ESPN: Celtics and Mavs discussing Rondo trade

[pearljammer10]

If Brandan Wright is so good, why has he been at 18 MPG for Dallas for a full three years?

Ever heard of Dirk Nowitzki? There's also a guy named Tyson Chandler there this year. Samuel Dalembert last year. Before that, Elton Brand and Chris Kaman. Plus, apparently Rick Carlisle has not been too interested in playing non-veterans. And still Wright got almost 20 minutes a game, which he has been maximizing the crap out of, more and more every year.

p.s. Good catch above by whoever I just awarded a Tommy Point to, that it's not just PER but just about all the advanced metrics that love Wright. Please don't let baseball fans look wiser than basketball fans, it's just an accident of their sport being less complex that they wound up being first to appreciate the general usefulness of advanced metrics. Fortunately most NBA front offices are almost all caught up.

He's Leon Powe with more length. A devasting offensive garbage man who doesn't do much else well but he doesn't try to do more.

Any evidence for that comparison, or do you describe all efficient big men playing non-starter minutes in the NBA according to a Powe matrix? Kelly Olynyk is just a tall Leon Powe with longer hair, less melanin, and more finesse...hmmm, this could be useful, actually. Powe Shares, anyone?

FYI: I am not totally convinced Wright is going to be really good or even good if he gets played starter minutes against starters. I just think the odds are good. I still want the draft picks Dallas has, first and foremost. Two picks, preferably. Both first rounders. Preferably 2015 and 2017, because as I said above the West is so brutal this year that Dallas could slip entirely out of the playoffs with a single major injury. Bird in the hand, one in the bush, and also Brandan Wright. Not as an afterthought, because I really do think he's got sleeper All-Star potential. But if it were just Wright plus, say, two second round picks, I would be livid at Ainge.

You make your own point flawed by pointing out Wright couldn't get by Dalembert (awful last year and this year with NY), Brand (played only 20 minutes a game) and Kaman (Also only played 20 minutes a game) on the depth chart. He is what he is. An 18 minutes a game player who is great at putting in garbage layups, taking up space in the paint on D, and rebounding at a somewhat but not all the sufficient clip. His ceiling (which he has already reached) is at best a third big man on a contending team. If he comes to Boston then Sully, KO, Bass and Zeller are already ahead of him on the depth chart.

[kozlodoev]

You make your own point flawed by pointing out Wright couldn't get by Dalembert (awful last year and this year with NY), Brand (played only 20 minutes a game) and Kaman (Also only played 20 minutes a game) on the depth chart. He is what he is. An 18 minutes a game player who is great at putting in garbage layups, taking up space in the paint on D, and rebounding at a somewhat but not all the sufficient clip. His ceiling (which he has already reached) is at best a third big man on a contending team. If he comes to Boston then Sully, KO, Bass and Zeller are already ahead of him on the depth chart.

I'd just like to add that he's not a bad player, but is hardly anything to get excited about as a centerpiece of a Rondo deal.

[slamtheking]

If Brandan Wright is so good, why has he been at 18 MPG for Dallas for a full three years?

Ever heard of Dirk Nowitzki? There's also a guy named Tyson Chandler there this year. Samuel Dalembert last year. Before that, Elton Brand and Chris Kaman. Plus, apparently Rick Carlisle has not been too interested in playing non-veterans. And still Wright got almost 20 minutes a game, which he has been maximizing the crap out of, more and more every year.

p.s. Good catch above by whoever I just awarded a Tommy Point to, that it's not just PER but just about all the advanced metrics that love Wright. Please don't let baseball fans look wiser than basketball fans, it's just an accident of their sport being less complex that they wound up being first to appreciate the general usefulness of advanced metrics. Fortunately most NBA front offices are almost all caught up.

He's Leon Powe with more length. A devasting offensive garbage man who doesn't do much else well but he doesn't try to do more.

Any evidence for that comparison, or do you describe all efficient big men playing non-starter minutes in the NBA according to a Powe matrix? Kelly Olynyk is just a tall Leon Powe with longer hair, less melanin, and more finesse...hmmm, this could be useful, actually. Powe Shares, anyone?

