Author Topic: Which team says no? (Pelicans trade idea)  (Read 9447 times)

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Re: Which team says no? (Pelicans trade idea)
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2016, 11:08:52 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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RPM seems like a fun stat. 

It shows Jae Crowder as the 23rd best player in the league, Jared Sullinger as the 36th best player in the league, Amir Johnson as the 41st best player in the league... yeah ok....   According to that stat, all those guys are better than Thomas... and Boston apparently has 5 guys in the top 50 (Kelly Olynyk as the 48th best player in the league).... neat.   

It does show Marcus Smart as the 313th best player in the league though... so there's that. 

FYI, last year Jrue Holiday (while playing injured) had a RPM of 3.22 (10th amongst point guard)... Thomas had a RPM of 1.45 (20th).    Holiday was better than him the year before as well.

See, this is the issue with the RPM stat.  It's not the fact that the stat is inaccurate, it's the fact that people do not know how to interpret it.

The RPM stat doesn't show that Crowder is the 23rd best player in the league.  It shows that he has the 23rd greatest positive impact on his team when he is on the court.

It indicates that Boston are +3.85 Points better (relative to their opponent) when Crowder is on the court.  I.e. the Celtics are a better team when Crowder is on the court.

That doesn't mean Crowder is a superstar player - it just means that when he gets on the court he makes a major positive impact.  For anybody who has watched most of the Celtics games this season, I think it's easy to confirm (by the eye test) that this is accurate.  We do play better when Crowder is on the court.

That is also true of Isaiah Thomas, Kelly Olynyk, Amir Johnson.  We almost always play better as a team when those guys are on the court.

The valuable thing about RPM is that it's one of the only statistic that takes into account a players outright impact on a team - not only the parts that are easily measurable (points, rebounds, percentages, etc) but also the intangibles that are hard to measure. 

For example there are some players out there who might not put up a lot of points, grab a lot of rebounds, or score especially efficiently.  But they might be outstanding vocal leaders or great floor generals.  Guys who set amazing screens. Guys who don't have great steal or block numbers, but are great at playing positional team defence.  Guys who are so intimidating in the post that their mere presence scares opponents from attacking the basket.

There are a lot of ways guys can impact a game that can't be captured with basic stats.  Amir Johnson is a perfect example.  His statistics are utterly average and they have been his entire career, but he has been highly renowned his entire career as a guy who impacts games far more than his stats show.  If you watch his games as a Celtic, you can see that. If you look at his RPM stats, they reflect that.

Amir Johnson has only had one block yesterday, and yet Marc Gasol (a guy universally seen as one of the top centers in the NBA) was completely incapable of making a basket while Amir Johnson was defending him.  Watching the game, it was plain to see that he had a huge impact when he was on the court.

You say Boston has 5 players in the top 50, as if that is surprising.  Why would that be surprising at all?  Boston is a team that does not have a single All-Star, and yet has been competing for a playoff spot in the East all season long.  How could they possibly be as competitive as they are, with no star power, unless they had a handful of guys who impact the game more than their stats show?

The RPM stat might be legitimately questionable when used for small sample sizes - like for example, players who only play 10 games in a season, or players who only play 7 MPG. 

But when you're looking at a guys who play significant minutes over the course of a season, it becomes statistically relevant. 

I think guys like Kelly Olynyk and Kevin Garnett are perfect examples of why the RPM stat is valuable. 

Olynyk is a very unselfish player, who is often criticised for not being aggressive enough as a scorer.  While this is a fair criticism, Olynyk is also a player who has incredibly high basketball IQ, has very high work ethic, and is very active in all other aspects of the game.  When Olynyk is on the court, most of the good things that happen seem to be a direct or indirect result of something he has done.  For example he'll pump-fake on the perimeter then drive past his defender, the defense will collapse on him, he'll kick it out to a shooter, who then makes a second pass to another shooter, who hits the open three.  All made possible because of that initial fake-and-drive by Olynyk, but he gets no recognition for it on the box score.  Plays like this happen all the time when Olynyk is on the court, which is why Boston almost always plays much better when he is playing, even if his actual box score statistics are rarely anything to write home about. 

Explains why Olynyk has had a positive RPM this year (+2.11), and last year (+1.71) but not in his rookie year (-1.33) where he was clearly often very lost on the defensive end.

