CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: perks-a-beast on November 08, 2012, 01:57:14 PM
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I know it's only been four games and the Celtics have yet to play their best basketball (not even close) But i can already see alot of holes in this teams.
1. The Mental Edge. This is the biggest problem IMO. In the early years of the Garnett era teams simply did not want to play us. Now a days teams like the Bucks and Wizards feel completely comfortable coming on to our home court and getting a W. Ecspecially the Heat. We saw it in the playoffs, they're too comfortable playing us hence LeBron laughing in Garnetts face.
2. The physical edge. This sort of goes hand in hand with the mental edge. I hate keep comparing this team to the the 08 team since they're a completely different team now but one thing that helped us win a title in 2008 was physicality. Teams knew that if they drove to the hoop they were getting clobbered by Perkins. I really think teams need physical guys like Perkins, Posey and PJ Brown to be elite and be feared. The Celtics simply don't have that. Teams are far to comfortable driving to the basket. Which brings me to my next point...
3. No defensive anchor when KG is out. I think last night we were something like a minus 15 when KG was out of the game.no one to protect the rim. I'd love for Darko to be that guy but i just don't see that happening. Doc must see that he's pretty awful.
4. Turnovers. Rondo has to take responsibility for this. He's said he wants to be the best Celtics point guard ever but if he ever wants to get there he's gunna have to stop making so many gamble passes. Sometimes he goes for the home run when all we need is a single. He'll get there.
5. The Bench. On paper we have the best bench we've had but on paper means nothing. A big problem is that the guys coming off the bench are mostly known for scoring. If they don't have the ball in their hands they arent really affecting the game in any other way. They need to know that if someone else has the hot hand and they're not getting the touches on offense they need to impact the game in other ways. When Jeff Green isn't scoring he isn't really affecting the game in any other ways. It's almost better to have guys like Tony Allen and Pietrus to keep balls alive, give hustle and bring defensive intensity, not even needing to touch the ball on offense to make their presence felt.
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Only two:
1) No defensive identity or commitment.
2) Confusion and no clear roles on offense for the bench.
Both will come with time.
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The Miami Heat.
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No quality size outside of KG.
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90% is team chemistry for offense and Defense and puttin gin the work to get where they need to be.. The new guys are all trying to find their way . Part is the players getting to know each other , TRUST each other , and Doc knowing ALL his players and which ones fit together based on who they are matched against.
I think KG is still getting into PRIME playing shape. Sharping of shooting skills IN GAME situations for JET , KG , PP , LEE , RONDO and Green.
Using Defense as a main weapon is new to many players and it will take a while for them to BUY into it and play their hearts out on defense LIKE KG.
I thing Bradleys return , will really help stimulate and set an example to the new fellows how to work at defense.
Bradley and KG's defensive energy is contagious .
Eventually the C's will get their defense together and take pride in making stops.
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Several problems at the moment. I'm most concerned about the offense because I believe the defense will come around more easily.
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Nothing more to add. Just wanted to get 500th post.
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No quality size outside of KG.
Amen. The team's biggest problems stem from the weaknesses of our big men.
We're on pace to set another NBA record for poorest ORB% (hopefully Sully improves in this area - a non-factor so far on the offensive glass).
Our pick and roll defense is pretty bad whenever KG rests (and sometimes even when he's playing).
We have no one to protect the rim when KG rests (at least no one good enough to break the rotation just yet).
Our undersized bigs (Bass, Sully, Green) aren't providing enough match-up advantages offensively to make up for their weaknesses as defenders and rebounders. Besides, with two scoring combo guards off the bench, there aren't really enough shots for them to make a big offensive impact.
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I don't think we have a problem. I think we're playing at the same pace we played last season. We just want to get into playoffs healthy.
Now if I have to pick something I'm going with Rondo's minutes. Cut them down. I don't care if our offense looks like the D-league. If Rondo goes down we're cooked.
Two words
STAY HEALTHY
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No quality size outside of KG.
Please check out every roster on the NBA team. How many have more quality than Bass, Sullinger and Wilcox supporting up their best big?
Indiana has David West, Ian Mahimi and Hansborough.
Chicago has Boozer, Gibson and Mohammed.
San Antonio has Diaw, Splitter, Blair and Bonner.
Miami has Rashard Lewis, Udonis Haslem and Joel Anthony. Lakers have Pau Gasol, Jordan Hill and Jamison. Atlanta
Horford, Pachulia and Ivan Johnson?