FYI: I am not totally convinced Wright is going to be really good or even good if he gets played starter minutes against starters. I just think the odds are good. I still want the draft picks Dallas has, first and foremost. Two picks, preferably. Both first rounders. Preferably 2015 and 2017, because as I said above the West is so brutal this year that Dallas could slip entirely out of the playoffs with a single major injury. Bird in the hand, one in the bush, and also Brandan Wright. Not as an afterthought, because I really do think he's got sleeper All-Star potential. But if it were just Wright plus, say, two second round picks, I would be livid at Ainge.

you can talk up Wright all you want but pretty much everyone familiar with him sees him for what he is:  a journeyman PF/undersized-C that would best be served on a contender.  He's essentially a Bass equivalent in that respect and no one here would be excited about adding another Bass-level player.  I'm not saying he's a duplicate of Bass because Bass is a much better offensive player and solid defender whereas Wright is a better defender but basically a garbage-man on offense.  Wright is not a building block.  He's a bench player.  With his contract expiring this offseason, his acquisition is even more pointless since there's no good reason for the C's to resign him. 

IF we're in a trade with Dallas for Rondo and Wright is part of their package I would hope he's being shipped to a third team rather than coming here.  I'd much rather play Sully and KO ahead of him and in some scenarios, Bass as well.  Any deal with Dallas (and a third team) is about acquiring picks and a good young prospect (which Wright is not.  27 is past the point of being a young prospect)

[Evantime34]

Take this for what it's worth but a poster named Cybex who has predicted moves in the past on the Houston Rockets forum stated this about shopping Rondo.

So this is how this is working... A lot of you are asking how things go down etc.

Ainge is leaking all this to all the big reporters - Amick, Stein, Woj, Spears... Just to name a few.

He obviously has an agenda. He is trying to get the price up, up, up! He leaks the names of these teams so people can put their offers out there and compete. This is obviously his reasoning behind all this.

He really wants the Lakers to give their first (Rox first), Randle, and also Nash's expiring (which the costs are mostly covered by insurance).

It is now becoming more of a bidding war.

[heitingas]

Take this for what it's worth but a poster named Cybex who has predicted moves in the past on the Houston Rockets forum stated this about shopping Rondo.

So this is how this is working... A lot of you are asking how things go down etc.

Ainge is leaking all this to all the big reporters - Amick, Stein, Woj, Spears... Just to name a few.

He obviously has an agenda. He is trying to get the price up, up, up! He leaks the names of these teams so people can put their offers out there and compete. This is obviously his reasoning behind all this.

He really wants the Lakers to give their first (Rox first), Randle, and also Nash's expiring (which the costs are mostly covered by insurance).

It is now becoming more of a bidding war.

if Ainge wanted Randle he could've picked him at 6th...so this makes no sense...and the lakers got a ton of cap room to sign one or two max players next years plus keeping Randle...

[Donoghus]

Take this for what it's worth but a poster named Cybex who has predicted moves in the past on the Houston Rockets forum stated this about shopping Rondo.

So this is how this is working... A lot of you are asking how things go down etc.

Ainge is leaking all this to all the big reporters - Amick, Stein, Woj, Spears... Just to name a few.

He obviously has an agenda. He is trying to get the price up, up, up! He leaks the names of these teams so people can put their offers out there and compete. This is obviously his reasoning behind all this.

He really wants the Lakers to give their first (Rox first), Randle, and also Nash's expiring (which the costs are mostly covered by insurance).

It is now becoming more of a bidding war.

if Ainge wanted Randle he could've picked him at 6th...so this makes no sense...and the lakers got a ton of cap room to sign one or two max players next years plus keeping Randle...

I suspect if this Rondo trade with the Lakers went down then you'd see Danny next try to trade a package with Sully as a centerpiece or maybe even a Green/Sully package.

If you're gonna blow it up trading Rondo, you might as well blow up the whole thing to high heaven.

