CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: rollie mass on November 11, 2018, 10:31:29 AM
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Is it Gordons injury, that is limiting his athleticism?.There seems to be no instability issue and if i remember correctly there was no significant ligament damage.
Is he just playing at a measured pace and not pushing it too early.?
Is he still experiencing pain or soreness?.I mean they have him in back to backs!
Why is he starting and not playing on 2nd team.?
I never followed Gordon and i get it is early days.
I had a serious cartilage operation back in the day and was never right -no stability in the joint, no ability to reverse pivot.Nobody has yet beat the length and thickness of the scar looks like 13 inch crescent.
So i have empathy for Gordon.You can see his BBIQ but he is nowhere near what i had hoped for.
I think he is bringing the first team down -there is no fire, it has got to effect his teammates.
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He got to get his body into NBA shape..seems like he falls down alot..going takectime but doubt he ever be the player he was before the injury..hope im wrong
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My big concern with his recovery has always been that he has never been that athletic of a dude so it is not the same case as PG where you are waiting for that explosiveness to come back. I really hope I am wrong but he looks like he is in good shape but really struggling with body control and balance so he might just need time. 30 games from now and we are having this conversation. Sell Sell Sell.
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At 8 ppg even at this stage of his recovery... Im worried.
Looks slow and shooting at a miserable rate. Is he really just missing shots he used to make or has he really regressed.
Maybe this team just has too much options on offense that he prefers to defer but he must start to remember he is Gordon Hayward and is being paid max... I will give him until January but if by then he is still the same as now, id be very concerned.
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I never followed Hayward pre trade so not familiar with his game. With an injury like this it’s going to take a long time for him to have confidence in the ankle. So many of his shots seem to have just short I also wonder if the leg strength is there.
His game seems to be based on a lot of movement and cuts to the rim. We don’t seem to be a team of passers that rewards that.
Since we don’t have too many options with him we can only be patient and hope .
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I feel like a lot of people are choosing to ignore the fact that he had to have another surgery to have the plate removed, which was quite a significant setback for him.
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Looks like a dude who basically missed an entire offseason rehabbing from a bad injury and the complications that arose from it. It’s gonna take him a few months at minimum to feel remotely right.
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Looks like a dude who basically missed an entire offseason rehabbing from a bad injury and the complications that arose from it. It’s gonna take him a few months at minimum to feel remotely right.
Yep. Ironically, he should be back to form next season - right about the same time IT is.
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I never followed Hayward pre trade so not familiar with his game. With an injury like this it’s going to take a long time for him to have confidence in the ankle. So many of his shots seem to have just short I also wonder if the leg strength is there.
His game seems to be based on a lot of movement and cuts to the rim. We don’t seem to be a team of passers that rewards that.
Since we don’t have too many options with him we can only be patient and hope .
Gordon's not even close to 100% right now. All of these weird floaters and weak layups (where he's getting blocked or fading away after initiating contact) were dunks when he was with the Jazz. His vertical leap is about a foot below what it should be.
I honestly expect nothing from Hayward this year. All of my anecdotal evidence suggests that it takes two healthy years for an NBA athlete to recover their pre-injury explosiveness in the case of a serious leg/foot/ankle injury (see Rondo, Rose, PG13, etc.)
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I never followed Hayward pre trade so not familiar with his game. With an injury like this it’s going to take a long time for him to have confidence in the ankle. So many of his shots seem to have just short I also wonder if the leg strength is there.
His game seems to be based on a lot of movement and cuts to the rim. We don’t seem to be a team of passers that rewards that.
Since we don’t have too many options with him we can only be patient and hope .
Gordon's not even close to 100% right now. All of these weird floaters and weak layups (where he's getting blocked or fading away after initiating contact) were dunks when he was with the Jazz. His vertical leap is about a foot below what it should be.
I honestly expect nothing from Hayward this year. All of my anecdotal evidence suggests that it takes two healthy years for an NBA athlete to recover their pre-injury explosiveness in the case of a serious leg/foot/ankle injury (see Rondo, Rose, PG13, etc.)
I agree with you. As horrific as the injury was to watch, it has been even more difficult to accept that it derailed Hayward's career and cost the Celtics a title shot.
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I never followed Hayward pre trade so not familiar with his game. With an injury like this it’s going to take a long time for him to have confidence in the ankle. So many of his shots seem to have just short I also wonder if the leg strength is there.
