Tyrion, but I don't think it is a given at all.My bet goes for Gendry, who is bound to finally reemerge from his rowboat this season. He has some Targaryen ancestry through Robert Baratheon.
Unlikely, though he might end up in Storm's End as the "rightful" ruler of it. Also wouldn't even be surprised if he ended up married to Arya.Tyrion's isn't really unaccounted for though. Could it not be Jamie? That seems much more like a book move. It could also be Bran, who "rides" by merely warging into the dragon. That also sounds more like a Martin move. It may very well be Tyrion, but I don't think it is a given at all.My bet goes for Gendry, who is bound to finally reemerge from his rowboat this season. He has some Targaryen ancestry through Robert Baratheon.
What do you guys make of Littlefinger looking at that Arya - Brienne sparring? Seems like he's going "oh, shoot, we have an assassin in the house..."
Littlefinger's been trying to drive a wedge between Sansa and Jon since he got back into the picture at the Battle of the ****s. Between that and giving Bran the dagger he's definitely working a new angle now that two more Starks have returned, but it's not quite clear what it is yet. Bran giving him the "I see you" by quoting his Season 1 speech was the most enjoyable thing he's done in years, though.
Just learned from reading a bit that those Lannister soldiers on fire were not CGI'ed - the show set a record for most stuntmen set on fire in a single sequence - reportedly 73 :o
Bran knows that anyway (of course he knows everything). Arya's uncle (Edmure Tully) may know that as well, since he was being held by the Freys or Lannisters and is married to a Frey and Arya did let some people live.What do you guys make of Littlefinger looking at that Arya - Brienne sparring? Seems like he's going "oh, shoot, we have an assassin in the house..."
Littlefinger's been trying to drive a wedge between Sansa and Jon since he got back into the picture at the Battle of the ****s. Between that and giving Bran the dagger he's definitely working a new angle now that two more Starks have returned, but it's not quite clear what it is yet. Bran giving him the "I see you" by quoting his Season 1 speech was the most enjoyable thing he's done in years, though.
Just learned from reading a bit that those Lannister soldiers on fire were not CGI'ed - the show set a record for most stuntmen set on fire in a single sequence - reportedly 73 :o
TP for the cool info.
Yeah, I'm curious to see what Littlefinger does/thinks about Arya. Is there a way to recognize her fighting as a particular style (i.e. assassin). If so, he probably has figured out she was responsible for the Fray murders.
Had it been a real fight.
Loved the episode, and had 2 favorite scenes:
1) The Arya & Brienne fight. I rewatched that fight 6 or 7 times, and think I noticed something interesting. After Brienne kicks Arya to the ground (which is a relative shock to the viewer), her face appears concerned, which one might think she's concerned that she took things too far and hurt Arya. But if you rewind the fight, the move or two before that kick was Arya mock slashing Brienne's right leg. Had it been a real fight, that slash would have prevented Brienne from kicking Arya, and I think Brienne realized that she was technically check-mated even if she did the kick. Overall I just loved the whole fight sequence and Brienne's loving interest turned competitive, and then ultimately concerned.
2) There's a brief scene where the Dothraki jump on top of their horses to fire arrows at the shielded line of men. This scene brought to life a moment that never (but almost) actually happened in real human history. It was theorized that the Mongol empire could have potentially conquered Europe, and there's been a lot of intrigue around how European armor and tactics would have held up against mounted cavalry, with most historians thinking the Mongols would win. The GoT clash reminded me so much of this, although the Dothraki did things a bit different (real Mongols typically stood up on their rotating stirrups, and instead of hitting the line of foot soldiers would continually swoop in & out while accurately firing off their armor piercing arrows).
They weren't fighting armored knights. They were fighting foot soldiers. Once their formations were broken, the Dothraki would wipe them out in one-on-one fighting.2) There's a brief scene where the Dothraki jump on top of their horses to fire arrows at the shielded line of men. This scene brought to life a moment that never (but almost) actually happened in real human history. It was theorized that the Mongol empire could have potentially conquered Europe, and there's been a lot of intrigue around how European armor and tactics would have held up against mounted cavalry, with most historians thinking the Mongols would win. The GoT clash reminded me so much of this, although the Dothraki did things a bit different (real Mongols typically stood up on their rotating stirrups, and instead of hitting the line of foot soldiers would continually swoop in & out while accurately firing off their armor piercing arrows).
It's more internal show logic but I wish they'd've called back to Season 1 when Jorah told that bloodrider guy exactly why his fighting style would fail against an armored knight (the curved blades would get hung up on the armor) and then exactly that happened when they fought later. Would've liked to see the Dothraki adjusting their tactics or losing most ground one-on-one fights due to it.
Latest episode (S7, E5) spoilers below;I don't mind the teleporting but can we change people's out fits or hair styles to show time passed.
So the "teleport"/"fast travel" method was in full display tonight, eh? We had Jaime and Bronn travel from Highgarden to King's Landing, Davos and Tyrion travel from Dragonstone to King's Landing AND back, and Jon's group travel from Dragonstone to the Wall all at different times in the episode. I don't really mind it, but after not employing this method of travel during the first six seasons, it's strange to do it now. That's the price to pay for shortened seasons, I guess.
I also don't quite get this quest to capture a wight. I can't see any way of it working, and it doesn't even seem like a feasible option that they would consider. It also has a Cersei trap written all over it. I don't really like criticizing show's that I'm this into, but to me this part of the plot seems like poor writing that I'm not really buying into.
Granted, I'm loving the dynamic of this group: Jon, Tormund, Jorah, Davos, Clegane, Gendry, Dondarion, and Thoros of Myr? That will be entertaining north of the Wall!
Latest episode (S7, E5) spoilers below;I don't mind the teleporting but can we change people's out fits or hair styles to show time passed.
So the "teleport"/"fast travel" method was in full display tonight, eh? We had Jaime and Bronn travel from Highgarden to King's Landing, Davos and Tyrion travel from Dragonstone to King's Landing AND back, and Jon's group travel from Dragonstone to the Wall all at different times in the episode. I don't really mind it, but after not employing this method of travel during the first six seasons, it's strange to do it now. That's the price to pay for shortened seasons, I guess.
I also don't quite get this quest to capture a wight. I can't see any way of it working, and it doesn't even seem like a feasible option that they would consider. It also has a Cersei trap written all over it. I don't really like criticizing show's that I'm this into, but to me this part of the plot seems like poor writing that I'm not really buying into.
Granted, I'm loving the dynamic of this group: Jon, Tormund, Jorah, Davos, Clegane, Gendry, Dondarion, and Thoros of Myr? That will be entertaining north of the Wall!
Spoiler
And no longer a bas... is official in show (to the viewers at least). That is kind of a big deal.
Can hardly wait for some more action. Have to admit the previous episode made me think, if the scorpions can ground a dragon then dragons are toast if the wight giants can still use their bows.
Latest episode (S7, E5) spoilers below;They don't show the travel and just advance things because there is no reason to show nothing happening elsewhere. Things also don't necessarily all happen at the same time even if they show them on the show at the same time, but they did definitely stretch it in the last episode.
So the "teleport"/"fast travel" method was in full display tonight, eh? We had Jaime and Bronn travel from Highgarden to King's Landing, Davos and Tyrion travel from Dragonstone to King's Landing AND back, and Jon's group travel from Dragonstone to the Wall all at different times in the episode. I don't really mind it, but after not employing this method of travel during the first six seasons, it's strange to do it now. That's the price to pay for shortened seasons, I guess.
I also don't quite get this quest to capture a wight. I can't see any way of it working, and it doesn't even seem like a feasible option that they would consider. It also has a Cersei trap written all over it. I don't really like criticizing show's that I'm this into, but to me this part of the plot seems like poor writing that I'm not really buying into.
Granted, I'm loving the dynamic of this group: Jon, Tormund, Jorah, Davos, Clegane, Gendry, Dondarion, and Thoros of Myr? That will be entertaining north of the Wall!
Latest episode (S7, E5) spoilers below;I don't mind the teleporting but can we change people's out fits or hair styles to show time passed.
So the "teleport"/"fast travel" method was in full display tonight, eh? We had Jaime and Bronn travel from Highgarden to King's Landing, Davos and Tyrion travel from Dragonstone to King's Landing AND back, and Jon's group travel from Dragonstone to the Wall all at different times in the episode. I don't really mind it, but after not employing this method of travel during the first six seasons, it's strange to do it now. That's the price to pay for shortened seasons, I guess.
I also don't quite get this quest to capture a wight. I can't see any way of it working, and it doesn't even seem like a feasible option that they would consider. It also has a Cersei trap written all over it. I don't really like criticizing show's that I'm this into, but to me this part of the plot seems like poor writing that I'm not really buying into.
Granted, I'm loving the dynamic of this group: Jon, Tormund, Jorah, Davos, Clegane, Gendry, Dondarion, and Thoros of Myr? That will be entertaining north of the Wall!
Spoiler
And no longer a bas... is official in show (to the viewers at least). That is kind of a big deal.
Can hardly wait for some more action. Have to admit the previous episode made me think, if the scorpions can ground a dragon then dragons are toast if the wight giants can still use their bows.
That's funny, I was just reading a theory suggesting that, and in one of the first episodes it actyallly showed one of the giant wights holding a bow. Have to think that's more than a coinicidence, but it would also require Daenerys making a trip to the wall in the next two episodes.
And then the Night King could resurrect it and use it to melt the wall. HBO actually put out a promotional poster months before this season that had the Night King riding a dragon sitting atop the Wall. It'd be strange of them to actually foreshadow things that much, but there's certainly a possibility that's how the Army of the Dead gets past the Wall.
EDIT: Here's the poster. Supposedly it's Viserion, too, though that'd require other dragon riders to be identified, as well. Seems like too much to accomplish in the final two episodes.
(https://www.thereportertimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Game-of-Thrones-Season-7-ice-dragon.jpg)
anyone know what that paper Arya found said and what the original likely said (since it is doubtful Littlefinger put the real one there since he knew he was being watched). I was thinking it might be an account of Jon's birth.
It's Sansa's letter to Robb from S1 that she wrote under Cersei's dictation. More here:anyone know what that paper Arya found said and what the original likely said (since it is doubtful Littlefinger put the real one there since he knew he was being watched). I was thinking it might be an account of Jon's birth.
The show runners said he was trying to turn the sisters against each other because if they bond it leaves him on the outside looking in. I'm assuming it was something to do with Sansa taking the North from Jon, considering they argued about that earlier in the episode.
anyone know what that paper Arya found said and what the original likely said (since it is doubtful Littlefinger put the real one there since he knew he was being watched). I was thinking it might be an account of Jon's birth.
Back in Season 1, after Robert Baratheon died and Sansas father Ned was charged with treason, Cersei threatened Sansa into writing a letter back home to her mother Catelyn and brother Robb, to convince them to support Joffrey:
The note-
Robb, I write to you with a heavy heart. Our good king Robert is dead, killed from wounds he took in a boar hunt. Father has been charged with treason. He conspired with Roberts brothers against my beloved Joffrey and tried to steal his throne. The Lannisters are treating me very well and provide me with every comfort. I beg you: come to Kings Landing, swear fealty to King Joffrey and prevent any strife between the great houses of Lannister and Stark.
Also, did anyone catch Gilly reading to Sam the account of the septon annulling a marriage of a Rhaegar in Dorne? I can't believe he didn't perk up to that. Dany's older brother's marriage to Ellia Martel was ANNULLED. Do you know what this means? Jon Snow is NOT a ****. Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark...That Samwell heard this and didn't want to know more about it was sooo annoying.
He wouldn't have any reason to want to know anything about some Targaryen prince that died before he was out of diapers...Also, did anyone catch Gilly reading to Sam the account of the septon annulling a marriage of a Rhaegar in Dorne? I can't believe he didn't perk up to that. Dany's older brother's marriage to Ellia Martel was ANNULLED. Do you know what this means? Jon Snow is NOT a ****. Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark...That Samwell heard this and didn't want to know more about it was sooo annoying.
Although, I am happy that he is leaving, because it paves the way for him to become the lord of house Tarly.
He wouldn't, but Sam knows a lot about history and once he heard Prince Rhaegar, who was pretty darn modern, getting his marriage annulled his interest should have piqued. Hopefully he took that book with him.He wouldn't have any reason to want to know anything about some Targaryen prince that died before he was out of diapers...Also, did anyone catch Gilly reading to Sam the account of the septon annulling a marriage of a Rhaegar in Dorne? I can't believe he didn't perk up to that. Dany's older brother's marriage to Ellia Martel was ANNULLED. Do you know what this means? Jon Snow is NOT a ****. Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark...That Samwell heard this and didn't want to know more about it was sooo annoying.
Although, I am happy that he is leaving, because it paves the way for him to become the lord of house Tarly.
Also, I would've thought Arya would be more adept at not being watched/followed than to let Littlefinger trick her.
He wouldn't, but Sam knows a lot about history and once he heard Prince Rhaegar, who was pretty darn modern, getting his marriage annulled his interest should have piqued. Hopefully he took that book with him.He wouldn't have any reason to want to know anything about some Targaryen prince that died before he was out of diapers...Also, did anyone catch Gilly reading to Sam the account of the septon annulling a marriage of a Rhaegar in Dorne? I can't believe he didn't perk up to that. Dany's older brother's marriage to Ellia Martel was ANNULLED. Do you know what this means? Jon Snow is NOT a ****. Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark...That Samwell heard this and didn't want to know more about it was sooo annoying.
Although, I am happy that he is leaving, because it paves the way for him to become the lord of house Tarly.
Also, did anyone catch Gilly reading to Sam the account of the septon annulling a marriage of a Rhaegar in Dorne? I can't believe he didn't perk up to that. Dany's older brother's marriage to Ellia Martel was ANNULLED. Do you know what this means? Jon Snow is NOT a ****. Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark...It also means he officially became the rightful heir to the Iron Throne yesterday as the only surviving natural-born child of the crown prince. Heh.
He wouldn't, but Sam knows a lot about history and once he heard Prince Rhaegar, who was pretty darn modern, getting his marriage annulled his interest should have piqued. Hopefully he took that book with him.He wouldn't have any reason to want to know anything about some Targaryen prince that died before he was out of diapers...Also, did anyone catch Gilly reading to Sam the account of the septon annulling a marriage of a Rhaegar in Dorne? I can't believe he didn't perk up to that. Dany's older brother's marriage to Ellia Martel was ANNULLED. Do you know what this means? Jon Snow is NOT a ****. Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark...That Samwell heard this and didn't want to know more about it was sooo annoying.
Although, I am happy that he is leaving, because it paves the way for him to become the lord of house Tarly.
There didn't seem to be much method to his book collecting madness.Nerds hate method.
Also, did anyone catch Gilly reading to Sam the account of the septon annulling a marriage of a Rhaegar in Dorne? I can't believe he didn't perk up to that. Dany's older brother's marriage to Ellia Martel was ANNULLED. Do you know what this means? Jon Snow is NOT a ****. Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark...It also means he officially became the rightful heir to the Iron Throne yesterday as the only surviving natural-born child of the crown prince. Heh.
There didn't seem to be much method to his book collecting madness.Nerds hate method.
Also, did anyone catch Gilly reading to Sam the account of the septon annulling a marriage of a Rhaegar in Dorne? I can't believe he didn't perk up to that. Dany's older brother's marriage to Ellia Martel was ANNULLED. Do you know what this means? Jon Snow is NOT a ****. Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark...It also means he officially became the rightful heir to the Iron Throne yesterday as the only surviving natural-born child of the crown prince. Heh.
Yes exactly. His birth order would come first, which means Dany is technically rebelling against him by proclaiming herself queen lol.
Also, did anyone catch Gilly reading to Sam the account of the septon annulling a marriage of a Rhaegar in Dorne? I can't believe he didn't perk up to that. Dany's older brother's marriage to Ellia Martel was ANNULLED. Do you know what this means? Jon Snow is NOT a ****. Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark...It also means he officially became the rightful heir to the Iron Throne yesterday as the only surviving natural-born child of the crown prince. Heh.
Yes exactly. His birth order would come first, which means Dany is technically rebelling against him by proclaiming herself queen lol.
Ned claimed he was his Edited for profanity. Please do not do it again. because the son of a Targaryean would surely be killed, even if he was a Edited for profanity. Please do not do it again..Also, did anyone catch Gilly reading to Sam the account of the septon annulling a marriage of a Rhaegar in Dorne? I can't believe he didn't perk up to that. Dany's older brother's marriage to Ellia Martel was ANNULLED. Do you know what this means? Jon Snow is NOT a ****. Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark...It also means he officially became the rightful heir to the Iron Throne yesterday as the only surviving natural-born child of the crown prince. Heh.
Yes exactly. His birth order would come first, which means Dany is technically rebelling against him by proclaiming herself queen lol.
Wasn't Jon Ned's kid. Or was that just the story Ned told to uphold his sister's good name? Is Brandon the only one who knows that? KInd of hazy on this part.
Also, did anyone catch Gilly reading to Sam the account of the septon annulling a marriage of a Rhaegar in Dorne? I can't believe he didn't perk up to that. Dany's older brother's marriage to Ellia Martel was ANNULLED. Do you know what this means? Jon Snow is NOT a ****. Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark...It also means he officially became the rightful heir to the Iron Throne yesterday as the only surviving natural-born child of the crown prince. Heh.
Yes exactly. His birth order would come first, which means Dany is technically rebelling against him by proclaiming herself queen lol.
Wasn't Jon Ned's kid. Or was that just the story Ned told to uphold his sister's good name? Is Brandon the only one who knows that? KInd of hazy on this part.
Nope, this sounds about right. Not sure you can make the name being whispered in the Tower scene, though...Also, did anyone catch Gilly reading to Sam the account of the septon annulling a marriage of a Rhaegar in Dorne? I can't believe he didn't perk up to that. Dany's older brother's marriage to Ellia Martel was ANNULLED. Do you know what this means? Jon Snow is NOT a ****. Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark...It also means he officially became the rightful heir to the Iron Throne yesterday as the only surviving natural-born child of the crown prince. Heh.
Yes exactly. His birth order would come first, which means Dany is technically rebelling against him by proclaiming herself queen lol.
Wasn't Jon Ned's kid. Or was that just the story Ned told to uphold his sister's good name? Is Brandon the only one who knows that? KInd of hazy on this part.
I've read too many fan theories at this point, so disclaimer that I might be adding things that didn't happen in the show. But we do know that Jon is said to be Ned's **** that he brought home after Robert's Rebellion. Ned tell's Jon he will tell him about his mother next time they meet, but get's his head lopped off. Rhaegar Targaryen "kidnapped" Lyanna Stark which is what started Robert's Rebellion. You see young Ned go to get her back at the Tower of Joy in Bran's vision. You see Lyanna die in a bed and make Ned promise to protect her son (I think she says "Jon" specifically?) Now we are being told Rhaegar had his marriage annulled, which could mean Jon isn't just a **** Targaryen, he's actually the legitimate one, and in line to get the throne BEFORE Dany would. Did I miss anything in the show?
He conveniently tossed the book to the kid to play with so I bet it conveniently ends up in their luggage. The way this show turbo-charges through material, I fully expect Sam to end up in Winterfell next episode, and for Bran to accidentally discover and read the book.Also, did anyone catch Gilly reading to Sam the account of the septon annulling a marriage of a Rhaegar in Dorne? I can't believe he didn't perk up to that. Dany's older brother's marriage to Ellia Martel was ANNULLED. Do you know what this means? Jon Snow is NOT a ****. Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark...It also means he officially became the rightful heir to the Iron Throne yesterday as the only surviving natural-born child of the crown prince. Heh.
Yes exactly. His birth order would come first, which means Dany is technically rebelling against him by proclaiming herself queen lol.
I sure hope Sam took those records with him. I was clapping and shouting by myself when they revealed it.
Jon is the true king. The problem now is, the Northeners. How would take take this news if they found out? I think Littlefinger knows already...
Also, did anyone catch Gilly reading to Sam the account of the septon annulling a marriage of a Rhaegar in Dorne? I can't believe he didn't perk up to that. Dany's older brother's marriage to Ellia Martel was ANNULLED. Do you know what this means? Jon Snow is NOT a ****. Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark...It also means he officially became the rightful heir to the Iron Throne yesterday as the only surviving natural-born child of the crown prince. Heh.
Yes exactly. His birth order would come first, which means Dany is technically rebelling against him by proclaiming herself queen lol.
I sure hope Sam took those records with him. I was clapping and shouting by myself when they revealed it.
Jon is the true king. The problem now is, the Northeners. How would take take this news if they found out? I think Littlefinger knows already...
Nope, this sounds about right. Not sure you can make the name being whispered in the Tower scene, though...Also, did anyone catch Gilly reading to Sam the account of the septon annulling a marriage of a Rhaegar in Dorne? I can't believe he didn't perk up to that. Dany's older brother's marriage to Ellia Martel was ANNULLED. Do you know what this means? Jon Snow is NOT a ****. Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark...It also means he officially became the rightful heir to the Iron Throne yesterday as the only surviving natural-born child of the crown prince. Heh.
Yes exactly. His birth order would come first, which means Dany is technically rebelling against him by proclaiming herself queen lol.
Wasn't Jon Ned's kid. Or was that just the story Ned told to uphold his sister's good name? Is Brandon the only one who knows that? KInd of hazy on this part.
I've read too many fan theories at this point, so disclaimer that I might be adding things that didn't happen in the show. But we do know that Jon is said to be Ned's **** that he brought home after Robert's Rebellion. Ned tell's Jon he will tell him about his mother next time they meet, but get's his head lopped off. Rhaegar Targaryen "kidnapped" Lyanna Stark which is what started Robert's Rebellion. You see young Ned go to get her back at the Tower of Joy in Bran's vision. You see Lyanna die in a bed and make Ned promise to protect her son (I think she says "Jon" specifically?) Now we are being told Rhaegar had his marriage annulled, which could mean Jon isn't just a **** Targaryen, he's actually the legitimate one, and in line to get the throne BEFORE Dany would. Did I miss anything in the show?
Jon is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. They showed his birth in a flashback last season at the Tower of Joy. Ned and Howland Reed (Meera's father) went to rescue the presumed to have been kidnapped Lyanna from Rhaegar, only to arrive as Lyanna was giving birth to Jon (it was that kidnapping that actually started Robert's Rebellion). Lyanna died in child birth and as she was dying whispered something to Ned, which most presume was her request to protect Jon. Ned swore Howland to secrecy and took Jon home as his Edited for profanity. Please do not do it again.. Thus, protecting him from Robert Baretheon who made it his mission to kill all Targaryens. Robert's mission to kill the Targaryen heirs has been on the show a lot. From the assassins sent to kill Dany and her brother early on to Oberyn Martell agreeing to fight the Mountain to gain the truth of what happened to his sister Elia (who was the wife of Rhaegar before the annulment) and Elia's children with Rhaegar.Also, did anyone catch Gilly reading to Sam the account of the septon annulling a marriage of a Rhaegar in Dorne? I can't believe he didn't perk up to that. Dany's older brother's marriage to Ellia Martel was ANNULLED. Do you know what this means? Jon Snow is NOT a ****. Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark...It also means he officially became the rightful heir to the Iron Throne yesterday as the only surviving natural-born child of the crown prince. Heh.
Yes exactly. His birth order would come first, which means Dany is technically rebelling against him by proclaiming herself queen lol.
Wasn't Jon Ned's kid. Or was that just the story Ned told to uphold his sister's good name? Is Brandon the only one who knows that? KInd of hazy on this part.
Also, what's the deal with the dagger? It obviously has some role to play, but I've yet to figure that one out. I'm guessing it gets used to kill and frame someone, similar to its role in the first season.Either it was used as an incidental prop to develop Littlefinger this season, or it's going to come handy if Arya needs to kill any White Walkers. It's kid of hard to tell. This show has a way of leaving a lot of things for dead for no particular rhyme or reason.
Cersei didn't order Robert's Edited for profanity. Please do not do it again.s to be killed. Joffrey did.Jon is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. They showed his birth in a flashback last season at the Tower of Joy. Ned and Howland Reed (Meera's father) went to rescue the presumed to have been kidnapped Lyanna from Rhaegar, only to arrive as Lyanna was giving birth to Jon (it was that kidnapping that actually started Robert's Rebellion). Lyanna died in child birth and as she was dying whispered something to Ned, which most presume was her request to protect Jon. Ned swore Howland to secrecy and took Jon home as his ****. Thus, protecting him from Robert Baretheon who made it his mission to kill all Targaryens. Robert's mission to kill the Targaryen heirs has been on the show a lot. From the assassins sent to kill Dany and her brother early on to Oberyn Martell agreeing to fight the Mountain to gain the truth of what happened to his sister Elia (who was the wife of Rhaegar before the annulment) and Elia's children with Rhaegar.Also, did anyone catch Gilly reading to Sam the account of the septon annulling a marriage of a Rhaegar in Dorne? I can't believe he didn't perk up to that. Dany's older brother's marriage to Ellia Martel was ANNULLED. Do you know what this means? Jon Snow is NOT a ****. Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark...It also means he officially became the rightful heir to the Iron Throne yesterday as the only surviving natural-born child of the crown prince. Heh.
Yes exactly. His birth order would come first, which means Dany is technically rebelling against him by proclaiming herself queen lol.
Wasn't Jon Ned's kid. Or was that just the story Ned told to uphold his sister's good name? Is Brandon the only one who knows that? KInd of hazy on this part.
You also saw something similar with Cersei going around and killing all of Robert's ****s, with Gendry presumably being the only one that got away. In a harsh world such as Westeros, in order to truly establish yourself as ruler, you need to eliminate all those that could possibly challenge you with a birthright.
Latest episode (S7, E5) spoilers below;If they were a bit more ruthless, there'd be no reason to go north of the wall. Could have just killed someone (e.g. the Hound) at Eas****ch, chained the body in the back of a wagon, wait for it to turn and then take it south.
So the "teleport"/"fast travel" method was in full display tonight, eh? We had Jaime and Bronn travel from Highgarden to King's Landing, Davos and Tyrion travel from Dragonstone to King's Landing AND back, and Jon's group travel from Dragonstone to the Wall all at different times in the episode. I don't really mind it, but after not employing this method of travel during the first six seasons, it's strange to do it now. That's the price to pay for shortened seasons, I guess.
I also don't quite get this quest to capture a wight. I can't see any way of it working, and it doesn't even seem like a feasible option that they would consider. It also has a Cersei trap written all over it. I don't really like criticizing show's that I'm this into, but to me this part of the plot seems like poor writing that I'm not really buying into.
Granted, I'm loving the dynamic of this group: Jon, Tormund, Jorah, Davos, Clegane, Gendry, Dondarion, and Thoros of Myr? That will be entertaining north of the Wall!
So there's Jon, Jorah, Hound, Berric, Thoros, Gendry and Tormund going beyond the wall.Well, they're missing Euron, Bron, Jaime Lannister and Brienne. But yeah, more or less.
This has to be the Golden State Warriors of this world when it comes to fighting, right? Or are we missing someone?
If they were a bit more ruthless, there'd be no reason to go north of the wall. Could have just killed someone (e.g. the Hound) at Eas****ch, chained the body in the back of a wagon, wait for it to turn and then take it south.Except folks don't just turn north of the wall, you need a White Walker to raise them. I don't think your plan will work very well.
In the books Cersei gave the order. I think they might have changed it for the show, but that change makes no sense as Joffrey didn't know he was not Robert's son and thus would have had no reason to kill what he believed to be his **** brothers. Cersei on the other hand, knew Joffrey was not Robert's son and thus had everyone reason to eliminate Robert's actual children.Cersei didn't order Robert's ****s to be killed. Joffrey did.Jon is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. They showed his birth in a flashback last season at the Tower of Joy. Ned and Howland Reed (Meera's father) went to rescue the presumed to have been kidnapped Lyanna from Rhaegar, only to arrive as Lyanna was giving birth to Jon (it was that kidnapping that actually started Robert's Rebellion). Lyanna died in child birth and as she was dying whispered something to Ned, which most presume was her request to protect Jon. Ned swore Howland to secrecy and took Jon home as his ****. Thus, protecting him from Robert Baretheon who made it his mission to kill all Targaryens. Robert's mission to kill the Targaryen heirs has been on the show a lot. From the assassins sent to kill Dany and her brother early on to Oberyn Martell agreeing to fight the Mountain to gain the truth of what happened to his sister Elia (who was the wife of Rhaegar before the annulment) and Elia's children with Rhaegar.Also, did anyone catch Gilly reading to Sam the account of the septon annulling a marriage of a Rhaegar in Dorne? I can't believe he didn't perk up to that. Dany's older brother's marriage to Ellia Martel was ANNULLED. Do you know what this means? Jon Snow is NOT a ****. Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark...It also means he officially became the rightful heir to the Iron Throne yesterday as the only surviving natural-born child of the crown prince. Heh.
Yes exactly. His birth order would come first, which means Dany is technically rebelling against him by proclaiming herself queen lol.
Wasn't Jon Ned's kid. Or was that just the story Ned told to uphold his sister's good name? Is Brandon the only one who knows that? KInd of hazy on this part.
You also saw something similar with Cersei going around and killing all of Robert's ****s, with Gendry presumably being the only one that got away. In a harsh world such as Westeros, in order to truly establish yourself as ruler, you need to eliminate all those that could possibly challenge you with a birthright.
Gendry may have been the only one to get away in KIng's landing but Robert would have had plenty of ****s across the seven kingdoms.
So there's Jon, Jorah, Hound, Berric, Thoros, Gendry and Tormund going beyond the wall.Well, they're missing Euron, Bron, Jaime Lannister and Brienne. But yeah, more or less.
This has to be the Golden State Warriors of this world when it comes to fighting, right? Or are we missing someone?
Speaking of the Wall and wights, I'm unsure why anyone thinks Cersei needs proof that wights exist. She has on in her own Kingsguard.
First, the Mountain didn't actually die or at least there has been no evidence he did. Second, there is a very big difference between someone like the Mountain, Jon, and Berric and the army of the dead.So there's Jon, Jorah, Hound, Berric, Thoros, Gendry and Tormund going beyond the wall.Well, they're missing Euron, Bron, Jaime Lannister and Brienne. But yeah, more or less.
This has to be the Golden State Warriors of this world when it comes to fighting, right? Or are we missing someone?
Speaking of the Wall and wights, I'm unsure why anyone thinks Cersei needs proof that wights exist. She has on in her own Kingsguard.
I don't think the people of King's Landing would be comfortable knowing that they have a zombie Kingsguard.
We don't actually know whether he died or not. I'd say he did die before Qyburn raised him. And whether or not the good people of King's Landing are comfortable with that, I think Cersei should be aware that bringing people from the dead is not necessarily an outlandish idea.First, the Mountain didn't actually die or at least there has been no evidence he did. Second, there is a very big difference between someone like the Mountain, Jon, and Berric and the army of the dead.So there's Jon, Jorah, Hound, Berric, Thoros, Gendry and Tormund going beyond the wall.Well, they're missing Euron, Bron, Jaime Lannister and Brienne. But yeah, more or less.
This has to be the Golden State Warriors of this world when it comes to fighting, right? Or are we missing someone?
Speaking of the Wall and wights, I'm unsure why anyone thinks Cersei needs proof that wights exist. She has on in her own Kingsguard.
I don't think the people of King's Landing would be comfortable knowing that they have a zombie Kingsguard.
He could have died, but there is a lot of evidence of him screaming in pain and nothing that shows or says he actually died (in the books or show). If he didn't actually die though, then Cersei and no one else would have any reason to believe you could come back from the dead (I mean look at Dany's reaction and questioning of Jon).We don't actually know whether he died or not. I'd say he did die before Qyburn raised him. And whether or not the good people of King's Landing are comfortable with that, I think Cersei should be aware that bringing people from the dead is not necessarily an outlandish idea.First, the Mountain didn't actually die or at least there has been no evidence he did. Second, there is a very big difference between someone like the Mountain, Jon, and Berric and the army of the dead.So there's Jon, Jorah, Hound, Berric, Thoros, Gendry and Tormund going beyond the wall.Well, they're missing Euron, Bron, Jaime Lannister and Brienne. But yeah, more or less.
This has to be the Golden State Warriors of this world when it comes to fighting, right? Or are we missing someone?
Speaking of the Wall and wights, I'm unsure why anyone thinks Cersei needs proof that wights exist. She has on in her own Kingsguard.
I don't think the people of King's Landing would be comfortable knowing that they have a zombie Kingsguard.
Haven't read the books in quite a while but this is about the show. Stannis' claim to the throne was that Joffrey and the others weren't Robert's children. Joffrey confronted Cersei about the rumors and about Robert's **** children in the scene where she ends up slapping him. Regardless of whether or not he believed the rumors, Joffrey most certainly had a reason to kill them since they could have been used by anyone at any time to try to usurp the throne.In the books Cersei gave the order. I think they might have changed it for the show, but that change makes no sense as Joffrey didn't know he was not Robert's son and thus would have had no reason to kill what he believed to be his **** brothers. Cersei on the other hand, knew Joffrey was not Robert's son and thus had everyone reason to eliminate Robert's actual children.Cersei didn't order Robert's ****s to be killed. Joffrey did.Jon is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. They showed his birth in a flashback last season at the Tower of Joy. Ned and Howland Reed (Meera's father) went to rescue the presumed to have been kidnapped Lyanna from Rhaegar, only to arrive as Lyanna was giving birth to Jon (it was that kidnapping that actually started Robert's Rebellion). Lyanna died in child birth and as she was dying whispered something to Ned, which most presume was her request to protect Jon. Ned swore Howland to secrecy and took Jon home as his ****. Thus, protecting him from Robert Baretheon who made it his mission to kill all Targaryens. Robert's mission to kill the Targaryen heirs has been on the show a lot. From the assassins sent to kill Dany and her brother early on to Oberyn Martell agreeing to fight the Mountain to gain the truth of what happened to his sister Elia (who was the wife of Rhaegar before the annulment) and Elia's children with Rhaegar.Also, did anyone catch Gilly reading to Sam the account of the septon annulling a marriage of a Rhaegar in Dorne? I can't believe he didn't perk up to that. Dany's older brother's marriage to Ellia Martel was ANNULLED. Do you know what this means? Jon Snow is NOT a ****. Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark...It also means he officially became the rightful heir to the Iron Throne yesterday as the only surviving natural-born child of the crown prince. Heh.
Yes exactly. His birth order would come first, which means Dany is technically rebelling against him by proclaiming herself queen lol.
Wasn't Jon Ned's kid. Or was that just the story Ned told to uphold his sister's good name? Is Brandon the only one who knows that? KInd of hazy on this part.
You also saw something similar with Cersei going around and killing all of Robert's ****s, with Gendry presumably being the only one that got away. In a harsh world such as Westeros, in order to truly establish yourself as ruler, you need to eliminate all those that could possibly challenge you with a birthright.
Gendry may have been the only one to get away in KIng's landing but Robert would have had plenty of ****s across the seven kingdoms.
According to the prophecy Robert had 16 children. I believe Cersei accounted for all of them except Gendry (though I don't recall if she thought he was accounted for or just hoped he was dead and would never show up).
Also, did anyone catch Gilly reading to Sam the account of the septon annulling a marriage of a Rhaegar in Dorne? I can't believe he didn't perk up to that. Dany's older brother's marriage to Ellia Martel was ANNULLED. Do you know what this means? Jon Snow is NOT a ****. Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark...It also means he officially became the rightful heir to the Iron Throne yesterday as the only surviving natural-born child of the crown prince. Heh.
Yes exactly. His birth order would come first, which means Dany is technically rebelling against him by proclaiming herself queen lol.
Wasn't Jon Ned's kid. Or was that just the story Ned told to uphold his sister's good name? Is Brandon the only one who knows that? KInd of hazy on this part.
I've read too many fan theories at this point, so disclaimer that I might be adding things that didn't happen in the show. But we do know that Jon is said to be Ned's **** that he brought home after Robert's Rebellion. Ned tell's Jon he will tell him about his mother next time they meet, but get's his head lopped off. Rhaegar Targaryen "kidnapped" Lyanna Stark which is what started Robert's Rebellion. You see young Ned go to get her back at the Tower of Joy in Bran's vision. You see Lyanna die in a bed and make Ned promise to protect her son (I think she says "Jon" specifically?) Now we are being told Rhaegar had his marriage annulled, which could mean Jon isn't just a **** Targaryen, he's actually the legitimate one, and in line to get the throne BEFORE Dany would. Did I miss anything in the show?
Latest episode (S7, E5) spoilers below;I don't mind the teleporting but can we change people's out fits or hair styles to show time passed.
So the "teleport"/"fast travel" method was in full display tonight, eh? We had Jaime and Bronn travel from Highgarden to King's Landing, Davos and Tyrion travel from Dragonstone to King's Landing AND back, and Jon's group travel from Dragonstone to the Wall all at different times in the episode. I don't really mind it, but after not employing this method of travel during the first six seasons, it's strange to do it now. That's the price to pay for shortened seasons, I guess.
I also don't quite get this quest to capture a wight. I can't see any way of it working, and it doesn't even seem like a feasible option that they would consider. It also has a Cersei trap written all over it. I don't really like criticizing show's that I'm this into, but to me this part of the plot seems like poor writing that I'm not really buying into.
Granted, I'm loving the dynamic of this group: Jon, Tormund, Jorah, Davos, Clegane, Gendry, Dondarion, and Thoros of Myr? That will be entertaining north of the Wall!
Spoiler
And no longer a bas... is official in show (to the viewers at least). That is kind of a big deal.
Can hardly wait for some more action. Have to admit the previous episode made me think, if the scorpions can ground a dragon then dragons are toast if the wight giants can still use their bows.
That's funny, I was just reading a theory suggesting that, and in one of the first episodes it actyallly showed one of the giant wights holding a bow. Have to think that's more than a coinicidence, but it would also require Daenerys making a trip to the wall in the next two episodes.
And then the Night King could resurrect it and use it to melt the wall. HBO actually put out a promotional poster months before this season that had the Night King riding a dragon sitting atop the Wall. It'd be strange of them to actually foreshadow things that much, but there's certainly a possibility that's how the Army of the Dead gets past the Wall.
EDIT: Here's the poster. Supposedly it's Viserion, too, though that'd require other dragon riders to be identified, as well. Seems like too much to accomplish in the final two episodes.
(https://www.thereportertimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Game-of-Thrones-Season-7-ice-dragon.jpg)
Well, looks like all that speculation over who the three dragonriders would be was time well spent ;)
Crazy episode. The show is turning into more and more of a cartoon but it's a fun cartoon at least.
Theory suggests Bran is the Night King. It's actually plausible.Nah, looks mostly like clickbait nonsense.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/living/4254025/game-of-thrones-theory-bran-night-king/amp/
Theory suggests Bran is the Night King. It's actually plausible.Nah, looks mostly like clickbait nonsense.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/living/4254025/game-of-thrones-theory-bran-night-king/amp/
Well, looks like all that speculation over who the three dragonriders would be was time well spent ;)
Crazy episode. The show is turning into more and more of a cartoon but it's a fun cartoon at least.
It sure is fun to watch but compared to previous seasons it is not up to par.
Bran was nowhere to be seen for long stretches in the middle of the series. And to me he's always been mainly a convenient plot device to seamlessly introduce information that would otherwise be hard to weave into the show. Plus, the "justification" of this theory makes no sense whatsoever, and doesn't line up with the supposed "proof" from the series.Theory suggests Bran is the Night King. It's actually plausible.Nah, looks mostly like clickbait nonsense.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/living/4254025/game-of-thrones-theory-bran-night-king/amp/
I'm not sure. They devoted too much time on Bran throughout the show for his role simply to tell Jon who is parents were. They also devoted time to the children of the forest and the creation of the Night King when if that were going nowhere they could've been better served showing flashbacks of the Mad King and/or Rhaeger. The Night King also seemed eager to be the one to kill the 3 Eyed Raven, and seems to have a special interest in both Jon Snow and young Bran. The Night King has to be someone of great importance. I'm doubtful it was simply the one shown to be sacrificed.
Jon Snow having to kill his brother/cousin/Bran/Night King to ultimately destroy the Army of Dead is a lot more meaningful than just killing a random person.
This season has really drove home how good George RR Martin is at writing these books. Since the show has passed the books the show runners have had trouble tying together plot lines and having characters act realistically in line with what we know about them.
Arya turning against Sansa is nonsense. Arya has been fighting to get home to her family her entire life, now she is going to threaten her only sister? That she had all this training, finding out the truth from the faithless men that she wouldn't figure out Littlefinger's plot is ridiculous.
Also I would have much rather had Jon fly to safety on the back of Rhaegal rather than be saved by Benjin.
This season has really drove home how good George RR Martin is at writing these books. Since the show has passed the books the show runners have had trouble tying together plot lines and having characters act realistically in line with what we know about them.
Arya turning against Sansa is nonsense. Arya has been fighting to get home to her family her entire life, now she is going to threaten her only sister? That she had all this training, finding out the truth from the faithless men that she wouldn't figure out Littlefinger's plot is ridiculous.
Also I would have much rather had Jon fly to safety on the back of Rhaegal rather than be saved by Benjin.
That last bit definitely had some deus ex machine to it.
@fairweatherfan , @Evantime34 couldn't agree more. Unlike most i liked the first episodes cause it looked like they tried to keep things to together but lately everything seems to be rushed.
I still enjoy watching it though
Bran was nowhere to be seen for long stretches in the middle of the series. And to me he's always been mainly a convenient plot device to seamlessly introduce information that would otherwise be hard to weave into the show. Plus, the "justification" of this theory makes no sense whatsoever, and doesn't line up with the supposed "proof" from the series.Theory suggests Bran is the Night King. It's actually plausible.Nah, looks mostly like clickbait nonsense.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/living/4254025/game-of-thrones-theory-bran-night-king/amp/
I'm not sure. They devoted too much time on Bran throughout the show for his role simply to tell Jon who is parents were. They also devoted time to the children of the forest and the creation of the Night King when if that were going nowhere they could've been better served showing flashbacks of the Mad King and/or Rhaeger. The Night King also seemed eager to be the one to kill the 3 Eyed Raven, and seems to have a special interest in both Jon Snow and young Bran. The Night King has to be someone of great importance. I'm doubtful it was simply the one shown to be sacrificed.
Jon Snow having to kill his brother/cousin/Bran/Night King to ultimately destroy the Army of Dead is a lot more meaningful than just killing a random person.
After he was killed, it was discovered that he had been making human sacrifices to the Others - the White Walkers - and all records of him were destroyed, and uttering his name was forbidden, so it became lost to history. Nevertheless, it is believed he may have been a Bolton, a Magnar of Skagos, an Umber, a Flint, a Norrey, or a Woodfoot, though Old Nan claims to know a version of the tale where he was actually a Stark, brother to the King-in-the-North, named Bran.
This season has really drove home how good George RR Martin is at writing these books. Since the show has passed the books the show runners have had trouble tying together plot lines and having characters act realistically in line with what we know about them.
That last bit definitely had some deus ex machine to it.
It's becoming a trend.... Not a very clever one. Since the Battle of the ****s it's the 4th time someone happens save the day literally on the last second. Not very inspired writing.
Point is that I wouldn't be so dismissive of things. It is very possible that could happen and would make the Snow vs Night King clash more riveting.Sorry, still looks like a ton of hogwash. Also, his identity seems largely immaterial. How he came about has always been a bigger question in the show than who he was -- and that's been answered already. This issue appears to mostly interest viral video makers on the web.
Why not wait for all that dragon stone to be mined and forged into weapons before prancing north of the wall with the motley gaggle of misfits? All this urgency buffet to prove the walkers existence to Cersei?Well, it's not supposed to make sense. And it largely doesn't. Esquire saved me the writing of a wall of text on this:
Latest episode (S7, E5) spoilers below;I don't mind the teleporting but can we change people's out fits or hair styles to show time passed.
So the "teleport"/"fast travel" method was in full display tonight, eh? We had Jaime and Bronn travel from Highgarden to King's Landing, Davos and Tyrion travel from Dragonstone to King's Landing AND back, and Jon's group travel from Dragonstone to the Wall all at different times in the episode. I don't really mind it, but after not employing this method of travel during the first six seasons, it's strange to do it now. That's the price to pay for shortened seasons, I guess.
I also don't quite get this quest to capture a wight. I can't see any way of it working, and it doesn't even seem like a feasible option that they would consider. It also has a Cersei trap written all over it. I don't really like criticizing show's that I'm this into, but to me this part of the plot seems like poor writing that I'm not really buying into.
Granted, I'm loving the dynamic of this group: Jon, Tormund, Jorah, Davos, Clegane, Gendry, Dondarion, and Thoros of Myr? That will be entertaining north of the Wall!
Spoiler
And no longer a bas... is official in show (to the viewers at least). That is kind of a big deal.
Can hardly wait for some more action. Have to admit the previous episode made me think, if the scorpions can ground a dragon then dragons are toast if the wight giants can still use their bows.
That's funny, I was just reading a theory suggesting that, and in one of the first episodes it actyallly showed one of the giant wights holding a bow. Have to think that's more than a coinicidence, but it would also require Daenerys making a trip to the wall in the next two episodes.
And then the Night King could resurrect it and use it to melt the wall. HBO actually put out a promotional poster months before this season that had the Night King riding a dragon sitting atop the Wall. It'd be strange of them to actually foreshadow things that much, but there's certainly a possibility that's how the Army of the Dead gets past the Wall.
EDIT: Here's the poster. Supposedly it's Viserion, too, though that'd require other dragon riders to be identified, as well. Seems like too much to accomplish in the final two episodes.
(https://www.thereportertimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Game-of-Thrones-Season-7-ice-dragon.jpg)
Well, I thought the Giant's bow foreshadowing entailed it would be a Giant to take Viserion down, but I guess the Night King makes more sense. It could be that one of the Giants gets Rhaegal or Drogon, but I doubt it.
I'm now kind of expecting two things: 1) Jon to become a dragon rider on Rhaegal (named after his true father), and 2) the Night King uses Viserion to melt the wall, and the Army of the Dead goes past the Wall for the big spoiler leading into the final season. That's going to be one hell of a cliffhanger, especially since it's not supposed to debut until 2019 sometime.
Also, does the flaming sword that Beric was wielding represent Lightbringer? I couldn't figure that out.
After the undead polar bear attack, there was at least one dead and Thoros was clearly going to die. So there was no reason to go any further as they'd soon have undead to show Cersei.Why not wait for all that dragon stone to be mined and forged into weapons before prancing north of the wall with the motley gaggle of misfits? All this urgency buffet to prove the walkers existence to Cersei?Well, it's not supposed to make sense. And it largely doesn't. Esquire saved me the writing of a wall of text on this:
http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/news/a57100/game-of-thrones-season-7-episode-6-beyond-the-wall/
i kind of agree with youBran was nowhere to be seen for long stretches in the middle of the series. And to me he's always been mainly a convenient plot device to seamlessly introduce information that would otherwise be hard to weave into the show. Plus, the "justification" of this theory makes no sense whatsoever, and doesn't line up with the supposed "proof" from the series.Theory suggests Bran is the Night King. It's actually plausible.Nah, looks mostly like clickbait nonsense.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/living/4254025/game-of-thrones-theory-bran-night-king/amp/
I'm not sure. They devoted too much time on Bran throughout the show for his role simply to tell Jon who is parents were. They also devoted time to the children of the forest and the creation of the Night King when if that were going nowhere they could've been better served showing flashbacks of the Mad King and/or Rhaeger. The Night King also seemed eager to be the one to kill the 3 Eyed Raven, and seems to have a special interest in both Jon Snow and young Bran. The Night King has to be someone of great importance. I'm doubtful it was simply the one shown to be sacrificed.
Jon Snow having to kill his brother/cousin/Bran/Night King to ultimately destroy the Army of Dead is a lot more meaningful than just killing a random person.
The Night King didn't even exist in the books as depicted in the show. There's also this:QuoteAfter he was killed, it was discovered that he had been making human sacrifices to the Others - the White Walkers - and all records of him were destroyed, and uttering his name was forbidden, so it became lost to history. Nevertheless, it is believed he may have been a Bolton, a Magnar of Skagos, an Umber, a Flint, a Norrey, or a Woodfoot, though Old Nan claims to know a version of the tale where he was actually a Stark, brother to the King-in-the-North, named Bran.
Starts at 5:15
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y1w4Fvz3S4
Point is that I wouldn't be so dismissive of things. It is very possible that could happen and would make the Snow vs Night King clash more riveting.
hey now, let's not think too logically about this. ;)After the undead polar bear attack, there was at least one dead and Thoros was clearly going to die. So there was no reason to go any further as they'd soon have undead to show Cersei.Why not wait for all that dragon stone to be mined and forged into weapons before prancing north of the wall with the motley gaggle of misfits? All this urgency buffet to prove the walkers existence to Cersei?Well, it's not supposed to make sense. And it largely doesn't. Esquire saved me the writing of a wall of text on this:
http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/news/a57100/game-of-thrones-season-7-episode-6-beyond-the-wall/
Not sure what they expect of Cersei anyway. Can't see her letting her remaining troops go north. Can't see her giving them wildfire. Unless of course, there is some way for her to turn it to her advantage.
Another point is why did the Walkers just sit there waiting. They could have used those ice spears to take out Jon and his crew. Did they know the dragons would come?
Also why would Sansa send Brienne south? She'd just had a conversation with Littlefinger about Brienne defending Sansa if Arya threatened her.
So I'll admit, I had never watched GoT until last summer and watched ALL OF Seasons 1-6 in the previous summer (2016) LOL, so maybe I missed something here and there in the rush.
But does the Night King have similar powers to Bran?
Because the Night King didn't seem surprised to see the dragons there (as if he knew they were going to come), and then during the battle, just readied his spear and ultimately got the dragon he wanted. Was that his grand plan all along? How would he have just known the dragons were coming?
- He wargs dead things on an immense scale.
The dead don't just spontaneously rise north of the Wall. A White Walker needs to be around to raise them.After the undead polar bear attack, there was at least one dead and Thoros was clearly going to die. So there was no reason to go any further as they'd soon have undead to show Cersei.1. good point on the having someone already dead that they could have used. My wife and I wondered something very similar when we saw it.
hey now, let's not think too logically about this. ;)After the undead polar bear attack, there was at least one dead and Thoros was clearly going to die. So there was no reason to go any further as they'd soon have undead to show Cersei.Why not wait for all that dragon stone to be mined and forged into weapons before prancing north of the wall with the motley gaggle of misfits? All this urgency buffet to prove the walkers existence to Cersei?Well, it's not supposed to make sense. And it largely doesn't. Esquire saved me the writing of a wall of text on this:
http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/news/a57100/game-of-thrones-season-7-episode-6-beyond-the-wall/
Not sure what they expect of Cersei anyway. Can't see her letting her remaining troops go north. Can't see her giving them wildfire. Unless of course, there is some way for her to turn it to her advantage.
Another point is why did the Walkers just sit there waiting. They could have used those ice spears to take out Jon and his crew. Did they know the dragons would come?
Also why would Sansa send Brienne south? She'd just had a conversation with Littlefinger about Brienne defending Sansa if Arya threatened her.
1. good point on the having someone already dead that they could have used. My wife and I wondered something very similar when we saw it.
2. I figured the walkers were held back due to so many falling through the ice. of course I wondered why the ice was that thin when it's constantly freezing there. the fact it firmed up within a short time where it could support the dead on their second rush made no sense. also, once the Hound broke the ice with the hammer, why didn't he break more ice to limit the access points to the rock for the dead? would have been really helpful for them. also, if he could break the ice with one swing, how was it strong enough to support that many dead?
3. sending Brienne away made no sense at all. Arya falling for Littlefinger's ploy the past 2 shows has made no sense either. keep waiting for Arya to just end Littlefinger but inexplicably she's left him alone.
also still trying to understand why Dany didn't fly back to Dragonstone rather than take a boat. will take exceedingly long considering this whole excursion required expediency to get Cersei's assistance.
After the undead polar bear attack, there was at least one dead and Thoros was clearly going to die. So there was no reason to go any further as they'd soon have undead to show Cersei.Why not wait for all that dragon stone to be mined and forged into weapons before prancing north of the wall with the motley gaggle of misfits? All this urgency buffet to prove the walkers existence to Cersei?Well, it's not supposed to make sense. And it largely doesn't. Esquire saved me the writing of a wall of text on this:
http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/news/a57100/game-of-thrones-season-7-episode-6-beyond-the-wall/
Another point is why did the Walkers just sit there waiting. They could have used those ice spears to take out Jon and his crew. Did they know the dragons would come?
Also why would Sansa send Brienne south? She'd just had a conversation with Littlefinger about Brienne defending Sansa if Arya threatened her.
hey now, let's not think too logically about this. ;)After the undead polar bear attack, there was at least one dead and Thoros was clearly going to die. So there was no reason to go any further as they'd soon have undead to show Cersei.Why not wait for all that dragon stone to be mined and forged into weapons before prancing north of the wall with the motley gaggle of misfits? All this urgency buffet to prove the walkers existence to Cersei?Well, it's not supposed to make sense. And it largely doesn't. Esquire saved me the writing of a wall of text on this:
http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/news/a57100/game-of-thrones-season-7-episode-6-beyond-the-wall/
Not sure what they expect of Cersei anyway. Can't see her letting her remaining troops go north. Can't see her giving them wildfire. Unless of course, there is some way for her to turn it to her advantage.
Another point is why did the Walkers just sit there waiting. They could have used those ice spears to take out Jon and his crew. Did they know the dragons would come?
Also why would Sansa send Brienne south? She'd just had a conversation with Littlefinger about Brienne defending Sansa if Arya threatened her.
1. good point on the having someone already dead that they could have used. My wife and I wondered something very similar when we saw it.
2. I figured the walkers were held back due to so many falling through the ice. of course I wondered why the ice was that thin when it's constantly freezing there. the fact it firmed up within a short time where it could support the dead on their second rush made no sense. also, once the Hound broke the ice with the hammer, why didn't he break more ice to limit the access points to the rock for the dead? would have been really helpful for them. also, if he could break the ice with one swing, how was it strong enough to support that many dead?
3. sending Brienne away made no sense at all. Arya falling for Littlefinger's ploy the past 2 shows has made no sense either. keep waiting for Arya to just end Littlefinger but inexplicably she's left him alone.
also still trying to understand why Dany didn't fly back to Dragonstone rather than take a boat. will take exceedingly long considering this whole excursion required expediency to get Cersei's assistance.
I thought the rationale for sending Brienne away was because she'd protect Arya. Between the sparring session with Arya and Brienne and Arya being a "miniature" Brienne in terms of character (female out of her element), I thought they were hinting that she was sending Brienne away so that she couldn't protect Arya, since she'd more than likely take Arya's side over Sansa's, especially if Arya was outmatched.
Granted, I'm still not falling for it. I still think Arya and Sansa are playing Littlefinger instead of falling into his trap. Sansa regularly talks about how untrustworthy Littlefinger is, and Arya is as sneaky and clever as they come now after her Faceless Man training. It doesn't seem like they'd both fall for it.
That would also be fairly poetic if Littlefinger ultimately met his demise via one of his shady plans being turned around on him.
What about the initial two that attacked Mormont at Castle Black? No White Walker was around to raise them.After the undead polar bear attack, there was at least one dead and Thoros was clearly going to die. So there was no reason to go any further as they'd soon have undead to show Cersei.Why not wait for all that dragon stone to be mined and forged into weapons before prancing north of the wall with the motley gaggle of misfits? All this urgency buffet to prove the walkers existence to Cersei?Well, it's not supposed to make sense. And it largely doesn't. Esquire saved me the writing of a wall of text on this:
http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/news/a57100/game-of-thrones-season-7-episode-6-beyond-the-wall/
They don't just come back automatically like a zombie movie, they need a White Walker to raise them. And I think all the redshirt guys just disappeared when they died. :D
After the episode aired, fans vented frustrations online that Gendry running back to Eas****ch, sending a raven to Daenerys, and Daenerys arriving to save the day with her dragons all happened far too quickly. Alan Taylor, who directed Beyond the Wall, explained how the production team approached the timeline during filming.
We were aware that timing was getting a little hazy, Taylor told Variety. Weve got Gendry running back, ravens flying a certain distance, dragons having to fly back a certain distance In terms of the emotional experience, [Jon and company] sort of spent one dark night on the island in terms of storytelling moments. We tried to hedge it a little bit with the eternal twilight up there north of The Wall. I think there was some effort to fudge the timeline a little bit by not declaring exactly how long we were there. I think that worked for some people, for other people it didnt. They seemed to be very concerned about how fast a raven can fly but theres a thing called plausible impossibilities, which is what you try to achieve, rather than impossible plausibilities. So I think we were straining plausibility a little bit, but I hope the storys momentum carries over some of that stuff.
Its cool that the show is so important to so many people that its being scrutinized so thoroughly, he continued. If the show was struggling, Id be worried about those concerns, but the show seems to be doing pretty well so its OK to have people with those concerns.
The dead don't just spontaneously rise north of the Wall. A White Walker needs to be around to raise them.
so a white walker doesn't raise them. They can be raised at pretty much any point in time as long as they aren't burned.QuoteThe dead don't just spontaneously rise north of the Wall. A White Walker needs to be around to raise them.
Then why do they burn their dead? I am pretty sure the book says it is to prevent them from rising.
yup, pretty accurate summation.QuoteAfter the episode aired, fans vented frustrations online that Gendry running back to Eas****ch, sending a raven to Daenerys, and Daenerys arriving to save the day with her dragons all happened far too quickly. Alan Taylor, who directed Beyond the Wall, explained how the production team approached the timeline during filming.
We were aware that timing was getting a little hazy, Taylor told Variety. Weve got Gendry running back, ravens flying a certain distance, dragons having to fly back a certain distance In terms of the emotional experience, [Jon and company] sort of spent one dark night on the island in terms of storytelling moments. We tried to hedge it a little bit with the eternal twilight up there north of The Wall. I think there was some effort to fudge the timeline a little bit by not declaring exactly how long we were there. I think that worked for some people, for other people it didnt. They seemed to be very concerned about how fast a raven can fly but theres a thing called plausible impossibilities, which is what you try to achieve, rather than impossible plausibilities. So I think we were straining plausibility a little bit, but I hope the storys momentum carries over some of that stuff.
Its cool that the show is so important to so many people that its being scrutinized so thoroughly, he continued. If the show was struggling, Id be worried about those concerns, but the show seems to be doing pretty well so its OK to have people with those concerns.
In other words, "Sure it's bad storytelling, but ratings are what matter".
What about the initial two that attacked Mormont at Castle Black? No White Walker was around to raise them.After the undead polar bear attack, there was at least one dead and Thoros was clearly going to die. So there was no reason to go any further as they'd soon have undead to show Cersei.Why not wait for all that dragon stone to be mined and forged into weapons before prancing north of the wall with the motley gaggle of misfits? All this urgency buffet to prove the walkers existence to Cersei?Well, it's not supposed to make sense. And it largely doesn't. Esquire saved me the writing of a wall of text on this:
http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/news/a57100/game-of-thrones-season-7-episode-6-beyond-the-wall/
They don't just come back automatically like a zombie movie, they need a White Walker to raise them. And I think all the redshirt guys just disappeared when they died. :D
yup, pretty accurate summation.QuoteAfter the episode aired, fans vented frustrations online that Gendry running back to Eas****ch, sending a raven to Daenerys, and Daenerys arriving to save the day with her dragons all happened far too quickly. Alan Taylor, who directed Beyond the Wall, explained how the production team approached the timeline during filming.
We were aware that timing was getting a little hazy, Taylor told Variety. Weve got Gendry running back, ravens flying a certain distance, dragons having to fly back a certain distance In terms of the emotional experience, [Jon and company] sort of spent one dark night on the island in terms of storytelling moments. We tried to hedge it a little bit with the eternal twilight up there north of The Wall. I think there was some effort to fudge the timeline a little bit by not declaring exactly how long we were there. I think that worked for some people, for other people it didnt. They seemed to be very concerned about how fast a raven can fly but theres a thing called plausible impossibilities, which is what you try to achieve, rather than impossible plausibilities. So I think we were straining plausibility a little bit, but I hope the storys momentum carries over some of that stuff.
Its cool that the show is so important to so many people that its being scrutinized so thoroughly, he continued. If the show was struggling, Id be worried about those concerns, but the show seems to be doing pretty well so its OK to have people with those concerns.
In other words, "Sure it's bad storytelling, but ratings are what matter".
I think that was probably the biggest disappointment in the story was that it was obvious for the past couple of episodes that Dany would bring the dragons north of the wall to support/save Jon. the timing was just awful in how it came about. also, that last-second save of Jon again and the sacrifice made (why didn't they both just ride off?) made no sense.
I was under the impression that the Great Other raises them he then wargs them.Quote- He wargs dead things on an immense scale.
He reanimates them, I think rather than warg.
The show amounts to fan fiction at this point in terms of writing. The rapid raven was beyond silly, they are just trying to finish it not be the same quality.
But, if they extended the season to 10 episodes a lot of the extra stuff wouldn't have been the expensive CGI stuff. It could have been a lot more plot development, good character conversations, etc. For example, the whole Gendry running, raven, dragons coming thing could have been spread out over 2 episodes with other scenes elsewhere showing the time lapse. Like they could have had a scene at Eas****ch where they sent a raven to Winterfell to let them know Jon and others were going north of the wall. They then could have had a scene at Winterfell with Arya, Sansa, and Bran discussing the stupidity of that plan (or whatever). They could have also shown the motley crew doing a lot more things, having conversations, etc. for a lot longer to really show how long they were on that island. They clearly tried to do it, but the rushed nature of it led to it not looking very long. They also could have had some set up conversations about how fast ravens and dragons actually fly. It might have been only a day for a raven and a couple of hours for the dragons, but they just never set any of that stuff up so it looks ridiculous as filmed when it certainly all could have been plausible with 10 to 15 extra minutes of filming. And none of that stuff requires much in the way of budget.yup, pretty accurate summation.QuoteAfter the episode aired, fans vented frustrations online that Gendry running back to Eas****ch, sending a raven to Daenerys, and Daenerys arriving to save the day with her dragons all happened far too quickly. Alan Taylor, who directed Beyond the Wall, explained how the production team approached the timeline during filming.
We were aware that timing was getting a little hazy, Taylor told Variety. Weve got Gendry running back, ravens flying a certain distance, dragons having to fly back a certain distance In terms of the emotional experience, [Jon and company] sort of spent one dark night on the island in terms of storytelling moments. We tried to hedge it a little bit with the eternal twilight up there north of The Wall. I think there was some effort to fudge the timeline a little bit by not declaring exactly how long we were there. I think that worked for some people, for other people it didnt. They seemed to be very concerned about how fast a raven can fly but theres a thing called plausible impossibilities, which is what you try to achieve, rather than impossible plausibilities. So I think we were straining plausibility a little bit, but I hope the storys momentum carries over some of that stuff.
Its cool that the show is so important to so many people that its being scrutinized so thoroughly, he continued. If the show was struggling, Id be worried about those concerns, but the show seems to be doing pretty well so its OK to have people with those concerns.
In other words, "Sure it's bad storytelling, but ratings are what matter".
I think that was probably the biggest disappointment in the story was that it was obvious for the past couple of episodes that Dany would bring the dragons north of the wall to support/save Jon. the timing was just awful in how it came about. also, that last-second save of Jon again and the sacrifice made (why didn't they both just ride off?) made no sense.
The entire Superfriends Wight Walk thing was very dumb and very rushed. Wasn't it just midway through last episode that Jon decided to go get a wight in the first place?
It also would've made more sense for Rhaegon to double back and get Jon - we've already seen the dragons respond to him - than the goofy Benjen save. Would've made surviving hypothermia more plausible too.
I think 10 episodes would've made more sense story-wise too, but I think it's a budget issue more than a story choice. All those CGI dragon battles aren't cheap.
QuoteAfter the episode aired, fans vented frustrations online that Gendry running back to Eas****ch, sending a raven to Daenerys, and Daenerys arriving to save the day with her dragons all happened far too quickly. Alan Taylor, who directed Beyond the Wall, explained how the production team approached the timeline during filming.
We were aware that timing was getting a little hazy, Taylor told Variety. Weve got Gendry running back, ravens flying a certain distance, dragons having to fly back a certain distance In terms of the emotional experience, [Jon and company] sort of spent one dark night on the island in terms of storytelling moments. We tried to hedge it a little bit with the eternal twilight up there north of The Wall. I think there was some effort to fudge the timeline a little bit by not declaring exactly how long we were there. I think that worked for some people, for other people it didnt. They seemed to be very concerned about how fast a raven can fly but theres a thing called plausible impossibilities, which is what you try to achieve, rather than impossible plausibilities. So I think we were straining plausibility a little bit, but I hope the storys momentum carries over some of that stuff.
Its cool that the show is so important to so many people that its being scrutinized so thoroughly, he continued. If the show was struggling, Id be worried about those concerns, but the show seems to be doing pretty well so its OK to have people with those concerns.
In other words, "Sure it's bad storytelling, but ratings are what matter".
You're right - at least not that we know of but the White Walkers are usually very conspicuous. I suppose they could've rezzed them earlier and forced them to stay still until night, but that one doesn't fit with the rest we've seen so far.I thought wights were supposed to be nocturnal to begin with.
I mean, questioning the believability of travel distances in a show about dragons and zombies and white walkers seems a little silly - but part of what has made it a fun show is that, under the circumstances, it seems pretty believable.I don't think so. All works of fiction have their established internal set of rules. In GoT, zombies and dragons are real. Warped time travel wasn't, at least not until they decided to go off the book. They could have established alternate rules for time and space early on, but they didn't. Doing it now hurts the credibility of the show.
If you look at a map of Westeros, it seems like Dragonstone is a lot closer to Eas****ch than Highgarden. To me, that was way more unbelievable. They would've had to take the Dothraki to Highgarden (or along the road to King's Landing) in boats, right? How could they get to Highgarden without sailing ALL THE WAY around Dorne (the bottom of the continent) and then getting off the boats and riding to wherever the loot train was.
You're right - at least not that we know of but the White Walkers are usually very conspicuous. I suppose they could've rezzed them earlier and forced them to stay still until night, but that one doesn't fit with the rest we've seen so far.I thought wights were supposed to be nocturnal to begin with.
I mean, questioning the believability of travel distances in a show about dragons and zombies and white walkers seems a little silly - but part of what has made it a fun show is that, under the circumstances, it seems pretty believable.I don't think so. All works of fiction have their established internal set of rules. In GoT, zombies and dragons are real. Warped time travel wasn't, at least not until they decided to go off the book. They could have established alternate rules for time and space early on, but they didn't. Doing it now hurts the credibility of the show.
I wanted to see if anyone besides me actually believed that they were on the island for more than one night? The travel time is one reason. But the biggest second reason for me thinking that it was longer than one night was that some of them were sleeping. There is no way in hell I fall a sleep the first night being surrounded. Now the second night do to exhaustion and the fact the enemy didn't cross the first night I might take that chance to sleep.
If you look at a map of Westeros, it seems like Dragonstone is a lot closer to Eas****ch than Highgarden. To me, that was way more unbelievable. They would've had to take the Dothraki to Highgarden (or along the road to King's Landing) in boats, right? How could they get to Highgarden without sailing ALL THE WAY around Dorne (the bottom of the continent) and then getting off the boats and riding to wherever the loot train was.
This episode they said the dragon attack was in the Blackwater Rush, aka fairly close to King's Landing. Close enough that they made a point of saying the gold wagons were already through the gates. Still basically impossible to land an entire army without anyone being aware they were around.You're right - at least not that we know of but the White Walkers are usually very conspicuous. I suppose they could've rezzed them earlier and forced them to stay still until night, but that one doesn't fit with the rest we've seen so far.I thought wights were supposed to be nocturnal to begin with.
Not that I'm aware of - Hardhome was in the day and the wights definitely hung around the Superfriends for at least a full 24 hours.
Where'd the giant chains come from? And who hooked them to the dragon?well there were plenty of the dead that fell through the ice so they'd have been available to do it. it's not like they'd drown.
Where'd the giant chains come from? And who hooked them to the dragon?
I wanted to see if anyone besides me actually believed that they were on the island for more than one night? The travel time is one reason. But the biggest second reason for me thinking that it was longer than one night was that some of them were sleeping. There is no way in hell I fall a sleep the first night being surrounded. Now the second night do to exhaustion and the fact the enemy didn't cross the first night I might take that chance to sleep.
When I watched the episode I had assumed they were on the island for at least 3 or 4 days before the fighting began. While it was a stretch that Daenerys got there in time, it is plausible https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/6u75t3/lets_do_the_math_on_how_long_it_would_take_a/
The only thing that annoys me about the whole timing is that the Directors could have easily added a line in to address it, such as "We've been stuck here 4-days, and ran out of food this morning. What are our options at this point?"
Has Benjen been stalking them? Pretty unlikely he just shows up then. Unless Gendry sent a raven to him as well.
you're not making it upQuoteHas Benjen been stalking them? Pretty unlikely he just shows up then. Unless Gendry sent a raven to him as well.
Can Bran summons him? I think the prior Three Eyed Raven did, right? Or am I making that up?
QuoteAfter the episode aired, fans vented frustrations online that Gendry running back to Eas****ch, sending a raven to Daenerys, and Daenerys arriving to save the day with her dragons all happened far too quickly. Alan Taylor, who directed Beyond the Wall, explained how the production team approached the timeline during filming.
We were aware that timing was getting a little hazy, Taylor told Variety. Weve got Gendry running back, ravens flying a certain distance, dragons having to fly back a certain distance In terms of the emotional experience, [Jon and company] sort of spent one dark night on the island in terms of storytelling moments. We tried to hedge it a little bit with the eternal twilight up there north of The Wall. I think there was some effort to fudge the timeline a little bit by not declaring exactly how long we were there. I think that worked for some people, for other people it didnt. They seemed to be very concerned about how fast a raven can fly but theres a thing called plausible impossibilities, which is what you try to achieve, rather than impossible plausibilities. So I think we were straining plausibility a little bit, but I hope the storys momentum carries over some of that stuff.
Its cool that the show is so important to so many people that its being scrutinized so thoroughly, he continued. If the show was struggling, Id be worried about those concerns, but the show seems to be doing pretty well so its OK to have people with those concerns.
In other words, "Sure it's bad storytelling, but ratings are what matter".
the thing is, that could have been a week or two later when they pulled the dragon out of the ice. Just because they showed it right after, doesn't mean it actually happened right after.Where'd the giant chains come from? And who hooked them to the dragon?
They keep them around just in case. You never know when you might need them. Like Sam's rope in LOTR.
I was wondering about the mechanIcs of tying the chains to the Dragon as well. Maybe they put all the dead guys who had fallen under water already to work. They might as well do something while they're down there.
I did like the visual of the Wight who the Hound knocked the jaw off of with the stone.
I wanted to see if anyone besides me actually believed that they were on the island for more than one night? The travel time is one reason. But the biggest second reason for me thinking that it was longer than one night was that some of them were sleeping. There is no way in hell I fall a sleep the first night being surrounded. Now the second night do to exhaustion and the fact the enemy didn't cross the first night I might take that chance to sleep.
When I watched the episode I had assumed they were on the island for at least 3 or 4 days before the fighting began. While it was a stretch that Daenerys got there in time, it is plausible https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/6u75t3/lets_do_the_math_on_how_long_it_would_take_a/
The only thing that annoys me about the whole timing is that the Directors could have easily added a line in to address it, such as "We've been stuck here 4-days, and ran out of food this morning. What are our options at this point?"
you're not making it upQuoteHas Benjen been stalking them? Pretty unlikely he just shows up then. Unless Gendry sent a raven to him as well.
Can Bran summons him? I think the prior Three Eyed Raven did, right? Or am I making that up?
and it the ONLY way it makes ANY sense
@green_bballers13
Compared to the previous seasons. The last episodes were one cliché after the other. Totally different from the other seasons where you got plenty of completely unexpected turns of events. Ned died, the red wedding Now you know that someone will save the day.
As I ve said I still enjoy watching it but the story suffers without Martin
I disagree. I don't think the story is suffering. Nor do I think its a big enough deal that you will stop watching it. I do, however, think you are using hyperbole to criticize a widely popular show
QuoteI disagree. I don't think the story is suffering. Nor do I think its a big enough deal that you will stop watching it. I do, however, think you are using hyperbole to criticize a widely popular show
The only way that one would conclude this happening is you have not read the books which you admit, too. I get that they are on a budget to finish the show before salaries come up again because costs would be astronomical.
Do you think the show is as good as it once was? I sure as heck don't. It is still entertaining and fun to watch. But the show feels rushed and the dialogue is not as strong as it used to be in the past. When one bases a show on something, they inherently like the artist's work and believe it has potential. It is bound to suffer a lot without said artist.
Martin's books are not perfect, either. They dwell on storylines that are boring and not integral to the overall plot. The show has helped in that regard.
The all-time dumbest stuff the show has ever done was the Sons of the Harpy aka rich guys with masks and daggers making short work out of the supposedly elite Unsullied.
I thought you were saying that fast travel was pretty believable under the circumstances. Reading is hard.I mean, questioning the believability of travel distances in a show about dragons and zombies and white walkers seems a little silly - but part of what has made it a fun show is that, under the circumstances, it seems pretty believable.I don't think so. All works of fiction have their established internal set of rules. In GoT, zombies and dragons are real. Warped time travel wasn't, at least not until they decided to go off the book. They could have established alternate rules for time and space early on, but they didn't. Doing it now hurts the credibility of the show.
You are always so disagreeable. That's exactly what I said!
Maybe the unhappiness that I'm reading on this blog has to do with the story coming to an end. To this point, I agree.
@green_bballers13
Compared to the previous seasons. The last episodes were one cliché after the other. Totally different from the other seasons where you got plenty of completely unexpected turns of events. Ned died, the red wedding Now you know that someone will save the day.
As I ve said I still enjoy watching it but the story suffers without Martin
I disagree. I don't think the story is suffering. Nor do I think its a big enough deal that you will stop watching it. I do, however, think you are using hyperbole to criticize a widely popular show.
I had no idea that there would be a wight dragon before this episode. I also didn't know that Dany would fly her dragon over the wall.
Granted, I haven't read the books and I do not speak Dorthraki. If you are devoting a lot of your time to this show, I could see how these are cliches. For the other 95% of people that don't have time to devote to a weekly hour long fantasy tv show, I think this season has been solid and entertaining.
Season Finale Spoilers below:
Theyyyy'rreee Heeerrrreee! (Called that ending, btw!)
To me the most interesting part was the Littlefinger backstory. So not only was Robert's Rebellion built upon a lie, which many of us figured, but it was Littlefinger and Lysa Arryn that started the Stark/Lannister conflict, too.
I also love the conflict that was set up between Jon and Daenerys now, too. With Jon being the rightful heir (to both the Iron Throne AND the North) and well-liked, there's going to be some drama there. Granted, I don't think both Jon and Daenerys both end up surviving.
We also finally get to root for Jaime, too!
Season Finale Spoilers below:
Theyyyy'rreee Heeerrrreee! (Called that ending, btw!)
To me the most interesting part was the Littlefinger backstory. So not only was Robert's Rebellion built upon a lie, which many of us figured, but it was Littlefinger and Lysa Arryn that started the Stark/Lannister conflict, too.
I also love the conflict that was set up between Jon and Daenerys now, too. With Jon being the rightful heir (to both the Iron Throne AND the North) and well-liked, there's going to be some drama there. Granted, I don't think both Jon and Daenerys both end up surviving.
We also finally get to root for Jaime, too!
If anyone dies, I think it's Dany. She's too flawed to be the hero of the story and Jon's (or Aegon) is too good to not be that hero.
But for what I thought was a generally middling season, I think this was a great finale. I initially thought Arya had already killed Little Finger and was masquerading as him to Sansa 1 on 1, but I liked that plot twist even better. It sucks that we now have to wait so long for the conclusion. But it is a very unique situation where we have so much back knowledge from Martin's books and lore and so many fan theories without actually having the end solidified in terms of a novel.
I will not be at all surprised if the HBO folks finished the show by just harvesting as many fan theories as they found interesting. What a thoroughly uninspired season.Season Finale Spoilers below:
Theyyyy'rreee Heeerrrreee! (Called that ending, btw!)
To me the most interesting part was the Littlefinger backstory. So not only was Robert's Rebellion built upon a lie, which many of us figured, but it was Littlefinger and Lysa Arryn that started the Stark/Lannister conflict, too.
I also love the conflict that was set up between Jon and Daenerys now, too. With Jon being the rightful heir (to both the Iron Throne AND the North) and well-liked, there's going to be some drama there. Granted, I don't think both Jon and Daenerys both end up surviving.
We also finally get to root for Jaime, too!
If anyone dies, I think it's Dany. She's too flawed to be the hero of the story and Jon's (or Aegon) is too good to not be that hero.
But for what I thought was a generally middling season, I think this was a great finale. I initially thought Arya had already killed Little Finger and was masquerading as him to Sansa 1 on 1, but I liked that plot twist even better. It sucks that we now have to wait so long for the conclusion. But it is a very unique situation where we have so much back knowledge from Martin's books and lore and so many fan theories without actually having the end solidified in terms of a novel.
TP. Agree with all of that.
What's interesting though is that for the most part all of the fan theories have now been covered, so unless the script gets leaked again, pretty much everyone should be going into the final season blind.
Where'd the giant chains come from? And who hooked them to the dragon?
They keep them around just in case. You never know when you might need them. Like Sam's rope in LOTR.
The problem with the Sansa/Arya twist is the scene where Sansa snuck into Arya's room. If they were conspiring together, there was no reason to have a confrontation behind closed doors with nobody else in the room.Cersei's plan won't work. Jamie was right, whoever wins in the North will march South and wipe her out. Her only shot was one of unity, especially if she stayed behind and Jon and Dany both died in the fight with the dead. She could have then taken the position, that I'm sorry they died defending us, but we lost a lot of good men as well. I did right by the kingdom, bend the knee. Her tactic will only serve to get her wiped out.
Thought it was funny when Cersei called Jamie the stupidest Lannister. Although I think Tyrion is giving him a good run for the title. How many more times can his advice be wrong before Dany changes his position to court jester?
The problem with the Sansa/Arya twist is the scene where Sansa snuck into Arya's room. If they were conspiring together, there was no reason to have a confrontation behind closed doors with nobody else in the room.
they were always playing Littlefinger. One of two things happened in the room. They either believed that Littlefinger was somehow spying on them or Sansa was actually surprised to find the faces and was caught off guard. It was clear they were never really at each other's throats though as if they were there is no way Arya gives Sansa the knife. It was also pretty clear that at some point they had some pretty meaningful discussions with Bran because much of what they accused Littlefinger of only Bran would know through visions. I think they delayed his death a bit to make sure they knew exactly what he was planning and to make sure they had enough solid evidence to make it stick with those from the Veil and the other northern lords. You can't just kill the Lord Protector of the Veil and the man whose forces led to the victory over the Boltons without some real solid evidence.The problem with the Sansa/Arya twist is the scene where Sansa snuck into Arya's room. If they were conspiring together, there was no reason to have a confrontation behind closed doors with nobody else in the room.
Not really. I'm under the impression that the confrontation was real and it was after Sansa spoke to Littlefinger at the beginning of this episode that she realized what he was scheming. That's why she told him, "I'm a slow learner. it's true. But I do learn" during he trial. So after that meeting, where Littlefinger tried to plant the idea that Arya wanted to kill her, is when Sansa realized it and where she made amends (off-camera) with Arya.
Of course it won't because this is a show and they're not going to let Cersei win in the end. The fans of the show would hate that. The Night King will be defeated. Theon and the Hound will get their redemption even if they end up dying doing it. Cersei will be defeated. Only question is how. My guess is Jamie dies valiantly in battle. Arya takes his face and kills Cersei. The only real question is what happens between Jon and Dany. I suspect that will be addressed by her becoming pregnant.The problem with the Sansa/Arya twist is the scene where Sansa snuck into Arya's room. If they were conspiring together, there was no reason to have a confrontation behind closed doors with nobody else in the room.Cersei's plan won't work. Jamie was right, whoever wins in the North will march South and wipe her out. Her only shot was one of unity, especially if she stayed behind and Jon and Dany both died in the fight with the dead. She could have then taken the position, that I'm sorry they died defending us, but we lost a lot of good men as well. I did right by the kingdom, bend the knee. Her tactic will only serve to get her wiped out.
Thought it was funny when Cersei called Jamie the stupidest Lannister. Although I think Tyrion is giving him a good run for the title. How many more times can his advice be wrong before Dany changes his position to court jester?
They can't defeat the Night King without the dragons. Thus at least 1 dragon will survive the fighting. Cersei also just isn't likeable. The people won't be on her side, which will eventually lead to her downfall. You can't keep power for long if no one wants you to. She is taking a position that will lead to the other side being the one the people back (unless it is the army of the dead). If they see any crack in the shield, they will bolt to Jon/Dany, especially as the whispers of Cersei's betrayal become louder and louder.Of course it won't because this is a show and they're not going to let Cersei win in the end. The fans of the show would hate that. The Night King will be defeated. Theon and the Hound will get their redemption even if they end up dying doing it. Cersei will be defeated. Only question is how. My guess is Jamie dies valiantly in battle. Arya takes his face and kills Cersei. The only real question is what happens between Jon and Dany. I suspect that will be addressed by her becoming pregnant.The problem with the Sansa/Arya twist is the scene where Sansa snuck into Arya's room. If they were conspiring together, there was no reason to have a confrontation behind closed doors with nobody else in the room.Cersei's plan won't work. Jamie was right, whoever wins in the North will march South and wipe her out. Her only shot was one of unity, especially if she stayed behind and Jon and Dany both died in the fight with the dead. She could have then taken the position, that I'm sorry they died defending us, but we lost a lot of good men as well. I did right by the kingdom, bend the knee. Her tactic will only serve to get her wiped out.
Thought it was funny when Cersei called Jamie the stupidest Lannister. Although I think Tyrion is giving him a good run for the title. How many more times can his advice be wrong before Dany changes his position to court jester?
Unity and hoping Jon and Dany die in the fighting is not a plan for victory. If Jon and Dany die, the dead most likely would have won. Letting your two enemies fight each other while you build up your forces is a good plan.
Cersei correctly surmised that one of the dragons is dead. If one dragon can die so can the others. Without the dragons, Jon and Dany's forces are very beatable. There were only 8000 Unsullied to start and at least 1000 should already be dead from fighting. Robb Stark's northern army only had 20K men and they were pretty much wiped out. The Dothraki are impressive but they aren't made for conducting sieges. If Jon and Dany defeat the dead, their forces will be significantly depleted.
Meanwhile Cersei is rebuilding her forces. 20k Gold Company mercenaries are on the way. Euron controls the seas. More ballista can be made. More wildfire can be produced. The way Qyburn was looking at the dead remains, I wouldn't be surprised if Cersei has her own dead (or half-dead) army.
Yes, the implication is that they were plotting against Littlefinger all along. That's why the scene in the closed room with no one else around doesn't make sense. How would Littlefinger have been spying on them? Winterfell isn't a place of spyholes. Sansa and Arya were speaking normally not shouting so no one would have been able to hear anything outside the room. Even if Sansa was surprised by the faces, Arya wouldn't threaten to cut off Sansa's face and leave the room glaring at her.they were always playing Littlefinger. One of two things happened in the room. They either believed that Littlefinger was somehow spying on them or Sansa was actually surprised to find the faces and was caught off guard. It was clear they were never really at each other's throats though as if they were there is no way Arya gives Sansa the knife. It was also pretty clear that at some point they had some pretty meaningful discussions with Bran because much of what they accused Littlefinger of only Bran would know through visions. I think they delayed his death a bit to make sure they knew exactly what he was planning and to make sure they had enough solid evidence to make it stick with those from the Veil and the other northern lords. You can't just kill the Lord Protector of the Veil and the man whose forces led to the victory over the Boltons without some real solid evidence.The problem with the Sansa/Arya twist is the scene where Sansa snuck into Arya's room. If they were conspiring together, there was no reason to have a confrontation behind closed doors with nobody else in the room.
Not really. I'm under the impression that the confrontation was real and it was after Sansa spoke to Littlefinger at the beginning of this episode that she realized what he was scheming. That's why she told him, "I'm a slow learner. it's true. But I do learn" during he trial. So after that meeting, where Littlefinger tried to plant the idea that Arya wanted to kill her, is when Sansa realized it and where she made amends (off-camera) with Arya.
I'm torn on season 7. On one hand, it's great to finally see the storylines converge and the focus shift towards the real conflict, but on the other hand, this whole season feels a lot more "TV-ish".Budget, I imagine?
So much fan-service, so much plot armor. I'm not sure why they needed to cut the number of episodes to seven if they then go and rush through most of the content. The series is still great, but this season didnt't feel nearly as good as previous ones.
On the bright side, I'm 100% sure the final two books will be a lot different to the show. So much stuff we see now just doesn't make any sense in the context of the books.
Yes, the implication is that they were plotting against Littlefinger all along. That's why the scene in the closed room with no one else around doesn't make sense. How would Littlefinger have been spying on them? Winterfell isn't a place of spyholes. Sansa and Arya were speaking normally not shouting so no one would have been able to hear anything outside the room. Even if Sansa was surprised by the faces, Arya wouldn't threaten to cut off Sansa's face and leave the room glaring at her.they were always playing Littlefinger. One of two things happened in the room. They either believed that Littlefinger was somehow spying on them or Sansa was actually surprised to find the faces and was caught off guard. It was clear they were never really at each other's throats though as if they were there is no way Arya gives Sansa the knife. It was also pretty clear that at some point they had some pretty meaningful discussions with Bran because much of what they accused Littlefinger of only Bran would know through visions. I think they delayed his death a bit to make sure they knew exactly what he was planning and to make sure they had enough solid evidence to make it stick with those from the Veil and the other northern lords. You can't just kill the Lord Protector of the Veil and the man whose forces led to the victory over the Boltons without some real solid evidence.The problem with the Sansa/Arya twist is the scene where Sansa snuck into Arya's room. If they were conspiring together, there was no reason to have a confrontation behind closed doors with nobody else in the room.
