Building around Tatum and Brown is a Mistake

[mrceltics2013]

Someone i forgot to mention was Ben Simmons. He was tough to get in a trade, but i think i made it work.

https://tradenba.com/trades/Pw3SRZemI

I take pride with going against the grain in trades.

Why only 5 teams? There are 30 teams in the NBA. Feel free to propose a 30-way idea next time.

If I could I would trust me. I could fix the entire NBA 😂

[Who]

I believe it is a mistake to look at building around Jaylen Brown & Jayson Tatum as just building around Jaylen and Tatum.

If you have two young stars like Shaq and Kobe, you can build a title winner around two top young studs because both of those guys are MVP candidates.

If you have two lesser talents, you need to build either a Big Three or a Big Four dynamic. Or a 2004 Pistons starting five with depth dynamic.

The understanding of building around Tatum and Jaylen needs to be that you have two parts of that Big Three or Big Four already in place and in place for the next decade.

In the immediate future, we also have Kemba and Hayward to give our team a Big Four that can win an NBA Title right now. In the long term future, we will need to replace them at some point. That will happen. And that is fine.

Ainge can create cap flexibility or trade assets at some point to accomplish that goal. To bring in a 3rd star or maybe 3rd + 4th star to support Jaylen and Tatum depending both on their own individual progressions and on the talent level of the incoming star.

[ScoobyDoo]

I think Tatum and Brown both took massive leaps this year. I also think we have some good young pieces around them in Smart, Langford, Grant and Time Lord.

It would be nice to think that as Hayward and Kemba come off we could add one more Max or near Max young big to Tatum and Brown for a long run. That’s how I would try to position us for the longer term - realize there will be some cap gymnastics required to do that.

That said, in the meantime I remain convinced beyond the shadow of a doubt that if Ainge would be willing and would commit to adding basketball players larger than 6’8” to this roster we will win championships in the interim with Tatum and Brown leading us there.

We cannot and should not have Tatum and Brown wrestling with PF’s and Centers in the paint year after year. Not only does it not work, it will cause injuries to both because they’re constantly being played out of position and having to push their bodies harder to do that.

Aing e could fix it this off season, easily.

1. Resign Aaron Baynes

2. Draft two more young bigs to develop for the long term.

3. If you want to go something Kira Lewis or Nesmith at 14 I could understand. Kira or another good point would address Kemba’s aging and/or a solid wing to eventually replace Hayward and to run with Tatum and Brown would be nasty good long term.

4. But then draft two of Stewart, Carey, Tillman, Azubuke, Reed, etc., with your 26th and 30th picks.

That’s all you have to do.

You go next season with veteran bigs of Baynes, Theis and Robert Williams leading.

You have Grant Williams and two of the players listed in #4 above in development for the long run with Tatum and Brown.

It’s super simple - basketball 101 stuff.

Ainge probably drafts three point guard under six feet tall with short arms, moderate athleticism, the inability to shoot but who all played “really hard” and are impressive for their ability to guard centers given they’re all six foot tall.

[td450]

I don't think we have built around them yet. That's the mistake.

Trade Kemba. Get Okongwu and Halliburton. Hopefully keep Hayward. Water regularly, and we should know by next summer what we have. I think they are good enough.

[Ogaju]

I don't think we have built around them yet. That's the mistake.

Trade Kemba. Get Okongwu and Halliburton. Hopefully keep Hayward. Water regularly, and we should know by next summer what we have. I think they are good enough.

Okongwu is not going to last to pick 14 so how do you plan to get him.

[gouki88]

I don't think we have built around them yet. That's the mistake.

Trade Kemba. Get Okongwu and Halliburton. Hopefully keep Hayward. Water regularly, and we should know by next summer what we have. I think they are good enough.

Okongwu is not going to last to pick 14 so how do you plan to get him.

Let alone Okongwu and Haliburton. Two top 10 picks most likely

[Jvalin]

I don't think we have built around them yet. That's the mistake.

Trade Kemba. Get Okongwu and Halliburton. Hopefully keep Hayward. Water regularly, and we should know by next summer what we have. I think they are good enough.

Okongwu is not going to last to pick 14 so how do you plan to get him.

@Ogaju, gouki88

- Trade Kemba to the Knicks for #8 + whatever else we can get (let's say Knicks 2021 first). No need to match salaries. They can absorb Kemba's contract via cap space.
- Trade #14 + #26 + #30 to the Pistons for #7.
- Draft both Okongwu and Haliburton.

