Author Topic: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)  (Read 187284 times)

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Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #210 on: September 13, 2013, 04:50:33 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Here's part of the reason LeBron needs to have legit counterpart.  If he is allowed to just cheat on defense and save energy, he is likely to be that much more likely to succeed on offense, as it leads to many steals and fast break points.

Again, that really wasn't the case against Dallas in 2010.

I guess the trouble I have with a lot of the arguments in the thread is that most of the reasoning has already been proven wrong. 

I think this is a good exercise, because I don't think these are really arguments that I'd make.

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Argument:  Lebron can't lose unless he's got a small forward on him who can both score and play elite defense.

Reality:  Lebron lost in the 2010 Finals, despite playing against Shawn Marion.

For this argument my own points are different in two fundamental ways; 1) there should be an athletic long 3 who can make an effort at defending LeBron (and the weaker the defense from the 3 is, the stronger it needs to be up front), and 2) A larger point, there should be scorers, and there should be shooters, at least 3 3pt shooters in the lineup at all times with at least 4 guys who can hit a shot from 15 ft away from the basket, or more.

Gerald Wallace is not a defender on Marion's level now, let alone 3 years ago, and despite a spectacular 7 game run against Chicago, he's not a reliable shooter. So he's a decent option defensively, and a poor option offensively. Net negative for me.   

Quote
Argument:  Lebron is unbeatable unless the other team clearly trumps him at all other positions.

Reality:  Lebron lost to Dallas despite having Wade and Bosh, and should have lost against San Antonio.  He's won two titles in ten years, and again, one of those titles had to be gifted to him, despite having two other all-stars.

I don't wholly agree with this either, but I do think you need to have a much better overall team, and a very well constructed one, plus at least 2-3 star quality players, and possibly more depending on LeBron's supporting cast.

Quote
Argument:  Lebron radically makes things easier on his teammates, amplifying their shooting percentages.

Reality:  There's very little amplifying effect, if any.  Lebron certainly isn't turning inefficient players into efficient ones.

I think that LeBron does indeed make things easier on his teammates, but he's not a cure-all for poor efficiency by any means. I'm sympathetic to the 'well if anyone can help Monta Ellis its LeBron', but nobody can help Monta Ellis.

Quote
Argument:  There's no such thing as a "wrong" opinion.

Reality:  (Biting my tongue.)

I think any opinion can be valid as long as it acknowledges that mine is correct.

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like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #211 on: September 13, 2013, 04:51:41 PM »

Offline Who

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Is Paul George that good a defender? Surprised to see his name on that list, but then I see he was one of your guys.
I think Paul George is right up there with Iggy, LeBron and TA as the best wing defender in basketball.

Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #212 on: September 13, 2013, 04:52:16 PM »

Offline McHales Pits

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Guys/Girls-

Sorry I haven't been able to post on my behalf - I have been really busy with work in the last couple days.

To win this series, it will be essential that my defense continues to another opposing offenses and spark easy transition baskets. Bradley/Ellis/Chalmers on Lawson is a matchup that is in my favor. Although Lawson is extremely quick, all of those defenders are just as quick and bigger than him.
He is the spark plug to this offense and shutting him down essentially shuts down this offense.

Cleveland has a great defense, but can be exploited when Garnett is off the floor and Horford becomes the center. James would move to PF to matchup against Landry - a huge mismatch. When Allen and Wallace are draped on Lebron, I expect he will use his size mismatch to create position for himself to score. I also expect Battier, Chalmers, and Korver to play big minutes to provide efficient kickout options when Lebron or Ellis need to facilitate.

To the earlier post that laid out scoring for Cleveland - I think it was overstated.

Lawson 14-18
Horford 12-16
Garnett 12-16
Landry 6-12
Crawford 6-12
Wallace 6-10
Allen 6-10

Not enough offense/shooting to overcome Minnesota's defense. Crawford is a terrible playoff performer. Minny has the defense to shut down Cleveland's biggest/only shot creating (and facilitating) option.
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Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #213 on: September 13, 2013, 04:53:00 PM »

Offline Lucky17

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Is Paul George that good a defender? Surprised to see his name on that list, but then I see he was one of your guys.
I think Paul George is right up there with Iggy, LeBron and TA as the best wing defender in basketball.

