Jayson tatum slander all over media

[Roy H.]

Tatum was 4th last season, quite a bit behind Embiid, Jokic, Giannis, and quite a bit ahead of Gilgeous-Alexander and Mitchell.  Embiid is obviously not in the running this season due to games played. I see worst case, Tatum stays 4th (SGA moves up), but best case, arguments could be made for Jokic or Tatum with Giannis dropping down.  I personally see Tatum as ahead of SGA and Mitchell, also probably ahead of Giannis this season.

But this is not what I am focusing on and I doubt Tatum is either.  The real prize is finals MVP.  That will do more for Tatum's legacy than the season MVP.

It is not a knock on a player to say he should be anywhere in the top 4 in the MVP voting.  Tatum may not ever be the outright best player in the league in a season.  But he is going to be in the top 3 or 4 or 5, at least every season for the next several.  I'll take that.

I'm curious, why do you have him over SGA?  I don't think it's debatable that SGA has been better.  Is it simply the "best player on the best team" argument?

[Who]

I have Tatum ahead of Giannis but behind SGA.

I need some convincing on why some have Dononvan Mitchell ahead of Tatum. I don't see that one.

[Moranis]

I have Tatum ahead of Giannis but behind SGA.

I need some convincing on why some have Dononvan Mitchell ahead of Tatum. I don't see that one.

They have pretty similar stats, but the Cavs have had significantly more injuries and are significantly better when he is on the Court vs off the Court

The on/off differential per 100 for Mitchell is +11.0 while Tatum is at just +2.7.  That is a pretty large difference in actual value on the floor and for me thst is far and away the best metric to use for MVP. No stat paints a clearer picture of a player's value than on/off differential. Mitchell has missed more games obviously but the Cavs are 32-15 with him and just 8-7 without him, and many of those game with him were without Mobley and Garland.  The Cavs would be down where Chicago is without Mitchell while I do think the Celtics would still be a top 6 team without Tatum.

[Vermont Green]

Tatum was 4th last season, quite a bit behind Embiid, Jokic, Giannis, and quite a bit ahead of Gilgeous-Alexander and Mitchell.  Embiid is obviously not in the running this season due to games played. I see worst case, Tatum stays 4th (SGA moves up), but best case, arguments could be made for Jokic or Tatum with Giannis dropping down.  I personally see Tatum as ahead of SGA and Mitchell, also probably ahead of Giannis this season.

But this is not what I am focusing on and I doubt Tatum is either.  The real prize is finals MVP.  That will do more for Tatum's legacy than the season MVP.

It is not a knock on a player to say he should be anywhere in the top 4 in the MVP voting.  Tatum may not ever be the outright best player in the league in a season.  But he is going to be in the top 3 or 4 or 5, at least every season for the next several.  I'll take that.

I'm curious, why do you have him over SGA? I don't think it's debatable that SGA has been better.  Is it simply the "best player on the best team" argument?

Yes, I believe some MVP "points" should be awarded for team success, not the end all, just a part of the equation, and Tatum is the best player on a better team.  I think it is debatable as to whether SGA has been better, or more valuable based on individual production.  Yes, he averages about 4 more points (about 15% more than Tatum), but Tatum get more rebounds (over 50% more), and plays better defense.  SGA gets more assists but probably has higher usage (in my mind, assists can be a deceptive stat).  I think it is a fair debate, I like Tatum a little better, others may see it differently, but to say it isn't even debatable, in my mind is going too far.  I like Tatum better, but accept that it is close enough for legitimate debate.

As to Mitchell, I agree he is really good.  He would likely be right there with in the debate with Tatum and SGA, if he had more games.  But he doesn't this season so I have him behind both.  He has 47 games, CLE has 20 remaining.  If he does get to 65, it will be just barely.  In any case, I think he has been less valuable because of games played.  Maybe that isn't how you are supposed to score, but that is how it is in my mind.