Knicks are rolling out Stoudemire, Thomas, Camby and Sheed.
Philly has Spencer Hawes, Lavoy Allen and Kwame Brown.
The nets have Kris Humphries, Andray Blatche and a couple of struggling Euros.
Orlando is bringing Vucevic, Ayon and Nicholson.
Honestly how many 7fts do you see in the bunch? MOST of these guys are Sullinger's (and Bass') height with less bulk.
How many of these guys have more athleticism than Jared Sullinger? Bass and Wilcox might be the most athletic of the bunch. How many of these guys rebound and block shots better than Bass and Sullinger? Not close to as many as people make out. Our Bigs are perfectly fine above average in fact.
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Doc. But he`ll get comfortable with this crew very soon, we will be just fine.
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Doc and Rondo.
Doc is completely misusing his current roster, with poor rotations and bad match-ups, which usually needs to poor defensive efforts.
Rondo, only because he needs to control our offense better. I like a lot of what he's doing, but I'm still very disatisfied by how he's running our team, which starts with the play-calling. Part of it can be a problem with Doc's schemes, but I think much has been said about how Rondo has taken control of this team, so I putting this on Rondo.
He needs to dominate, needs to force defenders to guard him, draw big defenders towards him. He needs to direct players like Green to the post, and so on.
These two things get taken care off, the rest should fall into place.
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Doc and Rondo.
Doc is completely misusing his current roster, with poor rotations and bad match-ups, which usually needs to poor defensive efforts.
Rondo, only because he needs to control our offense better. I like a lot of what he's doing, but I'm still very disatisfied by how he's running our team, which starts with the play-calling. Part of it can be a problem with Doc's schemes, but I think much has been said about how Rondo has taken control of this team, so I putting this on Rondo.
He needs to dominate, needs to force defenders to guard him, draw big defenders towards him. He needs to direct players like Green to the post, and so on.
These two things get taken care off, the rest should fall into place.
1) Rondo is shooting near 60% from the field and 40% from 3. He's on one of the greatest double digit assist streak in history and two of his best shooters aren't making shots. He continues to be the top rebounding point guard. Other than his poor defensive night against Brandon Jennings, his defense has been top notch.
2) Doc has poor rotations? I don't know what your reasons are for thinking that. He has the best 10 players playing the proper amount of time they should be playing. The players aren't playing as well as they should but they are getting better every game. We've shown we can start games and we can finish games. We still need to put together a full 48 min but that will happen over time.
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Definitely Mental Edge as the original poster says. The only guy showing any enthusiasm of any kind is Terry. Getting the crowd into it and pumping up the other guys on the team. Every body else oesnt even look like they want to be on the floor. No one looks like they are having any fun or even trying to put anything into the games.
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Definitely Mental Edge as the original poster says. The only guy showing any enthusiasm of any kind is Terry. Getting the crowd into it and pumping up the other guys on the team. Every body else oesnt even look like they want to be on the floor. No one looks like they are having any fun or even trying to put anything into the games.
Uh, not been watching KG much? He's been as energetic as ever!
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No quality size outside of KG.
Amen. The team's biggest problems stem from the weaknesses of our big men.
We're on pace to set another NBA record for poorest ORB% (hopefully Sully improves in this area - a non-factor so far on the offensive glass).
Our pick and roll defense is pretty bad whenever KG rests (and sometimes even when he's playing).
We have no one to protect the rim when KG rests (at least no one good enough to break the rotation just yet).
Our undersized bigs (Bass, Sully, Green) aren't providing enough match-up advantages offensively to make up for their weaknesses as defenders and rebounders. Besides, with two scoring combo guards off the bench, there aren't really enough shots for them to make a big offensive impact.
Yep. Someone like Nene would do wonders for our team.
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Lack of familiarity and an uncomfortableness amongst key role players like Jet, Green and Lee. Jet showed that his arrow is trending up though.
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Small ball & personnel
We have no size (that plays, anyway)
Of our player with size (6'8" or greater--none are really good shot blockers,or intimidaters (of the ones that play, anyway[Darko]
Because of our "scramble back on D and forget offensive rebounding" concept we haven't ever recently been a good rebounding team, but with Doc's "small ball" we are now absolutely horrid!
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One word: Rebounding.
Sully is the only one trying out there.