Likewise it explains why a guy like Kevin Garnett can still have an elite DRPM (+4.49) this year, despite the fact that he is clearly a shadow of his former self in terms of his outright box-score production.  KG's individual defence was always just part of the reason for why he had so much impact on that end of the court.  He's always been famously known for his vocal leadership on that end of the court - always telling guys where to be on defence, etc. Again that is something that regular stats will never capture, but a stat like DRPM can.

That, is why I am so in love with the stat.  I like getting insight into a players overall contribution/impact to a team's ability to win games, rather than just seeing the obvious things that are clearly visible on face value.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2016, 11:39:21 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Which team says no? (Pelicans trade idea)
« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2016, 11:28:16 PM »

Offline alldaboston

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Jrue Holiday (10 mil 2 years), Ryan Anderson (8.5 mil expiring), Omer Asik (9.2 mil - 5 years)

For

Lee's expiring (15 mil), Jerebko's expiring (5 mil), Isaiah Thomas (6.9 mil - 3 years) and Jared Sullinger (2.5 mil ... restricted free agent)

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=j5rn32m

Just to throw an intersting look at this (and expand on my previous post) I'm going to quantify this deal based on RPM (i.e. net impact the player has on their team). 

Players coming in:
* Holiday: -0.12
* Anderson: -1.97
* Asik: +0.25

Players going out:
* David Lee: -0.98
* Jonas Jerebko: -1.23
* Isaiah Thomas: +2.84
* Jared Sullinger: +3.05

I'll let you look at that and decide whether you think this trade makes us better, or worse.
Why do you put so much stock into RPM?

Because a players' objectively quantified impact on the team is more important to me than one-dimensional box score numbers

Ok... then you'll be happy to know that Jrue Holiday was significantly better in RPM than Isaiah Thomas last year.  And Jrue Holiday was better than him the year before.  And Jrue was more than likely better in RPM than Thomas the year before, but it looks like ESPN hadn't invented this stupid statistic yet.  Case closed. 

The question is, would taking on Asik's contract be worth the upgrade.

Hence, if you had have presented this idea last season, or the season before, perhaps my point of view would have been different.  But you never said that Holiday was better than Thomas on offense and defense - you said that he is better.
I said that when healthy, Jrue is better than Thomas.  He is.

Don't see the point in focusing on the first 30 games of the season in which Holiday was intentionally limited to 15-25 minutes in order to get his body strong post surgery.

Perhaps it's a bad gamble, because Jrue could get re-injured.  But if we're talking about healthy jrue vs healthy thomas.... healthy jrue is a better basketball player on both ends.

For goodness sake man...I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall here.

If you are so convinced that healthy Jrue Holiday is a better offensive player than healthy Isaiah Thomas, then please justify it.

I think I am being perfectly fair and reasonable here.  I'm not throwing insults at you, I'm giving you an opportunity to back your point of view, and I've already thrown out countless statistics (both advanced and basic) which almost exclusively indicate that Thomas is a far better offensive player.

So far you have:

1) Repeatedly state that Jrue Holiday is better offensively and defensively than Thomas, without any justification at all as to why you believe this.

2) Criticised and attempted to discredit RPM as a stupid stat, despite acknowledging that it actually supports part of your argument (that Holiday is a better defensive player, and had more overall positive impact in 13/14 and 14/15)

3) Use injuries as an excuse for Holiday's poorer RPM stats for this season - which is a fair argument

You still continue to absolutely refuse to give any justification as to why Holiday is a better offensive player than Thomas.  None at all.   

Why??

Is it because you just aren't that convinced, but you feel his defensive advantages make up for it?  If so then fine, just say so.

Is it because you just think he's more fun to watch, but can't quantity it?  Fine, then just say he's a more fun offensive player, and you just prefer his game.

Is it because you think three point shooting is the most important offensive aspect for a PG, and so for that reason along you consider him more valuable than Thomas?  If so fine, say so.

I don't care what your justification is, just give me something.

Personally, I don't think you have anything.  I think you've made the claim that he's a better offensive player based purely on the eye test of you watching him play in past seasons...but now you've looked at all the stats and you've realised hat he's not as good offensively as your remember him being, and just don't want to admit you were wrong.  That's what I think.

But I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, and I'm giving you a chance to show otherwise.  Again, I think I'm being perfectly reasonable here and if you feel so strongly about your conclusion then I'm unsure of why you are so unwilling to strengthen your argument with reasoning / evidence.

I just want to know how you are going to back your claim that a guy who is the 3rd best player
(arguably 4th, depending on how you feel about Eric Gordon) on the 26th best team in the NBA is more valuable than a guy who is the best player on the 15th best team in the NBA.