His game seems to be based on a lot of movement and cuts to the rim. We don’t seem to be a team of passers that rewards that.
Since we don’t have too many options with him we can only be patient and hope .
Gordon's not even close to 100% right now. All of these weird floaters and weak layups (where he's getting blocked or fading away after initiating contact) were dunks when he was with the Jazz. His vertical leap is about a foot below what it should be.
I honestly expect nothing from Hayward this year. All of my anecdotal evidence suggests that it takes two healthy years for an NBA athlete to recover their pre-injury explosiveness in the case of a serious leg/foot/ankle injury (see Rondo, Rose, PG13, etc.)
I agree with you. As horrific as the injury was to watch, it has been even more difficult to accept that it derailed Hayward's career and cost the Celtics a title shot.
Hahahaha. Just nonsensical at this stage man. No longer bait, just thrown the whole rod in.
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The few anecdotes highlighted are indicative of what boat he has been marooned for the foreseeable future. Looking closely at Paul George's recovery will continue to show the parallel we'll likely see unfold for Gordon. One would hope that hindsight could help the Celtics make a more suitable decision with his continued readjustment but so far those positive sentiments have fallen. It becomes a case of 'pride comes before a fall' as the Celtics resist demoting Gordon, which is somewhat ironic.
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I posted this on the "Gordon Hayward needs to be sent to the G-League" thread, it's a comparison of PG13 and GH on their returns from their injuries.
Paul George suffered his injury Aug 2014 and missed all but 6 games of the 2014-15 season. He then had an offseason to continue to recover. Here were his stats on returning:
Rk G Date Age Tm Opp GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS GmSc +/-
77 1 2015-04-05 24-338 IND MIA W (+23) 0 14:34 5 12 .417 3 6 .500 0 0 0 2 2 2 2 0 3 3 13 6.4 +12
78 2 2015-04-08 24-341 IND @ NYK W (+16) 0 15:31 2 7 .286 1 3 .333 5 6 .833 0 3 3 0 2 0 2 1 10 6.0 +5
79 3 2015-04-10 24-343 IND @ DET W (+4) 0 13:54 3 6 .500 2 3 .667 2 2 1.000 0 4 4 2 0 0 2 0 10 7.6 +1
80 4 2015-04-12 24-345 IND OKC W (+12) 0 14:09 3 9 .333 1 4 .250 1 2 .500 3 3 6 1 0 0 1 2 8 4.4 -3
81 5 2015-04-14 24-347 IND WAS W (+4) 0 17:46 4 10 .400 2 4 .500 0 1 .000 0 3 3 0 1 1 2 0 10 4.8 +1
82 6 2015-04-15 24-348 IND @ MEM L (-12) 0 15:01 1 5 .200 0 2 .000 0 0 1 3 4 1 0 0 2 5 2 -2.8 -1
George then had another offseason to work on his game and recover.
Here are Hayward's numbers in his 10 games on returning:
Rk G Date Age Tm Opp GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS GmSc +/-
1 1 2018-10-16 28-207 BOS PHI W (+18) 1 24:37 4 12 .333 1 3 .333 1 2 .500 2 3 5 0 4 0 0 1 10 8.7 +10
2 2 2018-10-19 28-210 BOS @ TOR L (-12) 1 24:17 6 13 .462 1 3 .333 1 1 1.000 2 5 7 2 1 0 1 0 14 11.6 -11
3 2018-10-20 28-211 BOS @ NYK W (+2) Inactive
4 3 2018-10-22 28-213 BOS ORL L (-3) 1 24:56 4 8 .500 3 5 .600 0 0 0 4 4 3 1 0 2 3 11 8.1 -1
5 4 2018-10-25 28-216 BOS @ OKC W (+6) 1 23:41 1 5 .200 1 4 .250 2 4 .500 0 7 7 1 0 0 2 3 5 0.7 -13
6 5 2018-10-27 28-218 BOS @ DET W (+20) 1 23:41 6 11 .545 2 5 .400 1 3 .333 0 5 5 1 1 0 3 3 15 7.9 +18
7 6 2018-10-30 28-221 BOS DET W (+3) 1 25:53 3 10 .300 0 2 .000 0 0 1 3 4 3 0 0 1 0 6 2.9 -1
8 7 2018-11-01 28-223 BOS MIL W (+4) 1 26:38 6 11 .545 3 5 .600 3 3 1.000 2 2 4 5 0 1 1 1 18 17.5 +4
9 8 2018-11-03 28-225 BOS @ IND L (-1) 1 25:42 2 10 .200 0 5 .000 0 0 2 5 7 3 1 2 1 3 4 3.0 -9
10 9 2018-11-05 28-227 BOS @ DEN L (-8) 1 25:52 3 7 .429 0 2 .000 2 2 1.000 1 8 9 2 0 0 1 2 8 7.0 +4
11 10 2018-11-08 28-230 BOS @ PHO W (+7) 1 24:54 3 8 .375 2 5 .400 0 0 0 4 4 2 0 0 0 1 8 5.8 0
12 11 2018-11-09 28-231 BOS @ UTA L (-8) 1 25:40 3 9 .333 1 5 .200 6 6 1.000 0 1 1 7 1 0 1 3 13 11.9 -8
As you can see not too different. Keep in mind Hayward had a second surgery just before the end of last season. I think it's a little unfair to Hayward to expect him to be his All-Star form immediately upon returning. I wouldn't be surprised if it took him till December to look remotely like his old self again. Right now he's finding ways to contribute by facilitating and initiating plays and hitting the boards.