Not really. I'm under the impression that the confrontation was real and it was after Sansa spoke to Littlefinger at the beginning of this episode that she realized what he was scheming. That's why she told him, "I'm a slow learner. it's true. But I do learn" during he trial. So after that meeting, where Littlefinger tried to plant the idea that Arya wanted to kill her, is when Sansa realized it and where she made amends (off-camera) with Arya.
The scene that I think made up her mind was earlier in this final episode. Littelfinger helped Sansa to imagine "the worst", which was Arya killing Sansa. But what was the only motivation that Sansa could come up with for that?... Arya to become lady of winterfell. This was the checkmate because Sansa knows that the last thing Arya has ever wanted to be was "a lady" of anything. Therefore, she Arya had no motivation in seeing Sansa dead.Yup, this point had been hammered in nicely early on.
I don't think they were plotting against Littlefinger all along. I think Sansa was suspect of everyone and wanted to learn as much as she could.
The scene that I think made up her mind was earlier in this final episode. Littelfinger helped Sansa to imagine "the worst", which was Arya killing Sansa. But what was the only motivation that Sansa could come up with for that?... Arya to become lady of winterfell. This was the checkmate because Sansa knows that the last thing Arya has ever wanted to be was "a lady" of anything. Therefore, she Arya had no motivation in seeing Sansa dead.
Obviously at least one dragon will survive since it is a TV show but that is not a given. Valyrian steel and dragon glass kill white walkers. The dragons are needed for mass destruction of the dead. Of course, wildfire would work quite well against them too. As for the dragon, just need a bunch of the ballista.They can't defeat the Night King without the dragons. Thus at least 1 dragon will survive the fighting. Cersei also just isn't likeable. The people won't be on her side, which will eventually lead to her downfall. You can't keep power for long if no one wants you to. She is taking a position that will lead to the other side being the one the people back (unless it is the army of the dead). If they see any crack in the shield, they will bolt to Jon/Dany, especially as the whispers of Cersei's betrayal become louder and louder.Of course it won't because this is a show and they're not going to let Cersei win in the end. The fans of the show would hate that. The Night King will be defeated. Theon and the Hound will get their redemption even if they end up dying doing it. Cersei will be defeated. Only question is how. My guess is Jamie dies valiantly in battle. Arya takes his face and kills Cersei. The only real question is what happens between Jon and Dany. I suspect that will be addressed by her becoming pregnant.The problem with the Sansa/Arya twist is the scene where Sansa snuck into Arya's room. If they were conspiring together, there was no reason to have a confrontation behind closed doors with nobody else in the room.Cersei's plan won't work. Jamie was right, whoever wins in the North will march South and wipe her out. Her only shot was one of unity, especially if she stayed behind and Jon and Dany both died in the fight with the dead. She could have then taken the position, that I'm sorry they died defending us, but we lost a lot of good men as well. I did right by the kingdom, bend the knee. Her tactic will only serve to get her wiped out.
Thought it was funny when Cersei called Jamie the stupidest Lannister. Although I think Tyrion is giving him a good run for the title. How many more times can his advice be wrong before Dany changes his position to court jester?
Unity and hoping Jon and Dany die in the fighting is not a plan for victory. If Jon and Dany die, the dead most likely would have won. Letting your two enemies fight each other while you build up your forces is a good plan.
Cersei correctly surmised that one of the dragons is dead. If one dragon can die so can the others. Without the dragons, Jon and Dany's forces are very beatable. There were only 8000 Unsullied to start and at least 1000 should already be dead from fighting. Robb Stark's northern army only had 20K men and they were pretty much wiped out. The Dothraki are impressive but they aren't made for conducting sieges. If Jon and Dany defeat the dead, their forces will be significantly depleted.
Meanwhile Cersei is rebuilding her forces. 20k Gold Company mercenaries are on the way. Euron controls the seas. More ballista can be made. More wildfire can be produced. The way Qyburn was looking at the dead remains, I wouldn't be surprised if Cersei has her own dead (or half-dead) army.
Obviously at least one dragon will survive since it is a TV show but that is not a given. Valyrian steel and dragon glass kill white walkers. The dragons are needed for mass destruction of the dead. Of course, wildfire would work quite well against them too. As for the dragon, just need a bunch of the ballista.They can't defeat the Night King without the dragons. Thus at least 1 dragon will survive the fighting. Cersei also just isn't likeable. The people won't be on her side, which will eventually lead to her downfall. You can't keep power for long if no one wants you to. She is taking a position that will lead to the other side being the one the people back (unless it is the army of the dead). If they see any crack in the shield, they will bolt to Jon/Dany, especially as the whispers of Cersei's betrayal become louder and louder.Of course it won't because this is a show and they're not going to let Cersei win in the end. The fans of the show would hate that. The Night King will be defeated. Theon and the Hound will get their redemption even if they end up dying doing it. Cersei will be defeated. Only question is how. My guess is Jamie dies valiantly in battle. Arya takes his face and kills Cersei. The only real question is what happens between Jon and Dany. I suspect that will be addressed by her becoming pregnant.The problem with the Sansa/Arya twist is the scene where Sansa snuck into Arya's room. If they were conspiring together, there was no reason to have a confrontation behind closed doors with nobody else in the room.Cersei's plan won't work. Jamie was right, whoever wins in the North will march South and wipe her out. Her only shot was one of unity, especially if she stayed behind and Jon and Dany both died in the fight with the dead. She could have then taken the position, that I'm sorry they died defending us, but we lost a lot of good men as well. I did right by the kingdom, bend the knee. Her tactic will only serve to get her wiped out.
Thought it was funny when Cersei called Jamie the stupidest Lannister. Although I think Tyrion is giving him a good run for the title. How many more times can his advice be wrong before Dany changes his position to court jester?
Unity and hoping Jon and Dany die in the fighting is not a plan for victory. If Jon and Dany die, the dead most likely would have won. Letting your two enemies fight each other while you build up your forces is a good plan.
Cersei correctly surmised that one of the dragons is dead. If one dragon can die so can the others. Without the dragons, Jon and Dany's forces are very beatable. There were only 8000 Unsullied to start and at least 1000 should already be dead from fighting. Robb Stark's northern army only had 20K men and they were pretty much wiped out. The Dothraki are impressive but they aren't made for conducting sieges. If Jon and Dany defeat the dead, their forces will be significantly depleted.
Meanwhile Cersei is rebuilding her forces. 20k Gold Company mercenaries are on the way. Euron controls the seas. More ballista can be made. More wildfire can be produced. The way Qyburn was looking at the dead remains, I wouldn't be surprised if Cersei has her own dead (or half-dead) army.
What world do you live in? Brutal tyrants keep power quite well. Now and throughout human history. The people generally don't matter. It is the important power brokers that do. Hence her move to get the Iron Bank on her side. Cersei may not be liked but she's been an efficient and steady ruler. She's not oppressing the people. They are free to go about their daily lives. She's also a southerner.
Why would southerners flock to Jon and Dany? If I'm a southerner, I'm quite happy not to be sent north to fight and die. Jon is a northerner and Dany is a foreigner and they are both Targaryens. There is no desire to be ruled by Targaryens again after the Mad King. Refer to how the threat of Dany, the Unsullied and Dothraki was used to turn the Tarlys against the Tyrells who they were pledged to.
I believe that is correct. They are going to have to be some really long episodes to address everything.Obviously at least one dragon will survive since it is a TV show but that is not a given. Valyrian steel and dragon glass kill white walkers. The dragons are needed for mass destruction of the dead. Of course, wildfire would work quite well against them too. As for the dragon, just need a bunch of the ballista.They can't defeat the Night King without the dragons. Thus at least 1 dragon will survive the fighting. Cersei also just isn't likeable. The people won't be on her side, which will eventually lead to her downfall. You can't keep power for long if no one wants you to. She is taking a position that will lead to the other side being the one the people back (unless it is the army of the dead). If they see any crack in the shield, they will bolt to Jon/Dany, especially as the whispers of Cersei's betrayal become louder and louder.Of course it won't because this is a show and they're not going to let Cersei win in the end. The fans of the show would hate that. The Night King will be defeated. Theon and the Hound will get their redemption even if they end up dying doing it. Cersei will be defeated. Only question is how. My guess is Jamie dies valiantly in battle. Arya takes his face and kills Cersei. The only real question is what happens between Jon and Dany. I suspect that will be addressed by her becoming pregnant.The problem with the Sansa/Arya twist is the scene where Sansa snuck into Arya's room. If they were conspiring together, there was no reason to have a confrontation behind closed doors with nobody else in the room.Cersei's plan won't work. Jamie was right, whoever wins in the North will march South and wipe her out. Her only shot was one of unity, especially if she stayed behind and Jon and Dany both died in the fight with the dead. She could have then taken the position, that I'm sorry they died defending us, but we lost a lot of good men as well. I did right by the kingdom, bend the knee. Her tactic will only serve to get her wiped out.
Thought it was funny when Cersei called Jamie the stupidest Lannister. Although I think Tyrion is giving him a good run for the title. How many more times can his advice be wrong before Dany changes his position to court jester?
Unity and hoping Jon and Dany die in the fighting is not a plan for victory. If Jon and Dany die, the dead most likely would have won. Letting your two enemies fight each other while you build up your forces is a good plan.
Cersei correctly surmised that one of the dragons is dead. If one dragon can die so can the others. Without the dragons, Jon and Dany's forces are very beatable. There were only 8000 Unsullied to start and at least 1000 should already be dead from fighting. Robb Stark's northern army only had 20K men and they were pretty much wiped out. The Dothraki are impressive but they aren't made for conducting sieges. If Jon and Dany defeat the dead, their forces will be significantly depleted.
Meanwhile Cersei is rebuilding her forces. 20k Gold Company mercenaries are on the way. Euron controls the seas. More ballista can be made. More wildfire can be produced. The way Qyburn was looking at the dead remains, I wouldn't be surprised if Cersei has her own dead (or half-dead) army.
What world do you live in? Brutal tyrants keep power quite well. Now and throughout human history. The people generally don't matter. It is the important power brokers that do. Hence her move to get the Iron Bank on her side. Cersei may not be liked but she's been an efficient and steady ruler. She's not oppressing the people. They are free to go about their daily lives. She's also a southerner.
Why would southerners flock to Jon and Dany? If I'm a southerner, I'm quite happy not to be sent north to fight and die. Jon is a northerner and Dany is a foreigner and they are both Targaryens. There is no desire to be ruled by Targaryens again after the Mad King. Refer to how the threat of Dany, the Unsullied and Dothraki was used to turn the Tarlys against the Tyrells who they were pledged to.
Sadly, almost none of that will be explored except in the most cursory of manners. Six episodes left, is it?
Even with the Golden Company, Cersei doesn't have the army to control the south, let alone the north once that army marches back down south. Remember the Golden Company is 20,000 troops, but a million people live in Kings Landing alone. She can't keep the peace without the support of the other great houses (or whatever is left of them) and she absolutely needs the resources of High Garden, Dorne, etc. to survive and pay back the Iron Bank, but she doesn't have the forces to keep those lands without the support of those people and their lords, and she won't get it because she is a tyrant. Tyrants keep power when they have the military force to keep power, Cersei quite simply doesn't have that and she never will. It is only a matter of time for her. Her treachery might buy her a bit more time, but the end game is the same, and not just because this a fantasy, because Martin could easily end this series with a tyrant on the throne, it is just that Cersei isn't the right tyrant. Frankly, I wouldn't be overly surprised if there is a tyrant on the thrown at the end. I just think it would be far more like to be Dany, as I can totally see her going full on villain. She has that cold viciousness that Cersei does and she could easily be triggered into a downward spiral (you know if her dragons die, Jon, Jorah, Tyrion, etc. all die as well). She will still defeat Cersei though because she will be much better positioned to do so with the better trained forces and the full support of the north if she leads the defeat of the Night King (she also would more than likely have the 3 Eyed Raven on her side). That said, I believe Dany dies and Jon ends up on the thrown after he defeats Cersei. As this has always been his story and that of his "siblings". Everyone else is just filler to get the story to the end point.Obviously at least one dragon will survive since it is a TV show but that is not a given. Valyrian steel and dragon glass kill white walkers. The dragons are needed for mass destruction of the dead. Of course, wildfire would work quite well against them too. As for the dragon, just need a bunch of the ballista.They can't defeat the Night King without the dragons. Thus at least 1 dragon will survive the fighting. Cersei also just isn't likeable. The people won't be on her side, which will eventually lead to her downfall. You can't keep power for long if no one wants you to. She is taking a position that will lead to the other side being the one the people back (unless it is the army of the dead). If they see any crack in the shield, they will bolt to Jon/Dany, especially as the whispers of Cersei's betrayal become louder and louder.Of course it won't because this is a show and they're not going to let Cersei win in the end. The fans of the show would hate that. The Night King will be defeated. Theon and the Hound will get their redemption even if they end up dying doing it. Cersei will be defeated. Only question is how. My guess is Jamie dies valiantly in battle. Arya takes his face and kills Cersei. The only real question is what happens between Jon and Dany. I suspect that will be addressed by her becoming pregnant.The problem with the Sansa/Arya twist is the scene where Sansa snuck into Arya's room. If they were conspiring together, there was no reason to have a confrontation behind closed doors with nobody else in the room.Cersei's plan won't work. Jamie was right, whoever wins in the North will march South and wipe her out. Her only shot was one of unity, especially if she stayed behind and Jon and Dany both died in the fight with the dead. She could have then taken the position, that I'm sorry they died defending us, but we lost a lot of good men as well. I did right by the kingdom, bend the knee. Her tactic will only serve to get her wiped out.
Thought it was funny when Cersei called Jamie the stupidest Lannister. Although I think Tyrion is giving him a good run for the title. How many more times can his advice be wrong before Dany changes his position to court jester?
Unity and hoping Jon and Dany die in the fighting is not a plan for victory. If Jon and Dany die, the dead most likely would have won. Letting your two enemies fight each other while you build up your forces is a good plan.
Cersei correctly surmised that one of the dragons is dead. If one dragon can die so can the others. Without the dragons, Jon and Dany's forces are very beatable. There were only 8000 Unsullied to start and at least 1000 should already be dead from fighting. Robb Stark's northern army only had 20K men and they were pretty much wiped out. The Dothraki are impressive but they aren't made for conducting sieges. If Jon and Dany defeat the dead, their forces will be significantly depleted.
Meanwhile Cersei is rebuilding her forces. 20k Gold Company mercenaries are on the way. Euron controls the seas. More ballista can be made. More wildfire can be produced. The way Qyburn was looking at the dead remains, I wouldn't be surprised if Cersei has her own dead (or half-dead) army.
What world do you live in? Brutal tyrants keep power quite well. Now and throughout human history. The people generally don't matter. It is the important power brokers that do. Hence her move to get the Iron Bank on her side. Cersei may not be liked but she's been an efficient and steady ruler. She's not oppressing the people. They are free to go about their daily lives. She's also a southerner.
Why would southerners flock to Jon and Dany? If I'm a southerner, I'm quite happy not to be sent north to fight and die. Jon is a northerner and Dany is a foreigner and they are both Targaryens. There is no desire to be ruled by Targaryens again after the Mad King. Refer to how the threat of Dany, the Unsullied and Dothraki was used to turn the Tarlys against the Tyrells who they were pledged to.
Even with the Golden Company, Cersei doesn't have the army to control the south, let alone the north once that army marches back down south. Remember the Golden Company is 20,000 troops, but a million people live in Kings Landing alone. She can't keep the peace without the support of the other great houses (or whatever is left of them) and she absolutely needs the resources of High Garden, Dorne, etc. to survive and pay back the Iron Bank, but she doesn't have the forces to keep those lands without the support of those people and their lords, and she won't get it because she is a tyrant. Tyrants keep power when they have the military force to keep power, Cersei quite simply doesn't have that and she never will. It is only a matter of time for her. Her treachery might buy her a bit more time, but the end game is the same, and not just because this a fantasy, because Martin could easily end this series with a tyrant on the throne, it is just that Cersei isn't the right tyrant. Frankly, I wouldn't be overly surprised if there is a tyrant on the thrown at the end. I just think it would be far more like to be Dany, as I can totally see her going full on villain. She has that cold viciousness that Cersei does and she could easily be triggered into a downward spiral (you know if her dragons die, Jon, Jorah, Tyrion, etc. all die as well). She will still defeat Cersei though because she will be much better positioned to do so with the better trained forces and the full support of the north if she leads the defeat of the Night King (she also would more than likely have the 3 Eyed Raven on her side). That said, I believe Dany dies and Jon ends up on the thrown after he defeats Cersei. As this has always been his story and that of his "siblings". Everyone else is just filler to get the story to the end point.Obviously at least one dragon will survive since it is a TV show but that is not a given. Valyrian steel and dragon glass kill white walkers. The dragons are needed for mass destruction of the dead. Of course, wildfire would work quite well against them too. As for the dragon, just need a bunch of the ballista.They can't defeat the Night King without the dragons. Thus at least 1 dragon will survive the fighting. Cersei also just isn't likeable. The people won't be on her side, which will eventually lead to her downfall. You can't keep power for long if no one wants you to. She is taking a position that will lead to the other side being the one the people back (unless it is the army of the dead). If they see any crack in the shield, they will bolt to Jon/Dany, especially as the whispers of Cersei's betrayal become louder and louder.Of course it won't because this is a show and they're not going to let Cersei win in the end. The fans of the show would hate that. The Night King will be defeated. Theon and the Hound will get their redemption even if they end up dying doing it. Cersei will be defeated. Only question is how. My guess is Jamie dies valiantly in battle. Arya takes his face and kills Cersei. The only real question is what happens between Jon and Dany. I suspect that will be addressed by her becoming pregnant.The problem with the Sansa/Arya twist is the scene where Sansa snuck into Arya's room. If they were conspiring together, there was no reason to have a confrontation behind closed doors with nobody else in the room.Cersei's plan won't work. Jamie was right, whoever wins in the North will march South and wipe her out. Her only shot was one of unity, especially if she stayed behind and Jon and Dany both died in the fight with the dead. She could have then taken the position, that I'm sorry they died defending us, but we lost a lot of good men as well. I did right by the kingdom, bend the knee. Her tactic will only serve to get her wiped out.
Thought it was funny when Cersei called Jamie the stupidest Lannister. Although I think Tyrion is giving him a good run for the title. How many more times can his advice be wrong before Dany changes his position to court jester?
Unity and hoping Jon and Dany die in the fighting is not a plan for victory. If Jon and Dany die, the dead most likely would have won. Letting your two enemies fight each other while you build up your forces is a good plan.
Cersei correctly surmised that one of the dragons is dead. If one dragon can die so can the others. Without the dragons, Jon and Dany's forces are very beatable. There were only 8000 Unsullied to start and at least 1000 should already be dead from fighting. Robb Stark's northern army only had 20K men and they were pretty much wiped out. The Dothraki are impressive but they aren't made for conducting sieges. If Jon and Dany defeat the dead, their forces will be significantly depleted.
Meanwhile Cersei is rebuilding her forces. 20k Gold Company mercenaries are on the way. Euron controls the seas. More ballista can be made. More wildfire can be produced. The way Qyburn was looking at the dead remains, I wouldn't be surprised if Cersei has her own dead (or half-dead) army.
What world do you live in? Brutal tyrants keep power quite well. Now and throughout human history. The people generally don't matter. It is the important power brokers that do. Hence her move to get the Iron Bank on her side. Cersei may not be liked but she's been an efficient and steady ruler. She's not oppressing the people. They are free to go about their daily lives. She's also a southerner.
Why would southerners flock to Jon and Dany? If I'm a southerner, I'm quite happy not to be sent north to fight and die. Jon is a northerner and Dany is a foreigner and they are both Targaryens. There is no desire to be ruled by Targaryens again after the Mad King. Refer to how the threat of Dany, the Unsullied and Dothraki was used to turn the Tarlys against the Tyrells who they were pledged to.
A couple thousand gold cloaks have kept order in King's landing. Do you see any rioting in King's landing? All that food in High Garden got to King's landing. Popular uprising don't occur that often and when they do they are usually quelled rather easily by brutal Tyrants. Dorne and High Garden forces have already been defeated. The Lannisters have by the best and largest military forces in the South. There is practically no one left in the South to challenge her. Only the Knights of the Vale really remain. As far as leaders take away Jon and Dany and there's no one left to lead a revolt. Cersei already paid off a huge debt to the Iron Bank. If she wins, she'd have no problem paying off the debt for the Gold Company.Even with the Golden Company, Cersei doesn't have the army to control the south, let alone the north once that army marches back down south. Remember the Golden Company is 20,000 troops, but a million people live in Kings Landing alone. She can't keep the peace without the support of the other great houses (or whatever is left of them) and she absolutely needs the resources of High Garden, Dorne, etc. to survive and pay back the Iron Bank, but she doesn't have the forces to keep those lands without the support of those people and their lords, and she won't get it because she is a tyrant. Tyrants keep power when they have the military force to keep power, Cersei quite simply doesn't have that and she never will. It is only a matter of time for her. Her treachery might buy her a bit more time, but the end game is the same, and not just because this a fantasy, because Martin could easily end this series with a tyrant on the throne, it is just that Cersei isn't the right tyrant. Frankly, I wouldn't be overly surprised if there is a tyrant on the thrown at the end. I just think it would be far more like to be Dany, as I can totally see her going full on villain. She has that cold viciousness that Cersei does and she could easily be triggered into a downward spiral (you know if her dragons die, Jon, Jorah, Tyrion, etc. all die as well). She will still defeat Cersei though because she will be much better positioned to do so with the better trained forces and the full support of the north if she leads the defeat of the Night King (she also would more than likely have the 3 Eyed Raven on her side). That said, I believe Dany dies and Jon ends up on the thrown after he defeats Cersei. As this has always been his story and that of his "siblings". Everyone else is just filler to get the story to the end point.Obviously at least one dragon will survive since it is a TV show but that is not a given. Valyrian steel and dragon glass kill white walkers. The dragons are needed for mass destruction of the dead. Of course, wildfire would work quite well against them too. As for the dragon, just need a bunch of the ballista.They can't defeat the Night King without the dragons. Thus at least 1 dragon will survive the fighting. Cersei also just isn't likeable. The people won't be on her side, which will eventually lead to her downfall. You can't keep power for long if no one wants you to. She is taking a position that will lead to the other side being the one the people back (unless it is the army of the dead). If they see any crack in the shield, they will bolt to Jon/Dany, especially as the whispers of Cersei's betrayal become louder and louder.Of course it won't because this is a show and they're not going to let Cersei win in the end. The fans of the show would hate that. The Night King will be defeated. Theon and the Hound will get their redemption even if they end up dying doing it. Cersei will be defeated. Only question is how. My guess is Jamie dies valiantly in battle. Arya takes his face and kills Cersei. The only real question is what happens between Jon and Dany. I suspect that will be addressed by her becoming pregnant.The problem with the Sansa/Arya twist is the scene where Sansa snuck into Arya's room. If they were conspiring together, there was no reason to have a confrontation behind closed doors with nobody else in the room.Cersei's plan won't work. Jamie was right, whoever wins in the North will march South and wipe her out. Her only shot was one of unity, especially if she stayed behind and Jon and Dany both died in the fight with the dead. She could have then taken the position, that I'm sorry they died defending us, but we lost a lot of good men as well. I did right by the kingdom, bend the knee. Her tactic will only serve to get her wiped out.
Thought it was funny when Cersei called Jamie the stupidest Lannister. Although I think Tyrion is giving him a good run for the title. How many more times can his advice be wrong before Dany changes his position to court jester?
Unity and hoping Jon and Dany die in the fighting is not a plan for victory. If Jon and Dany die, the dead most likely would have won. Letting your two enemies fight each other while you build up your forces is a good plan.
Cersei correctly surmised that one of the dragons is dead. If one dragon can die so can the others. Without the dragons, Jon and Dany's forces are very beatable. There were only 8000 Unsullied to start and at least 1000 should already be dead from fighting. Robb Stark's northern army only had 20K men and they were pretty much wiped out. The Dothraki are impressive but they aren't made for conducting sieges. If Jon and Dany defeat the dead, their forces will be significantly depleted.
Meanwhile Cersei is rebuilding her forces. 20k Gold Company mercenaries are on the way. Euron controls the seas. More ballista can be made. More wildfire can be produced. The way Qyburn was looking at the dead remains, I wouldn't be surprised if Cersei has her own dead (or half-dead) army.
What world do you live in? Brutal tyrants keep power quite well. Now and throughout human history. The people generally don't matter. It is the important power brokers that do. Hence her move to get the Iron Bank on her side. Cersei may not be liked but she's been an efficient and steady ruler. She's not oppressing the people. They are free to go about their daily lives. She's also a southerner.
Why would southerners flock to Jon and Dany? If I'm a southerner, I'm quite happy not to be sent north to fight and die. Jon is a northerner and Dany is a foreigner and they are both Targaryens. There is no desire to be ruled by Targaryens again after the Mad King. Refer to how the threat of Dany, the Unsullied and Dothraki was used to turn the Tarlys against the Tyrells who they were pledged to.
Its really weird that the show has people thinking Cersei is an efficient steady ruler. The books make it clear she's been anything but one. (also she's been pretty awful in the show too in my eye)Let's see. Previous rulers were the Mad King. Enough said. Robert Baratheon who even said himself that he was a lousy King and put the kingdom needlessly into huge debt. Joffrey and Tommen. Compared to all of them Cersei is guite efficient, steady and strong. She is very much like her father. She already paid of all the Iron Bank debt. She's been very efficient taking out her enemies. I'm just surprised that she hasn't hired the faceless men to take out Jon and Dany. In the show and more so in the books, her biggest issue is that she's a woman in a very male dominated society.
I'm torn on season 7. On one hand, it's great to finally see the storylines converge and the focus shift towards the real conflict, but on the other hand, this whole season feels a lot more "TV-ish".Budget, I imagine?
So much fan-service, so much plot armor. I'm not sure why they needed to cut the number of episodes to seven if they then go and rush through most of the content. The series is still great, but this season didnt't feel nearly as good as previous ones.
On the bright side, I'm 100% sure the final two books will be a lot different to the show. So much stuff we see now just doesn't make any sense in the context of the books.
the gold cloaks kept the peace when the south was all behind one ruler and no other legitimate threats to the throne existed i..e. when the tyrant had all the power. The golden company is an army of mercenaries those aren't reliable for anything. They will leave as soon as it looks like they will die. You can only buy support for so long.A couple thousand gold cloaks have kept order in King's landing. Do you see any rioting in King's landing? All that food in High Garden got to King's landing. Popular uprising don't occur that often and when they do they are usually quelled rather easily by brutal Tyrants. Dorne and High Garden forces have already been defeated. The Lannisters have by the best and largest military forces in the South. There is practically no one left in the South to challenge her. Only the Knights of the Vale really remain. As far as leaders take away Jon and Dany and there's no one left to lead a revolt. Cersei already paid off a huge debt to the Iron Bank. If she wins, she'd have no problem paying off the debt for the Gold Company.Even with the Golden Company, Cersei doesn't have the army to control the south, let alone the north once that army marches back down south. Remember the Golden Company is 20,000 troops, but a million people live in Kings Landing alone. She can't keep the peace without the support of the other great houses (or whatever is left of them) and she absolutely needs the resources of High Garden, Dorne, etc. to survive and pay back the Iron Bank, but she doesn't have the forces to keep those lands without the support of those people and their lords, and she won't get it because she is a tyrant. Tyrants keep power when they have the military force to keep power, Cersei quite simply doesn't have that and she never will. It is only a matter of time for her. Her treachery might buy her a bit more time, but the end game is the same, and not just because this a fantasy, because Martin could easily end this series with a tyrant on the throne, it is just that Cersei isn't the right tyrant. Frankly, I wouldn't be overly surprised if there is a tyrant on the thrown at the end. I just think it would be far more like to be Dany, as I can totally see her going full on villain. She has that cold viciousness that Cersei does and she could easily be triggered into a downward spiral (you know if her dragons die, Jon, Jorah, Tyrion, etc. all die as well). She will still defeat Cersei though because she will be much better positioned to do so with the better trained forces and the full support of the north if she leads the defeat of the Night King (she also would more than likely have the 3 Eyed Raven on her side). That said, I believe Dany dies and Jon ends up on the thrown after he defeats Cersei. As this has always been his story and that of his "siblings". Everyone else is just filler to get the story to the end point.Obviously at least one dragon will survive since it is a TV show but that is not a given. Valyrian steel and dragon glass kill white walkers. The dragons are needed for mass destruction of the dead. Of course, wildfire would work quite well against them too. As for the dragon, just need a bunch of the ballista.They can't defeat the Night King without the dragons. Thus at least 1 dragon will survive the fighting. Cersei also just isn't likeable. The people won't be on her side, which will eventually lead to her downfall. You can't keep power for long if no one wants you to. She is taking a position that will lead to the other side being the one the people back (unless it is the army of the dead). If they see any crack in the shield, they will bolt to Jon/Dany, especially as the whispers of Cersei's betrayal become louder and louder.Of course it won't because this is a show and they're not going to let Cersei win in the end. The fans of the show would hate that. The Night King will be defeated. Theon and the Hound will get their redemption even if they end up dying doing it. Cersei will be defeated. Only question is how. My guess is Jamie dies valiantly in battle. Arya takes his face and kills Cersei. The only real question is what happens between Jon and Dany. I suspect that will be addressed by her becoming pregnant.The problem with the Sansa/Arya twist is the scene where Sansa snuck into Arya's room. If they were conspiring together, there was no reason to have a confrontation behind closed doors with nobody else in the room.Cersei's plan won't work. Jamie was right, whoever wins in the North will march South and wipe her out. Her only shot was one of unity, especially if she stayed behind and Jon and Dany both died in the fight with the dead. She could have then taken the position, that I'm sorry they died defending us, but we lost a lot of good men as well. I did right by the kingdom, bend the knee. Her tactic will only serve to get her wiped out.
Thought it was funny when Cersei called Jamie the stupidest Lannister. Although I think Tyrion is giving him a good run for the title. How many more times can his advice be wrong before Dany changes his position to court jester?
Unity and hoping Jon and Dany die in the fighting is not a plan for victory. If Jon and Dany die, the dead most likely would have won. Letting your two enemies fight each other while you build up your forces is a good plan.
Cersei correctly surmised that one of the dragons is dead. If one dragon can die so can the others. Without the dragons, Jon and Dany's forces are very beatable. There were only 8000 Unsullied to start and at least 1000 should already be dead from fighting. Robb Stark's northern army only had 20K men and they were pretty much wiped out. The Dothraki are impressive but they aren't made for conducting sieges. If Jon and Dany defeat the dead, their forces will be significantly depleted.
Meanwhile Cersei is rebuilding her forces. 20k Gold Company mercenaries are on the way. Euron controls the seas. More ballista can be made. More wildfire can be produced. The way Qyburn was looking at the dead remains, I wouldn't be surprised if Cersei has her own dead (or half-dead) army.
What world do you live in? Brutal tyrants keep power quite well. Now and throughout human history. The people generally don't matter. It is the important power brokers that do. Hence her move to get the Iron Bank on her side. Cersei may not be liked but she's been an efficient and steady ruler. She's not oppressing the people. They are free to go about their daily lives. She's also a southerner.
Why would southerners flock to Jon and Dany? If I'm a southerner, I'm quite happy not to be sent north to fight and die. Jon is a northerner and Dany is a foreigner and they are both Targaryens. There is no desire to be ruled by Targaryens again after the Mad King. Refer to how the threat of Dany, the Unsullied and Dothraki was used to turn the Tarlys against the Tyrells who they were pledged to.
You ignore that the North is much less populated than the South and that much of their fighting men have already been killed. When Jon fought Ramsey Bolton, he had 2000 men including wildings and Ramsey had 5000. Those were all Northern men on both sides that got slaughtered and only the Knights of the Vale saved Jon from his own stupidity. Assuming Jon and Dany defeat the dead, many of their remaining forces are going to be killed doing so. Take away the dragons and Cersei would have a far superior hand. Heck if Dany and Jon are stupid enough to keep traveling by ship Euron would wipe them out.
Another significant advantage Cersei has is Qyburn and his little birds. They'd learn of any plots against Cersei before they were able to become a real threat.
I'm torn on season 7. On one hand, it's great to finally see the storylines converge and the focus shift towards the real conflict, but on the other hand, this whole season feels a lot more "TV-ish".Budget, I imagine?
So much fan-service, so much plot armor. I'm not sure why they needed to cut the number of episodes to seven if they then go and rush through most of the content. The series is still great, but this season didnt't feel nearly as good as previous ones.
On the bright side, I'm 100% sure the final two books will be a lot different to the show. So much stuff we see now just doesn't make any sense in the context of the books.
lol
Thanks, Captain Obvious. :laugh:
I just don't see a big diference between 2 seasons at 10 and 3 seasons at 7 episodes. Considering how much content they cut from the books, and that the stuff I'm missing is the walking & talking, which doesn't cost that much, I'm not sure it's a budgetary issue.
I'm not sure why they needed to cut the number of episodes to seven if they then go and rush through most of the content. The series is still great, but this season didnt't feel nearly as good as previous ones.
QuoteI'm not sure why they needed to cut the number of episodes to seven if they then go and rush through most of the content. The series is still great, but this season didnt't feel nearly as good as previous ones.
Money, they pay by the episode.
Fine, the extra footage was easy to shoot but they just randomly decided to make the series shorter because there's no benefit to adding depth to the story even when all the material is readily available. Better?lol
Thanks, Captain Obvious. :laugh:
I just don't see a big diference between 2 seasons at 10 and 3 seasons at 7 episodes. Considering how much content they cut from the books, and that the stuff I'm missing is the walking & talking, which doesn't cost that much, I'm not sure it's a budgetary issue.
Totally agree. Most of what is missing are the dialogue and character interaction scenes anyway. I can appreciate that they expedited the stories once the character's backstories were fully developed, but this season we would have benefited from another 3 hours (3 episodes worth, spread out) of how those characters interact.
The Golden Company are mercenaries who will fight and die as long as they are getting paid and they've got a chance to win. What other leader are southerners going to follow? Jon or Dany? A northerner and a foreigner and both Targaryens. Although most southerners would dismiss Jon's claims of being a Targaryen and rightful ruler. Dorne and High Garden joined up with them and got wiped out. You don't see southerners flocking to Jon or Dany. If they defeat the dead in the North, the southerners won't even know about it except for some rumors that they'll brush of as northern nonsense.the gold cloaks kept the peace when the south was all behind one ruler and no other legitimate threats to the throne existed i..e. when the tyrant had all the power. The golden company is an army of mercenaries those aren't reliable for anything. They will leave as soon as it looks like they will die. You can only buy support for so long.A couple thousand gold cloaks have kept order in King's landing. Do you see any rioting in King's landing? All that food in High Garden got to King's landing. Popular uprising don't occur that often and when they do they are usually quelled rather easily by brutal Tyrants. Dorne and High Garden forces have already been defeated. The Lannisters have by the best and largest military forces in the South. There is practically no one left in the South to challenge her. Only the Knights of the Vale really remain. As far as leaders take away Jon and Dany and there's no one left to lead a revolt. Cersei already paid off a huge debt to the Iron Bank. If she wins, she'd have no problem paying off the debt for the Gold Company.Even with the Golden Company, Cersei doesn't have the army to control the south, let alone the north once that army marches back down south. Remember the Golden Company is 20,000 troops, but a million people live in Kings Landing alone. She can't keep the peace without the support of the other great houses (or whatever is left of them) and she absolutely needs the resources of High Garden, Dorne, etc. to survive and pay back the Iron Bank, but she doesn't have the forces to keep those lands without the support of those people and their lords, and she won't get it because she is a tyrant. Tyrants keep power when they have the military force to keep power, Cersei quite simply doesn't have that and she never will. It is only a matter of time for her. Her treachery might buy her a bit more time, but the end game is the same, and not just because this a fantasy, because Martin could easily end this series with a tyrant on the throne, it is just that Cersei isn't the right tyrant. Frankly, I wouldn't be overly surprised if there is a tyrant on the thrown at the end. I just think it would be far more like to be Dany, as I can totally see her going full on villain. She has that cold viciousness that Cersei does and she could easily be triggered into a downward spiral (you know if her dragons die, Jon, Jorah, Tyrion, etc. all die as well). She will still defeat Cersei though because she will be much better positioned to do so with the better trained forces and the full support of the north if she leads the defeat of the Night King (she also would more than likely have the 3 Eyed Raven on her side). That said, I believe Dany dies and Jon ends up on the thrown after he defeats Cersei. As this has always been his story and that of his "siblings". Everyone else is just filler to get the story to the end point.Obviously at least one dragon will survive since it is a TV show but that is not a given. Valyrian steel and dragon glass kill white walkers. The dragons are needed for mass destruction of the dead. Of course, wildfire would work quite well against them too. As for the dragon, just need a bunch of the ballista.They can't defeat the Night King without the dragons. Thus at least 1 dragon will survive the fighting. Cersei also just isn't likeable. The people won't be on her side, which will eventually lead to her downfall. You can't keep power for long if no one wants you to. She is taking a position that will lead to the other side being the one the people back (unless it is the army of the dead). If they see any crack in the shield, they will bolt to Jon/Dany, especially as the whispers of Cersei's betrayal become louder and louder.Of course it won't because this is a show and they're not going to let Cersei win in the end. The fans of the show would hate that. The Night King will be defeated. Theon and the Hound will get their redemption even if they end up dying doing it. Cersei will be defeated. Only question is how. My guess is Jamie dies valiantly in battle. Arya takes his face and kills Cersei. The only real question is what happens between Jon and Dany. I suspect that will be addressed by her becoming pregnant.The problem with the Sansa/Arya twist is the scene where Sansa snuck into Arya's room. If they were conspiring together, there was no reason to have a confrontation behind closed doors with nobody else in the room.Cersei's plan won't work. Jamie was right, whoever wins in the North will march South and wipe her out. Her only shot was one of unity, especially if she stayed behind and Jon and Dany both died in the fight with the dead. She could have then taken the position, that I'm sorry they died defending us, but we lost a lot of good men as well. I did right by the kingdom, bend the knee. Her tactic will only serve to get her wiped out.
Thought it was funny when Cersei called Jamie the stupidest Lannister. Although I think Tyrion is giving him a good run for the title. How many more times can his advice be wrong before Dany changes his position to court jester?
Unity and hoping Jon and Dany die in the fighting is not a plan for victory. If Jon and Dany die, the dead most likely would have won. Letting your two enemies fight each other while you build up your forces is a good plan.
Cersei correctly surmised that one of the dragons is dead. If one dragon can die so can the others. Without the dragons, Jon and Dany's forces are very beatable. There were only 8000 Unsullied to start and at least 1000 should already be dead from fighting. Robb Stark's northern army only had 20K men and they were pretty much wiped out. The Dothraki are impressive but they aren't made for conducting sieges. If Jon and Dany defeat the dead, their forces will be significantly depleted.
Meanwhile Cersei is rebuilding her forces. 20k Gold Company mercenaries are on the way. Euron controls the seas. More ballista can be made. More wildfire can be produced. The way Qyburn was looking at the dead remains, I wouldn't be surprised if Cersei has her own dead (or half-dead) army.
What world do you live in? Brutal tyrants keep power quite well. Now and throughout human history. The people generally don't matter. It is the important power brokers that do. Hence her move to get the Iron Bank on her side. Cersei may not be liked but she's been an efficient and steady ruler. She's not oppressing the people. They are free to go about their daily lives. She's also a southerner.
Why would southerners flock to Jon and Dany? If I'm a southerner, I'm quite happy not to be sent north to fight and die. Jon is a northerner and Dany is a foreigner and they are both Targaryens. There is no desire to be ruled by Targaryens again after the Mad King. Refer to how the threat of Dany, the Unsullied and Dothraki was used to turn the Tarlys against the Tyrells who they were pledged to.
You ignore that the North is much less populated than the South and that much of their fighting men have already been killed. When Jon fought Ramsey Bolton, he had 2000 men including wildings and Ramsey had 5000. Those were all Northern men on both sides that got slaughtered and only the Knights of the Vale saved Jon from his own stupidity. Assuming Jon and Dany defeat the dead, many of their remaining forces are going to be killed doing so. Take away the dragons and Cersei would have a far superior hand. Heck if Dany and Jon are stupid enough to keep traveling by ship Euron would wipe them out.
Another significant advantage Cersei has is Qyburn and his little birds. They'd learn of any plots against Cersei before they were able to become a real threat.
The Tarly's turned on High Garden because they were going to lose. But that is the point I'm making, the only ones with true loyalty are Jon and Dany. Cersei doesn't have loyalty, which means they don't really have support, only fear. Fear is powerful for a ruler when there aren't other options, but there will be other options here.The Golden Company are mercenaries who will fight and die as long as they are getting paid and they've got a chance to win. What other leader are southerners going to follow? Jon or Dany? A northerner and a foreigner and both Targaryens. Although most southerners would dismiss Jon's claims of being a Targaryen and rightful ruler. Dorne and High Garden joined up with them and got wiped out. You don't see southerners flocking to Jon or Dany. If they defeat the dead in the North, the southerners won't even know about it except for some rumors that they'll brush of as northern nonsense.the gold cloaks kept the peace when the south was all behind one ruler and no other legitimate threats to the throne existed i..e. when the tyrant had all the power. The golden company is an army of mercenaries those aren't reliable for anything. They will leave as soon as it looks like they will die. You can only buy support for so long.A couple thousand gold cloaks have kept order in King's landing. Do you see any rioting in King's landing? All that food in High Garden got to King's landing. Popular uprising don't occur that often and when they do they are usually quelled rather easily by brutal Tyrants. Dorne and High Garden forces have already been defeated. The Lannisters have by the best and largest military forces in the South. There is practically no one left in the South to challenge her. Only the Knights of the Vale really remain. As far as leaders take away Jon and Dany and there's no one left to lead a revolt. Cersei already paid off a huge debt to the Iron Bank. If she wins, she'd have no problem paying off the debt for the Gold Company.Even with the Golden Company, Cersei doesn't have the army to control the south, let alone the north once that army marches back down south. Remember the Golden Company is 20,000 troops, but a million people live in Kings Landing alone. She can't keep the peace without the support of the other great houses (or whatever is left of them) and she absolutely needs the resources of High Garden, Dorne, etc. to survive and pay back the Iron Bank, but she doesn't have the forces to keep those lands without the support of those people and their lords, and she won't get it because she is a tyrant. Tyrants keep power when they have the military force to keep power, Cersei quite simply doesn't have that and she never will. It is only a matter of time for her. Her treachery might buy her a bit more time, but the end game is the same, and not just because this a fantasy, because Martin could easily end this series with a tyrant on the throne, it is just that Cersei isn't the right tyrant. Frankly, I wouldn't be overly surprised if there is a tyrant on the thrown at the end. I just think it would be far more like to be Dany, as I can totally see her going full on villain. She has that cold viciousness that Cersei does and she could easily be triggered into a downward spiral (you know if her dragons die, Jon, Jorah, Tyrion, etc. all die as well). She will still defeat Cersei though because she will be much better positioned to do so with the better trained forces and the full support of the north if she leads the defeat of the Night King (she also would more than likely have the 3 Eyed Raven on her side). That said, I believe Dany dies and Jon ends up on the thrown after he defeats Cersei. As this has always been his story and that of his "siblings". Everyone else is just filler to get the story to the end point.Obviously at least one dragon will survive since it is a TV show but that is not a given. Valyrian steel and dragon glass kill white walkers. The dragons are needed for mass destruction of the dead. Of course, wildfire would work quite well against them too. As for the dragon, just need a bunch of the ballista.They can't defeat the Night King without the dragons. Thus at least 1 dragon will survive the fighting. Cersei also just isn't likeable. The people won't be on her side, which will eventually lead to her downfall. You can't keep power for long if no one wants you to. She is taking a position that will lead to the other side being the one the people back (unless it is the army of the dead). If they see any crack in the shield, they will bolt to Jon/Dany, especially as the whispers of Cersei's betrayal become louder and louder.Of course it won't because this is a show and they're not going to let Cersei win in the end. The fans of the show would hate that. The Night King will be defeated. Theon and the Hound will get their redemption even if they end up dying doing it. Cersei will be defeated. Only question is how. My guess is Jamie dies valiantly in battle. Arya takes his face and kills Cersei. The only real question is what happens between Jon and Dany. I suspect that will be addressed by her becoming pregnant.The problem with the Sansa/Arya twist is the scene where Sansa snuck into Arya's room. If they were conspiring together, there was no reason to have a confrontation behind closed doors with nobody else in the room.Cersei's plan won't work. Jamie was right, whoever wins in the North will march South and wipe her out. Her only shot was one of unity, especially if she stayed behind and Jon and Dany both died in the fight with the dead. She could have then taken the position, that I'm sorry they died defending us, but we lost a lot of good men as well. I did right by the kingdom, bend the knee. Her tactic will only serve to get her wiped out.
Thought it was funny when Cersei called Jamie the stupidest Lannister. Although I think Tyrion is giving him a good run for the title. How many more times can his advice be wrong before Dany changes his position to court jester?
Unity and hoping Jon and Dany die in the fighting is not a plan for victory. If Jon and Dany die, the dead most likely would have won. Letting your two enemies fight each other while you build up your forces is a good plan.
Cersei correctly surmised that one of the dragons is dead. If one dragon can die so can the others. Without the dragons, Jon and Dany's forces are very beatable. There were only 8000 Unsullied to start and at least 1000 should already be dead from fighting. Robb Stark's northern army only had 20K men and they were pretty much wiped out. The Dothraki are impressive but they aren't made for conducting sieges. If Jon and Dany defeat the dead, their forces will be significantly depleted.
Meanwhile Cersei is rebuilding her forces. 20k Gold Company mercenaries are on the way. Euron controls the seas. More ballista can be made. More wildfire can be produced. The way Qyburn was looking at the dead remains, I wouldn't be surprised if Cersei has her own dead (or half-dead) army.
What world do you live in? Brutal tyrants keep power quite well. Now and throughout human history. The people generally don't matter. It is the important power brokers that do. Hence her move to get the Iron Bank on her side. Cersei may not be liked but she's been an efficient and steady ruler. She's not oppressing the people. They are free to go about their daily lives. She's also a southerner.
Why would southerners flock to Jon and Dany? If I'm a southerner, I'm quite happy not to be sent north to fight and die. Jon is a northerner and Dany is a foreigner and they are both Targaryens. There is no desire to be ruled by Targaryens again after the Mad King. Refer to how the threat of Dany, the Unsullied and Dothraki was used to turn the Tarlys against the Tyrells who they were pledged to.
You ignore that the North is much less populated than the South and that much of their fighting men have already been killed. When Jon fought Ramsey Bolton, he had 2000 men including wildings and Ramsey had 5000. Those were all Northern men on both sides that got slaughtered and only the Knights of the Vale saved Jon from his own stupidity. Assuming Jon and Dany defeat the dead, many of their remaining forces are going to be killed doing so. Take away the dragons and Cersei would have a far superior hand. Heck if Dany and Jon are stupid enough to keep traveling by ship Euron would wipe them out.
Another significant advantage Cersei has is Qyburn and his little birds. They'd learn of any plots against Cersei before they were able to become a real threat.
Why would southerners want Dany to win? She'll remind them of the Mad King. She brings dragons which is bad. She brings Unsullied which is bad. She brings Dothraki which is really, really bad. Cersei and Jamie already showed how easy it was to use that against Dany by getting the Tarlys to turn on High Garden. Of course, the stories of how Dany burned the Tarlys alive will be thrown into the mix too. Most southerners won't Cersei may not be loved by southerners but neither is Jon or Dany. Except for fear most southerners have no reason to support Jon or Dany.
question for the group:
my wife mentioned something to me after watching the last episode that I hadn't considered so I'd appreciate any thoughts people may have on this --> Bran was by the tree and went into 'vision mode' right before the scene at the wall. I just took everything that happened at the wall at face value as actually happening in real time and just considering Bran's scene as a transition to get to the wall. My wife mentioned that she thought Bran was seeing a future that hadn't happened yet and in doing so, may be able to get warning to the wall and others (Jon/Dany) to prepare or prevent the wall from coming down.
I could have sworn Bran couldn't see the future, just the past and present. Is my wife onto something or is my interpretation of things the more likely situation?
question for the group:
my wife mentioned something to me after watching the last episode that I hadn't considered so I'd appreciate any thoughts people may have on this --> Bran was by the tree and went into 'vision mode' right before the scene at the wall. I just took everything that happened at the wall at face value as actually happening in real time and just considering Bran's scene as a transition to get to the wall. My wife mentioned that she thought Bran was seeing a future that hadn't happened yet and in doing so, may be able to get warning to the wall and others (Jon/Dany) to prepare or prevent the wall from coming down.
I could have sworn Bran couldn't see the future, just the past and present. Is my wife onto something or is my interpretation of things the more likely situation?
question for the group:
my wife mentioned something to me after watching the last episode that I hadn't considered so I'd appreciate any thoughts people may have on this --> Bran was by the tree and went into 'vision mode' right before the scene at the wall. I just took everything that happened at the wall at face value as actually happening in real time and just considering Bran's scene as a transition to get to the wall. My wife mentioned that she thought Bran was seeing a future that hadn't happened yet and in doing so, may be able to get warning to the wall and others (Jon/Dany) to prepare or prevent the wall from coming down.
I could have sworn Bran couldn't see the future, just the past and present. Is my wife onto something or is my interpretation of things the more likely situation?
I don't know about that. The five highest paid actors were paid 1.1M per episode this season instead of the 500k per episode they were paid last season. Everyone was well aware season 7 would only be 7 episodes when these negotiations occurred
My wife mentioned that she thought Bran was seeing a future that hadn't happened yet and in doing so, may be able to get warning to the wall and others (Jon/Dany) to prepare or prevent the wall from coming down.
So, here's something that's been troubling me ever since the finale.i think Randall Tarly says at one point that most of the gold has made it to the coffers and that it was mostly food left in the loot train
IIRC, Cersei told Jaime that she hired the Golden Company with the help of the Iron Bank representative and the gold attained from Highgarden after the Lannisters sacked it. However, all of that gold was presumably confiscated or burned up by Daenerys during the loot train attack. I think they even showed the carriage carrying the gold on fire.
So the only thing that makes sense to me is that Cersei either explicitly lied to the Iron Bank about having that gold or she just never told them that she didn't end up receiving it.
I think this could end up playing a major role down the stretch next season, because they've made a big deal throughout the show (even this season) that sellswords are not reliable due to fighting solely for money, which could pose a problem when it leaks that the Lannisters are broke and can't pay them.
Hell, the Golden Company's words are even "Our word is as good as gold," which is awfully coincidental given both the Lannister's words of "A Lannister always pays his debts" and the situation at hand.
However, all of that gold was presumably confiscated or burned up by Daenerys during the loot train attack. I think they even showed the carriage carrying the gold on fire.
So the only thing that makes sense to me is that Cersei either explicitly lied to the Iron Bank about having that gold or she just never told them that she didn't end up receiving it.
I think this could end up playing a major role down the stretch next season, because they've made a big deal throughout the show (even this season) that sellswords are not reliable due to fighting solely for money, which could pose a problem when it leaks that the Lannisters are broke and can't pay them.
Hell, the Golden Company's words are even "Our word is as good as gold," which is awfully coincidental given both the Lannister's words of "A Lannister always pays his debts" and the situation at hand.
Of course the Lancaster King married a York Queen and in the end both families ended up ruling until Elizabeth the First died without an heir.QuoteHowever, all of that gold was presumably confiscated or burned up by Daenerys during the loot train attack. I think they even showed the carriage carrying the gold on fire.
The gold made it back and she repaid the debt. You must have missed that it happened but many of us recall it.QuoteSo the only thing that makes sense to me is that Cersei either explicitly lied to the Iron Bank about having that gold or she just never told them that she didn't end up receiving it.
She paid them with the Tyrell Gold and said the oft mention motto . " A Lannister always paid their debts."QuoteI think this could end up playing a major role down the stretch next season, because they've made a big deal throughout the show (even this season) that sellswords are not reliable due to fighting solely for money, which could pose a problem when it leaks that the Lannisters are broke and can't pay them.
Hell, the Golden Company's words are even "Our word is as good as gold," which is awfully coincidental given both the Lannister's words of "A Lannister always pays his debts" and the situation at hand.
Historically mercenaries often went to the winner and switched sides. John Hawkwood and the White Company are a great example.
https://listverse.com/2014/06/19/10-swashbuckling-mercenaries-who-ravaged-medieval-europe/
A lot of GOT is based on history Stark aka York and Lannister aka Lancaster in the War of Roses are a great example. Now I think the Starks will win in the War of Roses the York side did not.
Randyll Tarly was the only person to defeat Robert Barratheon in battle. He was not motivated by fear of losing. Certainly not to Jamie who had lost multiple times to Robb Stark. Tarly was motivated by Daenerys being a Targaryen and bringing foreign Dothraki and Unsullied with her. If he was motivated by fear, he would have changed sides when Daenerys threated to burn him alive.The Tarly's turned on High Garden because they were going to lose. But that is the point I'm making, the only ones with true loyalty are Jon and Dany. Cersei doesn't have loyalty, which means they don't really have support, only fear. Fear is powerful for a ruler when there aren't other options, but there will be other options here.The Golden Company are mercenaries who will fight and die as long as they are getting paid and they've got a chance to win. What other leader are southerners going to follow? Jon or Dany? A northerner and a foreigner and both Targaryens. Although most southerners would dismiss Jon's claims of being a Targaryen and rightful ruler. Dorne and High Garden joined up with them and got wiped out. You don't see southerners flocking to Jon or Dany. If they defeat the dead in the North, the southerners won't even know about it except for some rumors that they'll brush of as northern nonsense.the gold cloaks kept the peace when the south was all behind one ruler and no other legitimate threats to the throne existed i..e. when the tyrant had all the power. The golden company is an army of mercenaries those aren't reliable for anything. They will leave as soon as it looks like they will die. You can only buy support for so long.A couple thousand gold cloaks have kept order in King's landing. Do you see any rioting in King's landing? All that food in High Garden got to King's landing. Popular uprising don't occur that often and when they do they are usually quelled rather easily by brutal Tyrants. Dorne and High Garden forces have already been defeated. The Lannisters have by the best and largest military forces in the South. There is practically no one left in the South to challenge her. Only the Knights of the Vale really remain. As far as leaders take away Jon and Dany and there's no one left to lead a revolt. Cersei already paid off a huge debt to the Iron Bank. If she wins, she'd have no problem paying off the debt for the Gold Company.Even with the Golden Company, Cersei doesn't have the army to control the south, let alone the north once that army marches back down south. Remember the Golden Company is 20,000 troops, but a million people live in Kings Landing alone. She can't keep the peace without the support of the other great houses (or whatever is left of them) and she absolutely needs the resources of High Garden, Dorne, etc. to survive and pay back the Iron Bank, but she doesn't have the forces to keep those lands without the support of those people and their lords, and she won't get it because she is a tyrant. Tyrants keep power when they have the military force to keep power, Cersei quite simply doesn't have that and she never will. It is only a matter of time for her. Her treachery might buy her a bit more time, but the end game is the same, and not just because this a fantasy, because Martin could easily end this series with a tyrant on the throne, it is just that Cersei isn't the right tyrant. Frankly, I wouldn't be overly surprised if there is a tyrant on the thrown at the end. I just think it would be far more like to be Dany, as I can totally see her going full on villain. She has that cold viciousness that Cersei does and she could easily be triggered into a downward spiral (you know if her dragons die, Jon, Jorah, Tyrion, etc. all die as well). She will still defeat Cersei though because she will be much better positioned to do so with the better trained forces and the full support of the north if she leads the defeat of the Night King (she also would more than likely have the 3 Eyed Raven on her side). That said, I believe Dany dies and Jon ends up on the thrown after he defeats Cersei. As this has always been his story and that of his "siblings". Everyone else is just filler to get the story to the end point.Obviously at least one dragon will survive since it is a TV show but that is not a given. Valyrian steel and dragon glass kill white walkers. The dragons are needed for mass destruction of the dead. Of course, wildfire would work quite well against them too. As for the dragon, just need a bunch of the ballista.They can't defeat the Night King without the dragons. Thus at least 1 dragon will survive the fighting. Cersei also just isn't likeable. The people won't be on her side, which will eventually lead to her downfall. You can't keep power for long if no one wants you to. She is taking a position that will lead to the other side being the one the people back (unless it is the army of the dead). If they see any crack in the shield, they will bolt to Jon/Dany, especially as the whispers of Cersei's betrayal become louder and louder.Of course it won't because this is a show and they're not going to let Cersei win in the end. The fans of the show would hate that. The Night King will be defeated. Theon and the Hound will get their redemption even if they end up dying doing it. Cersei will be defeated. Only question is how. My guess is Jamie dies valiantly in battle. Arya takes his face and kills Cersei. The only real question is what happens between Jon and Dany. I suspect that will be addressed by her becoming pregnant.The problem with the Sansa/Arya twist is the scene where Sansa snuck into Arya's room. If they were conspiring together, there was no reason to have a confrontation behind closed doors with nobody else in the room.Cersei's plan won't work. Jamie was right, whoever wins in the North will march South and wipe her out. Her only shot was one of unity, especially if she stayed behind and Jon and Dany both died in the fight with the dead. She could have then taken the position, that I'm sorry they died defending us, but we lost a lot of good men as well. I did right by the kingdom, bend the knee. Her tactic will only serve to get her wiped out.
Thought it was funny when Cersei called Jamie the stupidest Lannister. Although I think Tyrion is giving him a good run for the title. How many more times can his advice be wrong before Dany changes his position to court jester?
Unity and hoping Jon and Dany die in the fighting is not a plan for victory. If Jon and Dany die, the dead most likely would have won. Letting your two enemies fight each other while you build up your forces is a good plan.
Cersei correctly surmised that one of the dragons is dead. If one dragon can die so can the others. Without the dragons, Jon and Dany's forces are very beatable. There were only 8000 Unsullied to start and at least 1000 should already be dead from fighting. Robb Stark's northern army only had 20K men and they were pretty much wiped out. The Dothraki are impressive but they aren't made for conducting sieges. If Jon and Dany defeat the dead, their forces will be significantly depleted.
Meanwhile Cersei is rebuilding her forces. 20k Gold Company mercenaries are on the way. Euron controls the seas. More ballista can be made. More wildfire can be produced. The way Qyburn was looking at the dead remains, I wouldn't be surprised if Cersei has her own dead (or half-dead) army.
What world do you live in? Brutal tyrants keep power quite well. Now and throughout human history. The people generally don't matter. It is the important power brokers that do. Hence her move to get the Iron Bank on her side. Cersei may not be liked but she's been an efficient and steady ruler. She's not oppressing the people. They are free to go about their daily lives. She's also a southerner.
Why would southerners flock to Jon and Dany? If I'm a southerner, I'm quite happy not to be sent north to fight and die. Jon is a northerner and Dany is a foreigner and they are both Targaryens. There is no desire to be ruled by Targaryens again after the Mad King. Refer to how the threat of Dany, the Unsullied and Dothraki was used to turn the Tarlys against the Tyrells who they were pledged to.
You ignore that the North is much less populated than the South and that much of their fighting men have already been killed. When Jon fought Ramsey Bolton, he had 2000 men including wildings and Ramsey had 5000. Those were all Northern men on both sides that got slaughtered and only the Knights of the Vale saved Jon from his own stupidity. Assuming Jon and Dany defeat the dead, many of their remaining forces are going to be killed doing so. Take away the dragons and Cersei would have a far superior hand. Heck if Dany and Jon are stupid enough to keep traveling by ship Euron would wipe them out.
Another significant advantage Cersei has is Qyburn and his little birds. They'd learn of any plots against Cersei before they were able to become a real threat.
Why would southerners want Dany to win? She'll remind them of the Mad King. She brings dragons which is bad. She brings Unsullied which is bad. She brings Dothraki which is really, really bad. Cersei and Jamie already showed how easy it was to use that against Dany by getting the Tarlys to turn on High Garden. Of course, the stories of how Dany burned the Tarlys alive will be thrown into the mix too. Most southerners won't Cersei may not be loved by southerners but neither is Jon or Dany. Except for fear most southerners have no reason to support Jon or Dany.
And let's think about the Southern "heirs" still alive. Edmure Tully, Robyn Arryn, and of course Samwell Tarly (though not a "Great House"). The Tyrell's and Martell's are seemingly wiped out and the only Baratheon left is the **** Gendry. Plus, you have Brienne of Tarth a mid-tier house. I'm sure there are plenty of other lords not on the show or in the books, but they won't provide much as they aren't great houses. All of the named people will support Jon and/or Dany. The Highgarden and Dornish forces are basically destroyed. The Lannister army isn't what it once was. An "army" of mercenaries won't win a war like this and Euron and his ships only work on the water, this won't be a water fight. Besides one dragon pass and the ships are all gone in an instant.
Cersei has virtually no shot at winning. And you keep mentioning the "Mad King" and act like Cersei isn't a "Mad Queen". She is just as crazy as the Mad King, and her actions will absolutely be known. And you know those are recent events not 20 years ago.
Can't believe we will be able to watch the end of the series before the 6th and 7th books in the series will be published. Going to really take the excitement out of reading the books, if they ever come out.
Can't believe we will be able to watch the end of the series before the 6th and 7th books in the series will be published. Going to really take the excitement out of reading the books, if they ever come out.
I think that was the plan. I never thought that we get the books while the show is still running.
The way the story goes in the series wait with greater anticipation the books. And there are too much money involved for not to publish the last 2 chapters
I should not be "sippin" watching this stuff..
Thought it could have been better for a return after such a long hiatus.
I didnt expect all six episodes to be action-packed start to finish, but this was far too slow. I know they needed to set some stuff up, but plenty of stuff didnt need as much screen time as it received.
Thought it could have been better for a return after such a long hiatus.
I didnt expect all six episodes to be action-packed start to finish, but this was far too slow. I know they needed to set some stuff up, but plenty of stuff didnt need as much screen time as it received.
I didn't mind the slow pace but the long dragon sequences didn't offer anything. It actually verified that the show is more about the show and not the story as it was tin the 6th season
Given the episode titles they have leaked already, just glower. No time at all to do anything more before the dead arrive.Thought it could have been better for a return after such a long hiatus.
I didnt expect all six episodes to be action-packed start to finish, but this was far too slow. I know they needed to set some stuff up, but plenty of stuff didnt need as much screen time as it received.
I didn't mind the slow pace but the long dragon sequences didn't offer anything. It actually verified that the show is more about the show and not the story as it was tin the 6th season
The dragon part was more of a drag on part (*beeps bike horn*) but the idea is to keep ramping up Dany and Jon's bond so when they're pitted against each other later it feels more meaningful.
There are a LOT of major characters in Winterfell now. Wonder if they'll do any actual damage to each other - Arya and the Hound seem like the wild cards there - or if they'll just kinda glower and bicker til the Night King shows up.
Given the episode titles they have leaked already, just glower. No time at all to do anything more before the dead arrive.Thought it could have been better for a return after such a long hiatus.
I didnt expect all six episodes to be action-packed start to finish, but this was far too slow. I know they needed to set some stuff up, but plenty of stuff didnt need as much screen time as it received.
I didn't mind the slow pace but the long dragon sequences didn't offer anything. It actually verified that the show is more about the show and not the story as it was tin the 6th season
The dragon part was more of a drag on part (*beeps bike horn*) but the idea is to keep ramping up Dany and Jon's bond so when they're pitted against each other later it feels more meaningful.
There are a LOT of major characters in Winterfell now. Wonder if they'll do any actual damage to each other - Arya and the Hound seem like the wild cards there - or if they'll just kinda glower and bicker til the Night King shows up.
My expectation for the rest of the season is episode 2 is the final preparations for the battle with the Night King. Episode 3, is the battle with the dead. I actually expect the humans to defeat the Night King in the north and in that episode and believe that to get it done, Jon will have to fulfill the prophecy and kill Dany to do it. Episode 4 will be mostly battle aftermath, regrouping, and the march south to take on Cersei. Episode 5 and probably into Episode 6 will be the battles for Kings Landing and I believe that Jamie will kill Cersei fulfilling that prophecy. The rest of Episode 6 will be the final aftermath and having everyone alive ending up back where they belong. I expect all of the remaining Starks to live, though wouldn't be surprised if Bran and/or Sansa end up perishing. I think Jamie is the only Lannister left (ends up with Brienne ruling Casterly Rock), though could see Tyrion making it through. I think Gendry survives and takes over his fathers kingdom and probably wed to Arya. I think Samwell ends up taking over his father's kingdom and basically running that whole part of the world as Jon's hand of the king.
Of course, I've probably got this all wrong, but that is the fun.
My expectation for the rest of the season is episode 2 is the final preparations for the battle with the Night King. Episode 3, is the battle with the dead. I actually expect the humans to defeat the Night King in the north and in that episode and believe that to get it done, Jon will have to fulfill the prophecy and kill Dany to do it. Episode 4 will be mostly battle aftermath, regrouping, and the march south to take on Cersei. Episode 5 and probably into Episode 6 will be the battles for Kings Landing and I believe that Jamie will kill Cersei fulfilling that prophecy. The rest of Episode 6 will be the final aftermath and having everyone alive ending up back where they belong. I expect all of the remaining Starks to live, though wouldn't be surprised if Bran and/or Sansa end up perishing. I think Jamie is the only Lannister left (ends up with Brienne ruling Casterly Rock), though could see Tyrion making it through. I think Gendry survives and takes over his fathers kingdom and probably wed to Arya. I think Samwell ends up taking over his father's kingdom and basically running that whole part of the world as Jon's hand of the king.
Of course, I've probably got this all wrong, but that is the fun.
My expectation for the rest of the season is episode 2 is the final preparations for the battle with the Night King. Episode 3, is the battle with the dead. I actually expect the humans to defeat the Night King in the north and in that episode and believe that to get it done, Jon will have to fulfill the prophecy and kill Dany to do it. Episode 4 will be mostly battle aftermath, regrouping, and the march south to take on Cersei. Episode 5 and probably into Episode 6 will be the battles for Kings Landing and I believe that Jamie will kill Cersei fulfilling that prophecy. The rest of Episode 6 will be the final aftermath and having everyone alive ending up back where they belong. I expect all of the remaining Starks to live, though wouldn't be surprised if Bran and/or Sansa end up perishing. I think Jamie is the only Lannister left (ends up with Brienne ruling Casterly Rock), though could see Tyrion making it through. I think Gendry survives and takes over his fathers kingdom and probably wed to Arya. I think Samwell ends up taking over his father's kingdom and basically running that whole part of the world as Jon's hand of the king.
Of course, I've probably got this all wrong, but that is the fun.
I think there is not much bitterness in that ending scenario..
Its been well documented that the ending is going to be so unexpected that some people will go mental and not accept it....or so ive heard.
I think Jon dies sacrificing himself while killing the Night king , Arya will probably be the only Stark left. The imp definitely lives and Jaime kills Cersei.
Bran I think will go back in the past in a sort of twist that will keep us guessing before the end credits roll out.
you don't think Jon killing Dany will cause bitterness?My expectation for the rest of the season is episode 2 is the final preparations for the battle with the Night King. Episode 3, is the battle with the dead. I actually expect the humans to defeat the Night King in the north and in that episode and believe that to get it done, Jon will have to fulfill the prophecy and kill Dany to do it. Episode 4 will be mostly battle aftermath, regrouping, and the march south to take on Cersei. Episode 5 and probably into Episode 6 will be the battles for Kings Landing and I believe that Jamie will kill Cersei fulfilling that prophecy. The rest of Episode 6 will be the final aftermath and having everyone alive ending up back where they belong. I expect all of the remaining Starks to live, though wouldn't be surprised if Bran and/or Sansa end up perishing. I think Jamie is the only Lannister left (ends up with Brienne ruling Casterly Rock), though could see Tyrion making it through. I think Gendry survives and takes over his fathers kingdom and probably wed to Arya. I think Samwell ends up taking over his father's kingdom and basically running that whole part of the world as Jon's hand of the king.
Of course, I've probably got this all wrong, but that is the fun.
I think there is not much bitterness in that ending scenario..
Its been well documented that the ending is going to be so unexpected that some people will go mental and not accept it....or so ive heard.
I think Jon dies sacrificing himself while killing the Night king , Arya will probably be the only Stark left. The imp definitely lives and Jaime kills Cersei.
Bran I think will go back in the past in a sort of twist that will keep us guessing before the end credits roll out.
you don't think Jon killing Dany will cause bitterness?My expectation for the rest of the season is episode 2 is the final preparations for the battle with the Night King. Episode 3, is the battle with the dead. I actually expect the humans to defeat the Night King in the north and in that episode and believe that to get it done, Jon will have to fulfill the prophecy and kill Dany to do it. Episode 4 will be mostly battle aftermath, regrouping, and the march south to take on Cersei. Episode 5 and probably into Episode 6 will be the battles for Kings Landing and I believe that Jamie will kill Cersei fulfilling that prophecy. The rest of Episode 6 will be the final aftermath and having everyone alive ending up back where they belong. I expect all of the remaining Starks to live, though wouldn't be surprised if Bran and/or Sansa end up perishing. I think Jamie is the only Lannister left (ends up with Brienne ruling Casterly Rock), though could see Tyrion making it through. I think Gendry survives and takes over his fathers kingdom and probably wed to Arya. I think Samwell ends up taking over his father's kingdom and basically running that whole part of the world as Jon's hand of the king.
Of course, I've probably got this all wrong, but that is the fun.
I think there is not much bitterness in that ending scenario..
Its been well documented that the ending is going to be so unexpected that some people will go mental and not accept it....or so ive heard.
I think Jon dies sacrificing himself while killing the Night king , Arya will probably be the only Stark left. The imp definitely lives and Jaime kills Cersei.
Bran I think will go back in the past in a sort of twist that will keep us guessing before the end credits roll out.
I think Dani will kill Jon.
Jon is clearly the Prince that was Promised. After all, the prophecy says that the stars will bleed and that he will be "reborn amidst salt and smoke." Well, when Jon Snow goes down, Ser Patrek is specifically mentioned as falling next to him (or on him? I forget). Patrek's surcoat was earlier described as a spattering of white stars on a midnight background, and when Wun Wun kills him blood spatters across his surcoat. So that's the stars bleeding. There is smoke from a nearby fire, and also Bowen Marsh is specifically described as crying, so there's your salt and smoke.
Salt + Smoke + Bleeding Stars + Melisandre being in the vicinity = reborn as the Prince that was Promised.
My expectation for the rest of the season is episode 2 is the final preparations for the battle with the Night King. Episode 3, is the battle with the dead. I actually expect the humans to defeat the Night King in the north and in that episode and believe that to get it done, Jon will have to fulfill the prophecy and kill Dany to do it. Episode 4 will be mostly battle aftermath, regrouping, and the march south to take on Cersei. Episode 5 and probably into Episode 6 will be the battles for Kings Landing and I believe that Jamie will kill Cersei fulfilling that prophecy. The rest of Episode 6 will be the final aftermath and having everyone alive ending up back where they belong. I expect all of the remaining Starks to live, though wouldn't be surprised if Bran and/or Sansa end up perishing. I think Jamie is the only Lannister left (ends up with Brienne ruling Casterly Rock), though could see Tyrion making it through. I think Gendry survives and takes over his fathers kingdom and probably wed to Arya. I think Samwell ends up taking over his father's kingdom and basically running that whole part of the world as Jon's hand of the king.probably the most plausible outcome. kudos to you if you nail the upcoming plot lines and end results.
Of course, I've probably got this all wrong, but that is the fun.
you don't think Jon killing Dany will cause bitterness?My expectation for the rest of the season is episode 2 is the final preparations for the battle with the Night King. Episode 3, is the battle with the dead. I actually expect the humans to defeat the Night King in the north and in that episode and believe that to get it done, Jon will have to fulfill the prophecy and kill Dany to do it. Episode 4 will be mostly battle aftermath, regrouping, and the march south to take on Cersei. Episode 5 and probably into Episode 6 will be the battles for Kings Landing and I believe that Jamie will kill Cersei fulfilling that prophecy. The rest of Episode 6 will be the final aftermath and having everyone alive ending up back where they belong. I expect all of the remaining Starks to live, though wouldn't be surprised if Bran and/or Sansa end up perishing. I think Jamie is the only Lannister left (ends up with Brienne ruling Casterly Rock), though could see Tyrion making it through. I think Gendry survives and takes over his fathers kingdom and probably wed to Arya. I think Samwell ends up taking over his father's kingdom and basically running that whole part of the world as Jon's hand of the king.
Of course, I've probably got this all wrong, but that is the fun.
I think there is not much bitterness in that ending scenario..
Its been well documented that the ending is going to be so unexpected that some people will go mental and not accept it....or so ive heard.
I think Jon dies sacrificing himself while killing the Night king , Arya will probably be the only Stark left. The imp definitely lives and Jaime kills Cersei.
Bran I think will go back in the past in a sort of twist that will keep us guessing before the end credits roll out.
I think Dani will kill Jon.
Martin loves prophecies. It is almost 100% guaranteed that Tyrion or Jamie kills Cersei. And I can't imagine that the show will alter that much from Martin's ending.you don't think Jon killing Dany will cause bitterness?My expectation for the rest of the season is episode 2 is the final preparations for the battle with the Night King. Episode 3, is the battle with the dead. I actually expect the humans to defeat the Night King in the north and in that episode and believe that to get it done, Jon will have to fulfill the prophecy and kill Dany to do it. Episode 4 will be mostly battle aftermath, regrouping, and the march south to take on Cersei. Episode 5 and probably into Episode 6 will be the battles for Kings Landing and I believe that Jamie will kill Cersei fulfilling that prophecy. The rest of Episode 6 will be the final aftermath and having everyone alive ending up back where they belong. I expect all of the remaining Starks to live, though wouldn't be surprised if Bran and/or Sansa end up perishing. I think Jamie is the only Lannister left (ends up with Brienne ruling Casterly Rock), though could see Tyrion making it through. I think Gendry survives and takes over his fathers kingdom and probably wed to Arya. I think Samwell ends up taking over his father's kingdom and basically running that whole part of the world as Jon's hand of the king.
Of course, I've probably got this all wrong, but that is the fun.
I think there is not much bitterness in that ending scenario..
Its been well documented that the ending is going to be so unexpected that some people will go mental and not accept it....or so ive heard.
I think Jon dies sacrificing himself while killing the Night king , Arya will probably be the only Stark left. The imp definitely lives and Jaime kills Cersei.
Bran I think will go back in the past in a sort of twist that will keep us guessing before the end credits roll out.
I think Dani will kill Jon.
Its kind of fun that were not sure which way it will go. If the show is true to the spirit of seasons 1-3, the people we care about most will make well-meaning but impulsive decisions and pay the price, while the bad, hard-hearted people will triumph. But in more recent seasons Ive come to expect more fan service in favor of the good guys. Probably the hardest thing to imagine is Jon actually sitting the throne. Too syrupy. Unless maybe he kills Dany first, so he has to brood sadly about it. More likely to see Sansa, as a former innocent now wizened. The darkest timeline (short of the Night King winning) is Cersei killing pretty much everybody and ruling.
Dani isn't essential to the story. Jon is.you don't think Jon killing Dany will cause bitterness?My expectation for the rest of the season is episode 2 is the final preparations for the battle with the Night King. Episode 3, is the battle with the dead. I actually expect the humans to defeat the Night King in the north and in that episode and believe that to get it done, Jon will have to fulfill the prophecy and kill Dany to do it. Episode 4 will be mostly battle aftermath, regrouping, and the march south to take on Cersei. Episode 5 and probably into Episode 6 will be the battles for Kings Landing and I believe that Jamie will kill Cersei fulfilling that prophecy. The rest of Episode 6 will be the final aftermath and having everyone alive ending up back where they belong. I expect all of the remaining Starks to live, though wouldn't be surprised if Bran and/or Sansa end up perishing. I think Jamie is the only Lannister left (ends up with Brienne ruling Casterly Rock), though could see Tyrion making it through. I think Gendry survives and takes over his fathers kingdom and probably wed to Arya. I think Samwell ends up taking over his father's kingdom and basically running that whole part of the world as Jon's hand of the king.
Of course, I've probably got this all wrong, but that is the fun.
I think there is not much bitterness in that ending scenario..
Its been well documented that the ending is going to be so unexpected that some people will go mental and not accept it....or so ive heard.
I think Jon dies sacrificing himself while killing the Night king , Arya will probably be the only Stark left. The imp definitely lives and Jaime kills Cersei.
Bran I think will go back in the past in a sort of twist that will keep us guessing before the end credits roll out.
I think Dani will kill Jon.
yep. This is the story of Aegon Targaryen the 6th of his nameDani isn't essential to the story. Jon is.you don't think Jon killing Dany will cause bitterness?My expectation for the rest of the season is episode 2 is the final preparations for the battle with the Night King. Episode 3, is the battle with the dead. I actually expect the humans to defeat the Night King in the north and in that episode and believe that to get it done, Jon will have to fulfill the prophecy and kill Dany to do it. Episode 4 will be mostly battle aftermath, regrouping, and the march south to take on Cersei. Episode 5 and probably into Episode 6 will be the battles for Kings Landing and I believe that Jamie will kill Cersei fulfilling that prophecy. The rest of Episode 6 will be the final aftermath and having everyone alive ending up back where they belong. I expect all of the remaining Starks to live, though wouldn't be surprised if Bran and/or Sansa end up perishing. I think Jamie is the only Lannister left (ends up with Brienne ruling Casterly Rock), though could see Tyrion making it through. I think Gendry survives and takes over his fathers kingdom and probably wed to Arya. I think Samwell ends up taking over his father's kingdom and basically running that whole part of the world as Jon's hand of the king.
Of course, I've probably got this all wrong, but that is the fun.
I think there is not much bitterness in that ending scenario..
Its been well documented that the ending is going to be so unexpected that some people will go mental and not accept it....or so ive heard.
I think Jon dies sacrificing himself while killing the Night king , Arya will probably be the only Stark left. The imp definitely lives and Jaime kills Cersei.
Bran I think will go back in the past in a sort of twist that will keep us guessing before the end credits roll out.
I think Dani will kill Jon.
Dani can die and it will not break the storytelling. If Jon died, it would objectively be poor writing since he's the central arc of the whole thing.
A result that would definitely make me go mental:
Everyone we love dies. Robin Arryn sucking his thumb in the vale during all the fighting sits on the iron throne.
Bran could still be a rider. In fact the way last season ended you could have interpreted Bran's eyes as him really warging into Viseron and bringing the wall down. He would have presumably done that because he knows how and where to kill the Night King and the wall had to come down for that to happen.A result that would definitely make me go mental:
Everyone we love dies. Robin Arryn sucking his thumb in the vale during all the fighting sits on the iron throne.
I'm doing a Game of Thrones death pool with some friends and Robyn is my mostly joke answer to the tiebreaker of who winds up on the throne (my real answer is no one).
I keep thinking about the "three dragon riders" stuff that was played up a lot in the books and talked about here. We know who they are now, but instead of 3 dragons vs none it looks like 2 on 1. But what if it's more like 1 vs 1 vs 1? Jon and Dany in conflict while battling the Night King. We've seen how she reacts when she's really challenged - mass crucifixions, dragon fire, etc. I think she's going to react very badly when she finds out Jon has the real claim and probably do something of a villain turn. Seriously doubt she'll become the Night Queen or whatever as some are speculating but they're definitely setting them up for a conflict and I don't think there's much chance both she and Jon survive. It's really a question of if he takes her out out of love (like in the Prince Who Was Promised legend) or in a fight.
Yep. Dani served her purpose of introducing dragons and giving context to the Targaryen aspect of Jon's life, but this is very much his story.yep. This is the story of Aegon Targaryen the 6th of his nameDani isn't essential to the story. Jon is.you don't think Jon killing Dany will cause bitterness?My expectation for the rest of the season is episode 2 is the final preparations for the battle with the Night King. Episode 3, is the battle with the dead. I actually expect the humans to defeat the Night King in the north and in that episode and believe that to get it done, Jon will have to fulfill the prophecy and kill Dany to do it. Episode 4 will be mostly battle aftermath, regrouping, and the march south to take on Cersei. Episode 5 and probably into Episode 6 will be the battles for Kings Landing and I believe that Jamie will kill Cersei fulfilling that prophecy. The rest of Episode 6 will be the final aftermath and having everyone alive ending up back where they belong. I expect all of the remaining Starks to live, though wouldn't be surprised if Bran and/or Sansa end up perishing. I think Jamie is the only Lannister left (ends up with Brienne ruling Casterly Rock), though could see Tyrion making it through. I think Gendry survives and takes over his fathers kingdom and probably wed to Arya. I think Samwell ends up taking over his father's kingdom and basically running that whole part of the world as Jon's hand of the king.
Of course, I've probably got this all wrong, but that is the fun.
I think there is not much bitterness in that ending scenario..
Its been well documented that the ending is going to be so unexpected that some people will go mental and not accept it....or so ive heard.
I think Jon dies sacrificing himself while killing the Night king , Arya will probably be the only Stark left. The imp definitely lives and Jaime kills Cersei.
Bran I think will go back in the past in a sort of twist that will keep us guessing before the end credits roll out.
I think Dani will kill Jon.
Dani can die and it will not break the storytelling. If Jon died, it would objectively be poor writing since he's the central arc of the whole thing.
Yep. Dani served her purpose of introducing dragons and giving context to the Targaryen aspect of Jon's life, but this is very much his story.yep. This is the story of Aegon Targaryen the 6th of his nameDani isn't essential to the story. Jon is.you don't think Jon killing Dany will cause bitterness?My expectation for the rest of the season is episode 2 is the final preparations for the battle with the Night King. Episode 3, is the battle with the dead. I actually expect the humans to defeat the Night King in the north and in that episode and believe that to get it done, Jon will have to fulfill the prophecy and kill Dany to do it. Episode 4 will be mostly battle aftermath, regrouping, and the march south to take on Cersei. Episode 5 and probably into Episode 6 will be the battles for Kings Landing and I believe that Jamie will kill Cersei fulfilling that prophecy. The rest of Episode 6 will be the final aftermath and having everyone alive ending up back where they belong. I expect all of the remaining Starks to live, though wouldn't be surprised if Bran and/or Sansa end up perishing. I think Jamie is the only Lannister left (ends up with Brienne ruling Casterly Rock), though could see Tyrion making it through. I think Gendry survives and takes over his fathers kingdom and probably wed to Arya. I think Samwell ends up taking over his father's kingdom and basically running that whole part of the world as Jon's hand of the king.
Of course, I've probably got this all wrong, but that is the fun.
I think there is not much bitterness in that ending scenario..
Its been well documented that the ending is going to be so unexpected that some people will go mental and not accept it....or so ive heard.
I think Jon dies sacrificing himself while killing the Night king , Arya will probably be the only Stark left. The imp definitely lives and Jaime kills Cersei.
Bran I think will go back in the past in a sort of twist that will keep us guessing before the end credits roll out.
I think Dani will kill Jon.
Dani can die and it will not break the storytelling. If Jon died, it would objectively be poor writing since he's the central arc of the whole thing.
Bran could still be a rider. In fact the way last season ended you could have interpreted Bran's eyes as him really warging into Viseron and bringing the wall down. He would have presumably done that because he knows how and where to kill the Night King and the wall had to come down for that to happen.
yep. This is the story of Aegon Targaryen the 6th of his nameYep. Dani served her purpose of introducing dragons and giving context to the Targaryen aspect of Jon's life, but this is very much his story.
Dani isn't essential to the story. Jon is.you don't think Jon killing Dany will cause bitterness?My expectation for the rest of the season is episode 2 is the final preparations for the battle with the Night King. Episode 3, is the battle with the dead. I actually expect the humans to defeat the Night King in the north and in that episode and believe that to get it done, Jon will have to fulfill the prophecy and kill Dany to do it. Episode 4 will be mostly battle aftermath, regrouping, and the march south to take on Cersei. Episode 5 and probably into Episode 6 will be the battles for Kings Landing and I believe that Jamie will kill Cersei fulfilling that prophecy. The rest of Episode 6 will be the final aftermath and having everyone alive ending up back where they belong. I expect all of the remaining Starks to live, though wouldn't be surprised if Bran and/or Sansa end up perishing. I think Jamie is the only Lannister left (ends up with Brienne ruling Casterly Rock), though could see Tyrion making it through. I think Gendry survives and takes over his fathers kingdom and probably wed to Arya. I think Samwell ends up taking over his father's kingdom and basically running that whole part of the world as Jon's hand of the king.
Of course, I've probably got this all wrong, but that is the fun.
I think there is not much bitterness in that ending scenario..
Its been well documented that the ending is going to be so unexpected that some people will go mental and not accept it....or so ive heard.
I think Jon dies sacrificing himself while killing the Night king , Arya will probably be the only Stark left. The imp definitely lives and Jaime kills Cersei.
Bran I think will go back in the past in a sort of twist that will keep us guessing before the end credits roll out.
I think Dani will kill Jon.
Dani can die and it will not break the storytelling. If Jon died, it would objectively be poor writing since he's the central arc of the whole thing.
I'll take almost any ending over Jon triumphing. I don't see Jon as the central arc. The central arc is the contest for the Iron Throne and Jon has played essentially no roll in that until now while Dany has been a major player.Dani isn't essential to the story. Jon is.you don't think Jon killing Dany will cause bitterness?My expectation for the rest of the season is episode 2 is the final preparations for the battle with the Night King. Episode 3, is the battle with the dead. I actually expect the humans to defeat the Night King in the north and in that episode and believe that to get it done, Jon will have to fulfill the prophecy and kill Dany to do it. Episode 4 will be mostly battle aftermath, regrouping, and the march south to take on Cersei. Episode 5 and probably into Episode 6 will be the battles for Kings Landing and I believe that Jamie will kill Cersei fulfilling that prophecy. The rest of Episode 6 will be the final aftermath and having everyone alive ending up back where they belong. I expect all of the remaining Starks to live, though wouldn't be surprised if Bran and/or Sansa end up perishing. I think Jamie is the only Lannister left (ends up with Brienne ruling Casterly Rock), though could see Tyrion making it through. I think Gendry survives and takes over his fathers kingdom and probably wed to Arya. I think Samwell ends up taking over his father's kingdom and basically running that whole part of the world as Jon's hand of the king.