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Doc might be expecting a lot more Sully come playoff time. Maybe that's why we keep seeing Bass and Sully. With more game time, Sully and Bass would be able to learn how to play team defense more.
Wilcox's 3 minutes sparked an 8 point swing. Like others have said, he's not starting caliber. But he's legit 6'10 with athleticism to match.
It's much harder to score over a 6'10 hyper-athletic player or a 7 footer than it is a 6'9 slow footed rookie. I have a feeling our growing pains might be because of Sully's own growing pains.
I think once Doc's done with the experiment, we'll see Darko and Wilcox. Sully would hopefully learn to anchor the defense a little.
The effort sucks but when your opponent can get to the rim easy it's deflating. But, again, I think it's got at least a little to do with getting Sully in shape for the playoffs. Better now than later of course.
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No quality size outside of KG.
Please check out every roster on the NBA team. How many have more quality than Bass, Sullinger and Wilcox supporting up their best big?
Indiana has David West, Ian Mahimi and Hansborough.
Chicago has Boozer, Gibson and Mohammed.
San Antonio has Diaw, Splitter, Blair and Bonner.
Miami has Rashard Lewis, Udonis Haslem and Joel Anthony. Lakers have Pau Gasol, Jordan Hill and Jamison. Atlanta
Horford, Pachulia and Ivan Johnson?
Knicks are rolling out Stoudemire, Thomas, Camby and Sheed.
Philly has Spencer Hawes, Lavoy Allen and Kwame Brown.
The nets have Kris Humphries, Andray Blatche and a couple of struggling Euros.
Orlando is bringing Vucevic, Ayon and Nicholson.
Honestly how many 7fts do you see in the bunch? MOST of these guys are Sullinger's (and Bass') height with less bulk.
How many of these guys have more athleticism than Jared Sullinger? Bass and Wilcox might be the most athletic of the bunch. How many of these guys rebound and block shots better than Bass and Sullinger? Not close to as many as people make out. Our Bigs are perfectly fine above average in fact.
On your list, West, Boozer (not so much anymore, but still better than Bass/Sully), Pau and Horford are major impact players that outstrip the impact of any of our non-KG bigs.
Guys like Splitter, Gibson and Hawes are more useful too.
Bass and maybe Sully qualify as above average back-up 4s in the right situation, but we don't have an above-average starting 4 or an above-average back-up 5 to keep them in their ideal role. And further, our one elite big man can't play much more than 30mpg.
Thus our bigs are only really good when they play with KG.
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No quality size outside of KG.
Please check out every roster on the NBA team. How many have more quality than Bass, Sullinger and Wilcox supporting up their best big?
Indiana has David West, Ian Mahimi and Hansborough.
Chicago has Boozer, Gibson and Mohammed.
San Antonio has Diaw, Splitter, Blair and Bonner.
Miami has Rashard Lewis, Udonis Haslem and Joel Anthony. Lakers have Pau Gasol, Jordan Hill and Jamison. Atlanta
Horford, Pachulia and Ivan Johnson?
Knicks are rolling out Stoudemire, Thomas, Camby and Sheed.
Philly has Spencer Hawes, Lavoy Allen and Kwame Brown.
The nets have Kris Humphries, Andray Blatche and a couple of struggling Euros.
Orlando is bringing Vucevic, Ayon and Nicholson.
Honestly how many 7fts do you see in the bunch? MOST of these guys are Sullinger's (and Bass') height with less bulk.
How many of these guys have more athleticism than Jared Sullinger? Bass and Wilcox might be the most athletic of the bunch. How many of these guys rebound and block shots better than Bass and Sullinger? Not close to as many as people make out. Our Bigs are perfectly fine above average in fact.
On your list, West, Boozer (not so much anymore, but still better than Bass/Sully), Pau and Horford are major impact players that outstrip the impact of any of our non-KG bigs.
Guys like Splitter, Gibson and Hawes are more useful too.
Bass and maybe Sully qualify as above average back-up 4s in the right situation, but we don't have an above-average starting 4 or an above-average back-up 5 to keep them in their ideal role. And further, our one elite big man can't play much more than 30mpg.
Thus our bigs are only really good when they play with KG.
West is slightly better than Bass and earns a lot more. The other guys are 2nd or 3rd best players on their teams who make 2-3 times as much as Bass. Splitter Gibson and Hawes are NOT more useful. Gibson and Splitter have no offense. Hawes is a poor defender. If you want to pay two hall of famers, a dominant point guard, deep bench, and still want a Horford or Gasol then you're building an All-Star team not an NBA team.