You sir, are a legend. TP.
I could very well see the Hawks... starting Taurean Prince at the 3, who is already better than Crowder, imo.

you vs. the guy she tells you not to worry about

Re: Which team says no? (Pelicans trade idea)
« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2016, 11:30:07 PM »

Offline max215

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Jrue Holiday (10 mil 2 years), Ryan Anderson (8.5 mil expiring), Omer Asik (9.2 mil - 5 years)

For

Lee's expiring (15 mil), Jerebko's expiring (5 mil), Isaiah Thomas (6.9 mil - 3 years) and Jared Sullinger (2.5 mil ... restricted free agent)

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=j5rn32m

Just to throw an intersting look at this (and expand on my previous post) I'm going to quantify this deal based on RPM (i.e. net impact the player has on their team). 

Players coming in:
* Holiday: -0.12
* Anderson: -1.97
* Asik: +0.25

Players going out:
* David Lee: -0.98
* Jonas Jerebko: -1.23
* Isaiah Thomas: +2.84
* Jared Sullinger: +3.05

I'll let you look at that and decide whether you think this trade makes us better, or worse.
Why do you put so much stock into RPM?

Because a players' objectively quantified impact on the team is more important to me than one-dimensional box score numbers

Ok... then you'll be happy to know that Jrue Holiday was significantly better in RPM than Isaiah Thomas last year.  And Jrue Holiday was better than him the year before.  And Jrue was more than likely better in RPM than Thomas the year before, but it looks like ESPN hadn't invented this stupid statistic yet.  Case closed. 

The question is, would taking on Asik's contract be worth the upgrade.

Hence, if you had have presented this idea last season, or the season before, perhaps my point of view would have been different.  But you never said that Holiday was better than Thomas on offense and defense - you said that he is better.
I said that when healthy, Jrue is better than Thomas.  He is.

Don't see the point in focusing on the first 30 games of the season in which Holiday was intentionally limited to 15-25 minutes in order to get his body strong post surgery.

Perhaps it's a bad gamble, because Jrue could get re-injured.  But if we're talking about healthy jrue vs healthy thomas.... healthy jrue is a better basketball player on both ends.

For goodness sake man...I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall here.

If you are so convinced that healthy Jrue Holiday is a better offensive player than healthy Isaiah Thomas, then please justify it.

I think I am being perfectly fair and reasonable here.  I'm not throwing insults at you, I'm giving you an opportunity to back your point of view, and I've already thrown out countless statistics (both advanced and basic) which almost exclusively indicate that Thomas is a far better offensive player.

So far you have:

1) Repeatedly state that Jrue Holiday is better offensively and defensively than Thomas, without any justification at all as to why you believe this.

2) Criticised and attempted to discredit RPM as a stupid stat, despite acknowledging that it actually supports part of your argument (that Holiday is a better defensive player, and had more overall positive impact in 13/14 and 14/15)

3) Use injuries as an excuse for Holiday's poorer RPM stats for this season - which is a fair argument

You still continue to absolutely refuse to give any justification as to why Holiday is a better offensive player than Thomas.  None at all.   

Why??

Is it because you just aren't that convinced, but you feel his defensive advantages make up for it?  If so then fine, just say so.

Is it because you just think he's more fun to watch, but can't quantity it?  Fine, then just say he's a more fun offensive player, and you just prefer his game.

Is it because you think three point shooting is the most important offensive aspect for a PG, and so for that reason along you consider him more valuable than Thomas?  If so fine, say so.

I don't care what your justification is, just give me something.

Personally, I don't think you have anything.  I think you've made the claim that he's a better offensive player based purely on the eye test of you watching him play in past seasons...but now you've looked at all the stats and you've realised hat he's not as good offensively as your remember him being, and just don't want to admit you were wrong.  That's what I think.

But I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, and I'm giving you a chance to show otherwise.  Again, I think I'm being perfectly reasonable here and if you feel so strongly about your conclusion then I'm unsure of why you are so unwilling to strengthen your argument with reasoning / evidence.

I just want to know how you are going to back your claim that a guy who is the 3rd best player
(arguably 4th, depending on how you feel about Eric Gordon) on the 26th best team in the NBA is more valuable than a guy who is the best player on the 15th best team in the NBA.

You sir, are a legend. TP.

Another from me. Crimson definitely writes the best-researched and well thought out posts on the board.
Isaiah, you were lightning in a bottle.

DKC Clippers

Re: Which team says no? (Pelicans trade idea)
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2016, 11:36:42 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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RPM seems like a fun stat. 