Of course, I've probably got this all wrong, but that is the fun.
I think there is not much bitterness in that ending scenario..
Its been well documented that the ending is going to be so unexpected that some people will go mental and not accept it....or so ive heard.
I think Jon dies sacrificing himself while killing the Night king , Arya will probably be the only Stark left. The imp definitely lives and Jaime kills Cersei.
Bran I think will go back in the past in a sort of twist that will keep us guessing before the end credits roll out.
I think Dani will kill Jon.
Dani can die and it will not break the storytelling. If Jon died, it would objectively be poor writing since he's the central arc of the whole thing.
Robb is barely in the books. The show added all of that stuff because the actor was very popular and they wanted the Red Wedding to have a greater effect.Dani isn't essential to the story. Jon is.you don't think Jon killing Dany will cause bitterness?My expectation for the rest of the season is episode 2 is the final preparations for the battle with the Night King. Episode 3, is the battle with the dead. I actually expect the humans to defeat the Night King in the north and in that episode and believe that to get it done, Jon will have to fulfill the prophecy and kill Dany to do it. Episode 4 will be mostly battle aftermath, regrouping, and the march south to take on Cersei. Episode 5 and probably into Episode 6 will be the battles for Kings Landing and I believe that Jamie will kill Cersei fulfilling that prophecy. The rest of Episode 6 will be the final aftermath and having everyone alive ending up back where they belong. I expect all of the remaining Starks to live, though wouldn't be surprised if Bran and/or Sansa end up perishing. I think Jamie is the only Lannister left (ends up with Brienne ruling Casterly Rock), though could see Tyrion making it through. I think Gendry survives and takes over his fathers kingdom and probably wed to Arya. I think Samwell ends up taking over his father's kingdom and basically running that whole part of the world as Jon's hand of the king.
Of course, I've probably got this all wrong, but that is the fun.
I think there is not much bitterness in that ending scenario..
Its been well documented that the ending is going to be so unexpected that some people will go mental and not accept it....or so ive heard.
I think Jon dies sacrificing himself while killing the Night king , Arya will probably be the only Stark left. The imp definitely lives and Jaime kills Cersei.
Bran I think will go back in the past in a sort of twist that will keep us guessing before the end credits roll out.
I think Dani will kill Jon.
Dani can die and it will not break the storytelling. If Jon died, it would objectively be poor writing since he's the central arc of the whole thing.
Who appeared to be the focus of season 1? I'd say Ned Stark, out to thwart the Lannisters. Then it was mostly a struggle between Robb and the Lannisters, with vital subplots that affected the outcome (Catelyn's love for her daughters that freed Jaime; Robb's tragic decision to marry; the murderous fights among the Lannisters, etc., etc.).
What's been the central focus since the red wedding? You could certainly say it's the rise of Jon. You could also say it's the rise of Dany, or even Cersei triumphing over her many enemies as she continued being vicious but became smarter/more deadly about it (hello, high Sparrow!). Then there are more side plots than we can count.
We do need to know what happens to Jon - that's a good point, recalling how deep and how far back his arc goes. But it just seems too pat, too similar to the traditions of the epic convention that Martin wants to upend, for Jon to sit the throne in triumph.
The one ending I feel reasonably sure we should not get is the one that Varys, Tyrion, and the Onion Knight contemplated from the battlements of Winterfell: Jon and Dany vanquishing the enemies of the realm and living happily ever after. It just can't end that way, unless Martin sold out completely to fan service (likely with HBO twisting his arm). Only question is how dark it's going to be...
Made me think we need Dani riding Ghost episode 2 lolYep. Dani served her purpose of introducing dragons and giving context to the Targaryen aspect of Jon's life, but this is very much his story.yep. This is the story of Aegon Targaryen the 6th of his nameDani isn't essential to the story. Jon is.you don't think Jon killing Dany will cause bitterness?My expectation for the rest of the season is episode 2 is the final preparations for the battle with the Night King. Episode 3, is the battle with the dead. I actually expect the humans to defeat the Night King in the north and in that episode and believe that to get it done, Jon will have to fulfill the prophecy and kill Dany to do it. Episode 4 will be mostly battle aftermath, regrouping, and the march south to take on Cersei. Episode 5 and probably into Episode 6 will be the battles for Kings Landing and I believe that Jamie will kill Cersei fulfilling that prophecy. The rest of Episode 6 will be the final aftermath and having everyone alive ending up back where they belong. I expect all of the remaining Starks to live, though wouldn't be surprised if Bran and/or Sansa end up perishing. I think Jamie is the only Lannister left (ends up with Brienne ruling Casterly Rock), though could see Tyrion making it through. I think Gendry survives and takes over his fathers kingdom and probably wed to Arya. I think Samwell ends up taking over his father's kingdom and basically running that whole part of the world as Jon's hand of the king.
Of course, I've probably got this all wrong, but that is the fun.
I think there is not much bitterness in that ending scenario..
Its been well documented that the ending is going to be so unexpected that some people will go mental and not accept it....or so ive heard.
I think Jon dies sacrificing himself while killing the Night king , Arya will probably be the only Stark left. The imp definitely lives and Jaime kills Cersei.
Bran I think will go back in the past in a sort of twist that will keep us guessing before the end credits roll out.
I think Dani will kill Jon.
Dani can die and it will not break the storytelling. If Jon died, it would objectively be poor writing since he's the central arc of the whole thing.
Arguably a sexist interpretation.
I don't see how Jon killing Dani works. The Unsullied are pledged to Dany. The Dothraki are pledged to Dany. The dragons are bonded with Dany. Tyrion is pledged to Dany. Even Jon himself is pledged to Dany now. If Jon kills Dany, all hell would break loose. It would also be against his character. Even breaking his pledge would be. It would also go against his focus on stopping the Night King and the dead rather than who sits on the Iron Throne.Dany is ruthless and one tracked. I could absolutely see a scenario where she goes crazy and in her quest to kill the Night King starts killing innocents along the way, giving Jon no other option. Jon is also willing to do anything to protect the north and his people. If he has to kill her to fulfill a prophecy that will allow him to kill the Night King, he would.
In season 7, when the White Walker was killed and a bunch of the dead with him collapsed, they speculated that killing the Night King might destroy all the dead. I expect that the dead will be winning the battle and when things are bleakest either Jon or Dany will sacrifice themselves to kill the Night King probably in a dragon battle where another dragon is lost. I could see either doing so but it is more in Jon's nature to do so.
As for Jamie killing Cersei, I'd be surprised if that occurs. He's on the "becoming good" trendline. Killing Cersei would also kill his unborn child. Hard to see that happening even if Cersei were to succeed with having Tyrion killed. I'd speculate that Sansa or Sansa/Arya would be responsible for Cersei's demise probably with the inevitable Hound kills Mountain precursor fight. Now Arya could be wearing Jamie's face.
I don't see Jon as the central arc.
So on the Jon kills Dany rumors: in a way he has already killed his love for the prophecy. He escapes the hunting party, and betrays Yigrette. While it isnt his arrow that fells her, he feels that it was his because her death was a direct result of his actions. In the "Lightbringer = the Sword in the Darkness = The Night's Watch" interpretation of Jon being AA reborn, this fits well as the sacrificial tempering: He directs his Lightbringer to kill his love, which in turn allows him to grasp command of it (the Nights watch.)
Just my two cents from a huge nerd who has read the books too many times.
PS- I know the show has diverted in a major way from the books, but this Dany stuff has been too quick of a development in comparison. To the rest of the series.
Robb is barely in the books. The show added all of that stuff because the actor was very popular and they wanted the Red Wedding to have a greater effect.Dani isn't essential to the story. Jon is.you don't think Jon killing Dany will cause bitterness?My expectation for the rest of the season is episode 2 is the final preparations for the battle with the Night King. Episode 3, is the battle with the dead. I actually expect the humans to defeat the Night King in the north and in that episode and believe that to get it done, Jon will have to fulfill the prophecy and kill Dany to do it. Episode 4 will be mostly battle aftermath, regrouping, and the march south to take on Cersei. Episode 5 and probably into Episode 6 will be the battles for Kings Landing and I believe that Jamie will kill Cersei fulfilling that prophecy. The rest of Episode 6 will be the final aftermath and having everyone alive ending up back where they belong. I expect all of the remaining Starks to live, though wouldn't be surprised if Bran and/or Sansa end up perishing. I think Jamie is the only Lannister left (ends up with Brienne ruling Casterly Rock), though could see Tyrion making it through. I think Gendry survives and takes over his fathers kingdom and probably wed to Arya. I think Samwell ends up taking over his father's kingdom and basically running that whole part of the world as Jon's hand of the king.
Of course, I've probably got this all wrong, but that is the fun.
I think there is not much bitterness in that ending scenario..
Its been well documented that the ending is going to be so unexpected that some people will go mental and not accept it....or so ive heard.
I think Jon dies sacrificing himself while killing the Night king , Arya will probably be the only Stark left. The imp definitely lives and Jaime kills Cersei.
Bran I think will go back in the past in a sort of twist that will keep us guessing before the end credits roll out.
I think Dani will kill Jon.
Dani can die and it will not break the storytelling. If Jon died, it would objectively be poor writing since he's the central arc of the whole thing.
Who appeared to be the focus of season 1? I'd say Ned Stark, out to thwart the Lannisters. Then it was mostly a struggle between Robb and the Lannisters, with vital subplots that affected the outcome (Catelyn's love for her daughters that freed Jaime; Robb's tragic decision to marry; the murderous fights among the Lannisters, etc., etc.).
What's been the central focus since the red wedding? You could certainly say it's the rise of Jon. You could also say it's the rise of Dany, or even Cersei triumphing over her many enemies as she continued being vicious but became smarter/more deadly about it (hello, high Sparrow!). Then there are more side plots than we can count.
We do need to know what happens to Jon - that's a good point, recalling how deep and how far back his arc goes. But it just seems too pat, too similar to the traditions of the epic convention that Martin wants to upend, for Jon to sit the throne in triumph.
The one ending I feel reasonably sure we should not get is the one that Varys, Tyrion, and the Onion Knight contemplated from the battlements of Winterfell: Jon and Dany vanquishing the enemies of the realm and living happily ever after. It just can't end that way, unless Martin sold out completely to fan service (likely with HBO twisting his arm). Only question is how dark it's going to be...
Reading the books, this is a story about Jon. Everything that happens sets up for him to be the prophecy. Every other character (even the major ones) are there to get Jon to where he needs to be. The only other logical conclusion is Jamie, but he isn't prominent enough in the books for this to be his story.
He absolutely would write a traditional story. This is a story at its heart about good triumphing over evil. And everything throughout the books and the show has pointed to Jon being the focal point. Everything else has all been leading to Jon being where he needs to be and when he needs to be there.Robb is barely in the books. The show added all of that stuff because the actor was very popular and they wanted the Red Wedding to have a greater effect.Dani isn't essential to the story. Jon is.you don't think Jon killing Dany will cause bitterness?My expectation for the rest of the season is episode 2 is the final preparations for the battle with the Night King. Episode 3, is the battle with the dead. I actually expect the humans to defeat the Night King in the north and in that episode and believe that to get it done, Jon will have to fulfill the prophecy and kill Dany to do it. Episode 4 will be mostly battle aftermath, regrouping, and the march south to take on Cersei. Episode 5 and probably into Episode 6 will be the battles for Kings Landing and I believe that Jamie will kill Cersei fulfilling that prophecy. The rest of Episode 6 will be the final aftermath and having everyone alive ending up back where they belong. I expect all of the remaining Starks to live, though wouldn't be surprised if Bran and/or Sansa end up perishing. I think Jamie is the only Lannister left (ends up with Brienne ruling Casterly Rock), though could see Tyrion making it through. I think Gendry survives and takes over his fathers kingdom and probably wed to Arya. I think Samwell ends up taking over his father's kingdom and basically running that whole part of the world as Jon's hand of the king.
Of course, I've probably got this all wrong, but that is the fun.
I think there is not much bitterness in that ending scenario..
Its been well documented that the ending is going to be so unexpected that some people will go mental and not accept it....or so ive heard.
I think Jon dies sacrificing himself while killing the Night king , Arya will probably be the only Stark left. The imp definitely lives and Jaime kills Cersei.
Bran I think will go back in the past in a sort of twist that will keep us guessing before the end credits roll out.
I think Dani will kill Jon.
Dani can die and it will not break the storytelling. If Jon died, it would objectively be poor writing since he's the central arc of the whole thing.
Who appeared to be the focus of season 1? I'd say Ned Stark, out to thwart the Lannisters. Then it was mostly a struggle between Robb and the Lannisters, with vital subplots that affected the outcome (Catelyn's love for her daughters that freed Jaime; Robb's tragic decision to marry; the murderous fights among the Lannisters, etc., etc.).
What's been the central focus since the red wedding? You could certainly say it's the rise of Jon. You could also say it's the rise of Dany, or even Cersei triumphing over her many enemies as she continued being vicious but became smarter/more deadly about it (hello, high Sparrow!). Then there are more side plots than we can count.
We do need to know what happens to Jon - that's a good point, recalling how deep and how far back his arc goes. But it just seems too pat, too similar to the traditions of the epic convention that Martin wants to upend, for Jon to sit the throne in triumph.
The one ending I feel reasonably sure we should not get is the one that Varys, Tyrion, and the Onion Knight contemplated from the battlements of Winterfell: Jon and Dany vanquishing the enemies of the realm and living happily ever after. It just can't end that way, unless Martin sold out completely to fan service (likely with HBO twisting his arm). Only question is how dark it's going to be...
Reading the books, this is a story about Jon. Everything that happens sets up for him to be the prophecy. Every other character (even the major ones) are there to get Jon to where he needs to be. The only other logical conclusion is Jamie, but he isn't prominent enough in the books for this to be his story.
Haven't read the books, so can't comment on that.
But do you really think he'd write such a traditional story - where the unwanted boy goes through hardship, turns out to be the prince who was promised, and then goes on to save the realm and reign?
I suppose it's possible; maybe the other deaths do enough to create real tension and he still thinks people want the traditional hero's journey for somebody. But I'd consider it disappointing if there wasn't a significant twist.
just throwing this out there for conjecture -- what's the possibility that the living cannot hold/defeat the dead at Winterfell and have to beat a hasty retreat to King's Landing where by episode 5/beginning of 6, the remaining living forces use the better fortified King's Landing to defeat the dead and have the final battle for the Iron Throne?
I don't see it as likely but if Jon were to take out Dany, that would be the best place and time to do it --> when the dead are defeated and he doesn't need the Dothraki or Unsullied to fight that battle any longer. Also, whoever is destined to kill Cersei would be in the city to do so.
just throwing this out there for conjecture -- what's the possibility that the living cannot hold/defeat the dead at Winterfell and have to beat a hasty retreat to King's Landing where by episode 5/beginning of 6, the remaining living forces use the better fortified King's Landing to defeat the dead and have the final battle for the Iron Throne?
I don't see it as likely but if Jon were to take out Dany, that would be the best place and time to do it --> when the dead are defeated and he doesn't need the Dothraki or Unsullied to fight that battle any longer. Also, whoever is destined to kill Cersei would be in the city to do so.
Here's a related mystery: at least twice, characters have had visions of the throne hall in King's Landing - the hall empty, and snow falling in through a hole in the roof. Dany saw that when she visited the House of the Undying, and Bran saw it when he was in his early three-eyed raven days.
So, what did it mean? Was it just a metaphor, or is something going to punch a hole in the throne hall and empty it out - something like Viseryon?
just throwing this out there for conjecture -- what's the possibility that the living cannot hold/defeat the dead at Winterfell and have to beat a hasty retreat to King's Landing where by episode 5/beginning of 6, the remaining living forces use the better fortified King's Landing to defeat the dead and have the final battle for the Iron Throne?
I don't see it as likely but if Jon were to take out Dany, that would be the best place and time to do it --> when the dead are defeated and he doesn't need the Dothraki or Unsullied to fight that battle any longer. Also, whoever is destined to kill Cersei would be in the city to do so.
Here's a related mystery: at least twice, characters have had visions of the throne hall in King's Landing - the hall empty, and snow falling in through a hole in the roof. Dany saw that when she visited the House of the Undying, and Bran saw it when he was in his early three-eyed raven days.
So, what did it mean? Was it just a metaphor, or is something going to punch a hole in the throne hall and empty it out - something like Viseryon?
I always liked that because it can be read at least 2 ways - one is that winter, in the form of the Night King, will take/threaten the Iron Throne, the other is that "snow", in the form of Jon Snow, will. And it could even be both in succession! Don't know how literal the hole in the roof will be but the conflict is coming there I'd say.
just throwing this out there for conjecture -- what's the possibility that the living cannot hold/defeat the dead at Winterfell and have to beat a hasty retreat to King's Landing where by episode 5/beginning of 6, the remaining living forces use the better fortified King's Landing to defeat the dead and have the final battle for the Iron Throne?
I say this with very little authority: If there is a "winner" of the Game of Thrones, I think it will be Sansa. I think she has the cleanest ark on the show and isn't the most obvious (Jon Snow is the most obvious). That would probably mean Jon and Dany die.
I'd put a dollar on that.
I say this with very little authority: If there is a "winner" of the Game of Thrones, I think it will be Sansa. I think she has the cleanest ark on the show and isn't the most obvious (Jon Snow is the most obvious). That would probably mean Jon and Dany die.They departed so much from the books with her it is unlikely she ends up on top given her storyline in the books.
I'd put a dollar on that.
I say this with very little authority: If there is a "winner" of the Game of Thrones, I think it will be Sansa. I think she has the cleanest ark on the show and isn't the most obvious (Jon Snow is the most obvious). That would probably mean Jon and Dany die.
I'd put a dollar on that.
I would agree that Jon or Dany (or both) ending up on top at the end would run contrary to what the bigger themes of the show have been over the entire course of the series.
I say this with very little authority: If there is a "winner" of the Game of Thrones, I think it will be Sansa. I think she has the cleanest ark on the show and isn't the most obvious (Jon Snow is the most obvious). That would probably mean Jon and Dany die.
I'd put a dollar on that.
I would agree that Jon or Dany (or both) ending up on top at the end would run contrary to what the bigger themes of the show have been over the entire course of the series.
just throwing this out there for conjecture -- what's the possibility that the living cannot hold/defeat the dead at Winterfell and have to beat a hasty retreat to King's Landing where by episode 5/beginning of 6, the remaining living forces use the better fortified King's Landing to defeat the dead and have the final battle for the Iron Throne?
I don't see it as likely but if Jon were to take out Dany, that would be the best place and time to do it --> when the dead are defeated and he doesn't need the Dothraki or Unsullied to fight that battle any longer. Also, whoever is destined to kill Cersei would be in the city to do so.
Here's a related mystery: at least twice, characters have had visions of the throne hall in King's Landing - the hall empty, and snow falling in through a hole in the roof. Dany saw that when she visited the House of the Undying, and Bran saw it when he was in his early three-eyed raven days.
So, what did it mean? Was it just a metaphor, or is something going to punch a hole in the throne hall and empty it out - something like Viseryon?
I always liked that because it can be read at least 2 ways - one is that winter, in the form of the Night King, will take/threaten the Iron Throne, the other is that "snow", in the form of Jon Snow, will. And it could even be both in succession! Don't know how literal the hole in the roof will be but the conflict is coming there I'd say.
I've seen speculation that the coming Battle of Winterfell against the undead will be a rout, which would make sense given the timing. There needs to be a major defeat that causes everything to appear lost before the final salvation.
So it would make sense that the battle would ultimately end up at King's Landing.
I also agree with the speculation I've seen that the Night King threat will be resolved before the final episode, and the final episode will involve a last struggle amongst the survivors as to how power will be disposed moving forward.
My hope is that the show actually ends with NOBODY on the iron throne, and the result of the "game of thrones," at long last, is that the game ends, and the realm moves forward with some different path for how the people will be ruled.
But that might be too heavy a lift given they only have 6 episodes.
I say this with very little authority: If there is a "winner" of the Game of Thrones, I think it will be Sansa. I think she has the cleanest ark on the show and isn't the most obvious (Jon Snow is the most obvious). That would probably mean Jon and Dany die.
I'd put a dollar on that.
I would agree that Jon or Dany (or both) ending up on top at the end would run contrary to what the bigger themes of the show have been over the entire course of the series.
Which themes are you referring to when you say this? I think most people misunderstand what George RR Martin was actually doing.
If you think the show/book is all about twists and shocking moments that defy expectations, youre misinterpreting what makes this creative endeavor unique.
I say this with very little authority: If there is a "winner" of the Game of Thrones, I think it will be Sansa. I think she has the cleanest ark on the show and isn't the most obvious (Jon Snow is the most obvious). That would probably mean Jon and Dany die.
I'd put a dollar on that.
I would agree that Jon or Dany (or both) ending up on top at the end would run contrary to what the bigger themes of the show have been over the entire course of the series.
Which themes are you referring to when you say this? I think most people misunderstand what George RR Martin was actually doing.
If you think the show/book is all about twists and shocking moments that defy expectations, youre misinterpreting what makes this creative endeavor unique.
I say this with very little authority: If there is a "winner" of the Game of Thrones, I think it will be Sansa. I think she has the cleanest ark on the show and isn't the most obvious (Jon Snow is the most obvious). That would probably mean Jon and Dany die.
I'd put a dollar on that.
I would agree that Jon or Dany (or both) ending up on top at the end would run contrary to what the bigger themes of the show have been over the entire course of the series.
Which themes are you referring to when you say this? I think most people misunderstand what George RR Martin was actually doing.
If you think the show/book is all about twists and shocking moments that defy expectations, youre misinterpreting what makes this creative endeavor unique.
Which themes are you referring to when you say this? I think most people misunderstand what George RR Martin was actually doing.
If you think the show/book is all about twists and shocking moments that defy expectations, youre misinterpreting what makes this creative endeavor unique.
Maybe, in a fit of loss, Cersei blows up the Red Keep with wildfyre, killing Jamie along with her.just throwing this out there for conjecture -- what's the possibility that the living cannot hold/defeat the dead at Winterfell and have to beat a hasty retreat to King's Landing where by episode 5/beginning of 6, the remaining living forces use the better fortified King's Landing to defeat the dead and have the final battle for the Iron Throne?
I don't see it as likely but if Jon were to take out Dany, that would be the best place and time to do it --> when the dead are defeated and he doesn't need the Dothraki or Unsullied to fight that battle any longer. Also, whoever is destined to kill Cersei would be in the city to do so.
Here's a related mystery: at least twice, characters have had visions of the throne hall in King's Landing - the hall empty, and snow falling in through a hole in the roof. Dany saw that when she visited the House of the Undying, and Bran saw it when he was in his early three-eyed raven days.
So, what did it mean? Was it just a metaphor, or is something going to punch a hole in the throne hall and empty it out - something like Viseryon?
I always liked that because it can be read at least 2 ways - one is that winter, in the form of the Night King, will take/threaten the Iron Throne, the other is that "snow", in the form of Jon Snow, will. And it could even be both in succession! Don't know how literal the hole in the roof will be but the conflict is coming there I'd say.
I've seen speculation that the coming Battle of Winterfell against the undead will be a rout, which would make sense given the timing. There needs to be a major defeat that causes everything to appear lost before the final salvation.
So it would make sense that the battle would ultimately end up at King's Landing.
I also agree with the speculation I've seen that the Night King threat will be resolved before the final episode, and the final episode will involve a last struggle amongst the survivors as to how power will be disposed moving forward.
My hope is that the show actually ends with NOBODY on the iron throne, and the result of the "game of thrones," at long last, is that the game ends, and the realm moves forward with some different path for how the people will be ruled.
But that might be too heavy a lift given they only have 6 episodes.
I agree with about all of this, especially the desire for another widescale gut punch. Basically Hardhome x10, including much worse luck for the named characters.
Kings' Landing makes sense symbolically and even strategically - the biggest weakness of the army of the dead is that so far they don't go in the water. Night King can fly now but that's about it. So it seems to fit.
I think the big fight in the 2nd-to-last episode with the power struggle in the aftermath is very on-brand for Game of Thrones. Probably with Cersei as the big threat that finally gets taken down. And I do expect there will be no throne at the end (not necessarily no clear ruler/leader though) - too much "break the wheel" talk. The fitting and likely end for the throne is to be melted down by dragonfire, though the symbolism is very different depending on whether Night King/Dany/Jon does it.
Maybe, in a fit of loss, Cersei blows up the Red Keep with wildfyre, killing Jamie along with her.just throwing this out there for conjecture -- what's the possibility that the living cannot hold/defeat the dead at Winterfell and have to beat a hasty retreat to King's Landing where by episode 5/beginning of 6, the remaining living forces use the better fortified King's Landing to defeat the dead and have the final battle for the Iron Throne?
I don't see it as likely but if Jon were to take out Dany, that would be the best place and time to do it --> when the dead are defeated and he doesn't need the Dothraki or Unsullied to fight that battle any longer. Also, whoever is destined to kill Cersei would be in the city to do so.
Here's a related mystery: at least twice, characters have had visions of the throne hall in King's Landing - the hall empty, and snow falling in through a hole in the roof. Dany saw that when she visited the House of the Undying, and Bran saw it when he was in his early three-eyed raven days.
So, what did it mean? Was it just a metaphor, or is something going to punch a hole in the throne hall and empty it out - something like Viseryon?
I always liked that because it can be read at least 2 ways - one is that winter, in the form of the Night King, will take/threaten the Iron Throne, the other is that "snow", in the form of Jon Snow, will. And it could even be both in succession! Don't know how literal the hole in the roof will be but the conflict is coming there I'd say.
I've seen speculation that the coming Battle of Winterfell against the undead will be a rout, which would make sense given the timing. There needs to be a major defeat that causes everything to appear lost before the final salvation.
So it would make sense that the battle would ultimately end up at King's Landing.
I also agree with the speculation I've seen that the Night King threat will be resolved before the final episode, and the final episode will involve a last struggle amongst the survivors as to how power will be disposed moving forward.
My hope is that the show actually ends with NOBODY on the iron throne, and the result of the "game of thrones," at long last, is that the game ends, and the realm moves forward with some different path for how the people will be ruled.
But that might be too heavy a lift given they only have 6 episodes.
I agree with about all of this, especially the desire for another widescale gut punch. Basically Hardhome x10, including much worse luck for the named characters.
Kings' Landing makes sense symbolically and even strategically - the biggest weakness of the army of the dead is that so far they don't go in the water. Night King can fly now but that's about it. So it seems to fit.
I think the big fight in the 2nd-to-last episode with the power struggle in the aftermath is very on-brand for Game of Thrones. Probably with Cersei as the big threat that finally gets taken down. And I do expect there will be no throne at the end (not necessarily no clear ruler/leader though) - too much "break the wheel" talk. The fitting and likely end for the throne is to be melted down by dragonfire, though the symbolism is very different depending on whether Night King/Dany/Jon does it.
I've seen speculation that the coming Battle of Winterfell against the undead will be a rout, which would make sense given the timing. There needs to be a major defeat that causes everything to appear lost before the final salvation.
I don't think it's twists and shocking moments, per se. But Martin has said (many times) that conventional fantasy novels about evil dark lords and heroes of pure light usually bore him; he likes gray characters who do both good and evil. He's also defended the violence in his books as reflecting the mideval world - when there was a great deal of violence, affecting the high and the low, and unexpected contingencies derailing the best laid plans. History generally doesn't spool out as an inevitability.
I admire Tolkien greatly. His books had enormous influence on me. And the trope that he sort of establishedthe idea of the Dark Lord and his Evil Minionsin the hands of lesser writers over the years and decades has not served the genre well. It has been beaten to death. The battle of good and evil is a great subject for any book and certainly for a fantasy book, but I think ultimately the battle between good and evil is weighed within the individual human heart and not necessarily between an army of people dressed in white and an army of people dressed in black. When I look at the world, I see that most real living breathing human beings are grey.
I think that both Dany and Jon and those with magic must die. This means Mel, Bran and anyone with magic will have to perish to start the new age. I think that is the bittersweet end. But I think Jon is Azor Ahai and lead folks to victory in the process.QuoteI don't think it's twists and shocking moments, per se. But Martin has said (many times) that conventional fantasy novels about evil dark lords and heroes of pure light usually bore him; he likes gray characters who do both good and evil. He's also defended the violence in his books as reflecting the mideval world - when there was a great deal of violence, affecting the high and the low, and unexpected contingencies derailing the best laid plans. History generally doesn't spool out as an inevitability.
One of this favorites is Lord of the Rings, why do you think that he imitiated Tolkien double R?QuoteI admire Tolkien greatly. His books had enormous influence on me. And the trope that he sort of establishedthe idea of the Dark Lord and his Evil Minionsin the hands of lesser writers over the years and decades has not served the genre well. It has been beaten to death. The battle of good and evil is a great subject for any book and certainly for a fantasy book, but I think ultimately the battle between good and evil is weighed within the individual human heart and not necessarily between an army of people dressed in white and an army of people dressed in black. When I look at the world, I see that most real living breathing human beings are grey.
So you clearly omit the qoute but use other parts of the qoute about admiring Tolkien. Even LOTR had some of this grey stuff because Frodo failed in his task. Sam was the true hero and they succeeded only due to the Gollum's ineptitude.
Which themes are you referring to when you say this? I think most people misunderstand what George RR Martin was actually doing.
If you think the show/book is all about twists and shocking moments that defy expectations, youre misinterpreting what makes this creative endeavor unique.
Subverting the trope of good intentions and ideals winning out; the noble hero triumphing; good vs evil; etc etc.
Generally the story of GoT so far has favored shrewd schemers who are willing to sacrifice their ideals in favor of recognizing reality.
The last couple of seasons it's kind of gone away from that. But early on the show was notable for how people who believed that right was on their side, who in an ordinary fantasy story would find a way to prevail in the end, met an unexpected and undignified death. Whereas people willing to sacrifice their principles in favor of practicalities have managed to survive.
The dragon queen and the noble heir to the throne ending up on top at the end would seem much more in line with a traditional fantasy story, as opposed to a story that likes to subvert those kinds of expectations.
Indeed, Jon is now the classic fantasy protagonist. He thought he was an illegitimate by-blow but actually he's a prince! He came back from the dead! He's literally the resurrected savior.
I would be surprised if he ended up making it to the end. Seems more likely that he was brought back from the dead so that he could die again, later, in a more meaningful sacrifice.
Which themes are you referring to when you say this? I think most people misunderstand what George RR Martin was actually doing.
If you think the show/book is all about twists and shocking moments that defy expectations, youre misinterpreting what makes this creative endeavor unique.
Subverting the trope of good intentions and ideals winning out; the noble hero triumphing; good vs evil; etc etc.
Generally the story of GoT so far has favored shrewd schemers who are willing to sacrifice their ideals in favor of recognizing reality.
The last couple of seasons it's kind of gone away from that. But early on the show was notable for how people who believed that right was on their side, who in an ordinary fantasy story would find a way to prevail in the end, met an unexpected and undignified death. Whereas people willing to sacrifice their principles in favor of practicalities have managed to survive.
The dragon queen and the noble heir to the throne ending up on top at the end would seem much more in line with a traditional fantasy story, as opposed to a story that likes to subvert those kinds of expectations.
Indeed, Jon is now the classic fantasy protagonist. He thought he was an illegitimate by-blow but actually he's a prince! He came back from the dead! He's literally the resurrected savior.
I would be surprised if he ended up making it to the end. Seems more likely that he was brought back from the dead so that he could die again, later, in a more meaningful sacrifice.
I think that's a standard interpretation of Game of Thrones... and perhaps it's right, but I've never felt it was accurate.
To me, this series has always been about telling a conventional "heroes journey" fantasy story, but using a unique style of storytelling
from multiple perspectives that magnifies secondary characters and masks the conventional arc.
The best way I can explain this is to imagine telling the original Star Wars trilogy over the course of 8 Game of Thrones style seasons.
Both stories are essentially a "heroes journey" about an unknown adopted nobody (Luke and Jon Snow). The difference is that instead of purely focusing on Luke/Jon the entire time, Game of Thrones heightens the roles of everyone else.
So imagine if Season 1 of "Star Wars" opens with the Organa family on Alderaan. You assume Bail Organa, the patriarch of the family, is the main character of the series. Maybe the show casts some big-name actor to play him. We meet him, his wife, his daughter Leia, various characters in his life, etc.
Meanwhile, we shift focus to a young Imperial Academy recruit named Biggs Darklighter. We meet his family. Maybe he has a girl he leaves behind. He's got an envious buddy named Luke from back home who we briefly meet.
There's other characters we focus on like Admiral Ackbar and his crew. The mysterious hermit named Ben. We spend a lot of time seeing the big baddie of the series, Wilhuff Tarkin do all sorts of terrible things to make us hate him. They'd all be given the same storytelling weight. They'd all be "main characters".
In classic "Game of Thrones" style storytelling, we'd assume Biggs Darklighter was one of the heroes of the story. Him defecting to the Rebel Alliance would be a massive plot point as we watched him rise up the ranks. Meanwhile, we'd assume Bail Organa was the star of the show. His storyline would heat up when his daughter Leia is kidnapped. We'd spend a lot of time dealing with the political intrigue of Alderaan and the fallout of his daughter's kidnap.
Of course, this would all culminate in the very shocking moment in which the entire planet of Alderaan - Bail Organa included, gets completely blown up by a Death Star. Think of the Red Wedding, but magnify it by millions of voices crying out in terror. Imagine how people would freak out as not only is the main star of the show eviscerated, but everyone near and dear to him that we've grown to love are also blasted into star dust.
It would come as a great shock when the pretty boy star of the show Biggs Darklighter is killed in combat by the shadowy figure who is second in command to Tarkin (Vader).
As the show progressed, we'd learn more about the "magic" and mysticism underlying the political drama. We'd learn that there's more to this shadowy Vader character than we believed.
Meanwhile, we follow the young farmboy Luke as he begins his journey.
Other key characters would be introduced along the way.
Following the Game of Thrones model, Luke probably doesn't even find out that he's the son of Darth Vader until Season 8 Episode 1. By then, we'd have seen so much death and destruction that people would assume the show-runners were sadists that had no intention of having a happy ending.
To me, this story has always been about Jon Snow's arc in the same way the original Star Wars is about Luke Skywalker.
Everything in this story feels like it adds context to Jon Snow's story.
- The Starks: Gives context to Jon's moral upbringing and crucial half of his family story
- Kings Landing: Gives context to the throne that belongs to Jon
- The Wall: Gives context to Jon's growth as a leader
- Dany: Her entire arc serves the purpose of giving us context to Jon's Targaryen background while subsequently introducing dragons
I feel like "Game of Thrones" is subversive, but not in the way people think. It's not about defying basic storytelling principles when it comes to the large arc. It's about how much depth and importance is given to the peripheral. Standard storytelling, you tell a story about Alexander the Great completely focused on Alexander the Great from start to finish. In this style, you tell a story about 330s BC Macedon told through the real-time perspective of multiple main characters - and don't even realize this is a story about Alexander the Great until the home stretch.
Problem is that fans have spent several years hyper-analyzing every aspect of the books/show so they expect more grand surprises. It almost undermines how pivotal it was to find out that Jon is indeed the true King. We have 5 episodes left. If this thing doesn't land on the conclusion of his arc, it would be really bizarre storytelling that would feel random and "twisty" for the sake of being twisty.
Ruthless: Lacking compassion or pity. Dany can be harsh but she isn't ruthless. She is certainly focused on the Iron Throne but she isn't one tracked. A ruthless one tracked person wouldn't have dealt with Slaver's Bay like Dany did. Dany most certainly isn't crazy. Dany's quest is the Iron Throne. Dealing with the Night King is a side bar for her.I don't see how Jon killing Dani works. The Unsullied are pledged to Dany. The Dothraki are pledged to Dany. The dragons are bonded with Dany. Tyrion is pledged to Dany. Even Jon himself is pledged to Dany now. If Jon kills Dany, all hell would break loose. It would also be against his character. Even breaking his pledge would be. It would also go against his focus on stopping the Night King and the dead rather than who sits on the Iron Throne.Dany is ruthless and one tracked. I could absolutely see a scenario where she goes crazy and in her quest to kill the Night King starts killing innocents along the way, giving Jon no other option. Jon is also willing to do anything to protect the north and his people. If he has to kill her to fulfill a prophecy that will allow him to kill the Night King, he would.
In season 7, when the White Walker was killed and a bunch of the dead with him collapsed, they speculated that killing the Night King might destroy all the dead. I expect that the dead will be winning the battle and when things are bleakest either Jon or Dany will sacrifice themselves to kill the Night King probably in a dragon battle where another dragon is lost. I could see either doing so but it is more in Jon's nature to do so.
As for Jamie killing Cersei, I'd be surprised if that occurs. He's on the "becoming good" trendline. Killing Cersei would also kill his unborn child. Hard to see that happening even if Cersei were to succeed with having Tyrion killed. I'd speculate that Sansa or Sansa/Arya would be responsible for Cersei's demise probably with the inevitable Hound kills Mountain precursor fight. Now Arya could be wearing Jamie's face.
I seriously doubt Cersei is pregnant. I think she was just manipulating Jamie and Tyrion. That is what she does. And again, Martin loves prophecies, the one with Cersei says her little brother kills her. Now the show could deviate from the books in that regard, but it would be a pretty big departure. And it absolutely would fit with Jamie's redemption story to kill his Mad Sister. Much like he killed the Mad King when he needed to go to protect the greater good. At his center, Jamie is a good man that will do anything to protect the greater good (for awhile to him his sister was the greater good).
The books and the show aren't the same and Martin isn't running the show. Cersei being strangled by her little brother was apparently only mentioned in the books. Besides prophecies are vague, often not literal and open to various interpretations and misinterpretations. Cersei's little brother strangling her with his hands might be Jamie (although he only has one hand), or it could be Tyrion or it could be Arya wearing Jamie or Tyrion's face
I could certainly see Cersei faking pregnancy for her own purposes. It makes sense with regards to Tyrion. However Jamie would figure out the ruse in a few months. I guess she could claim she miscarried. As for Jamie, he's not a good man at his center. A good man doesn't push Bran to his likely death from the Winterfell tower. Jamie didn't even try to threaten Bran into silence before he did it. It wouldnt surprise me if Jamie kills Cersei but I dont think Cersei having Tyrion killed would do it. Now if the Night King and dead reach Kings landing and Cerseis plan is to let them in and blow up all of Kings landing with Wildfire I could see him killing her
QuoteThe books and the show aren't the same and Martin isn't running the show. Cersei being strangled by her little brother was apparently only mentioned in the books. Besides prophecies are vague, often not literal and open to various interpretations and misinterpretations. Cersei's little brother strangling her with his hands might be Jamie (although he only has one hand), or it could be Tyrion or it could be Arya wearing Jamie or Tyrion's face
Which means we may or may not get a Hollywood ending.
Which themes are you referring to when you say this? I think most people misunderstand what George RR Martin was actually doing.
If you think the show/book is all about twists and shocking moments that defy expectations, youre misinterpreting what makes this creative endeavor unique.
Subverting the trope of good intentions and ideals winning out; the noble hero triumphing; good vs evil; etc etc.
Generally the story of GoT so far has favored shrewd schemers who are willing to sacrifice their ideals in favor of recognizing reality.
The last couple of seasons it's kind of gone away from that. But early on the show was notable for how people who believed that right was on their side, who in an ordinary fantasy story would find a way to prevail in the end, met an unexpected and undignified death. Whereas people willing to sacrifice their principles in favor of practicalities have managed to survive.
The dragon queen and the noble heir to the throne ending up on top at the end would seem much more in line with a traditional fantasy story, as opposed to a story that likes to subvert those kinds of expectations.
Indeed, Jon is now the classic fantasy protagonist. He thought he was an illegitimate by-blow but actually he's a prince! He came back from the dead! He's literally the resurrected savior.
I would be surprised if he ended up making it to the end. Seems more likely that he was brought back from the dead so that he could die again, later, in a more meaningful sacrifice.
I think that's a standard interpretation of Game of Thrones... and perhaps it's right, but I've never felt it was accurate.
To me, this series has always been about telling a conventional "heroes journey" fantasy story, but using a unique style of storytelling
from multiple perspectives that magnifies secondary characters and masks the conventional arc.
The best way I can explain this is to imagine telling the original Star Wars trilogy over the course of 8 Game of Thrones style seasons.
Both stories are essentially a "heroes journey" about an unknown adopted nobody (Luke and Jon Snow). The difference is that instead of purely focusing on Luke/Jon the entire time, Game of Thrones heightens the roles of everyone else.
So imagine if Season 1 of "Star Wars" opens with the Organa family on Alderaan. You assume Bail Organa, the patriarch of the family, is the main character of the series. Maybe the show casts some big-name actor to play him. We meet him, his wife, his daughter Leia, various characters in his life, etc.
Meanwhile, we shift focus to a young Imperial Academy recruit named Biggs Darklighter. We meet his family. Maybe he has a girl he leaves behind. He's got an envious buddy named Luke from back home who we briefly meet.
There's other characters we focus on like Admiral Ackbar and his crew. The mysterious hermit named Ben. We spend a lot of time seeing the big baddie of the series, Wilhuff Tarkin do all sorts of terrible things to make us hate him. They'd all be given the same storytelling weight. They'd all be "main characters".
In classic "Game of Thrones" style storytelling, we'd assume Biggs Darklighter was one of the heroes of the story. Him defecting to the Rebel Alliance would be a massive plot point as we watched him rise up the ranks. Meanwhile, we'd assume Bail Organa was the star of the show. His storyline would heat up when his daughter Leia is kidnapped. We'd spend a lot of time dealing with the political intrigue of Alderaan and the fallout of his daughter's kidnap.
Of course, this would all culminate in the very shocking moment in which the entire planet of Alderaan - Bail Organa included, gets completely blown up by a Death Star. Think of the Red Wedding, but magnify it by millions of voices crying out in terror. Imagine how people would freak out as not only is the main star of the show eviscerated, but everyone near and dear to him that we've grown to love are also blasted into star dust.
It would come as a great shock when the pretty boy star of the show Biggs Darklighter is killed in combat by the shadowy figure who is second in command to Tarkin (Vader).
As the show progressed, we'd learn more about the "magic" and mysticism underlying the political drama. We'd learn that there's more to this shadowy Vader character than we believed.
Meanwhile, we follow the young farmboy Luke as he begins his journey.
Other key characters would be introduced along the way.
Following the Game of Thrones model, Luke probably doesn't even find out that he's the son of Darth Vader until Season 8 Episode 1. By then, we'd have seen so much death and destruction that people would assume the show-runners were sadists that had no intention of having a happy ending.
To me, this story has always been about Jon Snow's arc in the same way the original Star Wars is about Luke Skywalker.
Everything in this story feels like it adds context to Jon Snow's story.
- The Starks: Gives context to Jon's moral upbringing and crucial half of his family story
- Kings Landing: Gives context to the throne that belongs to Jon
- The Wall: Gives context to Jon's growth as a leader
- Dany: Her entire arc serves the purpose of giving us context to Jon's Targaryen background while subsequently introducing dragons
I feel like "Game of Thrones" is subversive, but not in the way people think. It's not about defying basic storytelling principles when it comes to the large arc. It's about how much depth and importance is given to the peripheral. Standard storytelling, you tell a story about Alexander the Great completely focused on Alexander the Great from start to finish. In this style, you tell a story about 330s BC Macedon told through the real-time perspective of multiple main characters - and don't even realize this is a story about Alexander the Great until the home stretch.
Problem is that fans have spent several years hyper-analyzing every aspect of the books/show so they expect more grand surprises. It almost undermines how pivotal it was to find out that Jon is indeed the true King. We have 5 episodes left. If this thing doesn't land on the conclusion of his arc, it would be really bizarre storytelling that would feel random and "twisty" for the sake of being twisty.
oh, wouldn't that be a sweet twist.QuoteThe books and the show aren't the same and Martin isn't running the show. Cersei being strangled by her little brother was apparently only mentioned in the books. Besides prophecies are vague, often not literal and open to various interpretations and misinterpretations. Cersei's little brother strangling her with his hands might be Jamie (although he only has one hand), or it could be Tyrion or it could be Arya wearing Jamie or Tyrion's face
Which means we may or may not get a Hollywood ending.QuoteI could certainly see Cersei faking pregnancy for her own purposes. It makes sense with regards to Tyrion. However Jamie would figure out the ruse in a few months. I guess she could claim she miscarried. As for Jamie, he's not a good man at his center. A good man doesn't push Bran to his likely death from the Winterfell tower. Jamie didn't even try to threaten Bran into silence before he did it. It wouldnt surprise me if Jamie kills Cersei but I dont think Cersei having Tyrion killed would do it. Now if the Night King and dead reach Kings landing and Cerseis plan is to let them in and blow up all of Kings landing with Wildfire I could see him killing her
If the Night King makes it to King's Landing he may get his Night Queen....
My expectation for the rest of the season is episode 2 is the final preparations for the battle with the Night King. Episode 3, is the battle with the dead. I actually expect the humans to defeat the Night King in the north and in that episode and believe that to get it done, Jon will have to fulfill the prophecy and kill Dany to do it. Episode 4 will be mostly battle aftermath, regrouping, and the march south to take on Cersei. Episode 5 and probably into Episode 6 will be the battles for Kings Landing and I believe that Jamie will kill Cersei fulfilling that prophecy. The rest of Episode 6 will be the final aftermath and having everyone alive ending up back where they belong. I expect all of the remaining Starks to live, though wouldn't be surprised if Bran and/or Sansa end up perishing. I think Jamie is the only Lannister left (ends up with Brienne ruling Casterly Rock), though could see Tyrion making it through. I think Gendry survives and takes over his fathers kingdom and probably wed to Arya. I think Samwell ends up taking over his father's kingdom and basically running that whole part of the world as Jon's hand of the king.No, Jon is also Azor Ahai. He will thrust his sword (edit: or some sword since he has longclaw) into Melisandre's heart and turn it into "Lightbringer". He is , after all, the prince that was promised.
Of course, I've probably got this all wrong, but that is the fun.
Which themes are you referring to when you say this? I think most people misunderstand what George RR Martin was actually doing.
If you think the show/book is all about twists and shocking moments that defy expectations, youre misinterpreting what makes this creative endeavor unique.
Subverting the trope of good intentions and ideals winning out; the noble hero triumphing; good vs evil; etc etc.
Generally the story of GoT so far has favored shrewd schemers who are willing to sacrifice their ideals in favor of recognizing reality.
The last couple of seasons it's kind of gone away from that. But early on the show was notable for how people who believed that right was on their side, who in an ordinary fantasy story would find a way to prevail in the end, met an unexpected and undignified death. Whereas people willing to sacrifice their principles in favor of practicalities have managed to survive.
The dragon queen and the noble heir to the throne ending up on top at the end would seem much more in line with a traditional fantasy story, as opposed to a story that likes to subvert those kinds of expectations.
Indeed, Jon is now the classic fantasy protagonist. He thought he was an illegitimate by-blow but actually he's a prince! He came back from the dead! He's literally the resurrected savior.
I would be surprised if he ended up making it to the end. Seems more likely that he was brought back from the dead so that he could die again, later, in a more meaningful sacrifice.
I think that's a standard interpretation of Game of Thrones... and perhaps it's right, but I've never felt it was accurate.
To me, this series has always been about telling a conventional "heroes journey" fantasy story, but using a unique style of storytelling
from multiple perspectives that magnifies secondary characters and masks the conventional arc.
The best way I can explain this is to imagine telling the original Star Wars trilogy over the course of 8 Game of Thrones style seasons.
Both stories are essentially a "heroes journey" about an unknown adopted nobody (Luke and Jon Snow). The difference is that instead of purely focusing on Luke/Jon the entire time, Game of Thrones heightens the roles of everyone else.
So imagine if Season 1 of "Star Wars" opens with the Organa family on Alderaan. You assume Bail Organa, the patriarch of the family, is the main character of the series. Maybe the show casts some big-name actor to play him. We meet him, his wife, his daughter Leia, various characters in his life, etc.
Meanwhile, we shift focus to a young Imperial Academy recruit named Biggs Darklighter. We meet his family. Maybe he has a girl he leaves behind. He's got an envious buddy named Luke from back home who we briefly meet.
There's other characters we focus on like Admiral Ackbar and his crew. The mysterious hermit named Ben. We spend a lot of time seeing the big baddie of the series, Wilhuff Tarkin do all sorts of terrible things to make us hate him. They'd all be given the same storytelling weight. They'd all be "main characters".
In classic "Game of Thrones" style storytelling, we'd assume Biggs Darklighter was one of the heroes of the story. Him defecting to the Rebel Alliance would be a massive plot point as we watched him rise up the ranks. Meanwhile, we'd assume Bail Organa was the star of the show. His storyline would heat up when his daughter Leia is kidnapped. We'd spend a lot of time dealing with the political intrigue of Alderaan and the fallout of his daughter's kidnap.
Of course, this would all culminate in the very shocking moment in which the entire planet of Alderaan - Bail Organa included, gets completely blown up by a Death Star. Think of the Red Wedding, but magnify it by millions of voices crying out in terror. Imagine how people would freak out as not only is the main star of the show eviscerated, but everyone near and dear to him that we've grown to love are also blasted into star dust.
It would come as a great shock when the pretty boy star of the show Biggs Darklighter is killed in combat by the shadowy figure who is second in command to Tarkin (Vader).
As the show progressed, we'd learn more about the "magic" and mysticism underlying the political drama. We'd learn that there's more to this shadowy Vader character than we believed.
Meanwhile, we follow the young farmboy Luke as he begins his journey.
Other key characters would be introduced along the way.
Following the Game of Thrones model, Luke probably doesn't even find out that he's the son of Darth Vader until Season 8 Episode 1. By then, we'd have seen so much death and destruction that people would assume the show-runners were sadists that had no intention of having a happy ending.
To me, this story has always been about Jon Snow's arc in the same way the original Star Wars is about Luke Skywalker.
Everything in this story feels like it adds context to Jon Snow's story.
- The Starks: Gives context to Jon's moral upbringing and crucial half of his family story
- Kings Landing: Gives context to the throne that belongs to Jon
- The Wall: Gives context to Jon's growth as a leader
- Dany: Her entire arc serves the purpose of giving us context to Jon's Targaryen background while subsequently introducing dragons
I feel like "Game of Thrones" is subversive, but not in the way people think. It's not about defying basic storytelling principles when it comes to the large arc. It's about how much depth and importance is given to the peripheral. Standard storytelling, you tell a story about Alexander the Great completely focused on Alexander the Great from start to finish. In this style, you tell a story about 330s BC Macedon told through the real-time perspective of multiple main characters - and don't even realize this is a story about Alexander the Great until the home stretch.
Problem is that fans have spent several years hyper-analyzing every aspect of the books/show so they expect more grand surprises. It almost undermines how pivotal it was to find out that Jon is indeed the true King. We have 5 episodes left. If this thing doesn't land on the conclusion of his arc, it would be really bizarre storytelling that would feel random and "twisty" for the sake of being twisty.
Bran is going to go back in time, stop the execution of Ned Stark, and put him on the Iron Throne.Wonder how that would work? What is the best domino to save Ned? I'd guess the Hound not saving Loras.
Best ending ever.
Any number of things, but the most obvious and easiest would be Cersei not killing Robert.Bran is going to go back in time, stop the execution of Ned Stark, and put him on the Iron Throne.Wonder how that would work? What is the best domino to save Ned? I'd guess the Hound not saving Loras.
Best ending ever.
Bran is going to go back in time, stop the execution of Ned Stark, and put him on the Iron Throne.
Best ending ever.
Wonder how that would work? What is the best domino to save Ned? I'd guess the Hound not saving Loras.
Long story short, that child could be Gendry.Bran is going to go back in time, stop the execution of Ned Stark, and put him on the Iron Throne.
Best ending ever.
The best ending ever would be the Night King getting held off at Winterfell, playing his trump card by raising all the dead Starks in the vaults, they open the gate to let him in and say, "the North kneels to no one" and cut him to shreds while heavy metal music plays. Ghost helps.Wonder how that would work? What is the best domino to save Ned? I'd guess the Hound not saving Loras.
In the show, probably saving the life of the one Cersei child that was Robert's. In the book just telling Robert and Jon Arryn before he dies. Of course, winter still comes anyway and Robert's still a massive screwup but the defenses are a lot better.
The best ending ever would be the Night King getting held off at Winterfell, playing his trump card by raising all the dead Starks in the vaults, they open the gate to let him in and say, "the North kneels to no one" and cut him to shreds while heavy metal music plays. Ghost helps.
QuoteIn the show, probably saving the life of the one Cersei child that was Robert's. In the book just telling Robert and Jon Arryn before he dies. Of course, winter still comes anyway and Robert's still a massive screwup but the defenses are a lot better.Long story short, that child could be Gendry.
QuoteThe best ending ever would be the Night King getting held off at Winterfell, playing his trump card by raising all the dead Starks in the vaults, they open the gate to let him in and say, "the North kneels to no one" and cut him to shreds while heavy metal music plays. Ghost helps.
Your politics may suck, but your knack for storytelling is legendary. ;)
she never gave birth to Robert's child in the books. She had it aborted. Which also makes the prophecy true that she would only have 3 children.Long story short, that child could be Gendry.Bran is going to go back in time, stop the execution of Ned Stark, and put him on the Iron Throne.
Best ending ever.
The best ending ever would be the Night King getting held off at Winterfell, playing his trump card by raising all the dead Starks in the vaults, they open the gate to let him in and say, "the North kneels to no one" and cut him to shreds while heavy metal music plays. Ghost helps.Wonder how that would work? What is the best domino to save Ned? I'd guess the Hound not saving Loras.
In the show, probably saving the life of the one Cersei child that was Robert's. In the book just telling Robert and Jon Arryn before he dies. Of course, winter still comes anyway and Robert's still a massive screwup but the defenses are a lot better.
she never gave birth to Robert's child in the books. She had it aborted. Which also makes the prophecy true that she would only have 3 children.Long story short, that child could be Gendry.Bran is going to go back in time, stop the execution of Ned Stark, and put him on the Iron Throne.
Best ending ever.
The best ending ever would be the Night King getting held off at Winterfell, playing his trump card by raising all the dead Starks in the vaults, they open the gate to let him in and say, "the North kneels to no one" and cut him to shreds while heavy metal music plays. Ghost helps.Wonder how that would work? What is the best domino to save Ned? I'd guess the Hound not saving Loras.
In the show, probably saving the life of the one Cersei child that was Robert's. In the book just telling Robert and Jon Arryn before he dies. Of course, winter still comes anyway and Robert's still a massive screwup but the defenses are a lot better.
Gendry is Robert's son, but Cersei is not his mother.
I have an explanation but too long to type out. It's why I said long story short. Just a mention, she did say in the show that she doesn't know what happened to the child ("they took him away and didn't tell me what they did with him. And I never even visited him after he was buried">). Unless she lied about it it's possible Robert knew her intentions to murder Robert's child so he hid him. And she ordered to have ALL his basterdd children killed, not just Gendry. Just sayin.she never gave birth to Robert's child in the books. She had it aborted. Which also makes the prophecy true that she would only have 3 children.Long story short, that child could be Gendry.Bran is going to go back in time, stop the execution of Ned Stark, and put him on the Iron Throne.
Best ending ever.
The best ending ever would be the Night King getting held off at Winterfell, playing his trump card by raising all the dead Starks in the vaults, they open the gate to let him in and say, "the North kneels to no one" and cut him to shreds while heavy metal music plays. Ghost helps.Wonder how that would work? What is the best domino to save Ned? I'd guess the Hound not saving Loras.
In the show, probably saving the life of the one Cersei child that was Robert's. In the book just telling Robert and Jon Arryn before he dies. Of course, winter still comes anyway and Robert's still a massive screwup but the defenses are a lot better.
Gendry is Robert's son, but Cersei is not his mother.
Cersie also was aware of his existence, that's why he was wanted to be executed as well...no way Cersei execute's her lovechild with Robert if that were true.
she never gave birth to Robert's child in the books. She had it aborted. Which also makes the prophecy true that she would only have 3 children.Long story short, that child could be Gendry.Bran is going to go back in time, stop the execution of Ned Stark, and put him on the Iron Throne.
Best ending ever.
The best ending ever would be the Night King getting held off at Winterfell, playing his trump card by raising all the dead Starks in the vaults, they open the gate to let him in and say, "the North kneels to no one" and cut him to shreds while heavy metal music plays. Ghost helps.Wonder how that would work? What is the best domino to save Ned? I'd guess the Hound not saving Loras.
In the show, probably saving the life of the one Cersei child that was Robert's. In the book just telling Robert and Jon Arryn before he dies. Of course, winter still comes anyway and Robert's still a massive screwup but the defenses are a lot better.
Gendry is Robert's son, but Cersei is not his mother.
Cersie also was aware of his existence, that's why he was wanted to be executed as well...no way Cersei execute's her lovechild with Robert if that were true.
I think Sansa at least becomes Queen of the North and it may well happen before the end. The Northerners are already questioning Jon and they most likely would react negatively to finding out Jon is a Targaryen rather than a Stark.
Which themes are you referring to when you say this? I think most people misunderstand what George RR Martin was actually doing.
If you think the show/book is all about twists and shocking moments that defy expectations, youre misinterpreting what makes this creative endeavor unique.
Subverting the trope of good intentions and ideals winning out; the noble hero triumphing; good vs evil; etc etc.
Generally the story of GoT so far has favored shrewd schemers who are willing to sacrifice their ideals in favor of recognizing reality.
The last couple of seasons it's kind of gone away from that. But early on the show was notable for how people who believed that right was on their side, who in an ordinary fantasy story would find a way to prevail in the end, met an unexpected and undignified death. Whereas people willing to sacrifice their principles in favor of practicalities have managed to survive.
The dragon queen and the noble heir to the throne ending up on top at the end would seem much more in line with a traditional fantasy story, as opposed to a story that likes to subvert those kinds of expectations.
Indeed, Jon is now the classic fantasy protagonist. He thought he was an illegitimate by-blow but actually he's a prince! He came back from the dead! He's literally the resurrected savior.
I would be surprised if he ended up making it to the end. Seems more likely that he was brought back from the dead so that he could die again, later, in a more meaningful sacrifice.
I think that's a standard interpretation of Game of Thrones... and perhaps it's right, but I've never felt it was accurate.
To me, this series has always been about telling a conventional "heroes journey" fantasy story, but using a unique style of storytelling
from multiple perspectives that magnifies secondary characters and masks the conventional arc.
The best way I can explain this is to imagine telling the original Star Wars trilogy over the course of 8 Game of Thrones style seasons.
Both stories are essentially a "heroes journey" about an unknown adopted nobody (Luke and Jon Snow). The difference is that instead of purely focusing on Luke/Jon the entire time, Game of Thrones heightens the roles of everyone else.
So imagine if Season 1 of "Star Wars" opens with the Organa family on Alderaan. You assume Bail Organa, the patriarch of the family, is the main character of the series. Maybe the show casts some big-name actor to play him. We meet him, his wife, his daughter Leia, various characters in his life, etc.
Meanwhile, we shift focus to a young Imperial Academy recruit named Biggs Darklighter. We meet his family. Maybe he has a girl he leaves behind. He's got an envious buddy named Luke from back home who we briefly meet.
There's other characters we focus on like Admiral Ackbar and his crew. The mysterious hermit named Ben. We spend a lot of time seeing the big baddie of the series, Wilhuff Tarkin do all sorts of terrible things to make us hate him. They'd all be given the same storytelling weight. They'd all be "main characters".
In classic "Game of Thrones" style storytelling, we'd assume Biggs Darklighter was one of the heroes of the story. Him defecting to the Rebel Alliance would be a massive plot point as we watched him rise up the ranks. Meanwhile, we'd assume Bail Organa was the star of the show. His storyline would heat up when his daughter Leia is kidnapped. We'd spend a lot of time dealing with the political intrigue of Alderaan and the fallout of his daughter's kidnap.
Of course, this would all culminate in the very shocking moment in which the entire planet of Alderaan - Bail Organa included, gets completely blown up by a Death Star. Think of the Red Wedding, but magnify it by millions of voices crying out in terror. Imagine how people would freak out as not only is the main star of the show eviscerated, but everyone near and dear to him that we've grown to love are also blasted into star dust.
It would come as a great shock when the pretty boy star of the show Biggs Darklighter is killed in combat by the shadowy figure who is second in command to Tarkin (Vader).
As the show progressed, we'd learn more about the "magic" and mysticism underlying the political drama. We'd learn that there's more to this shadowy Vader character than we believed.
Meanwhile, we follow the young farmboy Luke as he begins his journey.
Other key characters would be introduced along the way.
Following the Game of Thrones model, Luke probably doesn't even find out that he's the son of Darth Vader until Season 8 Episode 1. By then, we'd have seen so much death and destruction that people would assume the show-runners were sadists that had no intention of having a happy ending.
To me, this story has always been about Jon Snow's arc in the same way the original Star Wars is about Luke Skywalker.
Everything in this story feels like it adds context to Jon Snow's story.
- The Starks: Gives context to Jon's moral upbringing and crucial half of his family story
- Kings Landing: Gives context to the throne that belongs to Jon
- The Wall: Gives context to Jon's growth as a leader
- Dany: Her entire arc serves the purpose of giving us context to Jon's Targaryen background while subsequently introducing dragons
I feel like "Game of Thrones" is subversive, but not in the way people think. It's not about defying basic storytelling principles when it comes to the large arc. It's about how much depth and importance is given to the peripheral. Standard storytelling, you tell a story about Alexander the Great completely focused on Alexander the Great from start to finish. In this style, you tell a story about 330s BC Macedon told through the real-time perspective of multiple main characters - and don't even realize this is a story about Alexander the Great until the home stretch.
Problem is that fans have spent several years hyper-analyzing every aspect of the books/show so they expect more grand surprises. It almost undermines how pivotal it was to find out that Jon is indeed the true King. We have 5 episodes left. If this thing doesn't land on the conclusion of his arc, it would be really bizarre storytelling that would feel random and "twisty" for the sake of being twisty.
Well done.
I binge watched GOT two years ago, and must say my thoughts are not nearly as informed. I know nothing about the books.
Conventionally, I think you are correct; that Jon is the ultimate protagonist of the story. Yet I am not so certain that Jon will both win out and survive in the end. Certainly that would be the most satisfying end in the conventional sense of story telling. The writers, however, do seem to relish doing the unexpected. And it is not at odds for the protagonist to die in the end and still get what he wants, sort of. Good example is Walter White in Breaking Bad, which had a very satisfying ending in the view of many including mine.
I am also somewhat cynical about the influence the "Me Too" movement (which occurred during the filming of the last season, I think) may have on how the writers decide to conclude the story. I would be very surprised if the ultimate ruler in GOT is not a woman. Jon is not the only character with an arc, although he clearly is the spine of the story, as you have pointed out. Several of the leading women, other than Cersei, have experienced significant growth or arc through the episodes, so it would not look completely out of left field were this to happen.
So somehow, I see Jon's quest being satisfied (defeat of the white walkers, night king, the Lannisters and restoration of order), but through sacrifice where he probably dies, and a powerful woman ends up in charge. I could see the Kingdom being split into two parts, with Sansa ruling one part, and Dani the other. Maybe also introduce the concept of a democratic republic where citizens can elect a representative body of government. This whole concept of family rule seems destined for extinction.
And I would be fine with that.
I think Sansa at least becomes Queen of the North and it may well happen before the end. The Northerners are already questioning Jon and they most likely would react negatively to finding out Jon is a Targaryen rather than a Stark.
Which themes are you referring to when you say this? I think most people misunderstand what George RR Martin was actually doing.
If you think the show/book is all about twists and shocking moments that defy expectations, youre misinterpreting what makes this creative endeavor unique.
Subverting the trope of good intentions and ideals winning out; the noble hero triumphing; good vs evil; etc etc.
Generally the story of GoT so far has favored shrewd schemers who are willing to sacrifice their ideals in favor of recognizing reality.
The last couple of seasons it's kind of gone away from that. But early on the show was notable for how people who believed that right was on their side, who in an ordinary fantasy story would find a way to prevail in the end, met an unexpected and undignified death. Whereas people willing to sacrifice their principles in favor of practicalities have managed to survive.
The dragon queen and the noble heir to the throne ending up on top at the end would seem much more in line with a traditional fantasy story, as opposed to a story that likes to subvert those kinds of expectations.
Indeed, Jon is now the classic fantasy protagonist. He thought he was an illegitimate by-blow but actually he's a prince! He came back from the dead! He's literally the resurrected savior.
I would be surprised if he ended up making it to the end. Seems more likely that he was brought back from the dead so that he could die again, later, in a more meaningful sacrifice.
I think that's a standard interpretation of Game of Thrones... and perhaps it's right, but I've never felt it was accurate.
To me, this series has always been about telling a conventional "heroes journey" fantasy story, but using a unique style of storytelling
from multiple perspectives that magnifies secondary characters and masks the conventional arc.
The best way I can explain this is to imagine telling the original Star Wars trilogy over the course of 8 Game of Thrones style seasons.
Both stories are essentially a "heroes journey" about an unknown adopted nobody (Luke and Jon Snow). The difference is that instead of purely focusing on Luke/Jon the entire time, Game of Thrones heightens the roles of everyone else.
So imagine if Season 1 of "Star Wars" opens with the Organa family on Alderaan. You assume Bail Organa, the patriarch of the family, is the main character of the series. Maybe the show casts some big-name actor to play him. We meet him, his wife, his daughter Leia, various characters in his life, etc.
Meanwhile, we shift focus to a young Imperial Academy recruit named Biggs Darklighter. We meet his family. Maybe he has a girl he leaves behind. He's got an envious buddy named Luke from back home who we briefly meet.
There's other characters we focus on like Admiral Ackbar and his crew. The mysterious hermit named Ben. We spend a lot of time seeing the big baddie of the series, Wilhuff Tarkin do all sorts of terrible things to make us hate him. They'd all be given the same storytelling weight. They'd all be "main characters".
In classic "Game of Thrones" style storytelling, we'd assume Biggs Darklighter was one of the heroes of the story. Him defecting to the Rebel Alliance would be a massive plot point as we watched him rise up the ranks. Meanwhile, we'd assume Bail Organa was the star of the show. His storyline would heat up when his daughter Leia is kidnapped. We'd spend a lot of time dealing with the political intrigue of Alderaan and the fallout of his daughter's kidnap.
Of course, this would all culminate in the very shocking moment in which the entire planet of Alderaan - Bail Organa included, gets completely blown up by a Death Star. Think of the Red Wedding, but magnify it by millions of voices crying out in terror. Imagine how people would freak out as not only is the main star of the show eviscerated, but everyone near and dear to him that we've grown to love are also blasted into star dust.
It would come as a great shock when the pretty boy star of the show Biggs Darklighter is killed in combat by the shadowy figure who is second in command to Tarkin (Vader).
As the show progressed, we'd learn more about the "magic" and mysticism underlying the political drama. We'd learn that there's more to this shadowy Vader character than we believed.
Meanwhile, we follow the young farmboy Luke as he begins his journey.
Other key characters would be introduced along the way.
Following the Game of Thrones model, Luke probably doesn't even find out that he's the son of Darth Vader until Season 8 Episode 1. By then, we'd have seen so much death and destruction that people would assume the show-runners were sadists that had no intention of having a happy ending.
To me, this story has always been about Jon Snow's arc in the same way the original Star Wars is about Luke Skywalker.
Everything in this story feels like it adds context to Jon Snow's story.
- The Starks: Gives context to Jon's moral upbringing and crucial half of his family story
- Kings Landing: Gives context to the throne that belongs to Jon
- The Wall: Gives context to Jon's growth as a leader
- Dany: Her entire arc serves the purpose of giving us context to Jon's Targaryen background while subsequently introducing dragons
I feel like "Game of Thrones" is subversive, but not in the way people think. It's not about defying basic storytelling principles when it comes to the large arc. It's about how much depth and importance is given to the peripheral. Standard storytelling, you tell a story about Alexander the Great completely focused on Alexander the Great from start to finish. In this style, you tell a story about 330s BC Macedon told through the real-time perspective of multiple main characters - and don't even realize this is a story about Alexander the Great until the home stretch.
Problem is that fans have spent several years hyper-analyzing every aspect of the books/show so they expect more grand surprises. It almost undermines how pivotal it was to find out that Jon is indeed the true King. We have 5 episodes left. If this thing doesn't land on the conclusion of his arc, it would be really bizarre storytelling that would feel random and "twisty" for the sake of being twisty.
Well done.
I binge watched GOT two years ago, and must say my thoughts are not nearly as informed. I know nothing about the books.
Conventionally, I think you are correct; that Jon is the ultimate protagonist of the story. Yet I am not so certain that Jon will both win out and survive in the end. Certainly that would be the most satisfying end in the conventional sense of story telling. The writers, however, do seem to relish doing the unexpected. And it is not at odds for the protagonist to die in the end and still get what he wants, sort of. Good example is Walter White in Breaking Bad, which had a very satisfying ending in the view of many including mine.
I am also somewhat cynical about the influence the "Me Too" movement (which occurred during the filming of the last season, I think) may have on how the writers decide to conclude the story. I would be very surprised if the ultimate ruler in GOT is not a woman. Jon is not the only character with an arc, although he clearly is the spine of the story, as you have pointed out. Several of the leading women, other than Cersei, have experienced significant growth or arc through the episodes, so it would not look completely out of left field were this to happen.
So somehow, I see Jon's quest being satisfied (defeat of the white walkers, night king, the Lannisters and restoration of order), but through sacrifice where he probably dies, and a powerful woman ends up in charge. I could see the Kingdom being split into two parts, with Sansa ruling one part, and Dani the other. Maybe also introduce the concept of a democratic republic where citizens can elect a representative body of government. This whole concept of family rule seems destined for extinction.
And I would be fine with that.
Yep. That is what makes this so obviously a story about him. It is certainly possible that in the great battle to save humanity he ends up doing it, but suffers a mortal wound and dies, but that really doesn't seem all that likelyI think Sansa at least becomes Queen of the North and it may well happen before the end. The Northerners are already questioning Jon and they most likely would react negatively to finding out Jon is a Targaryen rather than a Stark.
Which themes are you referring to when you say this? I think most people misunderstand what George RR Martin was actually doing.
If you think the show/book is all about twists and shocking moments that defy expectations, youre misinterpreting what makes this creative endeavor unique.
Subverting the trope of good intentions and ideals winning out; the noble hero triumphing; good vs evil; etc etc.
Generally the story of GoT so far has favored shrewd schemers who are willing to sacrifice their ideals in favor of recognizing reality.
The last couple of seasons it's kind of gone away from that. But early on the show was notable for how people who believed that right was on their side, who in an ordinary fantasy story would find a way to prevail in the end, met an unexpected and undignified death. Whereas people willing to sacrifice their principles in favor of practicalities have managed to survive.
The dragon queen and the noble heir to the throne ending up on top at the end would seem much more in line with a traditional fantasy story, as opposed to a story that likes to subvert those kinds of expectations.
Indeed, Jon is now the classic fantasy protagonist. He thought he was an illegitimate by-blow but actually he's a prince! He came back from the dead! He's literally the resurrected savior.
I would be surprised if he ended up making it to the end. Seems more likely that he was brought back from the dead so that he could die again, later, in a more meaningful sacrifice.
I think that's a standard interpretation of Game of Thrones... and perhaps it's right, but I've never felt it was accurate.
To me, this series has always been about telling a conventional "heroes journey" fantasy story, but using a unique style of storytelling
from multiple perspectives that magnifies secondary characters and masks the conventional arc.
The best way I can explain this is to imagine telling the original Star Wars trilogy over the course of 8 Game of Thrones style seasons.
Both stories are essentially a "heroes journey" about an unknown adopted nobody (Luke and Jon Snow). The difference is that instead of purely focusing on Luke/Jon the entire time, Game of Thrones heightens the roles of everyone else.
So imagine if Season 1 of "Star Wars" opens with the Organa family on Alderaan. You assume Bail Organa, the patriarch of the family, is the main character of the series. Maybe the show casts some big-name actor to play him. We meet him, his wife, his daughter Leia, various characters in his life, etc.
Meanwhile, we shift focus to a young Imperial Academy recruit named Biggs Darklighter. We meet his family. Maybe he has a girl he leaves behind. He's got an envious buddy named Luke from back home who we briefly meet.
There's other characters we focus on like Admiral Ackbar and his crew. The mysterious hermit named Ben. We spend a lot of time seeing the big baddie of the series, Wilhuff Tarkin do all sorts of terrible things to make us hate him. They'd all be given the same storytelling weight. They'd all be "main characters".
In classic "Game of Thrones" style storytelling, we'd assume Biggs Darklighter was one of the heroes of the story. Him defecting to the Rebel Alliance would be a massive plot point as we watched him rise up the ranks. Meanwhile, we'd assume Bail Organa was the star of the show. His storyline would heat up when his daughter Leia is kidnapped. We'd spend a lot of time dealing with the political intrigue of Alderaan and the fallout of his daughter's kidnap.
Of course, this would all culminate in the very shocking moment in which the entire planet of Alderaan - Bail Organa included, gets completely blown up by a Death Star. Think of the Red Wedding, but magnify it by millions of voices crying out in terror. Imagine how people would freak out as not only is the main star of the show eviscerated, but everyone near and dear to him that we've grown to love are also blasted into star dust.
It would come as a great shock when the pretty boy star of the show Biggs Darklighter is killed in combat by the shadowy figure who is second in command to Tarkin (Vader).
As the show progressed, we'd learn more about the "magic" and mysticism underlying the political drama. We'd learn that there's more to this shadowy Vader character than we believed.
Meanwhile, we follow the young farmboy Luke as he begins his journey.
Other key characters would be introduced along the way.
Following the Game of Thrones model, Luke probably doesn't even find out that he's the son of Darth Vader until Season 8 Episode 1. By then, we'd have seen so much death and destruction that people would assume the show-runners were sadists that had no intention of having a happy ending.
To me, this story has always been about Jon Snow's arc in the same way the original Star Wars is about Luke Skywalker.
Everything in this story feels like it adds context to Jon Snow's story.
- The Starks: Gives context to Jon's moral upbringing and crucial half of his family story
- Kings Landing: Gives context to the throne that belongs to Jon
- The Wall: Gives context to Jon's growth as a leader
- Dany: Her entire arc serves the purpose of giving us context to Jon's Targaryen background while subsequently introducing dragons
I feel like "Game of Thrones" is subversive, but not in the way people think. It's not about defying basic storytelling principles when it comes to the large arc. It's about how much depth and importance is given to the peripheral. Standard storytelling, you tell a story about Alexander the Great completely focused on Alexander the Great from start to finish. In this style, you tell a story about 330s BC Macedon told through the real-time perspective of multiple main characters - and don't even realize this is a story about Alexander the Great until the home stretch.
Problem is that fans have spent several years hyper-analyzing every aspect of the books/show so they expect more grand surprises. It almost undermines how pivotal it was to find out that Jon is indeed the true King. We have 5 episodes left. If this thing doesn't land on the conclusion of his arc, it would be really bizarre storytelling that would feel random and "twisty" for the sake of being twisty.
Well done.
I binge watched GOT two years ago, and must say my thoughts are not nearly as informed. I know nothing about the books.
Conventionally, I think you are correct; that Jon is the ultimate protagonist of the story. Yet I am not so certain that Jon will both win out and survive in the end. Certainly that would be the most satisfying end in the conventional sense of story telling. The writers, however, do seem to relish doing the unexpected. And it is not at odds for the protagonist to die in the end and still get what he wants, sort of. Good example is Walter White in Breaking Bad, which had a very satisfying ending in the view of many including mine.
I am also somewhat cynical about the influence the "Me Too" movement (which occurred during the filming of the last season, I think) may have on how the writers decide to conclude the story. I would be very surprised if the ultimate ruler in GOT is not a woman. Jon is not the only character with an arc, although he clearly is the spine of the story, as you have pointed out. Several of the leading women, other than Cersei, have experienced significant growth or arc through the episodes, so it would not look completely out of left field were this to happen.
So somehow, I see Jon's quest being satisfied (defeat of the white walkers, night king, the Lannisters and restoration of order), but through sacrifice where he probably dies, and a powerful woman ends up in charge. I could see the Kingdom being split into two parts, with Sansa ruling one part, and Dani the other. Maybe also introduce the concept of a democratic republic where citizens can elect a representative body of government. This whole concept of family rule seems destined for extinction.
And I would be fine with that.
Jon is still a Stark. His mom was a Stark.
Since when does the mother's line matter in the seven kingdoms?I think Sansa at least becomes Queen of the North and it may well happen before the end. The Northerners are already questioning Jon and they most likely would react negatively to finding out Jon is a Targaryen rather than a Stark.
Which themes are you referring to when you say this? I think most people misunderstand what George RR Martin was actually doing.
If you think the show/book is all about twists and shocking moments that defy expectations, youre misinterpreting what makes this creative endeavor unique.
Subverting the trope of good intentions and ideals winning out; the noble hero triumphing; good vs evil; etc etc.
Generally the story of GoT so far has favored shrewd schemers who are willing to sacrifice their ideals in favor of recognizing reality.
The last couple of seasons it's kind of gone away from that. But early on the show was notable for how people who believed that right was on their side, who in an ordinary fantasy story would find a way to prevail in the end, met an unexpected and undignified death. Whereas people willing to sacrifice their principles in favor of practicalities have managed to survive.
The dragon queen and the noble heir to the throne ending up on top at the end would seem much more in line with a traditional fantasy story, as opposed to a story that likes to subvert those kinds of expectations.
Indeed, Jon is now the classic fantasy protagonist. He thought he was an illegitimate by-blow but actually he's a prince! He came back from the dead! He's literally the resurrected savior.
I would be surprised if he ended up making it to the end. Seems more likely that he was brought back from the dead so that he could die again, later, in a more meaningful sacrifice.
I think that's a standard interpretation of Game of Thrones... and perhaps it's right, but I've never felt it was accurate.
To me, this series has always been about telling a conventional "heroes journey" fantasy story, but using a unique style of storytelling
from multiple perspectives that magnifies secondary characters and masks the conventional arc.
The best way I can explain this is to imagine telling the original Star Wars trilogy over the course of 8 Game of Thrones style seasons.
Both stories are essentially a "heroes journey" about an unknown adopted nobody (Luke and Jon Snow). The difference is that instead of purely focusing on Luke/Jon the entire time, Game of Thrones heightens the roles of everyone else.
So imagine if Season 1 of "Star Wars" opens with the Organa family on Alderaan. You assume Bail Organa, the patriarch of the family, is the main character of the series. Maybe the show casts some big-name actor to play him. We meet him, his wife, his daughter Leia, various characters in his life, etc.
Meanwhile, we shift focus to a young Imperial Academy recruit named Biggs Darklighter. We meet his family. Maybe he has a girl he leaves behind. He's got an envious buddy named Luke from back home who we briefly meet.
There's other characters we focus on like Admiral Ackbar and his crew. The mysterious hermit named Ben. We spend a lot of time seeing the big baddie of the series, Wilhuff Tarkin do all sorts of terrible things to make us hate him. They'd all be given the same storytelling weight. They'd all be "main characters".
In classic "Game of Thrones" style storytelling, we'd assume Biggs Darklighter was one of the heroes of the story. Him defecting to the Rebel Alliance would be a massive plot point as we watched him rise up the ranks. Meanwhile, we'd assume Bail Organa was the star of the show. His storyline would heat up when his daughter Leia is kidnapped. We'd spend a lot of time dealing with the political intrigue of Alderaan and the fallout of his daughter's kidnap.
Of course, this would all culminate in the very shocking moment in which the entire planet of Alderaan - Bail Organa included, gets completely blown up by a Death Star. Think of the Red Wedding, but magnify it by millions of voices crying out in terror. Imagine how people would freak out as not only is the main star of the show eviscerated, but everyone near and dear to him that we've grown to love are also blasted into star dust.
It would come as a great shock when the pretty boy star of the show Biggs Darklighter is killed in combat by the shadowy figure who is second in command to Tarkin (Vader).
As the show progressed, we'd learn more about the "magic" and mysticism underlying the political drama. We'd learn that there's more to this shadowy Vader character than we believed.
Meanwhile, we follow the young farmboy Luke as he begins his journey.
Other key characters would be introduced along the way.
Following the Game of Thrones model, Luke probably doesn't even find out that he's the son of Darth Vader until Season 8 Episode 1. By then, we'd have seen so much death and destruction that people would assume the show-runners were sadists that had no intention of having a happy ending.
To me, this story has always been about Jon Snow's arc in the same way the original Star Wars is about Luke Skywalker.
Everything in this story feels like it adds context to Jon Snow's story.
- The Starks: Gives context to Jon's moral upbringing and crucial half of his family story
- Kings Landing: Gives context to the throne that belongs to Jon
- The Wall: Gives context to Jon's growth as a leader
- Dany: Her entire arc serves the purpose of giving us context to Jon's Targaryen background while subsequently introducing dragons
I feel like "Game of Thrones" is subversive, but not in the way people think. It's not about defying basic storytelling principles when it comes to the large arc. It's about how much depth and importance is given to the peripheral. Standard storytelling, you tell a story about Alexander the Great completely focused on Alexander the Great from start to finish. In this style, you tell a story about 330s BC Macedon told through the real-time perspective of multiple main characters - and don't even realize this is a story about Alexander the Great until the home stretch.
Problem is that fans have spent several years hyper-analyzing every aspect of the books/show so they expect more grand surprises. It almost undermines how pivotal it was to find out that Jon is indeed the true King. We have 5 episodes left. If this thing doesn't land on the conclusion of his arc, it would be really bizarre storytelling that would feel random and "twisty" for the sake of being twisty.
Well done.
I binge watched GOT two years ago, and must say my thoughts are not nearly as informed. I know nothing about the books.
Conventionally, I think you are correct; that Jon is the ultimate protagonist of the story. Yet I am not so certain that Jon will both win out and survive in the end. Certainly that would be the most satisfying end in the conventional sense of story telling. The writers, however, do seem to relish doing the unexpected. And it is not at odds for the protagonist to die in the end and still get what he wants, sort of. Good example is Walter White in Breaking Bad, which had a very satisfying ending in the view of many including mine.
I am also somewhat cynical about the influence the "Me Too" movement (which occurred during the filming of the last season, I think) may have on how the writers decide to conclude the story. I would be very surprised if the ultimate ruler in GOT is not a woman. Jon is not the only character with an arc, although he clearly is the spine of the story, as you have pointed out. Several of the leading women, other than Cersei, have experienced significant growth or arc through the episodes, so it would not look completely out of left field were this to happen.
So somehow, I see Jon's quest being satisfied (defeat of the white walkers, night king, the Lannisters and restoration of order), but through sacrifice where he probably dies, and a powerful woman ends up in charge. I could see the Kingdom being split into two parts, with Sansa ruling one part, and Dani the other. Maybe also introduce the concept of a democratic republic where citizens can elect a representative body of government. This whole concept of family rule seems destined for extinction.
And I would be fine with that.
Jon is still a Stark. His mom was a Stark.
In Robert Baratheon's case it mattered. Its how he became King and not Ned. Neither guy wanted to actually be King but the Robert's family history dictated he be the next King.Since when does the mother's line matter in the seven kingdoms?I think Sansa at least becomes Queen of the North and it may well happen before the end. The Northerners are already questioning Jon and they most likely would react negatively to finding out Jon is a Targaryen rather than a Stark.
Which themes are you referring to when you say this? I think most people misunderstand what George RR Martin was actually doing.
If you think the show/book is all about twists and shocking moments that defy expectations, youre misinterpreting what makes this creative endeavor unique.
Subverting the trope of good intentions and ideals winning out; the noble hero triumphing; good vs evil; etc etc.
Generally the story of GoT so far has favored shrewd schemers who are willing to sacrifice their ideals in favor of recognizing reality.
The last couple of seasons it's kind of gone away from that. But early on the show was notable for how people who believed that right was on their side, who in an ordinary fantasy story would find a way to prevail in the end, met an unexpected and undignified death. Whereas people willing to sacrifice their principles in favor of practicalities have managed to survive.
The dragon queen and the noble heir to the throne ending up on top at the end would seem much more in line with a traditional fantasy story, as opposed to a story that likes to subvert those kinds of expectations.
Indeed, Jon is now the classic fantasy protagonist. He thought he was an illegitimate by-blow but actually he's a prince! He came back from the dead! He's literally the resurrected savior.
I would be surprised if he ended up making it to the end. Seems more likely that he was brought back from the dead so that he could die again, later, in a more meaningful sacrifice.
I think that's a standard interpretation of Game of Thrones... and perhaps it's right, but I've never felt it was accurate.
To me, this series has always been about telling a conventional "heroes journey" fantasy story, but using a unique style of storytelling
from multiple perspectives that magnifies secondary characters and masks the conventional arc.
The best way I can explain this is to imagine telling the original Star Wars trilogy over the course of 8 Game of Thrones style seasons.
Both stories are essentially a "heroes journey" about an unknown adopted nobody (Luke and Jon Snow). The difference is that instead of purely focusing on Luke/Jon the entire time, Game of Thrones heightens the roles of everyone else.
So imagine if Season 1 of "Star Wars" opens with the Organa family on Alderaan. You assume Bail Organa, the patriarch of the family, is the main character of the series. Maybe the show casts some big-name actor to play him. We meet him, his wife, his daughter Leia, various characters in his life, etc.
Meanwhile, we shift focus to a young Imperial Academy recruit named Biggs Darklighter. We meet his family. Maybe he has a girl he leaves behind. He's got an envious buddy named Luke from back home who we briefly meet.