But if you want to be really harsh and realistic about it like many here, we obviously haven't gotten our return on investment on him. But he's not the only one - the team as a whole is shooting 42% from the floor and 41% of our shot attempts are from 3 - that's the kind of stat that is great when you're hitting them but bad when you're only hitting 35% of them.
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I never followed Hayward pre trade so not familiar with his game. With an injury like this it’s going to take a long time for him to have confidence in the ankle. So many of his shots seem to have just short I also wonder if the leg strength is there.
His game seems to be based on a lot of movement and cuts to the rim. We don’t seem to be a team of passers that rewards that.
Since we don’t have too many options with him we can only be patient and hope .
Gordon's not even close to 100% right now. All of these weird floaters and weak layups (where he's getting blocked or fading away after initiating contact) were dunks when he was with the Jazz. His vertical leap is about a foot below what it should be.
I honestly expect nothing from Hayward this year. All of my anecdotal evidence suggests that it takes two healthy years for an NBA athlete to recover their pre-injury explosiveness in the case of a serious leg/foot/ankle injury (see Rondo, Rose, PG13, etc.)
I agree with you. As horrific as the injury was to watch, it has been even more difficult to accept that it derailed Hayward's career and cost the Celtics a title shot.
Hahahaha. Just nonsensical at this stage man. No longer bait, just thrown the whole rod in.
Not sure what you feel is nonsensical about this statement...
The Celtics went to game 7 of the ECF without Hayward playing at all last season... I think it's pretty reasonable to project them in the Finals with him healthy and 100%.
Even the most optomistic posters are saying he shouldn't be expected to be 100% until next season (when he'll be 30 years old). I'm not sure how losing two years of your prime to injuries ISN'T having your career derailed?...
Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but I encourage you to please reconsider before postiing inflammatory remarks and personal attacks on these boards.
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You wonder if Gordon will be happy here if it turns out that Tatum is very clearly our second best scorer (and maybe player overall) by the time all this smoke clears. I think Hayward would be ok as a role player on this team but I think it will be tough.
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lack of agressivness. He didn't forget to play, he's just still not comfortable. Question is only if he is gonna feel that again?
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You wonder if Gordon will be happy here if it turns out that Tatum is very clearly our second best scorer (and maybe player overall) by the time all this smoke clears. I think Hayward would be ok as a role player on this team but I think it will be tough.
You don't pay role players $30 million a season. Right now they have to suck it up and ease him back. The fact that Brad continues to give him 25 mpg, has him on the floor at crunch time and had him play back to backs last week to me indicates that all is sound healthwise and they just need to be patient with him.
Personally I think he's getting more comfortable and his athleticism is about where it probably should be given that he had 2 surgeries. I just think his timing is way off still. He's been missing shots he normally makes. His D I thought was weak over the first few games but has been improving.
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You wonder if Gordon will be happy here if it turns out that Tatum is very clearly our second best scorer (and maybe player overall) by the time all this smoke clears. I think Hayward would be ok as a role player on this team but I think it will be tough.