Personally speaking, I wouldn't want us to trade up for Okongwu. Just saying that td450's plan is doable (at least in theory).

[Somebody]

I think Tatum can be the best player on a title winning team even though he's not the typical MVP calibre centrepiece on such teams, there have been numerous champions in NBA history who had All-NBA calibre players as their best player (eg. 2014 Spurs, 1989, 1990, 2004 Pistons, 1978 Bullets, 1979 Sonics). We should be focusing on how to surround Brown and Tatum with pieces who're top 30 players themselves (eg. Kemba) or close to that level (eg. Smart, Hayward) to make up for our lack of top-shelf talent instead of crying about not having that generational talent imo.

[cman88]

this post is assuming that at 23 and 24 they have hit their peaks. which is just not true. these guys wont hit their peak for another 4-5 years. I mean how many teams that young lead their team to a championship historically? not many.

lets look at some notable current stars 3rd years in the league and you might be surprised.

James harden - 16.8 PPG
Stephen Curry - 14.7 PPG
Klay Thompson - 18.4
Kyrie irving - 20.8
Jayson tatum 23.4
Jaylen brown (year 4) - jump from 13ppg - 20.3 PPG

our guys are right there or right below most of these guys who become stars. imagine Golden state moving on from Curry and Klay at the time because they couldnt bring them to the promised land yet? or if a young OKC blew up their team because they couldnt beat the lakers in 2010

[droopdog7]

this post is assuming that at 23 and 24 they have hit their peaks. which is just not true. these guys wont hit their peak for another 4-5 years. I mean how many teams that young lead their team to a championship historically? not many.

lets look at some notable current stars 3rd years in the league and you might be surprised.

James harden - 16.8 PPG
Stephen Curry - 14.7 PPG
Klay Thompson - 18.4
Kyrie irving - 20.8
Jayson tatum 23.4
Jaylen brown (year 4) - jump from 13ppg - 20.3 PPG

our guys are right there or right below most of these guys who become stars. imagine Golden state moving on from Curry and Klay at the time because they couldnt bring them to the promised land yet? or if a young OKC blew up their team because they couldnt beat the lakers in 2010

These are good points.  Tp.  But I’m not assuming they’ve hit their peaks.  What I’m speculating is that their peaks are what many think they are. 

[td450]

Obviously, trading for draft picks is complicated and depends on lots of dynamics we don't see. That being said, using Kemba as an asset and with everything else at Ainge's disposal, that should allow us to consolidate and at least get OKongwu at 6-8. I would also love to get Halliburton, but obviously, things would have to break a certain way.

As for Tatum and Brown being good enough, my take is unlikely either will ever be MVPs. I do expect 1st/2nd team all-NBA for both at some point. But the bottom line is the ability to impose your game on any other team in the playoffs that matters. MVP's are most likely to do that, but sometimes it can be done other ways.

Our 2008 team had that different approach. Garnett was not reliable enough on offense to be a consistent crunch time 4th quarter scorer against the best teams, but he provided most of what you look for in an MVP level player, and Pierce and Allen provided the complimentary end of game chops.

It's the same with these two. Neither guy is super dominant, but having two wings this good on both sides of the ball, where both can stand up and deliver against the very best players, gets you most of the way there. They are unique in that they are so good and they don't get in each others way at all.

In the next year or two, the only thing they will need is defensive support and one additional player who can handle pressure and consistently make winning playoff decisions will probably be enough. If Walker or Hayward had been able to provide that, we'd have been in the finals this year.

[Somebody]

Obviously, trading for draft picks is complicated and depends on lots of dynamics we don't see. That being said, using Kemba as an asset and with everything else at Ainge's disposal, that should allow us to consolidate and at least get OKongwu at 6-8. I would also love to get Halliburton, but obviously, things would have to break a certain way.

As for Tatum and Brown being good enough, my take is unlikely either will ever be MVPs. I do expect 1st/2nd team all-NBA for both at some point. But the bottom line is the ability to impose your game on any other team in the playoffs that matters. MVP's are most likely to do that, but sometimes it can be done other ways.

Our 2008 team had that different approach. Garnett was not reliable enough on offense to be a consistent crunch time 4th quarter scorer against the best teams, but he provided most of what you look for in an MVP level player, and Pierce and Allen provided the complimentary end of game chops.