There's other characters we focus on like Admiral Ackbar and his crew. The mysterious hermit named Ben. We spend a lot of time seeing the big baddie of the series, Wilhuff Tarkin do all sorts of terrible things to make us hate him. They'd all be given the same storytelling weight. They'd all be "main characters".
In classic "Game of Thrones" style storytelling, we'd assume Biggs Darklighter was one of the heroes of the story. Him defecting to the Rebel Alliance would be a massive plot point as we watched him rise up the ranks. Meanwhile, we'd assume Bail Organa was the star of the show. His storyline would heat up when his daughter Leia is kidnapped. We'd spend a lot of time dealing with the political intrigue of Alderaan and the fallout of his daughter's kidnap.
Of course, this would all culminate in the very shocking moment in which the entire planet of Alderaan - Bail Organa included, gets completely blown up by a Death Star. Think of the Red Wedding, but magnify it by millions of voices crying out in terror. Imagine how people would freak out as not only is the main star of the show eviscerated, but everyone near and dear to him that we've grown to love are also blasted into star dust.
It would come as a great shock when the pretty boy star of the show Biggs Darklighter is killed in combat by the shadowy figure who is second in command to Tarkin (Vader).
As the show progressed, we'd learn more about the "magic" and mysticism underlying the political drama. We'd learn that there's more to this shadowy Vader character than we believed.
Meanwhile, we follow the young farmboy Luke as he begins his journey.
Other key characters would be introduced along the way.
Following the Game of Thrones model, Luke probably doesn't even find out that he's the son of Darth Vader until Season 8 Episode 1. By then, we'd have seen so much death and destruction that people would assume the show-runners were sadists that had no intention of having a happy ending.
To me, this story has always been about Jon Snow's arc in the same way the original Star Wars is about Luke Skywalker.
Everything in this story feels like it adds context to Jon Snow's story.
- The Starks: Gives context to Jon's moral upbringing and crucial half of his family story
- Kings Landing: Gives context to the throne that belongs to Jon
- The Wall: Gives context to Jon's growth as a leader
- Dany: Her entire arc serves the purpose of giving us context to Jon's Targaryen background while subsequently introducing dragons
I feel like "Game of Thrones" is subversive, but not in the way people think. It's not about defying basic storytelling principles when it comes to the large arc. It's about how much depth and importance is given to the peripheral. Standard storytelling, you tell a story about Alexander the Great completely focused on Alexander the Great from start to finish. In this style, you tell a story about 330s BC Macedon told through the real-time perspective of multiple main characters - and don't even realize this is a story about Alexander the Great until the home stretch.
Problem is that fans have spent several years hyper-analyzing every aspect of the books/show so they expect more grand surprises. It almost undermines how pivotal it was to find out that Jon is indeed the true King. We have 5 episodes left. If this thing doesn't land on the conclusion of his arc, it would be really bizarre storytelling that would feel random and "twisty" for the sake of being twisty.
Well done.
I binge watched GOT two years ago, and must say my thoughts are not nearly as informed. I know nothing about the books.
Conventionally, I think you are correct; that Jon is the ultimate protagonist of the story. Yet I am not so certain that Jon will both win out and survive in the end. Certainly that would be the most satisfying end in the conventional sense of story telling. The writers, however, do seem to relish doing the unexpected. And it is not at odds for the protagonist to die in the end and still get what he wants, sort of. Good example is Walter White in Breaking Bad, which had a very satisfying ending in the view of many including mine.
I am also somewhat cynical about the influence the "Me Too" movement (which occurred during the filming of the last season, I think) may have on how the writers decide to conclude the story. I would be very surprised if the ultimate ruler in GOT is not a woman. Jon is not the only character with an arc, although he clearly is the spine of the story, as you have pointed out. Several of the leading women, other than Cersei, have experienced significant growth or arc through the episodes, so it would not look completely out of left field were this to happen.
So somehow, I see Jon's quest being satisfied (defeat of the white walkers, night king, the Lannisters and restoration of order), but through sacrifice where he probably dies, and a powerful woman ends up in charge. I could see the Kingdom being split into two parts, with Sansa ruling one part, and Dani the other. Maybe also introduce the concept of a democratic republic where citizens can elect a representative body of government. This whole concept of family rule seems destined for extinction.
And I would be fine with that.
Jon is still a Stark. His mom was a Stark.
so a mother doesn't matter but you think a woman should be ruled. That is quite strangeSince when does the mother's line matter in the seven kingdoms?I think Sansa at least becomes Queen of the North and it may well happen before the end. The Northerners are already questioning Jon and they most likely would react negatively to finding out Jon is a Targaryen rather than a Stark.
Which themes are you referring to when you say this? I think most people misunderstand what George RR Martin was actually doing.
If you think the show/book is all about twists and shocking moments that defy expectations, youre misinterpreting what makes this creative endeavor unique.
Subverting the trope of good intentions and ideals winning out; the noble hero triumphing; good vs evil; etc etc.
Generally the story of GoT so far has favored shrewd schemers who are willing to sacrifice their ideals in favor of recognizing reality.
The last couple of seasons it's kind of gone away from that. But early on the show was notable for how people who believed that right was on their side, who in an ordinary fantasy story would find a way to prevail in the end, met an unexpected and undignified death. Whereas people willing to sacrifice their principles in favor of practicalities have managed to survive.
The dragon queen and the noble heir to the throne ending up on top at the end would seem much more in line with a traditional fantasy story, as opposed to a story that likes to subvert those kinds of expectations.
Indeed, Jon is now the classic fantasy protagonist. He thought he was an illegitimate by-blow but actually he's a prince! He came back from the dead! He's literally the resurrected savior.
I would be surprised if he ended up making it to the end. Seems more likely that he was brought back from the dead so that he could die again, later, in a more meaningful sacrifice.
I think that's a standard interpretation of Game of Thrones... and perhaps it's right, but I've never felt it was accurate.
To me, this series has always been about telling a conventional "heroes journey" fantasy story, but using a unique style of storytelling
from multiple perspectives that magnifies secondary characters and masks the conventional arc.
The best way I can explain this is to imagine telling the original Star Wars trilogy over the course of 8 Game of Thrones style seasons.
Both stories are essentially a "heroes journey" about an unknown adopted nobody (Luke and Jon Snow). The difference is that instead of purely focusing on Luke/Jon the entire time, Game of Thrones heightens the roles of everyone else.
So imagine if Season 1 of "Star Wars" opens with the Organa family on Alderaan. You assume Bail Organa, the patriarch of the family, is the main character of the series. Maybe the show casts some big-name actor to play him. We meet him, his wife, his daughter Leia, various characters in his life, etc.
Meanwhile, we shift focus to a young Imperial Academy recruit named Biggs Darklighter. We meet his family. Maybe he has a girl he leaves behind. He's got an envious buddy named Luke from back home who we briefly meet.
There's other characters we focus on like Admiral Ackbar and his crew. The mysterious hermit named Ben. We spend a lot of time seeing the big baddie of the series, Wilhuff Tarkin do all sorts of terrible things to make us hate him. They'd all be given the same storytelling weight. They'd all be "main characters".
In classic "Game of Thrones" style storytelling, we'd assume Biggs Darklighter was one of the heroes of the story. Him defecting to the Rebel Alliance would be a massive plot point as we watched him rise up the ranks. Meanwhile, we'd assume Bail Organa was the star of the show. His storyline would heat up when his daughter Leia is kidnapped. We'd spend a lot of time dealing with the political intrigue of Alderaan and the fallout of his daughter's kidnap.
Of course, this would all culminate in the very shocking moment in which the entire planet of Alderaan - Bail Organa included, gets completely blown up by a Death Star. Think of the Red Wedding, but magnify it by millions of voices crying out in terror. Imagine how people would freak out as not only is the main star of the show eviscerated, but everyone near and dear to him that we've grown to love are also blasted into star dust.
It would come as a great shock when the pretty boy star of the show Biggs Darklighter is killed in combat by the shadowy figure who is second in command to Tarkin (Vader).
As the show progressed, we'd learn more about the "magic" and mysticism underlying the political drama. We'd learn that there's more to this shadowy Vader character than we believed.
Meanwhile, we follow the young farmboy Luke as he begins his journey.
Other key characters would be introduced along the way.
Following the Game of Thrones model, Luke probably doesn't even find out that he's the son of Darth Vader until Season 8 Episode 1. By then, we'd have seen so much death and destruction that people would assume the show-runners were sadists that had no intention of having a happy ending.
To me, this story has always been about Jon Snow's arc in the same way the original Star Wars is about Luke Skywalker.
Everything in this story feels like it adds context to Jon Snow's story.
- The Starks: Gives context to Jon's moral upbringing and crucial half of his family story
- Kings Landing: Gives context to the throne that belongs to Jon
- The Wall: Gives context to Jon's growth as a leader
- Dany: Her entire arc serves the purpose of giving us context to Jon's Targaryen background while subsequently introducing dragons
I feel like "Game of Thrones" is subversive, but not in the way people think. It's not about defying basic storytelling principles when it comes to the large arc. It's about how much depth and importance is given to the peripheral. Standard storytelling, you tell a story about Alexander the Great completely focused on Alexander the Great from start to finish. In this style, you tell a story about 330s BC Macedon told through the real-time perspective of multiple main characters - and don't even realize this is a story about Alexander the Great until the home stretch.
Problem is that fans have spent several years hyper-analyzing every aspect of the books/show so they expect more grand surprises. It almost undermines how pivotal it was to find out that Jon is indeed the true King. We have 5 episodes left. If this thing doesn't land on the conclusion of his arc, it would be really bizarre storytelling that would feel random and "twisty" for the sake of being twisty.
Well done.
I binge watched GOT two years ago, and must say my thoughts are not nearly as informed. I know nothing about the books.
Conventionally, I think you are correct; that Jon is the ultimate protagonist of the story. Yet I am not so certain that Jon will both win out and survive in the end. Certainly that would be the most satisfying end in the conventional sense of story telling. The writers, however, do seem to relish doing the unexpected. And it is not at odds for the protagonist to die in the end and still get what he wants, sort of. Good example is Walter White in Breaking Bad, which had a very satisfying ending in the view of many including mine.
I am also somewhat cynical about the influence the "Me Too" movement (which occurred during the filming of the last season, I think) may have on how the writers decide to conclude the story. I would be very surprised if the ultimate ruler in GOT is not a woman. Jon is not the only character with an arc, although he clearly is the spine of the story, as you have pointed out. Several of the leading women, other than Cersei, have experienced significant growth or arc through the episodes, so it would not look completely out of left field were this to happen.
So somehow, I see Jon's quest being satisfied (defeat of the white walkers, night king, the Lannisters and restoration of order), but through sacrifice where he probably dies, and a powerful woman ends up in charge. I could see the Kingdom being split into two parts, with Sansa ruling one part, and Dani the other. Maybe also introduce the concept of a democratic republic where citizens can elect a representative body of government. This whole concept of family rule seems destined for extinction.
And I would be fine with that.
Jon is still a Stark. His mom was a Stark.
In Robert Baratheon's case it mattered. Its how he became King and not Ned. Neither guy wanted to actually be King but the Robert's family history dictated he be the next King.
Bran is going to go back in time, stop the execution of Ned Stark, and put him on the Iron Throne.
Best ending ever.
The best ending ever would be the Night King getting held off at Winterfell, playing his trump card by raising all the dead Starks in the vaults, they open the gate to let him in and say, "the North kneels to no one" and cut him to shreds while heavy metal music plays. Ghost helps.
maybe, or it could have just been symbolism that Jon was a Stark just not from the one he thought.Bran is going to go back in time, stop the execution of Ned Stark, and put him on the Iron Throne.
Best ending ever.
The best ending ever would be the Night King getting held off at Winterfell, playing his trump card by raising all the dead Starks in the vaults, they open the gate to let him in and say, "the North kneels to no one" and cut him to shreds while heavy metal music plays. Ghost helps.
Rising the dead Starks is almost certainly going to happen. They don't focus on the crypts in the opener for no reason.
We gonna have Zombie Eddard fighting Jon Snow?
Rising the dead Starks is almost certainly going to happen. They don't focus on the crypts in the opener for no reason.
At Castle Black, Jon Snow tells Samwell Tarly that he sometimes dreams of the crypts. He is afraid of what he will find within them and awakens when they become too dark.[13]
While in King's Landing, Ned dreams of the crypts beneath Winterfell, envisioning the Kings of Winter watching him with eyes of ice and the stone direwolves snarling at him. Lyanna's statue whispers to him, "Promise me, Ned."[2]
Jon Snow dreams he is walking past the stone kings, who tell him there is no place for him in the crypt
Bran is going to go back in time, stop the execution of Ned Stark, and put him on the Iron Throne.
Best ending ever.
The best ending ever would be the Night King getting held off at Winterfell, playing his trump card by raising all the dead Starks in the vaults, they open the gate to let him in and say, "the North kneels to no one" and cut him to shreds while heavy metal music plays. Ghost helps.
Rising the dead Starks is almost certainly going to happen. They don't focus on the crypts in the opener for no reason.
We gonna have Zombie Eddard fighting Jon Snow?
I'm saying the GOT world in general and the Seven Kingdoms particularly are very misogynistic and the Northerners are especially difficult and distruEdited. Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.l. Lady Mormont who's been one of Jon's biggest supporters went after him hard because he gave up the King of the North to support Dany. When the word gets out, people are going to start looking at Jon as a Targaryen rather than a Stark. The conspiracy theories would start to take off and there would start to be talk of needing a true Stark to be the King/Queen of the North. There would not be a stampede to support the "true king".so a mother doesn't matter but you think a woman should be ruled. That is quite strangeSince when does the mother's line matter in the seven kingdoms?I think Sansa at least becomes Queen of the North and it may well happen before the end. The Northerners are already questioning Jon and they most likely would react negatively to finding out Jon is a Targaryen rather than a Stark.
Which themes are you referring to when you say this? I think most people misunderstand what George RR Martin was actually doing.
If you think the show/book is all about twists and shocking moments that defy expectations, youre misinterpreting what makes this creative endeavor unique.
Subverting the trope of good intentions and ideals winning out; the noble hero triumphing; good vs evil; etc etc.
Generally the story of GoT so far has favored shrewd schemers who are willing to sacrifice their ideals in favor of recognizing reality.
The last couple of seasons it's kind of gone away from that. But early on the show was notable for how people who believed that right was on their side, who in an ordinary fantasy story would find a way to prevail in the end, met an unexpected and undignified death. Whereas people willing to sacrifice their principles in favor of practicalities have managed to survive.
The dragon queen and the noble heir to the throne ending up on top at the end would seem much more in line with a traditional fantasy story, as opposed to a story that likes to subvert those kinds of expectations.
Indeed, Jon is now the classic fantasy protagonist. He thought he was an illegitimate by-blow but actually he's a prince! He came back from the dead! He's literally the resurrected savior.
I would be surprised if he ended up making it to the end. Seems more likely that he was brought back from the dead so that he could die again, later, in a more meaningful sacrifice.
I think that's a standard interpretation of Game of Thrones... and perhaps it's right, but I've never felt it was accurate.
To me, this series has always been about telling a conventional "heroes journey" fantasy story, but using a unique style of storytelling
from multiple perspectives that magnifies secondary characters and masks the conventional arc.
The best way I can explain this is to imagine telling the original Star Wars trilogy over the course of 8 Game of Thrones style seasons.
Both stories are essentially a "heroes journey" about an unknown adopted nobody (Luke and Jon Snow). The difference is that instead of purely focusing on Luke/Jon the entire time, Game of Thrones heightens the roles of everyone else.
So imagine if Season 1 of "Star Wars" opens with the Organa family on Alderaan. You assume Bail Organa, the patriarch of the family, is the main character of the series. Maybe the show casts some big-name actor to play him. We meet him, his wife, his daughter Leia, various characters in his life, etc.
Meanwhile, we shift focus to a young Imperial Academy recruit named Biggs Darklighter. We meet his family. Maybe he has a girl he leaves behind. He's got an envious buddy named Luke from back home who we briefly meet.
There's other characters we focus on like Admiral Ackbar and his crew. The mysterious hermit named Ben. We spend a lot of time seeing the big baddie of the series, Wilhuff Tarkin do all sorts of terrible things to make us hate him. They'd all be given the same storytelling weight. They'd all be "main characters".
In classic "Game of Thrones" style storytelling, we'd assume Biggs Darklighter was one of the heroes of the story. Him defecting to the Rebel Alliance would be a massive plot point as we watched him rise up the ranks. Meanwhile, we'd assume Bail Organa was the star of the show. His storyline would heat up when his daughter Leia is kidnapped. We'd spend a lot of time dealing with the political intrigue of Alderaan and the fallout of his daughter's kidnap.
Of course, this would all culminate in the very shocking moment in which the entire planet of Alderaan - Bail Organa included, gets completely blown up by a Death Star. Think of the Red Wedding, but magnify it by millions of voices crying out in terror. Imagine how people would freak out as not only is the main star of the show eviscerated, but everyone near and dear to him that we've grown to love are also blasted into star dust.
It would come as a great shock when the pretty boy star of the show Biggs Darklighter is killed in combat by the shadowy figure who is second in command to Tarkin (Vader).
As the show progressed, we'd learn more about the "magic" and mysticism underlying the political drama. We'd learn that there's more to this shadowy Vader character than we believed.
Meanwhile, we follow the young farmboy Luke as he begins his journey.
Other key characters would be introduced along the way.
Following the Game of Thrones model, Luke probably doesn't even find out that he's the son of Darth Vader until Season 8 Episode 1. By then, we'd have seen so much death and destruction that people would assume the show-runners were sadists that had no intention of having a happy ending.
To me, this story has always been about Jon Snow's arc in the same way the original Star Wars is about Luke Skywalker.
Everything in this story feels like it adds context to Jon Snow's story.
- The Starks: Gives context to Jon's moral upbringing and crucial half of his family story
- Kings Landing: Gives context to the throne that belongs to Jon
- The Wall: Gives context to Jon's growth as a leader
- Dany: Her entire arc serves the purpose of giving us context to Jon's Targaryen background while subsequently introducing dragons
I feel like "Game of Thrones" is subversive, but not in the way people think. It's not about defying basic storytelling principles when it comes to the large arc. It's about how much depth and importance is given to the peripheral. Standard storytelling, you tell a story about Alexander the Great completely focused on Alexander the Great from start to finish. In this style, you tell a story about 330s BC Macedon told through the real-time perspective of multiple main characters - and don't even realize this is a story about Alexander the Great until the home stretch.
Problem is that fans have spent several years hyper-analyzing every aspect of the books/show so they expect more grand surprises. It almost undermines how pivotal it was to find out that Jon is indeed the true King. We have 5 episodes left. If this thing doesn't land on the conclusion of his arc, it would be really bizarre storytelling that would feel random and "twisty" for the sake of being twisty.
Well done.
I binge watched GOT two years ago, and must say my thoughts are not nearly as informed. I know nothing about the books.
Conventionally, I think you are correct; that Jon is the ultimate protagonist of the story. Yet I am not so certain that Jon will both win out and survive in the end. Certainly that would be the most satisfying end in the conventional sense of story telling. The writers, however, do seem to relish doing the unexpected. And it is not at odds for the protagonist to die in the end and still get what he wants, sort of. Good example is Walter White in Breaking Bad, which had a very satisfying ending in the view of many including mine.
I am also somewhat cynical about the influence the "Me Too" movement (which occurred during the filming of the last season, I think) may have on how the writers decide to conclude the story. I would be very surprised if the ultimate ruler in GOT is not a woman. Jon is not the only character with an arc, although he clearly is the spine of the story, as you have pointed out. Several of the leading women, other than Cersei, have experienced significant growth or arc through the episodes, so it would not look completely out of left field were this to happen.
So somehow, I see Jon's quest being satisfied (defeat of the white walkers, night king, the Lannisters and restoration of order), but through sacrifice where he probably dies, and a powerful woman ends up in charge. I could see the Kingdom being split into two parts, with Sansa ruling one part, and Dani the other. Maybe also introduce the concept of a democratic republic where citizens can elect a representative body of government. This whole concept of family rule seems destined for extinction.
And I would be fine with that.
Jon is still a Stark. His mom was a Stark.
Bran is going to go back in time, stop the execution of Ned Stark, and put him on the Iron Throne.
Best ending ever.
Bran is going to go back in time, stop the execution of Ned Stark, and put him on the Iron Throne.
Best ending ever.
The best ending ever would be the Night King getting held off at Winterfell, playing his trump card by raising all the dead Starks in the vaults, they open the gate to let him in and say, "the North kneels to no one" and cut him to shreds while heavy metal music plays. Ghost helps.
Rising the dead Starks is almost certainly going to happen. They don't focus on the crypts in the opener for no reason.
We gonna have Zombie Eddard fighting Jon Snow?
It's a thing I'm on the fence about. Just fulfilling Ned's "next time we meet I'll tell you about your mother" from S1, and all the hints of a dragon (Targaryen) in the crypts (think most of that was book-only) might be enough reason.
But having a bunch of famous corpses down there is a Chekov's gun for sure. Don't know if there's any kind of coffin they're in but the books went to some length to mention the hot springs that keep the ground warm.
Bran is going to go back in time, stop the execution of Ned Stark, and put him on the Iron Throne.
Best ending ever.
The best ending ever would be the Night King getting held off at Winterfell, playing his trump card by raising all the dead Starks in the vaults, they open the gate to let him in and say, "the North kneels to no one" and cut him to shreds while heavy metal music plays. Ghost helps.
Rising the dead Starks is almost certainly going to happen. They don't focus on the crypts in the opener for no reason.
We gonna have Zombie Eddard fighting Jon Snow?
It's a thing I'm on the fence about. Just fulfilling Ned's "next time we meet I'll tell you about your mother" from S1, and all the hints of a dragon (Targaryen) in the crypts (think most of that was book-only) might be enough reason.
But having a bunch of famous corpses down there is a Chekov's gun for sure. Don't know if there's any kind of coffin they're in but the books went to some length to mention the hot springs that keep the ground warm.
Yeah, I didnt count, but they must have said that the crypts were the safest place in Winterfell at least five times. Which means they almost certainly are not.
Dany sending Tyrion to the crypts guaranteed it.Bran is going to go back in time, stop the execution of Ned Stark, and put him on the Iron Throne.
Best ending ever.
The best ending ever would be the Night King getting held off at Winterfell, playing his trump card by raising all the dead Starks in the vaults, they open the gate to let him in and say, "the North kneels to no one" and cut him to shreds while heavy metal music plays. Ghost helps.
Rising the dead Starks is almost certainly going to happen. They don't focus on the crypts in the opener for no reason.
We gonna have Zombie Eddard fighting Jon Snow?
It's a thing I'm on the fence about. Just fulfilling Ned's "next time we meet I'll tell you about your mother" from S1, and all the hints of a dragon (Targaryen) in the crypts (think most of that was book-only) might be enough reason.
But having a bunch of famous corpses down there is a Chekov's gun for sure. Don't know if there's any kind of coffin they're in but the books went to some length to mention the hot springs that keep the ground warm.
Yeah, I didnt count, but they must have said that the crypts were the safest place in Winterfell at least five times. Which means they almost certainly are not.
Oh yeah they hammered it home so much it's very very obvious they aren't gonna be very safe at all.
The only doubt I have now is whether it'll be famous corpses or the off chance it's tunneling wights or some other curveball. But the crypts are not gonna be a good place to be. Poor Sam right in the thick of it with the Walkers again.
IMO Arya and Gendry will take the throne.Tyrion is not wise. Cersei played him like a fiddle. The Masters played him. A wise man knows when to keep his mouth shut but Tyrion likes to hear the sound of his voice too much.
Jon Snow is idealistic and will have to die (again) to achieve his goals. He is a classic Christ-like figure and does not belong in the world that he will save.
Dany will make some sort of mistake which will be her undoing. She might possibly prove to be unstable like her father. Or her distrust of others will cost her. She represents magic and dragons, and I think she too will not inherit the world she is creating.
Cersei won't win because she is pure evil.
Sansa has a chance. Tyrion has an outside shot. He is the wisest and most stable of all the characters.
But Arya and Gendry I think make the most sense from a writing standpoint. George Martin clearly loves the character, and so does everyone else. She is cunning and violent enough to survive the coming war and yet she has enough of a moral compass that she would make for a fine leader.
And now she might be carrying the former King's grandson.
Dendry has a royal pedigree and as good a claim as anyone to the throne - especially with the backing of an empowered Arya Stark. He also makes a fine counterbalance to Arya's personality. I think the other Starks will die and she will inherit the North. She then uses Dendry's heritage to claim the throne. Their marriage and baby unites the South and North, and everyone lives happily ever after.
So a couple days ago I went back and watched the old episode where Dany has a bunch of Mysterious Visions (last ep of Season 2). The visions start with Dany in the Iron Throne room and it's destroyed and snowing. She turns away from the iron throne, then suddenly is crossing North of the Wall. She walks a short way then enters a Dothraki tent to see Drogo and her never-born son. Originally it read as the visions being temptations she had to reject to be with her dragons, but now I think it's a foreshadowing of her death.She already had a chance to take the Iron Throne and already spurred it to go north.
Based on her reaction to Jon's identity and her history I think she's gonna to a semi-heel turn, probably screw up something important by fighting with Jon. She'll have a chance to claim the Iron Throne but will spurn it to go far north, like to pursue the Night King or eliminate where ever he came from. Either way it'll be a suicide mission for her and Drogon (they already made a point that the dragons suffer in the cold). Just a thought about where she might be headed.
IMO Arya and Gendry will take the throne.Tyrion is not wise. Cersei played him like a fiddle. The Masters played him. A wise man knows when to keep his mouth shut but Tyrion likes to hear the sound of his voice too much.
Jon Snow is idealistic and will have to die (again) to achieve his goals. He is a classic Christ-like figure and does not belong in the world that he will save.
Dany will make some sort of mistake which will be her undoing. She might possibly prove to be unstable like her father. Or her distrust of others will cost her. She represents magic and dragons, and I think she too will not inherit the world she is creating.
Cersei won't win because she is pure evil.
Sansa has a chance. Tyrion has an outside shot. He is the wisest and most stable of all the characters.
But Arya and Gendry I think make the most sense from a writing standpoint. George Martin clearly loves the character, and so does everyone else. She is cunning and violent enough to survive the coming war and yet she has enough of a moral compass that she would make for a fine leader.
And now she might be carrying the former King's grandson.
Dendry has a royal pedigree and as good a claim as anyone to the throne - especially with the backing of an empowered Arya Stark. He also makes a fine counterbalance to Arya's personality. I think the other Starks will die and she will inherit the North. She then uses Dendry's heritage to claim the throne. Their marriage and baby unites the South and North, and everyone lives happily ever after.
Dendry and Arya would make terrible rulers. They've showed no leadership ability or desire to lead.
I don't know that he really believed in Cersei so much as he believed in Jamie. If Jamie wasn't so gung ho, I don't think Tyrion would have believed Cersei.IMO Arya and Gendry will take the throne.Tyrion is not wise. Cersei played him like a fiddle. The Masters played him. A wise man knows when to keep his mouth shut but Tyrion likes to hear the sound of his voice too much.
Jon Snow is idealistic and will have to die (again) to achieve his goals. He is a classic Christ-like figure and does not belong in the world that he will save.
Dany will make some sort of mistake which will be her undoing. She might possibly prove to be unstable like her father. Or her distrust of others will cost her. She represents magic and dragons, and I think she too will not inherit the world she is creating.
Cersei won't win because she is pure evil.
Sansa has a chance. Tyrion has an outside shot. He is the wisest and most stable of all the characters.
But Arya and Gendry I think make the most sense from a writing standpoint. George Martin clearly loves the character, and so does everyone else. She is cunning and violent enough to survive the coming war and yet she has enough of a moral compass that she would make for a fine leader.
And now she might be carrying the former King's grandson.
Dendry has a royal pedigree and as good a claim as anyone to the throne - especially with the backing of an empowered Arya Stark. He also makes a fine counterbalance to Arya's personality. I think the other Starks will die and she will inherit the North. She then uses Dendry's heritage to claim the throne. Their marriage and baby unites the South and North, and everyone lives happily ever after.
Dendry and Arya would make terrible rulers. They've showed no leadership ability or desire to lead.
Tyrion has regressed badly the past few seasons; bunch of bad decisions, some cynical and perhaps weak (slavers), some too soft-hearted (believing Cersei could sacrifice for the common good).
That said, remember Jorah's speech, about everyone making mistakes? I wonder if he's due for some redemption.
So a couple days ago I went back and watched the old episode where Dany has a bunch of Mysterious Visions (last ep of Season 2). The visions start with Dany in the Iron Throne room and it's destroyed and snowing. She turns away from the iron throne, then suddenly is crossing North of the Wall. She walks a short way then enters a Dothraki tent to see Drogo and her never-born son. Originally it read as the visions being temptations she had to reject to be with her dragons, but now I think it's a foreshadowing of her death.She already had a chance to take the Iron Throne and already spurred it to go north.
Based on her reaction to Jon's identity and her history I think she's gonna to a semi-heel turn, probably screw up something important by fighting with Jon. She'll have a chance to claim the Iron Throne but will spurn it to go far north, like to pursue the Night King or eliminate where ever he came from. Either way it'll be a suicide mission for her and Drogon (they already made a point that the dragons suffer in the cold). Just a thought about where she might be headed.
I believe all of the Stark's make it out of the battle alive. The only caveat would be if either Bran or Jon has to die to kill the Night King. I also believe Jamie will be the one to kill Cersei, so I think he makes it out alive. No one else is guaranteed, though I'd be fairly surprised if Sam, Gendry, Clegane, and Davos don't make it through. And obviously others will survive, just not as clear.
Sandor survives because he hasn't faced his brother yet.
There will be some discovery in the crypts, too late to affect the battle but that will prove vital for the final battle against the undead in episode 5.
Sandor survives because he hasn't faced his brother yet.
But not Jaime? They've both got more or less the same arc closure. I suspect Brienne will die saving him.
There will be some discovery in the crypts, too late to affect the battle but that will prove vital for the final battle against the undead in episode 5.
Finding an ultimate NK killing weapon seems a little too cliche for the show. Wonder if some Stark+crypt magic means someone comes back like Benjen. The fan choice is of course Ned but it'd most likely be Lyanna or else like Bran the Builder with special knowledge about the Night King.
Sandor survives because he hasn't faced his brother yet.
But not Jaime? They've both got more or less the same arc closure. I suspect Brienne will die saving him.
See, I think Jaime has completed his arc. He left Cersei behind and faced the people he'd wronged. He knighted Brienne. He's made amends.
I think he's ready to die (from a character perspective, not saying he feels ready to die necessarily).
I don't think Jaime needs to kill Cersei or something in order to come full circle. Indeed, I think returning to Winterfell to face Bran and stand accused for what he's done, and then be saved by the people he treated well along the way -- that's full circle for Jaime.
There will be some discovery in the crypts, too late to affect the battle but that will prove vital for the final battle against the undead in episode 5.
Finding an ultimate NK killing weapon seems a little too cliche for the show. Wonder if some Stark+crypt magic means someone comes back like Benjen. The fan choice is of course Ned but it'd most likely be Lyanna or else like Bran the Builder with special knowledge about the Night King.
I'm not saying they'll find some magic ultimate killing weapon, but maybe a piece of information or some insight that will help somebody (probably Tyrion) figure out the way that they can find a way to win against the undead.
It was Tyrion's plan not Jaime's. Tyrion convinced Dany that it would work. Jaime wasn't even there when Tyrion met the 2nd time with Cersei and she finally agreed. It was a stupid plan. Cersei had no incentive to follow through on it. Cersei would have been the greatest idiot in GOT to actually send her troops up north. She'd have been handing the throne to Dany.I don't know that he really believed in Cersei so much as he believed in Jamie. If Jamie wasn't so gung ho, I don't think Tyrion would have believed Cersei.IMO Arya and Gendry will take the throne.Tyrion is not wise. Cersei played him like a fiddle. The Masters played him. A wise man knows when to keep his mouth shut but Tyrion likes to hear the sound of his voice too much.
Jon Snow is idealistic and will have to die (again) to achieve his goals. He is a classic Christ-like figure and does not belong in the world that he will save.
Dany will make some sort of mistake which will be her undoing. She might possibly prove to be unstable like her father. Or her distrust of others will cost her. She represents magic and dragons, and I think she too will not inherit the world she is creating.
Cersei won't win because she is pure evil.
Sansa has a chance. Tyrion has an outside shot. He is the wisest and most stable of all the characters.
But Arya and Gendry I think make the most sense from a writing standpoint. George Martin clearly loves the character, and so does everyone else. She is cunning and violent enough to survive the coming war and yet she has enough of a moral compass that she would make for a fine leader.
And now she might be carrying the former King's grandson.
Dendry has a royal pedigree and as good a claim as anyone to the throne - especially with the backing of an empowered Arya Stark. He also makes a fine counterbalance to Arya's personality. I think the other Starks will die and she will inherit the North. She then uses Dendry's heritage to claim the throne. Their marriage and baby unites the South and North, and everyone lives happily ever after.
Dendry and Arya would make terrible rulers. They've showed no leadership ability or desire to lead.
Tyrion has regressed badly the past few seasons; bunch of bad decisions, some cynical and perhaps weak (slavers), some too soft-hearted (believing Cersei could sacrifice for the common good).
That said, remember Jorah's speech, about everyone making mistakes? I wonder if he's due for some redemption.
And he really didn't mess up all that much with the slavers because at the end of the day, he knew his side had superior forces and that the odds of the slavers ever actually giving up (without being decimated) was almost zero. And the reality is that the betrayal actually worked out much greater in Dany's favor as it got her the ships she needed to sail to the Seven Kingdoms and it ended the slavers without a long drawn out war where her forces would have been weakened. Now the show didn't portray Tyrion this way because they wanted to make him seem weaker and it added tension, but that is how I see it i.e. you take the long shot for a peaceful resolution, but know full well it probably won't happen, and prepare for the upcoming battle.
I know it was Tyrion's plan, but Jamie bought in. If Jamie thought it was a bad idea, Tyrion would have as well. Tyrion has always believed in Jamie.It was Tyrion's plan not Jaime's. Tyrion convinced Dany that it would work. Jaime wasn't even there when Tyrion met the 2nd time with Cersei and she finally agreed. It was a stupid plan. Cersei had no incentive to follow through on it. Cersei would have been the greatest idiot in GOT to actually send her troops up north. She'd have been handing the throne to Dany.I don't know that he really believed in Cersei so much as he believed in Jamie. If Jamie wasn't so gung ho, I don't think Tyrion would have believed Cersei.IMO Arya and Gendry will take the throne.Tyrion is not wise. Cersei played him like a fiddle. The Masters played him. A wise man knows when to keep his mouth shut but Tyrion likes to hear the sound of his voice too much.
Jon Snow is idealistic and will have to die (again) to achieve his goals. He is a classic Christ-like figure and does not belong in the world that he will save.
Dany will make some sort of mistake which will be her undoing. She might possibly prove to be unstable like her father. Or her distrust of others will cost her. She represents magic and dragons, and I think she too will not inherit the world she is creating.
Cersei won't win because she is pure evil.
Sansa has a chance. Tyrion has an outside shot. He is the wisest and most stable of all the characters.
But Arya and Gendry I think make the most sense from a writing standpoint. George Martin clearly loves the character, and so does everyone else. She is cunning and violent enough to survive the coming war and yet she has enough of a moral compass that she would make for a fine leader.
And now she might be carrying the former King's grandson.
Dendry has a royal pedigree and as good a claim as anyone to the throne - especially with the backing of an empowered Arya Stark. He also makes a fine counterbalance to Arya's personality. I think the other Starks will die and she will inherit the North. She then uses Dendry's heritage to claim the throne. Their marriage and baby unites the South and North, and everyone lives happily ever after.
Dendry and Arya would make terrible rulers. They've showed no leadership ability or desire to lead.
Tyrion has regressed badly the past few seasons; bunch of bad decisions, some cynical and perhaps weak (slavers), some too soft-hearted (believing Cersei could sacrifice for the common good).
That said, remember Jorah's speech, about everyone making mistakes? I wonder if he's due for some redemption.
And he really didn't mess up all that much with the slavers because at the end of the day, he knew his side had superior forces and that the odds of the slavers ever actually giving up (without being decimated) was almost zero. And the reality is that the betrayal actually worked out much greater in Dany's favor as it got her the ships she needed to sail to the Seven Kingdoms and it ended the slavers without a long drawn out war where her forces would have been weakened. Now the show didn't portray Tyrion this way because they wanted to make him seem weaker and it added tension, but that is how I see it i.e. you take the long shot for a peaceful resolution, but know full well it probably won't happen, and prepare for the upcoming battle.
As for the slavers, Dany was gone with Drogon when Tyrion made the peace overture. The only troops he had were the Unsullied and the Second Sons who weren't even able to control the uprising in the city. By asking for a peace meeting, he confirmed their weakness. When the fleet showed up, Tyrion's forces were outmatched. It wasn't until Dany showed up with the dragons and the Dothraki that the tables were turned.
It was Tyrion's plan not Jaime's. Tyrion convinced Dany that it would work. Jaime wasn't even there when Tyrion met the 2nd time with Cersei and she finally agreed. It was a stupid plan. Cersei had no incentive to follow through on it. Cersei would have been the greatest idiot in GOT to actually send her troops up north. She'd have been handing the throne to Dany.I don't know that he really believed in Cersei so much as he believed in Jamie. If Jamie wasn't so gung ho, I don't think Tyrion would have believed Cersei.IMO Arya and Gendry will take the throne.Tyrion is not wise. Cersei played him like a fiddle. The Masters played him. A wise man knows when to keep his mouth shut but Tyrion likes to hear the sound of his voice too much.
Jon Snow is idealistic and will have to die (again) to achieve his goals. He is a classic Christ-like figure and does not belong in the world that he will save.
Dany will make some sort of mistake which will be her undoing. She might possibly prove to be unstable like her father. Or her distrust of others will cost her. She represents magic and dragons, and I think she too will not inherit the world she is creating.
Cersei won't win because she is pure evil.
Sansa has a chance. Tyrion has an outside shot. He is the wisest and most stable of all the characters.
But Arya and Gendry I think make the most sense from a writing standpoint. George Martin clearly loves the character, and so does everyone else. She is cunning and violent enough to survive the coming war and yet she has enough of a moral compass that she would make for a fine leader.
And now she might be carrying the former King's grandson.
Dendry has a royal pedigree and as good a claim as anyone to the throne - especially with the backing of an empowered Arya Stark. He also makes a fine counterbalance to Arya's personality. I think the other Starks will die and she will inherit the North. She then uses Dendry's heritage to claim the throne. Their marriage and baby unites the South and North, and everyone lives happily ever after.
Dendry and Arya would make terrible rulers. They've showed no leadership ability or desire to lead.
Tyrion has regressed badly the past few seasons; bunch of bad decisions, some cynical and perhaps weak (slavers), some too soft-hearted (believing Cersei could sacrifice for the common good).
That said, remember Jorah's speech, about everyone making mistakes? I wonder if he's due for some redemption.
And he really didn't mess up all that much with the slavers because at the end of the day, he knew his side had superior forces and that the odds of the slavers ever actually giving up (without being decimated) was almost zero. And the reality is that the betrayal actually worked out much greater in Dany's favor as it got her the ships she needed to sail to the Seven Kingdoms and it ended the slavers without a long drawn out war where her forces would have been weakened. Now the show didn't portray Tyrion this way because they wanted to make him seem weaker and it added tension, but that is how I see it i.e. you take the long shot for a peaceful resolution, but know full well it probably won't happen, and prepare for the upcoming battle.
As for the slavers, Dany was gone with Drogon when Tyrion made the peace overture. The only troops he had were the Unsullied and the Second Sons who weren't even able to control the uprising in the city. By asking for a peace meeting, he confirmed their weakness. When the fleet showed up, Tyrion's forces were outmatched. It wasn't until Dany showed up with the dragons and the Dothraki that the tables were turned.
I think most, if not all, in the crypts die. I don't see Tyrion being there though. I see him being out of the crypt and surviving.Basically what I had, except I think Jamie kills Cersei (not Tyrion) and Jon kills Dany to trigger the prophecy and defeat the Night King (I also think she turns on him giving basically no choice and he almost accidentally triggers the prophecy). All of those survivors that you have, all loyal to Jon right now except Yara (Dany and she would absolutely support Jon if he was left) and Jamie (though he is far more likely to support Jon than Dany and Dany would probably kill him anyway for killer her father something Jon doesn't seem as hung up on).
I think Theon and the Ironborn die protecting Bran, who survives, as for men to survive long term, the history of men and Children, must survive.
Trying to figure out who will die, I am looking at, men winning eventually and Dany and Jon taking the throne together, breaking the wheel of only one ruler. Both will rule.
So I got Samwell Tarley taking over Warden of the South with the Tyrells and Martells gone and Sam as the lone male survivor of the Tarleys.
Jamie becomes Warden of the West as last surviving member of the Lannisters. I think Tyrion dies killing Cersei.
Gendry takes over as head of the Baratheon family with Arya as his wife.
Sansa becomes Warden of the North.
Yara ends up ruling the Iron Isles as Euron's fleet is destroyed by dragons.
Lots of the supporting characters are going to die. Lots.
She is a very strong fighter,
If Dany doesn't survive then Jon loses the Dothraki and the Unsullied and maybe even any surviving dragons. Even more so if it is found out he killed Dany. Jon killing Dany could even cause the Dothraki and Unsullied to turn on Jon and his army.I think most, if not all, in the crypts die. I don't see Tyrion being there though. I see him being out of the crypt and surviving.Basically what I had, except I think Jamie kills Cersei (not Tyrion) and Jon kills Dany to trigger the prophecy and defeat the Night King (I also think she turns on him giving basically no choice and he almost accidentally triggers the prophecy). All of those survivors that you have, all loyal to Jon right now except Yara (Dany and she would absolutely support Jon if he was left) and Jamie (though he is far more likely to support Jon than Dany and Dany would probably kill him anyway for killer her father something Jon doesn't seem as hung up on).
I think Theon and the Ironborn die protecting Bran, who survives, as for men to survive long term, the history of men and Children, must survive.
Trying to figure out who will die, I am looking at, men winning eventually and Dany and Jon taking the throne together, breaking the wheel of only one ruler. Both will rule.
So I got Samwell Tarley taking over Warden of the South with the Tyrells and Martells gone and Sam as the lone male survivor of the Tarleys.
Jamie becomes Warden of the West as last surviving member of the Lannisters. I think Tyrion dies killing Cersei.
Gendry takes over as head of the Baratheon family with Arya as his wife.
Sansa becomes Warden of the North.
Yara ends up ruling the Iron Isles as Euron's fleet is destroyed by dragons.
Lots of the supporting characters are going to die. Lots.
I really don't see Dany living. She is a very strong fighter, but a terrible leader, and I just can't see her sharing the throne with anyone, especially someone with a stronger claim (he is not only a male relative but the child of her older brother, such that even if he was a female he would have had a stronger claim).
QuoteShe is a very strong fighter,
Not really, she has never killed anyone.
Jon will have Rhaegal and will have defeated the army of the dead. He will have enough power and influence to defeat hired guns who don't actually have loyalty to anything other than a buck.If Dany doesn't survive then Jon loses the Dothraki and the Unsullied and maybe even any surviving dragons. Even more so if it is found out he killed Dany. Jon killing Dany could even cause the Dothraki and Unsullied to turn on Jon and his army.I think most, if not all, in the crypts die. I don't see Tyrion being there though. I see him being out of the crypt and surviving.Basically what I had, except I think Jamie kills Cersei (not Tyrion) and Jon kills Dany to trigger the prophecy and defeat the Night King (I also think she turns on him giving basically no choice and he almost accidentally triggers the prophecy). All of those survivors that you have, all loyal to Jon right now except Yara (Dany and she would absolutely support Jon if he was left) and Jamie (though he is far more likely to support Jon than Dany and Dany would probably kill him anyway for killer her father something Jon doesn't seem as hung up on).
I think Theon and the Ironborn die protecting Bran, who survives, as for men to survive long term, the history of men and Children, must survive.
Trying to figure out who will die, I am looking at, men winning eventually and Dany and Jon taking the throne together, breaking the wheel of only one ruler. Both will rule.
So I got Samwell Tarley taking over Warden of the South with the Tyrells and Martells gone and Sam as the lone male survivor of the Tarleys.
Jamie becomes Warden of the West as last surviving member of the Lannisters. I think Tyrion dies killing Cersei.
Gendry takes over as head of the Baratheon family with Arya as his wife.
Sansa becomes Warden of the North.
Yara ends up ruling the Iron Isles as Euron's fleet is destroyed by dragons.
Lots of the supporting characters are going to die. Lots.
I really don't see Dany living. She is a very strong fighter, but a terrible leader, and I just can't see her sharing the throne with anyone, especially someone with a stronger claim (he is not only a male relative but the child of her older brother, such that even if he was a female he would have had a stronger claim).
The survivors of the North and the Vale won't be enough to beat Cersei's army. With Dany dying, especially at the hands of Jon, Jon loses tremendous amounts of power.
I think Dany has to survive. Only she controls the power to defeat Cersei's army.
and I obviously meant it as a leader. For example, Jamie was one of the most skilled swordsmen in the Seven Kingdoms, but he was a terrible general. Dany has always been skilled at leading men in battle as well as strategically. She is a terrible ruler though. She proved that across the pond and in her short time in Seven Kingdoms.QuoteShe is a very strong fighter,
Not really, she has never killed anyone.
She singlehandedly murdered every Khal in Vaes Dothrak, it's how she won them over for good.
Am I nuts or does nobody know Jaime pushed Bran out the window besides Bran? If I remember right he couldn't recall it at first, but wild that he never told anybody since.
Whats with the big white wolf in the scene where Jon, Sam and other wall survivor guy were chatting it up like frat brothers on the battlements?
Foreshadowing? Just a randomnot Ghost wolf? A scene shot several seasons ago?
Just thought it was a little bizarre and confusing...
I can't get over the fact that Jon Snow witnessed this and thinks it's a smart idea to put everyone in the crypts where there are tons of dead people:
(https://pa1.narvii.com/6539/926970fbbe2e9fd03889e82599cdeda65420c659_hq.gif)
Seems pretty stupid
I can't get over the fact that Jon Snow witnessed this and thinks it's a smart idea to put everyone in the crypts where there are tons of dead people:Here is my problem with the crypts. Aren't most of the dead people down their in singular stone crypts? A stone cover of a crypt has to weight several hundred pounds. Is one dead person strong enough to lift the stone cover aside and get out of the crypt? Or does the magic of raising them from the dead just so happen to raise them out of stone confinement?
(https://pa1.narvii.com/6539/926970fbbe2e9fd03889e82599cdeda65420c659_hq.gif)
Seems pretty stupid
I can't get over the fact that Jon Snow witnessed this and thinks it's a smart idea to put everyone in the crypts where there are tons of dead people:Here is my problem with the crypts. Aren't most of the dead people down their in singular stone crypts? A stone cover of a crypt has to weight several hundred pounds. Is one dead person strong enough to lift the stone cover aside and get out of the crypt? Or does the magic of raising them from the dead just so happen to raise them out of stone confinement?
(https://pa1.narvii.com/6539/926970fbbe2e9fd03889e82599cdeda65420c659_hq.gif)
Seems pretty stupid
Am I the only person who thinks the White Walkers win the battle in next weeks episode?
I also think there is a time limit to how long someone is dead and can be risen. I mean as we've seen from the red god followers, the longer someone is dead the harder it is to bring the back. I can't imagine it doesn't work the same way for the Night King. I also think there are probably hundreds of thousands dead wildlings throughout the north that haven't been arisen (or at least haven't been shown to have been arisen). I think something happens in the crypts, but I'd be a little surprised if all of the dead Starks are suddenly arisen. It wouldn't totally shock me, but isn't something I'm really expecting.I can't get over the fact that Jon Snow witnessed this and thinks it's a smart idea to put everyone in the crypts where there are tons of dead people:Here is my problem with the crypts. Aren't most of the dead people down their in singular stone crypts? A stone cover of a crypt has to weight several hundred pounds. Is one dead person strong enough to lift the stone cover aside and get out of the crypt? Or does the magic of raising them from the dead just so happen to raise them out of stone confinement?
(https://pa1.narvii.com/6539/926970fbbe2e9fd03889e82599cdeda65420c659_hq.gif)
Seems pretty stupid
Also, what is Beric Dondarrions role in this? Feel like his character always felt out of place but had some role. I feel like the entire Lord of Light has some role in this. Maybe somehow with the crypts?The Lord of the Light is what brought the Prince Who Was Promised prophecy that most believe Jon will fulfill. The books have a lot about it in them, and it seems pretty clearly to be Jon, especially as more of his birth has been revealed on the show.
How long have the dead been in the crypts? Is there a time limit on how long somebody can be dead before theyre reanimated? Or can pure skeletons rise?But we've seen skeletons come out of the ground already:
The Wiki talks about only the recent dead becoming reanimated.
She singlehandedly murdered every Khal in Vaes Dothrak, it's how she won them over for good.
According to legend, Winterfell was built by Brandon the Builder, who was aided by giants,[26] after the Long Night ended eight thousand years ago.[12] Maesters believe it was built in pieces over different eras, since the ancient Starks did not level the ground and plan it as a single structure.[12]
"There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" It is said 5 times in the first two books and never again,
So you ignore Tyrion clearly stating that even if they survive the Night King fight that they wouldn't have enough forces to defeat Cersei. Unless Jon is willing to burn King's landing and its 1 million inhabitants to the ground Rhaegal will be of limited use. Dragons are not invulnerable and it has already been shown that even one ballista can hurt a dragon. The Lanister army is still a powerful force that easily defeated the Tyrell army and the 20,000 strong golden company are the best mercenary force in the world. Cersei also assuredly has more wildfire on hand.Jon will have Rhaegal and will have defeated the army of the dead. He will have enough power and influence to defeat hired guns who don't actually have loyalty to anything other than a buck.If Dany doesn't survive then Jon loses the Dothraki and the Unsullied and maybe even any surviving dragons. Even more so if it is found out he killed Dany. Jon killing Dany could even cause the Dothraki and Unsullied to turn on Jon and his army.I think most, if not all, in the crypts die. I don't see Tyrion being there though. I see him being out of the crypt and surviving.Basically what I had, except I think Jamie kills Cersei (not Tyrion) and Jon kills Dany to trigger the prophecy and defeat the Night King (I also think she turns on him giving basically no choice and he almost accidentally triggers the prophecy). All of those survivors that you have, all loyal to Jon right now except Yara (Dany and she would absolutely support Jon if he was left) and Jamie (though he is far more likely to support Jon than Dany and Dany would probably kill him anyway for killer her father something Jon doesn't seem as hung up on).
I think Theon and the Ironborn die protecting Bran, who survives, as for men to survive long term, the history of men and Children, must survive.
Trying to figure out who will die, I am looking at, men winning eventually and Dany and Jon taking the throne together, breaking the wheel of only one ruler. Both will rule.
So I got Samwell Tarley taking over Warden of the South with the Tyrells and Martells gone and Sam as the lone male survivor of the Tarleys.
Jamie becomes Warden of the West as last surviving member of the Lannisters. I think Tyrion dies killing Cersei.
Gendry takes over as head of the Baratheon family with Arya as his wife.
Sansa becomes Warden of the North.
Yara ends up ruling the Iron Isles as Euron's fleet is destroyed by dragons.
Lots of the supporting characters are going to die. Lots.
I really don't see Dany living. She is a very strong fighter, but a terrible leader, and I just can't see her sharing the throne with anyone, especially someone with a stronger claim (he is not only a male relative but the child of her older brother, such that even if he was a female he would have had a stronger claim).
The survivors of the North and the Vale won't be enough to beat Cersei's army. With Dany dying, especially at the hands of Jon, Jon loses tremendous amounts of power.
I think Dany has to survive. Only she controls the power to defeat Cersei's army.
Cersei isn't insane. She's just resolved that she's in a win or die situation from the beginning. Her quote from season 1: "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground." She was also prophesied to be queen until someone younger and more beautiful casts her down. That well could be Dany but it certainly is not the Night King.It was Tyrion's plan not Jaime's. Tyrion convinced Dany that it would work. Jaime wasn't even there when Tyrion met the 2nd time with Cersei and she finally agreed. It was a stupid plan. Cersei had no incentive to follow through on it. Cersei would have been the greatest idiot in GOT to actually send her troops up north. She'd have been handing the throne to Dany.I don't know that he really believed in Cersei so much as he believed in Jamie. If Jamie wasn't so gung ho, I don't think Tyrion would have believed Cersei.IMO Arya and Gendry will take the throne.Tyrion is not wise. Cersei played him like a fiddle. The Masters played him. A wise man knows when to keep his mouth shut but Tyrion likes to hear the sound of his voice too much.
Jon Snow is idealistic and will have to die (again) to achieve his goals. He is a classic Christ-like figure and does not belong in the world that he will save.
Dany will make some sort of mistake which will be her undoing. She might possibly prove to be unstable like her father. Or her distrust of others will cost her. She represents magic and dragons, and I think she too will not inherit the world she is creating.
Cersei won't win because she is pure evil.
Sansa has a chance. Tyrion has an outside shot. He is the wisest and most stable of all the characters.
But Arya and Gendry I think make the most sense from a writing standpoint. George Martin clearly loves the character, and so does everyone else. She is cunning and violent enough to survive the coming war and yet she has enough of a moral compass that she would make for a fine leader.
And now she might be carrying the former King's grandson.
Dendry has a royal pedigree and as good a claim as anyone to the throne - especially with the backing of an empowered Arya Stark. He also makes a fine counterbalance to Arya's personality. I think the other Starks will die and she will inherit the North. She then uses Dendry's heritage to claim the throne. Their marriage and baby unites the South and North, and everyone lives happily ever after.
Dendry and Arya would make terrible rulers. They've showed no leadership ability or desire to lead.
Tyrion has regressed badly the past few seasons; bunch of bad decisions, some cynical and perhaps weak (slavers), some too soft-hearted (believing Cersei could sacrifice for the common good).
That said, remember Jorah's speech, about everyone making mistakes? I wonder if he's due for some redemption.
And he really didn't mess up all that much with the slavers because at the end of the day, he knew his side had superior forces and that the odds of the slavers ever actually giving up (without being decimated) was almost zero. And the reality is that the betrayal actually worked out much greater in Dany's favor as it got her the ships she needed to sail to the Seven Kingdoms and it ended the slavers without a long drawn out war where her forces would have been weakened. Now the show didn't portray Tyrion this way because they wanted to make him seem weaker and it added tension, but that is how I see it i.e. you take the long shot for a peaceful resolution, but know full well it probably won't happen, and prepare for the upcoming battle.
As for the slavers, Dany was gone with Drogon when Tyrion made the peace overture. The only troops he had were the Unsullied and the Second Sons who weren't even able to control the uprising in the city. By asking for a peace meeting, he confirmed their weakness. When the fleet showed up, Tyrion's forces were outmatched. It wasn't until Dany showed up with the dragons and the Dothraki that the tables were turned.
Well, ignoring the threat of the undead army is suicidal. I think Jaime and Tyrion underestimated just how insane their sister is. Which is realistic. A sane mind believes that even the craziest and most evil people have some good in them, or at least enough of a sense of self-preservation to put grudges aside in the name of mutual survival. Cersei unfortunately does not possess these qualities - she is almost unbelievably evil. Her siblings tried to get her help and they failed, leaving them in the same situation they would have been in otherwise.
Not extending the olive branch would have been much more foolish. The Dead King is marching regardless. The only other option besides a truce was an immediate war with Cersei which would have left the North undefended and the winner of the war greatly weakened.
It was a no-win situation.
QuoteShe singlehandedly murdered every Khal in Vaes Dothrak, it's how she won them over for good.
Because she is immune to fire and they were not that is not fighting ability though. Give it up she has some special powers, but directly she is not a good fighter.
QuoteShe singlehandedly murdered every Khal in Vaes Dothrak, it's how she won them over for good.
Because she is immune to fire and they were not that is not fighting ability though. Give it up she has some special powers, but directly she is not a good fighter.
I was correcting your obvious error that she had never killed anyone.
RE: cryptchat I can't get over the fact that if they really think the battle is unwinnable, the best-case scenario for those people is to huddle down there for a day or so then get torn to bits by the ravenous corpses of their former friends & family. Good times for the crypt crew.
I wonder if part of why they're down there is that we'll finally get some clue about the symbols the White Walkers like to make out of their corpses. Mostly the spiral pattern. They've been seen since literally scene 1 of the series but never even hinted at an explanation.
Also, what is Beric Dondarrions role in this? Feel like his character always felt out of place but had some role. I feel like the entire Lord of Light has some role in this. Maybe somehow with the crypts?The Lord of the Light is what brought the Prince Who Was Promised prophecy that most believe Jon will fulfill. The books have a lot about it in them, and it seems pretty clearly to be Jon, especially as more of his birth has been revealed on the show.
Beric and his merry men also brought back the Hound who likely has important things to do in Kings Landing.
Whats with the big white wolf in the scene where Jon, Sam and other wall survivor guy were chatting it up like frat brothers on the battlements?
Foreshadowing? Just a randomnot Ghost wolf? A scene shot several seasons ago?
Just thought it was a little bizarre and confusing...
It was Ghost. He's been around, but they just haven't really showed him.
QuoteShe singlehandedly murdered every Khal in Vaes Dothrak, it's how she won them over for good.
Because she is immune to fire and they were not that is not fighting ability though. Give it up she has some special powers, but directly she is not a good fighter.
I was correcting your obvious error that she had never killed anyone.
RE: cryptchat I can't get over the fact that if they really think the battle is unwinnable, the best-case scenario for those people is to huddle down there for a day or so then get torn to bits by the ravenous corpses of their former friends & family. Good times for the crypt crew.
I wonder if part of why they're down there is that we'll finally get some clue about the symbols the White Walkers like to make out of their corpses. Mostly the spiral pattern. They've been seen since literally scene 1 of the series but never even hinted at an explanation.
Though mysterious, there are several hints to why they make this pattern. First, it's the pattern of stones the children of forest used at the location the white walkers were created. So making this pattern may be the white walkers echoing the magic used in their creation, or a notice to the children themselves.
Second, it very much resembles the spokes of a wheel, which you'll recall people referencing several times throughout the seasons. The wheel rolls over rich & poor, and Daenarys promises to break the wheel.
This show is pretty smart. Use the first two episodes of the final season to get everyone settled back into the world and re-establish some emotional bonds before what I imagine is going to be a 90-minute fight scene next week. The pacing of the storytelling by spacing out the episodes this way should give the big expensive battle some real heft.
And it's nice to see Arya get some. She's really having it at right now.
saw this mentioned earlier in the thread (wasn't sure if it was you) and thought it to be a really good twist in the story.This show is pretty smart. Use the first two episodes of the final season to get everyone settled back into the world and re-establish some emotional bonds before what I imagine is going to be a 90-minute fight scene next week. The pacing of the storytelling by spacing out the episodes this way should give the big expensive battle some real heft.
And it's nice to see Arya get some. She's really having it at right now.
I think they kill off Arya. Only to have Tyrion or Jamie or someone rip of their face and come back as her and kill Cersei. She needs to use that power in a meaningful way to complete her story.
This show is pretty smart. Use the first two episodes of the final season to get everyone settled back into the world and re-establish some emotional bonds before what I imagine is going to be a 90-minute fight scene next week. The pacing of the storytelling by spacing out the episodes this way should give the big expensive battle some real heft.
And it's nice to see Arya get some. She's really having it at right now.
I think they kill off Arya. Only to have Tyrion or Jamie or someone rip of their face and come back as her and kill Cersei. She needs to use that power in a meaningful way to complete her story.
so.....at this point, is there a general consensus as to whether the North defeats the Night King at Winterfell or the North is defeated and retreats to King's Landing for the all out battle? Also, with the predictions of so many characters being killed off this coming episode, any predictions for who joins the Night King during the battle other than those in the Stark's crypts?
I wonder if part of why they're down there is that we'll finally get some clue about the symbols the White Walkers like to make out of their corpses. Mostly the spiral pattern. They've been seen since literally scene 1 of the series but never even hinted at an explanation.
Though mysterious, there are several hints to why they make this pattern. First, it's the pattern of stones the children of forest used at the location the white walkers were created. So making this pattern may be the white walkers echoing the magic used in their creation, or a notice to the children themselves.
This show is pretty smart. Use the first two episodes of the final season to get everyone settled back into the world and re-establish some emotional bonds before what I imagine is going to be a 90-minute fight scene next week. The pacing of the storytelling by spacing out the episodes this way should give the big expensive battle some real heft.
And it's nice to see Arya get some. She's really having it at right now.
I think they kill off Arya. Only to have Tyrion or Jamie or someone rip of their face and come back as her and kill Cersei. She needs to use that power in a meaningful way to complete her story.
This show is pretty smart. Use the first two episodes of the final season to get everyone settled back into the world and re-establish some emotional bonds before what I imagine is going to be a 90-minute fight scene next week. The pacing of the storytelling by spacing out the episodes this way should give the big expensive battle some real heft.
And it's nice to see Arya get some. She's really having it at right now.
I think they kill off Arya. Only to have Tyrion or Jamie or someone rip of their face and come back as her and kill Cersei. She needs to use that power in a meaningful way to complete her story.
That would be almost exactly what she did with Frey. Can't see them repeating themselves like that.
But I do think she will need to use a face for something meaningful, but probably against the Night King.
This show is pretty smart. Use the first two episodes of the final season to get everyone settled back into the world and re-establish some emotional bonds before what I imagine is going to be a 90-minute fight scene next week. The pacing of the storytelling by spacing out the episodes this way should give the big expensive battle some real heft.
And it's nice to see Arya get some. She's really having it at right now.
I think they “kill off” Arya. Only to have Tyrion or Jamie or someone rip of their face and come back as her and kill Cersei. She needs to use that power in a meaningful way to complete her story.
I like that.
This show is pretty smart. Use the first two episodes of the final season to get everyone settled back into the world and re-establish some emotional bonds before what I imagine is going to be a 90-minute fight scene next week. The pacing of the storytelling by spacing out the episodes this way should give the big expensive battle some real heft.
And it's nice to see Arya get some. She's really having it at right now.
I think they kill off Arya. Only to have Tyrion or Jamie or someone rip of their face and come back as her and kill Cersei. She needs to use that power in a meaningful way to complete her story.
That would be almost exactly what she did with Frey. Can't see them repeating themselves like that.
But I do think she will need to use a face for something meaningful, but probably against the Night King.
This show is pretty smart. Use the first two episodes of the final season to get everyone settled back into the world and re-establish some emotional bonds before what I imagine is going to be a 90-minute fight scene next week. The pacing of the storytelling by spacing out the episodes this way should give the big expensive battle some real heft.
And it's nice to see Arya get some. She's really having it at right now.
I think they kill off Arya. Only to have Tyrion or Jamie or someone rip of their face and come back as her and kill Cersei. She needs to use that power in a meaningful way to complete her story.
That would be almost exactly what she did with Frey. Can't see them repeating themselves like that.
But I do think she will need to use a face for something meaningful, but probably against the Night King.
Who could she impersonate that would possibly matter to the Night King though? He just wants to kill everybody and doesn't play favorites, aside from Bran who has the mark so he won't be fooled. Jon Snow, I guess, to let the real Jon sneak off and do something important?
After last episode I'd guess if Nights King isn't at Winterfell he would go after the Citadel not Kings landing.hmm, that would be a sensible, unexpected twist but if his prime target was Bran, wouldn't it make more sense for him to be part of the attack at Winterfell? if NK did go to the citadel, it would prevent anyone at Winterfell from joining his army after they're killed and also leave the Starks in the crypt instead of joining the fight
This show is pretty smart. Use the first two episodes of the final season to get everyone settled back into the world and re-establish some emotional bonds before what I imagine is going to be a 90-minute fight scene next week. The pacing of the storytelling by spacing out the episodes this way should give the big expensive battle some real heft.
And it's nice to see Arya get some. She's really having it at right now.
I think they kill off Arya. Only to have Tyrion or Jamie or someone rip of their face and come back as her and kill Cersei. She needs to use that power in a meaningful way to complete her story.
That would be almost exactly what she did with Frey. Can't see them repeating themselves like that.
But I do think she will need to use a face for something meaningful, but probably against the Night King.
Who could she impersonate that would possibly matter to the Night King though? He just wants to kill everybody and doesn't play favorites, aside from Bran who has the mark so he won't be fooled. Jon Snow, I guess, to let the real Jon sneak off and do something important?
Doesn't the person have to be dead for her to take their face?
Could she take a white walker's face?!?!?!?
After last episode I'd guess if Nights King isn't at Winterfell he would go after the Citadel not Kings landing.
What's wild is that with a dragon the Night King could go zipping off anywhere in Westeros and easily start a second army from scratch. Which means he probably won't do that.excellent point -- provided that the dragon didn't incinerate the people it killed which is what happened to everyone else the dragons burned.
What's wild is that with a dragon the Night King could go zipping off anywhere in Westeros and easily start a second army from scratch. Which means he probably won't do that.excellent point -- provided that the dragon didn't incinerate the people it killed which is what happened to everyone else the dragons burned.
My thought is he will want to burn it down and it's a soft target but still it's the second biggest target he should want based on eps 2 Bran's explanation.After last episode I'd guess if Nights King isn't at Winterfell he would go after the Citadel not Kings landing.hmm, that would be a sensible, unexpected twist but if his prime target was Bran, wouldn't it make more sense for him to be part of the attack at Winterfell? if NK did go to the citadel, it would prevent anyone at Winterfell from joining his army after they're killed and also leave the Starks in the crypt instead of joining the fight
What's wild is that with a dragon the Night King could go zipping off anywhere in Westeros and easily start a second army from scratch. Which means he probably won't do that.
The one thing I'm wondering, regardless if they win the battle or not, is how the main characters and others who survive are even going to leave/escape Winterfell. I doubt even if they win the battle that they'll kill ALL the wights + there's the whole "raise the dead" aspect of things. Are they all hopping on a dragon and going somewhere else? :P
What's wild is that with a dragon the Night King could go zipping off anywhere in Westeros and easily start a second army from scratch. Which means he probably won't do that.
And he was conspicuously absent from that final shot of the episode.
What's wild is that with a dragon the Night King could go zipping off anywhere in Westeros and easily start a second army from scratch. Which means he probably won't do that.Except, does the Night King even have any knowledge of how Westeros is laid out, where the cities and people are and so forth? He has been beyond the Wall for thousands of years. Westeros changed in that time.
What's wild is that with a dragon the Night King could go zipping off anywhere in Westeros and easily start a second army from scratch. Which means he probably won't do that.Except, does the Night King even have any knowledge of how Westeros is laid out, where the cities and people are and so forth? He has been beyond the Wall for thousands of years. Westeros changed in that time.
Has it been made known in the books or television shows whether the Night King gains the knowledge and memories of the dead he brings back?
The one thing I'm wondering, regardless if they win the battle or not, is how the main characters and others who survive are even going to leave/escape Winterfell. I doubt even if they win the battle that they'll kill ALL the wights + there's the whole "raise the dead" aspect of things. Are they all hopping on a dragon and going somewhere else? :P
Most of the North is at Winterfell. There isn't much around for the Night King to increase his strength. He would have to fly a long long way to the Vale to find great numbers of people.What's wild is that with a dragon the Night King could go zipping off anywhere in Westeros and easily start a second army from scratch. Which means he probably won't do that.Except, does the Night King even have any knowledge of how Westeros is laid out, where the cities and people are and so forth? He has been beyond the Wall for thousands of years. Westeros changed in that time.
Has it been made known in the books or television shows whether the Night King gains the knowledge and memories of the dead he brings back?
It can't be too hard to find a map, or for that matter, to fly along the coast or a river until you see a city on the horizon.
What's wild is that with a dragon the Night King could go zipping off anywhere in Westeros and easily start a second army from scratch. Which means he probably won't do that.excellent point -- provided that the dragon didn't incinerate the people it killed which is what happened to everyone else the dragons burned.
Normally I get a bit irked by stupid character behavior, but with the night king I'm not too bothered b/c he represents death - a slow and unstoppable lineal force. Death doesn't strategize, it just keeps on rolling.
I don't think Martin is killing his proxy in the story who seems to be set to write the in universe version of the book series.
I don't think Martin is killing his proxy in the story who seems to be set to write the in universe version of the book series.
They asked him for the end state of the story, along with essential beats. I'd imagine Sam's fate is one of the few he has pretty set that hasn't changed much over the years.I don't think Martin is killing his proxy in the story who seems to be set to write the in universe version of the book series.
I am not sure Martin has any say on it.
He also knows how the show ends and has said it generally conforms with what he intends for the books.They asked him for the end state of the story, along with essential beats. I'd imagine Sam's fate is one of the few he has pretty set that hasn't changed much over the years.I don't think Martin is killing his proxy in the story who seems to be set to write the in universe version of the book series.
I am not sure Martin has any say on it.
He also knows how the show ends and has said it generally conforms with what he intends for the books.They asked him for the end state of the story, along with essential beats. I'd imagine Sam's fate is one of the few he has pretty set that hasn't changed much over the years.I don't think Martin is killing his proxy in the story who seems to be set to write the in universe version of the book series.
I am not sure Martin has any say on it.
All right here's my stupid theory for the day:
I'm pretty sure Daenerys is gonna do at least a partial villain or Mad King turn here down the stretch, probably before a final redemption via sacrificing herself. And she's just found out that Jon is the real heir AND where his proof comes from.
So my prediction is that next episode she's gonna kill or try to kill Bran and Sam. Bran she could easily just torch when the Night King comes for him and claim/rationalize that killing the Night King was too important (NK will probably get away though).
Sam will be trickier but if the crypts go to hell there'd be opportunities to take him out in the chaos, maybe claim he had already been killed and turned. My gut is that he might survive to tell Jon about it though, or Jon will find a clue on his corpse.
All right here's my stupid theory for the day:
I'm pretty sure Daenerys is gonna do at least a partial villain or Mad King turn here down the stretch, probably before a final redemption via sacrificing herself. And she's just found out that Jon is the real heir AND where his proof comes from.
So my prediction is that next episode she's gonna kill or try to kill Bran and Sam. Bran she could easily just torch when the Night King comes for him and claim/rationalize that killing the Night King was too important (NK will probably get away though).
Sam will be trickier but if the crypts go to hell there'd be opportunities to take him out in the chaos, maybe claim he had already been killed and turned. My gut is that he might survive to tell Jon about it though, or Jon will find a clue on his corpse.
TP for the daily prediction! I can definitely see Daenerys doing something irrational and evil, although I don't personally see her killing Sam.
Hmm, I guess my crazy theory would be that Bran is flown away to the God's Eye island by Daenerys (towards the end of the winterfell battle) to meet with the remaining children of the forest and the weirwood trees, while John & Arya stay behind to retreat and try to slow down the night king.
One question I'm hoping we get answered is - where the hell is Howland Reed, Myra's father? He can confirm John's background, and has purposely only devoted his family (Myra & Jojen) to servicing Bran w/o even trying to come to help Robb, Ned, etc. He also has been to the God's eye and is a magic user. I hope he shows up soon.
He was at the Tower of Joy, so he may show up at some point in the show, but it almost certainly would be after the Night King battle.All right here's my stupid theory for the day:
I'm pretty sure Daenerys is gonna do at least a partial villain or Mad King turn here down the stretch, probably before a final redemption via sacrificing herself. And she's just found out that Jon is the real heir AND where his proof comes from.
So my prediction is that next episode she's gonna kill or try to kill Bran and Sam. Bran she could easily just torch when the Night King comes for him and claim/rationalize that killing the Night King was too important (NK will probably get away though).
Sam will be trickier but if the crypts go to hell there'd be opportunities to take him out in the chaos, maybe claim he had already been killed and turned. My gut is that he might survive to tell Jon about it though, or Jon will find a clue on his corpse.
TP for the daily prediction! I can definitely see Daenerys doing something irrational and evil, although I don't personally see her killing Sam.
Hmm, I guess my crazy theory would be that Bran is flown away to the God's Eye island by Daenerys (towards the end of the winterfell battle) to meet with the remaining children of the forest and the weirwood trees, while John & Arya stay behind to retreat and try to slow down the night king.
One question I'm hoping we get answered is - where the hell is Howland Reed, Myra's father? He can confirm John's background, and has purposely only devoted his family (Myra & Jojen) to servicing Bran w/o even trying to come to help Robb, Ned, etc. He also has been to the God's eye and is a magic user. I hope he shows up soon.
It doesn't feel as though the show has laid the foundation for the Reeds to play a part in how the show wraps things up.
I wouldn't be surprised if Howland Reed ends up playing a part in the books (assuming they're ever released).
All right here's my stupid theory for the day:I expect the drama of Jon being a Targaryen to play out after the battle. Really don't see how the storytelling so far supports Dany turning villain. They played up how because of her love for Jon that Dany diverted from her Iron Throne quest to support Jon in stopping the Night King. She finds out right before the battle and Jon doesn't give any indication that he's going to press his claim. Even if he did, there's not going to be an outpouring of support for him. Dany would still have the Unsullied, Dothraki and the dragons. The more obvious play for Dany would be to propose marriage. Jon could be the King of the North while Dany rules the South.
I'm pretty sure Daenerys is gonna do at least a partial villain or Mad King turn here down the stretch, probably before a final redemption via sacrificing herself. And she's just found out that Jon is the real heir AND where his proof comes from.
So my prediction is that next episode she's gonna kill or try to kill Bran and Sam. Bran she could easily just torch when the Night King comes for him and claim/rationalize that killing the Night King was too important (NK will probably get away though).
Sam will be trickier but if the crypts go to hell there'd be opportunities to take him out in the chaos, maybe claim he had already been killed and turned. My gut is that he might survive to tell Jon about it though, or Jon will find a clue on his corpse.
Hmm, I guess my crazy theory would be that Bran is flown away to the God's Eye island by Daenerys (towards the end of the winterfell battle) to meet with the remaining children of the forest and the weirwood trees, while John & Arya stay behind to retreat and try to slow down the night king.
I haven't read the books, so I'm really not up on a lot of things as many of you guys are, but Im confused about the predictions of Bran dying.
Isn't that what the Night King wants so he can erase all human memory? So why would that happen?
I haven't read the books, so I'm really not up on a lot of things as many of you guys are, but Im confused about the predictions of Bran dying.
Isn't that what the Night King wants so he can erase all human memory? So why would that happen?
Because the way you hike up the drama and make a positive ending feel earned is by making the audience feel as though the good guys have already lost before the big turnaround.
Of course, if there's a major defeat (as I anticipate) this weekend, most people will assume that at least some of the good guys will figure it out before the close of episode 6. But if Bran is killed and the Night King seemingly achieves his "goal" then the reaction will be "WELL WHAT THE ???? DO THEY DO NOW?!"
This is basically what Marvel did with Avengers: Infinity War.
(and you can see this basically formula at work in most good action movies)
I haven't read the books, so I'm really not up on a lot of things as many of you guys are, but Im confused about the predictions of Bran dying.
Isn't that what the Night King wants so he can erase all human memory? So why would that happen?
*sippin*
hurricane 24oz
I figured it would be Arya as soon as they gave her that dagger, then it was cemented in that scene about the prophecy. I might have ensured myself a divorce, as I said this all aloud to my wife who had no idea what was coming.yeah they set it up in the episode but nothing before the episode making it very strange
Arya. Never would have guessed so I got that part wrong but they did defeat the night king in the episode and the Starks all lived. No truly major characters died either. Strange episode
Yeah, Im a bit confused what Bran was warged into the entire time. It showed the ravens at first, but was that what he was doing the entire time of the fighting? If so, why? I figured thered be more to him warging that whole time and itd play an integral role into the Night Kings death.
The books and show is called the Game of Thrones. The Night taking was never landing in the throne so he was never really the focusArya. Never would have guessed so I got that part wrong but they did defeat the night king in the episode and the Starks all lived. No truly major characters died either. Strange episode
Yeah, definitely a strange episode, but I liked it. The Arya thing was so unsuspected, and I really liked the Red Woman angle. You have to think that Bran knew the outcome the entire time, right?
That said, I do find it a bit strange and contradictory that they handled the White Walker threat before Cersei. I feel like the entire arc of the story was pushing the narrative that the White Walkers abd Army of the Dead were the true focus and greatest evil that they would face, so it seems strange to end with Cersei and have the battle for Kings landing be the final storyline that ends the show.
That was basically 80 minutes of not being able to see well. I am disappointed with that episode.
1. Why did the dragons fly off into the middle of nowhere for most of the battle?
2. Why did Bran warg and essentially provide no insight throughout the whole episode?
3. How did Arya get out of that room when no one else could even leave a ten foot radius?
4. Why didnt we at least find out ANYTHING new about the Army of the Dead?
No one talked during the entire episode. UGH
Anyone else have to turn all the lights off to watch it in the dark because almost the entire episode was in the dark? With the lights on it was hard to make things out for a while there.Same
Unpopular opinion - while I thoroughly enjoyed this episode/battle (even with the deaths - poor Jorah 😢) and liked it better than the Battle of the ****s, I still think the Battle at Hardhome was better. I found it more entertaining, and it was like the first time you got to see a major battle with the white walkers and wights, along with the Night King.
The books and show is called the Game of Thrones. The Night taking was never landing in the throne so he was never really the focusArya. Never would have guessed so I got that part wrong but they did defeat the night king in the episode and the Starks all lived. No truly major characters died either. Strange episode
Yeah, definitely a strange episode, but I liked it. The Arya thing was so unsuspected, and I really liked the Red Woman angle. You have to think that Bran knew the outcome the entire time, right?
That said, I do find it a bit strange and contradictory that they handled the White Walker threat before Cersei. I feel like the entire arc of the story was pushing the narrative that the White Walkers abd Army of the Dead were the true focus and greatest evil that they would face, so it seems strange to end with Cersei and have the battle for Kings landing be the final storyline that ends the show.
Anyone else have to turn all the lights off to watch it in the dark because almost the entire episode was in the dark? With the lights on it was hard to make things out for a while there.I get they were going for something, but I thought that was poor direction.
Weirdly I think that was the worst episode of the series. I can say that comfortably.
I mean it had moments and I get that most of it was a choice, but I actually thought the first 1/3rd was just a complete visual mess that was impossible to follow with any clarity. You see those closeups/quick cuts in poorly choreographed action films. I get they can only do so much with their budget, so turning everything into a grey blurry mess was maybe their only option, but I just thought it looked like trash.Weirdly I think that was the worst episode of the series. I can say that comfortably.
Interesting take. I thought it was awesome. There were a ton of little parts that I liked, including the Mormont girl and undead giant, the distortion caused by the weather, Melisandre's return/exit, the Night King bringing Tormund back to life, etc. I thought they kept my adrenaline going for a solid 80 minutes.
Weirdly I think that was the worst episode of the series. I can say that comfortably.
Interesting take. I thought it was awesome. There were a ton of little parts that I liked, including the Mormont girl and undead giant, the distortion caused by the weather, Melisandre's return/exit, the Night King bringing Tormund back to life, etc. I thought they kept my adrenaline going for a solid 80 minutes.
Do you mean in the entire series? Worst episode of the entire series? If so that's a massive hot take as there were episodes every year that were really kind of boring, especially the middle years.I mean it had moments and I get that most of it was a choice, but I actually thought the first 1/3rd was just a complete visual mess that was impossible to follow with any clarity. You see those closeups/quick cuts in poorly choreographed action films. I get they can only do so much with their budget, so turning everything into a grey blurry mess was maybe their only option, but I just thought it looked like trash.Weirdly I think that was the worst episode of the series. I can say that comfortably.
Interesting take. I thought it was awesome. There were a ton of little parts that I liked, including the Mormont girl and undead giant, the distortion caused by the weather, Melisandre's return/exit, the Night King bringing Tormund back to life, etc. I thought they kept my adrenaline going for a solid 80 minutes.
A couple fun fan moments, but actually pretty low stakes all things considered. The biggest thing frustrating me is that they never really do a good job explaining why Bran is there... what his purpose is... why they are trying to lure the Night King... what the Night King wants... what the purpose of any of that is... why are we even bothering with this... and then Arya out of nowhere is like "uh... ok? so... that's it?"
It just felt like really awful direction to me. Still fun, because Game of Thrones is always fun, but that was the worst episode of the show for me.
Hardhome was a great episode but it was also a blowout win for the Walkers.Unpopular opinion - while I thoroughly enjoyed this episode/battle (even with the deaths - poor Jorah 😢) and liked it better than the Battle of the ****s, I still think the Battle at Hardhome was better. I found it more entertaining, and it was like the first time you got to see a major battle with the white walkers and wights, along with the Night King.
Hardhome was the bomb. One of the best episodes of the whole series.
Did you expect Bran to stop being cryptic and explain himself or maybe the Night King to do a soliloquy? Seriously, they're doing a prequel so I expect they'll answer a lot of your Night King questions in it.I mean it had moments and I get that most of it was a choice, but I actually thought the first 1/3rd was just a complete visual mess that was impossible to follow with any clarity. You see those closeups/quick cuts in poorly choreographed action films. I get they can only do so much with their budget, so turning everything into a grey blurry mess was maybe their only option, but I just thought it looked like trash.Weirdly I think that was the worst episode of the series. I can say that comfortably.
Interesting take. I thought it was awesome. There were a ton of little parts that I liked, including the Mormont girl and undead giant, the distortion caused by the weather, Melisandre's return/exit, the Night King bringing Tormund back to life, etc. I thought they kept my adrenaline going for a solid 80 minutes.
A couple fun fan moments, but actually pretty low stakes all things considered. The biggest thing frustrating me is that they never really do a good job explaining why Bran is there... what his purpose is... why they are trying to lure the Night King... what the Night King wants... what the purpose of any of that is... why are we even bothering with this... and then Arya out of nowhere is like "uh... ok? so... that's it?"
It just felt like really awful direction to me. Still fun, because Game of Thrones is always fun, but that was the worst episode of the show for me.
Yup. I genuinely think it was the worst episode of the series. There's fan service moments which people will gaga about, but overall that was poorly directed and poorly written.Do you mean in the entire series? Worst episode of the entire series?I mean it had moments and I get that most of it was a choice, but I actually thought the first 1/3rd was just a complete visual mess that was impossible to follow with any clarity. You see those closeups/quick cuts in poorly choreographed action films. I get they can only do so much with their budget, so turning everything into a grey blurry mess was maybe their only option, but I just thought it looked like trash.Weirdly I think that was the worst episode of the series. I can say that comfortably.
Interesting take. I thought it was awesome. There were a ton of little parts that I liked, including the Mormont girl and undead giant, the distortion caused by the weather, Melisandre's return/exit, the Night King bringing Tormund back to life, etc. I thought they kept my adrenaline going for a solid 80 minutes.
A couple fun fan moments, but actually pretty low stakes all things considered. The biggest thing frustrating me is that they never really do a good job explaining why Bran is there... what his purpose is... why they are trying to lure the Night King... what the Night King wants... what the purpose of any of that is... why are we even bothering with this... and then Arya out of nowhere is like "uh... ok? so... that's it?"
It just felt like really awful direction to me. Still fun, because Game of Thrones is always fun, but that was the worst episode of the show for me.
1. LOL Bran was like the guy in the group project who does nothing while everyone else bails him out (Arya, Theon, etc). What was he doing the whole episode, just scouting with ravens? And poor Theon, goes through all that and then Bran at the end is just like, youve been good Theon. Thanks! :laugh:
But I loved how Theon went. As a fighter to the end who essentially redeemed himself. Although he probably should have tried something else besides literally run right at the night king (maybe a few jukes, throw something at him...)
2. Dany and Jon spent most of the episode just circling around Winterfell with the dragons like it was an airport. Only a few scenes where it looked like they were actually helping in the battle.
3. Yeah, those crypts were not safe. Who would have thought! :P
4. That episode was hard to see at times with the poor lighting. Yeah I know its happening in the night but still...
5. That scene in the beginning with the Dothrakis disappearing quickly gave me chills. Wow that was crazy. Really did feel like they were outmatched too.
6. Arya is a bad***!!! But Ill admit the Night King looks like one too. Loved his close ups.
7. Im actually surprised so many of the main characters made it out safe. Only Beric, Jorah, Red Woman, Lyanna, Theon and that Night Watch guy perished. Could have been a lot worse!
8. Arya truly saved the day. Everyone was screwed at that moment and she made her move. Im still a bit curious as to how she pulled it off? Did she impersonate one of the Night Kings generals? (With the face used as a mask)
prequel was cancelled I believe.Did you expect Bran to stop being cryptic and explain himself or maybe the Night King to do a soliloquy? Seriously, they're doing a prequel so I expect they'll answer a lot of your Night King questions in it.I mean it had moments and I get that most of it was a choice, but I actually thought the first 1/3rd was just a complete visual mess that was impossible to follow with any clarity. You see those closeups/quick cuts in poorly choreographed action films. I get they can only do so much with their budget, so turning everything into a grey blurry mess was maybe their only option, but I just thought it looked like trash.Weirdly I think that was the worst episode of the series. I can say that comfortably.
Interesting take. I thought it was awesome. There were a ton of little parts that I liked, including the Mormont girl and undead giant, the distortion caused by the weather, Melisandre's return/exit, the Night King bringing Tormund back to life, etc. I thought they kept my adrenaline going for a solid 80 minutes.
A couple fun fan moments, but actually pretty low stakes all things considered. The biggest thing frustrating me is that they never really do a good job explaining why Bran is there... what his purpose is... why they are trying to lure the Night King... what the Night King wants... what the purpose of any of that is... why are we even bothering with this... and then Arya out of nowhere is like "uh... ok? so... that's it?"
It just felt like really awful direction to me. Still fun, because Game of Thrones is always fun, but that was the worst episode of the show for me.
I thought they did quite well to maintain interest in a battle that lasted so long. I expected someone to take out the Night King and save the day ... err night but I was glad they didn't go with the obvious death by dragonfire or Jon being the hero and slaying him in a duel. Arya really was the best equipped to do so.
