What can Brown do for Team USA? Just about everything

[ETNCeltics]

Sigh. Every thread about Brown morphs into his detractors fantasizing about unlikely trades.

[Fafnir]

Sigh. Every thread morphs *posters* fantasizing about unlikely trades.

Fixed that for you! 

[Fierce1]

Jayson Tatum is not ready to be the #1 guy.

Then any trade you make needs to be to the future not the immediate season.

Not necessarily.

Tatum can be like what James Worthy was to the Lakers when the Lakers had Magic and Kareem.

If the Celts have Kemba, Hayward, and Beall, Tatum can be the 3rd or 4th option.

If Kemba and Beal performed the fusion dance they wouldn't get to Magic's level on those teams.

Remember, in today's NBA, the rules are different.

The Toronto Raptors won a championship by simply swapping DeRozan with Kawhi.

Right now the NBA is wide open because the GSW dynasty is over.

They added a MVP caliber player in the place of a bottom tier all-star. I'm all for trading Brown for a MVP caliber player.

We'll find out by January or February.

[IDreamCeltics]

I like Brown a lot, he's even my keeper on my fantasy squad, but he's in the unenviable position of having done just enough to price himself off the Celtics roster without showing any signs of breaking his, "Jeff Green ceiling".   

To complicate matters the Celtics have handled his development super strangely.  Since using the #3 overall pick on him they have done nothing but bring in vets and draft-picks who play his position.  They've forced him to play a ton of shooting guard despite the fact that his biggest weaknesses are his handle, court vision, and passing, and they've had him play almost no small-ball power-forward whatsoever even though that was his college position.  On top of all that they decided after his breakout playoff performance to bench him in favor of Marcus Smart (who reached his NBA ceiling the year he was drafted) and Gordon Hayward who spent all of last season telling anyone who would listen he still wasn't physically or mentally ready to play.

When considering the team's complete lack of commitment to Brown in the past can anyone really see them ponying up the 30 million plus per year it's going to take to retain him after this season?  I certainly can't, but I'm unbiased.  The most likely scenario is them making him a low-ball offer so they can pretend to be flabbergasted when another team offers him max money- and they subsequently have to walk away. 

[Fierce1]

I like Brown a lot, he's even my keeper on my fantasy squad, but he's in the unenviable position of having done just enough to price himself off the Celtics roster without showing any signs of breaking his, "Jeff Green ceiling".   

To complicate matters the Celtics have handled his development super strangely.  Since using the #3 overall pick on him they have done nothing but bring in vets and draft-picks who play his position.  They've forced him to play a ton of shooting guard despite the fact that his biggest weaknesses are his handle, court vision, and passing, and they've had him play almost no small-ball power-forward whatsoever even though that was his college position.  On top of all that they decided after his breakout playoff performance to bench him in favor of Marcus Smart (who reached his NBA ceiling the year he was drafted) and Gordon Hayward who spent all of last season telling anyone who would listen he still wasn't physically or mentally ready to play.

When considering the team's complete lack of commitment to Brown in the past can anyone really see them ponying up the 30 million plus per year it's going to take to retain him after this season?  I certainly can't, but I'm unbiased.  The most likely scenario is them making him a low-ball offer so they can pretend to be flabbergasted when another team offers him max money- and they subsequently have to walk away.

Your assessment of Brown is spot-on.

TP

[footey]

I like Brown a lot, he's even my keeper on my fantasy squad, but he's in the unenviable position of having done just enough to price himself off the Celtics roster without showing any signs of breaking his, "Jeff Green ceiling".   

To complicate matters the Celtics have handled his development super strangely.  Since using the #3 overall pick on him they have done nothing but bring in vets and draft-picks who play his position.  They've forced him to play a ton of shooting guard despite the fact that his biggest weaknesses are his handle, court vision, and passing, and they've had him play almost no small-ball power-forward whatsoever even though that was his college position.  On top of all that they decided after his breakout playoff performance to bench him in favor of Marcus Smart (who reached his NBA ceiling the year he was drafted) and Gordon Hayward who spent all of last season telling anyone who would listen he still wasn't physically or mentally ready to play.

When considering the team's complete lack of commitment to Brown in the past can anyone really see them ponying up the 30 million plus per year it's going to take to retain him after this season?  I certainly can't, but I'm unbiased.  The most likely scenario is them making him a low-ball offer so they can pretend to be flabbergasted when another team offers him max money- and they subsequently have to walk away.