It shows Jae Crowder as the 23rd best player in the league, Jared Sullinger as the 36th best player in the league, Amir Johnson as the 41st best player in the league... yeah ok....   According to that stat, all those guys are better than Thomas... and Boston apparently has 5 guys in the top 50 (Kelly Olynyk as the 48th best player in the league).... neat.   

It does show Marcus Smart as the 313th best player in the league though... so there's that. 

FYI, last year Jrue Holiday (while playing injured) had a RPM of 3.22 (10th amongst point guard)... Thomas had a RPM of 1.45 (20th).    Holiday was better than him the year before as well.

See, this is the issue with the RPM stat.  It's not the fact that the stat is inaccurate, it's the fact that people do not know how to interpret it.

The RPM stat doesn't show that Crowder is the 23rd best player in the league.  It shows that he has the 23rd greatest positive impact on his team when he is on the court.

It indicates that Boston are +3.85 Points better (relative to their opponent) when Crowder is on the court.  I.e. the Celtics are a better team when Crowder is on the court.

That doesn't mean Crowder is a superstar player - it just means that when he gets on the court he makes a major positive impact.  For anybody who has watched most of the Celtics games this season, I think it's easy to confirm (by the eye test) that this is accurate.  We do play better when Crowder is on the court.

That is also true of Isaiah Thomas, Kelly Olynyk, Amir Johnson.  We almost always play better as a team when those guys are on the court.

The valuable thing about RPM is that it's one of the only statistic that takes into account a players outright impact on a team - not only the parts that are easily measurable (points, rebounds, percentages, etc) but also the intangibles that are hard to measure. 

For example there are some players out there who might not put up a lot of points, grab a lot of rebounds, or score especially efficiently.  But they might be outstanding vocal leaders or great floor generals.  Guys who set amazing screens. Guys who don't have great steal or block numbers, but are great at playing positional team defence.  Guys who are so intimidating in the post that their mere presence scares opponents from attacking the basket.

There are a lot of ways guys can impact a game that can't be captured with basic stats.  Amir Johnson is a perfect example.  His statistics are utterly average and they have been his entire career, but he has been highly renowned his entire career as a guy who impacts games far more than his stats show.  If you watch his games as a Celtic, you can see that. If you look at his RPM stats, they reflect that.

Amir Johnson has only had one block yesterday, and yet Marc Gasol (a guy universally seen as one of the top centers in the NBA) was completely incapable of making a basket while Amir Johnson was defending him.  Watching the game, it was plain to see that he had a huge impact when he was on the court.

You say Boston has 5 players in the top 50, as if that is surprising.  Why would that be surprising at all?  Boston is a team that does not have a single All-Star, and yet has been competing for a playoff spot in the East all season long.  How could they possibly be as competitive as they are, with no star power, unless they had a handful of guys who impact the game more than their stats show?

The RPM stat might be legitimately questionable when used for small sample sizes - like for example, players who only play 10 games in a season, or players who only play 7 MPG. 

But when you're looking at a guys who play significant minutes over the course of a season, it becomes statistically relevant.
Problem with any +/- stat is that it doesn't take into account lineups and replacement players.  Whoever shares the court with LeBron James is going to have a better +/- than the guy coming off the bench with Richard Jefferson.   

I really don't need to look at +/- stats to know that Jrue HOliday (when healthy) is a better shooter and better defender than Isaiah Thomas.   If you don't like the trade idea, it's cool.  I was bored and wondered which team would say no.  Obvious this forum is bias towards Celtic players so it doesn't surprise me that they'd hate a trade that effectively has us giving up a backup point guard (Thomas) and a backup big who isn't likely to be here next year (Sully)... for a quality PG who can start long term when healthy (Jrue), a player a lot of people think would be a great fit as a starting PF in Brad's system (Ryan Anderson), and an albatross contract. 

There's better fake trades to fantasize about.   Getting into this with you would be similar to the years I spent trying to convince this forum why Rondo's role was inflating his stats and why a player like Steph Curry would flourish if given the same opportunity.  I don't have the energy for it in such an insignificant thread.   If you want to believe Thomas is better than a healthy Jrue Holiday, that's fine.   Whatever. 

Re: Which team says no? (Pelicans trade idea)
« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2016, 11:40:37 PM »

Offline max215

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RPM seems like a fun stat. 

It shows Jae Crowder as the 23rd best player in the league, Jared Sullinger as the 36th best player in the league, Amir Johnson as the 41st best player in the league... yeah ok....   According to that stat, all those guys are better than Thomas... and Boston apparently has 5 guys in the top 50 (Kelly Olynyk as the 48th best player in the league).... neat.   