I'm expecting someone else to be found dead. Maybe Gilly. Maybe Podrick.If I saw correctly, Gilly was crawling through the crypts all bloody and Podrick was standing next to Jaime and Bryenne at the end.
prequel was cancelled I believe.Did you expect Bran to stop being cryptic and explain himself or maybe the Night King to do a soliloquy? Seriously, they're doing a prequel so I expect they'll answer a lot of your Night King questions in it.I mean it had moments and I get that most of it was a choice, but I actually thought the first 1/3rd was just a complete visual mess that was impossible to follow with any clarity. You see those closeups/quick cuts in poorly choreographed action films. I get they can only do so much with their budget, so turning everything into a grey blurry mess was maybe their only option, but I just thought it looked like trash.Weirdly I think that was the worst episode of the series. I can say that comfortably.
Interesting take. I thought it was awesome. There were a ton of little parts that I liked, including the Mormont girl and undead giant, the distortion caused by the weather, Melisandre's return/exit, the Night King bringing Tormund back to life, etc. I thought they kept my adrenaline going for a solid 80 minutes.
A couple fun fan moments, but actually pretty low stakes all things considered. The biggest thing frustrating me is that they never really do a good job explaining why Bran is there... what his purpose is... why they are trying to lure the Night King... what the Night King wants... what the purpose of any of that is... why are we even bothering with this... and then Arya out of nowhere is like "uh... ok? so... that's it?"
It just felt like really awful direction to me. Still fun, because Game of Thrones is always fun, but that was the worst episode of the show for me.
I thought they did quite well to maintain interest in a battle that lasted so long. I expected someone to take out the Night King and save the day ... err night but I was glad they didn't go with the obvious death by dragonfire or Jon being the hero and slaying him in a duel. Arya really was the best equipped to do so.
the Night King bringing Tormund back to life,
It makes sense that Arya would be the one to kill the Night King. The way she killed him was a little bit weak, though. Running up behind him while nobody noticed was the best the writers could do, with all of her talents?
And Brans plan was to zone out, scanning for absolutely nothing consequential?
Im hoping the final books will be significantly more fleshed out. Otherwise, Martins final novel is going to be about 175 pages.
yeah, the one that Martin was contributing on was cancelled apparently, but there still is the "Long Night" one that was 10,000 years in the past. That is apparently still going forward.prequel was cancelled I believe.Did you expect Bran to stop being cryptic and explain himself or maybe the Night King to do a soliloquy? Seriously, they're doing a prequel so I expect they'll answer a lot of your Night King questions in it.I mean it had moments and I get that most of it was a choice, but I actually thought the first 1/3rd was just a complete visual mess that was impossible to follow with any clarity. You see those closeups/quick cuts in poorly choreographed action films. I get they can only do so much with their budget, so turning everything into a grey blurry mess was maybe their only option, but I just thought it looked like trash.Weirdly I think that was the worst episode of the series. I can say that comfortably.
Interesting take. I thought it was awesome. There were a ton of little parts that I liked, including the Mormont girl and undead giant, the distortion caused by the weather, Melisandre's return/exit, the Night King bringing Tormund back to life, etc. I thought they kept my adrenaline going for a solid 80 minutes.
A couple fun fan moments, but actually pretty low stakes all things considered. The biggest thing frustrating me is that they never really do a good job explaining why Bran is there... what his purpose is... why they are trying to lure the Night King... what the Night King wants... what the purpose of any of that is... why are we even bothering with this... and then Arya out of nowhere is like "uh... ok? so... that's it?"
It just felt like really awful direction to me. Still fun, because Game of Thrones is always fun, but that was the worst episode of the show for me.
I thought they did quite well to maintain interest in a battle that lasted so long. I expected someone to take out the Night King and save the day ... err night but I was glad they didn't go with the obvious death by dragonfire or Jon being the hero and slaying him in a duel. Arya really was the best equipped to do so.
I think there were multiple shows in development. At least one prequel, set 5000 years ago, is going forward I think.
The quality of the show has been fading very quickly once they got past the source material. They take short cuts for cost and to artificially keep the episode count down, they don't set things up well, etc. I mean they easily could have ended the episode when the Night King approached Bran. It would have been a massive cliff hanger. They then could have spent 15 or 20 minutes at the beginning of the next episode filling in blanks, setting things up, etc. Season 7 was riddled with that nonsense and it really has detracted from the show. Hopefully they fill in some of the blanks in the next episode, but I've seen nothing from the production that says they will.It makes sense that Arya would be the one to kill the Night King. The way she killed him was a little bit weak, though. Running up behind him while nobody noticed was the best the writers could do, with all of her talents?
And Brans plan was to zone out, scanning for absolutely nothing consequential?
Im hoping the final books will be significantly more fleshed out. Otherwise, Martins final novel is going to be about 175 pages.
That attack was ... baffling. He's ringed by, what, 100 wights and a squadron of white walkers?
Also, we've just seen how fast his reflexes are, how strong he is. He sidestepped Theon and easily controlled his spear. Lightning fast, no hesitation or fumbling. He sensed Arya running up behind him when we could not, turned faster than we could see and grabbed her forearm in midair; he also absorbed her impact without staggering or apparently even moving. At this point he can see he's a few inches away from her dagger - the same dagger that a dozen characters on the show instantly recognized as Valyrian steel. When she drops the dagger it seems to fall forever. But it falls, goes into her free hand, and then she has time to stab him - and in all this time he doesn't bat the dagger away or yank her around off balance. Okayyyy. It's a cheat to establish his inhuman abilities to make his victory seem inevitable, but then take them away to move the plot forward.
This was about as close to deus ex machina as the series has ever been.
It makes sense that Arya would be the one to kill the Night King. The way she killed him was a little bit weak, though. Running up behind him while nobody noticed was the best the writers could do, with all of her talents?The way Arya killed him was about the only way it could have happened. She wasn't going to fight her way through the dead and the other white walkers. The Night King had frozen in place the dead so they weren't going to react to Arya. The other white walkers were clumped together near the Night King so they wouldn't have had a chance to stop her since she was coming from behind. However while the Night King is drawing his sword to kill Bran, they cut away and show one of the White Walkers looking to his right. I expect that was what alerted the Night King to Arya and allowed him to turn around and catch her.
And Brans plan was to zone out, scanning for absolutely nothing consequential?
Im hoping the final books will be significantly more fleshed out. Otherwise, Martins final novel is going to be about 175 pages.
They're doing the Long Night prequel aren't they?Yes. That's the one the one they are making the pilot for. Supposedly it is going to be filmed around now.
Probably trying to avoid committing to anything so they have the freedom to do whatever in that show sadly.
It makes sense that Arya would be the one to kill the Night King. The way she killed him was a little bit weak, though. Running up behind him while nobody noticed was the best the writers could do, with all of her talents?
And Brans plan was to zone out, scanning for absolutely nothing consequential?
Im hoping the final books will be significantly more fleshed out. Otherwise, Martins final novel is going to be about 175 pages.
It makes sense that Arya would be the one to kill the Night King. The way she killed him was a little bit weak, though. Running up behind him while nobody noticed was the best the writers could do, with all of her talents?
And Brans plan was to zone out, scanning for absolutely nothing consequential?
Im hoping the final books will be significantly more fleshed out. Otherwise, Martins final novel is going to be about 175 pages.
LOL
(https://scontent.fbed1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/59229797_2105771409508847_1117527516639133696_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent.fbed1-1.fna&oh=d887dafc32b82ec19ebda33dee56897e&oe=5D368C88)
Night King: "It was a bad shot"
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Wow, what lazy writing for the climax of this episode. It's basically lifted straight from The Avengers (2012) when the Chitauri start to overwhelm them in the final battle.
The Hulk gets swarmed by hundreds of Chitauri laser blasts and it looks like he's overwhelmed. Cap, Black Widow, and Hawkeye look like they're about to get overrun. The Chitauri keep pouring out of the wormhole in infinite numbers. All seems lost in several individual heroes situations until Iron Man guides a missile through the wormhole, destroying the Chitauri ship which then disables their thousands of fighters.
Exactly how GOT ended last night. About a dozen scenes of all the heroes starting to get overwhelmed. You think it's impossible for them to fight off the wights any more, and then Arya kills the Night King.
Come on GOT. Be original.
I agree. I was anticipating her having the face of Bran, to entice the Night King, then stab him. Only that would have required that Bran be dead first, and I guess they didn't want that to happen.
LOL
(https://scontent.fbed1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/59229797_2105771409508847_1117527516639133696_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent.fbed1-1.fna&oh=d887dafc32b82ec19ebda33dee56897e&oe=5D368C88)
Night King: "It was a bad shot"
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Yeah that is classic hive mentality. It has existed in nature for thousands of years. Ender's Game and countless other books, movies, tv shows, and video games (for example Starcraft) use that same trope when describing certain species.Wow, what lazy writing for the climax of this episode. It's basically lifted straight from The Avengers (2012) when the Chitauri start to overwhelm them in the final battle.
The Hulk gets swarmed by hundreds of Chitauri laser blasts and it looks like he's overwhelmed. Cap, Black Widow, and Hawkeye look like they're about to get overrun. The Chitauri keep pouring out of the wormhole in infinite numbers. All seems lost in several individual heroes situations until Iron Man guides a missile through the wormhole, destroying the Chitauri ship which then disables their thousands of fighters.
Exactly how GOT ended last night. About a dozen scenes of all the heroes starting to get overwhelmed. You think it's impossible for them to fight off the wights any more, and then Arya kills the Night King.
Come on GOT. Be original.
The Avengers didn't invent that either, the "kill the main guy/power source/mothership and the whole overwhelming threat immediately collapses" has been around forever. I agree it's generally a cheap out and an easy way of making a huge confrontation boil down to a single interaction. Would've at least liked to see it set up by some strategic killing of other White Walkers that destroyed pockets of the army.
Loved the beginning of the battle when the lighted swords go dark. I think the darkness created a sense of mystery and dread. I actually preferred this vs. a day battle scene. This let us imagine terrible things before they actually came.
what does droppin Endgame spoilers..*havent seen it yet* got to do with game of thrones first of all..smh
Loved the beginning of the battle when the lighted swords go dark. I think the darkness created a sense of mystery and dread. I actually preferred this vs. a day battle scene. This let us imagine terrible things before they actually came.
That was effective as theater, but as strategy it was baffling. They knew, more or less, that there was an enormous army of the dead out there, but they couldn't actually see it. How big was it? Nobody knew. Why would they send a small fraction of their army - and their only cavalry - off into the darkness to be cut down like that? As a military strategy, "split up so the enemy can fight you piecemeal" is a little unusual. Why not have them on the flanks, so that when the army of the dead engages the spearmen the cavalry rolls up from the sides?
If there are any dothraki left in Essos they should be p---ed at how their brothers were used up that way.
You mean exactly what Stannis did when he saved the Night's Watch from the Wildlings. I mean why should they use tried and true strategies that work, when it is so much more dramatic to have them all die.Loved the beginning of the battle when the lighted swords go dark. I think the darkness created a sense of mystery and dread. I actually preferred this vs. a day battle scene. This let us imagine terrible things before they actually came.
That was effective as theater, but as strategy it was baffling. They knew, more or less, that there was an enormous army of the dead out there, but they couldn't actually see it. How big was it? Nobody knew. Why would they send a small fraction of their army - and their only cavalry - off into the darkness to be cut down like that? As a military strategy, "split up so the enemy can fight you piecemeal" is a little unusual. Why not have them on the flanks, so that when the army of the dead engages the spearmen the cavalry rolls up from the sides?
If there are any dothraki left in Essos they should be p---ed at how their brothers were used up that way.
Yeah that is classic hive mentality. It has existed in nature for thousands of years. Ender's Game and countless other books, movies, tv shows, and video games (for example Starcraft) use that same trope when describing certain species.Wow, what lazy writing for the climax of this episode. It's basically lifted straight from The Avengers (2012) when the Chitauri start to overwhelm them in the final battle.
The Hulk gets swarmed by hundreds of Chitauri laser blasts and it looks like he's overwhelmed. Cap, Black Widow, and Hawkeye look like they're about to get overrun. The Chitauri keep pouring out of the wormhole in infinite numbers. All seems lost in several individual heroes situations until Iron Man guides a missile through the wormhole, destroying the Chitauri ship which then disables their thousands of fighters.
Exactly how GOT ended last night. About a dozen scenes of all the heroes starting to get overwhelmed. You think it's impossible for them to fight off the wights any more, and then Arya kills the Night King.
Come on GOT. Be original.
The Avengers didn't invent that either, the "kill the main guy/power source/mothership and the whole overwhelming threat immediately collapses" has been around forever. I agree it's generally a cheap out and an easy way of making a huge confrontation boil down to a single interaction. Would've at least liked to see it set up by some strategic killing of other White Walkers that destroyed pockets of the army.
Loved the beginning of the battle when the lighted swords go dark. I think the darkness created a sense of mystery and dread. I actually preferred this vs. a day battle scene. This let us imagine terrible things before they actually came.
That was effective as theater, but as strategy it was baffling. They knew, more or less, that there was an enormous army of the dead out there, but they couldn't actually see it. How big was it? Nobody knew. Why would they send a small fraction of their army - and their only cavalry - off into the darkness to be cut down like that? As a military strategy, "split up so the enemy can fight you piecemeal" is a little unusual. Why not have them on the flanks, so that when the army of the dead engages the spearmen the cavalry rolls up from the sides?
If there are any dothraki left in Essos they should be p---ed at how their brothers were used up that way.
Yeah I don't know anything about military strategy but I thought it was kind of dumb to send the Dothraki out into the darkness.
After all, the night is dark and full of terror.
Maybe I'm the only one, but honestly I was a little disappointed that it wasn't Jon that killed the Night King. I understand the idea that the show wanted to buck conventions by not making it the conventional hero who did it but not doing something just because its conventional doesn't actually make it a good decision. Jon was the one who confronted the white walkers first, he'd fought white walkers before, he had that stare down with the night king after Hard Home. It felt like that final confrontation was the end to his narrative ark, and then he didn't get it. Meanwhile Arya had almost no connection to that particular plot thread, I just didn't like that decision.Oh no I absolutely agree. I actually generally liked the episode until the last 10 minutes or so when they took a giant crap on the prior 7 seasons. Arya just doesn't make sense in the story telling at all (in addition to how she did it being nonsensical). And you can't just ignore prophecies like that. Prophecies in fantasy works matter and they just ignored the biggest one in the entire series. And it isn't like there wasn't talk of the prince who was promised in the show, because there was (it is more prevalent in the books but still in the show). Jon was pretty clearly the prince who was promised, but if you don't want to go so traditionally then they needed to do one of the other 2 people that made any sort of sense i.e. Dany or Jamie. Coming up with a hair brained scheme like that just takes away from the whole television series.
Its would be like all of star wars laying out the way it did, but then Luke gets lost in the death star on the way to confront Vader and Leia jumps out of a shadow to stab him last minute. That would also buck convention, it just wouldn't make any sense given the plot of the story.
I thought the idea was to ride through cutting and trampling a good part of the undead horde as they don't have pikes or trenches. There was just too many and they had Giants which was a massive stopper. A few got smart and turned back.Loved the beginning of the battle when the lighted swords go dark. I think the darkness created a sense of mystery and dread. I actually preferred this vs. a day battle scene. This let us imagine terrible things before they actually came.
That was effective as theater, but as strategy it was baffling. They knew, more or less, that there was an enormous army of the dead out there, but they couldn't actually see it. How big was it? Nobody knew. Why would they send a small fraction of their army - and their only cavalry - off into the darkness to be cut down like that? As a military strategy, "split up so the enemy can fight you piecemeal" is a little unusual. Why not have them on the flanks, so that when the army of the dead engages the spearmen the cavalry rolls up from the sides?
If there are any dothraki left in Essos they should be p---ed at how their brothers were used up that way.
Yeah I don't know anything about military strategy but I thought it was kind of dumb to send the Dothraki out into the darkness.
After all, the night is dark and full of terror.
I joked with my wife that they were probably worried about running low on provisions. Feeding a Dothraki hoard is no small task...
Those darn blue eyes... 8)Quotethe Night King bringing Tormund back to life,
Were we watching the same show? Cause Tormund did not die on the one I watched.
http://time.com/5578054/game-of-thrones-battle-of-winterfell-deaths/
The thing about the prophecy of R'hllor's religion is, as much as some people want to hang everything on those prophecies, the prophecies always seemed to be wrong.
Stannis was not the Prince Who was Promised. Neither was Jon, it turns out. The weapon of the Prince Who Was Promised that would kill the Night King didn't need to be bathed in the blood of a king.
Heck, even Melisandre's attempts to help in the Battle of Winterfell were useless. The Dothraki fire swords did nothing and neither did lighting the fire in the trenches.
About the only thing the God of Fire did was keep Dondarrion and Jon alive so that the Battle of Winterfell would be won.
Hate to say it but, all those in depth followers that based their idea on what would happen based on the God of Fire prophecies were swerved. Turns out the God of Fire was wrong about a ton of stuff.
The thing about the prophecy of R'hllor's religion is, as much as some people want to hang everything on those prophecies, the prophecies always seemed to be wrong.I think the show just crapped on the prophecy and didn't bother to follow it, not that the prophecy was wrong.
Stannis was not the Prince Who was Promised. Neither was Jon, it turns out. The weapon of the Prince Who Was Promised that would kill the Night King didn't need to be bathed in the blood of a king.
Heck, even Melisandre's attempts to help in the Battle of Winterfell were useless. The Dothraki fire swords did nothing and neither did lighting the fire in the trenches.
About the only thing the God of Fire did was keep Dondarrion and Jon alive so that the Battle of Winterfell would be won.
Hate to say it but, all those in depth followers that based their idea on what would happen based on the God of Fire prophecies were swerved. Turns out the God of Fire was wrong about a ton of stuff.
Maybe I'm the only one, but honestly I was a little disappointed that it wasn't Jon that killed the Night King. I understand the idea that the show wanted to buck conventions by not making it the conventional hero who did it but not doing something just because its conventional doesn't actually make it a good decision. Jon was the one who confronted the white walkers first, he'd fought white walkers before, he had that stare down with the night king after Hard Home. It felt like that final confrontation was the end to his narrative ark, and then he didn't get it. Meanwhile Arya had almost no connection to that particular plot thread, I just didn't like that decision.
Its would be like all of star wars laying out the way it did, but then Luke gets lost in the death star on the way to confront Vader and Leia jumps out of a shadow to stab him last minute. That would also buck convention, it just wouldn't make any sense given the plot of the story.
Yeah that is classic hive mentality. It has existed in nature for thousands of years. Ender's Game and countless other books, movies, tv shows, and video games (for example Starcraft) use that same trope when describing certain species.Wow, what lazy writing for the climax of this episode. It's basically lifted straight from The Avengers (2012) when the Chitauri start to overwhelm them in the final battle.
The Hulk gets swarmed by hundreds of Chitauri laser blasts and it looks like he's overwhelmed. Cap, Black Widow, and Hawkeye look like they're about to get overrun. The Chitauri keep pouring out of the wormhole in infinite numbers. All seems lost in several individual heroes situations until Iron Man guides a missile through the wormhole, destroying the Chitauri ship which then disables their thousands of fighters.
Exactly how GOT ended last night. About a dozen scenes of all the heroes starting to get overwhelmed. You think it's impossible for them to fight off the wights any more, and then Arya kills the Night King.
Come on GOT. Be original.
The Avengers didn't invent that either, the "kill the main guy/power source/mothership and the whole overwhelming threat immediately collapses" has been around forever. I agree it's generally a cheap out and an easy way of making a huge confrontation boil down to a single interaction. Would've at least liked to see it set up by some strategic killing of other White Walkers that destroyed pockets of the army.
Maybe I'm the only one, but honestly I was a little disappointed that it wasn't Jon that killed the Night King. I understand the idea that the show wanted to buck conventions by not making it the conventional hero who did it but not doing something just because its conventional doesn't actually make it a good decision. Jon was the one who confronted the white walkers first, he'd fought white walkers before, he had that stare down with the night king after Hard Home. It felt like that final confrontation was the end to his narrative ark, and then he didn't get it. Meanwhile Arya had almost no connection to that particular plot thread, I just didn't like that decision.
Its would be like all of star wars laying out the way it did, but then Luke gets lost in the death star on the way to confront Vader and Leia jumps out of a shadow to stab him last minute. That would also buck convention, it just wouldn't make any sense given the plot of the story.
I mostly agree, I don't mind that he didn't kill him just that his efforts were mostly useless. a more coherent way to do it would've been Jon, with some help, barely taking out the dragon then the Night King sending most of his subordinates to kill them, leaving an opening for Arya to sneak in close.
what does droppin Endgame spoilers..*havent seen it yet* got to do with game of thrones first of all..smh
(https://www.hellomagazine.com/imagenes/film/2019042572386/game-of-thrones-ser-jorah-most-important-character-theor/0-352-625/game-jorah-1-z.jpg)
the way he defended her..epic..
stop choppin and screwin this ep..i loved it..snow was the hero and could not save the day..loved it
what does droppin Endgame spoilers..*havent seen it yet* got to do with game of thrones first of all..smh
(https://www.hellomagazine.com/imagenes/film/2019042572386/game-of-thrones-ser-jorah-most-important-character-theor/0-352-625/game-jorah-1-z.jpg)
the way he defended her..epic..
stop choppin and screwin this ep..i loved it..snow was the hero and could not save the day..loved it
Totally agree. Great entertainment.
I do think some people get too far into this story (and other stories). Theories and opinions become more important than what actually happens in the show. I can't think of another show that has been overanalyzed more than this one.
Was it the best show in the series? No.
Was it garbage or trash? No.
Maybe I'm the only one, but honestly I was a little disappointed that it wasn't Jon that killed the Night King. I understand the idea that the show wanted to buck conventions by not making it the conventional hero who did it but not doing something just because its conventional doesn't actually make it a good decision. Jon was the one who confronted the white walkers first, he'd fought white walkers before, he had that stare down with the night king after Hard Home. It felt like that final confrontation was the end to his narrative ark, and then he didn't get it. Meanwhile Arya had almost no connection to that particular plot thread, I just didn't like that decision.
Its would be like all of star wars laying out the way it did, but then Luke gets lost in the death star on the way to confront Vader and Leia jumps out of a shadow to stab him last minute. That would also buck convention, it just wouldn't make any sense given the plot of the story.
I mostly agree, I don't mind that he didn't kill him just that his efforts were mostly useless. a more coherent way to do it would've been Jon, with some help, barely taking out the dragon then the Night King sending most of his subordinates to kill them, leaving an opening for Arya to sneak in close.
While he was not a total B.A. in the battle, I think it is worth noting the role he played in making sure they were ready. He was the one that convinced Danny and her forces to join the fight. He brought everyone else together before that. In that sense, he was instrumental in the victory.
I do think some people get too far into this story (and other stories). Theories and opinions become more important than what actually happens in the show. I can't think of another show that has been overanalyzed more than this one.
Just watched the episode, and wow, what a garbage ending that made no sense whatsoever, and basically just threw away 7 season worth of build-up. Rather would have let the Night King win than what actually happened.
It was an entertaining episode, but none of it made any sense. Then again, the whole show felt a bit like glorified fan fiction since they passed the books, anyway.I think it will be close to this ending but Martin will tell the story with more detail and lay out the reasonings for some of what many are complaining about.
I'm pretty sure this is not how things will play out in the books, not even close.
I thought the idea was to ride through cutting and trampling a good part of the undead horde as they don't have pikes or trenches. There was just too many and they had Giants which was a massive stopper. A few got smart and turned back.Loved the beginning of the battle when the lighted swords go dark. I think the darkness created a sense of mystery and dread. I actually preferred this vs. a day battle scene. This let us imagine terrible things before they actually came.
That was effective as theater, but as strategy it was baffling. They knew, more or less, that there was an enormous army of the dead out there, but they couldn't actually see it. How big was it? Nobody knew. Why would they send a small fraction of their army - and their only cavalry - off into the darkness to be cut down like that? As a military strategy, "split up so the enemy can fight you piecemeal" is a little unusual. Why not have them on the flanks, so that when the army of the dead engages the spearmen the cavalry rolls up from the sides?
If there are any dothraki left in Essos they should be p---ed at how their brothers were used up that way.
Yeah I don't know anything about military strategy but I thought it was kind of dumb to send the Dothraki out into the darkness.
After all, the night is dark and full of terror.
I joked with my wife that they were probably worried about running low on provisions. Feeding a Dothraki hoard is no small task...
So Bran became the 3 eyed Raven to be bait... The Night King is scared of Jon Snow... Arya kills the most feared and ancient character in the world Hy stabbing him in the back, despite him being surrounded by allies...Arya didn't stab the Night King in the back. The dead were frozen in place by the Night King. One of the White Walkers did spot her which alerted the Night King so he was able to turn and catch her. Then she did her trick of dropping the blade to her other hand and stabbed him in the chest.
So so disappointing, all that foreshadowing and prophecy for nothing. I'll have to read the books for a real payoff.
I thought the idea was to ride through cutting and trampling a good part of the undead horde as they don't have pikes or trenches. There was just too many and they had Giants which was a massive stopper. A few got smart and turned back.Loved the beginning of the battle when the lighted swords go dark. I think the darkness created a sense of mystery and dread. I actually preferred this vs. a day battle scene. This let us imagine terrible things before they actually came.
That was effective as theater, but as strategy it was baffling. They knew, more or less, that there was an enormous army of the dead out there, but they couldn't actually see it. How big was it? Nobody knew. Why would they send a small fraction of their army - and their only cavalry - off into the darkness to be cut down like that? As a military strategy, "split up so the enemy can fight you piecemeal" is a little unusual. Why not have them on the flanks, so that when the army of the dead engages the spearmen the cavalry rolls up from the sides?
If there are any dothraki left in Essos they should be p---ed at how their brothers were used up that way.
Yeah I don't know anything about military strategy but I thought it was kind of dumb to send the Dothraki out into the darkness.
After all, the night is dark and full of terror.
I joked with my wife that they were probably worried about running low on provisions. Feeding a Dothraki hoard is no small task...
Sending them off without any idea what was out there, and without any support from dragons, ground troops, or ranged weapons was pretty hard to figure. And that wasnt even the worst of it.
Heres a rundown.
https://www.wired.com/story/game-of-thrones-winterfell-battle-tactical-analysis/?fbclid=IwAR0CsqUo6FMY0FW54QQzqnN9qKzHk6Kj0_qkmyeV66voA0tpLHrY0uKtwyY
Just watched the episode, and wow, what a garbage ending that made no sense whatsoever, and basically just threw away 7 season worth of build-up. Rather would have let the Night King win than what actually happened.
I agree the Dothraki charge, especially at night, didn't make sense. They didn't even know Melisandre was going to show up and light their blades. It would have made more sense to have the dead hit the infantry troops first and then have the Dothraki attack from the flank. Or a better plan would have been to have the Dothraki in hiding. Let the dead pass and then have the Dothraki make a made dash to try to take out the White Walkers. Of course the winter weather that the Night King created would have thwarted the attempt but it would have been a better plan. If you were going to do a straight out charge where were the Knights of the Vale? Their Heavy Calvary would have a better chance to break through than the Dothraki.I thought the idea was to ride through cutting and trampling a good part of the undead horde as they don't have pikes or trenches. There was just too many and they had Giants which was a massive stopper. A few got smart and turned back.Loved the beginning of the battle when the lighted swords go dark. I think the darkness created a sense of mystery and dread. I actually preferred this vs. a day battle scene. This let us imagine terrible things before they actually came.
That was effective as theater, but as strategy it was baffling. They knew, more or less, that there was an enormous army of the dead out there, but they couldn't actually see it. How big was it? Nobody knew. Why would they send a small fraction of their army - and their only cavalry - off into the darkness to be cut down like that? As a military strategy, "split up so the enemy can fight you piecemeal" is a little unusual. Why not have them on the flanks, so that when the army of the dead engages the spearmen the cavalry rolls up from the sides?
If there are any dothraki left in Essos they should be p---ed at how their brothers were used up that way.
Yeah I don't know anything about military strategy but I thought it was kind of dumb to send the Dothraki out into the darkness.
After all, the night is dark and full of terror.
I joked with my wife that they were probably worried about running low on provisions. Feeding a Dothraki hoard is no small task...
Sending them off without any idea what was out there, and without any support from dragons, ground troops, or ranged weapons was pretty hard to figure. And that wasnt even the worst of it.
Heres a rundown.
https://www.wired.com/story/game-of-thrones-winterfell-battle-tactical-analysis/?fbclid=IwAR0CsqUo6FMY0FW54QQzqnN9qKzHk6Kj0_qkmyeV66voA0tpLHrY0uKtwyY
Yeah that made no sense to me. It was night and already hard to see. And you just sent them out there to face enemies they'd never seen before? I don't even think they saw the army while charging, it was only when they first collided with them that they realized "OH NO" and then of course they got clobbered.
I could understand maybe sending a small portion of them out there but the entire group? Wow. Tough way to go. Are there any more Dothraki left anywhere??
And will Jon Snow be deposed as King of the North? His tactics as military leader to let the cavalry (the Dothraki) start with a frontal attack on the army of the dead was again questionable to say the least. How does the fact that you're literally fighting the dead not become a factor in your strategy? How can you approach this as a normal battle? Didn't make any sense.
Heres a rundown.
https://www.wired.com/story/game-of-thrones-winterfell-battle-tactical-analysis/?fbclid=IwAR0CsqUo6FMY0FW54QQzqnN9qKzHk6Kj0_qkmyeV66voA0tpLHrY0uKtwyY
ok - just saw the episode and had the following thoughts:Rhaegal was injured by Viseron. That is why he wasn't there with Jon at the end of the episode. Presumably he flew off somewhere to avoid the dead.
- Thought for sure theres be some major characters killed but nope. Only person that died that provided a moment of sadness was Lady Mormont. Liked that kid. Puts todays youth to shame
- A lot of close escapes that were far too convenient.
- Filmed way too dark. Couldnt make out half of what was going on.
- Not following the point of Bran warging into the ravens unless it was solely for the purpose of luring in the Night King because he knew what Arya would do. Even with that, there was a lot of time warging that wasnt shown. What was up with that
- By the end of the battle, it looked like no one but the main characters were left standing yet the preview for next week showed a fair number of Unsullied left. Whered they come from?
- Preview of next week also showed both dragons, how is it only one made an effort to save Dany. Id think both were tied to her even if Jon is riding one.
- The Dothraki charge made no sense whatsoever. seems the sole purpose was to crush the spirit of the living when all the swordfire was extinguished.
Once they closed Winterfell after the retreat I know they had the trenches dug with pitch on the bottom to light but I couldn't understand why they didn't have pitch on the ramparts to pour on the undead and set afire. That's normal siege tactics for that time.QuoteAnd will Jon Snow be deposed as King of the North? His tactics as military leader to let the cavalry (the Dothraki) start with a frontal attack on the army of the dead was again questionable to say the least. How does the fact that you're literally fighting the dead not become a factor in your strategy? How can you approach this as a normal battle? Didn't make any sense.
The writer of the show and this director don't really understand tactics or the like. The Battle of the **** stuff was nonsense, this battle was nonsense. It is a show but the show suffers due to their profound ignorance to some degree. What they are good at is the Hollywood Stuff but as I said above, this crap is not Martin and the lack of him as a writer shows.QuoteHeres a rundown.
https://www.wired.com/story/game-of-thrones-winterfell-battle-tactical-analysis/?fbclid=IwAR0CsqUo6FMY0FW54QQzqnN9qKzHk6Kj0_qkmyeV66voA0tpLHrY0uKtwyY
Very shalllow tactical analysis and completely wrong in tactics.
If one studies history, cavalry was often on the wings of the army. None of the branches of the military really does great without support from the others. Cavalry needs support, as horse tire quickly and get blown fast in a battle. There are different types of cavalry too. Light Cavalry is great at harassing and pursuing a beaten enemy for example, the Dothraki don't wear armor so I would assume them to be light cavalry. Heavy Cavalry would be the Knights of Westeros and charge hose. Archers need the infantry to protect them. Infantry are strong but can be slow in battle and can hold off cavalry if discipline but will get devasted if caught unprepared and undisciplined by Cavalry. But they need each other to thrive on the battlefield.
A real tactical master would have had the Dothraki use dragonglass arrows to slow the dead as horse archers. In the books Khal Drogo has a bow, too. They would not make contact but shoot and move to weaken the dead horde thinning their ranks as they lead them back to castle staying outside of harm's way. The pike men would have set up behind the barrier with archers with the dragonglass arrows on the walls covering them with all the tough fighters who were out in front on the walls to repulse the dead. The artillery would have been in the castle or on the castle walls. Once the dead was compressed into the area of the barrier and pikes then the dragonfire would have been more deadly. Castle walls would have been much stronger with more men on the walls.
The show guys just want to entertain us, Jon as shown in the show and the battle of the ****s is incompetent save for the Battle of Castle Black which he did well when he took command but that was Martin.
The real value of cavalry is shock from the force of the attack and the psychological fear of being trampled. The latter would not have been a factor against the dead. But horse archers with dragonglass would have been deadly.
One has to realize that they were trying to create survival horror in this episode and are amateurs at history and tactics.
The Dothraki charge made no sense whatsoever. seems the sole purpose was to crush the spirit of the living when all the swordfire was extinguished.
Heres my off the wall prediction for the ending:
While I LOVED the episode last night, something felt a little unsatisfying about it this AM that we literally have been worried about the White Walkers since season 1 and finally the living battle them and they die without us even knowing what their purpose was. Were they just pure evil? I don't think so...I think that's what the writers want us to think, but GRRM is very political and supposedly the Walkers are supposed to be a metaphor for climate change. Let's remember, this isn't some devil that was created at the beginning of time...the children of the forest literally created the Night King to help them against the humans. GoT is a series which literally ties so many loose ends up - certainly the important ones - and I just can't accept that the White Walkers are done and gone without us ever knowing why they were marching south for the first time in 1000 years.
I think over the next couple of episodes some weird stuff is going to start happening - and it will be clear that the Lord of Light is behind it. In a song of ice and fire, there is no longer ice. So fire will reign. Perhaps crops are going to die, perhaps stone men are going to start showing up in Westeros, or perhaps more undeads like Beric are going to be around but in a bad way. By the end of this series, Bran is going to go back and figure out why the Children created the Night King...and determine that for the balance of humanity they need to be created again. First thought is Bran becomes the NK, but I think he's too important to the living for memories so he'll stay the 3 eyed raven. One of Dany and Jon will become the new NK (or NQ), and due to the prior NK's trait of being impervious to fire, my current money is on Dany (believe Jon burned his hand in season 1 or 2).
This is probably crazy and out there but just seems like it could be the crazy twist we've all been waiting for. Finally, I have a theory on who will be a co-conspirator in this NK or NQ creation - Lord Varys. Mel predicted he'd died in Westeros AND he is the most unabashed hater of the Lord of Light due to what happened to him. I can see him be the one pushing the dragon glass into Dany or Jon to make the NQ or NK and then die immediately after. A final sacrifice by Varys to save humanity slash combat his true enemy - the Lord of Light.
I still keep wanting to see the half dead Caitlyn Stark to show up. I found her to be one of the better story lines in the books.
Do the dragons have a limited supply of fire in their lungs?Or even spraying Viseryon. Like they bite him repeatedly instead of just using fire. Unless the dragon was immune to fire we never saw it.
Id have been way more proactive with spraying the flames down on the bad guys.
QuoteI still keep wanting to see the half dead Caitlyn Stark to show up. I found her to be one of the better story lines in the books.
Not me, I hated her in the books, and she has almost no redeeming qualities.
I am glad they only have a few episodes left, it has been a great show but the great build of the Nightking and a lame death, tells me they have jumped the shark.
She was an awful person when she was alive as well. She almost by herself led to the downfall of the Starks.QuoteI still keep wanting to see the half dead Caitlyn Stark to show up. I found her to be one of the better story lines in the books.
Not me, I hated her in the books, and she has almost no redeeming qualities.
I am glad they only have a few episodes left, it has been a great show but the great build of the Nightking and a lame death, tells me they have jumped the shark.
She wasn't super likable, but I was intrigued to see what her role would be I. Coming back from the ultimate obscurity.
QuoteI still keep wanting to see the half dead Caitlyn Stark to show up. I found her to be one of the better story lines in the books.
Not me, I hated her in the books, and she has almost no redeeming qualities.
I am glad they only have a few episodes left, it has been a great show but the great build of the Nightking and a lame death, tells me they have jumped the shark.
She wasn't super likable, but I was intrigued to see what her role would be I. Coming back from the ultimate obscurity.
was thinking the same thing during the dragon air battle and the ground battle --> you have 2 of the ultimate weapons that should decimate the opposition.Do the dragons have a limited supply of fire in their lungs?Or even spraying Viseryon. Like they bite him repeatedly instead of just using fire. Unless the dragon was immune to fire we never saw it.
Id have been way more proactive with spraying the flames down on the bad guys.
She was an awful person when she was alive as well. She almost by herself led to the downfall of the Starks.QuoteI still keep wanting to see the half dead Caitlyn Stark to show up. I found her to be one of the better story lines in the books.
Not me, I hated her in the books, and she has almost no redeeming qualities.
I am glad they only have a few episodes left, it has been a great show but the great build of the Nightking and a lame death, tells me they have jumped the shark.
She wasn't super likable, but I was intrigued to see what her role would be I. Coming back from the ultimate obscurity.
was thinking the same thing during the dragon air battle and the ground battle --> you have 2 of the ultimate weapons that should decimate the opposition.Do the dragons have a limited supply of fire in their lungs?Or even spraying Viseryon. Like they bite him repeatedly instead of just using fire. Unless the dragon was immune to fire we never saw it.
Id have been way more proactive with spraying the flames down on the bad guys.
- why not have both dragons attacking the Night King in the aerial battle and at least trying to fry him on the back of his dragon. sure, it wouldn't have mattered to him as we found out later but it might have taken out his dragon.
- if the idea was to have Dany light the trench with dragon fire (I mean really, how freaking stupid was it not to have someone just set a torch to it?), why not have either her or Jon light up the dead as they approached while keeping the other in reserve to watch out for the Night King? to add to that, why not have several trenches that could be set ablaze as the dead approached -- better yet set them up so that it funnels the dead into a central killing zone for the dragons/archers/soldiers? horrible battle tactics the entire show.
Heres my off the wall prediction for the ending:Just a point to make about the bolded part: Jon snow is still ice as he's the son of Lyanna Stark, who was a northerner. George Martin also likes to play with words. That said, if you remove the letter "g" from the book titles it would read "A son of ice and fire". That would equal Jon Snow, though we all know his real name by now.
While I LOVED the episode last night, something felt a little unsatisfying about it this AM that we literally have been worried about the White Walkers since season 1 and finally the living battle them and they die without us even knowing what their purpose was. Were they just pure evil? I don't think so...I think that's what the writers want us to think, but GRRM is very political and supposedly the Walkers are supposed to be a metaphor for climate change. Let's remember, this isn't some devil that was created at the beginning of time...the children of the forest literally created the Night King to help them against the humans. GoT is a series which literally ties so many loose ends up - certainly the important ones - and I just can't accept that the White Walkers are done and gone without us ever knowing why they were marching south for the first time in 1000 years.
I think over the next couple of episodes some weird stuff is going to start happening - and it will be clear that the Lord of Light is behind it. In a song of ice and fire, there is no longer ice. So fire will reign. Perhaps crops are going to die, perhaps stone men are going to start showing up in Westeros, or perhaps more undeads like Beric are going to be around but in a bad way. By the end of this series, Bran is going to go back and figure out why the Children created the Night King...and determine that for the balance of humanity they need to be created again. First thought is Bran becomes the NK, but I think he's too important to the living for memories so he'll stay the 3 eyed raven. One of Dany and Jon will become the new NK (or NQ), and due to the prior NK's trait of being impervious to fire, my current money is on Dany (believe Jon burned his hand in season 1 or 2).
This is probably crazy and out there but just seems like it could be the crazy twist we've all been waiting for. Finally, I have a theory on who will be a co-conspirator in this NK or NQ creation - Lord Varys. Mel predicted he'd died in Westeros AND he is the most unabashed hater of the Lord of Light due to what happened to him. I can see him be the one pushing the dragon glass into Dany or Jon to make the NQ or NK and then die immediately after. A final sacrifice by Varys to save humanity slash combat his true enemy - the Lord of Light.
During all the darkness of the episode I missed the ice spiders and Hodor. Did anyone see either?
He clearly meant Ice as in the Night King and Fire as in the Red God. The theory being with the Night King killed order and balance in the universe is off, which will cause all sorts of problems. I don't buy that theory at all. Just doesn't fit with the narrative of the books or the show at all.Heres my off the wall prediction for the ending:Just a point to make about the bolded part: Jon snow is still ice as he's the son of Lyanna Stark, who was a northerner. George Martin also likes to play with words. That said, if you remove the letter "g" from the book titles it would read "A son of ice and fire". That would equal Jon Snow, though we all know his real name by now.
While I LOVED the episode last night, something felt a little unsatisfying about it this AM that we literally have been worried about the White Walkers since season 1 and finally the living battle them and they die without us even knowing what their purpose was. Were they just pure evil? I don't think so...I think that's what the writers want us to think, but GRRM is very political and supposedly the Walkers are supposed to be a metaphor for climate change. Let's remember, this isn't some devil that was created at the beginning of time...the children of the forest literally created the Night King to help them against the humans. GoT is a series which literally ties so many loose ends up - certainly the important ones - and I just can't accept that the White Walkers are done and gone without us ever knowing why they were marching south for the first time in 1000 years.
I think over the next couple of episodes some weird stuff is going to start happening - and it will be clear that the Lord of Light is behind it. In a song of ice and fire, there is no longer ice. So fire will reign. Perhaps crops are going to die, perhaps stone men are going to start showing up in Westeros, or perhaps more undeads like Beric are going to be around but in a bad way. By the end of this series, Bran is going to go back and figure out why the Children created the Night King...and determine that for the balance of humanity they need to be created again. First thought is Bran becomes the NK, but I think he's too important to the living for memories so he'll stay the 3 eyed raven. One of Dany and Jon will become the new NK (or NQ), and due to the prior NK's trait of being impervious to fire, my current money is on Dany (believe Jon burned his hand in season 1 or 2).
This is probably crazy and out there but just seems like it could be the crazy twist we've all been waiting for. Finally, I have a theory on who will be a co-conspirator in this NK or NQ creation - Lord Varys. Mel predicted he'd died in Westeros AND he is the most unabashed hater of the Lord of Light due to what happened to him. I can see him be the one pushing the dragon glass into Dany or Jon to make the NQ or NK and then die immediately after. A final sacrifice by Varys to save humanity slash combat his true enemy - the Lord of Light.
Martin loves double meanings. I think the title of the book series probably has that double meaning. Ice and Fire could be the Night King and R'hllor but it could also be the story of a person with Stark and Targareon blood. Or it could be both. If I were you guys I wouldn't argue that it is clearly one or the other because it's probably is both.He clearly meant Ice as in the Night King and Fire as in the Red God. The theory being with the Night King killed order and balance in the universe is off, which will cause all sorts of problems. I don't buy that theory at all. Just doesn't fit with the narrative of the books or the show at all.Heres my off the wall prediction for the ending:Just a point to make about the bolded part: Jon snow is still ice as he's the son of Lyanna Stark, who was a northerner. George Martin also likes to play with words. That said, if you remove the letter "g" from the book titles it would read "A son of ice and fire". That would equal Jon Snow, though we all know his real name by now.
While I LOVED the episode last night, something felt a little unsatisfying about it this AM that we literally have been worried about the White Walkers since season 1 and finally the living battle them and they die without us even knowing what their purpose was. Were they just pure evil? I don't think so...I think that's what the writers want us to think, but GRRM is very political and supposedly the Walkers are supposed to be a metaphor for climate change. Let's remember, this isn't some devil that was created at the beginning of time...the children of the forest literally created the Night King to help them against the humans. GoT is a series which literally ties so many loose ends up - certainly the important ones - and I just can't accept that the White Walkers are done and gone without us ever knowing why they were marching south for the first time in 1000 years.
I think over the next couple of episodes some weird stuff is going to start happening - and it will be clear that the Lord of Light is behind it. In a song of ice and fire, there is no longer ice. So fire will reign. Perhaps crops are going to die, perhaps stone men are going to start showing up in Westeros, or perhaps more undeads like Beric are going to be around but in a bad way. By the end of this series, Bran is going to go back and figure out why the Children created the Night King...and determine that for the balance of humanity they need to be created again. First thought is Bran becomes the NK, but I think he's too important to the living for memories so he'll stay the 3 eyed raven. One of Dany and Jon will become the new NK (or NQ), and due to the prior NK's trait of being impervious to fire, my current money is on Dany (believe Jon burned his hand in season 1 or 2).
This is probably crazy and out there but just seems like it could be the crazy twist we've all been waiting for. Finally, I have a theory on who will be a co-conspirator in this NK or NQ creation - Lord Varys. Mel predicted he'd died in Westeros AND he is the most unabashed hater of the Lord of Light due to what happened to him. I can see him be the one pushing the dragon glass into Dany or Jon to make the NQ or NK and then die immediately after. A final sacrifice by Varys to save humanity slash combat his true enemy - the Lord of Light.
Heres my off the wall prediction for the ending:Just a point to make about the bolded part: Jon snow is still ice as he's the son of Lyanna Stark, who was a northerner. George Martin also likes to play with words. That said, if you remove the letter "g" from the book titles it would read "A son of ice and fire". That would equal Jon Snow, though we all know his real name by now.
While I LOVED the episode last night, something felt a little unsatisfying about it this AM that we literally have been worried about the White Walkers since season 1 and finally the living battle them and they die without us even knowing what their purpose was. Were they just pure evil? I don't think so...I think that's what the writers want us to think, but GRRM is very political and supposedly the Walkers are supposed to be a metaphor for climate change. Let's remember, this isn't some devil that was created at the beginning of time...the children of the forest literally created the Night King to help them against the humans. GoT is a series which literally ties so many loose ends up - certainly the important ones - and I just can't accept that the White Walkers are done and gone without us ever knowing why they were marching south for the first time in 1000 years.
I think over the next couple of episodes some weird stuff is going to start happening - and it will be clear that the Lord of Light is behind it. In a song of ice and fire, there is no longer ice. So fire will reign. Perhaps crops are going to die, perhaps stone men are going to start showing up in Westeros, or perhaps more undeads like Beric are going to be around but in a bad way. By the end of this series, Bran is going to go back and figure out why the Children created the Night King...and determine that for the balance of humanity they need to be created again. First thought is Bran becomes the NK, but I think he's too important to the living for memories so he'll stay the 3 eyed raven. One of Dany and Jon will become the new NK (or NQ), and due to the prior NK's trait of being impervious to fire, my current money is on Dany (believe Jon burned his hand in season 1 or 2).
This is probably crazy and out there but just seems like it could be the crazy twist we've all been waiting for. Finally, I have a theory on who will be a co-conspirator in this NK or NQ creation - Lord Varys. Mel predicted he'd died in Westeros AND he is the most unabashed hater of the Lord of Light due to what happened to him. I can see him be the one pushing the dragon glass into Dany or Jon to make the NQ or NK and then die immediately after. A final sacrifice by Varys to save humanity slash combat his true enemy - the Lord of Light.
Martin loves double meanings. I think the title of the book series probably has that double meaning. Ice and Fire could be the Night King and R'hllor but it could also be the story of a person with Stark and Targareon blood. Or it could be both. If I were you guys I wouldn't argue that it is clearly one or the other because it's probably is both.He clearly meant Ice as in the Night King and Fire as in the Red God. The theory being with the Night King killed order and balance in the universe is off, which will cause all sorts of problems. I don't buy that theory at all. Just doesn't fit with the narrative of the books or the show at all.Heres my off the wall prediction for the ending:Just a point to make about the bolded part: Jon snow is still ice as he's the son of Lyanna Stark, who was a northerner. George Martin also likes to play with words. That said, if you remove the letter "g" from the book titles it would read "A son of ice and fire". That would equal Jon Snow, though we all know his real name by now.
While I LOVED the episode last night, something felt a little unsatisfying about it this AM that we literally have been worried about the White Walkers since season 1 and finally the living battle them and they die without us even knowing what their purpose was. Were they just pure evil? I don't think so...I think that's what the writers want us to think, but GRRM is very political and supposedly the Walkers are supposed to be a metaphor for climate change. Let's remember, this isn't some devil that was created at the beginning of time...the children of the forest literally created the Night King to help them against the humans. GoT is a series which literally ties so many loose ends up - certainly the important ones - and I just can't accept that the White Walkers are done and gone without us ever knowing why they were marching south for the first time in 1000 years.
I think over the next couple of episodes some weird stuff is going to start happening - and it will be clear that the Lord of Light is behind it. In a song of ice and fire, there is no longer ice. So fire will reign. Perhaps crops are going to die, perhaps stone men are going to start showing up in Westeros, or perhaps more undeads like Beric are going to be around but in a bad way. By the end of this series, Bran is going to go back and figure out why the Children created the Night King...and determine that for the balance of humanity they need to be created again. First thought is Bran becomes the NK, but I think he's too important to the living for memories so he'll stay the 3 eyed raven. One of Dany and Jon will become the new NK (or NQ), and due to the prior NK's trait of being impervious to fire, my current money is on Dany (believe Jon burned his hand in season 1 or 2).
This is probably crazy and out there but just seems like it could be the crazy twist we've all been waiting for. Finally, I have a theory on who will be a co-conspirator in this NK or NQ creation - Lord Varys. Mel predicted he'd died in Westeros AND he is the most unabashed hater of the Lord of Light due to what happened to him. I can see him be the one pushing the dragon glass into Dany or Jon to make the NQ or NK and then die immediately after. A final sacrifice by Varys to save humanity slash combat his true enemy - the Lord of Light.
Are we rooting for the NK now... Because its seems those dissapointed by his death at the hands of Arya seems to feel so.
Just a point to make about the bolded part: Jon snow is still ice as he's the son of Lyanna Stark, who was a northerner. George Martin also likes to play with words. That said, if you remove the letter "g" from the book titles it would read "A son of ice and fire". That would equal Jon Snow, though we all know his real name by now.
never made that connection before, brilliant theory.
Jon is a man of the north, and was resurrected by the god of light.
And we know who his mother and father are, so the whole son of fire and ice has a double meaning in reference to him.
Any fans disappointed in no Reeds or Dawn sword in the long night battle? Felt there was so much missing that should have been there. Even after rewatching I still think they missed a lot of opportunities. Like if they cut out the Arya library stuff they could have introduced those elements before the battle.It's not like they were held to a time limit on the length of the episode as that went 80 minutes. If they wanted to introduce any other stuff to the story they could have easily done so without needing to cut that Arya scene.
I'm pretty sure his point was more that they didn't need the Arya in the library scene as it added almost nothing to the story. IMO, that has been a pretty consistent problem with the show once they advanced past the books. There is a lot of useless stuff, but yet they don't have stuff that should be in there or that would help fill in tremendous gaps and holes. The show really has gone down hill and they absolutely took a crap on the first 6 seasons in the last 10 minutes of the last episode.Any fans disappointed in no Reeds or Dawn sword in the long night battle? Felt there was so much missing that should have been there. Even after rewatching I still think they missed a lot of opportunities. Like if they cut out the Arya library stuff they could have introduced those elements before the battle.It's not like they were held to a time limit on the length of the episode as that went 80 minutes. If they wanted to introduce any other stuff to the story they could have easily done so without needing to cut that Arya scene.
They didn't add the stuff you would like to have seen because they didn't think it added anything to the story.
Exactly. TP for understanding where I coming from.I'm pretty sure his point was more that they didn't need the Arya in the library scene as it added almost nothing to the story. IMO, that has been a pretty consistent problem with the show once they advanced past the books. There is a lot of useless stuff, but yet they don't have stuff that should be in there or that would help fill in tremendous gaps and holes. The show really has gone down hill and they absolutely took a crap on the first 6 seasons in the last 10 minutes of the last episode.Any fans disappointed in no Reeds or Dawn sword in the long night battle? Felt there was so much missing that should have been there. Even after rewatching I still think they missed a lot of opportunities. Like if they cut out the Arya library stuff they could have introduced those elements before the battle.It's not like they were held to a time limit on the length of the episode as that went 80 minutes. If they wanted to introduce any other stuff to the story they could have easily done so without needing to cut that Arya scene.
They didn't add the stuff you would like to have seen because they didn't think it added anything to the story.
I honestly feel like just dropping the show altogether. I've had absolutely no interest in Cersei as a character or as a villain ever since we moved passed the books. She being the big villain to end the show feels like the absolute antithesis of everything we've learned about this world prior. Plus I can't think of a major character whose story arc hasn't been butchered in one way or another.Feel kind of worried to watch the rest of the season after seeing the last episode. It's as bad as the Sansa and Arya stuff from last season. Just bad writing/story makes me cringe thinking what's to come.
I'm pretty sure his point was more that they didn't need the Arya in the library scene as it added almost nothing to the story. IMO, that has been a pretty consistent problem with the show once they advanced past the books. There is a lot of useless stuff, but yet they don't have stuff that should be in there or that would help fill in tremendous gaps and holes. The show really has gone down hill and they absolutely took a crap on the first 6 seasons in the last 10 minutes of the last episode.Any fans disappointed in no Reeds or Dawn sword in the long night battle? Felt there was so much missing that should have been there. Even after rewatching I still think they missed a lot of opportunities. Like if they cut out the Arya library stuff they could have introduced those elements before the battle.It's not like they were held to a time limit on the length of the episode as that went 80 minutes. If they wanted to introduce any other stuff to the story they could have easily done so without needing to cut that Arya scene.
They didn't add the stuff you would like to have seen because they didn't think it added anything to the story.
I'm pretty sure his point was more that they didn't need the Arya in the library scene as it added almost nothing to the story. IMO, that has been a pretty consistent problem with the show once they advanced past the books. There is a lot of useless stuff, but yet they don't have stuff that should be in there or that would help fill in tremendous gaps and holes. The show really has gone down hill and they absolutely took a crap on the first 6 seasons in the last 10 minutes of the last episode.Any fans disappointed in no Reeds or Dawn sword in the long night battle? Felt there was so much missing that should have been there. Even after rewatching I still think they missed a lot of opportunities. Like if they cut out the Arya library stuff they could have introduced those elements before the battle.It's not like they were held to a time limit on the length of the episode as that went 80 minutes. If they wanted to introduce any other stuff to the story they could have easily done so without needing to cut that Arya scene.
They didn't add the stuff you would like to have seen because they didn't think it added anything to the story.
The point of the library stuff was to change pace from the huge battle to focus tension around a single major character and to prep the viewer for her sneak attack on the Night King. Cramming in more mythology or references only a book-reader would know about only makes the overall story denser with no real added narrative value. They've made some dumb decisions on the show but trimming down the lore and storylines in favor of more character beats hasn't been one of them.
I'm pretty sure his point was more that they didn't need the Arya in the library scene as it added almost nothing to the story. IMO, that has been a pretty consistent problem with the show once they advanced past the books. There is a lot of useless stuff, but yet they don't have stuff that should be in there or that would help fill in tremendous gaps and holes. The show really has gone down hill and they absolutely took a crap on the first 6 seasons in the last 10 minutes of the last episode.Any fans disappointed in no Reeds or Dawn sword in the long night battle? Felt there was so much missing that should have been there. Even after rewatching I still think they missed a lot of opportunities. Like if they cut out the Arya library stuff they could have introduced those elements before the battle.It's not like they were held to a time limit on the length of the episode as that went 80 minutes. If they wanted to introduce any other stuff to the story they could have easily done so without needing to cut that Arya scene.
They didn't add the stuff you would like to have seen because they didn't think it added anything to the story.
The point of the library stuff was to change pace from the huge battle to focus tension around a single major character and to prep the viewer for her sneak attack on the Night King. Cramming in more mythology or references only a book-reader would know about only makes the overall story denser with no real added narrative value. They've made some dumb decisions on the show but trimming down the lore and storylines in favor of more character beats hasn't been one of them.
I disagree with the choice. Arya had seasons of prepping she didn't need another scene, the library did nothing. Also they had change of pace that had tension and drama that was much better already with Theon and Bran left in the Gods wood. That was good because we saw the redemption of Theon and finish to his story arch.
Also it's not adding lore it's building off what the show already introduced in Reeds being so involved already with the fight and then not one being there in the end and then Stanis lightbringer/dawn there at Jon's birth. It's bring that to a close.
I agree with you. The Arya library scene was a nice change of pace and it led to Melisandre kick starting Arya to kill the Night King. As for the Reeds, Howland Reed might have a role to play now since he should be able to confirm Jon's origin.I'm pretty sure his point was more that they didn't need the Arya in the library scene as it added almost nothing to the story. IMO, that has been a pretty consistent problem with the show once they advanced past the books. There is a lot of useless stuff, but yet they don't have stuff that should be in there or that would help fill in tremendous gaps and holes. The show really has gone down hill and they absolutely took a crap on the first 6 seasons in the last 10 minutes of the last episode.Any fans disappointed in no Reeds or Dawn sword in the long night battle? Felt there was so much missing that should have been there. Even after rewatching I still think they missed a lot of opportunities. Like if they cut out the Arya library stuff they could have introduced those elements before the battle.It's not like they were held to a time limit on the length of the episode as that went 80 minutes. If they wanted to introduce any other stuff to the story they could have easily done so without needing to cut that Arya scene.
They didn't add the stuff you would like to have seen because they didn't think it added anything to the story.
The point of the library stuff was to change pace from the huge battle to focus tension around a single major character and to prep the viewer for her sneak attack on the Night King. Cramming in more mythology or references only a book-reader would know about only makes the overall story denser with no real added narrative value. They've made some dumb decisions on the show but trimming down the lore and storylines in favor of more character beats hasn't been one of them.
I disagree with the choice. Arya had seasons of prepping she didn't need another scene, the library did nothing. Also they had change of pace that had tension and drama that was much better already with Theon and Bran left in the Gods wood. That was good because we saw the redemption of Theon and finish to his story arch.
Also it's not adding lore it's building off what the show already introduced in Reeds being so involved already with the fight and then not one being there in the end and then Stanis lightbringer/dawn there at Jon's birth. It's bring that to a close.
No worries on disagreement, I enjoyed it the first time through even while mostly disappointed with the overall episode, but to each their own on liking or not. Alfie Allen did an excellent job with Theon's end just as he did for about all of the series, for sure.
But the Reeds have barely been in the show - Jojen's dead, Meera helped Bran travel then had no more purpose, Howland only in flashback. Barely mentioned outside of that. Dawn I believe is never even named in the flashback where Dayne has 2 swords, while Lightbringer comes up exactly once and is never seen again, and the whole point of it in the books is that it's a fraud. They'd have had to shoehorn them in there really late in the game and we don't even know from the books if any of the sword stuff is going to actually matter. Hell, might as well just say the dagger was the true Lightbringer.
There were better ways to do change of pace though. The Sansa and Tyrion scene for example was nice. They could have added more in the Gods Wood. They also could have cut out a few of the battle scenes. For what they've actually shown in 190 minutes this season easily could have been 120 minutes and they could have then added stuff that filled in gaps, advanced the story better, etc. It was a huge problem last season as well.I'm pretty sure his point was more that they didn't need the Arya in the library scene as it added almost nothing to the story. IMO, that has been a pretty consistent problem with the show once they advanced past the books. There is a lot of useless stuff, but yet they don't have stuff that should be in there or that would help fill in tremendous gaps and holes. The show really has gone down hill and they absolutely took a crap on the first 6 seasons in the last 10 minutes of the last episode.Any fans disappointed in no Reeds or Dawn sword in the long night battle? Felt there was so much missing that should have been there. Even after rewatching I still think they missed a lot of opportunities. Like if they cut out the Arya library stuff they could have introduced those elements before the battle.It's not like they were held to a time limit on the length of the episode as that went 80 minutes. If they wanted to introduce any other stuff to the story they could have easily done so without needing to cut that Arya scene.
They didn't add the stuff you would like to have seen because they didn't think it added anything to the story.
The point of the library stuff was to change pace from the huge battle to focus tension around a single major character and to prep the viewer for her sneak attack on the Night King. Cramming in more mythology or references only a book-reader would know about only makes the overall story denser with no real added narrative value. They've made some dumb decisions on the show but trimming down the lore and storylines in favor of more character beats hasn't been one of them.
Moranis, if it's so bad, and has been for years, why do you continue to watch it?There were better ways to do change of pace though. The Sansa and Tyrion scene for example was nice. They could have added more in the Gods Wood. They also could have cut out a few of the battle scenes. For what they've actually shown in 190 minutes this season easily could have been 120 minutes and they could have then added stuff that filled in gaps, advanced the story better, etc. It was a huge problem last season as well.I'm pretty sure his point was more that they didn't need the Arya in the library scene as it added almost nothing to the story. IMO, that has been a pretty consistent problem with the show once they advanced past the books. There is a lot of useless stuff, but yet they don't have stuff that should be in there or that would help fill in tremendous gaps and holes. The show really has gone down hill and they absolutely took a crap on the first 6 seasons in the last 10 minutes of the last episode.Any fans disappointed in no Reeds or Dawn sword in the long night battle? Felt there was so much missing that should have been there. Even after rewatching I still think they missed a lot of opportunities. Like if they cut out the Arya library stuff they could have introduced those elements before the battle.It's not like they were held to a time limit on the length of the episode as that went 80 minutes. If they wanted to introduce any other stuff to the story they could have easily done so without needing to cut that Arya scene.
They didn't add the stuff you would like to have seen because they didn't think it added anything to the story.
The point of the library stuff was to change pace from the huge battle to focus tension around a single major character and to prep the viewer for her sneak attack on the Night King. Cramming in more mythology or references only a book-reader would know about only makes the overall story denser with no real added narrative value. They've made some dumb decisions on the show but trimming down the lore and storylines in favor of more character beats hasn't been one of them.
And let's be clear this is a fantasy series. The show has gone heavily away from what makes a great fantasy series since they've passed the books and the quality of the show has suffered significantly.
What's made the show great is the characters. The fantasy element is relatively small. The dragons being the most important. The Night King and White Walkers weren't even known to most of the characters until season 7.There were better ways to do change of pace though. The Sansa and Tyrion scene for example was nice. They could have added more in the Gods Wood. They also could have cut out a few of the battle scenes. For what they've actually shown in 190 minutes this season easily could have been 120 minutes and they could have then added stuff that filled in gaps, advanced the story better, etc. It was a huge problem last season as well.I'm pretty sure his point was more that they didn't need the Arya in the library scene as it added almost nothing to the story. IMO, that has been a pretty consistent problem with the show once they advanced past the books. There is a lot of useless stuff, but yet they don't have stuff that should be in there or that would help fill in tremendous gaps and holes. The show really has gone down hill and they absolutely took a crap on the first 6 seasons in the last 10 minutes of the last episode.Any fans disappointed in no Reeds or Dawn sword in the long night battle? Felt there was so much missing that should have been there. Even after rewatching I still think they missed a lot of opportunities. Like if they cut out the Arya library stuff they could have introduced those elements before the battle.It's not like they were held to a time limit on the length of the episode as that went 80 minutes. If they wanted to introduce any other stuff to the story they could have easily done so without needing to cut that Arya scene.
They didn't add the stuff you would like to have seen because they didn't think it added anything to the story.
The point of the library stuff was to change pace from the huge battle to focus tension around a single major character and to prep the viewer for her sneak attack on the Night King. Cramming in more mythology or references only a book-reader would know about only makes the overall story denser with no real added narrative value. They've made some dumb decisions on the show but trimming down the lore and storylines in favor of more character beats hasn't been one of them.
And let's be clear this is a fantasy series. The show has gone heavily away from what makes a great fantasy series since they've passed the books and the quality of the show has suffered significantly.
What's made the show great is the characters. The fantasy element is relatively small. The dragons being the most important. The Night King and White Walkers weren't even known to most of the characters until season 7.There were better ways to do change of pace though. The Sansa and Tyrion scene for example was nice. They could have added more in the Gods Wood. They also could have cut out a few of the battle scenes. For what they've actually shown in 190 minutes this season easily could have been 120 minutes and they could have then added stuff that filled in gaps, advanced the story better, etc. It was a huge problem last season as well.I'm pretty sure his point was more that they didn't need the Arya in the library scene as it added almost nothing to the story. IMO, that has been a pretty consistent problem with the show once they advanced past the books. There is a lot of useless stuff, but yet they don't have stuff that should be in there or that would help fill in tremendous gaps and holes. The show really has gone down hill and they absolutely took a crap on the first 6 seasons in the last 10 minutes of the last episode.Any fans disappointed in no Reeds or Dawn sword in the long night battle? Felt there was so much missing that should have been there. Even after rewatching I still think they missed a lot of opportunities. Like if they cut out the Arya library stuff they could have introduced those elements before the battle.It's not like they were held to a time limit on the length of the episode as that went 80 minutes. If they wanted to introduce any other stuff to the story they could have easily done so without needing to cut that Arya scene.
They didn't add the stuff you would like to have seen because they didn't think it added anything to the story.
The point of the library stuff was to change pace from the huge battle to focus tension around a single major character and to prep the viewer for her sneak attack on the Night King. Cramming in more mythology or references only a book-reader would know about only makes the overall story denser with no real added narrative value. They've made some dumb decisions on the show but trimming down the lore and storylines in favor of more character beats hasn't been one of them.
And let's be clear this is a fantasy series. The show has gone heavily away from what makes a great fantasy series since they've passed the books and the quality of the show has suffered significantly.
The time crunch the past two seasons has definitely been a problem. Only three episodes left and there is still a lot to deal with. I expect they'll short shrift Jon being a Targaryen. There could be a lot of interesting reactions and intrigue around that but doesn't seem like there is enough time to do it justice.What's made the show great is the characters. The fantasy element is relatively small. The dragons being the most important. The Night King and White Walkers weren't even known to most of the characters until season 7.There were better ways to do change of pace though. The Sansa and Tyrion scene for example was nice. They could have added more in the Gods Wood. They also could have cut out a few of the battle scenes. For what they've actually shown in 190 minutes this season easily could have been 120 minutes and they could have then added stuff that filled in gaps, advanced the story better, etc. It was a huge problem last season as well.I'm pretty sure his point was more that they didn't need the Arya in the library scene as it added almost nothing to the story. IMO, that has been a pretty consistent problem with the show once they advanced past the books. There is a lot of useless stuff, but yet they don't have stuff that should be in there or that would help fill in tremendous gaps and holes. The show really has gone down hill and they absolutely took a crap on the first 6 seasons in the last 10 minutes of the last episode.Any fans disappointed in no Reeds or Dawn sword in the long night battle? Felt there was so much missing that should have been there. Even after rewatching I still think they missed a lot of opportunities. Like if they cut out the Arya library stuff they could have introduced those elements before the battle.It's not like they were held to a time limit on the length of the episode as that went 80 minutes. If they wanted to introduce any other stuff to the story they could have easily done so without needing to cut that Arya scene.
They didn't add the stuff you would like to have seen because they didn't think it added anything to the story.
The point of the library stuff was to change pace from the huge battle to focus tension around a single major character and to prep the viewer for her sneak attack on the Night King. Cramming in more mythology or references only a book-reader would know about only makes the overall story denser with no real added narrative value. They've made some dumb decisions on the show but trimming down the lore and storylines in favor of more character beats hasn't been one of them.
And let's be clear this is a fantasy series. The show has gone heavily away from what makes a great fantasy series since they've passed the books and the quality of the show has suffered significantly.
Yeah I've dumped on the last couple seasons plenty but the problems ain't about not enough tertiary characters and One True Magic Sword That Will Fix Everything talk. They're much more about plot armor protecting characters from increasingly bad decisions and rushing through too much story. The character beats are a step in the right direction.
I know for me it's cause I'm a fan. Much in the way if C's are bad I keep watching looking for improvement and hope things turn around.Moranis, if it's so bad, and has been for years, why do you continue to watch it?There were better ways to do change of pace though. The Sansa and Tyrion scene for example was nice. They could have added more in the Gods Wood. They also could have cut out a few of the battle scenes. For what they've actually shown in 190 minutes this season easily could have been 120 minutes and they could have then added stuff that filled in gaps, advanced the story better, etc. It was a huge problem last season as well.I'm pretty sure his point was more that they didn't need the Arya in the library scene as it added almost nothing to the story. IMO, that has been a pretty consistent problem with the show once they advanced past the books. There is a lot of useless stuff, but yet they don't have stuff that should be in there or that would help fill in tremendous gaps and holes. The show really has gone down hill and they absolutely took a crap on the first 6 seasons in the last 10 minutes of the last episode.Any fans disappointed in no Reeds or Dawn sword in the long night battle? Felt there was so much missing that should have been there. Even after rewatching I still think they missed a lot of opportunities. Like if they cut out the Arya library stuff they could have introduced those elements before the battle.It's not like they were held to a time limit on the length of the episode as that went 80 minutes. If they wanted to introduce any other stuff to the story they could have easily done so without needing to cut that Arya scene.
They didn't add the stuff you would like to have seen because they didn't think it added anything to the story.
The point of the library stuff was to change pace from the huge battle to focus tension around a single major character and to prep the viewer for her sneak attack on the Night King. Cramming in more mythology or references only a book-reader would know about only makes the overall story denser with no real added narrative value. They've made some dumb decisions on the show but trimming down the lore and storylines in favor of more character beats hasn't been one of them.
And let's be clear this is a fantasy series. The show has gone heavily away from what makes a great fantasy series since they've passed the books and the quality of the show has suffered significantly.
I loved The Walking Dead and even got into reading some of the comics stuff because of it. But haven't watched the last few seasons because they went off the rail and it started to suck. If it's so bad, why don't you just do what I did with The Walking Dead and stop watching it?
I still enjoy watching the show, I just find the direction and the choices to be highly suspect, which has taken some enjoyment from me. And the reality is there are 3 episodes left. I can't really walk away from a show with 3 episodes to go, but it doesn't mean we as fans shouldn't complain about choices. After all this what this thread is for.Moranis, if it's so bad, and has been for years, why do you continue to watch it?There were better ways to do change of pace though. The Sansa and Tyrion scene for example was nice. They could have added more in the Gods Wood. They also could have cut out a few of the battle scenes. For what they've actually shown in 190 minutes this season easily could have been 120 minutes and they could have then added stuff that filled in gaps, advanced the story better, etc. It was a huge problem last season as well.I'm pretty sure his point was more that they didn't need the Arya in the library scene as it added almost nothing to the story. IMO, that has been a pretty consistent problem with the show once they advanced past the books. There is a lot of useless stuff, but yet they don't have stuff that should be in there or that would help fill in tremendous gaps and holes. The show really has gone down hill and they absolutely took a crap on the first 6 seasons in the last 10 minutes of the last episode.Any fans disappointed in no Reeds or Dawn sword in the long night battle? Felt there was so much missing that should have been there. Even after rewatching I still think they missed a lot of opportunities. Like if they cut out the Arya library stuff they could have introduced those elements before the battle.It's not like they were held to a time limit on the length of the episode as that went 80 minutes. If they wanted to introduce any other stuff to the story they could have easily done so without needing to cut that Arya scene.
They didn't add the stuff you would like to have seen because they didn't think it added anything to the story.
The point of the library stuff was to change pace from the huge battle to focus tension around a single major character and to prep the viewer for her sneak attack on the Night King. Cramming in more mythology or references only a book-reader would know about only makes the overall story denser with no real added narrative value. They've made some dumb decisions on the show but trimming down the lore and storylines in favor of more character beats hasn't been one of them.
And let's be clear this is a fantasy series. The show has gone heavily away from what makes a great fantasy series since they've passed the books and the quality of the show has suffered significantly.
I loved The Walking Dead and even got into reading some of the comics stuff because of it. But haven't watched the last few seasons because they went off the rail and it started to suck. If it's so bad, why don't you just do what I did with The Walking Dead and stop watching it?
For everybody that worries about the story being illogical or incomplete I'll give a brief summary of how the last three episodes will go:
Obviously what's going to happen next is a fight with Cersei and her Golden Company. Daenerys will initially take the advantage in this battle by defeating the Golden Company with her dragons (although Viserion dies), but what she doesn't know is that Sansa has become increasingly worried that the North will suffer under Targaryen rule. So she makes a deal with Cersei, in which Sansa is allowed to keep the North if she agrees on the plan to betray Daenerys. To execute the plan Sansa sends her lifeguard Ser Brienne on a mission to take out Daenerys, which ultimately succeeds when Jaime Lannister stabs Daenerys to save Brienne's life. So now the Kingslayer has also become the Queenslayer.
Of course Jon Snow is devastated by this betrayal and the loss of Daenerys. As a result he wants to take revenge and becomes the new Mad King as he takes Rhaegar to fly to King's Landing and burns the whole city to the ground. Jaime has returned to King's Landing to try to rescue Cersei, but Bronn kills Jaime to take the promised gold by Qyburn. Cersei now has lost everything and commits suicide by wildfire. Jon Snow has fullly transformed into Aegon Targaryen and even Sam isn't able to talk sense in him as he travels towards Winterfell to meet Sansa and burns every village in his way. Arriving at Winterfell he encounters Arya in the courtyard, who takes him out in a superb fight.
By this death of the last Targaryen all magic in the world including the last dragon disappears. Bran comes back to normal and loses the gifts of the three-eyed-raven. Now Sansa leaves for King's Landing to become the new Queen of the Seven Kingdoms with Tyrion as her Hand of the Queen and Brienne as Commander of the Kingsguard. Arya will be the new Warden of the North, protector of Winterfell, and marries Gendry. Sam marries Gilly and returns home. Grey Worm and Missandei marry and head back to Meereen. The Hound gets his opportunity to finish his brother the Mountain, while Tormund, Varys and Davos all happily leave Winterfell now that the Game of Thrones has ended and peace has been restored. The end.
My predictions have a terrible track record but I don't think this ends without a conflict between Jon and Dany, at least through proxy (imprisoning/killing people loyal to the other) but more directly as it progresses. I think a rift will develop due to combo of characters learning about Jon's claim to the throne, the tensions with the North overall, and Dany will go too far in dealing with Cersei and taking King's Landing. Her vision of the throne room was thought to be snow coming through the roof, but now I think it will be ash.
Basically I still think Dany will do at least a semi-villain turn; it'd be an excellent twist if it was Jon who went full Mad King but MUCH harder to make it seem plausible given his character.
My predictions have a terrible track record but I don't think this ends without a conflict between Jon and Dany, at least through proxy (imprisoning/killing people loyal to the other) but more directly as it progresses. I think a rift will develop due to combo of characters learning about Jon's claim to the throne, the tensions with the North overall, and Dany will go too far in dealing with Cersei and taking King's Landing. Her vision of the throne room was thought to be snow coming through the roof, but now I think it will be ash.
Basically I still think Dany will do at least a semi-villain turn; it'd be an excellent twist if it was Jon who went full Mad King but MUCH harder to make it seem plausible given his character.
Not ash, not literal snow... Jon Snow
Or the most plausible explanation is the vision was written by Martin in the books and the show has completely altered the reason for the vision and nothing will happen resembling the vision at all in the show (but will still have meaning in the books).
My predictions have a terrible track record but I don't think this ends without a conflict between Jon and Dany, at least through proxy (imprisoning/killing people loyal to the other) but more directly as it progresses. I think a rift will develop due to combo of characters learning about Jon's claim to the throne, the tensions with the North overall, and Dany will go too far in dealing with Cersei and taking King's Landing. Her vision of the throne room was thought to be snow coming through the roof, but now I think it will be ash.
Basically I still think Dany will do at least a semi-villain turn; it'd be an excellent twist if it was Jon who went full Mad King but MUCH harder to make it seem plausible given his character.
Not ash, not literal snow... Jon Snow
Ya that was the other interpretation but he's not really Jon Snow anymore if he takes the throne, he's Aegon Targaryen. Plus coming through a destroyed roof would suggest he was the one that destroyed it. Dunno. But I do like it much better when visions are symbolic and not "this is what will literally happen later".
My predictions have a terrible track record but I don't think this ends without a conflict between Jon and Dany, at least through proxy (imprisoning/killing people loyal to the other) but more directly as it progresses. I think a rift will develop due to combo of characters learning about Jon's claim to the throne, the tensions with the North overall, and Dany will go too far in dealing with Cersei and taking King's Landing. Her vision of the throne room was thought to be snow coming through the roof, but now I think it will be ash.
Basically I still think Dany will do at least a semi-villain turn; it'd be an excellent twist if it was Jon who went full Mad King but MUCH harder to make it seem plausible given his character.
Not ash, not literal snow... Jon Snow
Ya that was the other interpretation but he's not really Jon Snow anymore if he takes the throne, he's Aegon Targaryen. Plus coming through a destroyed roof would suggest he was the one that destroyed it. Dunno. But I do like it much better when visions are symbolic and not "this is what will literally happen later".
For everybody that worries about the story being illogical or incomplete I'll give a brief summary of how the last three episodes will go:
Obviously what's going to happen next is a fight with Cersei and her Golden Company. Daenerys will initially take the advantage in this battle by defeating the Golden Company with her dragons (although Viserion dies), but what she doesn't know is that Sansa has become increasingly worried that the North will suffer under Targaryen rule. So she makes a deal with Cersei, in which Sansa is allowed to keep the North if she agrees on the plan to betray Daenerys. To execute the plan Sansa sends her lifeguard Ser Brienne on a mission to take out Daenerys, which ultimately succeeds when Jaime Lannister stabs Daenerys to save Brienne's life. So now the Kingslayer has also become the Queenslayer.
Of course Jon Snow is devastated by this betrayal and the loss of Daenerys. As a result he wants to take revenge and becomes the new Mad King as he takes Rhaegar to fly to King's Landing and burns the whole city to the ground. Jaime has returned to King's Landing to try to rescue Cersei, but Bronn kills Jaime to take the promised gold by Qyburn. Cersei now has lost everything and commits suicide by wildfire. Jon Snow has fullly transformed into Aegon Targaryen and even Sam isn't able to talk sense in him as he travels towards Winterfell to meet Sansa and burns every village in his way. Arriving at Winterfell he encounters Arya in the courtyard, who takes him out in a superb fight.
By this death of the last Targaryen all magic in the world including the last dragon disappears. Bran comes back to normal and loses the gifts of the three-eyed-raven. Now Sansa leaves for King's Landing to become the new Queen of the Seven Kingdoms with Tyrion as her Hand of the Queen and Brienne as Commander of the Kingsguard. Arya will be the new Warden of the North, protector of Winterfell, and marries Gendry. Sam marries Gilly and returns home. Grey Worm and Missandei marry and head back to Meereen. The Hound gets his opportunity to finish his brother the Mountain, while Tormund, Varys and Davos all happily leave Winterfell now that the Game of Thrones has ended and peace has been restored. The end.
My predictions have a terrible track record but I don't think this ends without a conflict between Jon and Dany, at least through proxy (imprisoning/killing people loyal to the other) but more directly as it progresses. I think a rift will develop due to combo of characters learning about Jon's claim to the throne, the tensions with the North overall, and Dany will go too far in dealing with Cersei and taking King's Landing. Her vision of the throne room was thought to be snow coming through the roof, but now I think it will be ash.
Basically I still think Dany will do at least a semi-villain turn; it'd be an excellent twist if it was Jon who went full Mad King but MUCH harder to make it seem plausible given his character.
For everybody that worries about the story being illogical or incomplete I'll give a brief summary of how the last three episodes will go:
Obviously what's going to happen next is a fight with Cersei and her Golden Company. Daenerys will initially take the advantage in this battle by defeating the Golden Company with her dragons (although Viserion dies), but what she doesn't know is that Sansa has become increasingly worried that the North will suffer under Targaryen rule. So she makes a deal with Cersei, in which Sansa is allowed to keep the North if she agrees on the plan to betray Daenerys. To execute the plan Sansa sends her lifeguard Ser Brienne on a mission to take out Daenerys, which ultimately succeeds when Jaime Lannister stabs Daenerys to save Brienne's life. So now the Kingslayer has also become the Queenslayer.
Of course Jon Snow is devastated by this betrayal and the loss of Daenerys. As a result he wants to take revenge and becomes the new Mad King as he takes Rhaegar to fly to King's Landing and burns the whole city to the ground. Jaime has returned to King's Landing to try to rescue Cersei, but Bronn kills Jaime to take the promised gold by Qyburn. Cersei now has lost everything and commits suicide by wildfire. Jon Snow has fullly transformed into Aegon Targaryen and even Sam isn't able to talk sense in him as he travels towards Winterfell to meet Sansa and burns every village in his way. Arriving at Winterfell he encounters Arya in the courtyard, who takes him out in a superb fight.
By this death of the last Targaryen all magic in the world including the last dragon disappears. Bran comes back to normal and loses the gifts of the three-eyed-raven. Now Sansa leaves for King's Landing to become the new Queen of the Seven Kingdoms with Tyrion as her Hand of the Queen and Brienne as Commander of the Kingsguard. Arya will be the new Warden of the North, protector of Winterfell, and marries Gendry. Sam marries Gilly and returns home. Grey Worm and Missandei marry and head back to Meereen. The Hound gets his opportunity to finish his brother the Mountain, while Tormund, Varys and Davos all happily leave Winterfell now that the Game of Thrones has ended and peace has been restored. The end.
My predictions have a terrible track record but I don't think this ends without a conflict between Jon and Dany, at least through proxy (imprisoning/killing people loyal to the other) but more directly as it progresses. I think a rift will develop due to combo of characters learning about Jon's claim to the throne, the tensions with the North overall, and Dany will go too far in dealing with Cersei and taking King's Landing. Her vision of the throne room was thought to be snow coming through the roof, but now I think it will be ash.
Basically I still think Dany will do at least a semi-villain turn; it'd be an excellent twist if it was Jon who went full Mad King but MUCH harder to make it seem plausible given his character.
Of course it was a joke. Jon Snow is probably the most moral man in Westeros, therefore it wouldn't make any sense at all, but the writers haven't been stopped by logic or continuity of the story so far. If it looks cool, you have to do it, right?
For everybody that worries about the story being illogical or incomplete I'll give a brief summary of how the last three episodes will go:
Obviously what's going to happen next is a fight with Cersei and her Golden Company. Daenerys will initially take the advantage in this battle by defeating the Golden Company with her dragons (although Viserion dies), but what she doesn't know is that Sansa has become increasingly worried that the North will suffer under Targaryen rule. So she makes a deal with Cersei, in which Sansa is allowed to keep the North if she agrees on the plan to betray Daenerys. To execute the plan Sansa sends her lifeguard Ser Brienne on a mission to take out Daenerys, which ultimately succeeds when Jaime Lannister stabs Daenerys to save Brienne's life. So now the Kingslayer has also become the Queenslayer.
Of course Jon Snow is devastated by this betrayal and the loss of Daenerys. As a result he wants to take revenge and becomes the new Mad King as he takes Rhaegar to fly to King's Landing and burns the whole city to the ground. Jaime has returned to King's Landing to try to rescue Cersei, but Bronn kills Jaime to take the promised gold by Qyburn. Cersei now has lost everything and commits suicide by wildfire. Jon Snow has fullly transformed into Aegon Targaryen and even Sam isn't able to talk sense in him as he travels towards Winterfell to meet Sansa and burns every village in his way. Arriving at Winterfell he encounters Arya in the courtyard, who takes him out in a superb fight.
By this death of the last Targaryen all magic in the world including the last dragon disappears. Bran comes back to normal and loses the gifts of the three-eyed-raven. Now Sansa leaves for King's Landing to become the new Queen of the Seven Kingdoms with Tyrion as her Hand of the Queen and Brienne as Commander of the Kingsguard. Arya will be the new Warden of the North, protector of Winterfell, and marries Gendry. Sam marries Gilly and returns home. Grey Worm and Missandei marry and head back to Meereen. The Hound gets his opportunity to finish his brother the Mountain, while Tormund, Varys and Davos all happily leave Winterfell now that the Game of Thrones has ended and peace has been restored. The end.
My predictions have a terrible track record but I don't think this ends without a conflict between Jon and Dany, at least through proxy (imprisoning/killing people loyal to the other) but more directly as it progresses. I think a rift will develop due to combo of characters learning about Jon's claim to the throne, the tensions with the North overall, and Dany will go too far in dealing with Cersei and taking King's Landing. Her vision of the throne room was thought to be snow coming through the roof, but now I think it will be ash.
Basically I still think Dany will do at least a semi-villain turn; it'd be an excellent twist if it was Jon who went full Mad King but MUCH harder to make it seem plausible given his character.
Of course it was a joke. Jon Snow is probably the most moral man in Westeros, therefore it wouldn't make any sense at all, but the writers haven't been stopped by logic or continuity of the story so far. If it looks cool, you have to do it, right?
You gotta be less subtle I've heard way crazier theories made in total earnest lol. Well played though, a lot of effort into that.
I did a rewatch of the last episode and it was a lot better now that I know how the story will go. The dumb tactical stuff, eh happens in every show. Arya's killing the Night King is set up much better in hindsight though I still could've used some hint in between her last two scenes. And the insane horror of the whole thing (raining wights shaken off by a dragon!), particularly Jon's futile run through Winterfell, was really well-crafted and fun now that I could follow the action better.
The big sticking point continues to be the disconnect between the overwhelming odds and the extremely high survival rate of main characters. Especially Sam who should've been dead like 100 times over, and Davos who is kind of hanging around but never seen with a weapon. The wights are stabbing and leaping machines on randos but give them a name actor and they just wanna bear hug. It really cheapens the episode before it - the tension and sense of doom of the preparations feels forced when basically everyone we see anticipating death dodges it and apparently isn't really seriously hurt either.
This is the ending we deserve. Some call it bad, but really, why would it be any better?
Back in the first seasons, we used to explore every nook and cranny. Read every clue and shared theories. We did the fighting tutorial with Arya and the butcher boy. We got the kingdom management basics with Maester Luwin's advice. We even learned the vows of the Night's Watch so we wouldn't stutter with Jon at the Wall!
But somewhere along the way, we got lazy.