It's the same with these two. Neither guy is super dominant, but having two wings this good on both sides of the ball, where both can stand up and deliver against the very best players, gets you most of the way there. They are unique in that they are so good and they don't get in each others way at all.

In the next year or two, the only thing they will need is defensive support and one additional player who can handle pressure and consistently make winning playoff decisions will probably be enough. If Walker or Hayward had been able to provide that, we'd have been in the finals this year.

It was more of Pierce and Garnett driving the offence while Allen was a "finisher" (not saying that Garnett was a better offensive player than Allen overall in 2008, but Garnett was the 1B creator to Pierce's 1A when it came to creating open looks for his teammates with the ball in his hands). But yeah it was a group on offence with a dominant defence.

Btw I agree with you that having two two-way wings gives us a lot of "lift" in our bid to assemble a title-winning team - quality defence is incredibly additive (you don't really get diminishing returns on having more good defenders on the floor) and Brown is a great complementary offensive player while Tatum is a passable offensive hub for a title-winning team with enough support around him.

[gouki88]

I don't think we have built around them yet. That's the mistake.

Trade Kemba. Get Okongwu and Halliburton. Hopefully keep Hayward. Water regularly, and we should know by next summer what we have. I think they are good enough.

Okongwu is not going to last to pick 14 so how do you plan to get him.

@Ogaju, gouki88

- Trade Kemba to the Knicks for #8 + whatever else we can get (let's say Knicks 2021 first). No need to match salaries. They can absorb Kemba's contract via cap space.
- Trade #14 + #26 + #30 to the Pistons for #7.
- Draft both Okongwu and Haliburton.

Personally speaking, I wouldn't want us to trade up for Okongwu. Just saying that td450's plan is doable (at least in theory).

I don't think my conscience could handle trading a super nice guy who came here to win to the Knicks

[Tr1boy]

I don’t think these guys will be good enough to carry this team to championships in and of themselves.  I don’t think their respective ceilings are as high as others around here.  I don’t see Tatum as mvp level and I don’t see brown as perineal all star. 

I see that DA is trying.  We have all star kemba and pretty good Hayward (when healthy).  But those guys are older and wouldn't be here during much of their peak.  And, that was good enough for third in the east and only half way to a title.  That’s not good enough.

People forget that Washington made it to the eastern conference final with wall and Beal.  Lillard and McCollum have been very successful in portland but haven’t really been good enough.  That’s the level more of less I see for Tatum and brown.

As Hayward and kemba go by the wayside, money could be tight which means that they might just have “guys” around them.  I’m okay with playing out this year just to see.  But if it doesn’t work out, championships will ultimately rely on fliping brown for a true star and hope that works.

Need to give it a few more years to really determine if Brown and especially Tatum have what it takes to pull through under immense pressure

For example game 7 vs Cavs and game 6 vs Heat.   

It took Jimmy Butler a quite a while to be Butler of 2020 playoffs.   He barely took any 3's. Passed the ball a ton (maybe a tad excessive)  and stuck to his sweet spots on offense when it was necessary.   Relied on 2 or 3 sharpshooters for high percentage 3s and an excellent defensive anchor to protect the rim

Tatum this past playoffs improved his passing/playmaking.  But overall still looked lost at times.  Taking ill advised shots.  Missing 3 or 4 shots in a row.  Lacking that go to safety bucket play to stop the bleeding/answer basket

Butler, Paul Pierce knew what to do

In addition,  needs to play with a better center than Theis.   To be able to conserve a little more energy on the offensive end

Next step for the Celts is to surround Brown, Tatum  and Walker with better 3 point shooters and ideally a very good 3 and D big.  Which is high in demand throughout the league

[Moranis]

If you really had no issue trading guys that signed as free agents, I would in an optimal world do something like this (and these trades are rumored or reasonable value).  This is how you build around Tatum and Brown and build a realistic contender in the future and still have an excellent team next year

Trade #1 - Smart, 14 for 2
Trade #2 - Hayward, Langford, Edwards, 24, 30 for Oladipo, Turner
Trade #3 - Walker, Fall for Rubio, Bridges, Oubre, 10

Team next year (cut Poirier, Green)
PG - Rubio, Halliburton (with 10), Wanamaker
SG - Oladipo, Ball (with 2), Bridges
SF - Brown, Oubre, Ojeleye
PF - Tatum, Williams, Williams
C - Turner, Theis, Kanter