It does show Marcus Smart as the 313th best player in the league though... so there's that. 

FYI, last year Jrue Holiday (while playing injured) had a RPM of 3.22 (10th amongst point guard)... Thomas had a RPM of 1.45 (20th).    Holiday was better than him the year before as well.

See, this is the issue with the RPM stat.  It's not the fact that the stat is inaccurate, it's the fact that people do not know how to interpret it.

The RPM stat doesn't show that Crowder is the 23rd best player in the league.  It shows that he has the 23rd greatest positive impact on his team when he is on the court.

It indicates that Boston are +3.85 Points better (relative to their opponent) when Crowder is on the court.  I.e. the Celtics are a better team when Crowder is on the court.

That doesn't mean Crowder is a superstar player - it just means that when he gets on the court he makes a major positive impact.  For anybody who has watched most of the Celtics games this season, I think it's easy to confirm (by the eye test) that this is accurate.  We do play better when Crowder is on the court.

That is also true of Isaiah Thomas, Kelly Olynyk, Amir Johnson.  We almost always play better as a team when those guys are on the court.

The valuable thing about RPM is that it's one of the only statistic that takes into account a players outright impact on a team - not only the parts that are easily measurable (points, rebounds, percentages, etc) but also the intangibles that are hard to measure. 

For example there are some players out there who might not put up a lot of points, grab a lot of rebounds, or score especially efficiently.  But they might be outstanding vocal leaders or great floor generals.  Guys who set amazing screens. Guys who don't have great steal or block numbers, but are great at playing positional team defence.  Guys who are so intimidating in the post that their mere presence scares opponents from attacking the basket.

There are a lot of ways guys can impact a game that can't be captured with basic stats.  Amir Johnson is a perfect example.  His statistics are utterly average and they have been his entire career, but he has been highly renowned his entire career as a guy who impacts games far more than his stats show.  If you watch his games as a Celtic, you can see that. If you look at his RPM stats, they reflect that.

Amir Johnson has only had one block yesterday, and yet Marc Gasol (a guy universally seen as one of the top centers in the NBA) was completely incapable of making a basket while Amir Johnson was defending him.  Watching the game, it was plain to see that he had a huge impact when he was on the court.

You say Boston has 5 players in the top 50, as if that is surprising.  Why would that be surprising at all?  Boston is a team that does not have a single All-Star, and yet has been competing for a playoff spot in the East all season long.  How could they possibly be as competitive as they are, with no star power, unless they had a handful of guys who impact the game more than their stats show?

The RPM stat might be legitimately questionable when used for small sample sizes - like for example, players who only play 10 games in a season, or players who only play 7 MPG. 

But when you're looking at a guys who play significant minutes over the course of a season, it becomes statistically relevant.
Problem with any +/- stat is that it doesn't take into account lineups and replacement players.  Whoever shares the court with LeBron James is going to have a better +/- than the guy coming off the bench with Richard Jefferson.   

I really don't need to look at +/- stats to know that Jrue HOliday (when healthy) is a better shooter and better defender than Isaiah Thomas.   If you don't like the trade idea, it's cool.  I was bored and wondered which team would say no.  Obvious this forum is bias towards Celtic players so it doesn't surprise me that they'd hate a trade that effectively has us giving up a backup point guard (Thomas) and a backup big who isn't likely to be here next year (Sully)... for a quality PG who can start long term when healthy (Jrue), a player a lot of people think would be a great fit as a starting PF in Brad's system (Ryan Anderson), and an albatross contract. 

There's better fake trades to fantasize about.   Getting into this with you would be similar to the years I spent trying to convince this forum why Rondo's role was inflating his stats and why a player like Steph Curry would flourish if given the same opportunity.  I don't have the energy for it in such an insignificant thread.   If you want to believe Thomas is better than a healthy Jrue Holiday, that's fine.   Whatever.

Dude, that is EXACTLY what RPM does account for.
Isaiah, you were lightning in a bottle.

DKC Clippers

Re: Which team says no? (Pelicans trade idea)
« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2016, 11:43:13 PM »

Offline Eja117

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I'd say no. Thomas is more important than any of those guys.
No he isn't.  Holiday is better.
No he isn't. Thomas is better

Re: Which team says no? (Pelicans trade idea)
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2016, 11:47:16 PM »

Offline colincb

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Jrue Holiday (10 mil 2 years), Ryan Anderson (8.5 mil expiring), Omer Asik (9.2 mil - 5 years)

For

Lee's expiring (15 mil), Jerebko's expiring (5 mil), Isaiah Thomas (6.9 mil - 3 years) and Jared Sullinger (2.5 mil ... restricted free agent)

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=j5rn32m

Why do the Cs always get screwed in your dealings on their behalf?