Is he? I haven't paid much attention to his defense. Better than Leonard?
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Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #214 on: September 13, 2013, 04:57:32 PM »

Offline Who

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Is Paul George that good a defender? Surprised to see his name on that list, but then I see he was one of your guys.
I think Paul George is right up there with Iggy, LeBron and TA as the best wing defender in basketball.

Is he? I haven't paid much attention to his defense. Better than Leonard?

I think so. His length and lateral quickness are exceptional. Plays with a lot of effort and commitment defensively. Can defend multiple positions. A very difficult defensive player to play against.

I don't think Kawhi Leonard is on that level. That level being an All-League defender. I think he will get there in time. In another year or two. But I don't think he is there yet. A notch below those other guys.

Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #215 on: September 13, 2013, 05:02:00 PM »

Offline AB_Celtic

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Lawson 14-18
Horford 12-16
Garnett 12-16
Landry 6-12
Crawford 6-12
Wallace 6-10
Allen 6-10

Those are some pretty modest predictions. I have at least 2ppg more for most of these guys.

Bradley/Ellis/Chalmers on Lawson is a matchup that is in my favor.

And I disagree here. Bradley gets feasted upon by Lawson. Haven't looked up Ellis/Chalmers numbers, but I'm a little wiped after 40+ posts in this thread.

Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #216 on: September 13, 2013, 06:51:07 PM »

Offline Lucky17

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Am I wrong to have more faith in Jamal Crawford scoring 15 a night within the flow of the game (read: not to the detriment of his team's offense) than I do in Monta Ellis?
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Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #217 on: September 13, 2013, 06:51:51 PM »

Offline dark_lord

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Argument:  There's no such thing as a "wrong" opinion.

Reality:  (Biting my tongue.)

continuing to harp on such things will only make people not want to engage in conversation or debate.  i know it has for me.  i voted minny and dont even feel like attempting to justify it. i would only be labeled or potentially made to feel i would be "wrong" in a few people's opinion.


congrats to both teams for making it thus far. i will only observe from here on out until the results are posted.  to all gm's, congrats on making this draft a good one.  with no consensus favorite, it shows the balance in the draft this year....kudos.

Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #218 on: September 13, 2013, 07:00:49 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Argument:  There's no such thing as a "wrong" opinion.

Reality:  (Biting my tongue.)

continuing to harp on such things will only make people not want to engage in conversation or debate.  i know it has for me.  i voted minny and dont even feel like attempting to justify it. i would only be labeled or potentially made to feel i would be "wrong" in a few people's opinion.


congrats to both teams for making it thus far. i will only observe from here on out until the results are posted.  to all gm's, congrats on making this draft a good one.  with no consensus favorite, it shows the balance in the draft this year....kudos.

That wasn't for you, it was meant as a joke where Roy is making fun of his own 'I'm right and you're wrong' persona. Kind of like when he said to KGs knee 'we can't all be right'

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #219 on: September 13, 2013, 07:03:08 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Although Im not saying he doesn't think you're wrong. It's a really meta joke.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #220 on: September 13, 2013, 07:20:41 PM »

Offline Lucky17

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Although Im not saying he doesn't think you're wrong. It's a really meta joke.

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Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #221 on: September 13, 2013, 07:42:31 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Everyone, what Lucky did right there is awesome.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #222 on: September 13, 2013, 07:47:49 PM »

Offline Lucky17

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Everyone, what Lucky did right there is awesome.

Just trying to end the work week strong, man. Give 110%, 110% of the time.
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Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #223 on: September 13, 2013, 09:25:42 PM »

Offline AB_Celtic

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Am I wrong to have more faith in Jamal Crawford scoring 15 a night within the flow of the game (read: not to the detriment of his team's offense) than I do in Monta Ellis?

I don't think you're wrong ;)

Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #224 on: September 13, 2013, 09:57:04 PM »

Offline McHales Pits

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Yeah I've pretty much stopped responding to Roy's posts regarding Monta, my team's scoring issues, and all of the other reasons why he thought I should have lost long ago. He has been the VP of the Anti-Minnesota club - which is cool and completely fine. But yeah - not everyone will agree with him or with me...it's just time to let people form their own opinions and vote and see who comes out on top.
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