How about we actually let Tatum develop into that type of player instead of just declaring him the 2nd best anything. His shot selection is terrible this season and his defense has regressed. Is a super talented? Absolutely. But I think all the hype has gotten to him.
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mean while back at the ranch , Celtics are a sinking ship
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You wonder if Gordon will be happy here if it turns out that Tatum is very clearly our second best scorer (and maybe player overall) by the time all this smoke clears. I think Hayward would be ok as a role player on this team but I think it will be tough.
How about we actually let Tatum develop into that type of player instead of just declaring him the 2nd best anything. His shot selection is terrible this season and his defense has regressed. Is a super talented? Absolutely. But I think all the hype has gotten to him.
People after one game declaring that this was Tatum's team already comes to mind, lol.
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I'm not declaring anything, this is just a 'what if?' more than anything else and speaks more to the depth of this team. If playoff Tatum starts emerging while Hayward continues to come back from his injury I'm just saying there could be more struggles to figure out who fits in where and what's the best direction to take the team.
It's just interesting that when Hayward signed with us he thought he was going to be the star of this team next to IT. Then the Kyrie trade happened, then the Hayward ankle injury happened letting Tatum and Brown develop at an accelerated pace. Then Kyrie went out for the season leading to Tatum and Brown (and Horford/Rozier) leading the Celts to the ECF. Also Tatum scoring 20+ points in many consecutive playoff games as a 20 y/o rookie (can't remember exactly how many games).
So at this point the pecking order isn't so obvious, especially by the end of the season.
You wonder if Gordon will be happy here if it turns out that Tatum is very clearly our second best scorer (and maybe player overall) by the time all this smoke clears. I think Hayward would be ok as a role player on this team but I think it will be tough.
How about we actually let Tatum develop into that type of player instead of just declaring him the 2nd best anything. His shot selection is terrible this season and his defense has regressed. Is a super talented? Absolutely. But I think all the hype has gotten to him.
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You wonder if Gordon will be happy here if it turns out that Tatum is very clearly our second best scorer (and maybe player overall) by the time all this smoke clears. I think Hayward would be ok as a role player on this team but I think it will be tough.
If it comes to that, and he's not happy, then I'm sure he will have to deal with it or be moved. Just the way things are in the NBA.
You wonder if Gordon will be happy here if it turns out that Tatum is very clearly our second best scorer (and maybe player overall) by the time all this smoke clears. I think Hayward would be ok as a role player on this team but I think it will be tough.
How about we actually let Tatum develop into that type of player instead of just declaring him the 2nd best anything. His shot selection is terrible this season and his defense has regressed. Is a super talented? Absolutely. But I think all the hype has gotten to him.
Just like any rookie he's inconsistent. In 13 games this season he's scored:
20+ pts - 5 times with a high score of 27
15 - 20 pts - 3 times
10 - 14 pts - 2 times
Less than 10 - 3 times with a low of 4
Pretty big standard deviation there. He just needs to learn to be more consistent, that's what separates the good players from the really good and great ones. You can rely on them to be money every night.
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The tough thing to balance is that to beat Toronto, Milwaukee, maybe Philly now, and definitely Golden State is that we really need our current players playing at a high level; for Hayward that means at least 85% of his former all around self; right now he is well below that on defense and shooting/scoring. So the trick is balancing what will help speed him back to better effectiveness while balancing playoff seeding, development of Brown, Tatum, Rozier, as well as avoiding resentment from those guys as they see this 60% imitation of a player taking up their shots and playing time, and crunch time. We will see. I'm sure Brad has a plan. But perhaps if there is not obvious improvement from Hayward by game 20, maybe he goes to the bench, takes a 20% reduction in playing time, and Smart slots into the starting lineup, with Brown and Tatum getting more creating chances.
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You wonder if Gordon will be happy here if it turns out that Tatum is very clearly our second best scorer (and maybe player overall) by the time all this smoke clears. I think Hayward would be ok as a role player on this team but I think it will be tough.
If it comes to that, and he's not happy, then I'm sure he will have to deal with it or be moved. Just the way things are in the NBA.
You wonder if Gordon will be happy here if it turns out that Tatum is very clearly our second best scorer (and maybe player overall) by the time all this smoke clears. I think Hayward would be ok as a role player on this team but I think it will be tough.
How about we actually let Tatum develop into that type of player instead of just declaring him the 2nd best anything. His shot selection is terrible this season and his defense has regressed. Is a super talented? Absolutely. But I think all the hype has gotten to him.