Sullinger, Jerebko, and 2nds should net you Anderson who is expiring. Then you're giving us a negative asset in Asik for $47 million more on his contract after this year vs an expiring in Lee. That's a LarBrd33 bargain for the Cs.

Trading IT for Holiday is another grab your ankles gift from you. IT's has clearly better stats than Holiday and a better contract situation too. Below is the link to the stats comparison from Basketball-reference.com for the forum to decide the accuracy of your claims regarding their relative merits and I'll leave you to say the stats are meaningless to save some face.

http://bkref.com/tiny/Mlt4Y

Re: Which team says no? (Pelicans trade idea)
« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2016, 11:51:26 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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RPM seems like a fun stat. 

It shows Jae Crowder as the 23rd best player in the league, Jared Sullinger as the 36th best player in the league, Amir Johnson as the 41st best player in the league... yeah ok....   According to that stat, all those guys are better than Thomas... and Boston apparently has 5 guys in the top 50 (Kelly Olynyk as the 48th best player in the league).... neat.   

It does show Marcus Smart as the 313th best player in the league though... so there's that. 

FYI, last year Jrue Holiday (while playing injured) had a RPM of 3.22 (10th amongst point guard)... Thomas had a RPM of 1.45 (20th).    Holiday was better than him the year before as well.

See, this is the issue with the RPM stat.  It's not the fact that the stat is inaccurate, it's the fact that people do not know how to interpret it.

The RPM stat doesn't show that Crowder is the 23rd best player in the league.  It shows that he has the 23rd greatest positive impact on his team when he is on the court.

It indicates that Boston are +3.85 Points better (relative to their opponent) when Crowder is on the court.  I.e. the Celtics are a better team when Crowder is on the court.

That doesn't mean Crowder is a superstar player - it just means that when he gets on the court he makes a major positive impact.  For anybody who has watched most of the Celtics games this season, I think it's easy to confirm (by the eye test) that this is accurate.  We do play better when Crowder is on the court.

That is also true of Isaiah Thomas, Kelly Olynyk, Amir Johnson.  We almost always play better as a team when those guys are on the court.

The valuable thing about RPM is that it's one of the only statistic that takes into account a players outright impact on a team - not only the parts that are easily measurable (points, rebounds, percentages, etc) but also the intangibles that are hard to measure. 

For example there are some players out there who might not put up a lot of points, grab a lot of rebounds, or score especially efficiently.  But they might be outstanding vocal leaders or great floor generals.  Guys who set amazing screens. Guys who don't have great steal or block numbers, but are great at playing positional team defence.  Guys who are so intimidating in the post that their mere presence scares opponents from attacking the basket.

There are a lot of ways guys can impact a game that can't be captured with basic stats.  Amir Johnson is a perfect example.  His statistics are utterly average and they have been his entire career, but he has been highly renowned his entire career as a guy who impacts games far more than his stats show.  If you watch his games as a Celtic, you can see that. If you look at his RPM stats, they reflect that.

Amir Johnson has only had one block yesterday, and yet Marc Gasol (a guy universally seen as one of the top centers in the NBA) was completely incapable of making a basket while Amir Johnson was defending him.  Watching the game, it was plain to see that he had a huge impact when he was on the court.

You say Boston has 5 players in the top 50, as if that is surprising.  Why would that be surprising at all?  Boston is a team that does not have a single All-Star, and yet has been competing for a playoff spot in the East all season long.  How could they possibly be as competitive as they are, with no star power, unless they had a handful of guys who impact the game more than their stats show?

The RPM stat might be legitimately questionable when used for small sample sizes - like for example, players who only play 10 games in a season, or players who only play 7 MPG. 

But when you're looking at a guys who play significant minutes over the course of a season, it becomes statistically relevant.
Problem with any +/- stat is that it doesn't take into account lineups and replacement players.  Whoever shares the court with LeBron James is going to have a better +/- than the guy coming off the bench with Richard Jefferson.   