So

They weren’t supposed to sign Hayward even though he was the best FA that year, coming off an all star selection, 23 ppg, because he played same position as Brown, who finished rookie season rather so so?

And not draft Langford even if their scouts considered him BPA?

Smart hit his ceiling rookie year? That statement lacks credibility with me.

Big fan of Jaylen. He needs to make the best of whatever opportunities he is given and generally does. But I don’t blame management if he doesn’t become the all star some of us envisioned.

[droopdog7]

Brown proved in season 2 he could be a #1 or #2 offensive option.

Brown proved in seasons 2 and 3 that he is a great two way wing that can play both the SG and SF position.

Brown proved last year he can take on the role of bench player/sixth man and succeed there.

Brown proved the last two seasons he is an even better playoff performer than he is a regular season performer.

And now, this summer, for team USA, Jaylen proved he can guard the PF and C positions very well against high quality players.

And after proving all that, Jaylen is going to get less minutes and be worth less money because....why exactly? Aren't players that prove all that type of stuff players you keep and pay a lot of money to?

I don't think one playoff run proves anything.  To prove he can be a #1 or #2 option, Brown needs to do it over a much longer time frame.  He has yet to do that frankly.  IMO, Brown is an average #3 at best and a #5 at worst.

Jaylen was the team's #2 offensive option his 2nd year in the league. Once Kyrie went down, he became a defacto co-#1 option along with Tatum for the rest of the season and throughout the playoffs. That is plenty of proof right there.

One season of playing well is not enough proof to conclude that the player is a great player.

Danny Ainge learned his lesson after giving Mark Blount a big contract after Blount had a very good 2003-04 season.

We can say that for Tatum and Hayward as well tbh, they haven't been great for multiple seasons.

This is fair but "proof" can come in different ways.  I question Brown's skill level as well.  So my assessment is based on both the long term evidence and what I see in his game.

Mind you, we're talking about the potential to be a star, which is a high bar.  This does not mean I think he is a terrible player.

[mmmmm]

Brown proved in season 2 he could be a #1 or #2 offensive option.

Brown proved in seasons 2 and 3 that he is a great two way wing that can play both the SG and SF position.

Brown proved last year he can take on the role of bench player/sixth man and succeed there.

Brown proved the last two seasons he is an even better playoff performer than he is a regular season performer.

And now, this summer, for team USA, Jaylen proved he can guard the PF and C positions very well against high quality players.

And after proving all that, Jaylen is going to get less minutes and be worth less money because....why exactly? Aren't players that prove all that type of stuff players you keep and pay a lot of money to?

I don't think one playoff run proves anything.  To prove he can be a #1 or #2 option, Brown needs to do it over a much longer time frame.  He has yet to do that frankly.  IMO, Brown is an average #3 at best and a #5 at worst.

Well, it wasn't really just "one playoff run".

After Kyrie went down in mid-March of 2018, both Jaylen and Jayson rose to that level through the rest of that regular season and just continued on through the playoffs.   In fact, Jaylen actually had elevated his scoring even before Kyrie went down.  His last 6 games before Kyrie was lost included to 20+ games and only one that wasn't in double figures.   After Kyrie was lost, Jaylen scored between 19 and 32 points in 5 of 9 games.   He averaged 21.5 points per 36 during that span.   Then in the playoffs he averaged 20.5 points per 36 across another 18 games.   That's a 27 game stretch of averaging over 20+ points per 36.

And then he again elevated his game in these last playoffs.  He didn't get as high of USG (just 16.4 % compared to 24.6% the prior season) but he still managed to post a very efficient 16.4 points per 36.

I think that, other than the very start of this last season, when he was playing with an injured hand, Jaylen has pretty much always risen to the challenge of higher usage and higher stakes.

[mmmmm]

Brown proved in season 2 he could be a #1 or #2 offensive option.

Brown proved in seasons 2 and 3 that he is a great two way wing that can play both the SG and SF position.

Brown proved last year he can take on the role of bench player/sixth man and succeed there.

Brown proved the last two seasons he is an even better playoff performer than he is a regular season performer.

And now, this summer, for team USA, Jaylen proved he can guard the PF and C positions very well against high quality players.

And after proving all that, Jaylen is going to get less minutes and be worth less money because....why exactly? Aren't players that prove all that type of stuff players you keep and pay a lot of money to?

I don't think one playoff run proves anything.  To prove he can be a #1 or #2 option, Brown needs to do it over a much longer time frame.  He has yet to do that frankly.  IMO, Brown is an average #3 at best and a #5 at worst.