Just like any rookie he's inconsistent. In 13 games this season he's scored:
20+ pts - 5 times with a high score of 27
15 - 20 pts - 3 times
10 - 14 pts - 2 times
Less than 10 - 3 times with a low of 4
Pretty big standard deviation there. He just needs to learn to be more consistent, that's what separates the good players from the really good and great ones. You can rely on them to be money every night.
But he's not a rookie.
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mean while back at the ranch , Celtics are a sinking ship
Not for tonight. Gino was a sight for sore eyes. The Bulls are a tomato can, and we did what we’re supposed to. Next! More!!
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mean while back at the ranch , Celtics are a sinking ship
Not for tonight. Gino was a sight for sore eyes. The Bulls are a tomato can, and we did what we’re supposed to. Next! More!!
Playing as expected is such a refreshing sight
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You wonder if Gordon will be happy here if it turns out that Tatum is very clearly our second best scorer (and maybe player overall) by the time all this smoke clears. I think Hayward would be ok as a role player on this team but I think it will be tough.
If it comes to that, and he's not happy, then I'm sure he will have to deal with it or be moved. Just the way things are in the NBA.
You wonder if Gordon will be happy here if it turns out that Tatum is very clearly our second best scorer (and maybe player overall) by the time all this smoke clears. I think Hayward would be ok as a role player on this team but I think it will be tough.
How about we actually let Tatum develop into that type of player instead of just declaring him the 2nd best anything. His shot selection is terrible this season and his defense has regressed. Is a super talented? Absolutely. But I think all the hype has gotten to him.
Just like any rookie he's inconsistent. In 13 games this season he's scored:
20+ pts - 5 times with a high score of 27
15 - 20 pts - 3 times
10 - 14 pts - 2 times
Less than 10 - 3 times with a low of 4
Pretty big standard deviation there. He just needs to learn to be more consistent, that's what separates the good players from the really good and great ones. You can rely on them to be money every night.
But he's not a rookie.
I meant to say player coming off his rookie year
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He just looks out of basketball shape. Not being able to play 5-on-5 for an entire year, the majority of which you couldn’t run at all, will take anyone out of game shape.
People tend to overlook the second surgery and how that set him back even further.
I think it’s a combination of mental (even his free throws are lowest since rookie year) and being out of NBA shape. While I did not watch him regularly in Utah, I saw him just about every game he played against us and I don’t recall him looking routinely winded like he does now.
People can knock his athleticism right now. But supposedly the guy was capable of being a professional tennis player, he was that good.
He will get there, people need to be patient. He hasn’t even been playing NBA basketball for a month, and he still doesn’t have his regular PT to get into rhythm. Thought it was good to get him in there in garbage time to run the offense for a bit.
He even said his explosiveness wasn’t there to start the season, it’ll get there.
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He just looks out of basketball shape. Not being able to play 5-on-5 for an entire year, the majority of which you couldn’t run at all, will take anyone out of game shape.
People tend to overlook the second surgery and how that set him back even further.
I think it’s a combination of mental (even his free throws are lowest since rookie year) and being out of NBA shape. While I did not watch him regularly in Utah, I saw him just about every game he played against us and I don’t recall him looking routinely winded like he does now.
People can knock his athleticism right now. But supposedly the guy was capable of being a professional tennis player, he was that good.
He will get there, people need to be patient. He hasn’t even been playing NBA basketball for a month, and he still doesn’t have his regular PT to get into rhythm. Thought it was good to get him in there in garbage time to run the offense for a bit.
He even said his explosiveness wasn’t there to start the season, it’ll get there.
He's also been taken off his minutes restriction. I'm sure that was frustrating given he probably had to play shorter spells. Well he will get his chance to settle in hopefully since we're playing lottery teams for the most part for the next couple of weeks.
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Brad is trying to get Hayward healthy but he is really hard to watch as his teammates keep playing like it's OK.At this point he can drive and kick it out or be a play maker-he doesn't trust getting caught in air on offense-i have been there -the vulnerability and potential of landing on a foot.He can't hit three's ,blows layups
It is sad to watch and his teammates endure knowing it's a process but if you can't trust him for a corner three or a break away or a backdoor cut.Instinct suffers, as you have to think not just react.And there goes the timing and chemistry.