When was the last time we even completed a sidequest? Season 5, Dorne? Ever since that fiasco, all we did was rush the main storyline. Pick the first option on dialogues and fast travel everyone to Winterfell.
Remember the chase scene in season 6? We didn't even try to solve that one. Pop that resurrection soup to skip the Waif quicktime event, and use the darkness glitch to cheese the 2nd phase.
We failed all the scouting and stealth checks North of the Wall, so we had to summon the Dragon Queen early, and we didn't even manage to keep all three dragons alive!
After all this, you still expect the full ending. Maybe even the optional White Walker fights. Without putting in any work. But that's not how these Games work.
It's too late to reload. Your oldest save is in season 6, the last time you even bothered reloading to try and save someone in episode 5.
It's over now. It's either New Game+, or wait with us for the Winds of Winter DLC. There's no salvaging this playthrough.
All those armies and all those brilliant fighters and all of Brans foresight werent enough. In the end Arya basically wins the whole war all on her own with a plan she came up with all on her own (after receiving a hint from Melisandre). We have no on-screen indication that the Night King was weakened from his battle against Jon and Dany, nor do we have any indication that the only reason Arya could pull off this move is because of the battle she was just taking part in.
If our heroes had watched Episode 3 ahead of time it seems as though their best plan would legitimately have been to send the Dothraki south, stuff as many people into the crypts as possible (well-armed) and leave the gates of Winterfell wide open with Bran in the Godswood. Then tell Arya to hide in the Godswood (like she presumably did in Episode 3 after her chat with Mel) and ambush the Night King when he arrived to kill Bran. It would have been the exact same outcome, but that thousands of people would still be alive.
And the result is that the show's big theme of humanity working together we all have to put aside our distrust and fight together against the army of the dead is completely undermined.
How no-one made a difference
Jon let the wildlings through the wall in part because he recognised they needed to fight together against the dead. Yet the wildlings didnt make a difference to the outcome.
Sam went to the Citadel and discovered where the dragonglass was. Yet the dragonglass didnt make a difference to the outcome.
Jon went south to form an alliance with Dany because he thought he needed her help to defeat the Night King. Yet the dragons and dothraki and unsullied didnt make a difference to the outcome.
Tyrion arranged the wight summit to convince Cersei that the threat was real. Yet Cersei wouldnt have made a difference to the outcome anyway.
Jamie abandoned Cersei since he felt it was important for him to honour his word, go North and fight for the living. Yet Jamie didnt make a difference to the outcome.
Theon returned to Winterfell to fight for the Starks and help save the world. Yet Theon didnt make a difference to the outcome.
Arya was the only one they needed.
All those armies and all those brilliant fighters and all of Brans foresight werent enough. In the end Arya basically wins the whole war all on her own with a plan she came up with all on her own (after receiving a hint from Melisandre). We have no on-screen indication that the Night King was weakened from his battle against Jon and Dany, nor do we have any indication that the only reason Arya could pull off this move is because of the battle she was just taking part in.
If our heroes had watched Episode 3 ahead of time it seems as though their best plan would legitimately have been to send the Dothraki south, stuff as many people into the crypts as possible (well-armed) and leave the gates of Winterfell wide open with Bran in the Godswood. Then tell Arya to hide in the Godswood (like she presumably did in Episode 3 after her chat with Mel) and ambush the Night King when he arrived to kill Bran. It would have been the exact same outcome, but that thousands of people would still be alive.
And the result is that the show's big theme of humanity working together we all have to put aside our distrust and fight together against the army of the dead is completely undermined.
QuoteAll those armies and all those brilliant fighters and all of Brans foresight werent enough. In the end Arya basically wins the whole war all on her own with a plan she came up with all on her own (after receiving a hint from Melisandre). We have no on-screen indication that the Night King was weakened from his battle against Jon and Dany, nor do we have any indication that the only reason Arya could pull off this move is because of the battle she was just taking part in.
If our heroes had watched Episode 3 ahead of time it seems as though their best plan would legitimately have been to send the Dothraki south, stuff as many people into the crypts as possible (well-armed) and leave the gates of Winterfell wide open with Bran in the Godswood. Then tell Arya to hide in the Godswood (like she presumably did in Episode 3 after her chat with Mel) and ambush the Night King when he arrived to kill Bran. It would have been the exact same outcome, but that thousands of people would still be alive.
And the result is that the show's big theme of humanity working together we all have to put aside our distrust and fight together against the army of the dead is completely undermined.
Bran did not take this dagger when given a chance earlier in the season, so maybe he foresaw it, and maybe it was his plan after all.
https://mashable.com/article/game-of-thrones-arya-valyrian-dagger-night-king-explained/
So there is that and sorry to bust your theory.
Funny thing about stories. The stories end the way the storyteller wants them to end whether it's the way the listener of the story wants it end or not.
I am sorry but a lot of you guys sound like wrestling marks complaining about how a predetermined, professional wrestling match didn't end the way they wanted.
I think his first person perspective from the point of view of 10-12 different characters gives so much more history, dimension and depth that you can't get through television. Also, Martin is committed to a time line that works and won't have people teleporting all over the world.Quote
Funny thing about stories. The stories end the way the storyteller wants them to end whether it's the way the listener of the story wants it end or not.
I am sorry but a lot of you guys sound like wrestling marks complaining about how a predetermined, professional wrestling match didn't end the way they wanted.
I can't wait to see how Martin handles it, he is a better writer than the show ones to me that will be the official version.
So really the only moving thing about the episode in retrospect is how "cool" it is that Arya killed the Night King. Sure, it's a satisfying culmination to her storyline, but very little of what got us to that moment in the episode really seems consequential. Except insofar as the dead killing off most of Dany's armies will affect the coming conflict with Cersei.
I think his first person perspective from the point of view of 10-12 different characters gives so much more history, dimension and depth that you can't get through television. Also, Martin is committed to a time line that works and won't have people teleporting all over the world.Quote
Funny thing about stories. The stories end the way the storyteller wants them to end whether it's the way the listener of the story wants it end or not.
I am sorry but a lot of you guys sound like wrestling marks complaining about how a predetermined, professional wrestling match didn't end the way they wanted.
I can't wait to see how Martin handles it, he is a better writer than the show ones to me that will be the official version.
This has been posted on here before, but I think it is worth putting out there again.I think his first person perspective from the point of view of 10-12 different characters gives so much more history, dimension and depth that you can't get through television. Also, Martin is committed to a time line that works and won't have people teleporting all over the world.Quote
Funny thing about stories. The stories end the way the storyteller wants them to end whether it's the way the listener of the story wants it end or not.
I am sorry but a lot of you guys sound like wrestling marks complaining about how a predetermined, professional wrestling match didn't end the way they wanted.
I can't wait to see how Martin handles it, he is a better writer than the show ones to me that will be the official version.
Also, for all the fanboy sites and theories with their prophecies and history, Martin tends to ignore them all. His story and how it would end was determined pretty much from before he started writing. He has been consulted throughout the writing of the story since the show went past the books. It's most likely that much of what happens will also happen in the book just with better explanations, details, context and happening within one coherent timeline.
This has been posted on here before, but I think it is worth putting out there again.I think his first person perspective from the point of view of 10-12 different characters gives so much more history, dimension and depth that you can't get through television. Also, Martin is committed to a time line that works and won't have people teleporting all over the world.Quote
Funny thing about stories. The stories end the way the storyteller wants them to end whether it's the way the listener of the story wants it end or not.
I am sorry but a lot of you guys sound like wrestling marks complaining about how a predetermined, professional wrestling match didn't end the way they wanted.
I can't wait to see how Martin handles it, he is a better writer than the show ones to me that will be the official version.
Also, for all the fanboy sites and theories with their prophecies and history, Martin tends to ignore them all. His story and how it would end was determined pretty much from before he started writing. He has been consulted throughout the writing of the story since the show went past the books. It's most likely that much of what happens will also happen in the book just with better explanations, details, context and happening within one coherent timeline.
https://www.insider.com/game-of-thrones-original-story-2017-8
Yikes....not another Robert Jordan situation. Funny. I started reading Game of Thrones, the book just before A Clash of Kings came out. I have been waiting for him to finish this series for over 20 years. I think I have read what's out 3-4 times over those two decades. And yet, I am still waiting on the last couple books even though the television show has finished the tale.I think his first person perspective from the point of view of 10-12 different characters gives so much more history, dimension and depth that you can't get through television. Also, Martin is committed to a time line that works and won't have people teleporting all over the world.Quote
Funny thing about stories. The stories end the way the storyteller wants them to end whether it's the way the listener of the story wants it end or not.
I am sorry but a lot of you guys sound like wrestling marks complaining about how a predetermined, professional wrestling match didn't end the way they wanted.
I can't wait to see how Martin handles it, he is a better writer than the show ones to me that will be the official version.
Agree on the added depth, but the lack of teleportation is one of the big reasons why the books keep taking longer and longer to do. The original plan was a 5 year timeskip but that didn't work; then Dany was stuck in Meereen and he had to figure out how to untangle that part. Now he's got a billion different elements to resolve - he literally can't keep track of it all, there's a couple superfans he consults with - in a couple of books. Part of why I don't expect he'll finish the series before he dies and they'll outsource it to someone else based on his notes.
Yikes....not another Robert Jordan situation. Funny. I started reading Game of Thrones, the book just before A Clash of Kings came out. I have been waiting for him to finish this series for over 20 years. I think I have read what's out 3-4 times over those two decades. And yet, I am still waiting on the last couple books even though the television show has finished the tale.I think his first person perspective from the point of view of 10-12 different characters gives so much more history, dimension and depth that you can't get through television. Also, Martin is committed to a time line that works and won't have people teleporting all over the world.Quote
Funny thing about stories. The stories end the way the storyteller wants them to end whether it's the way the listener of the story wants it end or not.
I am sorry but a lot of you guys sound like wrestling marks complaining about how a predetermined, professional wrestling match didn't end the way they wanted.
I can't wait to see how Martin handles it, he is a better writer than the show ones to me that will be the official version.
Agree on the added depth, but the lack of teleportation is one of the big reasons why the books keep taking longer and longer to do. The original plan was a 5 year timeskip but that didn't work; then Dany was stuck in Meereen and he had to figure out how to untangle that part. Now he's got a billion different elements to resolve - he literally can't keep track of it all, there's a couple superfans he consults with - in a couple of books. Part of why I don't expect he'll finish the series before he dies and they'll outsource it to someone else based on his notes.
The books are so much better. Martin is a master story teller. There is only so much detail, depth and historic context you can get in 10 hours of television(1 season) versus 1200 pages of text(1 book).
Well it is he. That was Martin's original idea that he sent around to publishers. He obviously adapted it and changed it over time, but I think it gives a pretty good idea of what this story is about.This has been posted on here before, but I think it is worth putting out there again.I think his first person perspective from the point of view of 10-12 different characters gives so much more history, dimension and depth that you can't get through television. Also, Martin is committed to a time line that works and won't have people teleporting all over the world.Quote
Funny thing about stories. The stories end the way the storyteller wants them to end whether it's the way the listener of the story wants it end or not.
I am sorry but a lot of you guys sound like wrestling marks complaining about how a predetermined, professional wrestling match didn't end the way they wanted.
I can't wait to see how Martin handles it, he is a better writer than the show ones to me that will be the official version.
Also, for all the fanboy sites and theories with their prophecies and history, Martin tends to ignore them all. His story and how it would end was determined pretty much from before he started writing. He has been consulted throughout the writing of the story since the show went past the books. It's most likely that much of what happens will also happen in the book just with better explanations, details, context and happening within one coherent timeline.
https://www.insider.com/game-of-thrones-original-story-2017-8
Thank god they didn't go with the Jon-Arya incest angle although the one they did pick is arguably worse. But there's still time!
Also, for all the fanboy sites and theories with their prophecies and history, Martin tends to ignore them all
And Martin hasn't yet shown that he has ignored any of the prophecies or history in the books. Granted the prophecies mostly haven't been fulfilled yet in his books, but his writing has stayed true to them thus far.QuoteAlso, for all the fanboy sites and theories with their prophecies and history, Martin tends to ignore them all
He hired one to help keep him straight on he story line though, did you know that?
https://www.businessinsider.com/george-rr-martin-hired-superfans-fact-check-game-of-thrones-2015-4
Before Arya lunges at the Night King, we see Jon Snow trying to make his way into the godswood, where Bran Stark and the Night King are. The path is blocked by Viserion, the White Walker dragon. Jon tries to run past him, but he's spotted by the dragon. Jon ends up trapped behind the battered remnants of a wall and decides, with nowhere left to run, to confront Viserion. Except he doesn't raise his sword, he just stands up and yells.
Here's what you may have missed: Jon yells "Go!" One long one and then another short one. In the very next scene we see one of the White Walker's hair flicker in wind -- wind created by Arya as she makes her way to the Night King.
In other words, Jon saw Arya and distracted the dragon so that she could make her way through.
Not only would this make sense in terms of clearing a path for Arya, it would also absolve him from the stupidity of trying to kill a dragon by yelling at it.
Was this what we were supposed to observe?QuoteBefore Arya lunges at the Night King, we see Jon Snow trying to make his way into the godswood, where Bran Stark and the Night King are. The path is blocked by Viserion, the White Walker dragon. Jon tries to run past him, but he's spotted by the dragon. Jon ends up trapped behind the battered remnants of a wall and decides, with nowhere left to run, to confront Viserion. Except he doesn't raise his sword, he just stands up and yells.
Here's what you may have missed: Jon yells "Go!" One long one and then another short one. In the very next scene we see one of the White Walker's hair flicker in wind -- wind created by Arya as she makes her way to the Night King.
In other words, Jon saw Arya and distracted the dragon so that she could make her way through.
Not only would this make sense in terms of clearing a path for Arya, it would also absolve him from the stupidity of trying to kill a dragon by yelling at it.
https://www.cnet.com/news/game-of-thrones-season-8-one-key-battle-of-winterfell-detail-you-missed/
Funny thing about stories. The stories end the way the storyteller wants them to end whether it's the way the listener of the story wants it end or not.
I am sorry but a lot of you guys sound like wrestling marks complaining about how a predetermined, professional wrestling match didn't end the way they wanted.
Was this what we were supposed to observe?QuoteBefore Arya lunges at the Night King, we see Jon Snow trying to make his way into the godswood, where Bran Stark and the Night King are. The path is blocked by Viserion, the White Walker dragon. Jon tries to run past him, but he's spotted by the dragon. Jon ends up trapped behind the battered remnants of a wall and decides, with nowhere left to run, to confront Viserion. Except he doesn't raise his sword, he just stands up and yells.
Here's what you may have missed: Jon yells "Go!" One long one and then another short one. In the very next scene we see one of the White Walker's hair flicker in wind -- wind created by Arya as she makes her way to the Night King.
In other words, Jon saw Arya and distracted the dragon so that she could make her way through.
Not only would this make sense in terms of clearing a path for Arya, it would also absolve him from the stupidity of trying to kill a dragon by yelling at it.
https://www.cnet.com/news/game-of-thrones-season-8-one-key-battle-of-winterfell-detail-you-missed/
If they intended that, they did a very poor job of making it apparent to the viewer.
Was this what we were supposed to observe?QuoteBefore Arya lunges at the Night King, we see Jon Snow trying to make his way into the godswood, where Bran Stark and the Night King are. The path is blocked by Viserion, the White Walker dragon. Jon tries to run past him, but he's spotted by the dragon. Jon ends up trapped behind the battered remnants of a wall and decides, with nowhere left to run, to confront Viserion. Except he doesn't raise his sword, he just stands up and yells.
Here's what you may have missed: Jon yells "Go!" One long one and then another short one. In the very next scene we see one of the White Walker's hair flicker in wind -- wind created by Arya as she makes her way to the Night King.
In other words, Jon saw Arya and distracted the dragon so that she could make her way through.
Not only would this make sense in terms of clearing a path for Arya, it would also absolve him from the stupidity of trying to kill a dragon by yelling at it.
https://www.cnet.com/news/game-of-thrones-season-8-one-key-battle-of-winterfell-detail-you-missed/
If they intended that, they did a very poor job of making it apparent to the viewer.
I've read that theory and while it does sound like he's yelling "go" it felt more like a last act of desperation after he can't get past it. Helping Arya would've had to be totally spontaneous too, there's no indication they planned anything out, and we never see Jon's eyes flicker off-screen or anything else that would suggest he knew she was there.
Basically if they call back to it next episode then sure, cool little element that makes Jon's attempt less futile but was done much too subtly to catch the first time around. If not, didn't happen.
Was this what we were supposed to observe?QuoteBefore Arya lunges at the Night King, we see Jon Snow trying to make his way into the godswood, where Bran Stark and the Night King are. The path is blocked by Viserion, the White Walker dragon. Jon tries to run past him, but he's spotted by the dragon. Jon ends up trapped behind the battered remnants of a wall and decides, with nowhere left to run, to confront Viserion. Except he doesn't raise his sword, he just stands up and yells.
Here's what you may have missed: Jon yells "Go!" One long one and then another short one. In the very next scene we see one of the White Walker's hair flicker in wind -- wind created by Arya as she makes her way to the Night King.
In other words, Jon saw Arya and distracted the dragon so that she could make her way through.
Not only would this make sense in terms of clearing a path for Arya, it would also absolve him from the stupidity of trying to kill a dragon by yelling at it.
https://www.cnet.com/news/game-of-thrones-season-8-one-key-battle-of-winterfell-detail-you-missed/
If they intended that, they did a very poor job of making it apparent to the viewer.
I've read that theory and while it does sound like he's yelling "go" it felt more like a last act of desperation after he can't get past it. Helping Arya would've had to be totally spontaneous too, there's no indication they planned anything out, and we never see Jon's eyes flicker off-screen or anything else that would suggest he knew she was there.
Basically if they call back to it next episode then sure, cool little element that makes Jon's attempt less futile but was done much too subtly to catch the first time around. If not, didn't happen.
I would say that the theory just demonstrates that there are plenty of ways the show writers could have made even small changes to the episode to establish the ways in which the characters worked together to overcome the Night King.
Was this what we were supposed to observe?TP. It makes sense to me, especially since we know how stealth Arya is.QuoteBefore Arya lunges at the Night King, we see Jon Snow trying to make his way into the godswood, where Bran Stark and the Night King are. The path is blocked by Viserion, the White Walker dragon. Jon tries to run past him, but he's spotted by the dragon. Jon ends up trapped behind the battered remnants of a wall and decides, with nowhere left to run, to confront Viserion. Except he doesn't raise his sword, he just stands up and yells.
Here's what you may have missed: Jon yells "Go!" One long one and then another short one. In the very next scene we see one of the White Walker's hair flicker in wind -- wind created by Arya as she makes her way to the Night King.
In other words, Jon saw Arya and distracted the dragon so that she could make her way through.
Not only would this make sense in terms of clearing a path for Arya, it would also absolve him from the stupidity of trying to kill a dragon by yelling at it.
https://www.cnet.com/news/game-of-thrones-season-8-one-key-battle-of-winterfell-detail-you-missed/
All that is subjective. What I am saying is, the storyteller tells the story and it ends the way the storyteller tells it. And people act based on that.Funny thing about stories. The stories end the way the storyteller wants them to end whether it's the way the listener of the story wants it end or not.
I am sorry but a lot of you guys sound like wrestling marks complaining about how a predetermined, professional wrestling match didn't end the way they wanted.
Funny thing about stories -- how effective the ending is depends a great deal on how the storyteller gets there.
Is the ending earned or not? Does it fit with what came before it? Do the narrative threads and themes developed early in the story come to a satisfying, comprehensible, and organic conclusion?
Was this what we were supposed to observe?QuoteBefore Arya lunges at the Night King, we see Jon Snow trying to make his way into the godswood, where Bran Stark and the Night King are. The path is blocked by Viserion, the White Walker dragon. Jon tries to run past him, but he's spotted by the dragon. Jon ends up trapped behind the battered remnants of a wall and decides, with nowhere left to run, to confront Viserion. Except he doesn't raise his sword, he just stands up and yells.
Here's what you may have missed: Jon yells "Go!" One long one and then another short one. In the very next scene we see one of the White Walker's hair flicker in wind -- wind created by Arya as she makes her way to the Night King.
In other words, Jon saw Arya and distracted the dragon so that she could make her way through.
Not only would this make sense in terms of clearing a path for Arya, it would also absolve him from the stupidity of trying to kill a dragon by yelling at it.
https://www.cnet.com/news/game-of-thrones-season-8-one-key-battle-of-winterfell-detail-you-missed/
If they intended that, they did a very poor job of making it apparent to the viewer.
I've read that theory and while it does sound like he's yelling "go" it felt more like a last act of desperation after he can't get past it. Helping Arya would've had to be totally spontaneous too, there's no indication they planned anything out, and we never see Jon's eyes flicker off-screen or anything else that would suggest he knew she was there.
Basically if they call back to it next episode then sure, cool little element that makes Jon's attempt less futile but was done much too subtly to catch the first time around. If not, didn't happen.
I would say that the theory just demonstrates that there are plenty of ways the show writers could have made even small changes to the episode to establish the ways in which the characters worked together to overcome the Night King.
agreed. if there had been something like this occurring, it would have explained a lot of what happened at the end that appears to make no sense. It should have been clear enough during the initial showing but if it has to be seen a second time to see it occur, I could live with that as a viewer but it shows poor direction IMHO. if there's nothing tangible supporting this theory no matter how many times the episode is viewed, the ending of the episode was a genuine letdown in the sense that Arya killing the NK was just too convenient.Was this what we were supposed to observe?QuoteBefore Arya lunges at the Night King, we see Jon Snow trying to make his way into the godswood, where Bran Stark and the Night King are. The path is blocked by Viserion, the White Walker dragon. Jon tries to run past him, but he's spotted by the dragon. Jon ends up trapped behind the battered remnants of a wall and decides, with nowhere left to run, to confront Viserion. Except he doesn't raise his sword, he just stands up and yells.
Here's what you may have missed: Jon yells "Go!" One long one and then another short one. In the very next scene we see one of the White Walker's hair flicker in wind -- wind created by Arya as she makes her way to the Night King.
In other words, Jon saw Arya and distracted the dragon so that she could make her way through.
Not only would this make sense in terms of clearing a path for Arya, it would also absolve him from the stupidity of trying to kill a dragon by yelling at it.
https://www.cnet.com/news/game-of-thrones-season-8-one-key-battle-of-winterfell-detail-you-missed/
If they intended that, they did a very poor job of making it apparent to the viewer.
I've read that theory and while it does sound like he's yelling "go" it felt more like a last act of desperation after he can't get past it. Helping Arya would've had to be totally spontaneous too, there's no indication they planned anything out, and we never see Jon's eyes flicker off-screen or anything else that would suggest he knew she was there.
Basically if they call back to it next episode then sure, cool little element that makes Jon's attempt less futile but was done much too subtly to catch the first time around. If not, didn't happen.
I would say that the theory just demonstrates that there are plenty of ways the show writers could have made even small changes to the episode to establish the ways in which the characters worked together to overcome the Night King.
Yeah. I like the theory, and it would have been much more satisfying. I just think it was unlikely the intent.
All that is subjective. What I am saying is, the storyteller tells the story and it ends the way the storyteller tells it. And people act based on that.Funny thing about stories. The stories end the way the storyteller wants them to end whether it's the way the listener of the story wants it end or not.
I am sorry but a lot of you guys sound like wrestling marks complaining about how a predetermined, professional wrestling match didn't end the way they wanted.
Funny thing about stories -- how effective the ending is depends a great deal on how the storyteller gets there.
Is the ending earned or not? Does it fit with what came before it? Do the narrative threads and themes developed early in the story come to a satisfying, comprehensible, and organic conclusion?
What I see happening is that people who love the series for the series, love the storytelling. Most people I know, loved last season and the payoff of who Jon Snow really was. Yet many of the "informed" fans have done nothing but pan on it.
Most people I know aren't GoT fans that are going through the internet to fan sites, discussing it on Reddit, and trying to go through every portion of it making sure every single last detail and prophecy is fulfilled in a satisfying manner. Those people, I am sorry, are in the mass minority. They are probably a very, very small amount of the 12 million people who watch every week.
I had a ton of family and friends comment about the darkness of the episode but other than that really loved the rollercoaster emotional ride that last episode was. I know the people I was watching it with started cheering when Arya finally killed the Night King. There wasn't the consternation that I see pouring forth from the "informed" fans I have seen on the internet.
Was this what we were supposed to observe?QuoteBefore Arya lunges at the Night King, we see Jon Snow trying to make his way into the godswood, where Bran Stark and the Night King are. The path is blocked by Viserion, the White Walker dragon. Jon tries to run past him, but he's spotted by the dragon. Jon ends up trapped behind the battered remnants of a wall and decides, with nowhere left to run, to confront Viserion. Except he doesn't raise his sword, he just stands up and yells.
Here's what you may have missed: Jon yells "Go!" One long one and then another short one. In the very next scene we see one of the White Walker's hair flicker in wind -- wind created by Arya as she makes her way to the Night King.
In other words, Jon saw Arya and distracted the dragon so that she could make her way through.
Not only would this make sense in terms of clearing a path for Arya, it would also absolve him from the stupidity of trying to kill a dragon by yelling at it.
https://www.cnet.com/news/game-of-thrones-season-8-one-key-battle-of-winterfell-detail-you-missed/
If they intended that, they did a very poor job of making it apparent to the viewer.
For my money this episode was 10x better than last one.
My biggest disappointment from Episode 3 is that they didn't give any info regarding the purpose of the Night King and the White Walkers. Basically, they built them up for 7 and a half seasons, and then kill them all off with no explanation of why they existed, what they wanted, who the Night King really was, etc. They needed a lot more depth to this storyline than they provided.i changed my perspective on this a little when I realized that the Night king isnt in the book. Its just a character HBO came up with. Still feel like a lot of our time was wasted on it.
the Jon distracting the dragon for Arya thing has pretty much been disproven. Hes just yelling things like grrrrrhhhggg. Nice fan theory tho.Was this what we were supposed to observe?TP. It makes sense to me, especially since we know how stealth Arya is.QuoteBefore Arya lunges at the Night King, we see Jon Snow trying to make his way into the godswood, where Bran Stark and the Night King are. The path is blocked by Viserion, the White Walker dragon. Jon tries to run past him, but he's spotted by the dragon. Jon ends up trapped behind the battered remnants of a wall and decides, with nowhere left to run, to confront Viserion. Except he doesn't raise his sword, he just stands up and yells.
Here's what you may have missed: Jon yells "Go!" One long one and then another short one. In the very next scene we see one of the White Walker's hair flicker in wind -- wind created by Arya as she makes her way to the Night King.
In other words, Jon saw Arya and distracted the dragon so that she could make her way through.
Not only would this make sense in terms of clearing a path for Arya, it would also absolve him from the stupidity of trying to kill a dragon by yelling at it.
https://www.cnet.com/news/game-of-thrones-season-8-one-key-battle-of-winterfell-detail-you-missed/
My biggest disappointment from Episode 3 is that they didn't give any info regarding the purpose of the Night King and the White Walkers. Basically, they built them up for 7 and a half seasons, and then kill them all off with no explanation of why they existed, what they wanted, who the Night King really was, etc. They needed a lot more depth to this storyline than they provided.The one overall feeling I have watching this season is it seems like HBO told Benioff & Weiss - 'all you're getting is 6 episodes - wrap it up'.
Ok episode. Everything is on fast forward. Seems we might be heading to a final conflict of Jon vs Dany.
Im still annoyed that bran seems totally pointless.
One more thought: a virtue of keeping the body count down last episode is that there are more characters left on the board to put at risk or kill...Other than Jorah, the people that were killed off wouldn't have had any part to play in the war with Cersei. They kept alive the people who have active storylines.
I don't see anything as pointless. Not even Bran or should I say the 3 eyed raven. The Night King is dead so the characters just focused on that storyline no longer have a part to play. However most of the characters and storylines are still in play.Ok episode. Everything is on fast forward. Seems we might be heading to a final conflict of Jon vs Dany.
Im still annoyed that bran seems totally pointless.
What percentage of the stuff they set up and the characters they developed are not pointless at this stage of the story?
Any significance to Brans comment about Tyrion not envying him due to always living in the past? Or what about his comment to Jon about telling Arya and Sansa being Jons choice?
Both seem like foreshadowing to me. It seems like Bran still has a significant role to play moving forward, but I cant place my finger on what I see that role being.
Dany has already turned heel. Shes super selfish. She doesnt have a valid claim to the throne anymore but she wants Jon to keep the truth a secret so she can be in charge. Its silly. Time for her to die.
I don't think that is the case at all. If Mel knew who was going to kill the Night King, she never would have backed Stannis or sacrificed those countless people including his daughter. She was doing that because she believe Stannis was the Prince Who Was Promised. The Prince Who Was Promised was the savior of mankind i.e. the one destined to kill the Night King. This is the show runners just taking some liberties and trying to come up with a logical reason why they altered the story away from Jon fulfilling his destiny. It just doesn't make sense. And as I said in my last post, if they knew Dany was going to turn heel then they should have kept the prophecy in tact or at least let Jon kill the Night King. The order will be different in the books, but at least if he had been the savior it is a lot easier to see why people loyal to Dany for years would just switch to Jon even before she went full on villain. The show runners have had very little for-sight in these things. They do things that look cool or for added drama, but those things undermine the story and the ultimate outcome.The thing about the prophecy of R'hllor's religion is, as much as some people want to hang everything on those prophecies, the prophecies always seemed to be wrong.
Stannis was not the Prince Who was Promised. Neither was Jon, it turns out. The weapon of the Prince Who Was Promised that would kill the Night King didn't need to be bathed in the blood of a king.
Heck, even Melisandre's attempts to help in the Battle of Winterfell were useless. The Dothraki fire swords did nothing and neither did lighting the fire in the trenches.
About the only thing the God of Fire did was keep Dondarrion and Jon alive so that the Battle of Winterfell would be won.
Hate to say it but, all those in depth followers that based their idea on what would happen based on the God of Fire prophecies were swerved. Turns out the God of Fire was wrong about a ton of stuff.
Well, at least she correctly prophesized that Arya would kill the Night King, right?
Dany has already turned heel. Shes super selfish. She doesnt have a valid claim to the throne anymore but she wants Jon to keep the truth a secret so she can be in charge. Its silly. Time for her to die.It's not a bad story line to have Dany's world come crashing down on her but things just seem too rushed.
I don't think that is the case at all. If Mel knew who was going to kill the Night King, she never would have backed Stannis or sacrificed those countless people including his daughter. She was doing that because she believe Stannis was the Prince Who Was Promised. The Prince Who Was Promised was the savior of mankind i.e. the one destined to kill the Night King. This is the show runners just taking some liberties and trying to come up with a logical reason why they altered the story away from Jon fulfilling his destiny. It just doesn't make sense. And as I said in my last post, if they knew Dany was going to turn heel then they should have kept the prophecy in tact or at least let Jon kill the Night King. The order will be different in the books, but at least if he had been the savior it is a lot easier to see why people loyal to Dany for years would just switch to Jon even before she went full on villain. The show runners have had very little for-sight in these things. They do things that look cool or for added drama, but those things undermine the story and the ultimate outcome.The thing about the prophecy of R'hllor's religion is, as much as some people want to hang everything on those prophecies, the prophecies always seemed to be wrong.
Stannis was not the Prince Who was Promised. Neither was Jon, it turns out. The weapon of the Prince Who Was Promised that would kill the Night King didn't need to be bathed in the blood of a king.
Heck, even Melisandre's attempts to help in the Battle of Winterfell were useless. The Dothraki fire swords did nothing and neither did lighting the fire in the trenches.
About the only thing the God of Fire did was keep Dondarrion and Jon alive so that the Battle of Winterfell would be won.
Hate to say it but, all those in depth followers that based their idea on what would happen based on the God of Fire prophecies were swerved. Turns out the God of Fire was wrong about a ton of stuff.
Well, at least she correctly prophesized that Arya would kill the Night King, right?
That just doesn't fit with the books at all. The show pretty clearly changed this point, probably for dramatic effect, maybe because of the more modern viewpoint regarding women, or maybe because they just didn't want Jon to have everything go right for him, or some combination thereof. And it just doesn't fit and Arya certainly doesn't fit the actual prophecy at all. The prophecy quite simply isn't about Arya Stark.I don't think that is the case at all. If Mel knew who was going to kill the Night King, she never would have backed Stannis or sacrificed those countless people including his daughter. She was doing that because she believe Stannis was the Prince Who Was Promised. The Prince Who Was Promised was the savior of mankind i.e. the one destined to kill the Night King. This is the show runners just taking some liberties and trying to come up with a logical reason why they altered the story away from Jon fulfilling his destiny. It just doesn't make sense. And as I said in my last post, if they knew Dany was going to turn heel then they should have kept the prophecy in tact or at least let Jon kill the Night King. The order will be different in the books, but at least if he had been the savior it is a lot easier to see why people loyal to Dany for years would just switch to Jon even before she went full on villain. The show runners have had very little for-sight in these things. They do things that look cool or for added drama, but those things undermine the story and the ultimate outcome.The thing about the prophecy of R'hllor's religion is, as much as some people want to hang everything on those prophecies, the prophecies always seemed to be wrong.
Stannis was not the Prince Who was Promised. Neither was Jon, it turns out. The weapon of the Prince Who Was Promised that would kill the Night King didn't need to be bathed in the blood of a king.
Heck, even Melisandre's attempts to help in the Battle of Winterfell were useless. The Dothraki fire swords did nothing and neither did lighting the fire in the trenches.
About the only thing the God of Fire did was keep Dondarrion and Jon alive so that the Battle of Winterfell would be won.
Hate to say it but, all those in depth followers that based their idea on what would happen based on the God of Fire prophecies were swerved. Turns out the God of Fire was wrong about a ton of stuff.
Well, at least she correctly prophesized that Arya would kill the Night King, right?
Sometimes they do things for drama's sake, but I'm not sure this is a good example. Isn't it a theme of the books and the show alike that prophecies are difficult to interpret? A good example is the reveal by Missandei midway through that something everyone "knows" to be true just reflects a mistranslation - Azor Ahai is not necessarily the "prince" who was promised, and may actually refer to a princess. In GoT world as in ours, people believe they understand the true meaning of a prophecy but in fact they've misunderstood it. And who knows; the prophecies may be wrong or may not apply to the situation at hand.
To me, that's central to the show and the books. I continue to wonder why Jon has such a central role in the books; how does his story end? The fact it wasn't what people first expected, to me, fits right in.
And I think Melisandre's arc is consistent. She did believe that Stannis was the prince who was promised. Despite her magic, her age, and her gifts, we see that even she misunderstood what she was being told - or perhaps the Lord of Light was even playing a game with her. She was wrong; it's critical to the character and the story.
As for Arya, my interpretation is not that Melisandre "foresaw" Arya killing the NK from the beginning, but that she got wisps and pieces that she misinterpreted at first but later put together correctly. She saw on first meeting Arya that Arya would close many eyes; much later, in Winterfell, when she sees Beric fall and realizes he's served his purpose, she puts the pieces together and thinks, maybe for the first time, that there may be a new possibility.
I think the last two shows have shown something, that men play a game of thrones but men are but pawns in the game of gods. Gods give men prophecies and lots of possibilities but seldom do they reveal their total knowledge to man.
And that's why R'hllor's prophecies were interpreted so poorly. And that's why Bran could only reveal so much, as he has the knowledge and memories of the Old Gods. And of course, the Night King was the god of death that lived in hell(in Martin's world severe winter replaces an underworld of flame) that rolled down upon the world slowly, taking all in his path, like death would.
Lol
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D54e9nIWAAALmyh.jpg)
Getting sloppy on more than one front as they wind down.
LolWell, if she didnt notice an entire fleet waiting for here from the sky with her dragon, Im not really surprised she didnt see a Starbucks cup on the table right in front of her.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D54e9nIWAAALmyh.jpg)
Getting sloppy on more than one front as they wind down.
I think the last two shows have shown something, that men play a game of thrones but men are but pawns in the game of gods. Gods give men prophecies and lots of possibilities but seldom do they reveal their total knowledge to man.Just doesn't seem plausible. Seems far more likely the show just gave up on that prophecy and that if Martin does ever finish the books, Jon will in fact kill the Night King and fulfill the prophecy.
And that's why R'hllor's prophecies were interpreted so poorly. And that's why Bran could only reveal so much, as he has the knowledge and memories of the Old Gods. And of course, the Night King was the god of death that lived in hell(in Martin's world severe winter replaces an underworld of flame) that rolled down upon the world slowly, taking all in his path, like death would.
Im very surprised people find this season interesting. I think theyve ruined the show.
I think the last two shows have shown something, that men play a game of thrones but men are but pawns in the game of gods. Gods give men prophecies and lots of possibilities but seldom do they reveal their total knowledge to man.Just doesn't seem plausible. Seems far more likely the show just gave up on that prophecy and that if Martin does ever finish the books, Jon will in fact kill the Night King and fulfill the prophecy.
And that's why R'hllor's prophecies were interpreted so poorly. And that's why Bran could only reveal so much, as he has the knowledge and memories of the Old Gods. And of course, the Night King was the god of death that lived in hell(in Martin's world severe winter replaces an underworld of flame) that rolled down upon the world slowly, taking all in his path, like death would.
To that point, I almost think Martin has been sitting on the books waiting for the show to finish. I mean he has already released something like 12 chapters at various points for the next book. I just don't see him releasing that many chapters if he wasn't done with the book (maybe some final editing choices, but basically done). I also think he has most of the final book written in at least some format. I really think he just didn't want to spoil the show by releasing the books. I expect book 6 will come out in early 2020 before the prequels start airing.
Im very surprised people find this season interesting. I think theyve ruined the show.
It's interesting in the way a slow motion car wreck is interesting.
I can't recall watching a show for this long only for the seams to start showing so plainly in the final season.
At this point it feels to me like they're just trying desperately to get to the finish line, no matter how much of a mess they make in getting there.
This is a "land the plane even if all that's left is smoldering debris" sort of final season.
Man I feel bad for Grey Worm. RIP Missandei :(
But honestly its becoming really obvious theyre rushing everything now and the writings been compromised as a result.
The clever characters are getting outsmarted easily and frankly even the dragons have looked weak lately. I mean, they just ambushed Danys Army and killed her dragon + captured Missandei that easily?? Lol.
Yeah it was so dumb. She should have just wrapped the chains around Cersei and flung herself and Cersei off the cliff. The show again going for dramatic effect but leaving all logic out of it.Man I feel bad for Grey Worm. RIP Missandei :(
But honestly its becoming really obvious theyre rushing everything now and the writings been compromised as a result.
The clever characters are getting outsmarted easily and frankly even the dragons have looked weak lately. I mean, they just ambushed Danys Army and killed her dragon + captured Missandei that easily?? Lol.
In that final scene Cersei stood right next to Missandei on the edge of the plaform and turned to face the Mountain to give the order to behead her. Fro a second I thought Missandei was going reach over and pull Cersei off the wall with her rather than just die anyway. It would have been epic.
Wanting to see the end is one reason, but this season has had some of the best visuals and set pieces I've ever seen on TV even as the narrative quality has gone over a cliff. This episode didn't have a ton of that (I hope the "summit" was intended to make Dany seem weak and small because it sure did), but go back and watch Jon's run through Winterfell, just in a vacuum, ignoring how dumb the overall story was. It's brilliantly made and shot. Just an incredible spectacle. Arya's library stealth scene is really well-crafted and -made. I absolutely love the initial shot of the Night King on his dragon where his hand is in focus and his face is blurred with glowing eyes. The dragons (usually) look amazing. From a technical perspective it's really exemplary work, especially for TV.
I just had another thought about those magic gatling guns that Cersei has apparently installed on all her boats and on the walls of King's Landing ...I think Cersei, for all her faults, still does honor the pre-battle meeting and the rules of engagement and that is one of them. Though obviously taking out Drogon probably ends the war, it might turn off people to how she got there and she certainly couldn't sell herself as the virtuous one that she is trying to be if she was violating long standing rules about how things are conducted (same reason she didn't kill her brother).
If Dany and crew were all standing there, in formation, close enough to the walls that they could see what happened to Missandei, why not just fire the crossbow things at Dany and her whole army?
They established earlier in the episode that those crossbow things are so powerful they can shoot a bolt hundreds (thousands?) of feet into the air from over a mile away. So why couldn't they completely destroy Dany's army as soon as they come within sight of the walls?
Qyburn deserves to be the King of the Seven Kingdoms since he's apparently designed and implemented an entire city worth of weapons that are as effective and accurate as modern anti-aircraft guns.
My issue is that, for me, these great moments are undercut by the nonsense that the show engages in to set up those moments.
Like, Rhaegal getting shot out of the sky this week -- quite a memorable moment.
Does it make much sense? No, it doesn't.
How far away were those boats? A mile? Two miles? And they shot those bolts with such force that they were still traveling straight and true and were able to pierce dragonhide?
How is it possible that nobody noticed the entire fleet of ships, yet Dany's fleet and her dragons were apparently exposed long enough that the ballistas were able to get all lined up perfectly to snipe Rhaegal?
I'm left feeling that the only answer is "Don't think about it too hard."
I just had another thought about those magic gatling guns that Cersei has apparently installed on all her boats and on the walls of King's Landing ...I think Cersei, for all her faults, still does honor the pre-battle meeting and the rules of engagement and that is one of them. Though obviously taking out Drogon probably ends the war, it might turn off people to how she got there and she certainly couldn't sell herself as the virtuous one that she is trying to be if she was violating long standing rules about how things are conducted (same reason she didn't kill her brother).
If Dany and crew were all standing there, in formation, close enough to the walls that they could see what happened to Missandei, why not just fire the crossbow things at Dany and her whole army?
They established earlier in the episode that those crossbow things are so powerful they can shoot a bolt hundreds (thousands?) of feet into the air from over a mile away. So why couldn't they completely destroy Dany's army as soon as they come within sight of the walls?
My issue is that, for me, these great moments are undercut by the nonsense that the show engages in to set up those moments.
Like, Rhaegal getting shot out of the sky this week -- quite a memorable moment.
Does it make much sense? No, it doesn't.
How far away were those boats? A mile? Two miles? And they shot those bolts with such force that they were still traveling straight and true and were able to pierce dragonhide?
How is it possible that nobody noticed the entire fleet of ships, yet Dany's fleet and her dragons were apparently exposed long enough that the ballistas were able to get all lined up perfectly to snipe Rhaegal?
I'm left feeling that the only answer is "Don't think about it too hard."
PhoSita, I can somewhat understand your qualms a little bit regarding Rheagal's unlikely death. It just seemed like too rash and illogical of a move. But my takeaway was that it's a result of Dany's over-eagerness to go storm Kings Landing. Everyone wanted her to wait and let the armies rest and heal for a moment after the battle of their lives, yet she insists on pressing onward immediately. Her growing greed is causing her to act irrationally and that was the result. On those grounds, I can accept that.
I just had another thought about those magic gatling guns that Cersei has apparently installed on all her boats and on the walls of King's Landing ...I think Cersei, for all her faults, still does honor the pre-battle meeting and the rules of engagement and that is one of them. Though obviously taking out Drogon probably ends the war, it might turn off people to how she got there and she certainly couldn't sell herself as the virtuous one that she is trying to be if she was violating long standing rules about how things are conducted (same reason she didn't kill her brother).
If Dany and crew were all standing there, in formation, close enough to the walls that they could see what happened to Missandei, why not just fire the crossbow things at Dany and her whole army?
They established earlier in the episode that those crossbow things are so powerful they can shoot a bolt hundreds (thousands?) of feet into the air from over a mile away. So why couldn't they completely destroy Dany's army as soon as they come within sight of the walls?
Qyburn deserves to be the King of the Seven Kingdoms since he's apparently designed and implemented an entire city worth of weapons that are as effective and accurate as modern anti-aircraft guns.
Lol
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D54e9nIWAAALmyh.jpg)
Getting sloppy on more than one front as they wind down.
Wanting to see the end is one reason, but this season has had some of the best visuals and set pieces I've ever seen on TV even as the narrative quality has gone over a cliff. This episode didn't have a ton of that (I hope the "summit" was intended to make Dany seem weak and small because it sure did), but go back and watch Jon's run through Winterfell, just in a vacuum, ignoring how dumb the overall story was. It's brilliantly made and shot. Just an incredible spectacle. Arya's library stealth scene is really well-crafted and -made. I absolutely love the initial shot of the Night King on his dragon where his hand is in focus and his face is blurred with glowing eyes. The dragons (usually) look amazing. From a technical perspective it's really exemplary work, especially for TV.
I don't disagree with this sentiment.
My issue is that, for me, these great moments are undercut by the nonsense that the show engages in to set up those moments.
Fairly convinced that is an intentional viral marketing meme campaign and Starbucks paid them a hefty sum for the product placement. Someone needs to pay for the cgi dragons.
Wanting to see the end is one reason, but this season has had some of the best visuals and set pieces I've ever seen on TV even as the narrative quality has gone over a cliff. This episode didn't have a ton of that (I hope the "summit" was intended to make Dany seem weak and small because it sure did), but go back and watch Jon's run through Winterfell, just in a vacuum, ignoring how dumb the overall story was. It's brilliantly made and shot. Just an incredible spectacle. Arya's library stealth scene is really well-crafted and -made. I absolutely love the initial shot of the Night King on his dragon where his hand is in focus and his face is blurred with glowing eyes. The dragons (usually) look amazing. From a technical perspective it's really exemplary work, especially for TV.
I don't disagree with this sentiment.
My issue is that, for me, these great moments are undercut by the nonsense that the show engages in to set up those moments.
Cut the examples for space but this is a good characterization:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5mMOBsXoAAxesy.jpg)
It's a really cool horse and it's been fun to watch them draw it, but as it's gone on the main features are still being put together but in a cruder, more rushed and less coherent way. To use a different analogy the skeleton of the show is all there in terms of major plot moments and arcs but pretty much as soon as they got past the books the connective tissue turned to sludge.
This is partly the books' fault - remember there's allegedly 2 books back and they haven't even resolved the Mereen situation or given Dany the Dothraki's support. Hell the end of Book 5 jumped forward a bit but freaking Stannis will still be alive and kicking when Book 6 starts. It almost has to be rushed to go through everything left in the narrative. But a lot of it just seems sloppy. Again, all while the technical stuff is better than ever.
I still love my dumb dragon show, it's just been a bummer to see the quality crumble. I try to appreciate what I can while still making fun of it when it deserves it.Fairly convinced that is an intentional viral marketing meme campaign and Starbucks paid them a hefty sum for the product placement. Someone needs to pay for the cgi dragons.
I don't think there's any way that's negotiated without a visible logo.
Yeah it was so dumb. She should have just wrapped the chains around Cersei and flung herself and Cersei off the cliff. The show again going for dramatic effect but leaving all logic out of it.Man I feel bad for Grey Worm. RIP Missandei :(
But honestly its becoming really obvious theyre rushing everything now and the writings been compromised as a result.
The clever characters are getting outsmarted easily and frankly even the dragons have looked weak lately. I mean, they just ambushed Danys Army and killed her dragon + captured Missandei that easily?? Lol.
In that final scene Cersei stood right next to Missandei on the edge of the plaform and turned to face the Mountain to give the order to behead her. Fro a second I thought Missandei was going reach over and pull Cersei off the wall with her rather than just die anyway. It would have been epic.
It wasn't a bad episode but there was a lot of cheesy stuff.Euron's sneak attack was nonsensical and unnecessary. They should have just had Euron's fleet be spotted. Dany would have had every reason to attack his fleet (e.g. defend her own ships/people and destroy the enemy ships/people) and no reason based on passed experience to be overly concerned that the ships posed a threat to her dragons.
Things I didn't like. How quickly the dragon died. How Jamie got together with Sir Brieane. Jon needing to reveal his parents. Sansa being so anti Dany after the battle. Tyrion advising another seat and meet after death of the dragon. Bron just gets in with a bow and gets promised High garden.
Things I liked
Jamie leaving Brie was powerful. Arya turning down Gendry, he is his father's son. Euron on the sneak attack again (but it's unlikely to be possible unless he came out a cove/cave). Grey worm losing Mesiande but should have been at the seas attack. Dany losing her mind. Varys being himself. Tormond being love crushed and drunk.
So Tyrion and Varys are supposedly concerned about the little people and how Dany might use dragonfire to destroy King's landing. Does anyone know what their alternate plan is to defeat Cersei? Maybe I'm missing something but it sounds like they just want to lay siege and hope eventually the starving people will revolt against Cersei. Which is most certainly not a plan with the little people's interest in mind and is also unlikely to actually work.
Jamie is going to kill his sister and bail them out.So Tyrion and Varys are supposedly concerned about the little people and how Dany might use dragonfire to destroy King's landing. Does anyone know what their alternate plan is to defeat Cersei? Maybe I'm missing something but it sounds like they just want to lay siege and hope eventually the starving people will revolt against Cersei. Which is most certainly not a plan with the little people's interest in mind and is also unlikely to actually work.
Just wait for Deus Ex Arya to do her work.
Wanting to see the end is one reason, but this season has had some of the best visuals and set pieces I've ever seen on TV even as the narrative quality has gone over a cliff. This episode didn't have a ton of that (I hope the "summit" was intended to make Dany seem weak and small because it sure did), but go back and watch Jon's run through Winterfell, just in a vacuum, ignoring how dumb the overall story was. It's brilliantly made and shot. Just an incredible spectacle. Arya's library stealth scene is really well-crafted and -made. I absolutely love the initial shot of the Night King on his dragon where his hand is in focus and his face is blurred with glowing eyes. The dragons (usually) look amazing. From a technical perspective it's really exemplary work, especially for TV.
I don't disagree with this sentiment.
My issue is that, for me, these great moments are undercut by the nonsense that the show engages in to set up those moments.
Cut the examples for space but this is a good characterization:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5mMOBsXoAAxesy.jpg)
It's a really cool horse and it's been fun to watch them draw it, but as it's gone on the main features are still being put together but in a cruder, more rushed and less coherent way. To use a different analogy the skeleton of the show is all there in terms of major plot moments and arcs but pretty much as soon as they got past the books the connective tissue turned to sludge.
This is partly the books' fault - remember there's allegedly 2 books back and they haven't even resolved the Mereen situation or given Dany the Dothraki's support. Hell the end of Book 5 jumped forward a bit but freaking Stannis will still be alive and kicking when Book 6 starts. It almost has to be rushed to go through everything left in the narrative. But a lot of it just seems sloppy. Again, all while the technical stuff is better than ever.
I still love my dumb dragon show, it's just been a bummer to see the quality crumble. I try to appreciate what I can while still making fun of it when it deserves it.
Man I feel bad for Grey Worm. RIP Missandei :(
But honestly its becoming really obvious theyre rushing everything now and the writings been compromised as a result.
The clever characters are getting outsmarted easily and frankly even the dragons have looked weak lately. I mean, they just ambushed Danys Army and killed her dragon + captured Missandei that easily?? Lol.
In that final scene Cersei stood right next to Missandei on the edge of the plaform and turned to face the Mountain to give the order to behead her. Fro a second I thought Missandei was going reach over and pull Cersei off the wall with her rather than just die anyway. It would have been epic.
I think the explanation I read was that Missandei is a pacifist so it would be out of character for her to do something like that. Of course that was just fans trying to make sense of the show, when it was clear they wanted the dramatic effect and an additional nudge to send Dany further off the cliff.Man I feel bad for Grey Worm. RIP Missandei :(
But honestly its becoming really obvious theyre rushing everything now and the writings been compromised as a result.
The clever characters are getting outsmarted easily and frankly even the dragons have looked weak lately. I mean, they just ambushed Danys Army and killed her dragon + captured Missandei that easily?? Lol.
In that final scene Cersei stood right next to Missandei on the edge of the plaform and turned to face the Mountain to give the order to behead her. Fro a second I thought Missandei was going reach over and pull Cersei off the wall with her rather than just die anyway. It would have been epic.
TP, I was thinking the exact same thing. I still have no idea why she didn't just grab Cersei and plunge together, or push her. It was pretty maddening, kind of like the very slow Melisandra walk to light the trench in episode 3. I'm all for the suspension of reality in a fantasy realm, but the characters can be illogical in these late seasons.
You're right that the books left the showrunners in a bind.
I would say that the fact that Martin is having such trouble finishing the last two books tells you that even the guy writing the source material is somewhat at a loss as to how to resolve all of this stuff in a satisfying and coherent way.
And I've seen so many articles about them making Dany a villain turn is basically anti-woman. Of course the problem with that line of thinking is Dany has always been a villain. I mean just go back to season 1 where she gleefully watches her husband poor molten gold on her brother and kill him. She is a ruthless killer that relishes in making her perceived enemies suffer (and I do mean perceived enemies i.e. people like the Tarley's). She has always ever wanted one thing and has done everything and anything to achieve that goal (even her trip up north was meant as a way of securing a large part of the 7 Kingdoms as allies). The simple truth is Dany has always been best suited as a conquistador i.e. a ruthless killing machine. She was never suited to truly lead and certainly not lead in a peaceful kingdom (which is where this is ending up). She was a strong powerful women which blinded many to the simple fact that she is a villain cut from the same cloth as Cersei. They are basically one in the same, different backgrounds but similar ambition.
The show is clearly rushing her full-on Mad Queen persona because they have to, but this path has been apparent from the beginning and isn't just some new development.
I think the explanation I read was that Missandei is a pacifist so it would be out of character for her to do something like that. Of course that was just fans trying to make sense of the show, when it was clear they wanted the dramatic effect and an additional nudge to send Dany further off the cliff.Man I feel bad for Grey Worm. RIP Missandei :(
But honestly its becoming really obvious theyre rushing everything now and the writings been compromised as a result.
The clever characters are getting outsmarted easily and frankly even the dragons have looked weak lately. I mean, they just ambushed Danys Army and killed her dragon + captured Missandei that easily?? Lol.
In that final scene Cersei stood right next to Missandei on the edge of the plaform and turned to face the Mountain to give the order to behead her. Fro a second I thought Missandei was going reach over and pull Cersei off the wall with her rather than just die anyway. It would have been epic.
TP, I was thinking the exact same thing. I still have no idea why she didn't just grab Cersei and plunge together, or push her. It was pretty maddening, kind of like the very slow Melisandra walk to light the trench in episode 3. I'm all for the suspension of reality in a fantasy realm, but the characters can be illogical in these late seasons.
It wasn't a bad episode but there was a lot of cheesy stuff.Euron's sneak attack was nonsensical and unnecessary. They should have just had Euron's fleet be spotted. Dany would have had every reason to attack his fleet (e.g. defend her own ships/people and destroy the enemy ships/people) and no reason based on passed experience to be overly concerned that the ships posed a threat to her dragons.
Things I didn't like. How quickly the dragon died. How Jamie got together with Sir Brieane. Jon needing to reveal his parents. Sansa being so anti Dany after the battle. Tyrion advising another seat and meet after death of the dragon. Bron just gets in with a bow and gets promised High garden.
Things I liked
Jamie leaving Brie was powerful. Arya turning down Gendry, he is his father's son. Euron on the sneak attack again (but it's unlikely to be possible unless he came out a cove/cave). Grey worm losing Mesiande but should have been at the seas attack. Dany losing her mind. Varys being himself. Tormond being love crushed and drunk.
Varys was being himself but so was Tyrion. Sansa played Tyrion like a fiddle. I was so hoping Bron would kill Tyrion but at least the punch in the nose was funny. Then Cersei has a chance to kill Tyrion and doesn't follow through. Now I've got to hope Tyrion becomes dragon food for plotting against Dany. The funny part of the Varys and Tyrion discussion was that they think Dany and Jon marriage option wouldn't work because she is too strong willed for Jon.
eh, most of those story lines aren't that hard to resolve in fairly short order.You're right that the books left the showrunners in a bind.
I would say that the fact that Martin is having such trouble finishing the last two books tells you that even the guy writing the source material is somewhat at a loss as to how to resolve all of this stuff in a satisfying and coherent way.
I went back and skimmed around in the last books and man - Jon is still dead and Tyrion is just in the process of escaping slavery and hasn't met Dany and there's a fake Aegon with some new characters around him who's already invaded Westeros and the Martell guy actually has some specific secret plans and Myrcella got an ear cut off but is still kicking around and the resurrected Cat Stark has caught Jaime and there's another Greyjoy uncle with a badass fire magic lava hand and and and...yeah nobody's wrapping that up in 2 books without a LOT of cutting corners or like 1500 pages each. Dude built a great sandbox and got way too caught up with playing around in it.
eh, most of those story lines aren't that hard to resolve in fairly short order.You're right that the books left the showrunners in a bind.
I would say that the fact that Martin is having such trouble finishing the last two books tells you that even the guy writing the source material is somewhat at a loss as to how to resolve all of this stuff in a satisfying and coherent way.
I went back and skimmed around in the last books and man - Jon is still dead and Tyrion is just in the process of escaping slavery and hasn't met Dany and there's a fake Aegon with some new characters around him who's already invaded Westeros and the Martell guy actually has some specific secret plans and Myrcella got an ear cut off but is still kicking around and the resurrected Cat Stark has caught Jaime and there's another Greyjoy uncle with a badass fire magic lava hand and and and...yeah nobody's wrapping that up in 2 books without a LOT of cutting corners or like 1500 pages each. Dude built a great sandbox and got way too caught up with playing around in it.
well that to, a dance with dragons was over 1000 pages.eh, most of those story lines aren't that hard to resolve in fairly short order.You're right that the books left the showrunners in a bind.
I would say that the fact that Martin is having such trouble finishing the last two books tells you that even the guy writing the source material is somewhat at a loss as to how to resolve all of this stuff in a satisfying and coherent way.
I went back and skimmed around in the last books and man - Jon is still dead and Tyrion is just in the process of escaping slavery and hasn't met Dany and there's a fake Aegon with some new characters around him who's already invaded Westeros and the Martell guy actually has some specific secret plans and Myrcella got an ear cut off but is still kicking around and the resurrected Cat Stark has caught Jaime and there's another Greyjoy uncle with a badass fire magic lava hand and and and...yeah nobody's wrapping that up in 2 books without a LOT of cutting corners or like 1500 pages each. Dude built a great sandbox and got way too caught up with playing around in it.
Also, would a couple of 1500 page books be all that surprising?
You're right that the books left the showrunners in a bind.
I would say that the fact that Martin is having such trouble finishing the last two books tells you that even the guy writing the source material is somewhat at a loss as to how to resolve all of this stuff in a satisfying and coherent way.
I went back and skimmed around in the last books and man - Jon is still dead and Tyrion is just in the process of escaping slavery and hasn't met Dany and there's a fake Aegon with some new characters around him who's already invaded Westeros and the Martell guy actually has some specific secret plans and Myrcella got an ear cut off but is still kicking around and the resurrected Cat Stark has caught Jaime and there's another Greyjoy uncle with a badass fire magic lava hand and and and...yeah nobody's wrapping that up in 2 books without a LOT of cutting corners or like 1500 pages each. Dude built a great sandbox and got way too caught up with playing around in it.
Also, would a couple of 1500 page books be all that surprising?well that to, a dance with dragons was over 1000 pages.
https://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/tv/a27378413/tyrion-cersei-iron-throne-baby-theory/?utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCOS&utm_medium=social-media
Dont judge me on the link (lol); I saw it on Facebook. But this is something that could play a major role in the conflict moving forward. From Eurons perspective who just found out that Cersei was pregnant with his supposed kid, Tyrion should not have any knowledge of her pregnancy, in fact, no one in the north should.
I think once Euron connects those dots he could turn on Cersei and be an integral part of beating her, though it still does seem likely that one of Tyrion or Jamie kills her per the prophecy, or even Arya given her list.
https://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/tv/a27378413/tyrion-cersei-iron-throne-baby-theory/?utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCOS&utm_medium=social-mediaI had that same thought. However, it is not exactly clear on timing from when Euron found out to when the meeting occurred. You know Euron would have been crowing about it once he found out and word would spread fast.
Dont judge me on the link (lol); I saw it on Facebook. But this is something that could play a major role in the conflict moving forward. From Eurons perspective who just found out that Cersei was pregnant with his supposed kid, Tyrion should not have any knowledge of her pregnancy, in fact, no one in the north should.
I think once Euron connects those dots he could turn on Cersei and be an integral part of beating her, though it still does seem likely that one of Tyrion or Jamie kills her per the prophecy, or even Arya given her list.
I agree it looks silly. However all of Euron's ships had scorpions and the shot was done in closeup so you could explain it away by saying all the ships fired and you just didn't see the misses.It wasn't a bad episode but there was a lot of cheesy stuff.Euron's sneak attack was nonsensical and unnecessary. They should have just had Euron's fleet be spotted. Dany would have had every reason to attack his fleet (e.g. defend her own ships/people and destroy the enemy ships/people) and no reason based on passed experience to be overly concerned that the ships posed a threat to her dragons.
Things I didn't like. How quickly the dragon died. How Jamie got together with Sir Brieane. Jon needing to reveal his parents. Sansa being so anti Dany after the battle. Tyrion advising another seat and meet after death of the dragon. Bron just gets in with a bow and gets promised High garden.
Things I liked
Jamie leaving Brie was powerful. Arya turning down Gendry, he is his father's son. Euron on the sneak attack again (but it's unlikely to be possible unless he came out a cove/cave). Grey worm losing Mesiande but should have been at the seas attack. Dany losing her mind. Varys being himself. Tormond being love crushed and drunk.
Varys was being himself but so was Tyrion. Sansa played Tyrion like a fiddle. I was so hoping Bron would kill Tyrion but at least the punch in the nose was funny. Then Cersei has a chance to kill Tyrion and doesn't follow through. Now I've got to hope Tyrion becomes dragon food for plotting against Dany. The funny part of the Varys and Tyrion discussion was that they think Dany and Jon marriage option wouldn't work because she is too strong willed for Jon.
Shooting a giant metal arrow from a ship at sea on a moving platform with high wind into a quickly flying dragon at an upward trajectory from behind a mountain and you hit 3-3. Talk about fantasy...
And I've seen so many articles about them making Dany a villain turn is basically anti-woman. Of course the problem with that line of thinking is Dany has always been a villain. I mean just go back to season 1 where she gleefully watches her husband poor molten gold on her brother and kill him. She is a ruthless killer that relishes in making her perceived enemies suffer (and I do mean perceived enemies i.e. people like the Tarley's). She has always ever wanted one thing and has done everything and anything to achieve that goal (even her trip up north was meant as a way of securing a large part of the 7 Kingdoms as allies). The simple truth is Dany has always been best suited as a conquistador i.e. a ruthless killing machine. She was never suited to truly lead and certainly not lead in a peaceful kingdom (which is where this is ending up). She was a strong powerful women which blinded many to the simple fact that she is a villain cut from the same cloth as Cersei. They are basically one in the same, different backgrounds but similar ambition.That's absolute nonsense. Dany arguably has done more good than anyone. Her brother was vile, abusive and weak. He sold Dany, his sister, to Khal Drogo to get his support to take the Iron Throne. Even so, Dany still protected him for a while even though he continued to be abusive. As for his golden crown, she wasn't gleeful although she had every right to be. She just recognized her brother wasn't a true dragon and wasn't fit for the Iron Throne.
The show is clearly rushing her full-on Mad Queen persona because they have to, but this path has been apparent from the beginning and isn't just some new development.
There is a lot here I just disagree with and frankly is wrong but the Tarley's absolutely did not have to die. There was no reason at all to wipe out an entire house. You need lords to rule. Remember she was an invading army with Dothraki barbarians and dragons decimating people. You don't get undying loyalty when you are the invader (heck even when you aren't you don't wipe out lords - you know like Edmure Tully is still alive because the Lannisters understand this principal). It was a stupid request and killing them was stupid. It was unnecessary. It is also significantly different then serving justice for those that broke laws (like with what Jon and Ned did). The Tarley's broke no laws, they were serving their ruler and defending their kingdom from an invading horde. You don't kill people in that situation once you've won. That instills fear not loyalty and is a strategy that rarely works as eventually people in fear rebel.And I've seen so many articles about them making Dany a villain turn is basically anti-woman. Of course the problem with that line of thinking is Dany has always been a villain. I mean just go back to season 1 where she gleefully watches her husband poor molten gold on her brother and kill him. She is a ruthless killer that relishes in making her perceived enemies suffer (and I do mean perceived enemies i.e. people like the Tarley's). She has always ever wanted one thing and has done everything and anything to achieve that goal (even her trip up north was meant as a way of securing a large part of the 7 Kingdoms as allies). The simple truth is Dany has always been best suited as a conquistador i.e. a ruthless killing machine. She was never suited to truly lead and certainly not lead in a peaceful kingdom (which is where this is ending up). She was a strong powerful women which blinded many to the simple fact that she is a villain cut from the same cloth as Cersei. They are basically one in the same, different backgrounds but similar ambition.That's absolute nonsense. Dany arguably has done more good than anyone. Her brother was vile, abusive and weak. He sold Dany, his sister, to Khal Drogo to get his support to take the Iron Throne. Even so, Dany still protected him for a while even though he continued to be abusive. As for his golden crown, she wasn't gleeful although she had every right to be. She just recognized her brother wasn't a true dragon and wasn't fit for the Iron Throne.
The show is clearly rushing her full-on Mad Queen persona because they have to, but this path has been apparent from the beginning and isn't just some new development.
When Dany took over, she put an end to the Dothraki raping and pillaging. When Dany "bought" the Unsullied, she immediately freed them and immediately said they could leave if they desired. Dany freed the slaves in 3 cities even though it detracted from her quest for the Iron Throne. If she was only focused on the Iron Throne, she would have taken the slaver's deal to get more men and ships. When she got to Westeros, she made Yara pledge that the Iron Born would give up their pillaging. Dany clearly went North for Jon and it has cost her dearly. If she's as bad as you say, she wouldn't have listened to Tyrion's dumb plans. She would have just attacked King's Landing and burned it to the ground if necessary.
Is Dany hard and sometimes brutal? Most definitely but that is what is sometimes required of a ruler, or anyone, in GOT. Dany killing the Tarley's was brutal but it was also necessary. What was she supposed to do start a prisoner of war camp? What was Jon when killed the Nigh****ch traitors including Olly who was just a kid? Brutal and hard. What was Ned when he killed the Nigh****ch runaway? Brutal and hard. The people who aren't brutal and hard end up dead.
It amazes me how Cersei is so vilified when she's not close to being the worst villain on the show.
Idk Tarleys turning on the High Garden after what Cersei pulled is wrong and maybe Dany didn't see that they needed a second chance seeing both fought against people they were sworn to. As we have see region loyalty usually comes before the crown and given the circumstances Cersei was in the wrong against their people. Also Dany was avenging a person who told her to be a dragon.There is a lot here I just disagree with and frankly is wrong but the Tarley's absolutely did not have to die. There was no reason at all to wipe out an entire house. You need lords to rule. Remember she was an invading army with Dothraki barbarians and dragons decimating people. You don't get undying loyalty when you are the invader (heck even when you aren't you don't wipe out lords - you know like Edmure Tully is still alive because the Lannisters understand this principal). It was a stupid request and killing them was stupid. It was unnecessary. It is also significantly different then serving justice for those that broke laws (like with what Jon and Ned did). The Tarley's broke no laws, they were serving their ruler and defending their kingdom from an invading horde. You don't kill people in that situation once you've won. That instills fear not loyalty and is a strategy that rarely works as eventually people in fear rebel.And I've seen so many articles about them making Dany a villain turn is basically anti-woman. Of course the problem with that line of thinking is Dany has always been a villain. I mean just go back to season 1 where she gleefully watches her husband poor molten gold on her brother and kill him. She is a ruthless killer that relishes in making her perceived enemies suffer (and I do mean perceived enemies i.e. people like the Tarley's). She has always ever wanted one thing and has done everything and anything to achieve that goal (even her trip up north was meant as a way of securing a large part of the 7 Kingdoms as allies). The simple truth is Dany has always been best suited as a conquistador i.e. a ruthless killing machine. She was never suited to truly lead and certainly not lead in a peaceful kingdom (which is where this is ending up). She was a strong powerful women which blinded many to the simple fact that she is a villain cut from the same cloth as Cersei. They are basically one in the same, different backgrounds but similar ambition.That's absolute nonsense. Dany arguably has done more good than anyone. Her brother was vile, abusive and weak. He sold Dany, his sister, to Khal Drogo to get his support to take the Iron Throne. Even so, Dany still protected him for a while even though he continued to be abusive. As for his golden crown, she wasn't gleeful although she had every right to be. She just recognized her brother wasn't a true dragon and wasn't fit for the Iron Throne.
The show is clearly rushing her full-on Mad Queen persona because they have to, but this path has been apparent from the beginning and isn't just some new development.
When Dany took over, she put an end to the Dothraki raping and pillaging. When Dany "bought" the Unsullied, she immediately freed them and immediately said they could leave if they desired. Dany freed the slaves in 3 cities even though it detracted from her quest for the Iron Throne. If she was only focused on the Iron Throne, she would have taken the slaver's deal to get more men and ships. When she got to Westeros, she made Yara pledge that the Iron Born would give up their pillaging. Dany clearly went North for Jon and it has cost her dearly. If she's as bad as you say, she wouldn't have listened to Tyrion's dumb plans. She would have just attacked King's Landing and burned it to the ground if necessary.
Is Dany hard and sometimes brutal? Most definitely but that is what is sometimes required of a ruler, or anyone, in GOT. Dany killing the Tarley's was brutal but it was also necessary. What was she supposed to do start a prisoner of war camp? What was Jon when killed the Nigh****ch traitors including Olly who was just a kid? Brutal and hard. What was Ned when he killed the Nigh****ch runaway? Brutal and hard. The people who aren't brutal and hard end up dead.
It amazes me how Cersei is so vilified when she's not close to being the worst villain on the show.
I just disagree with and frankly is wrong but the Tarley's absolutely did not have to die
There was no reason at all to wipe out an entire house
Primogeniture (English: /praɪməˈdʒɛnɪtʃər/) is the right, by law or custom, of the firstborn legitimate son to inherit his parent's entire or main estate, in preference to shared inheritance among all or some children, a child other than the eldest male, a daughter, illegitimate child or a collateral relative. In some cases the estate may instead be the inheritance of the firstborn child or occasionally the firstborn daughter. The descendant (often the son) of a deceased elder sibling (typically elder brother) inherits before a living younger sibling by right of substitution for the deceased heir. In the absence of any children, brothers succeed, individually, to the inheritance by seniority of age (subject to substitution). Among siblings, sons usually inherit before daughters. In the absence of male descendants in the male-line, there are variations of primogeniture which allocate the inheritance to a daughter or a brother or, in the absence of either, to another collateral relative, in a specified order (e.g. male-preference primogeniture, Salic primogeniture, semi-Salic primogeniture).
The principle has applied in history to inheritance of real property (land) as well as inherited titles and offices, most notably monarchies, continuing until modified or abolished.
Is Dany hard and sometimes brutal? Most definitely but that is what is sometimes required of a ruler, or anyone, in GOT. Dany killing the Tarley's was brutal but it was also necessary. What was she supposed to do start a prisoner of war camp? What was Jon when killed the Nigh****ch traitors including Olly who was just a kid? Brutal and hard. What was Ned when he killed the Nigh****ch runaway? Brutal and hard. The people who aren't brutal and hard end up dead.
In addressing the question of whether it is better to be loved or feared, Machiavelli writes, The answer is that one would like to be both the one and the other; but because it is difficult to combine them, it is far safer to be feared than loved if you cannot be both. As Machiavelli asserts, commitments made in peace are not always kept in adversity; however, commitments made in fear are kept out of fear. Yet, a prince must ensure that he is not feared to the point of hatred, which is very possible.
Historys filled with terrible military leaders. Quintilius Varus, Horatio Gates, Ambrose Burnside, George A. Custer, Sir Douglas Haig, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Saddam Hussein come to mind. But I would offer up two more. Daenerys Targaryen, Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains, etc. and Jon Snow, Warden of the North.
In Season 8 of Game of Thrones we have seen these two military leaders in action and I must say that Im kind of shocked at their poor generalship certainly where tactics comes into play. They have fought in two major engagements so far, the Battle Of Winterfell, and the naval expedition to Dragonstone. Lets examine how they did, shall we?
First of all, lets dissect the fight to defend Winterfell from the onslaught of the Army of the Dead. The strategy centered around a defense-in-depth approach with the main impediment to the enemy being the fortress of Winterfell itself. And yet, they mustered their combined armies out in the open and, worse, placed their catapults up front, rather than safely behind the walls where they could unleash a storm of flaming projectiles unimpeded at the charging dead. The catapults were soon captured and rendered useless. In effect, Daenerys and Snow gave up their heavy artillery in the first few minutes of the battle.
And before the engagement even got properly underway, they prematurely unleashed the Dothraki cavalry in a foolish charge right out of the Light Brigade against an enemy whose strength was unknown and hidden under the cloak of night. Although it made for stunning cinematic imagery, the outcome was to be expected. The Dothraki, in effect light cavalry (not heavily armored knights with lances) were overwhelmed and cut to ribbons. It would have been best to save them for a counterblow, an encircling maneuver ala Hannibal at Cannae, or some sort of coup de grace chase.
And what of the phalanxes of infantry spearheaded by the Unsullied and supported by Wildlings and Northmen? Why were they arrayed outside the castle? Would it not have been better to keep them back within the protection of the citadel manning the walls and preventing the Dead from climbing over the top? How much more effective of a defense would these soldiers have mounted by fighting from behind high battlements rather than out in the open plain facing an attacking force that greatly outnumbered them? (I guess the writers never considered the plight of the Union XI Corps at Gettysburg which, when compelled to defend flat, open terrain against superior numbers, was routed in an hour).
As for the flaming trench, it was a good idea. So why didnt they dig several? They could have presented the Dead with not one but two or three rivers of fire to overcome. And each time they faced another burning moat, their advance wouldve been blunted and the defenders wouldve had the Dead right where they wanted them: exposed in the open and pinned against the flames in a stationary position. That wouldve been the moment for catapults, archers with flaming arrows, and, of course, two dragons to do their worst. And those who eventually would make it through the deathtraps then wouldve had to climb the high walls and face a rested, fully intact army ready to beat them back from behind the protection of stone battlements. (Oh, and no flaming oil guys?)
Ultimately none of this would have mattered anyway not when it just took one assassin girl with a dragon glass dagger to end the combat with one stab. Given that, what was the use of all that sacrifice? The fiercest cavalry in Westeros was decimated while its most disciplined army severely bloodied. The bottom line is this: but for the pint-sized Arya Stark and her magic blade, Daenerys and Jons defense of Winterfell would have resulted in a massacre.
Not to be outdone in their blundering tactics, our aunt-nephew tag-team doubled down on stupidity. First they ignored Sansas sound advice and gave their bloodied and exhausted army no time to rest, resupply, or recover from wounds. Instead they marched and sailed pell-mell for Kings Landing.
Now, Im not sure what military textbooks they were reading, but its usually advisable that when you go on the offensive you do some recon to get the lay of the land and find out whats waiting for you out there over the hill. And along with well-placed spies and scouts, whats the best way to gather intelligence of enemy strength and dispositions? Aerial reconnaissance. Oh well, this was the age before drones. Still, if only they had some sort of flyinghey! Wait a minute. Heres an idea. Maybe Daenerys or Jon shouldve hopped on a dragon and done a fly-over of the area they planned on attacking. See what was in store for them like, oh I dunno, a Kracken fleet with giant dragon-killing cross-bows?
Its also a good idea to remember what weapons your enemy possesses Daenerys already knew the Lannisters had good anti-dragon technology from the attack on their wagon train when Bron almost took one out. (A cautionary reminder from Jamie before they set off would have been nice). One would expect that Cersei, and certainly Qyburn, wouldve had their masons feverishly constructing more of these dragon-killers which they apparently did. So, given what she already knew about their ack-ack technology and having already lost one to the Night Kings ground fire why would Daenerys fly her two remaining dragons, her most precious military assets, just a few hundred feet off the ground when a thousand wouldve kept them well out of harms way and offered a much better prospect of the surrounding countryside and any nasty surprises awaiting her ships around the next bend?
Once Eurons surprise attack was underway, and hed taken out one dragon half of his enemys air force all Daenerys needed to do was fly her remaining dragon very high, mindful to stay out of range, and then swoop around the rear of the fleet and gone all Dracarus! on them. She must have seen from her vantage point that the cross-bows were only mounted on the bow of Eurons ships, and thus were their sterns completely vulnerable. Its not like the warships couldve come about quicker than a dragon wouldve circled around the back and swooped in for the kill. I guess Daenerys never heard of the classic flanking maneuver as old as warfare itself?
So. The score stands at Common Sense 2, the Targaryen duo 0. Am I being too harsh? Perhaps. Even historys greatest captains suffered defeats. Thus its my hope that team Targaryen will learn from their mistakes and fight the next battle only after a serious perusal of Sun-Tzus Art Of War. Otherwise my moneys on the Lannisters. We shall see.
This nails the terrible military tactics on display:QuoteHistorys filled with terrible military leaders. Quintilius Varus, Horatio Gates, Ambrose Burnside, George A. Custer, Sir Douglas Haig, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Saddam Hussein come to mind. But I would offer up two more. Daenerys Targaryen, Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains, etc. and Jon Snow, Warden of the North.
In Season 8 of Game of Thrones we have seen these two military leaders in action and I must say that Im kind of shocked at their poor generalship certainly where tactics comes into play. They have fought in two major engagements so far, the Battle Of Winterfell, and the naval expedition to Dragonstone. Lets examine how they did, shall we?
First of all, lets dissect the fight to defend Winterfell from the onslaught of the Army of the Dead. The strategy centered around a defense-in-depth approach with the main impediment to the enemy being the fortress of Winterfell itself. And yet, they mustered their combined armies out in the open and, worse, placed their catapults up front, rather than safely behind the walls where they could unleash a storm of flaming projectiles unimpeded at the charging dead. The catapults were soon captured and rendered useless. In effect, Daenerys and Snow gave up their heavy artillery in the first few minutes of the battle.
And before the engagement even got properly underway, they prematurely unleashed the Dothraki cavalry in a foolish charge right out of the Light Brigade against an enemy whose strength was unknown and hidden under the cloak of night. Although it made for stunning cinematic imagery, the outcome was to be expected. The Dothraki, in effect light cavalry (not heavily armored knights with lances) were overwhelmed and cut to ribbons. It would have been best to save them for a counterblow, an encircling maneuver ala Hannibal at Cannae, or some sort of coup de grace chase.
And what of the phalanxes of infantry spearheaded by the Unsullied and supported by Wildlings and Northmen? Why were they arrayed outside the castle? Would it not have been better to keep them back within the protection of the citadel manning the walls and preventing the Dead from climbing over the top? How much more effective of a defense would these soldiers have mounted by fighting from behind high battlements rather than out in the open plain facing an attacking force that greatly outnumbered them? (I guess the writers never considered the plight of the Union XI Corps at Gettysburg which, when compelled to defend flat, open terrain against superior numbers, was routed in an hour).
As for the flaming trench, it was a good idea. So why didnt they dig several? They could have presented the Dead with not one but two or three rivers of fire to overcome. And each time they faced another burning moat, their advance wouldve been blunted and the defenders wouldve had the Dead right where they wanted them: exposed in the open and pinned against the flames in a stationary position. That wouldve been the moment for catapults, archers with flaming arrows, and, of course, two dragons to do their worst. And those who eventually would make it through the deathtraps then wouldve had to climb the high walls and face a rested, fully intact army ready to beat them back from behind the protection of stone battlements. (Oh, and no flaming oil guys?)
Ultimately none of this would have mattered anyway not when it just took one assassin girl with a dragon glass dagger to end the combat with one stab. Given that, what was the use of all that sacrifice? The fiercest cavalry in Westeros was decimated while its most disciplined army severely bloodied. The bottom line is this: but for the pint-sized Arya Stark and her magic blade, Daenerys and Jons defense of Winterfell would have resulted in a massacre.
Not to be outdone in their blundering tactics, our aunt-nephew tag-team doubled down on stupidity. First they ignored Sansas sound advice and gave their bloodied and exhausted army no time to rest, resupply, or recover from wounds. Instead they marched and sailed pell-mell for Kings Landing.
Now, Im not sure what military textbooks they were reading, but its usually advisable that when you go on the offensive you do some recon to get the lay of the land and find out whats waiting for you out there over the hill. And along with well-placed spies and scouts, whats the best way to gather intelligence of enemy strength and dispositions? Aerial reconnaissance. Oh well, this was the age before drones. Still, if only they had some sort of flyinghey! Wait a minute. Heres an idea. Maybe Daenerys or Jon shouldve hopped on a dragon and done a fly-over of the area they planned on attacking. See what was in store for them like, oh I dunno, a Kracken fleet with giant dragon-killing cross-bows?
Its also a good idea to remember what weapons your enemy possesses Daenerys already knew the Lannisters had good anti-dragon technology from the attack on their wagon train when Bron almost took one out. (A cautionary reminder from Jamie before they set off would have been nice). One would expect that Cersei, and certainly Qyburn, wouldve had their masons feverishly constructing more of these dragon-killers which they apparently did. So, given what she already knew about their ack-ack technology and having already lost one to the Night Kings ground fire why would Daenerys fly her two remaining dragons, her most precious military assets, just a few hundred feet off the ground when a thousand wouldve kept them well out of harms way and offered a much better prospect of the surrounding countryside and any nasty surprises awaiting her ships around the next bend?
Once Eurons surprise attack was underway, and hed taken out one dragon half of his enemys air force all Daenerys needed to do was fly her remaining dragon very high, mindful to stay out of range, and then swoop around the rear of the fleet and gone all Dracarus! on them. She must have seen from her vantage point that the cross-bows were only mounted on the bow of Eurons ships, and thus were their sterns completely vulnerable. Its not like the warships couldve come about quicker than a dragon wouldve circled around the back and swooped in for the kill. I guess Daenerys never heard of the classic flanking maneuver as old as warfare itself?
So. The score stands at Common Sense 2, the Targaryen duo 0. Am I being too harsh? Perhaps. Even historys greatest captains suffered defeats. Thus its my hope that team Targaryen will learn from their mistakes and fight the next battle only after a serious perusal of Sun-Tzus Art Of War. Otherwise my moneys on the Lannisters. We shall see.
This nails the terrible military tactics on display:
You don't need the lords to rule. At least not in their current form. They're responsible for all the suffering with their fight for power. Most of the houses have already been decimated from the years of fighting. If you actually want to break the wheel, you start by taking away power from the lords.There is a lot here I just disagree with and frankly is wrong but the Tarley's absolutely did not have to die. There was no reason at all to wipe out an entire house. You need lords to rule. Remember she was an invading army with Dothraki barbarians and dragons decimating people. You don't get undying loyalty when you are the invader (heck even when you aren't you don't wipe out lords - you know like Edmure Tully is still alive because the Lannisters understand this principal). It was a stupid request and killing them was stupid. It was unnecessary. It is also significantly different then serving justice for those that broke laws (like with what Jon and Ned did). The Tarley's broke no laws, they were serving their ruler and defending their kingdom from an invading horde. You don't kill people in that situation once you've won. That instills fear not loyalty and is a strategy that rarely works as eventually people in fear rebel.And I've seen so many articles about them making Dany a villain turn is basically anti-woman. Of course the problem with that line of thinking is Dany has always been a villain. I mean just go back to season 1 where she gleefully watches her husband poor molten gold on her brother and kill him. She is a ruthless killer that relishes in making her perceived enemies suffer (and I do mean perceived enemies i.e. people like the Tarley's). She has always ever wanted one thing and has done everything and anything to achieve that goal (even her trip up north was meant as a way of securing a large part of the 7 Kingdoms as allies). The simple truth is Dany has always been best suited as a conquistador i.e. a ruthless killing machine. She was never suited to truly lead and certainly not lead in a peaceful kingdom (which is where this is ending up). She was a strong powerful women which blinded many to the simple fact that she is a villain cut from the same cloth as Cersei. They are basically one in the same, different backgrounds but similar ambition.That's absolute nonsense. Dany arguably has done more good than anyone. Her brother was vile, abusive and weak. He sold Dany, his sister, to Khal Drogo to get his support to take the Iron Throne. Even so, Dany still protected him for a while even though he continued to be abusive. As for his golden crown, she wasn't gleeful although she had every right to be. She just recognized her brother wasn't a true dragon and wasn't fit for the Iron Throne.
The show is clearly rushing her full-on Mad Queen persona because they have to, but this path has been apparent from the beginning and isn't just some new development.
When Dany took over, she put an end to the Dothraki raping and pillaging. When Dany "bought" the Unsullied, she immediately freed them and immediately said they could leave if they desired. Dany freed the slaves in 3 cities even though it detracted from her quest for the Iron Throne. If she was only focused on the Iron Throne, she would have taken the slaver's deal to get more men and ships. When she got to Westeros, she made Yara pledge that the Iron Born would give up their pillaging. Dany clearly went North for Jon and it has cost her dearly. If she's as bad as you say, she wouldn't have listened to Tyrion's dumb plans. She would have just attacked King's Landing and burned it to the ground if necessary.
Is Dany hard and sometimes brutal? Most definitely but that is what is sometimes required of a ruler, or anyone, in GOT. Dany killing the Tarley's was brutal but it was also necessary. What was she supposed to do start a prisoner of war camp? What was Jon when killed the Nigh****ch traitors including Olly who was just a kid? Brutal and hard. What was Ned when he killed the Nigh****ch runaway? Brutal and hard. The people who aren't brutal and hard end up dead.
It amazes me how Cersei is so vilified when she's not close to being the worst villain on the show.