That's kind of like Laker fans saying their weakness is they don't have Iggy instead of Peace, or Heat fans saying their weakness is not having Cp3 instead of Chalmers. No one will be complaining about our size when we play to our full potential. We have enough to win 18.
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Lack of qaulity bigs and age. We suck as soon as KG goes to the bench.
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No quality size outside of KG.
Please check out every roster on the NBA team. How many have more quality than Bass, Sullinger and Wilcox supporting up their best big?
Indiana has David West, Ian Mahimi and Hansborough.
Chicago has Boozer, Gibson and Mohammed.
San Antonio has Diaw, Splitter, Blair and Bonner.
Miami has Rashard Lewis, Udonis Haslem and Joel Anthony. Lakers have Pau Gasol, Jordan Hill and Jamison. Atlanta
Horford, Pachulia and Ivan Johnson?
Knicks are rolling out Stoudemire, Thomas, Camby and Sheed.
Philly has Spencer Hawes, Lavoy Allen and Kwame Brown.
The nets have Kris Humphries, Andray Blatche and a couple of struggling Euros.
Orlando is bringing Vucevic, Ayon and Nicholson.
Honestly how many 7fts do you see in the bunch? MOST of these guys are Sullinger's (and Bass') height with less bulk.
How many of these guys have more athleticism than Jared Sullinger? Bass and Wilcox might be the most athletic of the bunch. How many of these guys rebound and block shots better than Bass and Sullinger? Not close to as many as people make out. Our Bigs are perfectly fine above average in fact.
On your list, West, Boozer (not so much anymore, but still better than Bass/Sully), Pau and Horford are major impact players that outstrip the impact of any of our non-KG bigs.
Guys like Splitter, Gibson and Hawes are more useful too.
Bass and maybe Sully qualify as above average back-up 4s in the right situation, but we don't have an above-average starting 4 or an above-average back-up 5 to keep them in their ideal role. And further, our one elite big man can't play much more than 30mpg.
Thus our bigs are only really good when they play with KG.
West is slightly better than Bass and earns a lot more. The other guys are 2nd or 3rd best players on their teams who make 2-3 times as much as Bass. Splitter Gibson and Hawes are NOT more useful. Gibson and Splitter have no offense. Hawes is a poor defender. If you want to pay two hall of famers, a dominant point guard, deep bench, and still want a Horford or Gasol then you're building an All-Star team not an NBA team.
That's kind of like Laker fans saying their weakness is they don't have Iggy instead of Peace, or Heat fans saying their weakness is not having Cp3 instead of Chalmers. No one will be complaining about our size when we play to our full potential. We have enough to win 18.
I think there may be some optimism bias here.
Our PG is 3-6th in the league or so. Very good, but with flaws, and unfortunately his flaws may not mesh well with the team flaws.
SG is a solid notch above replacement level, but probably low-average starter (until Bradley comes back and ONLY IF Bradley plays this whole season as well as he ended last year).
SF is a future hall of famer, but he's definitely on the downslope. Still all-star level, but not all-nba any team level.
PF is either rookie or Bass. Good Bench PF/Sub average starter.
C is KG. Out of position? Future hall of famer for sure, but noticeably down a couple notches from what earned him the hall. Very good D. Really regressing on offense. Like Pierce, still all-star level, but not all-nba.
Bench: Terry should be a solid mle bench player. Green is overpaid and unless he does something he has never shown in his career, will be overpaid for his career. some big bodies with big flaws.
I don't think it's unreasonable to think this team could (or should have) rework some assets to get a real starting center, and bring sully/bass as bench bigs. We certainly aren't a juggernaut at this point.
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Definitely Mental Edge as the original poster says. The only guy showing any enthusiasm of any kind is Terry. Getting the crowd into it and pumping up the other guys on the team. Every body else oesnt even look like they want to be on the floor. No one looks like they are having any fun or even trying to put anything into the games.
Uh, not been watching KG much? He's been as energetic as ever!
Kg looked like a corpse last night other then the time Vesey kicked the ball out of bounds
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Definitely Mental Edge as the original poster says. The only guy showing any enthusiasm of any kind is Terry. Getting the crowd into it and pumping up the other guys on the team. Every body else oesnt even look like they want to be on the floor. No one looks like they are having any fun or even trying to put anything into the games.