Jaylen was the team's #2 offensive option his 2nd year in the league. Once Kyrie went down, he became a defacto co-#1 option along with Tatum for the rest of the season and throughout the playoffs. That is plenty of proof right there.

One season of playing well is not enough proof to conclude that the player is a great player.

Danny Ainge learned his lesson after giving Mark Blount a big contract after Blount had a very good 2003-04 season.

We can say that for Tatum and Hayward as well tbh, they haven't been great for multiple seasons.

Umm.... Hayward posted 8+ Win Shares in three consecutive seasons.   That's definitely being 'great' for multiple seasons.   An 8+ WS season is basically All-Star quality.   Arguably, Hayward should have been an AS pick in the first of those three seasons as well as the last one.   The problem was his competition in those years was Klay, Kawhi and Durant.  In the 2014-15 season, Hayward had a great season but Durant got voted in despite only playing just 27 games.

[mmmmm]

All the great scorers shoot well at the FT line because they get a lot of points from the FT line..

Um...

Let me tell you about a player that few have heard of.

His name was Wilt, no you probably heard of him.

How about another player his name was Tim, or was it Shaq, no it was Chris? Maybe it was Elvin?

You forgot to mention Bill.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

Brown proved in season 2 he could be a #1 or #2 offensive option.

Brown proved in seasons 2 and 3 that he is a great two way wing that can play both the SG and SF position.

Brown proved last year he can take on the role of bench player/sixth man and succeed there.

Brown proved the last two seasons he is an even better playoff performer than he is a regular season performer.

And now, this summer, for team USA, Jaylen proved he can guard the PF and C positions very well against high quality players.

And after proving all that, Jaylen is going to get less minutes and be worth less money because....why exactly? Aren't players that prove all that type of stuff players you keep and pay a lot of money to?

I don't think one playoff run proves anything.  To prove he can be a #1 or #2 option, Brown needs to do it over a much longer time frame.  He has yet to do that frankly.  IMO, Brown is an average #3 at best and a #5 at worst.

Well, it wasn't really just "one playoff run".

After Kyrie went down in mid-March of 2018, both Jaylen and Jayson rose to that level through the rest of that regular season and just continued on through the playoffs.   In fact, Jaylen actually had elevated his scoring even before Kyrie went down.  His last 6 games before Kyrie was lost included to 20+ games and only one that wasn't in double figures.   After Kyrie was lost, Jaylen scored between 19 and 32 points in 5 of 9 games.   He averaged 21.5 points per 36 during that span.   Then in the playoffs he averaged 20.5 points per 36 across another 18 games.   That's a 27 game stretch of averaging over 20+ points per 36.

And then he again elevated his game in these last playoffs.  He didn't get as high of USG (just 16.4 % compared to 24.6% the prior season) but he still managed to post a very efficient 16.4 points per 36.

I think that, other than the very start of this last season, when he was playing with an injured hand, Jaylen has pretty much always risen to the challenge of higher usage and higher stakes.

People just don't like him, it is what it is. He had one bad game 7 and everything else doesn't matter, I guess. He's also a year and a half older than Tatum, he's ancient. He's 23 (soon) and already headed for retirement, he is what he is. It's crazy how when a person is liked, they have unlimited time to grow.

[mmmmm]

I like Brown a lot, he's even my keeper on my fantasy squad, but he's in the unenviable position of having done just enough to price himself off the Celtics roster without showing any signs of breaking his, "Jeff Green ceiling".   

To complicate matters the Celtics have handled his development super strangely.  Since using the #3 overall pick on him they have done nothing but bring in vets and draft-picks who play his position.  They've forced him to play a ton of shooting guard despite the fact that his biggest weaknesses are his handle, court vision, and passing, and they've had him play almost no small-ball power-forward whatsoever even though that was his college position.  On top of all that they decided after his breakout playoff performance to bench him in favor of Marcus Smart (who reached his NBA ceiling the year he was drafted) and Gordon Hayward who spent all of last season telling anyone who would listen he still wasn't physically or mentally ready to play.

When considering the team's complete lack of commitment to Brown in the past can anyone really see them ponying up the 30 million plus per year it's going to take to retain him after this season?  I certainly can't, but I'm unbiased.  The most likely scenario is them making him a low-ball offer so they can pretend to be flabbergasted when another team offers him max money- and they subsequently have to walk away.

Jaylen did not lose minutes to Hayward.   They both started at the start of the season together and then within a few games went to the bench together.   Jaylen played alongside Hayward more total minutes this last year than with any other teammate.  Over 55% of his minutes were with Hayward.   By definition, he could not be 'losing minutes' to a guy he was playing on the floor with.