The thing is, Dany didn't kill Randyll because he broke his oath to the Tyrell's (and let's be clear he broke his oath to someone committing a mutiny to side with the ultimate ruler), she killed him because he wouldn't bend the knee. That is a terrible reason to kill someone, especially when you are an invader and as you say not yet the ruler of the kingdom. It is certainly no reason to kill Dickon either. And let's be clear burning someone alive (and then presumably letting your dragons eat them) is about as inhumane way to kill someone as possible. Dany has always been a villain. It is far more clear in the books than the show, but she is a villain. This isn't some strange turn the show is making willy nilly at the last minute. they are absolutely accelerating the villain turn, but a villain she has always been.You don't need the lords to rule. At least not in their current form. They're responsible for all the suffering with their fight for power. Most of the houses have already been decimated from the years of fighting. If you actually want to break the wheel, you start by taking away power from the lords.There is a lot here I just disagree with and frankly is wrong but the Tarley's absolutely did not have to die. There was no reason at all to wipe out an entire house. You need lords to rule. Remember she was an invading army with Dothraki barbarians and dragons decimating people. You don't get undying loyalty when you are the invader (heck even when you aren't you don't wipe out lords - you know like Edmure Tully is still alive because the Lannisters understand this principal). It was a stupid request and killing them was stupid. It was unnecessary. It is also significantly different then serving justice for those that broke laws (like with what Jon and Ned did). The Tarley's broke no laws, they were serving their ruler and defending their kingdom from an invading horde. You don't kill people in that situation once you've won. That instills fear not loyalty and is a strategy that rarely works as eventually people in fear rebel.And I've seen so many articles about them making Dany a villain turn is basically anti-woman. Of course the problem with that line of thinking is Dany has always been a villain. I mean just go back to season 1 where she gleefully watches her husband poor molten gold on her brother and kill him. She is a ruthless killer that relishes in making her perceived enemies suffer (and I do mean perceived enemies i.e. people like the Tarley's). She has always ever wanted one thing and has done everything and anything to achieve that goal (even her trip up north was meant as a way of securing a large part of the 7 Kingdoms as allies). The simple truth is Dany has always been best suited as a conquistador i.e. a ruthless killing machine. She was never suited to truly lead and certainly not lead in a peaceful kingdom (which is where this is ending up). She was a strong powerful women which blinded many to the simple fact that she is a villain cut from the same cloth as Cersei. They are basically one in the same, different backgrounds but similar ambition.That's absolute nonsense. Dany arguably has done more good than anyone. Her brother was vile, abusive and weak. He sold Dany, his sister, to Khal Drogo to get his support to take the Iron Throne. Even so, Dany still protected him for a while even though he continued to be abusive. As for his golden crown, she wasn't gleeful although she had every right to be. She just recognized her brother wasn't a true dragon and wasn't fit for the Iron Throne.
The show is clearly rushing her full-on Mad Queen persona because they have to, but this path has been apparent from the beginning and isn't just some new development.
When Dany took over, she put an end to the Dothraki raping and pillaging. When Dany "bought" the Unsullied, she immediately freed them and immediately said they could leave if they desired. Dany freed the slaves in 3 cities even though it detracted from her quest for the Iron Throne. If she was only focused on the Iron Throne, she would have taken the slaver's deal to get more men and ships. When she got to Westeros, she made Yara pledge that the Iron Born would give up their pillaging. Dany clearly went North for Jon and it has cost her dearly. If she's as bad as you say, she wouldn't have listened to Tyrion's dumb plans. She would have just attacked King's Landing and burned it to the ground if necessary.
Is Dany hard and sometimes brutal? Most definitely but that is what is sometimes required of a ruler, or anyone, in GOT. Dany killing the Tarley's was brutal but it was also necessary. What was she supposed to do start a prisoner of war camp? What was Jon when killed the Nigh****ch traitors including Olly who was just a kid? Brutal and hard. What was Ned when he killed the Nigh****ch runaway? Brutal and hard. The people who aren't brutal and hard end up dead.
It amazes me how Cersei is so vilified when she's not close to being the worst villain on the show.
As for Randyll Tarly, he was pledged to High Garden. So when Olenna Tyrell threw her support behind Dany, Tarly should have done so as well. Instead he broke his oath and supported Cersei even though he strongly disliked her. Comparing to Edmure Tully is apples to oranges. Dany won a battle not the war. Randyll Tarly was a threat because he was possibly the best commander in Westeros. He was the only one to defeat Robert Baratheon in battle. Dany gave him a 2nd chance after losing the battle and he still wouldn't support her.
Fear has worked quite well throughout human history and it has worked quite well in the GOT environment. Besides once Dany had won the war, she wouldn't be oppressing the people. She'd be trying to make things better.
Jon killing Olly was worse than Dany killing Randyll Tarly and his adult son. Olly was a kid who'd seen his family brutally murdered by Wildings. He'd joined the Nigh****ch to defend against the Wildings. Then Jon makes a deal with them. Olly wasn't a leader of the mutiny and he wasn't a threat any longer. Jon could have easily spared Olly. He could have been sent to Eas****ch since they needed all the men possible to defend against the dead.
I think most of Martin's characters are various shades of grey and not the black and white, good guy versus bad guy that some might be portraying.
I think most of Martin's characters are various shades of grey and not the black and white, good guy versus bad guy that some might be portraying.Definitely shades of gray for most including Jon and Dany. Although a few like Ramsey Bolton and the Mountain are pretty much pitch black. Jon and Dany have done both good and bad acts. Sometimes bad acts are necessary.
I don't think the things Dany or Jon have done are either good or bad. Both are young and extremely inexperienced in doing the stuff that they have done, i.e. ruling and decision making.
Your just wrong about Dany in the show and the books. Heck in the books Dany was 13 when she was forced to marry Khal Drogo. Danny freeing the slaves in three cities even though it actually impeded her Iron Throne quest shows your wrongness.The thing is, Dany didn't kill Randyll because he broke his oath to the Tyrell's (and let's be clear he broke his oath to someone committing a mutiny to side with the ultimate ruler), she killed him because he wouldn't bend the knee. That is a terrible reason to kill someone, especially when you are an invader and as you say not yet the ruler of the kingdom. It is certainly no reason to kill Dickon either. And let's be clear burning someone alive (and then presumably letting your dragons eat them) is about as inhumane way to kill someone as possible. Dany has always been a villain. It is far more clear in the books than the show, but she is a villain. This isn't some strange turn the show is making willy nilly at the last minute. they are absolutely accelerating the villain turn, but a villain she has always been.You don't need the lords to rule. At least not in their current form. They're responsible for all the suffering with their fight for power. Most of the houses have already been decimated from the years of fighting. If you actually want to break the wheel, you start by taking away power from the lords.There is a lot here I just disagree with and frankly is wrong but the Tarley's absolutely did not have to die. There was no reason at all to wipe out an entire house. You need lords to rule. Remember she was an invading army with Dothraki barbarians and dragons decimating people. You don't get undying loyalty when you are the invader (heck even when you aren't you don't wipe out lords - you know like Edmure Tully is still alive because the Lannisters understand this principal). It was a stupid request and killing them was stupid. It was unnecessary. It is also significantly different then serving justice for those that broke laws (like with what Jon and Ned did). The Tarley's broke no laws, they were serving their ruler and defending their kingdom from an invading horde. You don't kill people in that situation once you've won. That instills fear not loyalty and is a strategy that rarely works as eventually people in fear rebel.And I've seen so many articles about them making Dany a villain turn is basically anti-woman. Of course the problem with that line of thinking is Dany has always been a villain. I mean just go back to season 1 where she gleefully watches her husband poor molten gold on her brother and kill him. She is a ruthless killer that relishes in making her perceived enemies suffer (and I do mean perceived enemies i.e. people like the Tarley's). She has always ever wanted one thing and has done everything and anything to achieve that goal (even her trip up north was meant as a way of securing a large part of the 7 Kingdoms as allies). The simple truth is Dany has always been best suited as a conquistador i.e. a ruthless killing machine. She was never suited to truly lead and certainly not lead in a peaceful kingdom (which is where this is ending up). She was a strong powerful women which blinded many to the simple fact that she is a villain cut from the same cloth as Cersei. They are basically one in the same, different backgrounds but similar ambition.That's absolute nonsense. Dany arguably has done more good than anyone. Her brother was vile, abusive and weak. He sold Dany, his sister, to Khal Drogo to get his support to take the Iron Throne. Even so, Dany still protected him for a while even though he continued to be abusive. As for his golden crown, she wasn't gleeful although she had every right to be. She just recognized her brother wasn't a true dragon and wasn't fit for the Iron Throne.
The show is clearly rushing her full-on Mad Queen persona because they have to, but this path has been apparent from the beginning and isn't just some new development.
When Dany took over, she put an end to the Dothraki raping and pillaging. When Dany "bought" the Unsullied, she immediately freed them and immediately said they could leave if they desired. Dany freed the slaves in 3 cities even though it detracted from her quest for the Iron Throne. If she was only focused on the Iron Throne, she would have taken the slaver's deal to get more men and ships. When she got to Westeros, she made Yara pledge that the Iron Born would give up their pillaging. Dany clearly went North for Jon and it has cost her dearly. If she's as bad as you say, she wouldn't have listened to Tyrion's dumb plans. She would have just attacked King's Landing and burned it to the ground if necessary.
Is Dany hard and sometimes brutal? Most definitely but that is what is sometimes required of a ruler, or anyone, in GOT. Dany killing the Tarley's was brutal but it was also necessary. What was she supposed to do start a prisoner of war camp? What was Jon when killed the Nigh****ch traitors including Olly who was just a kid? Brutal and hard. What was Ned when he killed the Nigh****ch runaway? Brutal and hard. The people who aren't brutal and hard end up dead.
It amazes me how Cersei is so vilified when she's not close to being the worst villain on the show.
As for Randyll Tarly, he was pledged to High Garden. So when Olenna Tyrell threw her support behind Dany, Tarly should have done so as well. Instead he broke his oath and supported Cersei even though he strongly disliked her. Comparing to Edmure Tully is apples to oranges. Dany won a battle not the war. Randyll Tarly was a threat because he was possibly the best commander in Westeros. He was the only one to defeat Robert Baratheon in battle. Dany gave him a 2nd chance after losing the battle and he still wouldn't support her.
Fear has worked quite well throughout human history and it has worked quite well in the GOT environment. Besides once Dany had won the war, she wouldn't be oppressing the people. She'd be trying to make things better.
Jon killing Olly was worse than Dany killing Randyll Tarly and his adult son. Olly was a kid who'd seen his family brutally murdered by Wildings. He'd joined the Nigh****ch to defend against the Wildings. Then Jon makes a deal with them. Olly wasn't a leader of the mutiny and he wasn't a threat any longer. Jon could have easily spared Olly. He could have been sent to Eas****ch since they needed all the men possible to defend against the dead.
Olly was a traitor. He was part of a mutiny. There isn't any way he could be spared. They all had to die.
That certainly seems like where they are headed but it is rather simplistic and silly. I'd hoped for better out of GOT. Wanting to rule and have power doesn't make you corrupt or a poor ruler. Not wanting to rule most certainly doesn't mean you'll be a good ruler.I think most of Martin's characters are various shades of grey and not the black and white, good guy versus bad guy that some might be portraying.
I think that's right. Even the most morally centered of the characters -- Ned, Jon -- had serious flaws. Probably not coincidentally, both died in large part due to that morality, although Jon was resurrected.
I do think that Dany is drifting more toward the proverbial dark side, though. I think that we'll ultimately see that those who crave power are all corrupted. Meanwhile, we'll see if Jon can do better than his surrogate father in terms of playing the reluctant hero.
So.....do we get the 2nd Battle of Kings Landing tonight? Will there be a 2nd Battle of Kings Landing or will we see maybe someone kill Cersei during a siege which would stop a battle from happening?
I think the show will need to resolve Cersei situation, one way or another, tonight and that the last show will set into place the future of Westeros by deciding who reigns, Dany, Jon or both together.
Can't wait.
Mad Queen hardcore
as I said always a villain which as I also said the show was going to accelerate.Your just wrong about Dany in the show and the books. Heck in the books Dany was 13 when she was forced to marry Khal Drogo. Danny freeing the slaves in three cities even though it actually impeded her Iron Throne quest shows your wrongness.The thing is, Dany didn't kill Randyll because he broke his oath to the Tyrell's (and let's be clear he broke his oath to someone committing a mutiny to side with the ultimate ruler), she killed him because he wouldn't bend the knee. That is a terrible reason to kill someone, especially when you are an invader and as you say not yet the ruler of the kingdom. It is certainly no reason to kill Dickon either. And let's be clear burning someone alive (and then presumably letting your dragons eat them) is about as inhumane way to kill someone as possible. Dany has always been a villain. It is far more clear in the books than the show, but she is a villain. This isn't some strange turn the show is making willy nilly at the last minute. they are absolutely accelerating the villain turn, but a villain she has always been.You don't need the lords to rule. At least not in their current form. They're responsible for all the suffering with their fight for power. Most of the houses have already been decimated from the years of fighting. If you actually want to break the wheel, you start by taking away power from the lords.There is a lot here I just disagree with and frankly is wrong but the Tarley's absolutely did not have to die. There was no reason at all to wipe out an entire house. You need lords to rule. Remember she was an invading army with Dothraki barbarians and dragons decimating people. You don't get undying loyalty when you are the invader (heck even when you aren't you don't wipe out lords - you know like Edmure Tully is still alive because the Lannisters understand this principal). It was a stupid request and killing them was stupid. It was unnecessary. It is also significantly different then serving justice for those that broke laws (like with what Jon and Ned did). The Tarley's broke no laws, they were serving their ruler and defending their kingdom from an invading horde. You don't kill people in that situation once you've won. That instills fear not loyalty and is a strategy that rarely works as eventually people in fear rebel.And I've seen so many articles about them making Dany a villain turn is basically anti-woman. Of course the problem with that line of thinking is Dany has always been a villain. I mean just go back to season 1 where she gleefully watches her husband poor molten gold on her brother and kill him. She is a ruthless killer that relishes in making her perceived enemies suffer (and I do mean perceived enemies i.e. people like the Tarley's). She has always ever wanted one thing and has done everything and anything to achieve that goal (even her trip up north was meant as a way of securing a large part of the 7 Kingdoms as allies). The simple truth is Dany has always been best suited as a conquistador i.e. a ruthless killing machine. She was never suited to truly lead and certainly not lead in a peaceful kingdom (which is where this is ending up). She was a strong powerful women which blinded many to the simple fact that she is a villain cut from the same cloth as Cersei. They are basically one in the same, different backgrounds but similar ambition.That's absolute nonsense. Dany arguably has done more good than anyone. Her brother was vile, abusive and weak. He sold Dany, his sister, to Khal Drogo to get his support to take the Iron Throne. Even so, Dany still protected him for a while even though he continued to be abusive. As for his golden crown, she wasn't gleeful although she had every right to be. She just recognized her brother wasn't a true dragon and wasn't fit for the Iron Throne.
The show is clearly rushing her full-on Mad Queen persona because they have to, but this path has been apparent from the beginning and isn't just some new development.
When Dany took over, she put an end to the Dothraki raping and pillaging. When Dany "bought" the Unsullied, she immediately freed them and immediately said they could leave if they desired. Dany freed the slaves in 3 cities even though it detracted from her quest for the Iron Throne. If she was only focused on the Iron Throne, she would have taken the slaver's deal to get more men and ships. When she got to Westeros, she made Yara pledge that the Iron Born would give up their pillaging. Dany clearly went North for Jon and it has cost her dearly. If she's as bad as you say, she wouldn't have listened to Tyrion's dumb plans. She would have just attacked King's Landing and burned it to the ground if necessary.
Is Dany hard and sometimes brutal? Most definitely but that is what is sometimes required of a ruler, or anyone, in GOT. Dany killing the Tarley's was brutal but it was also necessary. What was she supposed to do start a prisoner of war camp? What was Jon when killed the Nigh****ch traitors including Olly who was just a kid? Brutal and hard. What was Ned when he killed the Nigh****ch runaway? Brutal and hard. The people who aren't brutal and hard end up dead.
It amazes me how Cersei is so vilified when she's not close to being the worst villain on the show.
As for Randyll Tarly, he was pledged to High Garden. So when Olenna Tyrell threw her support behind Dany, Tarly should have done so as well. Instead he broke his oath and supported Cersei even though he strongly disliked her. Comparing to Edmure Tully is apples to oranges. Dany won a battle not the war. Randyll Tarly was a threat because he was possibly the best commander in Westeros. He was the only one to defeat Robert Baratheon in battle. Dany gave him a 2nd chance after losing the battle and he still wouldn't support her.
Fear has worked quite well throughout human history and it has worked quite well in the GOT environment. Besides once Dany had won the war, she wouldn't be oppressing the people. She'd be trying to make things better.
Jon killing Olly was worse than Dany killing Randyll Tarly and his adult son. Olly was a kid who'd seen his family brutally murdered by Wildings. He'd joined the Nigh****ch to defend against the Wildings. Then Jon makes a deal with them. Olly wasn't a leader of the mutiny and he wasn't a threat any longer. Jon could have easily spared Olly. He could have been sent to Eas****ch since they needed all the men possible to defend against the dead.
Olly was a traitor. He was part of a mutiny. There isn't any way he could be spared. They all had to die.
Incredible episode.really highlighted the problems with how they killed rhaegal last week. And I get they have time issues but they went way too far too fast with Dany's full on villain turn. Should have just had her go for the red keep. Perhaps then the blood smell triggers more, but killing innocents that quickly just too fast
Incredible episode.really highlighted the problems with how they killed rhaegal last week. And I get they have time issues but they went way too far too fast with Dany's full on villain turn. Should have just had her go for the red keep. Perhaps then the blood smell triggers more, but killing innocents that quickly just too fast
In Westeros time, it took a while. When Jon rejected Dany, just before he said it would be two weeks(a fortnight) for the troops to get to King's Landing. Plus, it was said she had locked herself up for days prior to her meeting with Tyrion.Incredible episode.really highlighted the problems with how they killed rhaegal last week. And I get they have time issues but they went way too far too fast with Dany's full on villain turn. Should have just had her go for the red keep. Perhaps then the blood smell triggers more, but killing innocents that quickly just too fast
I thought it was good. Danny's the daughter of the mad King, was headed toward a turn and wreaking total carnage on Kings Landing, killing tons of innocents and going scorched earth is right in line with where this was headed. I do think the last 2 seasons have been too rushed to the point where this was headed towards a Lost comparison. I also didn't like Episode 4 at all and how they just dismissed the the night king in one battle.
But tonight it got back on track in a pretty solid manner.
To be fair, it's not the first time she's burned cities to the ground or coldly murdered people who didn't bend the knee.Incredible episode.really highlighted the problems with how they killed rhaegal last week. And I get they have time issues but they went way too far too fast with Dany's full on villain turn. Should have just had her go for the red keep. Perhaps then the blood smell triggers more, but killing innocents that quickly just too fast
oh no question she ends up there in the books, but it will be earlier, set up much better and will be less forced. Jon will kill her, he will fulfill the prophecy, and will kill the Night King as a result.To be fair, it's not the first time she's burned cities to the ground or coldly murdered people who didn't bend the knee.Incredible episode.really highlighted the problems with how they killed rhaegal last week. And I get they have time issues but they went way too far too fast with Dany's full on villain turn. Should have just had her go for the red keep. Perhaps then the blood smell triggers more, but killing innocents that quickly just too fast
It all felt very rushed for sure, but there was plenty along the way to suggest this is likely where GRR Martin always had his story ending up.
At this point, Im mostly just enjoying the visuals. The writing has way too many gaps and inconsistencies.
To be fair, it's not the first time she's burned cities to the ground or coldly murdered people who didn't bend the knee.
It all felt very rushed for sure, but there was plenty along the way to suggest this is likely where GRR Martin always had his story ending up.
A very simple way the writing could have even made her full on villain turn more believable is something like this.To be fair, it's not the first time she's burned cities to the ground or coldly murdered people who didn't bend the knee.
Yeah I've been rewatching and when she torches Astapor there's zero chance there was no collateral damage - the show just ignores it but that's what happens when you torch a city. She's always been pretty capricious about brutalizing people with her dragons, especially when pressed.
I thought her villain turn was too over the top - would've made more sense to just have her go for the Red Keep in spite of Cersei filling it with civliians, then maybe torch some streets after taking some token archer fire (there were like zero ranged weapons after the Scorpions were gone lol). Just randomly lighting up dozens of streets full of innocent people was a bit much. But I really liked that they showed the "good guys" - not just Dany - committing mass atrocities, it didn't sugarcoat the sacking of a city and was a nice steady transition from triumph to horror show.It all felt very rushed for sure, but there was plenty along the way to suggest this is likely where GRR Martin always had his story ending up.
Yeah, there's a very slim chance the books weren't intended to wind up in a very similar spot with Dany. It makes total sense as an overall arc, even though the post-book part was sometimes poorly developed.
that's a good fix.A very simple way the writing could have even made her full on villain turn more believable is something like this.To be fair, it's not the first time she's burned cities to the ground or coldly murdered people who didn't bend the knee.
Yeah I've been rewatching and when she torches Astapor there's zero chance there was no collateral damage - the show just ignores it but that's what happens when you torch a city. She's always been pretty capricious about brutalizing people with her dragons, especially when pressed.
I thought her villain turn was too over the top - would've made more sense to just have her go for the Red Keep in spite of Cersei filling it with civliians, then maybe torch some streets after taking some token archer fire (there were like zero ranged weapons after the Scorpions were gone lol). Just randomly lighting up dozens of streets full of innocent people was a bit much. But I really liked that they showed the "good guys" - not just Dany - committing mass atrocities, it didn't sugarcoat the sacking of a city and was a nice steady transition from triumph to horror show.It all felt very rushed for sure, but there was plenty along the way to suggest this is likely where GRR Martin always had his story ending up.
Yeah, there's a very slim chance the books weren't intended to wind up in a very similar spot with Dany. It makes total sense as an overall arc, even though the post-book part was sometimes poorly developed.
Last week, instead of losing Rhaegal, they get shot at with the guns and back off, but Euron still turns on the ships and Dany still loses Missindrei. Dany then has a couple of days of brooding the loss of the Missindrei, then gets rejected by Jon, but she still isn't set completely over the edge. Then during the battle, Dany on Drogon and Jon on Rhaegal lay waste to the weapons just as Dany did with Drogon. They then both sit on the walls on their dragons. The bells ring and then after that, a stray gun (that was missed by Dany/Jon) fires and hits and kills Rhaegal. In that moment, then Dany just snaps and goes on her Mad Queen rampage. It just makes far more sense and also makes the dragon destruction of the weapons far more believable, while also taking out the nonsense of how Rhaegal died, thus fixing two episodes almost simultaneously.
I mean it isn't that difficult to craft far more realistic and believable story lines, they just have two nimwit hacks writing the show and they are wholly ill equipped to craft this story without the books as a guideline.
I mean it isn't that difficult to craft far more realistic and believable story lines, they just have two nimwit hacks writing the show and they are wholly ill equipped to craft this story without the books as a guideline.
Of course, I expect all shows I watch for the people making them to care and want them to be good. HBO really blew this season by letting those two idiots continue to have carte blanche. HBO needed to run to Martin and beg him to actively participate and do whatever was required to get him to participate. Because, while people are watching this disaster, and watching en masse, it really hurts HBO to have this season, especially, become such crap. What could have been one of the greatest series ever, has been turned into complete and utter rubbish because the guy responsible for X-Men Origins Wolverine, would rather not do to the show anymore.
I mean it isn't that difficult to craft far more realistic and believable story lines, they just have two nimwit hacks writing the show and they are wholly ill equipped to craft this story without the books as a guideline.
The problem is that you care about the show making sense and being good; the folks in charge of GoT obviously don't, they just want to be done.
Of course, I expect all shows I watch for the people making them to care and want them to be good. HBO really blew this season by letting those two idiots continue to have carte blanche. HBO needed to run to Martin and beg him to actively participate and do whatever was required to get him to participate. Because, while people are watching this disaster, and watching en masse, it really hurts HBO to have this season, especially, become such crap. What could have been one of the greatest series ever, has been turned into complete and utter rubbish because the guy responsible for X-Men Origins Wolverine, would rather not do to the show anymore.
I mean it isn't that difficult to craft far more realistic and believable story lines, they just have two nimwit hacks writing the show and they are wholly ill equipped to craft this story without the books as a guideline.
The problem is that you care about the show making sense and being good; the folks in charge of GoT obviously don't, they just want to be done.
A very simple way the writing could have even made her full on villain turn more believable is something like this.
Last week, instead of losing Rhaegal, they get shot at with the guns and back off, but Euron still turns on the ships and Dany still loses Missindrei. Dany then has a couple of days of brooding the loss of the Missindrei, then gets rejected by Jon, but she still isn't set completely over the edge. Then during the battle, Dany on Drogon and Jon on Rhaegal lay waste to the weapons just as Dany did with Drogon. They then both sit on the walls on their dragons. The bells ring and then after that, a stray gun (that was missed by Dany/Jon) fires and hits and kills Rhaegal. In that moment, then Dany just snaps and goes on her Mad Queen rampage. It just makes far more sense and also makes the dragon destruction of the weapons far more believable, while also taking out the nonsense of how Rhaegal died, thus fixing two episodes almost simultaneously.
I mean it isn't that difficult to craft far more realistic and believable story lines, they just have two nimwit hacks writing the show and they are wholly ill equipped to craft this story without the books as a guideline.
CLEGANEBOWL!
That's all that mattered last night! All that hype, and we finally got it. Well worth the wait.
I really hope Martin puts out the next couple of books soon so some fans can have the closure of the story that they don't seem to be getting from the show.
I'm curious to see how Cersei dies in the books, as it's prophesied that she'll die by the hand of a sibling.
At least The Mountain got an iconic death. Cersei and the Night King both went out with a whimper unbefitting of their stature.
One more thought on the plot. You can draw a comparison to Star Wars Episode 3 with Dany's heel turn compared to Anakin Skywalker's. In Star Wars you had great writing, but they couldn't quite pull it off because Hayden Christensen was such a crappy actor. Here they had the acting talent. Emilia Clark is world class. But she got let down to a degree by weak writing. That all said she still managed to pull it off with a degree of success because of her talent.Hayden Christensen nailed Anakin though...
I'm curious to see how Cersei dies in the books, as it's prophesied that she'll die by the hand of a sibling.In the books, I think Cersei dies before Dany even lands in Westeros. I doubt she survives fAegon and the Golden Company.
At least The Mountain got an iconic death. Cersei and the Night King both went out with a whimper unbefitting of their stature.
I don't I think Cersei beats them. Also wouldn't it be funny if fake Aegon isn't actually fake and he really is Rhaegar and Ellia's son. Not the prince who was promised but not fake either.I'm curious to see how Cersei dies in the books, as it's prophesied that she'll die by the hand of a sibling.In the books, I think Cersei dies before Dany even lands in Westeros. I doubt she survives fAegon and the Golden Company.
At least The Mountain got an iconic death. Cersei and the Night King both went out with a whimper unbefitting of their stature.
Are you saying he'll beat Cersei, or he won't? My reasoning is that in the show, it really doesn't make a lot of sense for the Golden Company to back Cersei at this point, even if she has the gold to pay them (somehow). Everyone hates her, and she's clearly going to lose. But replace Cersei with fAegon, everything make much more sense. He's a likable figure that freed the peasants from the evil tyrant Cersei, and (supposedly) has a stronger claim to the throne than Dany. I'm thinking it's a good possibility that D and D didn't want to introduce such an important character so late into the story, so they simply replaced his plot with Cersei.I don't I think Cersei beats them. Also wouldn't it be funny if fake Aegon isn't actually fake and he really is Rhaegar and Ellia's son. Not the prince who was promised but not fake either.I'm curious to see how Cersei dies in the books, as it's prophesied that she'll die by the hand of a sibling.In the books, I think Cersei dies before Dany even lands in Westeros. I doubt she survives fAegon and the Golden Company.
At least The Mountain got an iconic death. Cersei and the Night King both went out with a whimper unbefitting of their stature.
certainly could play out that way, but everything we know about Aegon is geared about him wanting to marry Dany and rule with her, I'm not sure a real conflict would exist between them, now an Aegon vs. Aegon war would be interesting but I can't see that working out from a timing perspective.Are you saying he'll beat Cersei, or he won't? My reasoning is that in the show, it really doesn't make a lot of sense for the Golden Company to back Cersei at this point, even if she has the gold to pay them (somehow). Everyone hates her, and she's clearly going to lose. But replace Cersei with fAegon, everything make much more sense. He's a likable figure that freed the peasants from the evil tyrant Cersei, and (supposedly) has a stronger claim to the throne than Dany. I'm thinking it's a good possibility that D and D didn't want to introduce such an important character so late into the story, so they simply replaced his plot with Cersei.I don't I think Cersei beats them. Also wouldn't it be funny if fake Aegon isn't actually fake and he really is Rhaegar and Ellia's son. Not the prince who was promised but not fake either.I'm curious to see how Cersei dies in the books, as it's prophesied that she'll die by the hand of a sibling.In the books, I think Cersei dies before Dany even lands in Westeros. I doubt she survives fAegon and the Golden Company.
At least The Mountain got an iconic death. Cersei and the Night King both went out with a whimper unbefitting of their stature.
Correct me if I'm wrong, because it has been a while, but weren't the Arianne chapters suggesting that she and Aegon were likely going to marry, allying him with Dorne? Plus even if he wants to rule with Dany, I don't think she would be one to share the throne with anyone. Watching Westeros prefer Aegon instead of her could be the thing that pushes Dany over the edge.certainly could play out that way, but everything we know about Aegon is geared about him wanting to marry Dany and rule with her, I'm not sure a real conflict would exist between them, now an Aegon vs. Aegon war would be interesting but I can't see that working out from a timing perspective.Are you saying he'll beat Cersei, or he won't? My reasoning is that in the show, it really doesn't make a lot of sense for the Golden Company to back Cersei at this point, even if she has the gold to pay them (somehow). Everyone hates her, and she's clearly going to lose. But replace Cersei with fAegon, everything make much more sense. He's a likable figure that freed the peasants from the evil tyrant Cersei, and (supposedly) has a stronger claim to the throne than Dany. I'm thinking it's a good possibility that D and D didn't want to introduce such an important character so late into the story, so they simply replaced his plot with Cersei.I don't I think Cersei beats them. Also wouldn't it be funny if fake Aegon isn't actually fake and he really is Rhaegar and Ellia's son. Not the prince who was promised but not fake either.I'm curious to see how Cersei dies in the books, as it's prophesied that she'll die by the hand of a sibling.In the books, I think Cersei dies before Dany even lands in Westeros. I doubt she survives fAegon and the Golden Company.
At least The Mountain got an iconic death. Cersei and the Night King both went out with a whimper unbefitting of their stature.
Emilia Clark is world class.
I'm curious to see how Cersei dies in the books, as it's prophesied that she'll die by the hand of a sibling.
At least The Mountain got an iconic death. Cersei and the Night King both went out with a whimper unbefitting of their stature.
A very simple way the writing could have even made her full on villain turn more believable is something like this.
Last week, instead of losing Rhaegal, they get shot at with the guns and back off, but Euron still turns on the ships and Dany still loses Missindrei. Dany then has a couple of days of brooding the loss of the Missindrei, then gets rejected by Jon, but she still isn't set completely over the edge. Then during the battle, Dany on Drogon and Jon on Rhaegal lay waste to the weapons just as Dany did with Drogon. They then both sit on the walls on their dragons. The bells ring and then after that, a stray gun (that was missed by Dany/Jon) fires and hits and kills Rhaegal. In that moment, then Dany just snaps and goes on her Mad Queen rampage. It just makes far more sense and also makes the dragon destruction of the weapons far more believable, while also taking out the nonsense of how Rhaegal died, thus fixing two episodes almost simultaneously.
I mean it isn't that difficult to craft far more realistic and believable story lines, they just have two nimwit hacks writing the show and they are wholly ill equipped to craft this story without the books as a guideline.
Eh, that's a little too random chance, Dany's arc feels more earned to me if it's not a straw that breaks the back situation, or even an immediate response to provocation at all. She needed to stew on it and then go for it. And it's hard to sell the Scorpions as a legit threat if they just, like, lightly wound a dragon like we'd already seen them do. The execution of Rhaegal's death was worse than the idea.
Just have her lock eyes with Cersei after the bells ring and go straight for her, ignoring the mass civilian casualties - I was pretty sure that's why they played up having all those people in the Red Keep for "safety" last episode. Then branch out to attacking the Lannister military in the streets, including the ones running with civilians. Wildfire caches go off, etc etc and now the whole city's burning.CLEGANEBOWL!
That's all that mattered last night! All that hype, and we finally got it. Well worth the wait.
I enjoyed the CleganeBowl but it was pretty jarring because one of my last rewatches was the Hound in the inn where he fights a handful of Lannister men and it's just a knockdown brawl that he needs Arya's help to survive. Skip ahead a few years and he's kicking things off by killing about the same number of what should be Queensguard from low ground while barely needing to move. Leveling up baby!
Who'd've thought a few years ago that Game of Thrones would wind up less realistic than the Star Wars prequels on the benefits of high ground?
I thought he was headed to Dany to propose, but Tyrion suggested that he would be in a better position if he had an army and land in Westeros so he went that way instead to build up a base. And Dorne isn't much for incest while the Targs don't seem to mind that, so he seems more suited for Dany in that regard anyway.Correct me if I'm wrong, because it has been a while, but weren't the Arianne chapters suggesting that she and Aegon were likely going to marry, allying him with Dorne? Plus even if he wants to rule with Dany, I don't think she would be one to share the throne with anyone. Watching Westeros prefer Aegon instead of her could be the thing that pushes Dany over the edge.certainly could play out that way, but everything we know about Aegon is geared about him wanting to marry Dany and rule with her, I'm not sure a real conflict would exist between them, now an Aegon vs. Aegon war would be interesting but I can't see that working out from a timing perspective.Are you saying he'll beat Cersei, or he won't? My reasoning is that in the show, it really doesn't make a lot of sense for the Golden Company to back Cersei at this point, even if she has the gold to pay them (somehow). Everyone hates her, and she's clearly going to lose. But replace Cersei with fAegon, everything make much more sense. He's a likable figure that freed the peasants from the evil tyrant Cersei, and (supposedly) has a stronger claim to the throne than Dany. I'm thinking it's a good possibility that D and D didn't want to introduce such an important character so late into the story, so they simply replaced his plot with Cersei.I don't I think Cersei beats them. Also wouldn't it be funny if fake Aegon isn't actually fake and he really is Rhaegar and Ellia's son. Not the prince who was promised but not fake either.I'm curious to see how Cersei dies in the books, as it's prophesied that she'll die by the hand of a sibling.In the books, I think Cersei dies before Dany even lands in Westeros. I doubt she survives fAegon and the Golden Company.
At least The Mountain got an iconic death. Cersei and the Night King both went out with a whimper unbefitting of their stature.
The only thing that really bugged me was the dragons fire.
I have never seen anywhere where dragons fire acts like explosions blowing what would be feet thick of stone apart
The only thing that really bugged me was the dragons fire.well obviously that was caused by the explosive mortar they used when building the walls/houses ;)
Being someone who has loved all things dragon for his entire life, I have never seen anywhere where dragons fire acts like explosions blowing what would be feet thick of stone apart. But only burning humans.
The only thing that really bugged me was the dragons fire.
Being someone who has loved all things dragon for his entire life, I have never seen anywhere where dragons fire acts like explosions blowing what would be feet thick of stone apart. But only burning humans.
Harrenhal's walls were too high and too thick, and well-stocked enough to withstand a siege. During a parley outside the castle, Aegon offered to confirm Harren as Lord of the Iron Islands, provided he would yield. Harren refused, trusting in the strength of his castle, confident that the stone would not burn. Aegon warned him that the line of House Hoare would come to an end that night, at which Harren returned to his castle. To his men, he promised riches and the daughters of the riverlords to anyone who could slay Aegon's dragon, Balerion, in the upcoming battle.[1]
When the sun had gone down, Aegon flew Balerion high above Harrenhal, before plunging down upon Harrenhal, burning the castle beneath him. All that was flammable, both suplies and ironmen, caught fire within the castle, while Harrenhal's stone towers cracked and melted. The rivermen outside observed that the towers glowed and melted like candles.[1] Harren and his sons died in the largest of the towers of Harrenhal, which would later give the tower its name: Kingspyre Tower.[5] With their deaths, House Hoare was extinguished.
Once again, the only explanation for any of it that makes sense is "Because that's what the plot demanded."
You know, there is no real rules for dragonfire. There are many types of dragons in the world of D&D with lots of different types of fire. Heck some dragons shoot ice in those games.
Is the shows depiction of dragonfire different than described in the books? Sure. Does that make it wrong? Hell no. Just different. I have no problem with explosive dragon fire. In most of the shots of the dragons in battle, even when much younger and smaller, showed a rolling explosive fire.
To be fair, the two dragons at Winterfell were fighting another dragon and ended up seriously wounding it. When they weren't, they wiped out giant amounts of the undead in front of the castle.You know, there is no real rules for dragonfire. There are many types of dragons in the world of D&D with lots of different types of fire. Heck some dragons shoot ice in those games.
Is the shows depiction of dragonfire different than described in the books? Sure. Does that make it wrong? Hell no. Just different. I have no problem with explosive dragon fire. In most of the shots of the dragons in battle, even when much younger and smaller, showed a rolling explosive fire.
The show can make its own rules. They should strive for internal consistency, though. Two dragons were borderline useless in Winterfell; one can now defeat entire cities and fleets by itself.
You know, there is no real rules for dragonfire.
You know, there is no real rules for dragonfire.
NONSENSE!
The problem is they weren't even consistent in the episode. The same fire blast that blew apart walls merely scorched human bodies. It is nonsense. If the dragonfire had that sort of concussive force, then there wouldn't have been charred bodies at all as there wouldn't have bodies left. I don't have an issue with things like burning Varys not having the same kind of force as the dragon wasn't moving and presumably Drogon has some level of control over the fire, but you can't do a pass that blows walls apart that leaves bodies in tact but burned. That is quite frankly nonsense. Though it looks cool to blow apart the walls so let's just throw out logic. Typical of the last few seasons of the show.To be fair, the two dragons at Winterfell were fighting another dragon and ended up seriously wounding it. When they weren't, they wiped out giant amounts of the undead in front of the castle.You know, there is no real rules for dragonfire. There are many types of dragons in the world of D&D with lots of different types of fire. Heck some dragons shoot ice in those games.
Is the shows depiction of dragonfire different than described in the books? Sure. Does that make it wrong? Hell no. Just different. I have no problem with explosive dragon fire. In most of the shots of the dragons in battle, even when much younger and smaller, showed a rolling explosive fire.
The show can make its own rules. They should strive for internal consistency, though. Two dragons were borderline useless in Winterfell; one can now defeat entire cities and fleets by itself.
And obviously Dany learned her lesson about how to use the dragon. She wiped out the fleet because she emerged into battle using the sunlight to make it difficult to see them in a kamakazi dive. Once she hit the first group, the rest of the fleet was too slow to react.
And the ballistas on the castle didn't seem to have very good ability to move in a circle so once Dany got past the first volley, she was over the inside of the city with the ballistas facing the wrong direction, so she just destroyed them all.
I see the whole attack as very believable. Way more realistic than three ballistas having perfect shots and killing Danny's other dragon.
You have no idea how close some of those burn victims were to the fire. Proximity matters. And just about every shot of the dragon fire during the battle showed explosive tendencies even in prior dragon battles scenes.The problem is they weren't even consistent in the episode. The same fire blast that blew apart walls merely scorched human bodies. It is nonsense. If the dragonfire had that sort of concussive force, then there wouldn't have been charred bodies at all as there wouldn't have bodies left. I don't have an issue with things like burning Varys not having the same kind of force as the dragon wasn't moving and presumably Drogon has some level of control over the fire, but you can't do a pass that blows walls apart that leaves bodies in tact but burned. That is quite frankly nonsense. Though it looks cool to blow apart the walls so let's just throw out logic. Typical of the last few seasons of the show.To be fair, the two dragons at Winterfell were fighting another dragon and ended up seriously wounding it. When they weren't, they wiped out giant amounts of the undead in front of the castle.You know, there is no real rules for dragonfire. There are many types of dragons in the world of D&D with lots of different types of fire. Heck some dragons shoot ice in those games.
Is the shows depiction of dragonfire different than described in the books? Sure. Does that make it wrong? Hell no. Just different. I have no problem with explosive dragon fire. In most of the shots of the dragons in battle, even when much younger and smaller, showed a rolling explosive fire.
The show can make its own rules. They should strive for internal consistency, though. Two dragons were borderline useless in Winterfell; one can now defeat entire cities and fleets by itself.
And obviously Dany learned her lesson about how to use the dragon. She wiped out the fleet because she emerged into battle using the sunlight to make it difficult to see them in a kamakazi dive. Once she hit the first group, the rest of the fleet was too slow to react.
And the ballistas on the castle didn't seem to have very good ability to move in a circle so once Dany got past the first volley, she was over the inside of the city with the ballistas facing the wrong direction, so she just destroyed them all.
I see the whole attack as very believable. Way more realistic than three ballistas having perfect shots and killing Danny's other dragon.
If you think that is the argument being made by me then there is no point discussing this further, because it most certainly was not. It is a fantasy show, sure, but there are still rules and the show has changed the rules on a whim because it looks cooler or because they need something to happen. Heck even last season, Drogon didn't have concussive dragonfire as he was taking out the Tarley's forces. It was cooler to have explosions even if those explosions have never existed before, so let's just make it cooler and ignore what we've previously established on the show.You have no idea how close some of those burn victims were to the fire. Proximity matters. And just about every shot of the dragon fire during the battle showed explosive tendencies even in prior dragon battles scenes.The problem is they weren't even consistent in the episode. The same fire blast that blew apart walls merely scorched human bodies. It is nonsense. If the dragonfire had that sort of concussive force, then there wouldn't have been charred bodies at all as there wouldn't have bodies left. I don't have an issue with things like burning Varys not having the same kind of force as the dragon wasn't moving and presumably Drogon has some level of control over the fire, but you can't do a pass that blows walls apart that leaves bodies in tact but burned. That is quite frankly nonsense. Though it looks cool to blow apart the walls so let's just throw out logic. Typical of the last few seasons of the show.To be fair, the two dragons at Winterfell were fighting another dragon and ended up seriously wounding it. When they weren't, they wiped out giant amounts of the undead in front of the castle.You know, there is no real rules for dragonfire. There are many types of dragons in the world of D&D with lots of different types of fire. Heck some dragons shoot ice in those games.
Is the shows depiction of dragonfire different than described in the books? Sure. Does that make it wrong? Hell no. Just different. I have no problem with explosive dragon fire. In most of the shots of the dragons in battle, even when much younger and smaller, showed a rolling explosive fire.
The show can make its own rules. They should strive for internal consistency, though. Two dragons were borderline useless in Winterfell; one can now defeat entire cities and fleets by itself.
And obviously Dany learned her lesson about how to use the dragon. She wiped out the fleet because she emerged into battle using the sunlight to make it difficult to see them in a kamakazi dive. Once she hit the first group, the rest of the fleet was too slow to react.
And the ballistas on the castle didn't seem to have very good ability to move in a circle so once Dany got past the first volley, she was over the inside of the city with the ballistas facing the wrong direction, so she just destroyed them all.
I see the whole attack as very believable. Way more realistic than three ballistas having perfect shots and killing Danny's other dragon.
Yeah, and in just about all fantasy lierature on dragons, dragons have control of how intense a projectile they can throw. I say projectile because, as I said earlier, dragons vary and what they spew can differ.
That last episode was the most visually stunning and visually dramatic piece of television in history. Hands down. And you guys are complaining about the physics of an imaginary creatures ability to create fire out of their mouths and having the after effects be 100% spot on to our world's physics.
Clearly, in this imaginary world, things work differently. Seasons are years or even decades long. People come back from the dead. People can see the future in flames. A certain type of steel has alloy superpowers. You can take over the abilities of animals through warning. You can see the entire history of the world by connecting to special trees. And there are different types of sentient beings.
But yeah, let's complain about imaginary dragonfire not being realistic or confirming to real life physics.
My prediction for the final episode:
Jon is going to demand the iron throne formally as the true heir knowing dany cant rule. Dany is going to tell him either he is a usurper or he is who he says he is and Drogon will burn him. If he walks out the throne is his. If he doesnt hes a usurper and dies like he deserves.
He either walks out OR what I like even better is Drogon refuses the dracarys order and wont burn Jon. Final betrayal of dany by her child.
I am refusing to google or reddit any GoT this week in fear of leaks so please dont respond if you actually know what happens!
My prediction for the final episode:
Jon is going to demand the iron throne formally as the true heir knowing dany cant rule. Dany is going to tell him either he is a usurper or he is who he says he is and Drogon will burn him. If he walks out the throne is his. If he doesnt hes a usurper and dies like he deserves.
He either walks out OR what I like even better is Drogon refuses the dracarys order and wont burn Jon. Final betrayal of dany by her child.
I am refusing to google or reddit any GoT this week in fear of leaks so please dont respond if you actually know what happens!
I'm predicting neither Jon nor Dany ends up on the Iron Throne. I think Dany dies -- probably killed by Tyrion, either directly or with his help -- and Jon is so disillusioned by what he's seen about power that he declines the throne.
I have no idea who rules in his place. Gendry and Arya would be lame, Sansa seems out of the picture, Bran isn't even human any more, and there aren't really any other good replacements.
My prediction for the final episode:
Jon is going to demand the iron throne formally as the true heir knowing dany cant rule. Dany is going to tell him either he is a usurper or he is who he says he is and Drogon will burn him. If he walks out the throne is his. If he doesnt hes a usurper and dies like he deserves.
He either walks out OR what I like even better is Drogon refuses the dracarys order and wont burn Jon. Final betrayal of dany by her child.
I am refusing to google or reddit any GoT this week in fear of leaks so please dont respond if you actually know what happens!
I'm predicting neither Jon nor Dany ends up on the Iron Throne. I think Dany dies -- probably killed by Tyrion, either directly or with his help -- and Jon is so disillusioned by what he's seen about power that he declines the throne.
I have no idea who rules in his place. Gendry and Arya would be lame, Sansa seems out of the picture, Bran isn't even human any more, and there aren't really any other good replacements.
According to reports, the writers and directors of the show say they'll be getting drunk during the episode because of all the backlash they expect to get after it airs. And many of the actors/actresses themselves have said in the past few months that people will "need therapy" and probably "get mad like the Mad King" after the season ends, so buckle up! :P
You know, there is no real rules for dragonfire. There are many types of dragons in the world of D&D with lots of different types of fire. Heck some dragons shoot ice in those games.
Is the shows depiction of dragonfire different than described in the books? Sure. Does that make it wrong? Hell no. Just different. I have no problem with explosive dragon fire. In most of the shots of the dragons in battle, even when much younger and smaller, showed a rolling explosive fire.
Anyone else worried that Jon Snow is not in the episode 6 trailer?I'm pretty sure he'll be in the episode.
Anyone else worried that Jon Snow is not in the episode 6 trailer?
Anyone else worried that Jon Snow is not in the episode 6 trailer?
That would be the most Season 8 thing ever. No mention of Jon in the finale, other than a brief "I heard Jon plans to live out his days beyond the wall with his direwolf" from Tyrion.
I've thought for a long time there'd be no Iron Throne/monarchy at the end of the series. I'm wavering a little on that but I still don't think it'll be "let's do the same government but with a good Targaryen on top, and no worries about the how the 'gods flip a coin' will go for his kids and grandkids". A fundamental shift seems to fit the themes of the show.
I've thought for a long time there'd be no Iron Throne/monarchy at the end of the series. I'm wavering a little on that but I still don't think it'll be "let's do the same government but with a good Targaryen on top, and no worries about the how the 'gods flip a coin' will go for his kids and grandkids". A fundamental shift seems to fit the themes of the show.
I've heard rumors of this type of ending, but the way the show has been written, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Let's say they move to a system of delegates or a Council of Lords. Who are those delegates? A handful of folks from Winterfell and King's Landing, all of whom are presently aligned with one another?
My prediction for the final episode:
Jon is going to demand the iron throne formally as the true heir knowing dany cant rule. Dany is going to tell him either he is a usurper or he is who he says he is and Drogon will burn him. If he walks out the throne is his. If he doesnt hes a usurper and dies like he deserves.
He either walks out OR what I like even better is Drogon refuses the dracarys order and wont burn Jon. Final betrayal of dany by her child.
I am refusing to google or reddit any GoT this week in fear of leaks so please dont respond if you actually know what happens!
I'm pretty sure all the characters were released. It's going to be the usual suspects, plus everyone from Winterfell as well as Bronn and Gendry.Anyone else worried that Jon Snow is not in the episode 6 trailer?
That would be the most Season 8 thing ever. No mention of Jon in the finale, other than a brief "I heard Jon plans to live out his days beyond the wall with his direwolf" from Tyrion.
Jon will end up on the throne. This has always been a story about him. The only way he wouldn't have ended up on the throne would have been if he had to die to kill the Night King (and you know save humanity). Even with as crappy as the last two seasons have been, I just can't believe they would get that wrong and frankly if Jon wasn't going to end up on the throne there would have been no reason for the super Mad Queen turn by Dany.
the problem with this is, I have no faith at all that the nitwits writing the show will actually get anything right, as they have clearly blown this season on so many levels. Terrible writing all around, I expect that to continue into the finals.Jon will end up on the throne. This has always been a story about him. The only way he wouldn't have ended up on the throne would have been if he had to die to kill the Night King (and you know save humanity). Even with as crappy as the last two seasons have been, I just can't believe they would get that wrong and frankly if Jon wasn't going to end up on the throne there would have been no reason for the super Mad Queen turn by Dany.
A story not following a personal interpretation of how it ought to end doesn't mean the story got it "wrong", if anything it means the interpreter did. The broader idea is probably accurate, but the story can just as easily be about Jon if he sacrifices himself to kill a tyrannical Dany, or spurns the throne to reform the Nights' Watch (parallels to Aemon), or reveals he's a secret Child of the Forest and runs away. It's all good as long as he's central to the overall story we see. He doesn't have to rule happily ever after or even be around for the "ever after".
the problem with this is, I have no faith at all that the nitwits writing the show will actually get anything right, as they have clearly blown this season on so many levels. Terrible writing all around, I expect that to continue into the finals.Jon will end up on the throne. This has always been a story about him. The only way he wouldn't have ended up on the throne would have been if he had to die to kill the Night King (and you know save humanity). Even with as crappy as the last two seasons have been, I just can't believe they would get that wrong and frankly if Jon wasn't going to end up on the throne there would have been no reason for the super Mad Queen turn by Dany.
A story not following a personal interpretation of how it ought to end doesn't mean the story got it "wrong", if anything it means the interpreter did. The broader idea is probably accurate, but the story can just as easily be about Jon if he sacrifices himself to kill a tyrannical Dany, or spurns the throne to reform the Nights' Watch (parallels to Aemon), or reveals he's a secret Child of the Forest and runs away. It's all good as long as he's central to the overall story we see. He doesn't have to rule happily ever after or even be around for the "ever after".
the problem with this is, I have no faith at all that the nitwits writing the show will actually get anything right,
the problem with this is, I have no faith at all that the nitwits writing the show will actually get anything right, as they have clearly blown this season on so many levels. Terrible writing all around, I expect that to continue into the finals.Jon will end up on the throne. This has always been a story about him. The only way he wouldn't have ended up on the throne would have been if he had to die to kill the Night King (and you know save humanity). Even with as crappy as the last two seasons have been, I just can't believe they would get that wrong and frankly if Jon wasn't going to end up on the throne there would have been no reason for the super Mad Queen turn by Dany.
A story not following a personal interpretation of how it ought to end doesn't mean the story got it "wrong", if anything it means the interpreter did. The broader idea is probably accurate, but the story can just as easily be about Jon if he sacrifices himself to kill a tyrannical Dany, or spurns the throne to reform the Nights' Watch (parallels to Aemon), or reveals he's a secret Child of the Forest and runs away. It's all good as long as he's central to the overall story we see. He doesn't have to rule happily ever after or even be around for the "ever after".
This is the only TV series I have gone into feeling less and less motivated to watch each episode in a final season. The hype died with the long wait and then after each episode the disappointment builds. They should have let another group take over the series after year 5.
Here's the ending that would redeem it all for me:
Arya is returning to the city to kill Dany when she sees a mysterious Braavosi boat docking on the beach. Sneaking over to it, she watches Iron Bank representatives deliver a large crate to Jon Snow. She rushes down to greet him and team up against Dany but he suddenly pulls off his face and reveals himself to be Jaqen the Faceless Man, who explains that Jon was never resurrected, merely replaced while his dead body was hidden by sliding it under a dumpster. The Dragon Queen feeds the Many-faced God, and Arya had angered him by killing his avatar and destroying his army. They fight, and Arya is thrown into the crate, breaking it and revealing it's full of dragon eggs. Dany steps into view. "Valar Morghulis" she says as Jaqen runs Arya through.
The end scene is Sam in the Citadel writing the history of how House Targaryen wiped out the usurper scum and returned to their rightful glory with fire and blood. Outside, a flock of young dragons fly by.
Fingers crossed!
Quotethe problem with this is, I have no faith at all that the nitwits writing the show will actually get anything right,
They have the story end from Martin, so it is likely that they will get the ending right.
Jon will end up on the throne. This has always been a story about him. The only way he wouldn't have ended up on the throne would have been if he had to die to kill the Night King (and you know save humanity). Even with as crappy as the last two seasons have been, I just can't believe they would get that wrong and frankly if Jon wasn't going to end up on the throne there would have been no reason for the super Mad Queen turn by Dany.
If Game of Thrones has always been about anything, it's been about how the drive of certain people to gain and maintain power, be those people "good" or "bad," is inherently in conflict with the peace and happiness of people in general, and the impotence of "principled" or "moral" people to do much of anything to stop the chaos that results from the ruthless climbers' endless fighting for pole position.
In other words, "We can't have nice things."
Jon does have something that looks like a standard hero's journey, but so does Danaerys. To me it's fairly obvious that they are meant to be two sides of the same coin in this story, and that the ways in which they are similar and the ways in which they are completely different serve to advance that main theme.
It makes complete sense that Danaerys's drive for power would end up destroying the world instead of making it better, and that Jon's commitment to being "good" instead of seeking power for himself will prevent him from achieving happiness. Maybe he will kill Danaerys and prevent a reign of terror, but it wouldn't make sense for him to become the "good wise king who rules for fifty years" at the end of it.
I expect that the story will end on a hopeful note, but I don't expect it to seem like things will all be good and well for our main characters for the rest of time, or that the world is in a much better position than it was at the beginning. Except for the White Walkers having been defeated, I suppose.
I'm still not sure how the White Walkers or the Night King were supposed to fit into all of this. Maybe the books will make that clearer.
Jon will not end up on the throne. He will kill Dany and refuse the "throne", unless Drogon melts it down, in which case there will not be one. He will go north and live with the "free folk" with Tormund and Ghost.
Somehow Bran will end up ruling Westeros. He did some sneaky sh!t that we'll finally get to find out in the finale.
This will be an effed up ending. I will watch it though, as I did the Sopranos. Some of you know how bizarre that ending was.
It makes complete sense that Danaerys's drive for power would end up destroying the world instead of making it better, and that Jon's commitment to being "good" instead of seeking power for himself will prevent him from achieving happiness. Maybe he will kill Danaerys and prevent a reign of terror, but it wouldn't make sense for him to become the "good wise king who rules for fifty years" at the end of it.
Jaehaerys I Targaryen, also known as the Conciliator, the Wise or the Old King, was the fourth Targaryen king to sit the Iron Throne. He ascended the throne in 48 AC following the death of his uncle, Maegor I Targaryen. Jaehaerys was the longest reigning Targaryen monarch, sitting on the throne for fifty-five years. He was a dragonrider, riding Vermithor, the largest dragon after Balerion and Vhagar.
Jaehaerys was wise beyond his years.[8][9] He was fair-spoken, open-handed, and as chivalrous as he was courageous.[10] According to Grand Maester Benifer Jaehaerys was "learned as a maester and pious as a septon". Although Benifer might have attempted to flatter Jaehaerys with such a statement, according to Archmaester Gyldayn there was some truth to it as well.[10] Queen Alyssa, Jaehaerys's mother, is reported to have called Jaehaerys "the best of my three sons".[10]
Jaehaerys was decisive in both thought and deed, and always sought the most peaceable ends.[8] In times of trouble, instead of brooding on the issues, Jaehaerys would shrug off his sorrows and plunge himself into his work.[11][5] He never acted without thinking,[12] and did not trust in chance.[4] Nor did Jaehaerys like to make outright threats, but had other ways of making his disapproval felt. According to the Sealord of Braavos, Jaehaerys was very skillful in making veiled threats.[5]
Ned's claim to the throne was basically as strong as Robert's, but Ned didn't want it and Robert did. By that logic, if there are no Targ's then the sons of both Ned and Robert would have about an equal claim to the throne, which would put Bran around the same claim as Gendry (assuming you accept him as not a Edited for profanity. Please do not do it again.). So if Dany and Jon are both out of the picture, Bran's claim might very well be the strongest one (since you know he wasn't a Edited for profanity. Please do not do it again. and presumably would have the support of the north).Jon will not end up on the throne. He will kill Dany and refuse the "throne", unless Drogon melts it down, in which case there will not be one. He will go north and live with the "free folk" with Tormund and Ghost.
Somehow Bran will end up ruling Westeros. He did some sneaky sh!t that we'll finally get to find out in the finale.
This will be an effed up ending. I will watch it though, as I did the Sopranos. Some of you know how bizarre that ending was.
How would Bran end up being king? He has no claim to the throne.
Jon was raised his life like he was a Edited for profanity. Please do not do it again.. His "step mother" hated him and he was always looked down upon by everyone. He was an after thought. Imagine though if he had been raised his whole life like he was going to be heir to the throne. I think you would have seen him turn out much more like Jahaery and would have had the desire and confidence needed to rule effectively.
It makes complete sense that Danaerys's drive for power would end up destroying the world instead of making it better, and that Jon's commitment to being "good" instead of seeking power for himself will prevent him from achieving happiness. Maybe he will kill Danaerys and prevent a reign of terror, but it wouldn't make sense for him to become the "good wise king who rules for fifty years" at the end of it.
I think looking to "Fire and Blood" is a good way to see what Martin thinks is the type of person who is the "ideal" ruler in this universe.
King Jahaerys Targaryen is the main standout in that regard.
From the wiki:QuoteJaehaerys I Targaryen, also known as the Conciliator, the Wise or the Old King, was the fourth Targaryen king to sit the Iron Throne. He ascended the throne in 48 AC following the death of his uncle, Maegor I Targaryen. Jaehaerys was the longest reigning Targaryen monarch, sitting on the throne for fifty-five years. He was a dragonrider, riding Vermithor, the largest dragon after Balerion and Vhagar.QuoteJaehaerys was wise beyond his years.[8][9] He was fair-spoken, open-handed, and as chivalrous as he was courageous.[10] According to Grand Maester Benifer Jaehaerys was "learned as a maester and pious as a septon". Although Benifer might have attempted to flatter Jaehaerys with such a statement, according to Archmaester Gyldayn there was some truth to it as well.[10] Queen Alyssa, Jaehaerys's mother, is reported to have called Jaehaerys "the best of my three sons".[10]
Jaehaerys was decisive in both thought and deed, and always sought the most peaceable ends.[8] In times of trouble, instead of brooding on the issues, Jaehaerys would shrug off his sorrows and plunge himself into his work.[11][5] He never acted without thinking,[12] and did not trust in chance.[4] Nor did Jaehaerys like to make outright threats, but had other ways of making his disapproval felt. According to the Sealord of Braavos, Jaehaerys was very skillful in making veiled threats.[5]
You can hear some things there that sounds a bit like Jon, but the main difference is that Jaeharys was all about compromise. He was known as "The Conciliator." He was pragmatic. He was also proud and severe. He understood the need to command respect.
Whereas Jon is quiet and self-effacing to the point of being almost meek, in some ways. He makes no bones about the fact that he doesn't want power.
Jahaerys knew he was destined to be king from birth. He was raised to the throne when he was still a child. From the beginning he acted like a person who had spent a lot of time thinking about the fact that he would be king. He embraced power, but seemed to recognize that the only way to keep it would be to not abuse it.
One way to put it might be that Jahaerys was always so secure in the knowledge of his own power that he didn't feel desperate to hoard it, flaunt it, or preemptively strike at those that might try to take it from him.
Jahaery's major defining actions were initially pardoning the lords that had sided with his predecessor, Maegor the cruel, and later undertaking to codify a set of laws to govern the entire seven kingdoms.
I'm not sure I see anybody in the current cast of characters who is really analogous to Jahaerys.
Ned's claim to the throne was basically as strong as Robert's, but Ned didn't want it and Robert did. By that logic, if there are no Targ's then the sons of both Ned and Robert would have about an equal claim to the throne, which would put Bran around the same claim as Gendry (assuming you accept him as not a ****). So if Dany and Jon are both out of the picture, Bran's claim might very well be the strongest one (since you know he wasn't a **** and presumably would have the support of the north).Jon will not end up on the throne. He will kill Dany and refuse the "throne", unless Drogon melts it down, in which case there will not be one. He will go north and live with the "free folk" with Tormund and Ghost.
Somehow Bran will end up ruling Westeros. He did some sneaky sh!t that we'll finally get to find out in the finale.
This will be an effed up ending. I will watch it though, as I did the Sopranos. Some of you know how bizarre that ending was.
How would Bran end up being king? He has no claim to the throne.
Jon was raised his life like he was a ****. His "step mother" hated him and he was always looked down upon by everyone. He was an after thought. Imagine though if he had been raised his whole life like he was going to be heir to the throne. I think you would have seen him turn out much more like Jahaery and would have had the desire and confidence needed to rule effectively.
I'm not sure I see anybody in the current cast of characters who is really analogous to Jahaerys.
The books are a called a Song of Fire and Ice. Jon is both fire and ice by birth. The prophecies littered throughout the book about the savior all directly apply to Jon much more so than anyone else. He was supposed to be the person to save humanity (and yet they messed it up by having Arya do it). In order to fulfill that prophecy to allow him to vanquish the Night King, he will have to kill his love (i.e. Dany). The books are going to get to the ending in a much different way, but in that ending Jon will either die killing the Night King or end up on the throne. That is how the books have been shaping up this whole time. The other characters are all vessels or a means to reach that end. Frankly, the books are in such a different place, I think they end up on vastly divergent paths from the show, but ultimately will have some of the themes from the show present.Jon will end up on the throne. This has always been a story about him. The only way he wouldn't have ended up on the throne would have been if he had to die to kill the Night King (and you know save humanity). Even with as crappy as the last two seasons have been, I just can't believe they would get that wrong and frankly if Jon wasn't going to end up on the throne there would have been no reason for the super Mad Queen turn by Dany.
In what way?
If Game of Thrones has always been about anything, it's been about how the drive of certain people to gain and maintain power, be those people "good" or "bad," is inherently in conflict with the peace and happiness of people in general, and the impotence of "principled" or "moral" people to do much of anything to stop the chaos that results from the ruthless climbers' endless fighting for pole position.
In other words, "We can't have nice things."
Jon does have something that looks like a standard hero's journey, but so does Danaerys. To me it's fairly obvious that they are meant to be two sides of the same coin in this story, and that the ways in which they are similar and the ways in which they are completely different serve to advance that main theme.
It makes complete sense that Danaerys's drive for power would end up destroying the world instead of making it better, and that Jon's commitment to being "good" instead of seeking power for himself will prevent him from achieving happiness. Maybe he will kill Danaerys and prevent a reign of terror, but it wouldn't make sense for him to become the "good wise king who rules for fifty years" at the end of it.
I expect that the story will end on a hopeful note, but I don't expect it to seem like things will all be good and well for our main characters for the rest of time, or that the world is in a much better position than it was at the beginning. Except for the White Walkers having been defeated, I suppose.
I'm still not sure how the White Walkers or the Night King were supposed to fit into all of this. Maybe the books will make that clearer.
True, but he is 18 or whatever, I think he would get there and I do think he will step up at the end of the day because there isn't anyone else. Jon cares and he will do the right thing.Jon was raised his life like he was a ****. His "step mother" hated him and he was always looked down upon by everyone. He was an after thought. Imagine though if he had been raised his whole life like he was going to be heir to the throne. I think you would have seen him turn out much more like Jahaery and would have had the desire and confidence needed to rule effectively.
Probably, but that's not who he is.
Bran doesn't really have a claim. He's the 3-eyed raven now. Since the Red Keep is demolished and once Drogon melts down the throne there will no longer be a "King". He'll just rule Westeros with a small council. He can't even have kids (unless he worgs a child lol) so there's that a well. Stupid ending but this is what can be expected with this show.Jon will not end up on the throne. He will kill Dany and refuse the "throne", unless Drogon melts it down, in which case there will not be one. He will go north and live with the "free folk" with Tormund and Ghost.
Somehow Bran will end up ruling Westeros. He did some sneaky sh!t that we'll finally get to find out in the finale.
This will be an effed up ending. I will watch it though, as I did the Sopranos. Some of you know how bizarre that ending was.
How would Bran end up being king? He has no claim to the throne.
The books are a called a Song of Fire and Ice. Jon is both fire and ice by birth.
You might like this article BTW - it's about how the show got bad because after it outpaced the book it shifted from Martin's sociological focus to Hollywood's focus on individual characters and cinematic moments.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/ (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/)
Jon will not end up on the throne. He will kill Dany and refuse the "throne", unless Drogon melts it down, in which case there will not be one. He will go north and live with the "free folk" with Tormund and Ghost.Looks like someone has seen the supposed spoilers on Reddit or around the internet.
Somehow Bran will end up ruling Westeros. He did some sneaky sh!t that we'll finally get to find out in the finale.
This will be an effed up ending. I will watch it though, as I did the Sopranos. Some of you know how bizarre that ending was.
Jon will not end up on the throne. He will kill Dany and refuse the "throne", unless Drogon melts it down, in which case there will not be one. He will go north and live with the "free folk" with Tormund and Ghost.Looks like someone has seen the supposed spoilers on Reddit or around the internet.
Somehow Bran will end up ruling Westeros. He did some sneaky sh!t that we'll finally get to find out in the finale.
This will be an effed up ending. I will watch it though, as I did the Sopranos. Some of you know how bizarre that ending was.
Jon will not end up on the throne. He will kill Dany and refuse the "throne", unless Drogon melts it down, in which case there will not be one. He will go north and live with the "free folk" with Tormund and Ghost.Looks like someone has seen the supposed spoilers on Reddit or around the internet.
Somehow Bran will end up ruling Westeros. He did some sneaky sh!t that we'll finally get to find out in the finale.
This will be an effed up ending. I will watch it though, as I did the Sopranos. Some of you know how bizarre that ending was.
Yeah I wasn't going to comment on that aspect of it.
Jon will not end up on the throne. He will kill Dany and refuse the "throne", unless Drogon melts it down, in which case there will not be one. He will go north and live with the "free folk" with Tormund and Ghost.Looks like someone has seen the supposed spoilers on Reddit or around the internet.
Somehow Bran will end up ruling Westeros. He did some sneaky sh!t that we'll finally get to find out in the finale.
This will be an effed up ending. I will watch it though, as I did the Sopranos. Some of you know how bizarre that ending was.
Yeah I wasn't going to comment on that aspect of it.
Bran ruling would be as ridiculous as some of the other plot decisions that came out of nowhere, so sure, that makes sense. A cripple with no allegiance from the populace who speaks in fragmented, cryptic sentences and doesnt consider himself to be a human, and who has shown zero leadership, strategy, or desire to rule, would make a great king, at least until he was knifed 2 hours after being crowned.
I could see Jon leaving, but only if a firm plan that would sustain peace was in place. King Bran wouldnt really achieve that goal.
Jon will not end up on the throne. He will kill Dany and refuse the "throne", unless Drogon melts it down, in which case there will not be one. He will go north and live with the "free folk" with Tormund and Ghost.Looks like someone has seen the supposed spoilers on Reddit or around the internet.
Somehow Bran will end up ruling Westeros. He did some sneaky sh!t that we'll finally get to find out in the finale.
This will be an effed up ending. I will watch it though, as I did the Sopranos. Some of you know how bizarre that ending was.
Yeah I wasn't going to comment on that aspect of it.
Bran ruling would be as ridiculous as some of the other plot decisions that came out of nowhere, so sure, that makes sense. A cripple with no allegiance from the populace who speaks in fragmented, cryptic sentences and doesnt consider himself to be a human, and who has shown zero leadership, strategy, or desire to rule, would make a great king, at least until he was knifed 2 hours after being crowned.
I could see Jon leaving, but only if a firm plan that would sustain peace was in place. King Bran wouldnt really achieve that goal.
Jon will not end up on the throne. He will kill Dany and refuse the "throne", unless Drogon melts it down, in which case there will not be one. He will go north and live with the "free folk" with Tormund and Ghost.Looks like someone has seen the supposed spoilers on Reddit or around the internet.
Somehow Bran will end up ruling Westeros. He did some sneaky sh!t that we'll finally get to find out in the finale.
This will be an effed up ending. I will watch it though, as I did the Sopranos. Some of you know how bizarre that ending was.
Yeah I wasn't going to comment on that aspect of it.
Bran ruling would be as ridiculous as some of the other plot decisions that came out of nowhere, so sure, that makes sense. A cripple with no allegiance from the populace who speaks in fragmented, cryptic sentences and doesnt consider himself to be a human, and who has shown zero leadership, strategy, or desire to rule, would make a great king, at least until he was knifed 2 hours after being crowned.
I could see Jon leaving, but only if a firm plan that would sustain peace was in place. King Bran wouldnt really achieve that goal.
I think the populace would be lukewarm but mildly favorable to replacing dragonfire with defenestration.
In any event if Bran does wind up in charge somehow, you've gotta believe that's how it's supposed to go down in the books too.
My issue is more that I can't imagine the various important people agreeing that Bran should be king. That may not matter if he becomes king by virtue of being the eldest legitimate male Stark, but I find it sort of implausible that the Starks would be seen to have a legitimate claim to the throne. Assuming he doesn't have a traditional claim to the throne, he would have to be chosen by a council, which means the various heads of houses (such that remain) would have to agree that Bran is the best choice.
That seems very improbable for all the reasons you mentioned.
I have a harder time seeing a satisfying ending with King Bran, but Im confident in Martins abilities,
I want to read the books still to come because they will go into detail about how the characters act and their motivations for acting that way. We will be able to see Jamie's redemption arc was always doomed. We will be able to see Dany going slowly mad than instantly. We will see that Varys didn't just become the stupidest spy in the world rather than the smartest. Etc. Etc. Etc.
I think the story arc in the books will be extremely similar to the television show. I just think through writing from the perspective of each individual character, we will learn those character's thinkings, motivations and desires in detail which will explain the overall story better.
At the very least, the timeline will be better and we might get some explanations as to why the prophecies were off and why.
My issue is more that I can't imagine the various important people agreeing that Bran should be king. That may not matter if he becomes king by virtue of being the eldest legitimate male Stark, but I find it sort of implausible that the Starks would be seen to have a legitimate claim to the throne. Assuming he doesn't have a traditional claim to the throne, he would have to be chosen by a council, which means the various heads of houses (such that remain) would have to agree that Bran is the best choice.
That seems very improbable for all the reasons you mentioned.
I mean he can literally see the past, he could be Littlefinger x1000 and just blackmail his way in if he felt like it. But if it happens bringing the North into the fold plus having supernatural vision and knowledge and being too Dr Manhattan apathetic to do anything horrible with it would make his case.
if the 2 Targs are off the table Bran probably is next in line as Ned and Robert had almost identical claims, but Ned didn't want it and Robert didJon will not end up on the throne. He will kill Dany and refuse the "throne", unless Drogon melts it down, in which case there will not be one. He will go north and live with the "free folk" with Tormund and Ghost.Looks like someone has seen the supposed spoilers on Reddit or around the internet.
Somehow Bran will end up ruling Westeros. He did some sneaky sh!t that we'll finally get to find out in the finale.
This will be an effed up ending. I will watch it though, as I did the Sopranos. Some of you know how bizarre that ending was.
Yeah I wasn't going to comment on that aspect of it.
Bran ruling would be as ridiculous as some of the other plot decisions that came out of nowhere, so sure, that makes sense. A cripple with no allegiance from the populace who speaks in fragmented, cryptic sentences and doesnt consider himself to be a human, and who has shown zero leadership, strategy, or desire to rule, would make a great king, at least until he was knifed 2 hours after being crowned.
I could see Jon leaving, but only if a firm plan that would sustain peace was in place. King Bran wouldnt really achieve that goal.
My issue is more that I can't imagine the various important people agreeing that Bran should be king. That may not matter if he becomes king by virtue of being the eldest legitimate male Stark, but I find it sort of implausible that the Starks would be seen to have a legitimate claim to the throne. Assuming he doesn't have a traditional claim to the throne, he would have to be chosen by a council, which means the various heads of houses (such that remain) would have to agree that Bran is the best choice.
That seems very improbable for all the reasons you mentioned.
If it becomes known that Jon has the best claim, and Dany becomes dead, if Jon turns it down, because he is half Stark, does that give the Stark line the best claim to the thrown being that he is Stark on his mother's side?if the 2 Targs are off the table Bran probably is next in line as Ned and Robert had almost identical claims, but Ned didn't want it and Robert didJon will not end up on the throne. He will kill Dany and refuse the "throne", unless Drogon melts it down, in which case there will not be one. He will go north and live with the "free folk" with Tormund and Ghost.Looks like someone has seen the supposed spoilers on Reddit or around the internet.
Somehow Bran will end up ruling Westeros. He did some sneaky sh!t that we'll finally get to find out in the finale.
This will be an effed up ending. I will watch it though, as I did the Sopranos. Some of you know how bizarre that ending was.
Yeah I wasn't going to comment on that aspect of it.
Bran ruling would be as ridiculous as some of the other plot decisions that came out of nowhere, so sure, that makes sense. A cripple with no allegiance from the populace who speaks in fragmented, cryptic sentences and doesnt consider himself to be a human, and who has shown zero leadership, strategy, or desire to rule, would make a great king, at least until he was knifed 2 hours after being crowned.
I could see Jon leaving, but only if a firm plan that would sustain peace was in place. King Bran wouldnt really achieve that goal.
My issue is more that I can't imagine the various important people agreeing that Bran should be king. That may not matter if he becomes king by virtue of being the eldest legitimate male Stark, but I find it sort of implausible that the Starks would be seen to have a legitimate claim to the throne. Assuming he doesn't have a traditional claim to the throne, he would have to be chosen by a council, which means the various heads of houses (such that remain) would have to agree that Bran is the best choice.
That seems very improbable for all the reasons you mentioned.
If it becomes known that Jon has the best claim, and Dany becomes dead, if Jon turns it down, because he is half Stark, does that give the Stark line the best claim to the thrown being that he is Stark on his mother's side?
want to read the books still to come because they will go into detail about how the characters act and their motivations for acting that way. We will be able to see Jamie's redemption arc was always doomed. We will be able to see Dany going slowly mad than instantly. We will see that Varys didn't just become the stupidest spy in the world rather than the smartest. Etc. Etc. Etc.
I am giving it one more episode to improve and then I am quitting watching it if it does not. JKOh I started reading the books back in the late 90's. I have read every book 5 times. I am just waiting for the next ones that haven't been released. I think the manner in which Martin tells his story will provide the depth and explain some stuff better than the television show. I think the detail and explanations some desire will be better found in the books yet to come.QuoteIf it becomes known that Jon has the best claim, and Dany becomes dead, if Jon turns it down, because he is half Stark, does that give the Stark line the best claim to the thrown being that he is Stark on his mother's side?
Nope, Gendry would have the best claim, after Jon, being the **** ( but now legitmized) son of Robert Barratheon.Quotewant to read the books still to come because they will go into detail about how the characters act and their motivations for acting that way. We will be able to see Jamie's redemption arc was always doomed. We will be able to see Dany going slowly mad than instantly. We will see that Varys didn't just become the stupidest spy in the world rather than the smartest. Etc. Etc. Etc.
The audible books were great if you want to give those a try.
I want to read the books still to come because they will go into detail about how the characters act and their motivations for acting that way. We will be able to see Jamie's redemption arc was always doomed. We will be able to see Dany going slowly mad than instantly. We will see that Varys didn't just become the stupidest spy in the world rather than the smartest. Etc. Etc. Etc.On "The Watch" podcast Chris Ryan made a comment about how watching this season is like reading a wikipedia entry for the story. Pretty accurate. It just feels like a list of plot points lots of context missing.
I think the story arc in the books will be extremely similar to the television show. I just think through writing from the perspective of each individual character, we will learn those character's thinkings, motivations and desires in detail which will explain the overall story better.
At the very least, the timeline will be better and we might get some explanations as to why the prophecies were off and why.
Well apparently D&D wanted the surprises to keep coming so they held back of giving up too much content that would allow viewers to see what was coming. It's been a blunder for this season and hurt things last season.I want to read the books still to come because they will go into detail about how the characters act and their motivations for acting that way. We will be able to see Jamie's redemption arc was always doomed. We will be able to see Dany going slowly mad than instantly. We will see that Varys didn't just become the stupidest spy in the world rather than the smartest. Etc. Etc. Etc.On "The Watch" podcast Chris Ryan made a comment about how watching this season is like reading a wikipedia entry for the story. Pretty accurate. It just feels like a list of plot points lots of context missing.
I think the story arc in the books will be extremely similar to the television show. I just think through writing from the perspective of each individual character, we will learn those character's thinkings, motivations and desires in detail which will explain the overall story better.
At the very least, the timeline will be better and we might get some explanations as to why the prophecies were off and why.
I want to read the books still to come because they will go into detail about how the characters act and their motivations for acting that way. We will be able to see Jamie's redemption arc was always doomed. We will be able to see Dany going slowly mad than instantly. We will see that Varys didn't just become the stupidest spy in the world rather than the smartest. Etc. Etc. Etc.
I think the story arc in the books will be extremely similar to the television show. I just think through writing from the perspective of each individual character, we will learn those character's thinkings, motivations and desires in detail which will explain the overall story better.
At the very least, the timeline will be better and we might get some explanations as to why the prophecies were off and why.
I think he goes back, but I think he will kill her actually fulfilling that prophecy.I want to read the books still to come because they will go into detail about how the characters act and their motivations for acting that way. We will be able to see Jamie's redemption arc was always doomed. We will be able to see Dany going slowly mad than instantly. We will see that Varys didn't just become the stupidest spy in the world rather than the smartest. Etc. Etc. Etc.
I think the story arc in the books will be extremely similar to the television show. I just think through writing from the perspective of each individual character, we will learn those character's thinkings, motivations and desires in detail which will explain the overall story better.
At the very least, the timeline will be better and we might get some explanations as to why the prophecies were off and why.
I assume you're basing this on an old GRRM quote, where he said something similar. I believe that was during one of the first few seasons.
Well, since then, Martin has said several times that he doesn't agree with the path the show has taken. Word on the street is that Martin and the show runners had a falling out sometimes during season 3 or 4, which is also the reason why Martin has stopped guest writing an episode per season.
So, I disagree with you. I'm pretty sure this is not how the books will end. Yes, Dany will go mad, but Arya won't kill the Night King, and I will eat a hardcover edition of Winds of Winter if book Jaime goes back to Cersei at this point.
I think he goes back, but I think he will kill her actually fulfilling that prophecy.
Rather hard for Arya to kill a character that doesn't exist in the books.I want to read the books still to come because they will go into detail about how the characters act and their motivations for acting that way. We will be able to see Jamie's redemption arc was always doomed. We will be able to see Dany going slowly mad than instantly. We will see that Varys didn't just become the stupidest spy in the world rather than the smartest. Etc. Etc. Etc.
I think the story arc in the books will be extremely similar to the television show. I just think through writing from the perspective of each individual character, we will learn those character's thinkings, motivations and desires in detail which will explain the overall story better.
At the very least, the timeline will be better and we might get some explanations as to why the prophecies were off and why.
I assume you're basing this on an old GRRM quote, where he said something similar. I believe that was during one of the first few seasons.
Well, since then, Martin has said several times that he doesn't agree with the path the show has taken. Word on the street is that Martin and the show runners had a falling out sometimes during season 3 or 4, which is also the reason why Martin has stopped guest writing an episode per season.
So, I disagree with you. I'm pretty sure this is not how the books will end. Yes, Dany will go mad, but Arya won't kill the Night King, and I will eat a hardcover edition of Winds of Winter if book Jaime goes back to Cersei at this point.
except they basically admitted that they came up with Arya killing the Night King. I got the very distinct impression that wasn't from MartinRather hard for Arya to kill a character that doesn't exist in the books.I want to read the books still to come because they will go into detail about how the characters act and their motivations for acting that way. We will be able to see Jamie's redemption arc was always doomed. We will be able to see Dany going slowly mad than instantly. We will see that Varys didn't just become the stupidest spy in the world rather than the smartest. Etc. Etc. Etc.
I think the story arc in the books will be extremely similar to the television show. I just think through writing from the perspective of each individual character, we will learn those character's thinkings, motivations and desires in detail which will explain the overall story better.
At the very least, the timeline will be better and we might get some explanations as to why the prophecies were off and why.
I assume you're basing this on an old GRRM quote, where he said something similar. I believe that was during one of the first few seasons.
Well, since then, Martin has said several times that he doesn't agree with the path the show has taken. Word on the street is that Martin and the show runners had a falling out sometimes during season 3 or 4, which is also the reason why Martin has stopped guest writing an episode per season.
So, I disagree with you. I'm pretty sure this is not how the books will end. Yes, Dany will go mad, but Arya won't kill the Night King, and I will eat a hardcover edition of Winds of Winter if book Jaime goes back to Cersei at this point.
And you are forgetting that Martin shared his ending of the series with Weiss and Benioff once television went beyond the source material. The show has had the ending and general path to get there for many years as given by Martin.
Now Martin could see how the show did things and completely change some stuff and his general method of 1st person POV storytelling from 20 different characters should also explain a ton more in detail. But the general story arc I think will be followed with the same general ending.
How could it come from Martin? The Night King is a made up television character(so far as we know...maybe he is introduced in coming books), so, of course Arya killing the Night King isn't from Martin.except they basically admitted that they came up with Arya killing the Night King. I got the very distinct impression that wasn't from MartinRather hard for Arya to kill a character that doesn't exist in the books.I want to read the books still to come because they will go into detail about how the characters act and their motivations for acting that way. We will be able to see Jamie's redemption arc was always doomed. We will be able to see Dany going slowly mad than instantly. We will see that Varys didn't just become the stupidest spy in the world rather than the smartest. Etc. Etc. Etc.
I think the story arc in the books will be extremely similar to the television show. I just think through writing from the perspective of each individual character, we will learn those character's thinkings, motivations and desires in detail which will explain the overall story better.
At the very least, the timeline will be better and we might get some explanations as to why the prophecies were off and why.
I assume you're basing this on an old GRRM quote, where he said something similar. I believe that was during one of the first few seasons.
Well, since then, Martin has said several times that he doesn't agree with the path the show has taken. Word on the street is that Martin and the show runners had a falling out sometimes during season 3 or 4, which is also the reason why Martin has stopped guest writing an episode per season.
So, I disagree with you. I'm pretty sure this is not how the books will end. Yes, Dany will go mad, but Arya won't kill the Night King, and I will eat a hardcover edition of Winds of Winter if book Jaime goes back to Cersei at this point.
And you are forgetting that Martin shared his ending of the series with Weiss and Benioff once television went beyond the source material. The show has had the ending and general path to get there for many years as given by Martin.
Now Martin could see how the show did things and completely change some stuff and his general method of 1st person POV storytelling from 20 different characters should also explain a ton more in detail. But the general story arc I think will be followed with the same general ending.
the Night King is referenced in the books and is clearly something Martin will have, he will just fulfill the prophecy. That is why the prophecy is littered throughout the books. It isn't a red herring that has no meaning and the simple truth is Arya just doesn't fit the prophecy at all and even if she did she didn't do what the prophecy called for. That is why I believe it was a creation of the D&D and not something they got from Martin.How could it come from Martin? The Night King is a made up television character(so far as we know...maybe he is introduced in coming books), so, of course Arya killing the Night King isn't from Martin.except they basically admitted that they came up with Arya killing the Night King. I got the very distinct impression that wasn't from MartinRather hard for Arya to kill a character that doesn't exist in the books.I want to read the books still to come because they will go into detail about how the characters act and their motivations for acting that way. We will be able to see Jamie's redemption arc was always doomed. We will be able to see Dany going slowly mad than instantly. We will see that Varys didn't just become the stupidest spy in the world rather than the smartest. Etc. Etc. Etc.
I think the story arc in the books will be extremely similar to the television show. I just think through writing from the perspective of each individual character, we will learn those character's thinkings, motivations and desires in detail which will explain the overall story better.
At the very least, the timeline will be better and we might get some explanations as to why the prophecies were off and why.
I assume you're basing this on an old GRRM quote, where he said something similar. I believe that was during one of the first few seasons.
Well, since then, Martin has said several times that he doesn't agree with the path the show has taken. Word on the street is that Martin and the show runners had a falling out sometimes during season 3 or 4, which is also the reason why Martin has stopped guest writing an episode per season.
So, I disagree with you. I'm pretty sure this is not how the books will end. Yes, Dany will go mad, but Arya won't kill the Night King, and I will eat a hardcover edition of Winds of Winter if book Jaime goes back to Cersei at this point.
And you are forgetting that Martin shared his ending of the series with Weiss and Benioff once television went beyond the source material. The show has had the ending and general path to get there for many years as given by Martin.
Now Martin could see how the show did things and completely change some stuff and his general method of 1st person POV storytelling from 20 different characters should also explain a ton more in detail. But the general story arc I think will be followed with the same general ending.
But if there is no Night King, then the Battle of Winterfell has to be won, so how? Should be interesting. I also think Arya will be handled quite differently. For instance, I think Lady Stoneheart kills off the Freys.
🤢🤮😵I don't watch the show, but this had me lol
Lol this is unbelievably bad.
I thought the first half of the episode through Jon killing dany and drogon going nuts was excellent. Lot of good dialogue and tension building.I agree good first half with a long good bye second half that was ok.