Uh, not been watching KG much? He's been as energetic as ever!
Kg looked like a corpse last night other then the time Vesey kicked the ball out of bounds
I'd take a 20 point, 13 rebounds, 2 blocks corpse any day
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No quality size outside of KG.
Please check out every roster on the NBA team. How many have more quality than Bass, Sullinger and Wilcox supporting up their best big?
Indiana has David West, Ian Mahimi and Hansborough.
Chicago has Boozer, Gibson and Mohammed.
San Antonio has Diaw, Splitter, Blair and Bonner.
Miami has Rashard Lewis, Udonis Haslem and Joel Anthony. Lakers have Pau Gasol, Jordan Hill and Jamison. Atlanta
Horford, Pachulia and Ivan Johnson?
Knicks are rolling out Stoudemire, Thomas, Camby and Sheed.
Philly has Spencer Hawes, Lavoy Allen and Kwame Brown.
The nets have Kris Humphries, Andray Blatche and a couple of struggling Euros.
Orlando is bringing Vucevic, Ayon and Nicholson.
Honestly how many 7fts do you see in the bunch? MOST of these guys are Sullinger's (and Bass') height with less bulk.
How many of these guys have more athleticism than Jared Sullinger? Bass and Wilcox might be the most athletic of the bunch. How many of these guys rebound and block shots better than Bass and Sullinger? Not close to as many as people make out. Our Bigs are perfectly fine above average in fact.
On your list, West, Boozer (not so much anymore, but still better than Bass/Sully), Pau and Horford are major impact players that outstrip the impact of any of our non-KG bigs.
Guys like Splitter, Gibson and Hawes are more useful too.
Bass and maybe Sully qualify as above average back-up 4s in the right situation, but we don't have an above-average starting 4 or an above-average back-up 5 to keep them in their ideal role. And further, our one elite big man can't play much more than 30mpg.
Thus our bigs are only really good when they play with KG.
West is slightly better than Bass and earns a lot more. The other guys are 2nd or 3rd best players on their teams who make 2-3 times as much as Bass. Splitter Gibson and Hawes are NOT more useful. Gibson and Splitter have no offense. Hawes is a poor defender. If you want to pay two hall of famers, a dominant point guard, deep bench, and still want a Horford or Gasol then you're building an All-Star team not an NBA team.
That's kind of like Laker fans saying their weakness is they don't have Iggy instead of Peace, or Heat fans saying their weakness is not having Cp3 instead of Chalmers. No one will be complaining about our size when we play to our full potential. We have enough to win 18.
I think there may be some optimism bias here.
Our PG is 3-6th in the league or so. Very good, but with flaws, and unfortunately his flaws may not mesh well with the team flaws.
SG is a solid notch above replacement level, but probably low-average starter (until Bradley comes back and ONLY IF Bradley plays this whole season as well as he ended last year).
SF is a future hall of famer, but he's definitely on the downslope. Still all-star level, but not all-nba any team level.
PF is either rookie or Bass. Good Bench PF/Sub average starter.
C is KG. Out of position? Future hall of famer for sure, but noticeably down a couple notches from what earned him the hall. Very good D. Really regressing on offense. Like Pierce, still all-star level, but not all-nba.
Bench: Terry should be a solid mle bench player. Green is overpaid and unless he does something he has never shown in his career, will be overpaid for his career. some big bodies with big flaws.
I don't think it's unreasonable to think this team could (or should have) rework some assets to get a real starting center, and bring sully/bass as bench bigs. We certainly aren't a juggernaut at this point.
I think there may be some pessimism bias here.
PG: I don't think you meant third to sixth in the NBA overall. So, as a point guard, he's more like in the top two.
SG: Our best shooting guard (not the one starting) is well above low-average starter level. Jason Terry is above average for his position among starting level two guards. People are hating way too much on the JET after a couple of sub-par games to start the season (MLE level player. That's an absolute insult).
SF: I'm not going to argue too much there (although, I think he could put himself in the discussion for all NBA third team by the end of the season).
PF: I agree.
C: Old? yes. Out of position? yes. A top 3 center in the league? yes.
Bench: Potentially one of the best in the league. JET's been one of the best sixth men in the league for a long time. Jeff Green is unquestionably extremely talented. I expect him to live up that talent as a bench player. Bass or Sully: solid. Wilcox: Better than many give him credit for. Once Avery comes back, either he or Lee will be a very good bench guy.