[csfansince60s]

I hope Ainge does not relent for the package he wants.  At worst hopefully Rondo would work with us for a sign and trade deal in the offseason.

Completely agree with this and hope and expect it is Ainge's course of action. Anything else would be un-Danny like.

At worst a S&T in the offseason when teams who might not be able to give us their draft choices now can choose for us then.

Also, it brings a lot more teams into the bidding, even teams over the cap/contenders, because they would have to match salaries as opposed to teams like the Lakers and Knicks who could just woo him and sign him.

[aingeforthree]

Take this for what it's worth but a poster named Cybex who has predicted moves in the past on the Houston Rockets forum stated this about shopping Rondo.

So this is how this is working... A lot of you are asking how things go down etc.

Ainge is leaking all this to all the big reporters - Amick, Stein, Woj, Spears... Just to name a few.

He obviously has an agenda. He is trying to get the price up, up, up! He leaks the names of these teams so people can put their offers out there and compete. This is obviously his reasoning behind all this.

He really wants the Lakers to give their first (Rox first), Randle, and also Nash's expiring (which the costs are mostly covered by insurance).

It is now becoming more of a bidding war.

if Ainge wanted Randle he could've picked him at 6th...so this makes no sense...and the lakers got a ton of cap room to sign one or two max players next years plus keeping Randle...

Maybe he was after Smart on the big board.

[Fafnir]

Liking Smart more than Randle doesn't mean that Ainge didn't like Randle as a player if he could acquire him subsequently. Rumors pre-draft were that Ainge early on in the CBB season thought Randle was the best prospect.

I don't see the Lakers doing that deal though.

[MBunge]

Let's not kid ourselves.  If all Ainge can get for Rondo is Wright, filler and a 1st round pick from an team whose owner is NEVER going to okay a slow rebuild, that will be the biggest failure of his time in charge of the Celtics, even bigger than trading away Perk or for Raef LaFrentz.  He could have gotten a lot more  if he'd dumped Rondo when he traded away Pierce and KG.

It's understandable why he did not.  Rondo is, in many ways, a special player and is young enough to rebuild around.  You also need stars to attract stars in free agency, unless you simply want to throw the max at guys who don't deserve it.  And no one but the biggest Rondo-haters could have anticipated his offense and freethrow shooting falling from pretty bad to Reggie Evans/Ben Wallace horrible.

But trading Rondo for the Mavs deal currently being talked about is almost as bad a letting him walk as a free agent and getting nothing in return. 

Mike

[Dino Pitino]

[/tt]link=topic=74828.msg1781784#msg1781784 date=1418919760]

If Brandan Wright is so good, why has he been at 18 MPG for Dallas for a full three years?

Ever heard of Dirk Nowitzki? There's also a guy named Tyson Chandler there this year. Samuel Dalembert last year. Before that, Elton Brand and Chris Kaman. Plus, apparently Rick Carlisle has not been too interested in playing non-veterans. And still Wright got almost 20 minutes a game, which he has been maximizing the crap out of, more and more every year.

p.s. Good catch above by whoever I just awarded a Tommy Point to, that it's not just PER but just about all the advanced metrics that love Wright. Please don't let baseball fans look wiser than basketball fans, it's just an accident of their sport being less complex that they wound up being first to appreciate the general usefulness of advanced metrics. Fortunately most NBA front offices are almost all caught up.

He's Leon Powe with more length. A devasting offensive garbage man who doesn't do much else well but he doesn't try to do more.

Any evidence for that comparison, or do you describe all efficient big men playing non-starter minutes in the NBA according to a Powe matrix? Kelly Olynyk is just a tall Leon Powe with longer hair, less melanin, and more finesse...hmmm, this could be useful, actually. Powe Shares, anyone?

FYI: I am not totally convinced Wright is going to be really good or even good if he gets played starter minutes against starters. I just think the odds are good. I still want the draft picks Dallas has, first and foremost. Two picks, preferably. Both first rounders. Preferably 2015 and 2017, because as I said above the West is so brutal this year that Dallas could slip entirely out of the playoffs with a single major injury. Bird in the hand, one in the bush, and also Brandan Wright. Not as an afterthought, because I really do think he's got sleeper All-Star potential. But if it were just Wright plus, say, two second round picks, I would be livid at Ainge.