[keevsnick]

Tatum was 4th last season, quite a bit behind Embiid, Jokic, Giannis, and quite a bit ahead of Gilgeous-Alexander and Mitchell.  Embiid is obviously not in the running this season due to games played. I see worst case, Tatum stays 4th (SGA moves up), but best case, arguments could be made for Jokic or Tatum with Giannis dropping down.  I personally see Tatum as ahead of SGA and Mitchell, also probably ahead of Giannis this season.

But this is not what I am focusing on and I doubt Tatum is either.  The real prize is finals MVP.  That will do more for Tatum's legacy than the season MVP.

It is not a knock on a player to say he should be anywhere in the top 4 in the MVP voting.  Tatum may not ever be the outright best player in the league in a season.  But he is going to be in the top 3 or 4 or 5, at least every season for the next several.  I'll take that.

I'm curious, why do you have him over SGA? I don't think it's debatable that SGA has been better.  Is it simply the "best player on the best team" argument?

Yes, I believe some MVP points should be awarded for team success, not the end all, just a part of the equation, and Tatum is the best player on a better team.  I think it is debatable as to whether SGA has been better, or more valuable.  Yes, he averages about 4 more points (about 15% more than Tatum), but Tatum get more rebounds (over 50% more), and plays better defense.  SGA gets more assists but probably has higher usage (in my mind, assists can be a deceptive stat).  I think it is a fair debate, I like Tatum a little better, others may see it differently, but to say it isn't even debatable, in my mind is going too far.

I think SGA has been a meaningfully better Defender than Tatum this year. Tatum has been good, SGA is one of the best wing defenders in the league.

SGA Defensive EPM: +2.4
Tatum Defensive EPM: +.8

SGA is a better playmaker for others, score more points more efficiently, and has been the better defender. Honestly, I don't know what the argument is that Tatum has been better this year, there just isn't one. Now granted, Tatum has a playoff track record and SGA does not but we're talking a regular seaosn award.

[keevsnick]

MVP Tier list, order within a tier is debatable imo:

Tier One:
Jokic
SGA
Giannis

Tier Two:
Tatum
Luka
Mitchell

I don't think this list is slander, becasue i don't think saying a guy is 4th or 5th in MVP in slander. Buyt some of the "not clutch" stuff is a bit slanderous. I saw him murder the 76ers/Embiid, the Bucks/Giannis and the Nets/Durant in huge playoff performances. He's clutch enough.

[Vermont Green]

Tatum was 4th last season, quite a bit behind Embiid, Jokic, Giannis, and quite a bit ahead of Gilgeous-Alexander and Mitchell.  Embiid is obviously not in the running this season due to games played. I see worst case, Tatum stays 4th (SGA moves up), but best case, arguments could be made for Jokic or Tatum with Giannis dropping down.  I personally see Tatum as ahead of SGA and Mitchell, also probably ahead of Giannis this season.

But this is not what I am focusing on and I doubt Tatum is either.  The real prize is finals MVP.  That will do more for Tatum's legacy than the season MVP.

It is not a knock on a player to say he should be anywhere in the top 4 in the MVP voting.  Tatum may not ever be the outright best player in the league in a season.  But he is going to be in the top 3 or 4 or 5, at least every season for the next several.  I'll take that.

I'm curious, why do you have him over SGA? I don't think it's debatable that SGA has been better.  Is it simply the "best player on the best team" argument?

Yes, I believe some MVP points should be awarded for team success, not the end all, just a part of the equation, and Tatum is the best player on a better team.  I think it is debatable as to whether SGA has been better, or more valuable.  Yes, he averages about 4 more points (about 15% more than Tatum), but Tatum get more rebounds (over 50% more), and plays better defense.  SGA gets more assists but probably has higher usage (in my mind, assists can be a deceptive stat).  I think it is a fair debate, I like Tatum a little better, others may see it differently, but to say it isn't even debatable, in my mind is going too far.

I think SGA has been a meaningfully better Defender than Tatum this year. Tatum has been good, SGA is one of the best wing defenders in the league.