Jaylen AND Hayward both lost minutes to Morris.   Morris consumed over 2000 minutes this last year -- despite sucking awful from early January through the end of the regular season (to his credit, he played better during the playoffs).    Going into the season I don't believe anyone projected Morris to get that many minutes on that roster.   But his super-smoking-hot (and totally unsustainable) shooting at the start of the season (combined with Hayward still rehabbing and Jaylen playing with an injured hand and falling on his lower back) got him (and Smart) into the starting lineup and from that point Brad did his usual thing of sticking with his starters no matter what.

Smart, if not having slid into the starting lineup, likely would have still logged close to 30 mpg off the bench so I don't really see him as someone who took minutes from those guys.

If Morris had logged somewhere closer to the amount he'd logged the prior year, that would have meant somewhere around ~600 minutes more over the season for Hayward and Brown, pushing both of them well over 2000 minutes.

[mmmmm]

Brown proved in season 2 he could be a #1 or #2 offensive option.

Brown proved in seasons 2 and 3 that he is a great two way wing that can play both the SG and SF position.

Brown proved last year he can take on the role of bench player/sixth man and succeed there.

Brown proved the last two seasons he is an even better playoff performer than he is a regular season performer.

And now, this summer, for team USA, Jaylen proved he can guard the PF and C positions very well against high quality players.

And after proving all that, Jaylen is going to get less minutes and be worth less money because....why exactly? Aren't players that prove all that type of stuff players you keep and pay a lot of money to?

I don't think one playoff run proves anything.  To prove he can be a #1 or #2 option, Brown needs to do it over a much longer time frame.  He has yet to do that frankly.  IMO, Brown is an average #3 at best and a #5 at worst.

Well, it wasn't really just "one playoff run".

After Kyrie went down in mid-March of 2018, both Jaylen and Jayson rose to that level through the rest of that regular season and just continued on through the playoffs.   In fact, Jaylen actually had elevated his scoring even before Kyrie went down.  His last 6 games before Kyrie was lost included to 20+ games and only one that wasn't in double figures.   After Kyrie was lost, Jaylen scored between 19 and 32 points in 5 of 9 games.   He averaged 21.5 points per 36 during that span.   Then in the playoffs he averaged 20.5 points per 36 across another 18 games.   That's a 27 game stretch of averaging over 20+ points per 36.

And then he again elevated his game in these last playoffs.  He didn't get as high of USG (just 16.4 % compared to 24.6% the prior season) but he still managed to post a very efficient 16.4 points per 36.

I think that, other than the very start of this last season, when he was playing with an injured hand, Jaylen has pretty much always risen to the challenge of higher usage and higher stakes.

People just don't like him, it is what it is. He had one bad game 7 and everything else doesn't matter, I guess. He's also a year and a half older than Tatum, he's ancient. He's 23 (soon) and already headed for retirement, he is what he is. It's crazy how when a person is liked, they have unlimited time to grow.

You forgot to mention how Jaylen is "too smart".

[Fierce1]

I like Brown a lot, he's even my keeper on my fantasy squad, but he's in the unenviable position of having done just enough to price himself off the Celtics roster without showing any signs of breaking his, "Jeff Green ceiling".   

To complicate matters the Celtics have handled his development super strangely.  Since using the #3 overall pick on him they have done nothing but bring in vets and draft-picks who play his position.  They've forced him to play a ton of shooting guard despite the fact that his biggest weaknesses are his handle, court vision, and passing, and they've had him play almost no small-ball power-forward whatsoever even though that was his college position.  On top of all that they decided after his breakout playoff performance to bench him in favor of Marcus Smart (who reached his NBA ceiling the year he was drafted) and Gordon Hayward who spent all of last season telling anyone who would listen he still wasn't physically or mentally ready to play.

When considering the team's complete lack of commitment to Brown in the past can anyone really see them ponying up the 30 million plus per year it's going to take to retain him after this season?  I certainly can't, but I'm unbiased.  The most likely scenario is them making him a low-ball offer so they can pretend to be flabbergasted when another team offers him max money- and they subsequently have to walk away.

Jaylen did not lose minutes to Hayward.   They both started at the start of the season together and then within a few games went to the bench together.   Jaylen played alongside Hayward more total minutes this last year than with any other teammate.  Over 55% of his minutes were with Hayward.   By definition, he could not be 'losing minutes' to a guy he was playing on the floor with.