Final analysis: Legitimate contender for the crown.
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Definitely Mental Edge as the original poster says. The only guy showing any enthusiasm of any kind is Terry. Getting the crowd into it and pumping up the other guys on the team. Every body else oesnt even look like they want to be on the floor. No one looks like they are having any fun or even trying to put anything into the games.
Uh, not been watching KG much? He's been as energetic as ever!
Kg looked like a corpse last night other then the time Vesey kicked the ball out of bounds
We did not watch the same basketball game.
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Lack of familiarity
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Roster wise, this team is as good at last year's team. Whether they can gel to be as good is another question....but if it happens, I think it will take time. We need to remember how bad we were for the first half of last year....
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Definitely Mental Edge as the original poster says. The only guy showing any enthusiasm of any kind is Terry. Getting the crowd into it and pumping up the other guys on the team. Every body else oesnt even look like they want to be on the floor. No one looks like they are having any fun or even trying to put anything into the games.
Uh, not been watching KG much? He's been as energetic as ever!
Kg looked like a corpse last night other then the time Vesey kicked the ball out of bounds
We did not watch the same basketball game.
^This. Seriously, what?! Without KG's "corpse" our post defense dies completely. Just because you don't lift your arms to raise the crowd and spread your arms to opposite sides while running does not mean you're not being energetic.
What about that technical foul he had? If KG was a corpse he wouldn't have initiated that T.
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I would say that their biggest problem is that they only have 1 starting quality big man. They have a bunch of rotation quality guys, which definitely helps, but other than KG, no one else who would ideally be a starter.
Now, this is certainly nitpicking, because there are few teams that can match the C's depth up front. But, if they are going to be a championship team, I think this might be something they need to address, either by someone like Sullinger stepping up his game, or by making a big move.
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Their Coach. Definitely, their coach. He has been our constant weak link. Players have come and gone, but he remains our constant weakness.
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If Lee and Green find some confidence, Wilcox and Darko are in good enough shape to play minutes and Sullinger can learn to defend PandR and make his rotations they'll be fine.
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donny marshall
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Small ball & personnel
We have no size (that plays, anyway)
Of our player with size (6'8" or greater--none are really good shot blockers,or intimidaters (of the ones that play, anyway[Darko]
Because of our "scramble back on D and forget offensive rebounding" concept we haven't ever recently been a good rebounding team, but with Doc's "small ball" we are now absolutely horrid!
at offensive rebounding, sure. We are dead last, again, at ORB%.
But we are #1 in DRB% right now.
Basically, we are doing a much better job so far this year of getting the rebounds we are actually going after. In fact, we are grabbing nearly 8 of every 10 rebound chances on the defensive end right now!
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quality size next to KG
/thread
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No quality size outside of KG.
Please check out every roster on the NBA team. How many have more quality than Bass, Sullinger and Wilcox supporting up their best big?
Indiana has David West, Ian Mahimi and Hansborough.
Chicago has Boozer, Gibson and Mohammed.
San Antonio has Diaw, Splitter, Blair and Bonner.
Miami has Rashard Lewis, Udonis Haslem and Joel Anthony. Lakers have Pau Gasol, Jordan Hill and Jamison. Atlanta
Horford, Pachulia and Ivan Johnson?
Knicks are rolling out Stoudemire, Thomas, Camby and Sheed.
Philly has Spencer Hawes, Lavoy Allen and Kwame Brown.
The nets have Kris Humphries, Andray Blatche and a couple of struggling Euros.
Orlando is bringing Vucevic, Ayon and Nicholson.
Honestly how many 7fts do you see in the bunch? MOST of these guys are Sullinger's (and Bass') height with less bulk.
How many of these guys have more athleticism than Jared Sullinger? Bass and Wilcox might be the most athletic of the bunch. How many of these guys rebound and block shots better than Bass and Sullinger? Not close to as many as people make out. Our Bigs are perfectly fine above average in fact.
On your list, West, Boozer (not so much anymore, but still better than Bass/Sully), Pau and Horford are major impact players that outstrip the impact of any of our non-KG bigs.
Guys like Splitter, Gibson and Hawes are more useful too.
Bass and maybe Sully qualify as above average back-up 4s in the right situation, but we don't have an above-average starting 4 or an above-average back-up 5 to keep them in their ideal role. And further, our one elite big man can't play much more than 30mpg.