SGA Defensive EPM: +2.4
Tatum Defensive EPM: +.8

SGA is a better playmaker for others, score more points more efficiently, and has been the better defender. Honestly, I don't know what the argument is that Tatum has been better this year, there just isn't one. Now granted, Tatum has a playoff track record and SGA does not but we're talking a regular seaosn award.

You didn't address rebounds.  And on the defense, Tatum has the size and versatility to defend both the wing and the big (PF) position.  In fact, Tatum is asked to play out of position most of the time.  He rebounds in the range of a really good PF, defends PFs and top wings, and still is the primary scorer and playmaker on the best team.  We will have to see how the voting turns out.  I predict that Tatum will be viewed as more valuable in the final voting and SGA will not be far behind.  This is also how I would vote if they let me vote.

[Roy H.]

Tatum was 4th last season, quite a bit behind Embiid, Jokic, Giannis, and quite a bit ahead of Gilgeous-Alexander and Mitchell.  Embiid is obviously not in the running this season due to games played. I see worst case, Tatum stays 4th (SGA moves up), but best case, arguments could be made for Jokic or Tatum with Giannis dropping down.  I personally see Tatum as ahead of SGA and Mitchell, also probably ahead of Giannis this season.

But this is not what I am focusing on and I doubt Tatum is either.  The real prize is finals MVP.  That will do more for Tatum's legacy than the season MVP.

It is not a knock on a player to say he should be anywhere in the top 4 in the MVP voting.  Tatum may not ever be the outright best player in the league in a season.  But he is going to be in the top 3 or 4 or 5, at least every season for the next several.  I'll take that.

I'm curious, why do you have him over SGA? I don't think it's debatable that SGA has been better.  Is it simply the "best player on the best team" argument?

Yes, I believe some MVP points should be awarded for team success, not the end all, just a part of the equation, and Tatum is the best player on a better team.  I think it is debatable as to whether SGA has been better, or more valuable.  Yes, he averages about 4 more points (about 15% more than Tatum), but Tatum get more rebounds (over 50% more), and plays better defense.  SGA gets more assists but probably has higher usage (in my mind, assists can be a deceptive stat).  I think it is a fair debate, I like Tatum a little better, others may see it differently, but to say it isn't even debatable, in my mind is going too far.

I think SGA has been a meaningfully better Defender than Tatum this year. Tatum has been good, SGA is one of the best wing defenders in the league.

SGA Defensive EPM: +2.4
Tatum Defensive EPM: +.8

SGA is a better playmaker for others, score more points more efficiently, and has been the better defender. Honestly, I don't know what the argument is that Tatum has been better this year, there just isn't one. Now granted, Tatum has a playoff track record and SGA does not but we're talking a regular seaosn award.

You didn't address rebounds.  And on the defense, Tatum has the size and versatility to defend both the wing and the big (PF) position.  In fact, Tatum is asked to play out of position most of the time.  He rebounds in the range of a really good PF, defends PFs and top wings, and still is the primary scorer and playmaker on the best team.  We will have to see how the voting turns out.  I predict that Tatum will be viewed as more valuable in the final voting and SGA will not be far behind.  This is also how I would vote if they let me vote.

He didn't address rebounds.  You didn't address assists, steals, blocks, FG%, 3PT%, 2PT%, FT%, eFG%, TS%, FTAs and FTMs, or turnovers.  And SGA has carried his team to the 3rd best record in the NBA, after that team finished below .500 and missed the playoffs last year.  And, while both are the focal point of opposing defenses, Boston has a lot more talent so my guess is that teams double Tatum less, etc.

I just don't know how anybody can argue that Tatum is having a better season.

[Moranis]

Tatum was 4th last season, quite a bit behind Embiid, Jokic, Giannis, and quite a bit ahead of Gilgeous-Alexander and Mitchell.  Embiid is obviously not in the running this season due to games played. I see worst case, Tatum stays 4th (SGA moves up), but best case, arguments could be made for Jokic or Tatum with Giannis dropping down.  I personally see Tatum as ahead of SGA and Mitchell, also probably ahead of Giannis this season.