You make your own point flawed by pointing out Wright couldn't get by Dalembert (awful last year and this year with NY), Brand (played only 20 minutes a game) and Kaman (Also only played 20 minutes a game) on the depth chart. He is what he is. An 18 minutes a game player who is great at putting in garbage layups, taking up space in the paint on D, and rebounding at a somewhat but not all the sufficient clip. His ceiling (which he has already reached) is at best a third big man on a contending team. If he comes to Boston then Sully, KO, Bass and Zeller are already ahead of him on the depth chart.

No, my point is not flawed. Dalembert, in 20 minutes a game himself, was good last year. Check his per-minute stats. He did not suck. He was not average. And, he was rebounding like Dallas needed a big man to rebound or like Carlisle the established-veteran-preferrer thought Dallas needed a big man to rebound. I hesitate to post a link to Dalembert's Reference page, because I feel that would be condescending to you. Go check it yourself.

Also, when there is Dirk Nowitzki, there is not much room left for any other big men, and so the fact that minutes were split between Wright and Kaman or Wright and Dalembert is not really an indictment of any of their play. It doesn't mean what you think it means. Also, you seem completely oblivious to the fact that trading Rondo would mean the end of Bass, too, and you cannot possibly be serious about Zeller remaining a priority over Wright, who would be the team's only competent interior defender. Your evidence and logic is worse than weak sauce, it is not even sauce. If there were an Anti-Tommy Point, I would give it to you. Please do not respond to this, it would bore me silly to have to correct you again.

[rondohondo]

Take this for what it's worth but a poster named Cybex who has predicted moves in the past on the Houston Rockets forum stated this about shopping Rondo.

So this is how this is working... A lot of you are asking how things go down etc.

Ainge is leaking all this to all the big reporters - Amick, Stein, Woj, Spears... Just to name a few.

He obviously has an agenda. He is trying to get the price up, up, up! He leaks the names of these teams so people can put their offers out there and compete. This is obviously his reasoning behind all this.

He really wants the Lakers to give their first (Rox first), Randle, and also Nash's expiring (which the costs are mostly covered by insurance).

It is now becoming more of a bidding war.

L.A. Lakers' 1st round pick to Phoenix protected for selections 1-5 in 2015, 1-3 in 2016 and 1-3 in 2017 and unprotected in 2018 [L.A. Lakers-Phoenix, 7/11/2012]

So if the Lakers finish outside of the top 5 we wouldn't get a future pick because the pick go over the Phoenix, is this correct ?

So we would be basically trading Rondo for Randle and a gamble that the Lakers finish in the top 5 . I much prefer this scenario obviously . Randle is a good young prospect at least .

[manl_lui]

Take this for what it's worth but a poster named Cybex who has predicted moves in the past on the Houston Rockets forum stated this about shopping Rondo.

So this is how this is working... A lot of you are asking how things go down etc.

Ainge is leaking all this to all the big reporters - Amick, Stein, Woj, Spears... Just to name a few.

He obviously has an agenda. He is trying to get the price up, up, up! He leaks the names of these teams so people can put their offers out there and compete. This is obviously his reasoning behind all this.

He really wants the Lakers to give their first (Rox first), Randle, and also Nash's expiring (which the costs are mostly covered by insurance).

It is now becoming more of a bidding war.

if Ainge wanted Randle he could've picked him at 6th...so this makes no sense...and the lakers got a ton of cap room to sign one or two max players next years plus keeping Randle...

depends on who panics first. I think Danny is more of a patient GM. If he were to really trade Rondo, he is going to sell high and not what Jackie McMullan said about selling for 75 cents for the dollar.