I thought the first half of the episode through Jon killing dany and drogon going nuts was excellent. Lot of good dialogue and tension building.
My predictions for finale:
Jon kills Dany cause shes crazy
Jon says eff this place goes back to the Wildlings and Tornund
Sansa becomes queen of the Winterfell
Gendry gets Kings Landing
Tyrion becomes hand to Gendry
Bran continues to do nothing and just collect disability
Honestly no idea how they tie out the rest of the characters story arcs (Brienne/Arya/Bronn/Greyworm/Sir Davos) in the remaining time
I have to say I liked the episode. Maybe because I envisioned half of it going down that way in the end. Like the set up for a return as in their stories are just at the mid point. Good luck finding successors to Martin to take it farther and new actors to fill the roles. Can't wait for the books now.I thought the final was pretty decent. Where they laughed about the suggestion for a democratic solution was pretty clever. The door was left open for a sequel which I'm pretty sure we'll see at some point.
Biggest failing of the show was Bran. They never did a good job explaining that character. Easily the least interesting character of the show - so having him sit on the throne at the end feels really empty. It also doesn't feel like a fitting conclusion to the story's arc.
I don't really buy that the lords of the realm etc would have gone along with choosing Bran.
Also hard for me to believe Drogon wouldn't have turned Jon into a fritter after seeing him standing over Dany's corpse.
This ended up making no sense on so many levels.
First of all, what the hell happened to Dany? She went from sacrificing her own ambitions to the throne by helping to save the North all the way to apparently not caring who she killed in order to achieve power. In like three episodes. her entire character arc this season was so rushed, so nonsensical, that I just couldn't believe it was happening.
Also, so nobody was gonna bring up that Jon is the rightful king? After all the build up on his lineage we get nothing? Him being Aegon was just a lot device to help drive Dany mad? Thats literally the only purpose it served since he didn't get the throne the night king kill.
Also, so many problems with Bran being King. he went from "I can't be Lord of Winterfell" to "I came here to be king" in like three episodes. Then at the small council meeting he peace out in like three minutes. Also, there is no way a cripple non-human psychic is getting elected king. Also, even if he was that is gonna lead to civil war, again, because there is no way the 6 kingdoms are staying together after he allowed the North to leave. Its such a stupid, contrived ending.
I m happy Jon Snow got to join the Wildlings, as Tormund said the real north was in him. But it also kind of resolves nothing. After all the unsullied left and Jon is still the rightful king. So whats stopping anybody from just saying "LOL, Jon is pardoned and now king." It would have made more sense if it had been his decision. IE "I can't be king, I killed my queen. I go into exile."
In the end if there was one lesson, its that the most dangerous thing a ruler can posses is absolute certainty. That was really Dany's downfall. She was able and willing to do horrible things because she believed, without a doubt, that what she was doing was right. The ends justified the means. It was her decision, and no one elses. The scene with her and Jon juxtaposed that nicely, where he says "How do you know (what is good/right)" and she answered basically because it was her right to decide. Thats was the moment where Jon realized she was too far gone. So he made his own decision and ended her, but even after that he asks "How do I know I did the right thing, it doesn't feel right." Dany's sense f certainty corrupted her, and thats why Tyrion said Kings should no longer be born but made. It is the sense of certainty that come with a hereditary title that leads to corruption. Its why Jon was always a better option to rule, he had never had that complex.
This ended up making no sense on so many levels.
Once, they got ahead of the books it stopped making sense. People are more upset that they did not get "their ending" and we see this is all kinds of stuff today and even in politics.
I liked the ending because it needed to be put down at that point. I am glad it is over. Go team Stark! It is clear they rode this horse, until it died. I am really fearful for the Star Wars that David Benioff and D.B. Weiss will ruin it because it is painfully clear that if they do not have source material to work they are pretty weak.Star Wars has already been ruined
https://www.cnet.com/news/game-of-thrones-creators-get-next-star-wars-film-and-not-everyones-happy/QuoteThis ended up making no sense on so many levels.
Once, they got ahead of the books it stopped making sense. People are more upset that they did not get "their ending" and we see this is all kinds of stuff today and even in politics.
I thought this episode was one of the better ones of season eight, but that does not mean I think season eight was good. They wrapped up a bunch of stuff in the finale.
I really thought Arya would be the one killing Dany because of that whole bit with 3 sets of different colored eyes.
Like Roy said lots of parts scratching my head. That whole scene deciding who should be king just seemed awkward. Tyrion made it at least a little more enjoyable to watch.
I really thought Arya would be the one killing Dany because of that whole bit with 3 sets of different colored eyes.
I have to disagree with people that say Jon's parentage meant nothing after all. To me the story telling was about identity. When Jon sent ghost north and his dragon south, and the dragon ended up dying, it mirrored his loss of identify with his Targaryen side and an eventual re-connect with his Stark half. More importantly, he was raised to believe he was a bastahd, and struggled his whole life with his identity. Finding out his heritage gave closure (who his mother was, why his father had been so quiet about jon's monther, etc), but didn't change who he had already become as a person, nor who he wanted to be moving forward. He had already established that, and a name won't change that. It only gave him potential added responsibility, which we know he never wanted.
That said, they could have done a better job with the writing of what that identity meant to others in the kingdom, and given Jon a chance to show he is as a person.
While last night wasn't the worst of this season, it was still pretty bad in my opinion. I think they only episode I would consider good from this season was episode two, and most of what that episode built up wasn't falled through on.you nailed it
Anyway, some issues from last night:
1. Jon's decision itself seemed odd. Up until right before he stabs Dany, he was arguing that he owed her her loyalty. His portrayal wasn't necessarily as conflicted, it was "I don't like it, but she's the queen". In the span of minutes, he decides to commit regicide. It just fits with the theme of characters having sudden changes of heart this season.
2. Same thing with Dany. She's mad, remember? Paranoid, blood-thirsty. She just gave a speech getting her army fired up for more war. And, at this point, she's got two potential enemies: the Starks, and Jon, her rival to the throne. So what's she do? She meets with Jon without any guards, and starts making out with him after he just expresses his horror at the dead kids she burnt to death. Dany had been suspicious of Jon previously, and since then, her two closest advisors betrayed her. But all of Dany's paranoia goes away because... the plot needed it to?
3. All of the build up about Jon's true identity don't matter at all. In the end, Dany trusted him despite being a rival. Afterward, nobody acknowledges -- or even brings up -- his rightful claim to the throne. Nobody proposes him as the potential king. Nobody labels Dany an usurper, and tries to make the case that Jon was justified. And, he doesn't get to decide his own fate (even if it's a fate he was probably okay with).
4. The politics of it all are silly. The North declares itself independent. Nobody even raises an argument. Sansa has committed treason / open rebellion, and it's all good. Meanwhile, Yara Greyjoy -- an ally of Dany's -- happily remains quiet, despite the Iron Islands also having a fierce independent streak? She's just good with the plan? That entire scene was weird, being used partially as comic relief (I think?) And Greyworm threatens the use of his army if justice isn't done. That justice is Tyrion and Jon both living, and Jon's brother becoming King while Tyrion becomes hand? Huh?
5. Bran goes from weirdo who can't speak in non-cryptic sentences to a fairly normal guy in a wheelchair? And he all of a sudden is cool with the 3-eyed Raven leading human affairs? As a maker of history, rather than an observer? And all the other Lords are okay with this, without even thinking about it? The guy has no resume at all, other than being the last male Stark. Every time he could have helped, he was completely useless. In one of the final scenes, he suggests that he may be able to warg into the missing dragon. Really? That may have been a helpful skill in the Battle of Winterfell, or in preventing the genocide of King's Landing. But nope.
In the end, eight years of the show ended up essentially meaningless. Most shows do, but GOT was grander than that for a long time.
I will say, I think it was pretty clear what the ultimate significance of Jon's heritage was -- it was a major factor in Dany becoming unhinged and desperate, deciding that she needed to solidify her rule with "fear" instead of "love," because she knew that the people would side with Jon if given the chance.
That in turn served as a major motivator for Jon to do what he did. Both Tyrion and Arya urged him to do what was necessary because neither he nor his family would ever be safe so long as Dany perceived them as threats to her rule.
I will say, I think it was pretty clear what the ultimate significance of Jon's heritage was -- it was a major factor in Dany becoming unhinged and desperate, deciding that she needed to solidify her rule with "fear" instead of "love," because she knew that the people would side with Jon if given the chance.
That in turn served as a major motivator for Jon to do what he did. Both Tyrion and Arya urged him to do what was necessary because neither he nor his family would ever be safe so long as Dany perceived them as threats to her rule.
THe thing is ... if Jon ever takes a wilding wife (assuming returning from the dead doesnt make you celibate), the realm is doomed in 100 years when Bran dies of old age and one of Jons heirs ventures East to go tame some dragons (assuming Drogon is gonna lay some eggs) and claim his birthright. Welcome to Game of Thrones 2.
Honestly, Jons Targaryen-blood son/grandson going off to find Drogon (I think dragons live for centuries) would make a fun film.
I also expect in the next 5-10 years for them to make an Arya spinoff movie.
In 55 AC, the construction of the Sun Chaser was completed and Lady Alys began her journey.[1] She stopped at Pentos to take on supplies, and next traveled to Tyrosh, where Lady Alys hired crossbowmen and sellswords as a defense for her travels through the pirate-infested Stepstones. Alys made it through the Stepstones unharmed, dismissed the men she had hired on Lys, and set sail for Oldtown.[2] There, she arrived during the last days of autumn.[2]
Alys desired to sail beyond "the sunset", to find lands between the far eastern shores of Essos and Ulthos that no one had found before. However, men willing to sail on such a mission were not easily found. With her gold, however, Alys was able to tempt men by paying higher wages than other captains did.[2]
When word about Lady Alys reached the Hightower, Lord Donnel Hightower's grandsons, Eustace and Norman, were sent to question her and arrest her if need be. However, instead of carrying out their orders, the two men joined Alys's cause, pledging her their own ships, Lady Meredith and Autumn Moon. Afterwards, many sailors wished to join the crew of Lady Alys.[2]
Lady Alys departed Oldtown on the Sun Chaser on the twenty-third day of the third moon of 56 AC. Although Lord Donnel Hightower, on the orders of King Jaehaerys I Targaryen, sent men after Lady Alys to capture her, the ships were unable to keep up with her and gave up one by one.[2]
The Sun Chaser made her way down Whispering Sound. Alys was intend on sailing a southerly course, seeking warm blue waters and steady winds to bring her across the Sunset Sea.[2] Once beyond the Arbor, Alys steered the Sun Chaser south by southwest. After twelve days without incident, the Sun Chaser and her companions were as far south as the Summer Islands, and farther west than any ship had been before, according to the calculations the men on the ship.[3]
However, they had not seen a bird for four days, and soon after the winds disappeared. There was no breeze for almost a fortnight, and when the wind did finally return, the sky turned red as blood. Before morning the first storm began, followed by two more, each worse than the one that had gone before. Sun Chaser was separated from the other two ships by the storm, being driven westward, where the crew had spotted three small islands. Once the storm was past, Sun Chaser returned to fetch the Lady Meredith (Autumn Moon had gone down in the storm) and set sail again to the islands, which the crews named Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya. The two ships remained for more than a fortnight as the crew made repairs and replenished their stores.[3]
When the two ships departed the islands, they parted ways. Alys Westhill sailed the Sun Chaser westward, and was never seen again as far as history knows. When Ser Corlys Velaryon sailed to Asshai-by-the-Shadow on the second of his nine great voyages, he spotted an old and much weathered ship which he believed was Sun Chaser.[3]
I will say, I think it was pretty clear what the ultimate significance of Jon's heritage was -- it was a major factor in Dany becoming unhinged and desperate, deciding that she needed to solidify her rule with "fear" instead of "love," because she knew that the people would side with Jon if given the chance.
That in turn served as a major motivator for Jon to do what he did. Both Tyrion and Arya urged him to do what was necessary because neither he nor his family would ever be safe so long as Dany perceived them as threats to her rule.
THe thing is ... if Jon ever takes a wilding wife (assuming returning from the dead doesnt make you celibate), the realm is doomed in 100 years when Bran dies of old age and one of Jons heirs ventures East to go tame some dragons (assuming Drogon is gonna lay some eggs) and claim his birthright. Welcome to Game of Thrones 2.
I will say, I think it was pretty clear what the ultimate significance of Jon's heritage was -- it was a major factor in Dany becoming unhinged and desperate, deciding that she needed to solidify her rule with "fear" instead of "love," because she knew that the people would side with Jon if given the chance.
That in turn served as a major motivator for Jon to do what he did. Both Tyrion and Arya urged him to do what was necessary because neither he nor his family would ever be safe so long as Dany perceived them as threats to her rule.
THe thing is ... if Jon ever takes a wilding wife (assuming returning from the dead doesnt make you celibate), the realm is doomed in 100 years when Bran dies of old age and one of Jons heirs ventures East to go tame some dragons (assuming Drogon is gonna lay some eggs) and claim his birthright. Welcome to Game of Thrones 2.
I'm pretty fond of the idea that to most of Westeros Jon Snow is a Queenslayer Oathbreaker (multiple times!) traitorous basterd who consorts with wildlings and Red Women, is the revenant of a heathen god, and immediately shirked his sentence to run off beyond the Wall. Within a decade it'll be popular belief that he was in league with the army of the dead, or even leading it, and Bran's perceived legitimacy would probably suffer greatly by association.
They'll be pressuring Sansa so hard to fix the Wall and revitalize the Night's Watch just to keep him and his imaginary invasion force of wildlings and demons out.
I will say, I think it was pretty clear what the ultimate significance of Jon's heritage was -- it was a major factor in Dany becoming unhinged and desperate, deciding that she needed to solidify her rule with "fear" instead of "love," because she knew that the people would side with Jon if given the chance.
That in turn served as a major motivator for Jon to do what he did. Both Tyrion and Arya urged him to do what was necessary because neither he nor his family would ever be safe so long as Dany perceived them as threats to her rule.
THe thing is ... if Jon ever takes a wilding wife (assuming returning from the dead doesnt make you celibate), the realm is doomed in 100 years when Bran dies of old age and one of Jons heirs ventures East to go tame some dragons (assuming Drogon is gonna lay some eggs) and claim his birthright. Welcome to Game of Thrones 2.
I'm pretty fond of the idea that to most of Westeros Jon Snow is a Queenslayer Oathbreaker (multiple times!) traitorous basterd who consorts with wildlings and Red Women, is the revenant of a heathen god, and immediately shirked his sentence to run off beyond the Wall. Within a decade it'll be popular belief that he was in league with the army of the dead, or even leading it, and Bran's perceived legitimacy would probably suffer greatly by association.
They'll be pressuring Sansa so hard to fix the Wall and revitalize the Night's Watch just to keep him and his imaginary invasion force of wildlings and demons out.
Jon is Mance Rayder 2.0.
I'm pretty fond of the idea that to most of Westeros Jon Snow is a Queenslayer Oathbreaker (multiple times!) traitorous basterd who consorts with wildlings and Red Women, is the revenant of a heathen god, and immediately shirked his sentence to run off beyond the Wall.
I actually dont agree with this. Season 6 was one of the best in my opinion and that was all non-source material.
I dont think Dan and Daves ending is gonna be that different from my ending, Martin told 60 Minutes last month. He explained that, years ago, he walked the pair through his plan for how the books will end. (However, Benioff and Weiss have made changes to Martins source material, so some of what weve seen may not be book spoilers at all.)
One small consolation to fans whove been waiting for years, however, is that a decent chunk of The Winds of Winter has actually already been released. Martin has posted the full text of seven chapters, and read another four aloud at various events.
And indeed, Benioff and Weiss have confirmed that certain twists in recent seasons of the show like Shireen Baratheons death by burning and Hodors origin story came directly from Martin. Jon Snows resurrection, his true parentage, and his love affair with Daenerys are likely in this category too, as is the pairs ultimate fate.
QuoteI'm pretty fond of the idea that to most of Westeros Jon Snow is a Queenslayer Oathbreaker (multiple times!) traitorous basterd who consorts with wildlings and Red Women, is the revenant of a heathen god, and immediately shirked his sentence to run off beyond the Wall.
He also galvanized the resistance to the Night King and the dead, so I doubt any one forgets that one.
hated Jamie and Cersei being found dead by Tyrion. would have been better if Cersei survived, said/did something about how Tyrion should be the one that died instead of Jamie and then have Tyrion kill Cersei. what they put in the show was pointless.
The spoilers ended up being correct.Dany and Cersei were my two favorite characters. Nice and complex. Jon Snow on the other hand was a simpleton. The female characters in general were more 3 dimensional than the male characters.
I don't really buy that the lords of the realm etc would have gone along with choosing Bran.
Also hard for me to believe Drogon wouldn't have turned Jon into a fritter after seeing him standing over Dany's corpse.
Overall, a perfectly fine ending. How they got there though ... meh.
Anybody who really liked Danaerys as a character probably feels betrayed, and rightly so. They did not do her justice.
The only people that actually know what happened at Winterfell are a bunch of Northmen and Wildlings (mostly dead, the survivors will remember but aren't part of the Seven Kingdoms anymore), some troops from the Vale (mostly dead, will head back to their isolated region), a bunch of Dothraki and Unsullied (mostly dead, survivors left the continent) and a bare handful of Southerners like Tyrion. So most of the masses are gonna hear about it only after it's filtered through the rumor mill a bunch of times, and with every kingdom but maybe Dorne and the church in upheaval rumors and superstition will run wild.
Dany and Cersei were my two favorite characters. Nice and complex. Jon Snow on the other hand was a simpleton. The female characters in general were more 3 dimensional than the male characters.
Dany had everything she wanted.
On some level, I feel for them. Obviously George R R Martin can't even figure out how to get to that end point. But man, they blew it.
For many Game of Throne super fans, last nights series finale felt more like losing a loved one than the end of a television show.
Thats why Bark.com, a UK-based social network that helps match users match with service providers (such as dog walkers), is offering a specialized Game of Thrones counseling service that promises to help bereft fans seek support and get the help they need through this tough time.
Grief-stricken fans have the opportunity to book with their qualified counselors for half- or full-hour sessions starting at Ģ20 (about $25 in US currency). The professionals will help struggling viewers digest their feelings and interpretation of the show, which could range from anger and confusion to sadness and grief.
To anyone whos ever lost a friend or family member, this might seem trivializing grief, but forlorn fans are making their suffering known on social media.
Absolutely devastated Game of Thrones has finished. It were like losing a limb. #TheFinalEpisode, tweets @jackkchall.
Can we start a group therapy for all those who watched game of thrones? adds @Aminmusaad_.
Take heart, dear fans, as this wont be the last dispatch from Westeros: A Song of Ice and Fire author George R.R. Martin. He promises two more books The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring in the fantasy book series.
Martin claims hes been working on the sixth novel for the better part of a decade even though the HBO series departed from the books back in season five. Still, Game of Thrones show-runners D.B. Weiss and David Benioff were allegedly privy to Martins final vision.
The major points of the ending will be things I told them five or six years ago, Martin tells Rolling Stone.
I have a feeling George R R Martin told themFrom what you understand? You haven't read the books? The entire story isn't about Jon. He's never been out of the North in the books and has had nothing to do with the fight for the Iron Throne. Dany's portrayal and story in the books was pretty much the same as the 1st 5 seasons. Your take on Dany is completely off the wall and ignores all the good she did in the East.
"Dany goes mad queen and burns down King's Landing. Jon kills Dany. Jon ends up North of the Wall. Bran ends up King"... and then they proceeded to fill in the blanks horribly.
On some level, I feel for them. Obviously George R R Martin can't even figure out how to get to that end point. But man, they blew it.
Bran: Not fulfilling, because they never found the character interesting. Flat out avoided him for a whole season. Dipped their toes in the 3 Eyed Raven thing, but ultimately skated around it, because the fantasy element of the show always perplexed them. They spent the last couple seasons just having him sit there acting like a weirdo consistently saying how he's "not a man" anymore - only to turn around go "hehe, just kidding guys I always knew I'd be King" - which is doubly upsetting because it means he sat by doing nothing while thousands died because like everyone else he had a boner for the Iron Throne.
Jon: The entire story is about him. He's the core arc of this entire endeavor. I've been saying this all along. He can choose to turn down the Throne in favor of living North of the Wall, but that needs to be communicated by him. Leaving his fate to some randos who weirdly ignore what they know about his heritage was completely illogical. That above all things leaves the biggest empty feeling about this conclusion. It doesn't feel complete.
Dany: I care less about this, because she's always been a mass-murdering nutjob to me, but I get how fans would be upset. From what I understand, in the books she's a bit more of a looneytoon from the beginning... breast feeding her dragons and having weird hallucinations and things like that. So really, my guess is the writers just never fully understood this character, leaned into her savior persona, and then scrambled to reverse course too late.
She did good, by being ruthless and doing things that many wouldn't do. I've had this same discussion with you in this thread earlier this year. Dany was always destined to be the Mad Queen. The show did a terrible job setting it up and pushing her over the top, but she has always had an infinity for making "bad" men pay and if some "good" men get hurt in the process she has never cared. She has taken great pleasure in seeing those "bad" men suffer. She has always been so focused on her one task that it consumes her and drives her crazy.I have a feeling George R R Martin told themFrom what you understand? You haven't read the books? The entire story isn't about Jon. He's never been out of the North in the books and has had nothing to do with the fight for the Iron Throne. Dany's portrayal and story in the books was pretty much the same as the 1st 5 seasons. Your take on Dany is completely off the wall and ignores all the good she did in the East.
"Dany goes mad queen and burns down King's Landing. Jon kills Dany. Jon ends up North of the Wall. Bran ends up King"... and then they proceeded to fill in the blanks horribly.
On some level, I feel for them. Obviously George R R Martin can't even figure out how to get to that end point. But man, they blew it.
Bran: Not fulfilling, because they never found the character interesting. Flat out avoided him for a whole season. Dipped their toes in the 3 Eyed Raven thing, but ultimately skated around it, because the fantasy element of the show always perplexed them. They spent the last couple seasons just having him sit there acting like a weirdo consistently saying how he's "not a man" anymore - only to turn around go "hehe, just kidding guys I always knew I'd be King" - which is doubly upsetting because it means he sat by doing nothing while thousands died because like everyone else he had a boner for the Iron Throne.
Jon: The entire story is about him. He's the core arc of this entire endeavor. I've been saying this all along. He can choose to turn down the Throne in favor of living North of the Wall, but that needs to be communicated by him. Leaving his fate to some randos who weirdly ignore what they know about his heritage was completely illogical. That above all things leaves the biggest empty feeling about this conclusion. It doesn't feel complete.
Dany: I care less about this, because she's always been a mass-murdering nutjob to me, but I get how fans would be upset. From what I understand, in the books she's a bit more of a looneytoon from the beginning... breast feeding her dragons and having weird hallucinations and things like that. So really, my guess is the writers just never fully understood this character, leaned into her savior persona, and then scrambled to reverse course too late.
I haven't read the books so no spoilers here just guesses... but I think Arya is going to become a badass warrior some day. Jaqen, the faceless man from Braavos, was probably my favorite character on the show. He gave Arya an open invitation to come to Braavos, but she decided to find her brother and mother instead. Now that that ship has sailed, I'm going to guess she gets her butt to Braavos for some badass training. During her conversation with the Hound she talked about the faceless man. When she told the Hound that someday she'd stab him through the eye out the back of his head... I believe her.
She did good, by being ruthless and doing things that many wouldn't do. I've had this same discussion with you in this thread earlier this year. Dany was always destined to be the Mad Queen. The show did a terrible job setting it up and pushing her over the top, but she has always had an infinity for making "bad" men pay and if some "good" men get hurt in the process she has never cared. She has taken great pleasure in seeing those "bad" men suffer. She has always been so focused on her one task that it consumes her and drives her crazy.I have a feeling George R R Martin told themFrom what you understand? You haven't read the books? The entire story isn't about Jon. He's never been out of the North in the books and has had nothing to do with the fight for the Iron Throne. Dany's portrayal and story in the books was pretty much the same as the 1st 5 seasons. Your take on Dany is completely off the wall and ignores all the good she did in the East.
"Dany goes mad queen and burns down King's Landing. Jon kills Dany. Jon ends up North of the Wall. Bran ends up King"... and then they proceeded to fill in the blanks horribly.
On some level, I feel for them. Obviously George R R Martin can't even figure out how to get to that end point. But man, they blew it.
Bran: Not fulfilling, because they never found the character interesting. Flat out avoided him for a whole season. Dipped their toes in the 3 Eyed Raven thing, but ultimately skated around it, because the fantasy element of the show always perplexed them. They spent the last couple seasons just having him sit there acting like a weirdo consistently saying how he's "not a man" anymore - only to turn around go "hehe, just kidding guys I always knew I'd be King" - which is doubly upsetting because it means he sat by doing nothing while thousands died because like everyone else he had a boner for the Iron Throne.
Jon: The entire story is about him. He's the core arc of this entire endeavor. I've been saying this all along. He can choose to turn down the Throne in favor of living North of the Wall, but that needs to be communicated by him. Leaving his fate to some randos who weirdly ignore what they know about his heritage was completely illogical. That above all things leaves the biggest empty feeling about this conclusion. It doesn't feel complete.
Dany: I care less about this, because she's always been a mass-murdering nutjob to me, but I get how fans would be upset. From what I understand, in the books she's a bit more of a looneytoon from the beginning... breast feeding her dragons and having weird hallucinations and things like that. So really, my guess is the writers just never fully understood this character, leaned into her savior persona, and then scrambled to reverse course too late.
I've come somewhat to grips with Bran becoming King - because, when you think about it, he really isn't. IMO he is more a figurehead than anything.The King, whatever King, tended to not govern and gave the day to day running of the kingdom to the Hand. It was no different than Tywin Lannister running Westeros as the Hand to the Mad King, or Tyrion for Joffrey or Ned for Robert. Brandon decided to go into another room or more likely, the Wierwood and was going to warg and find Dragon. It wasn't like he was going to jump on a ship and leave Westeros while Tyrion ruled.
The first thing he does as king is to leave on some quest to find Drogon, leaving Tyrion to actually get things done in his absence. Tyrion effectively has the real day-to-day power. He would never have been accepted as King due to his being a dwarf and a Lannister. Bran is probably viewed as more neutral.
Call it a marriage of convenience.
Still can't wrap my head around Grey worm and the Dothraki leaving peacefully after Dany's death. That just makes no sense. Those guys aren't the type to let something like that slide. I think they probably would have sacked the whole seven kingdoms before letting her death go unpunished.
I've come somewhat to grips with Bran becoming King - because, when you think about it, he really isn't. IMO he is more a figurehead than anything.Ding, Ding, Ding!!! No effin way Torgo Nudho OR the Dothraki just sail away after Dany gets
The first thing he does as king is to leave on some quest to find Drogon, leaving Tyrion to actually get things done in his absence. Tyrion effectively has the real day-to-day power. He would never have been accepted as King due to his being a dwarf and a Lannister. Bran is probably viewed as more neutral.
Call it a marriage of convenience.
Still can't wrap my head around Grey worm and the Dothraki leaving peacefully after Dany's death. That just makes no sense. Those guys aren't the type to let something like that slide. I think they probably would have sacked the whole seven kingdoms before letting her death go unpunished.
I also still have no idea why anyone even knew Dany was dead. I mean her body was flown off by Drogon and they didn't show anyone else in the throne room the entire time. Now it is certainly possible someone was there or Jon admitted to killing her, but you have to show something like that. And again if he wasn't going to rule, he should have just hopped on the dragons back and left with him.And you know why they didn't show that part? Because it makes no sense that Grey Worm wouldn't kill Jon on the spot. Cutaways are dumb and dumber's way of avoiding having to do any work.
Ding, Ding, Ding!!! No effin way Torgo Nudho OR the Dothraki just sail away after Dany gets
Still can't wrap my head around Grey worm and the Dothraki leaving peacefully after Dany's death. That just makes no sense. Those guys aren't the type to let something like that slide. I think they probably would have sacked the whole seven kingdoms before letting her death go unpunished.killedmurdered. EVERYONE would have died that day.
The first thing he does as king is to leave on some quest to find Drogon, leaving Tyrion to actually get things done in his absence.
I also still have no idea why anyone even knew Dany was dead. I mean her body was flown off by Drogon and they didn't show anyone else in the throne room the entire time.
Meereen was sacked after they stormed the gates. Caused a lot of damage and harm and deaths. She also tortured and killed everyone who she perceived was involved in the slaving, even those that were fighting against the system. She killed anyone that didn't bend the knee and show her loyalty (the Tarley's are obviously the most obvious example, but are far from the only ones). She had no problem with torture and in fact took great pleasure in it. And frankly just burning people alive is so cruel and inhumane. And don't get me wrong her brother was a bad guy, but she took great pleasure in watching him burn from his crown of gold as far back as season 1. She has demanded undying loyalty from everyone and if you don't provide it she has you killed. That has been her way from the beginning of the series. The drive, the focus, on one task, the belief that she is the one to save humanity from itself and stopping at nothing to achieve that goal. Everything she has done has been so singularly focused that nothing else really mattered to her.She did good, by being ruthless and doing things that many wouldn't do. I've had this same discussion with you in this thread earlier this year. Dany was always destined to be the Mad Queen. The show did a terrible job setting it up and pushing her over the top, but she has always had an infinity for making "bad" men pay and if some "good" men get hurt in the process she has never cared. She has taken great pleasure in seeing those "bad" men suffer. She has always been so focused on her one task that it consumes her and drives her crazy.I have a feeling George R R Martin told themFrom what you understand? You haven't read the books? The entire story isn't about Jon. He's never been out of the North in the books and has had nothing to do with the fight for the Iron Throne. Dany's portrayal and story in the books was pretty much the same as the 1st 5 seasons. Your take on Dany is completely off the wall and ignores all the good she did in the East.
"Dany goes mad queen and burns down King's Landing. Jon kills Dany. Jon ends up North of the Wall. Bran ends up King"... and then they proceeded to fill in the blanks horribly.
On some level, I feel for them. Obviously George R R Martin can't even figure out how to get to that end point. But man, they blew it.
Bran: Not fulfilling, because they never found the character interesting. Flat out avoided him for a whole season. Dipped their toes in the 3 Eyed Raven thing, but ultimately skated around it, because the fantasy element of the show always perplexed them. They spent the last couple seasons just having him sit there acting like a weirdo consistently saying how he's "not a man" anymore - only to turn around go "hehe, just kidding guys I always knew I'd be King" - which is doubly upsetting because it means he sat by doing nothing while thousands died because like everyone else he had a boner for the Iron Throne.
Jon: The entire story is about him. He's the core arc of this entire endeavor. I've been saying this all along. He can choose to turn down the Throne in favor of living North of the Wall, but that needs to be communicated by him. Leaving his fate to some randos who weirdly ignore what they know about his heritage was completely illogical. That above all things leaves the biggest empty feeling about this conclusion. It doesn't feel complete.
Dany: I care less about this, because she's always been a mass-murdering nutjob to me, but I get how fans would be upset. From what I understand, in the books she's a bit more of a looneytoon from the beginning... breast feeding her dragons and having weird hallucinations and things like that. So really, my guess is the writers just never fully understood this character, leaned into her savior persona, and then scrambled to reverse course too late.
What examples can you give that she never cared if good people got hurt in the process of punishing bad men? I'm racking my brain to remember any incident where she displayed such cruel indifference to the innocent. Not until she burned KL.
One thing I saw somebody mention on Twitter today, but that hasn't come up in all the reaction articles to the finale --i thought the wiki said the previous one was like 110 and he was plugged into a tree
Doesn't the Three Eyed Raven live for like, thousands of years?
So is Bran going to be king for ages and ages?
One thing I saw somebody mention on Twitter today, but that hasn't come up in all the reaction articles to the finale --i thought the wiki said the previous one was like 110 and he was plugged into a tree
Doesn't the Three Eyed Raven live for like, thousands of years?
So is Bran going to be king for ages and ages?
Bran calls out to his future father in desperation to his shock, Ned seems to hear him, but dismisses it and continues into the Tower. The Three-Eyed Raven pulls Bran out of the vision, and reprimands him again for trying to interact with the past. The Three-Eyed Raven says he's waited a thousand years for Bran, as the weirwood roots have grown into him. He assures Bran that he [Bran] is not destined to share his fate, but warns that he must learn before he leaves. When Bran demands to know what it is he needs to learn, the Three-Eyed Raven declares, "everything".[11]
I've come somewhat to grips with Bran becoming King - because, when you think about it, he really isn't. IMO he is more a figurehead than anything.The King, whatever King, tended to not govern and gave the day to day running of the kingdom to the Hand. It was no different than Tywin Lannister running Westeros as the Hand to the Mad King, or Tyrion for Joffrey or Ned for Robert. Brandon decided to go into another room or more likely, the Wierwood and was going to warg and find Dragon. It wasn't like he was going to jump on a ship and leave Westeros while Tyrion ruled.
The first thing he does as king is to leave on some quest to find Drogon, leaving Tyrion to actually get things done in his absence. Tyrion effectively has the real day-to-day power. He would never have been accepted as King due to his being a dwarf and a Lannister. Bran is probably viewed as more neutral.
Call it a marriage of convenience.
Still can't wrap my head around Grey worm and the Dothraki leaving peacefully after Dany's death. That just makes no sense. Those guys aren't the type to let something like that slide. I think they probably would have sacked the whole seven kingdoms before letting her death go unpunished.
Agreed. I would love to see the Celtics either draft and stash a Euro,
The prophecy: In the House of the Undying in season 2, Dany has a vision of walking through the Red Keeps throne room. The ceiling is broken open. Fans assumed the white particles falling into the room was snow and that winter had come to the south. In Sundays episode, Dany is finally taking Kings Landing and buildings are indeed being destroyed. But its not snowing. Its raining ash from her dragons destruction. The season 2 scene is a vision of Daenerys taking Kings Landing only by becoming the queen of the ashes. In the same season she also literally declares, When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who have wronged me. We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground!
The Mass Crucifixion: On the road to Meereen in season 4, Dany finds 163 slave children crucified. She decides to crucify 163 masters in retaliation without regard for their individual guilt or innocence. Ser Barristan advises her to be more merciful. Later, a son of one of the crucified men insists his father was actually a good man who lobbied against slavery and didnt deserve his fate.
Revenge for Ser Barristan. Also in season 4, after Ser Barristan was killed by the terror group Sons of the Harpy. In response, Dany brings three masters to her dragonpit. All swear they have nothing to do with the rogue group. She burns one of them alive to send a message to the others. Was the man guilty? Innocent? We dont know and Dany didnt seem to mind not knowing.
]The Mass Burning: In season 6 in Vaes Dothrak, as punishment for taking her prisoner and refusing her demands, Dany burns all the khals alive and has the remaining Dothraki promise echoing Khal Drogo in season 1 that theyll kill my enemies in their iron suits and tear down their stone houses.
Meereen Revenge Plan: Also in season 6, Dany returns to Meereen and finds the city under attack from the slave cities. This is her first instinct: I will crucify the masters. I will set their fleets afire. I will kill every last one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dirt. Thats my plan. Tyrion talks her out of it.
Burning the Tarleys: In season 7, Dany is given the choice of killing or imprisoning Lord Tarly and his son Dickon after a battle and decides to execute both against the advice of Tyrion.
Kings Landing Battle Plan: In season 8, Dany is repeatedly urged to not attack Kings Landing to overthrow Cersei. She never seems to be entirely against the idea, but rather agrees with her advisors that its rather poor public relations strategy.
The show has pretty consistently shown that when Daenerys is angered she can rather quickly leap to kill them all as the best solution regardless of whether its entirely justified or not
In Game of Thrones season 2, Daenery's handmaiden Doreah a naïve, stupid girl betrayed her with Xaro Xan Daxos a wealthy man who seduced her with riches and a life of comfort away from the indentured servitude she faced working for Dany. In punishment for this offense, Dany locked her and Xaro inside his vault to die a slow death from starvation and probably madness if they didnt murder-suicide themselves first. It made for great television and its doubtful anyone mourned either of those characters for long, but five seasons later Cersei did nearly the exact same thing with Ellaria and her daughter - and it was bone-chilling.
Daenerys offers one of her dragons in exchange for 8,000 Unsullied and the boys still in training (about 5,000). The offer is accepted
Daenerys meets with the Good Masters in a large plaza holding the entire force of Unsullied. She delivers Drogon and is given a scourge that symbolizes ownership of the Unsullied. Now their master, she orders them to kill all the Good Masters, soldiers, and slave overseers, spare the children, and free any slaves they find. After the sacking of the city is complete, she grants them their freedom and asks if they will fight for her as free men. After a few moments, they unanimously acclaim Daenerys as their leader and join her on her march.
Really? I don't even think the Dorthraki were shown again after Dany's speech. And wait, you mean to tell me she still had THAT many Dorthraki + Unsullied left even after the Battle at Winterfell + Kings Landing??
Grey Worm and the Unsullied executed some of the army who already surrendered at Kings Landing, but they allow for Tyrion and Jon to have a trial? Lol.
But IMO he recognizes Tyrion should be King, and has given him most of those powers because others would not.
As many have already said by now, this made ZERO sense to me.
(https://i.redd.it/mpuk8wo8yfz21.png)
The Three-Eyed Raven waited for that long. That doesn't mean that it was the same body the whole time. I posted about the danger the three-eyed Raven could represent with all its capabilities and the ability to transfer to a different host when the current body is at its end.One thing I saw somebody mention on Twitter today, but that hasn't come up in all the reaction articles to the finale --i thought the wiki said the previous one was like 110 and he was plugged into a tree
Doesn't the Three Eyed Raven live for like, thousands of years?
So is Bran going to be king for ages and ages?QuoteBran calls out to his future father in desperation to his shock, Ned seems to hear him, but dismisses it and continues into the Tower. The Three-Eyed Raven pulls Bran out of the vision, and reprimands him again for trying to interact with the past. The Three-Eyed Raven says he's waited a thousand years for Bran, as the weirwood roots have grown into him. He assures Bran that he [Bran] is not destined to share his fate, but warns that he must learn before he leaves. When Bran demands to know what it is he needs to learn, the Three-Eyed Raven declares, "everything".[11]
Yeah that is a much better breakdown then I had, but Dany has often not cared who died if it was for the "right" reason.QuoteAgreed. I would love to see the Celtics either draft and stash a Euro,
Here ya goQuoteThe prophecy: In the House of the Undying in season 2, Dany has a vision of walking through the Red Keeps throne room. The ceiling is broken open. Fans assumed the white particles falling into the room was snow and that winter had come to the south. In Sundays episode, Dany is finally taking Kings Landing and buildings are indeed being destroyed. But its not snowing. Its raining ash from her dragons destruction. The season 2 scene is a vision of Daenerys taking Kings Landing only by becoming the queen of the ashes. In the same season she also literally declares, When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who have wronged me. We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground!
The Mass Crucifixion: On the road to Meereen in season 4, Dany finds 163 slave children crucified. She decides to crucify 163 masters in retaliation without regard for their individual guilt or innocence. Ser Barristan advises her to be more merciful. Later, a son of one of the crucified men insists his father was actually a good man who lobbied against slavery and didnt deserve his fate.
Revenge for Ser Barristan. Also in season 4, after Ser Barristan was killed by the terror group Sons of the Harpy. In response, Dany brings three masters to her dragonpit. All swear they have nothing to do with the rogue group. She burns one of them alive to send a message to the others. Was the man guilty? Innocent? We dont know and Dany didnt seem to mind not knowing.
]The Mass Burning: In season 6 in Vaes Dothrak, as punishment for taking her prisoner and refusing her demands, Dany burns all the khals alive and has the remaining Dothraki promise echoing Khal Drogo in season 1 that theyll kill my enemies in their iron suits and tear down their stone houses.
Meereen Revenge Plan: Also in season 6, Dany returns to Meereen and finds the city under attack from the slave cities. This is her first instinct: I will crucify the masters. I will set their fleets afire. I will kill every last one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dirt. Thats my plan. Tyrion talks her out of it.
Burning the Tarleys: In season 7, Dany is given the choice of killing or imprisoning Lord Tarly and his son Dickon after a battle and decides to execute both against the advice of Tyrion.
Kings Landing Battle Plan: In season 8, Dany is repeatedly urged to not attack Kings Landing to overthrow Cersei. She never seems to be entirely against the idea, but rather agrees with her advisors that its rather poor public relations strategy.
The show has pretty consistently shown that when Daenerys is angered she can rather quickly leap to kill them all as the best solution regardless of whether its entirely justified or not
https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/13/game-of-thrones-daenerys-mad-queen/QuoteIn Game of Thrones season 2, Daenery's handmaiden Doreah a naïve, stupid girl betrayed her with Xaro Xan Daxos a wealthy man who seduced her with riches and a life of comfort away from the indentured servitude she faced working for Dany. In punishment for this offense, Dany locked her and Xaro inside his vault to die a slow death from starvation and probably madness if they didnt murder-suicide themselves first. It made for great television and its doubtful anyone mourned either of those characters for long, but five seasons later Cersei did nearly the exact same thing with Ellaria and her daughter - and it was bone-chilling.
https://screenrant.com/game-thrones-daenerys-mad-queen-clues/QuoteDaenerys offers one of her dragons in exchange for 8,000 Unsullied and the boys still in training (about 5,000). The offer is accepted
Daenerys meets with the Good Masters in a large plaza holding the entire force of Unsullied. She delivers Drogon and is given a scourge that symbolizes ownership of the Unsullied. Now their master, she orders them to kill all the Good Masters, soldiers, and slave overseers, spare the children, and free any slaves they find. After the sacking of the city is complete, she grants them their freedom and asks if they will fight for her as free men. After a few moments, they unanimously acclaim Daenerys as their leader and join her on her march.
Broke her agreement, did not free them out of goodwill but rather to get an army.
https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Unsullied
So plenty of hints about the mad queen if you were looking at the plot and not her looks. JKQuoteReally? I don't even think the Dorthraki were shown again after Dany's speech. And wait, you mean to tell me she still had THAT many Dorthraki + Unsullied left even after the Battle at Winterfell + Kings Landing??
Grey Worm and the Unsullied executed some of the army who already surrendered at Kings Landing, but they allow for Tyrion and Jon to have a trial? Lol.
A lot of the plot did not make sense after the Battle of Winterfell. She must have had troops left in Stormreach because the Dothraki at Winterfell were destroyed.
A lot of the Unsullied stuff never made sense, their armor was vinyl supposed to look like leather. Even their helms are made of this crap. I know it was costs. But this would not make them very arrow proof compared to Alexander the Great's troops in linothorax and metal helms. They also show no resilience against the robed dagger wielding Sons of the Harpy. Yet were very tough in Westeros, and pikes often could win handily against Cavalry whist Sword and Bucklers armed men could evade their pikes and close the range and cut them to pieces. Huge pot holes, after Martin was past up.
Mongols could kill knights with their bows, but on the show, the Dothraki have none. The reality was the men in iron would own them in a fight. Romans beat the savagery of the Germans, Brits and Gauls more often than not due to discipline, tenacity and their equipment. It would be no different here. Their Arakh's sword are variation of a real life sword called a Khopesh. They died out relatively quickly around 1300 BC in history, because there were better options.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khopesh
The Show runners were pretty ignorant of History and Warfare in general. Why did they fly the dragons right at the Ballista for instance rather than trying to flank them and destroy from angles where the defenders would have been defenseless or better yet attack the ships at night by surprise and burn a bunch of them before a solid target was presented?
As for the trial, think they would have demanded Death regardless for Tyrion and Jon. I was hoping Grey Worm would die, too as I never cared for the Unsullied for the above reasons.QuoteBut IMO he recognizes Tyrion should be King, and has given him most of those powers because others would not.
I agree Tyrion was picked by Bran to rule in his stead but let's think about your comment. Tyrion was wrong time and time again in this show. For all his alleged smarts, he had to rely on Jon to bail him out and betrayed a friend, in Varys who was right.
There would have been fewer books and no HBO series if the books were predominantly focused on Jon. Like I said I think the Jon Snow character is pretty bland, two dimensional and really didn't experience much growth. The interesting part of his story was characters around him and the environment.QuoteDany and Cersei were my two favorite characters. Nice and complex. Jon Snow on the other hand was a simpleton. The female characters in general were more 3 dimensional than the male characters.
When I read the books and watch the show, I found the opposite to be true. I thought the story would have been better with the cutting of all stuff not related to Jon Snow and it would have been a better book. I wanted more on the wall and the Wildings as I thought this was way more action packed. I have read fantasy and sword and sorcery for many years. Martin is known as a father of a type of fantasy known as Grimdark which is fantasy deviod of idealism. But those of us that read the books seemed less surprised than those that did not.QuoteDany had everything she wanted.
Also, a lesser claim to the throne, at the end of the day she was her brother's sister and her father's daughter.
Hard disagree on that. I think Jon's chapters are the best part about ADWD. I enjoyed watching him learn to "play the game" of politics as the Lord Commander. Seeing him try to balance the needs of multiple groups of people (Wildlings, Stannis, the North, and the Night's Watch) was more thrilling than anything that was happening with the other POVs.There would have been fewer books and no HBO series if the books were predominantly focused on Jon. Like I said I think the Jon Snow character is pretty bland, two dimensional and really didn't experience much growth. The interesting part of his story was characters around him and the environment.QuoteDany and Cersei were my two favorite characters. Nice and complex. Jon Snow on the other hand was a simpleton. The female characters in general were more 3 dimensional than the male characters.
When I read the books and watch the show, I found the opposite to be true. I thought the story would have been better with the cutting of all stuff not related to Jon Snow and it would have been a better book. I wanted more on the wall and the Wildings as I thought this was way more action packed. I have read fantasy and sword and sorcery for many years. Martin is known as a father of a type of fantasy known as Grimdark which is fantasy deviod of idealism. But those of us that read the books seemed less surprised than those that did not.QuoteDany had everything she wanted.
Also, a lesser claim to the throne, at the end of the day she was her brother's sister and her father's daughter.
Don't see where the claim to the throne means much. Its been about who has the power to take and hold the throne.
Mareen wasn't sacked. Dany had the slaves freed in the night and they rose up and overthrew the masters. Dany did crucify one master for every slave the masters crucified but she didn't kill all the masters and she didn't take all their belongings. She certainly burned some people alive but who did she torture. In the books and in the show up to episode 5, the brutal actions she took were explainable. Destroying Kings Landing after she's won made absolutely no sense from her perspective.Meereen was sacked after they stormed the gates. Caused a lot of damage and harm and deaths. She also tortured and killed everyone who she perceived was involved in the slaving, even those that were fighting against the system. She killed anyone that didn't bend the knee and show her loyalty (the Tarley's are obviously the most obvious example, but are far from the only ones). She had no problem with torture and in fact took great pleasure in it. And frankly just burning people alive is so cruel and inhumane. And don't get me wrong her brother was a bad guy, but she took great pleasure in watching him burn from his crown of gold as far back as season 1. She has demanded undying loyalty from everyone and if you don't provide it she has you killed. That has been her way from the beginning of the series. The drive, the focus, on one task, the belief that she is the one to save humanity from itself and stopping at nothing to achieve that goal. Everything she has done has been so singularly focused that nothing else really mattered to her.She did good, by being ruthless and doing things that many wouldn't do. I've had this same discussion with you in this thread earlier this year. Dany was always destined to be the Mad Queen. The show did a terrible job setting it up and pushing her over the top, but she has always had an infinity for making "bad" men pay and if some "good" men get hurt in the process she has never cared. She has taken great pleasure in seeing those "bad" men suffer. She has always been so focused on her one task that it consumes her and drives her crazy.I have a feeling George R R Martin told themFrom what you understand? You haven't read the books? The entire story isn't about Jon. He's never been out of the North in the books and has had nothing to do with the fight for the Iron Throne. Dany's portrayal and story in the books was pretty much the same as the 1st 5 seasons. Your take on Dany is completely off the wall and ignores all the good she did in the East.
"Dany goes mad queen and burns down King's Landing. Jon kills Dany. Jon ends up North of the Wall. Bran ends up King"... and then they proceeded to fill in the blanks horribly.
On some level, I feel for them. Obviously George R R Martin can't even figure out how to get to that end point. But man, they blew it.
Bran: Not fulfilling, because they never found the character interesting. Flat out avoided him for a whole season. Dipped their toes in the 3 Eyed Raven thing, but ultimately skated around it, because the fantasy element of the show always perplexed them. They spent the last couple seasons just having him sit there acting like a weirdo consistently saying how he's "not a man" anymore - only to turn around go "hehe, just kidding guys I always knew I'd be King" - which is doubly upsetting because it means he sat by doing nothing while thousands died because like everyone else he had a boner for the Iron Throne.
Jon: The entire story is about him. He's the core arc of this entire endeavor. I've been saying this all along. He can choose to turn down the Throne in favor of living North of the Wall, but that needs to be communicated by him. Leaving his fate to some randos who weirdly ignore what they know about his heritage was completely illogical. That above all things leaves the biggest empty feeling about this conclusion. It doesn't feel complete.
Dany: I care less about this, because she's always been a mass-murdering nutjob to me, but I get how fans would be upset. From what I understand, in the books she's a bit more of a looneytoon from the beginning... breast feeding her dragons and having weird hallucinations and things like that. So really, my guess is the writers just never fully understood this character, leaned into her savior persona, and then scrambled to reverse course too late.
What examples can you give that she never cared if good people got hurt in the process of punishing bad men? I'm racking my brain to remember any incident where she displayed such cruel indifference to the innocent. Not until she burned KL.
The Three-Eyed Raven waited for that long. That doesn't mean that it was the same body the whole time. I posted about the danger the three-eyed Raven could represent with all its capabilities and the ability to transfer to a different host when the current body is at its end.One thing I saw somebody mention on Twitter today, but that hasn't come up in all the reaction articles to the finale --i thought the wiki said the previous one was like 110 and he was plugged into a tree
Doesn't the Three Eyed Raven live for like, thousands of years?
So is Bran going to be king for ages and ages?QuoteBran calls out to his future father in desperation to his shock, Ned seems to hear him, but dismisses it and continues into the Tower. The Three-Eyed Raven pulls Bran out of the vision, and reprimands him again for trying to interact with the past. The Three-Eyed Raven says he's waited a thousand years for Bran, as the weirwood roots have grown into him. He assures Bran that he [Bran] is not destined to share his fate, but warns that he must learn before he leaves. When Bran demands to know what it is he needs to learn, the Three-Eyed Raven declares, "everything".[11]
Meereen was sacked.Mareen wasn't sacked. Dany had the slaves freed in the night and they rose up and overthrew the masters. Dany did crucify one master for every slave the masters crucified but she didn't kill all the masters and she didn't take all their belongings. She certainly burned some people alive but who did she torture. In the books and in the show up to episode 5, the brutal actions she took were explainable. Destroying Kings Landing after she's won made absolutely no sense from her perspective.Meereen was sacked after they stormed the gates. Caused a lot of damage and harm and deaths. She also tortured and killed everyone who she perceived was involved in the slaving, even those that were fighting against the system. She killed anyone that didn't bend the knee and show her loyalty (the Tarley's are obviously the most obvious example, but are far from the only ones). She had no problem with torture and in fact took great pleasure in it. And frankly just burning people alive is so cruel and inhumane. And don't get me wrong her brother was a bad guy, but she took great pleasure in watching him burn from his crown of gold as far back as season 1. She has demanded undying loyalty from everyone and if you don't provide it she has you killed. That has been her way from the beginning of the series. The drive, the focus, on one task, the belief that she is the one to save humanity from itself and stopping at nothing to achieve that goal. Everything she has done has been so singularly focused that nothing else really mattered to her.She did good, by being ruthless and doing things that many wouldn't do. I've had this same discussion with you in this thread earlier this year. Dany was always destined to be the Mad Queen. The show did a terrible job setting it up and pushing her over the top, but she has always had an infinity for making "bad" men pay and if some "good" men get hurt in the process she has never cared. She has taken great pleasure in seeing those "bad" men suffer. She has always been so focused on her one task that it consumes her and drives her crazy.I have a feeling George R R Martin told themFrom what you understand? You haven't read the books? The entire story isn't about Jon. He's never been out of the North in the books and has had nothing to do with the fight for the Iron Throne. Dany's portrayal and story in the books was pretty much the same as the 1st 5 seasons. Your take on Dany is completely off the wall and ignores all the good she did in the East.
"Dany goes mad queen and burns down King's Landing. Jon kills Dany. Jon ends up North of the Wall. Bran ends up King"... and then they proceeded to fill in the blanks horribly.
On some level, I feel for them. Obviously George R R Martin can't even figure out how to get to that end point. But man, they blew it.
Bran: Not fulfilling, because they never found the character interesting. Flat out avoided him for a whole season. Dipped their toes in the 3 Eyed Raven thing, but ultimately skated around it, because the fantasy element of the show always perplexed them. They spent the last couple seasons just having him sit there acting like a weirdo consistently saying how he's "not a man" anymore - only to turn around go "hehe, just kidding guys I always knew I'd be King" - which is doubly upsetting because it means he sat by doing nothing while thousands died because like everyone else he had a boner for the Iron Throne.
Jon: The entire story is about him. He's the core arc of this entire endeavor. I've been saying this all along. He can choose to turn down the Throne in favor of living North of the Wall, but that needs to be communicated by him. Leaving his fate to some randos who weirdly ignore what they know about his heritage was completely illogical. That above all things leaves the biggest empty feeling about this conclusion. It doesn't feel complete.
Dany: I care less about this, because she's always been a mass-murdering nutjob to me, but I get how fans would be upset. From what I understand, in the books she's a bit more of a looneytoon from the beginning... breast feeding her dragons and having weird hallucinations and things like that. So really, my guess is the writers just never fully understood this character, leaned into her savior persona, and then scrambled to reverse course too late.
What examples can you give that she never cared if good people got hurt in the process of punishing bad men? I'm racking my brain to remember any incident where she displayed such cruel indifference to the innocent. Not until she burned KL.
Dany was not singular focused on the Iron Throne. The slaver's bay storyline other than getting the Unsullied was a distraction and a negative impact to her quest for the Iron Throne. The Masters would have given her all the ships she needed and even more resources to take the Iron Throne if she went away and left everything as is. Going North to support Jon was also a diversion from the Iron Throne and it cost her plenty. If she hadn't gone North and gotten one of her dragons killed its not clear how the Night King would have gotten the undead past the wall. It certainly wouldn't have been as easy.
There would have been fewer books and no HBO series if the books were predominantly focused on Jon. Like I said I think the Jon Snow character is pretty bland, two dimensional and really didn't experience much growth. The interesting part of his story was characters around him and the environment.
Yeah that is a much better breakdown then I had, but Dany has often not cared who died if it was for the "right" reason.
Meereen was sacked after they stormed the gates. Caused a lot of damage and harm and deaths. She also tortured and killed everyone who she perceived was involved in the slaving, even those that were fighting against the system. She killed anyone that didn't bend the knee and show her loyalty (the Tarley's are obviously the most obvious example, but are far from the only ones). She had no problem with torture and in fact took great pleasure in it. And frankly just burning people alive is so cruel and inhumane. And don't get me wrong her brother was a bad guy, but she took great pleasure in watching him burn from his crown of gold as far back as season 1. She has demanded undying loyalty from everyone and if you don't provide it she has you killed. That has been her way from the beginning of the series. The drive, the focus, on one task, the belief that she is the one to save humanity from itself and stopping at nothing to achieve that goal. Everything she has done has been so singularly focused that nothing else really mattered to her.She did good, by being ruthless and doing things that many wouldn't do. I've had this same discussion with you in this thread earlier this year. Dany was always destined to be the Mad Queen. The show did a terrible job setting it up and pushing her over the top, but she has always had an infinity for making "bad" men pay and if some "good" men get hurt in the process she has never cared. She has taken great pleasure in seeing those "bad" men suffer. She has always been so focused on her one task that it consumes her and drives her crazy.I have a feeling George R R Martin told themFrom what you understand? You haven't read the books? The entire story isn't about Jon. He's never been out of the North in the books and has had nothing to do with the fight for the Iron Throne. Dany's portrayal and story in the books was pretty much the same as the 1st 5 seasons. Your take on Dany is completely off the wall and ignores all the good she did in the East.
"Dany goes mad queen and burns down King's Landing. Jon kills Dany. Jon ends up North of the Wall. Bran ends up King"... and then they proceeded to fill in the blanks horribly.
On some level, I feel for them. Obviously George R R Martin can't even figure out how to get to that end point. But man, they blew it.
Bran: Not fulfilling, because they never found the character interesting. Flat out avoided him for a whole season. Dipped their toes in the 3 Eyed Raven thing, but ultimately skated around it, because the fantasy element of the show always perplexed them. They spent the last couple seasons just having him sit there acting like a weirdo consistently saying how he's "not a man" anymore - only to turn around go "hehe, just kidding guys I always knew I'd be King" - which is doubly upsetting because it means he sat by doing nothing while thousands died because like everyone else he had a boner for the Iron Throne.
Jon: The entire story is about him. He's the core arc of this entire endeavor. I've been saying this all along. He can choose to turn down the Throne in favor of living North of the Wall, but that needs to be communicated by him. Leaving his fate to some randos who weirdly ignore what they know about his heritage was completely illogical. That above all things leaves the biggest empty feeling about this conclusion. It doesn't feel complete.
Dany: I care less about this, because she's always been a mass-murdering nutjob to me, but I get how fans would be upset. From what I understand, in the books she's a bit more of a looneytoon from the beginning... breast feeding her dragons and having weird hallucinations and things like that. So really, my guess is the writers just never fully understood this character, leaned into her savior persona, and then scrambled to reverse course too late.
What examples can you give that she never cared if good people got hurt in the process of punishing bad men? I'm racking my brain to remember any incident where she displayed such cruel indifference to the innocent. Not until she burned KL.
The 163 crucified were Masters who benefited greatly from enslaving people. Even if some of them objected to the crucifying of the slaves, they certainly weren't good men. What was she going to do put all the masters on trial? She could have just left the masters fate up to their slaves and she wouldn't have had a problem with the masters anymore. Instead she takes a harsh middle ground, crucifying one master for every slave that was crucified. Putting the masters and slaves on equal footing.QuoteAgreed. I would love to see the Celtics either draft and stash a Euro,
Here ya goQuoteThe prophecy: In the House of the Undying in season 2, Dany has a vision of walking through the Red Keeps throne room. The ceiling is broken open. Fans assumed the white particles falling into the room was snow and that winter had come to the south. In Sundays episode, Dany is finally taking Kings Landing and buildings are indeed being destroyed. But its not snowing. Its raining ash from her dragons destruction. The season 2 scene is a vision of Daenerys taking Kings Landing only by becoming the queen of the ashes. In the same season she also literally declares, When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who have wronged me. We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground!
The Mass Crucifixion: On the road to Meereen in season 4, Dany finds 163 slave children crucified. She decides to crucify 163 masters in retaliation without regard for their individual guilt or innocence. Ser Barristan advises her to be more merciful. Later, a son of one of the crucified men insists his father was actually a good man who lobbied against slavery and didnt deserve his fate.
Revenge for Ser Barristan. Also in season 4, after Ser Barristan was killed by the terror group Sons of the Harpy. In response, Dany brings three masters to her dragonpit. All swear they have nothing to do with the rogue group. She burns one of them alive to send a message to the others. Was the man guilty? Innocent? We dont know and Dany didnt seem to mind not knowing.
]The Mass Burning: In season 6 in Vaes Dothrak, as punishment for taking her prisoner and refusing her demands, Dany burns all the khals alive and has the remaining Dothraki promise echoing Khal Drogo in season 1 that theyll kill my enemies in their iron suits and tear down their stone houses.
Meereen Revenge Plan: Also in season 6, Dany returns to Meereen and finds the city under attack from the slave cities. This is her first instinct: I will crucify the masters. I will set their fleets afire. I will kill every last one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dirt. Thats my plan. Tyrion talks her out of it.
Burning the Tarleys: In season 7, Dany is given the choice of killing or imprisoning Lord Tarly and his son Dickon after a battle and decides to execute both against the advice of Tyrion.
Kings Landing Battle Plan: In season 8, Dany is repeatedly urged to not attack Kings Landing to overthrow Cersei. She never seems to be entirely against the idea, but rather agrees with her advisors that its rather poor public relations strategy.
The show has pretty consistently shown that when Daenerys is angered she can rather quickly leap to kill them all as the best solution regardless of whether its entirely justified or not
https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/13/game-of-thrones-daenerys-mad-queen/QuoteIn Game of Thrones season 2, Daenery's handmaiden Doreah a naïve, stupid girl betrayed her with Xaro Xan Daxos a wealthy man who seduced her with riches and a life of comfort away from the indentured servitude she faced working for Dany. In punishment for this offense, Dany locked her and Xaro inside his vault to die a slow death from starvation and probably madness if they didnt murder-suicide themselves first. It made for great television and its doubtful anyone mourned either of those characters for long, but five seasons later Cersei did nearly the exact same thing with Ellaria and her daughter - and it was bone-chilling.
https://screenrant.com/game-thrones-daenerys-mad-queen-clues/QuoteDaenerys offers one of her dragons in exchange for 8,000 Unsullied and the boys still in training (about 5,000). The offer is accepted
Daenerys meets with the Good Masters in a large plaza holding the entire force of Unsullied. She delivers Drogon and is given a scourge that symbolizes ownership of the Unsullied. Now their master, she orders them to kill all the Good Masters, soldiers, and slave overseers, spare the children, and free any slaves they find. After the sacking of the city is complete, she grants them their freedom and asks if they will fight for her as free men. After a few moments, they unanimously acclaim Daenerys as their leader and join her on her march.
Broke her agreement, did not free them out of goodwill but rather to get an army.
https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Unsullied
So plenty of hints about the mad queen if you were looking at the plot and not her looks. JK
I'm pretty sure "false" Aegon isn't actually false in that he actually is the son of Rhaegar and Ellia. In fact yesterday or today, Martin called him Aegon the 6th when talking about the books lending credence to that fact. It could turn out to not be that way, but I'm not sure it really matters since it is pretty darn obvious that Jon is the prince who was promised whether Aegon is his half brother or an imposter I don't think matters all that much.QuoteThere would have been fewer books and no HBO series if the books were predominantly focused on Jon. Like I said I think the Jon Snow character is pretty bland, two dimensional and really didn't experience much growth. The interesting part of his story was characters around him and the environment.
Your opinion, but the Jon parts of the books were the best. He also fit the archetype of the hero the best. He is also the Song of Fire and Ice and fulfilled the prophecy to become Azor Ahai and the Prince that was promised when he killed Dany. I guess uniting the forces of man against the dead was pretty boring for you.
Less books would not have been bad, as book five meandered and lost momentum. I found the Dany plots and false Aegon to be far more boring and easy to spot as obvious red herrings.
The 163 crucified were Masters who benefited greatly from enslaving people. Even if some of them objected to the crucifying of the slaves, they certainly weren't good men. What was she going to do put all the masters on trial? She could have just left the masters fate up to their slaves and she wouldn't have had a problem with the masters anymore. Instead she takes a harsh middle ground, crucifying one master for every slave that was crucified. Putting the masters and slaves on equal footing.
Dany had tried to work with the masters after that but they supported the Sons of Anarchy and killed more of her men than just Ser Barristan. Burning one master was harsh but he was most certainly not an innocent having gotten wealthy off of slaves.
The Khals weren't innocents. They had most certainly committed much brutality to rise to the level of Khal. The Khals had taken Dany prisoner and were deciding her fate. I believe were up to raping her and letting their horses rape her too when she called them on being not fit to rule and demanded they follow her. When they obviously wouldn't, she killed them which was perfectly justified.
Burning the Tarleys was brutal but it is explainable and Lord Tarley was far from an innocent. He had also broken his oath to the Tyrells when he didn't follow them in supporting them in supporting Dany. He could have chosen to be neutral but he actually fought against the Tyrells and destroyed their house. Even so, Dany gave him the chance to support her and his son also had the option to support her. As for taking them prisoner what was she going to do with all their men? Show me the prisoner of war camps in GOT.
Doreah wasn't stupid and naive. She wasn't dupped and she wasn't an innocent. She was conniving and betrayed Dany who had treated Doreah well. The betrayal led several Dothraki being killed including Dany's other handmaiden and her dragons stolen. If Dany hadn't been able to defeat the Warlocks, she would have been imprisoned for life in the House of the Undying. I also had no issue with what Cersei did to Ellaria and her daughter. Neither of them were innocent. Whereas Ellaria killed Myrcella who most certainly was one of the few innocent characters in the show.
At least you didn't mention, Dany's brother's death. Who was one of the most vile characters and justly deserved his death.
I don't see anyone on here claiming Dany was good. She's certainly did a lot of brutal things but until Episode 5 Kings Landing her actions were explainable and justifiable from her perspective and they were also balanced by her good actions. They also weren't that brutal compared to some of the other brutality going on. She wouldn't have rated high on the villain scale and her brutal actions most certainly weren't madness.
You Dany apologists need to stop defending that mass-murdering evil psychopath. THe only one worse than Dany is Bran for letting that LadyHitler commit her genocides without warning anyone.he cant see the future and plenty of people were around her to see what she was capable of. Tyrion, for example
You Dany apologists need to stop defending that mass-murdering evil psychopath. THe only one worse than Dany is Bran for letting that LadyHitler commit her genocides without warning anyone.
You Dany apologists need to stop defending that mass-murdering evil psychopath. THe only one worse than Dany is Bran for letting that LadyHitler commit her genocides without warning anyone.
The show pretty much had Tyrion spell out Dany's story for the viewers. She started off with good intentions but due to a deep sense of entitlement and anger took more and more of an ends justify the means approach as her power grew. By Kings' Landing the ends and the entitlement had become one and the same - she had what she started off wanting but still craved more power for the sake of having more power, and could justify any atrocity as serving that "greater good".
But looking back, even her original good intentions were based on her rage against being powerless. Even her empathy was based in projecting the powerful denying her what was rightfully hers onto larger and larger groups of the powerless.
All in all, one of the more realistic villains in pop culture, even if the back half was much too rushed.
Please. It is a show. Did you not read? I said her Episode 5 Kings Landing action wasn't justifiable or explainable from her perspective. There was nothing mad about it. It was evil and made no sense from her character's perspective. Her prior brutal actions weren't directed against innocents as you and others are trying to portray. Maybe Martin will do a better job of setting it up in the rest of the books.QuoteThe 163 crucified were Masters who benefited greatly from enslaving people. Even if some of them objected to the crucifying of the slaves, they certainly weren't good men. What was she going to do put all the masters on trial? She could have just left the masters fate up to their slaves and she wouldn't have had a problem with the masters anymore. Instead she takes a harsh middle ground, crucifying one master for every slave that was crucified. Putting the masters and slaves on equal footing.
Dany had tried to work with the masters after that but they supported the Sons of Anarchy and killed more of her men than just Ser Barristan. Burning one master was harsh but he was most certainly not an innocent having gotten wealthy off of slaves.
The Khals weren't innocents. They had most certainly committed much brutality to rise to the level of Khal. The Khals had taken Dany prisoner and were deciding her fate. I believe were up to raping her and letting their horses rape her too when she called them on being not fit to rule and demanded they follow her. When they obviously wouldn't, she killed them which was perfectly justified.
Burning the Tarleys was brutal but it is explainable and Lord Tarley was far from an innocent. He had also broken his oath to the Tyrells when he didn't follow them in supporting them in supporting Dany. He could have chosen to be neutral but he actually fought against the Tyrells and destroyed their house. Even so, Dany gave him the chance to support her and his son also had the option to support her. As for taking them prisoner what was she going to do with all their men? Show me the prisoner of war camps in GOT.
Doreah wasn't stupid and naive. She wasn't dupped and she wasn't an innocent. She was conniving and betrayed Dany who had treated Doreah well. The betrayal led several Dothraki being killed including Dany's other handmaiden and her dragons stolen. If Dany hadn't been able to defeat the Warlocks, she would have been imprisoned for life in the House of the Undying. I also had no issue with what Cersei did to Ellaria and her daughter. Neither of them were innocent. Whereas Ellaria killed Myrcella who most certainly was one of the few innocent characters in the show.
At least you didn't mention, Dany's brother's death. Who was one of the most vile characters and justly deserved his death.
I don't see anyone on here claiming Dany was good. She's certainly did a lot of brutal things but until Episode 5 Kings Landing her actions were explainable and justifiable from her perspective and they were also balanced by her good actions. They also weren't that brutal compared to some of the other brutality going on. She wouldn't have rated high on the villain scale and her brutal actions most certainly weren't madness.
At the end of the day, she was just as bad as those she claiming she was liberating people from. I will wait for your rebuttal but I don't think there is one for the comment that is based in logic.
You can twist it any way you want but burning King's Landing and people who have surrendered is a merciless act of evil.
The fact that you feel compelled to use the word justify tells all. One justifies things that need rationalized because they do not fit when the norms of societal and you talk yourself into accepting them. She was cruel and routinely killed people who did not submit to her rule or bend the knee. God help you if you feel that way in real life.
You Dany apologists need to stop defending that mass-murdering evil psychopath. THe only one worse than Dany is Bran for letting that LadyHitler commit her genocides without warning anyone.
The show pretty much had Tyrion spell out Dany's story for the viewers. She started off with good intentions but due to a deep sense of entitlement and anger took more and more of an ends justify the means approach as her power grew. By Kings' Landing the ends and the entitlement had become one and the same - she had what she started off wanting but still craved more power for the sake of having more power, and could justify any atrocity as serving that "greater good".
But looking back, even her original good intentions were based on her rage against being powerless. Even her empathy was based in projecting the powerful denying her what was rightfully hers onto larger and larger groups of the powerless.
All in all, one of the more realistic villains in pop culture, even if the back half was much too rushed.
With all due respect, I don't think any of this is accurate. Her good intentions were based off good intentions. Her empathy was based off empathy. She was kind towards those less fortunate because she saw herself in those people. Its okay to admit that she had redeeming qualities, it doesn't mean she should be forgiven for burning a city. But acting like her good acts were actually secretly rooted in evil is not at all how she was portrayed in the show, and not even close to the nuisanced character GGRM projects in the books.
She hasn't secretly been a villain this entire time and everybody just missed it, but even if she was then its would still be terrible writing because about 90% of the audience didn't view her that way at all.
Amen. The anti-Dany folks on here apparently can't understand a complex character which is why I guess they gravitate to Jon Snow.
Amen. The anti-Dany folks on here apparently can't understand a complex character which is why I guess they gravitate to Jon Snow.You Dany apologists need to stop defending that mass-murdering evil psychopath. THe only one worse than Dany is Bran for letting that LadyHitler commit her genocides without warning anyone.
The show pretty much had Tyrion spell out Dany's story for the viewers. She started off with good intentions but due to a deep sense of entitlement and anger took more and more of an ends justify the means approach as her power grew. By Kings' Landing the ends and the entitlement had become one and the same - she had what she started off wanting but still craved more power for the sake of having more power, and could justify any atrocity as serving that "greater good".
But looking back, even her original good intentions were based on her rage against being powerless. Even her empathy was based in projecting the powerful denying her what was rightfully hers onto larger and larger groups of the powerless.
All in all, one of the more realistic villains in pop culture, even if the back half was much too rushed.
With all due respect, I don't think any of this is accurate. Her good intentions were based off good intentions. Her empathy was based off empathy. She was kind towards those less fortunate because she saw herself in those people. Its okay to admit that she had redeeming qualities, it doesn't mean she should be forgiven for burning a city. But acting like her good acts were actually secretly rooted in evil is not at all how she was portrayed in the show, and not even close to the nuisanced character GGRM projects in the books.
She hasn't secretly been a villain this entire time and everybody just missed it, but even if she was then its would still be terrible writing because about 90% of the audience didn't view her that way at all.
That's a lot different take than LarBrd and the other anti-Dany folks on here. Dany certainly had plenty of faults with pride being a big one. She certainly took brutal actions but until episode 5 destruction of Kings Landing they were in character and were not notably brutal compared to others in GOT.You Dany apologists need to stop defending that mass-murdering evil psychopath. THe only one worse than Dany is Bran for letting that LadyHitler commit her genocides without warning anyone.
The show pretty much had Tyrion spell out Dany's story for the viewers. She started off with good intentions but due to a deep sense of entitlement and anger took more and more of an ends justify the means approach as her power grew. By Kings' Landing the ends and the entitlement had become one and the same - she had what she started off wanting but still craved more power for the sake of having more power, and could justify any atrocity as serving that "greater good".
But looking back, even her original good intentions were based on her rage against being powerless. Even her empathy was based in projecting the powerful denying her what was rightfully hers onto larger and larger groups of the powerless.
All in all, one of the more realistic villains in pop culture, even if the back half was much too rushed.
With all due respect, I don't think any of this is accurate. Her good intentions were based off good intentions. Her empathy was based off empathy. She was kind towards those less fortunate because she saw herself in those people. Its okay to admit that she had redeeming qualities, it doesn't mean she should be forgiven for burning a city. But acting like her good acts were actually secretly rooted in evil is not at all how she was portrayed in the show, and not even close to the nuisanced character GGRM projects in the books.
I mean that's exactly what I'm saying. She was symbolically freeing herself, it got muddled up with her thirst for power, and liberation steadily turned into conquest.She hasn't secretly been a villain this entire time and everybody just missed it, but even if she was then its would still be terrible writing because about 90% of the audience didn't view her that way at all.
I don't think she was a villain the whole time, just that the seeds of her eventual villainy were always there, including in what were initially her best qualities. Villain's probably not even a great word for it, though it's where she wound up. Despite the rushed parts it was overall a really strong portrayal of idealistic motives being corrupted by self-interest and power.
That's a lot different take than LarBrd and the other anti-Dany folks on here. Dany certainly had plenty of faults with pride being a big one. She certainly took brutal actions but until episode 5 destruction of Kings Landing they were in character and were not notably brutal compared to others in GOT.
Brutal actions run the gamut and are sometimes necessary. Dropping two atomic bombs on Japan was a horrific act which predominantly affected innocent civilians but it was necessary to end World War 2. The people who ordered it and did it weren't villains.
You keep bringing up things as comparisons that aren't comparable. Breaking the law and being punished for it are not the same thing as not bending the knee to an invading force of barbarians and former slaves commanded by someone with dragons that has a penchant for burning people alive. Remember everywhere Dany went she was the invader. She was the one destroying cities. She wasn't defending her home from invaders like the people she was defeating. It was entirely unreasonable to expect people in that situation to bend the knee.Please. It is a show. Did you not read? I said her Episode 5 Kings Landing action wasn't justifiable or explainable from her perspective. There was nothing mad about it. It was evil and made no sense from her character's perspective. Her prior brutal actions weren't directed against innocents as you and others are trying to portray. Maybe Martin will do a better job of setting it up in the rest of the books.QuoteThe 163 crucified were Masters who benefited greatly from enslaving people. Even if some of them objected to the crucifying of the slaves, they certainly weren't good men. What was she going to do put all the masters on trial? She could have just left the masters fate up to their slaves and she wouldn't have had a problem with the masters anymore. Instead she takes a harsh middle ground, crucifying one master for every slave that was crucified. Putting the masters and slaves on equal footing.
Dany had tried to work with the masters after that but they supported the Sons of Anarchy and killed more of her men than just Ser Barristan. Burning one master was harsh but he was most certainly not an innocent having gotten wealthy off of slaves.
The Khals weren't innocents. They had most certainly committed much brutality to rise to the level of Khal. The Khals had taken Dany prisoner and were deciding her fate. I believe were up to raping her and letting their horses rape her too when she called them on being not fit to rule and demanded they follow her. When they obviously wouldn't, she killed them which was perfectly justified.
Burning the Tarleys was brutal but it is explainable and Lord Tarley was far from an innocent. He had also broken his oath to the Tyrells when he didn't follow them in supporting them in supporting Dany. He could have chosen to be neutral but he actually fought against the Tyrells and destroyed their house. Even so, Dany gave him the chance to support her and his son also had the option to support her. As for taking them prisoner what was she going to do with all their men? Show me the prisoner of war camps in GOT.
Doreah wasn't stupid and naive. She wasn't dupped and she wasn't an innocent. She was conniving and betrayed Dany who had treated Doreah well. The betrayal led several Dothraki being killed including Dany's other handmaiden and her dragons stolen. If Dany hadn't been able to defeat the Warlocks, she would have been imprisoned for life in the House of the Undying. I also had no issue with what Cersei did to Ellaria and her daughter. Neither of them were innocent. Whereas Ellaria killed Myrcella who most certainly was one of the few innocent characters in the show.
At least you didn't mention, Dany's brother's death. Who was one of the most vile characters and justly deserved his death.
I don't see anyone on here claiming Dany was good. She's certainly did a lot of brutal things but until Episode 5 Kings Landing her actions were explainable and justifiable from her perspective and they were also balanced by her good actions. They also weren't that brutal compared to some of the other brutality going on. She wouldn't have rated high on the villain scale and her brutal actions most certainly weren't madness.
At the end of the day, she was just as bad as those she claiming she was liberating people from. I will wait for your rebuttal but I don't think there is one for the comment that is based in logic.
You can twist it any way you want but burning King's Landing and people who have surrendered is a merciless act of evil.
The fact that you feel compelled to use the word justify tells all. One justifies things that need rationalized because they do not fit when the norms of societal and you talk yourself into accepting them. She was cruel and routinely killed people who did not submit to her rule or bend the knee. God help you if you feel that way in real life.
Hate to break it to you but submit and bend the knee or die is the norm for the GOT environment and the norm for most of human history. Ned Stark killing the Night Watch deserter fleeing the White Walkers was a brutal act. Ned Stark would have killed Jorah for selling some poachers to a slaver. Wonder what Ned Stark's justice on the poachers would have been? Death? Loss of a hand? Certainly not prison. Jon Snow killing all of the traitors including Olly, a kid who'd seen his family butchered by Wildlings, was a brutal act. Where's the clamoring for why Jon didn't just lockup Olly?
By the way, I have read the books although it has been several years. I'll point out again that in the books Dany was 13 when she was sold to Khal Drogo. Imagine if the TV show had portrayed her as a 13 year old at the beginning.
You keep bringing up things as comparisons that aren't comparable. Breaking the law and being punished for it are not the same thing as not bending the knee to an invading force of barbarians and former slaves commanded by someone with dragons that has a penchant for burning people alive. Remember everywhere Dany went she was the invader. She was the one destroying cities. She wasn't defending her home from invaders like the people she was defeating. It was entirely unreasonable to expect people in that situation to bend the knee.Please. It is a show. Did you not read? I said her Episode 5 Kings Landing action wasn't justifiable or explainable from her perspective. There was nothing mad about it. It was evil and made no sense from her character's perspective. Her prior brutal actions weren't directed against innocents as you and others are trying to portray. Maybe Martin will do a better job of setting it up in the rest of the books.QuoteThe 163 crucified were Masters who benefited greatly from enslaving people. Even if some of them objected to the crucifying of the slaves, they certainly weren't good men. What was she going to do put all the masters on trial? She could have just left the masters fate up to their slaves and she wouldn't have had a problem with the masters anymore. Instead she takes a harsh middle ground, crucifying one master for every slave that was crucified. Putting the masters and slaves on equal footing.
Dany had tried to work with the masters after that but they supported the Sons of Anarchy and killed more of her men than just Ser Barristan. Burning one master was harsh but he was most certainly not an innocent having gotten wealthy off of slaves.
The Khals weren't innocents. They had most certainly committed much brutality to rise to the level of Khal. The Khals had taken Dany prisoner and were deciding her fate. I believe were up to raping her and letting their horses rape her too when she called them on being not fit to rule and demanded they follow her. When they obviously wouldn't, she killed them which was perfectly justified.
Burning the Tarleys was brutal but it is explainable and Lord Tarley was far from an innocent. He had also broken his oath to the Tyrells when he didn't follow them in supporting them in supporting Dany. He could have chosen to be neutral but he actually fought against the Tyrells and destroyed their house. Even so, Dany gave him the chance to support her and his son also had the option to support her. As for taking them prisoner what was she going to do with all their men? Show me the prisoner of war camps in GOT.
Doreah wasn't stupid and naive. She wasn't dupped and she wasn't an innocent. She was conniving and betrayed Dany who had treated Doreah well. The betrayal led several Dothraki being killed including Dany's other handmaiden and her dragons stolen. If Dany hadn't been able to defeat the Warlocks, she would have been imprisoned for life in the House of the Undying. I also had no issue with what Cersei did to Ellaria and her daughter. Neither of them were innocent. Whereas Ellaria killed Myrcella who most certainly was one of the few innocent characters in the show.
At least you didn't mention, Dany's brother's death. Who was one of the most vile characters and justly deserved his death.
I don't see anyone on here claiming Dany was good. She's certainly did a lot of brutal things but until Episode 5 Kings Landing her actions were explainable and justifiable from her perspective and they were also balanced by her good actions. They also weren't that brutal compared to some of the other brutality going on. She wouldn't have rated high on the villain scale and her brutal actions most certainly weren't madness.
At the end of the day, she was just as bad as those she claiming she was liberating people from. I will wait for your rebuttal but I don't think there is one for the comment that is based in logic.
You can twist it any way you want but burning King's Landing and people who have surrendered is a merciless act of evil.
The fact that you feel compelled to use the word justify tells all. One justifies things that need rationalized because they do not fit when the norms of societal and you talk yourself into accepting them. She was cruel and routinely killed people who did not submit to her rule or bend the knee. God help you if you feel that way in real life.
Hate to break it to you but submit and bend the knee or die is the norm for the GOT environment and the norm for most of human history. Ned Stark killing the Night Watch deserter fleeing the White Walkers was a brutal act. Ned Stark would have killed Jorah for selling some poachers to a slaver. Wonder what Ned Stark's justice on the poachers would have been? Death? Loss of a hand? Certainly not prison. Jon Snow killing all of the traitors including Olly, a kid who'd seen his family butchered by Wildlings, was a brutal act. Where's the clamoring for why Jon didn't just lockup Olly?
By the way, I have read the books although it has been several years. I'll point out again that in the books Dany was 13 when she was sold to Khal Drogo. Imagine if the TV show had portrayed her as a 13 year old at the beginning.
Her being 13 is much of the point though. That is part of the reason she acts the way she does. She was a child. It is the same reason Robb Stark returned from war with a wife. He was a kid. Kids aren't fully developed and do things they shouldn't all of the time. For Dany, being told her whole life that she was special and then for special things to start happening to her, she started to believe that only she knew what was right and anyone that stood in her way was the enemy. It is why she could justify everything she did, consequences be [dang]ed.
The show rushed her decent into madness, but it was always there. The seeds of it were always there. And everything she did was for the purpose of ascending to the throne (by you know invading and destroying her enemies). Even her time in the east was calculated to ascend to the throne. To get the Unsullied she had to destroy the masters, but she knew she could never just stay there with the other cities in slaver's bay because they would never leave her alone. She needed to take them out as well. And she couldn't have just gone to Westeros at that point with just the Unsullied and her still very small dragons. She would have been wiped out easily. By taking out the masters in the other cities, her troops grew, her power grew, and most importantly her dragons grew. To conquer the world, she had to have fully grown dragons. But her leadership all through out the East was questionable. Heck she even abandoned Mereen and left others in charge while she went off with Drogon. Dany was a great conquistador, but a terrible ruler. In large part because she was 13 when special things started happening and she never had a proper upbringing of a typical ruler. She didn't ever really learn about the gray areas. To her everything was black and white. You with her or against her. That is what shaped her world view and that is why she was always destined to end up exactly where she did.
Nah she was literally evil. Broken mentally from day 1. Blame childhood trauma, but ultimately she was ladyhitler under the guise of a savior and Aegon should have stabbed her far earlier. Actually, the realm would have been better off had the Baratheons got a hold of her as a baby. If Bran wasn't such a dingdong, he'd do like his great grandson did in "Avengers Endgame" and use his powers for a timeheist where he goes back in time and ends this crap before it began.That's a lot different take than LarBrd and the other anti-Dany folks on here. Dany certainly had plenty of faults with pride being a big one. She certainly took brutal actions but until episode 5 destruction of Kings Landing they were in character and were not notably brutal compared to others in GOT.You Dany apologists need to stop defending that mass-murdering evil psychopath. THe only one worse than Dany is Bran for letting that LadyHitler commit her genocides without warning anyone.
The show pretty much had Tyrion spell out Dany's story for the viewers. She started off with good intentions but due to a deep sense of entitlement and anger took more and more of an ends justify the means approach as her power grew. By Kings' Landing the ends and the entitlement had become one and the same - she had what she started off wanting but still craved more power for the sake of having more power, and could justify any atrocity as serving that "greater good".
But looking back, even her original good intentions were based on her rage against being powerless. Even her empathy was based in projecting the powerful denying her what was rightfully hers onto larger and larger groups of the powerless.
All in all, one of the more realistic villains in pop culture, even if the back half was much too rushed.
With all due respect, I don't think any of this is accurate. Her good intentions were based off good intentions. Her empathy was based off empathy. She was kind towards those less fortunate because she saw herself in those people. Its okay to admit that she had redeeming qualities, it doesn't mean she should be forgiven for burning a city. But acting like her good acts were actually secretly rooted in evil is not at all how she was portrayed in the show, and not even close to the nuisanced character GGRM projects in the books.
I mean that's exactly what I'm saying. She was symbolically freeing herself, it got muddled up with her thirst for power, and liberation steadily turned into conquest.She hasn't secretly been a villain this entire time and everybody just missed it, but even if she was then its would still be terrible writing because about 90% of the audience didn't view her that way at all.
I don't think she was a villain the whole time, just that the seeds of her eventual villainy were always there, including in what were initially her best qualities. Villain's probably not even a great word for it, though it's where she wound up. Despite the rushed parts it was overall a really strong portrayal of idealistic motives being corrupted by self-interest and power.
Brutal actions run the gamut and are sometimes necessary. Dropping two atomic bombs on Japan was a horrific act which predominantly affected innocent civilians but it was necessary to end World War 2. The people who ordered it and did it weren't villains.