But this is not what I am focusing on and I doubt Tatum is either.  The real prize is finals MVP.  That will do more for Tatum's legacy than the season MVP.

It is not a knock on a player to say he should be anywhere in the top 4 in the MVP voting.  Tatum may not ever be the outright best player in the league in a season.  But he is going to be in the top 3 or 4 or 5, at least every season for the next several.  I'll take that.

I'm curious, why do you have him over SGA? I don't think it's debatable that SGA has been better.  Is it simply the "best player on the best team" argument?

Yes, I believe some MVP points should be awarded for team success, not the end all, just a part of the equation, and Tatum is the best player on a better team.  I think it is debatable as to whether SGA has been better, or more valuable.  Yes, he averages about 4 more points (about 15% more than Tatum), but Tatum get more rebounds (over 50% more), and plays better defense.  SGA gets more assists but probably has higher usage (in my mind, assists can be a deceptive stat).  I think it is a fair debate, I like Tatum a little better, others may see it differently, but to say it isn't even debatable, in my mind is going too far.

I think SGA has been a meaningfully better Defender than Tatum this year. Tatum has been good, SGA is one of the best wing defenders in the league.

SGA Defensive EPM: +2.4
Tatum Defensive EPM: +.8

SGA is a better playmaker for others, score more points more efficiently, and has been the better defender. Honestly, I don't know what the argument is that Tatum has been better this year, there just isn't one. Now granted, Tatum has a playoff track record and SGA does not but we're talking a regular seaosn award.

You didn't address rebounds.  And on the defense, Tatum has the size and versatility to defend both the wing and the big (PF) position.  In fact, Tatum is asked to play out of position most of the time.  He rebounds in the range of a really good PF, defends PFs and top wings, and still is the primary scorer and playmaker on the best team.  We will have to see how the voting turns out.  I predict that Tatum will be viewed as more valuable in the final voting and SGA will not be far behind.  This is also how I would vote if they let me vote.

He didn't address rebounds.  You didn't address assists, steals, blocks, FG%, 3PT%, 2PT%, FT%, eFG%, TS%, FTAs and FTMs, or turnovers.  And SGA has carried his team to the 3rd best record in the NBA, after that team finished below .500 and missed the playoffs last year.  And, while both are the focal point of opposing defenses, Boston has a lot more talent so my guess is that teams double Tatum less, etc.

I just don't know how anybody can argue that Tatum is having a better season.

It is becoming harder to argue Tatum is a better player on general

[keevsnick]

Tatum was 4th last season, quite a bit behind Embiid, Jokic, Giannis, and quite a bit ahead of Gilgeous-Alexander and Mitchell.  Embiid is obviously not in the running this season due to games played. I see worst case, Tatum stays 4th (SGA moves up), but best case, arguments could be made for Jokic or Tatum with Giannis dropping down.  I personally see Tatum as ahead of SGA and Mitchell, also probably ahead of Giannis this season.

But this is not what I am focusing on and I doubt Tatum is either.  The real prize is finals MVP.  That will do more for Tatum's legacy than the season MVP.

It is not a knock on a player to say he should be anywhere in the top 4 in the MVP voting.  Tatum may not ever be the outright best player in the league in a season.  But he is going to be in the top 3 or 4 or 5, at least every season for the next several.  I'll take that.

I'm curious, why do you have him over SGA? I don't think it's debatable that SGA has been better.  Is it simply the "best player on the best team" argument?

Yes, I believe some MVP points should be awarded for team success, not the end all, just a part of the equation, and Tatum is the best player on a better team.  I think it is debatable as to whether SGA has been better, or more valuable.  Yes, he averages about 4 more points (about 15% more than Tatum), but Tatum get more rebounds (over 50% more), and plays better defense.  SGA gets more assists but probably has higher usage (in my mind, assists can be a deceptive stat).  I think it is a fair debate, I like Tatum a little better, others may see it differently, but to say it isn't even debatable, in my mind is going too far.