Thus our bigs are only really good when they play with KG.
West is slightly better than Bass and earns a lot more. The other guys are 2nd or 3rd best players on their teams who make 2-3 times as much as Bass. Splitter Gibson and Hawes are NOT more useful. Gibson and Splitter have no offense. Hawes is a poor defender. If you want to pay two hall of famers, a dominant point guard, deep bench, and still want a Horford or Gasol then you're building an All-Star team not an NBA team.
That's kind of like Laker fans saying their weakness is they don't have Iggy instead of Peace, or Heat fans saying their weakness is not having Cp3 instead of Chalmers. No one will be complaining about our size when we play to our full potential. We have enough to win 18.
I think there may be some optimism bias here.
Our PG is 3-6th in the league or so. Very good, but with flaws, and unfortunately his flaws may not mesh well with the team flaws.
SG is a solid notch above replacement level, but probably low-average starter (until Bradley comes back and ONLY IF Bradley plays this whole season as well as he ended last year).
SF is a future hall of famer, but he's definitely on the downslope. Still all-star level, but not all-nba any team level.
PF is either rookie or Bass. Good Bench PF/Sub average starter.
C is KG. Out of position? Future hall of famer for sure, but noticeably down a couple notches from what earned him the hall. Very good D. Really regressing on offense. Like Pierce, still all-star level, but not all-nba.
Bench: Terry should be a solid mle bench player. Green is overpaid and unless he does something he has never shown in his career, will be overpaid for his career. some big bodies with big flaws.
I don't think it's unreasonable to think this team could (or should have) rework some assets to get a real starting center, and bring sully/bass as bench bigs. We certainly aren't a juggernaut at this point.
All we can go by is how they are playing right now. I don't disagree with everything you said there, but ...
Rondo is playing out of his mind good right now. His shooting percentages are all fantastic and he's still dealing out assists by the bucket full. If he's still behind Chris Paul (who is also starting the year off fantastic) it is not by much. I don't see any other PG than CP who is really playing better than Rondo right now.
Pierce is averaging 19 points, 3 assists and 7 rebound every 36 minutes right now. He's getting to the FT line 7.2 times every 36. Those numbers basically show no real decline since KG & Ray came to town. If he's on the downslope, it is a very, very shallow grade. Pierce showed last year that, while he was healthy, he is still one of the _elite_ SFs in the game. He garnered ECF player of the week the last week of February. ECF player of the MONTH for March and again, ECF player of the week to start April. In other words, he was basically the ECFs 'Player of the entire 7 middle weeks of the season'. The problem for Pierce is he started the season with a bruised heel and and ended it with a hurt knee. That has colored people's perception of him.
Sure, he may get injured again. And that's an unfortunate symptom of 'age' and 'decline'. But if he stays healthy, he's still one of the elite SFs in the game.
KG ... I dunno if he's really regressing. His DRB% right now is an ungodly 32.8%. That would be a CAREER HIGH if he maintains that. And this is the career of one of the greatest defensive rebounders of our time. He's scoring 17.6 points and grabbing 10.7 rebounds every 36 minutes. These are not the numbers of someone playing 'down a couple notches'. These are, again, very close to the same numbers he's posted ever since he came here - with the difference being that he scored one extra basket per 36 in that first year here (but he's grabbing 2 more defensive rebounds now than then).
The last couple of games, Green quietly generated 16.8 points per 36 on 50% shooting. So he's not being totally unproductive. Not saying I don't want to see a lot more out of Green. But I think people are underestimating his value. Doc is not running many plays for him so far - he's got him standing outside stretching the defense and setting picks for Terry. I'd like to see him taking more shots.
I tend to concur with much of your other points, though I do think that the problem isn't so much that we don't have quality bigs. I think the problem is that they (Darko, Wilcox) haven't been healthy enough to play.
I think Bass and Sully are both way above average players in the right roles. But without Darko or Wilcox, we've had to put one of those two guys at the 5 whenever KG has gone to the bench. And that is where we have gotten into trouble. That's not a flaw in them - that's simply asking them to be something they are not.
Wilcox looked good in his return to the floor. Hopefully his conditioning will improve so he can give us more. And hopefully Darko will soon follow.
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quality size next to KG
/thread
Yup
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Some stats from the first four games:
Positives:
Celtics are #1 in the league in defensive rebound percentage
Pace has improved from last year an they are the 10th fastest team.