Jaylen AND Hayward both lost minutes to Morris.   Morris consumed over 2000 minutes this last year -- despite sucking awful from early January through the end of the regular season (to his credit, he played better during the playoffs).    Going into the season I don't believe anyone projected Morris to get that many minutes on that roster.   But his super-smoking-hot (and totally unsustainable) shooting at the start of the season (combined with Hayward still rehabbing and Jaylen playing with an injured hand and falling on his lower back) got him (and Smart) into the starting lineup and from that point Brad did his usual thing of sticking with his starters no matter what.

Smart, if not having slid into the starting lineup, likely would have still logged close to 30 mpg off the bench so I don't really see him as someone who took minutes from those guys.

If Morris had logged somewhere closer to the amount he'd logged the prior year, that would have meant somewhere around ~600 minutes more over the season for Hayward and Brown, pushing both of them well over 2000 minutes.

I already gave proof that when Hayward was out for the season, Jaylen played 30.7 minutes per game.

When Hayward returned, Brown's minutes went down to 25.9 minutes per game.

As for Morris, Morris was playing 26.7 minutes per game in 2017-18, when Hayward was out.
In 2018-19, Morris got 27.9 minutes per game.

Clearly the stats show that Brown's minutes dropped when Hayward returned.

Morris had little effect because the difference from 2018 to 2019 was only 1 minute a game.

[mmmmm]

I like Brown a lot, he's even my keeper on my fantasy squad, but he's in the unenviable position of having done just enough to price himself off the Celtics roster without showing any signs of breaking his, "Jeff Green ceiling".   

To complicate matters the Celtics have handled his development super strangely.  Since using the #3 overall pick on him they have done nothing but bring in vets and draft-picks who play his position.  They've forced him to play a ton of shooting guard despite the fact that his biggest weaknesses are his handle, court vision, and passing, and they've had him play almost no small-ball power-forward whatsoever even though that was his college position.  On top of all that they decided after his breakout playoff performance to bench him in favor of Marcus Smart (who reached his NBA ceiling the year he was drafted) and Gordon Hayward who spent all of last season telling anyone who would listen he still wasn't physically or mentally ready to play.

When considering the team's complete lack of commitment to Brown in the past can anyone really see them ponying up the 30 million plus per year it's going to take to retain him after this season?  I certainly can't, but I'm unbiased.  The most likely scenario is them making him a low-ball offer so they can pretend to be flabbergasted when another team offers him max money- and they subsequently have to walk away.

Jaylen did not lose minutes to Hayward.   They both started at the start of the season together and then within a few games went to the bench together.   Jaylen played alongside Hayward more total minutes this last year than with any other teammate.  Over 55% of his minutes were with Hayward.   By definition, he could not be 'losing minutes' to a guy he was playing on the floor with.

Jaylen AND Hayward both lost minutes to Morris.   Morris consumed over 2000 minutes this last year -- despite sucking awful from early January through the end of the regular season (to his credit, he played better during the playoffs).    Going into the season I don't believe anyone projected Morris to get that many minutes on that roster.   But his super-smoking-hot (and totally unsustainable) shooting at the start of the season (combined with Hayward still rehabbing and Jaylen playing with an injured hand and falling on his lower back) got him (and Smart) into the starting lineup and from that point Brad did his usual thing of sticking with his starters no matter what.

Smart, if not having slid into the starting lineup, likely would have still logged close to 30 mpg off the bench so I don't really see him as someone who took minutes from those guys.

If Morris had logged somewhere closer to the amount he'd logged the prior year, that would have meant somewhere around ~600 minutes more over the season for Hayward and Brown, pushing both of them well over 2000 minutes.

I already gave proof that when Hayward was out for the season, Jaylen played 30.7 minutes per game.

When Hayward returned, Brown's minutes went down to 25.9 minutes per game.

As for Morris, Morris was playing 26.7 minutes per game in 2017-18, when Hayward was out.
In 2018-19, Morris got 27.9 minutes per game.

Clearly the stats show that Brown's minutes dropped when Hayward returned.

Morris had little effect because the difference from 2018 to 2019 was only 1 minute a game.

You have a bizarre notion of what constitutes "proof".

Jaylen's minutes were reduced because he was switched from starting to coming off the bench.   He didn't switch to the bench because of Hayward -- Hayward was also on the bench.   In games they started, both those guys averaged ~28 mpg.  In games off the bench both those guys averaged ~ 25 mpg.   And through most of the year they started or came off the bench together.

Again:  You don't "lose minutes" to a guy that you play the most on the floor with.  That is illogical.