I want Rondo to stay but if I were to sell Rondo, I want 2 first round picks and a prospect

This might not happen but I like MCW, but they're not going to trade him along with 2 first rounders for Rondo just for Rondo to bolt in the offseason

[Csfan1984]

Liking Smart more than Randle doesn't mean that Ainge didn't like Randle as a player if he could acquire him subsequently. Rumors pre-draft were that Ainge early on in the CBB season thought Randle was the best prospect.

I don't see the Lakers doing that deal though.

Thought at end it was Gordon,  Smart, Randle in that order for #6 prospects. McDermott,  Staukas, Vonleh after that.

[blink]

[/tt]link=topic=74828.msg1781784#msg1781784 date=1418919760]

If Brandan Wright is so good, why has he been at 18 MPG for Dallas for a full three years?

Ever heard of Dirk Nowitzki? There's also a guy named Tyson Chandler there this year. Samuel Dalembert last year. Before that, Elton Brand and Chris Kaman. Plus, apparently Rick Carlisle has not been too interested in playing non-veterans. And still Wright got almost 20 minutes a game, which he has been maximizing the crap out of, more and more every year.

p.s. Good catch above by whoever I just awarded a Tommy Point to, that it's not just PER but just about all the advanced metrics that love Wright. Please don't let baseball fans look wiser than basketball fans, it's just an accident of their sport being less complex that they wound up being first to appreciate the general usefulness of advanced metrics. Fortunately most NBA front offices are almost all caught up.

He's Leon Powe with more length. A devasting offensive garbage man who doesn't do much else well but he doesn't try to do more.

Any evidence for that comparison, or do you describe all efficient big men playing non-starter minutes in the NBA according to a Powe matrix? Kelly Olynyk is just a tall Leon Powe with longer hair, less melanin, and more finesse...hmmm, this could be useful, actually. Powe Shares, anyone?

FYI: I am not totally convinced Wright is going to be really good or even good if he gets played starter minutes against starters. I just think the odds are good. I still want the draft picks Dallas has, first and foremost. Two picks, preferably. Both first rounders. Preferably 2015 and 2017, because as I said above the West is so brutal this year that Dallas could slip entirely out of the playoffs with a single major injury. Bird in the hand, one in the bush, and also Brandan Wright. Not as an afterthought, because I really do think he's got sleeper All-Star potential. But if it were just Wright plus, say, two second round picks, I would be livid at Ainge.

You make your own point flawed by pointing out Wright couldn't get by Dalembert (awful last year and this year with NY), Brand (played only 20 minutes a game) and Kaman (Also only played 20 minutes a game) on the depth chart. He is what he is. An 18 minutes a game player who is great at putting in garbage layups, taking up space in the paint on D, and rebounding at a somewhat but not all the sufficient clip. His ceiling (which he has already reached) is at best a third big man on a contending team. If he comes to Boston then Sully, KO, Bass and Zeller are already ahead of him on the depth chart.

No, my point is not flawed. Dalembert, in 20 minutes a game himself, was good last year. Check his per-minute stats. He did not suck. He was not average. And, he was rebounding like Dallas needed a big man to rebound or like Carlisle the established-veteran-preferrer thought Dallas needed a big man to rebound. I hesitate to post a link to Dalembert's Reference page, because I feel that would be condescending to you. Go check it yourself.

Also, when there is Dirk Nowitzki, there is not much room left for any other big men, and so the fact that minutes were split between Wright and Kaman or Wright and Dalembert is not really an indictment of any of their play. It doesn't mean what you think it means. Also, you seem completely oblivious to the fact that trading Rondo would mean the end of Bass, too, and you cannot possibly be serious about Zeller remaining a priority over Wright, who would be the team's only competent interior defender. Your evidence and logic is worse than weak sauce, it is not even sauce. If there were an Anti-Tommy Point, I would give it to you. Please do not respond to this, it would bore me silly to have to correct you again.

I agree with pearljammer and fafnir.  You haven't proven any point about Wright.  Wright is not a significant upgrade over any pf we have on the roster.  He wasn't able to break into the starting lineup against journeyman level bigs.  He isn't a bad player, but he doesn't move the needle much, and he certainly isn't someone you build around.