I really don't need to look at +/- stats to know that Jrue HOliday (when healthy) is a better shooter and better defender than Isaiah Thomas.   If you don't like the trade idea, it's cool.  I was bored and wondered which team would say no.  Obvious this forum is bias towards Celtic players so it doesn't surprise me that they'd hate a trade that effectively has us giving up a backup point guard (Thomas) and a backup big who isn't likely to be here next year (Sully)... for a quality PG who can start long term when healthy (Jrue), a player a lot of people think would be a great fit as a starting PF in Brad's system (Ryan Anderson), and an albatross contract. 

There's better fake trades to fantasize about.   Getting into this with you would be similar to the years I spent trying to convince this forum why Rondo's role was inflating his stats and why a player like Steph Curry would flourish if given the same opportunity.  I don't have the energy for it in such an insignificant thread.   If you want to believe Thomas is better than a healthy Jrue Holiday, that's fine.   Whatever.

Dude, that is EXACTLY what RPM does account for.
And yet it's still a junk stat that has dozens of blogs explaining why it's flawed.  Google "Why is RPM a stupid stat" and "why is a healthy Jrue Holiday better than Isaiah Thomas" for further insights into this discussion.  I don't have any interest in writing a wall of text to counter the walls of text defending Thomas in a pointless trade idea thread.   

There will be plenty of time for fans to argue about Thomas' value in the coming months.  The great Isaiah Thomas war is coming... shoes shall drop... it will be dealt with then.

If I'm Boston, I probably say no to this trade idea.   I wouldn't want to take on Asik's contract and I'm not really interested in Ryan Anderson.  I'd rather we sell some of these players for picks and free up more cap space for the Summer, personally.

Re: Which team says no? (Pelicans trade idea)
« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2016, 11:52:40 PM »

Offline colincb

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Dikembe says: Get that Larbrd33 Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. trade out of here.

Re: Which team says no? (Pelicans trade idea)
« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2016, 11:56:08 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Dikembe says: Get that Larbrd33 **** trade out of here.
TP

Re: Which team says no? (Pelicans trade idea)
« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2016, 11:57:01 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Those players can't get it done along side Evans and Davis what will they do for us? It's a lateral move at best. It's better to have Lee's cap space.

Re: Which team says no? (Pelicans trade idea)
« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2016, 11:58:58 PM »

Offline max215

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RPM seems like a fun stat. 

It shows Jae Crowder as the 23rd best player in the league, Jared Sullinger as the 36th best player in the league, Amir Johnson as the 41st best player in the league... yeah ok....   According to that stat, all those guys are better than Thomas... and Boston apparently has 5 guys in the top 50 (Kelly Olynyk as the 48th best player in the league).... neat.   

It does show Marcus Smart as the 313th best player in the league though... so there's that. 

FYI, last year Jrue Holiday (while playing injured) had a RPM of 3.22 (10th amongst point guard)... Thomas had a RPM of 1.45 (20th).    Holiday was better than him the year before as well.

See, this is the issue with the RPM stat.  It's not the fact that the stat is inaccurate, it's the fact that people do not know how to interpret it.

The RPM stat doesn't show that Crowder is the 23rd best player in the league.  It shows that he has the 23rd greatest positive impact on his team when he is on the court.

It indicates that Boston are +3.85 Points better (relative to their opponent) when Crowder is on the court.  I.e. the Celtics are a better team when Crowder is on the court.

That doesn't mean Crowder is a superstar player - it just means that when he gets on the court he makes a major positive impact.  For anybody who has watched most of the Celtics games this season, I think it's easy to confirm (by the eye test) that this is accurate.  We do play better when Crowder is on the court.

That is also true of Isaiah Thomas, Kelly Olynyk, Amir Johnson.  We almost always play better as a team when those guys are on the court.

The valuable thing about RPM is that it's one of the only statistic that takes into account a players outright impact on a team - not only the parts that are easily measurable (points, rebounds, percentages, etc) but also the intangibles that are hard to measure. 

For example there are some players out there who might not put up a lot of points, grab a lot of rebounds, or score especially efficiently.  But they might be outstanding vocal leaders or great floor generals.  Guys who set amazing screens. Guys who don't have great steal or block numbers, but are great at playing positional team defence.  Guys who are so intimidating in the post that their mere presence scares opponents from attacking the basket.

There are a lot of ways guys can impact a game that can't be captured with basic stats.  Amir Johnson is a perfect example.  His statistics are utterly average and they have been his entire career, but he has been highly renowned his entire career as a guy who impacts games far more than his stats show.  If you watch his games as a Celtic, you can see that. If you look at his RPM stats, they reflect that.