I think SGA has been a meaningfully better Defender than Tatum this year. Tatum has been good, SGA is one of the best wing defenders in the league.

SGA Defensive EPM: +2.4
Tatum Defensive EPM: +.8

SGA is a better playmaker for others, score more points more efficiently, and has been the better defender. Honestly, I don't know what the argument is that Tatum has been better this year, there just isn't one. Now granted, Tatum has a playoff track record and SGA does not but we're talking a regular seaosn award.

You didn't address rebounds.  And on the defense, Tatum has the size and versatility to defend both the wing and the big (PF) position.  In fact, Tatum is asked to play out of position most of the time.  He rebounds in the range of a really good PF, defends PFs and top wings, and still is the primary scorer and playmaker on the best team.  We will have to see how the voting turns out.  I predict that Tatum will be viewed as more valuable in the final voting and SGA will not be far behind.  This is also how I would vote if they let me vote.

He didn't address rebounds.  You didn't address assists, steals, blocks, FG%, 3PT%, 2PT%, FT%, eFG%, TS%, FTAs and FTMs, or turnovers.  And SGA has carried his team to the 3rd best record in the NBA, after that team finished below .500 and missed the playoffs last year.  And, while both are the focal point of opposing defenses, Boston has a lot more talent so my guess is that teams double Tatum less, etc.

I just don't know how anybody can argue that Tatum is having a better season.

Yep. If all Tatum does better is rebound then this isn't even an argument.

I still think Tatum can be the best player on a title team, maybe even this year. But SGA has been the better regular seaosn player.

[Phantom255x]

It's warranted. Whether fair or not Draymond is right. Until Tatum wins it all he's gonna get scrutinized especially after his 2022 Finals performance as well as a few other seasons where the C's came up short of reaching the Finals.

And it's not just him. Even guys like Lebron had to deal with this scrutiny early in their careers despite being so good. Hell, even Jokic who is loved was still getting some criticism during last season, but then he and the Nuggets went on a run and won it all. Tatum's had some awesome performances such as Game 6 vs MIL and Game 7 vs PHI, but ultimately he needs to deliver in the Finals as well and win it all.

[Who]

Some things to admire about SGA over Tatum

Scoring Efficiency

SGA with a 55% FG% and a 64.6% TS%. Guy gets to the FT line 9 times a night and shoot 88%.

SGA is near impossible to stay in front of in his defense with his explosive quickness. I don't think any non-little guy (traditional PGs) is as dangerous off the dribble as SGA. He is Wade-esque. At 6-6 with that quickness, just lethal.

Assist to Turnover Ratio

SGA has 6.5 assists to 2.2 turnovers per game. Almost 3:1 AST:TOV. Tatum is at 4.8 to 2.5 turnovers per game for a 2:1 AST:TOV. Again, efficiency.

Creates Turnovers

SGA is leading the league in steals at 2.1spg and adds a block per game for a good measure. So 3.1 stocks per game. Tatum 1 steal and 0.6 blocks per game for a 1.6 stocks per game average. SGA almost doubling up on Tatum.

[Indocelts]

Tatum will not win an MVP unless he can show he’s clutch.

Either that or he needs to put up more gaudy stats.

30/9/4 with elite defensive metrics and he can win MVP on a 65+ win team.

If he is only putting up 27/8/4 and not making winning plays in the clutch he can’t and won’t be viewed as legit Most “Valuable” Player.

https://clutchpoints.com/celtics-news-jayson-tatum-brutal-clutch-time-stat-boston-fans-playoff-nightmares

He hasn't made any last shot to win or tie the game this season either.

[Phantom255x]

For the people on this thread who are like "what?? I never notice", literally go check all social media right now. Tatum has a terrible half and it's as if the President announced a war declaration and there's chaos. Ant Edwards was atrocious the other night (something like 7-27 shooting) and it was crickets online.

[radiohead]

JT is a victim of his early success.