Negatives:
The Celtics are 23rd in defensive efg% and 17th in turn over percentage. This is much worse than we have been accustomed to and is the reason we've lost games.
I think this will improve but the team is having trouble getting used to those amorphous lineups doc has been throwing out there. It will take some time for the defensive rotations to improve since every player except Rondo is pretty much playing multiple positions throughout the course of the game. It will take time but I expect this team to do big things.
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Everything with this particular era (KG's Era) starts with Defense. everything else follows.
during last nite's game vs Philadelphia, i ran one play back in slow-motion several times just to isolate what everyone was doing during one particular Sixers possession. Philly ran a give & go of sorts between the wing and the post where the wing ran a rounded cut along the baseline from the perimeter, got the pass, took a couple of dribbles and made an up & under layup.
why was he able to get to the basket that easily ? simple. because one over-paid-never-should-have-been-traded-for JEFF GREEN was slow to rotate from the weak side baseline, thus leaving the lane and basket unprotected. a high school player would have known enough to get across the lane and stop the ball as a help side defender. it was just one isolated example and Green isn't the only one not executing defensive fundamentals, but it spoke volumes.
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Forgive me if some of this is redundant, but I'm just reposting my thoughts on a Front Page article.
I think it’s interesting that Doc acknowledges a major problem is when KG subs out. I’ve been shaking my fist at the TV a lot lately when Doc continues to spell KG with Bass, producing a lineup that has never worked (even in pre-season). You end up with two guys who are undersized even for PFs, who can’t protect the rim and secure rebounds the way a traditional Center/PF duo can.
Makes no sense, just put PP on the 5-5-5 plan with KG, and spell them both with Wilcox/Darko and Green respectively. Bass and Terry and spell RR and Sully afterward. Simple. I don’t get why Doc is wasting his time searching for something that’s right in front of his face.
Oh well, it’s a long season and these things have a way of working themselves out. I do think that this, combined with Green’s disappointing play, have more to do with the C’s woes than team chemistry.
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It's way too early to panic.
Offense: once Paul Pierce starts making his 2's, we'll be all set. Other things will follow suit and fall into place.
Defense: this is going to take time...time for the new guys to get acclimated, time for the older tenured Celtics to trust the new guys.
By X-Mas and the New Year, we'll probably have the best record in the league.
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Doc isnt good with too many players to choose from.
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Little real sustainable talent. Coaching and Management sucks. DA made 1 spectacular move, KG and Allen. 1 less spectacular move in Posey. Can't live on one's laurels. Boston just doesn't have the Glitz that LA, NY or LA have.
Bird was the last franchise player from Management So long ago it's heard *Bird who*?
I almost give Pierce Bird's status for his performance, durability and loyalty through some ugly years. If he were in War he'd be given the Medal of Honor the likes of Audie Murphy. If he were in LA or NY he'd have > 1 ring.
Boston was lucky they had Red for so many years Coaching and Management. Except for the blip of 1 Championship and a couple good showings after we are mediocre at best. We continually shop the Next to New Shop and can't see the forest for the trees.
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Team defense. It will get better. I'm a little worried about Jeff Green looking so uncomfortable. I think we'll need him to be a player for us, so we should try to give him more looks.
I don't understand the negativity. Especially the last post. We made it to the EC Finals last year and played Miami better than OKC did...that's better than mediocre at best. We should be in the title hunt again this year. NY hasn't won a title in a long time. LA won one the year after us, and haven't been as close as us since then.
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Irrational, histrionic fans.
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C's biggest problem? That's easy -
Time.
I firmly believe BOS has all the tools they need to compete with MIA and the rest of the NBA - but they need MORE TIME.
More time to get used to the new players.
More time for Avery to get back.
More time for Courtney Lee to learn his role on the team.
I expect a few more speed bumps along the way while Doc works this out, but I don't see them struggling into January or Febuary.
They will get this right.
Just need TIME.
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Our biggest problem is Doc Rivers. Eventually you will agree with me.
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We could be looking at the emergence of Jared Sullinger as the 20ppg scorer Doc hoped he had in Jeff Green.
And Bradley could give Rondo's and the whole team's defense a jolt.
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Lack of continuity. The Celtics could use a couple of veteran minimum salary guys who are there for several years racking up DNPs but can step in and sometimes look ok in spot duty.