Amir Johnson has only had one block yesterday, and yet Marc Gasol (a guy universally seen as one of the top centers in the NBA) was completely incapable of making a basket while Amir Johnson was defending him.  Watching the game, it was plain to see that he had a huge impact when he was on the court.

You say Boston has 5 players in the top 50, as if that is surprising.  Why would that be surprising at all?  Boston is a team that does not have a single All-Star, and yet has been competing for a playoff spot in the East all season long.  How could they possibly be as competitive as they are, with no star power, unless they had a handful of guys who impact the game more than their stats show?

The RPM stat might be legitimately questionable when used for small sample sizes - like for example, players who only play 10 games in a season, or players who only play 7 MPG. 

But when you're looking at a guys who play significant minutes over the course of a season, it becomes statistically relevant.
Problem with any +/- stat is that it doesn't take into account lineups and replacement players.  Whoever shares the court with LeBron James is going to have a better +/- than the guy coming off the bench with Richard Jefferson.   

I really don't need to look at +/- stats to know that Jrue HOliday (when healthy) is a better shooter and better defender than Isaiah Thomas.   If you don't like the trade idea, it's cool.  I was bored and wondered which team would say no.  Obvious this forum is bias towards Celtic players so it doesn't surprise me that they'd hate a trade that effectively has us giving up a backup point guard (Thomas) and a backup big who isn't likely to be here next year (Sully)... for a quality PG who can start long term when healthy (Jrue), a player a lot of people think would be a great fit as a starting PF in Brad's system (Ryan Anderson), and an albatross contract. 

There's better fake trades to fantasize about.   Getting into this with you would be similar to the years I spent trying to convince this forum why Rondo's role was inflating his stats and why a player like Steph Curry would flourish if given the same opportunity.  I don't have the energy for it in such an insignificant thread.   If you want to believe Thomas is better than a healthy Jrue Holiday, that's fine.   Whatever.

Dude, that is EXACTLY what RPM does account for.
And yet it's still a junk stat that has dozens of blogs explaining why it's flawed.  Google "Why is RPM a stupid stat" and "why is a healthy Jrue Holiday better than Isaiah Thomas" for further insights into this discussion.  I don't have any interest in writing a wall of text to counter the walls of text defending Thomas in a pointless trade idea thread.   

There will be plenty of time for fans to argue about Thomas' value in the coming months.  The great Isaiah Thomas war is coming... shoes shall drop... it will be dealt with then.

If I'm Boston, I probably say no to this trade idea.   I wouldn't want to take on Asik's contract and I'm not really interested in Ryan Anderson.  I'd rather we sell some of these players for picks and free up more cap space for the Summer, personally.

I'm not saying that it's a great stat, none of these all-inclusive advanced stats are, but what you asserted was completely false.
Isaiah, you were lightning in a bottle.

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Re: Which team says no? (Pelicans trade idea)
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2016, 12:03:15 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Those players can't get it done along side Evans and Davis what will they do for us? It's a lateral move at best. It's better to have Lee's cap space.
I was more thinking about fit in Brad's system.  We need better shooting and defending.  This would potentially cover that.   Obviously, people really like Thomas here cuz he scores the most points on our team.   I'm not even a fan of Ryan Anderson... I just keep seeing posts about him.  There's also still threads about our need for rim protection.. And I remember a lot of folks here were very interested in Omer Asik... but apparently that ship sailed.  And there's threads here suggesting Thomas needs to go back to the bench, because he's a poor defender and inefficient scorer... Jrue, if healthy, presumably would be an upgrade in both areas. 

I would actually say no to this deal if I were Boston.  It doesn't reflect what I'd want this team to do.  But I'm not Boston... I'm just noticing what Boston seems interested in and asking which team would say no.   I don't think fan opinion and franchise goals always align.   

FWIW, I struggle to see the point from the Pelicans perspective beyond ridding themselves of Asik's contract. 

Re: Which team says no? (Pelicans trade idea)
« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2016, 12:21:18 AM »

Offline Future Celtics Owner

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Id rather tank and trade our players for a young guy with potential....Myles Turner Jabari idk who will or won't be available.

But we need to waive some vets after the deadline if we can't trade them.

Re: Which team says no? (Pelicans trade idea)
« Reply #59 on: January 12, 2016, 12:21:27 AM »

Offline colincb

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... FWIW, I struggle to see the point from the Pelicans perspective beyond ridding themselves of Asik's contract.

No need to struggle. They're not paying Anderson, Jerebko, or Lee after this season. That leaves Sullinger, IT, and $47 million in cap savings over 4 years for Holiday. That's a great deal.